0:00

This episode of Beautiful Anonymous is brought to

0:02

you by Progressive. Most of you aren't

0:05

just listening right now. You're driving,

0:07

cleaning, and even exercising. But

0:09

what if you could be saving money by switching to Progressive?

0:13

Drivers who save by switching save nearly $1,700 on

0:16

average, and auto customers qualify

0:18

for an average of seven discounts. Multitask

0:21

right now. Quote today at Progressive.com.

0:25

Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, national

0:28

average 12-month savings of $698

0:31

by new customers surveyed who saved with

0:33

Progressive between June 2021 and May Potential

0:36

savings will vary. Discounts not available

0:39

in all states and situations.

0:43

Some people like to just quickly stock their

0:45

home bars with the basics. Others want

0:47

to leisurely browse unique finds and show

0:49

them off. Whatever you're searching for, and

0:51

however you like to shop, look to Ohio

0:53

Liquor. Ohio Liquor, or OHLQ

0:56

for short, has thousands of high-proof

0:58

spirits, including OHLQ exclusives.

1:01

Browse spirits online at OHLQ.com,

1:04

then shop a location near you. Boost

1:06

your spirits IQ with OHLQ.

1:13

Hello

1:19

to everybody with an amazingly on-brand

1:21

psychiatrist name. It's Beautiful

1:23

Anonymous. One hour, one phone

1:25

call, no

1:26

names, no holds barred.

1:29

I'd rather go one-on-one. I

1:31

think it'll be more fun. And

1:34

I'll get to know you

1:38

and you'll get to

1:40

know me.

1:41

Hi everybody, Chris Gethard here. Welcome

1:44

to Beautiful Anonymous. So happy to

1:47

bring you another episode because if you're

1:49

new to this show, here's what we do. We

1:51

take phone calls. We talk to people one hour at a

1:53

time. We make the phone calls

1:55

very relaxed. There's no agenda. You

1:58

just come, you tell a story.

1:59

You air out an opinion. You

2:02

share what you want to share. You make it as exciting

2:04

or as boring as you feel. And we learn about

2:06

the world one hour at a time. And

2:09

we fight back against loneliness is what we

2:11

do. And I'll tell you, this

2:13

episode ties into that. Before

2:15

I get into it, I want to say thanks to everybody who came out

2:17

to Toronto. Tamadi Barr. Love

2:19

that spot. Thank you so much. I

2:22

have some dates actually in Oklahoma and Texas

2:24

in August, because who doesn't want to go to Oklahoma

2:26

and Texas in the dead heat of August? But

2:29

I'll have info on

2:29

that in the coming weeks. You're about

2:32

to hear from a psychologist. She's

2:34

got a doctorate. She does things her own way.

2:37

She's seen a lot. She's worked with people from all

2:39

different stripes. And I was able to talk to

2:41

this psychologist about

2:44

what are you seeing? What are the broad

2:46

strokes of what's messing people up right now? What's

2:48

your advice when people ask, how do I know when

2:50

to see a doctor for the first time?

2:52

How do I help know when it's time to bring my kid

2:54

to see a mental health professional

2:57

for the first time? And here's what I really loved.

3:00

She's off the clock. It's not clinical.

3:02

It's it's hey, I'm a psychologist

3:04

who thinks very hard about how to do what I do and

3:06

do it well. But if we're just going

3:08

to be talking behind the scenes about how I'm really feeling

3:11

in a casual way, here's all the things

3:13

you need to know. And I think that that's hugely valuable.

3:16

And if you're out there right now

3:18

and you're thinking maybe it's time to see somebody, I hope

3:20

you do. It's Mental Health Awareness

3:22

Month. There's no better month to start. And

3:25

if you're sitting here wondering why things are the

3:27

way they are and why we're all as stressed out as we are right

3:29

now, she's got some good thoughts on it.

3:31

I feel really lucky I got to talk to her. I hope

3:34

you enjoy listening to it.

3:38

Thank you for calling Beautiful Anonymous.

3:41

A beeping noise will indicate when you are on

3:43

the show with the host. Hello.

3:46

Hi. Am I on?

3:49

You're on. It's happening. All

3:52

right. This is

3:54

really a treat. Well, that's

3:56

cool to hear. I'm very excited

3:58

to talk to you. I've

4:00

listened to you for years and

4:03

I'm a psychologist. I love your

4:05

podcast. I recommend many

4:08

of your episodes to people to listen to.

4:12

And I've seen you just once. I

4:14

went tickets a couple of times during the pandemic,

4:16

but only managed to see you once.

4:19

So I'm thrilled to talk to you. Thank

4:21

you. And thank you for all you do to help other people.

4:23

That's very good to

4:25

dedicate your life to the service of others. Well,

4:28

I'm dying to know I haven't listened to a ton

4:30

of recent ones, but are you going back

4:32

to social work school? I'm not,

4:35

but for good reason. OK. Because

4:39

I got hired. I basically

4:41

got hired to do

4:43

a bunch of work for a mental health nonprofit

4:46

and I'm going to be organizing a bunch

4:48

of stuff for them so I could just get to work. And

4:51

I don't need to do three

4:53

years of school to get there. So yeah,

4:55

yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I started

4:57

a few weeks ago and I'm greatly enjoying it.

5:00

Well, that's great. And

5:02

you'll continue to do your podcast and

5:05

that too? As long

5:07

as they let me, I want to keep

5:09

it going. That's awesome. I think it'll be fine,

5:12

but I'm going to keep it going as long as I can. I want to keep

5:14

it going. Well, we

5:16

certainly know at this point that it's a huge

5:19

issue and that we really need to change

5:21

our whole model about mental health, don't

5:23

we? Oh yeah. And now

5:25

that I'm working for an organization that's really

5:27

on the ground doing stuff hands

5:30

on with people,

5:31

I'm realizing

5:34

how real it is, how real of a fight

5:37

it is right now. Yeah, yeah.

5:41

When I was raised and my kids, I worked for

5:43

an agency that provided the therapist

5:45

to, I live outside of a big

5:47

city and they provided all the therapists

5:50

to the most restrictive educational

5:53

settings,

5:54

which really I learned to cut my

5:56

teeth

5:57

in that organization. So

6:00

that's why I was telling me that

6:02

you had, I think you've only had one psychologist

6:05

on, is that right? Or have you had more than that?

6:08

I'm not certain. I mean, seven years

6:10

of calls, I don't have instant recall

6:12

of the amount. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't, we've

6:14

had a lot, I tell you who we've had a lot of is social

6:16

workers.

6:18

Yeah, that's true. As far as what

6:21

different people's different degrees are, I can't

6:23

speak to it instantly,

6:25

but a lot of social workers support this

6:27

show. And it's very, that's been very cool.

6:30

Oh, yeah. So I remember listening

6:32

to the psychologist who was excellent,

6:35

but she's also was very research

6:39

driven and numbers

6:41

and all of that, which is fantastic. We need

6:43

that. Because I cut

6:46

my case the way I did. I think I'm a

6:48

little bit more like your therapist, maybe not quite

6:50

as much out there as your therapist. But,

6:53

you know, I don't, I'm

6:55

in private practice now. I have been for about 15

6:58

years. But I

7:01

definitely think outside the box and do

7:03

all things

7:04

that my other therapist friends wouldn't do. You

7:06

know, like take people to this to

7:08

see their medical provider, if nobody else in

7:11

their family or network will give them a ride

7:13

or

7:13

that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah,

7:16

it's, it's interesting. It sounds

7:18

like you cut your teeth at an organization similar

7:20

to the one that I'm working

7:22

with now, the people I work with now,

7:24

I believe are the biggest non profit organization

7:29

that provides therapists to schools. Wow.

7:32

Yeah, so it sounds very similar. It wouldn't be with Dico,

7:34

would it be? Would it be with Dico? No.

7:37

Does that sound familiar? No. Yeah. Because they have

7:39

actually an office

7:40

in New York City as well.

7:41

I don't think they've gone elsewhere. But

7:44

yeah. Yeah, it's not with

7:46

Dico. It's

7:48

an organization called Wellness Together, California

7:51

based, very, very good kind people.

7:53

I'm sure people are going to get curious and want to look

7:55

it up. And they're going to go, Oh, this feels like a

7:57

thing get there. It should be doing.

7:59

And it's good, but it's funny because I tell

8:02

you, I already, I'm not providing

8:05

any sort of mental health services,

8:08

but they're having me do all the training as if I was,

8:11

so I have an awareness of what it is.

8:14

And I realized there's so many,

8:17

there are so many, I would just say so many

8:20

tight ropes as far

8:22

as providing service, trying to

8:24

cut to the quick and get the service to where it's

8:26

needed

8:27

while doing it in a way that's responsible

8:29

and smart.

8:30

It's really daunting. So for you to be able to

8:32

navigate it and figure out

8:35

how to be a little bit outside of the box, I

8:38

feel like that kudos to you and

8:40

you have to be, you have to be a veteran in that

8:42

game to figure out exactly where

8:45

the lines blur and where your comfort zone

8:47

is, right? Yeah, well, I

8:50

mean, yeah, I'm 67 now, so

8:54

you do have some older people that listen

8:56

to you. I know you know that. Yeah,

8:58

it's all good. I love it. Yeah,

9:00

yeah.

9:01

And I was actually

9:04

driving to work today, listening to the high schooler called

9:06

in and that's a lot like my practice.

9:08

Like I work with people from, I

9:10

mean,

9:11

I think the youngest I work with is six

9:14

and my oldest is about 86.

9:18

And I deal with absolutely everything. And

9:21

I really love it. I mean, it's just,

9:23

it's a real varied practice and

9:25

it's always

9:26

interesting and important. And what's

9:29

nice about my private practice, I have to say,

9:31

which is interesting, thinking about what

9:33

you're doing is people come to me generally

9:36

want to get help.

9:38

And so they

9:40

work hard for the most part. And

9:42

I really deeply admire them because

9:45

they are trying to make a difference in their life before things

9:47

get bad. But

9:49

when I worked in the schools, in this

9:51

inner city schools, and I also, one

9:54

of my

9:54

first jobs was at a residential

9:57

treatment center for adolescent girls, which

9:59

sent me right back.

9:59

to graduate school who had no idea what I was

10:02

doing.

10:03

It's

10:06

pause right there. That's a good reason to leave a job

10:08

when you have no idea what you're doing. I've left

10:10

jobs like that where I have absolutely

10:13

no clue. I said, time for me to bounce.

10:16

You know what else is time to bounce? It's time for me to bounce over

10:18

to the commercials. We'll be right back with more phone

10:20

call.

10:25

["Just Between Us." by The Bachelorette plays in

10:27

the background.]

10:27

Have you been looking for a new podcast that

10:29

is a safe space for all sorts of important?

10:32

And not so important. Conversations?

10:34

Might we recommend our own podcast,

10:37

Just Between Us? I'm Allison Raskin.

10:39

And I'm Gabe Dunn. You might recognize us

10:41

from the internet or from our I Heart Podcast

10:44

Awards 2022 nomination for

10:46

Best Ensemble. Each Wednesday we answer

10:49

a listener email, interview a fascinating

10:51

guest, force them to play a game show we

10:53

invented called Hypotheticals, and discuss a popular

10:55

topic in the zeitgeist. I also sing a little

10:57

bit. If an LGBTQ inclusive mental

11:00

health informed podcast where you learn something

11:02

new each episode sounds up your alley, check

11:04

out Just Between Us now. I'm queer.

11:07

And I'm mentally ill.

11:08

Yeah, girl, same. When

11:11

you're behind the wheel, it's okay to rock

11:13

out to your music, but it's not okay

11:16

to interact with your phone screen and electronic

11:18

devices while driving. In most

11:20

cases, anything more than a single touch

11:23

or swipe is against the law.

11:26

That means no texting, no typing,

11:28

no scrolling, no shopping, no

11:30

browsing. If an officer sees a violation,

11:33

they can pull you over. So remember,

11:36

Ohio, phone's down. It's

11:38

the law.

11:42

Thanks to our advertisers who

11:44

help us bring the show to the world. Now let's

11:46

get back to the phone call. One

11:50

of my first jobs was at a residential

11:52

treatment center for adolescent girls which sent

11:55

me right back to graduate school because I had no

11:57

idea what I was doing.

11:58

Yeah. It's kind of fun to

12:00

be in this position.

12:05

But the school base is cool. My daughter worked

12:08

actually in New York city

12:10

in running school

12:12

base or helping design and implement

12:15

and grow school-based

12:18

health centers,

12:20

which is, I mean, I think that's really the way

12:22

we all need to go is more school-based,

12:25

just more available

12:27

everywhere.

12:30

And try to de-stigmatize, which I

12:32

think is one of the nice things that your podcast does

12:35

is it really de-stigmatizes

12:37

mental health.

12:38

Well, I've been very happy to do my part. And

12:41

I'm with you. I think there is something

12:43

very noble about the idea of

12:45

trying to meet people where they're at, especially

12:49

when it comes to their health, right? And

12:52

there's gonna be some situations where maybe, I

12:54

mean, first of all, let's just be totally

12:56

honest, because I wanna hear about

12:58

this from you, but I

13:01

sit here and I go, right now, there's

13:03

a whole generation of kids that spent

13:06

two years at home when they're usually

13:08

learning how to be social. And just,

13:11

no matter how that ball bounces,

13:15

that's a weird thing that we had to do as a society.

13:18

And there's kids, if you miss, imagine

13:20

if you missed sixth and seventh grade,

13:23

I just think of those years

13:25

right there. I go, some kids are starting to go through puberty.

13:27

Other kids like me are the late bloomers

13:30

being left behind. Nobody knows how

13:32

to handle any of it. You're starting

13:34

to get old enough to think pretty hard about

13:37

your home life and what's good about

13:39

it, but also what

13:41

feels like it's not equal to what others have,

13:43

and you're starting to feel that anger. Maybe you have older

13:45

siblings who are starting to drink and do drugs and you're

13:47

seeing it. And imagine if those

13:49

years you were just at home not

13:52

talking to people, when you're supposed to be learning

13:54

how to fit into society and you're doing those changes,

13:56

then on top of it,

13:58

whole generation of kids right now.

14:00

that's being actually trained

14:02

in like defensive military

14:05

tactics in the halls of their schools where

14:07

a lot of people my age and older

14:10

sit here and go, we had fire drills

14:12

where they taught us maybe we even once

14:14

in a while had a bomb scare where somebody called

14:17

in a bomb threat and they had to teach us how to get out quickly

14:19

and which fields to go stand in.

14:22

We didn't have this. We

14:24

didn't have this where they're teaching us, okay,

14:26

turn the lights off and get under a desk

14:28

and tip over the desk if you have to or come

14:30

hide in this closet and be quiet.

14:34

It's psychologically, it

14:37

is strange what

14:40

we're putting kids through right now. I'm happy

14:42

to put

14:44

my own sort of

14:46

artistic pursuits on hold for a while or

14:48

at least to split some of the attention away from

14:50

them. If I see

14:52

some lanes where I can go, I might be able

14:54

to get some people into schools right now to

14:56

help,

14:57

happy to do it. I'm sure you see a lot of this

14:59

stuff too.

15:00

Yeah, but I have to say you actually made me

15:02

think of something I hadn't thought of in years and that

15:04

is I was of the generation during the Cuban

15:07

Missile Crisis. I was in kindergarten

15:10

and we had drills where we had to hide under our

15:12

desk in case a nuclear bomb hit us.

15:14

I had nightmares about

15:16

that for years actually.

15:18

I will tell you I'm at the tail end

15:20

of that. I remember sometimes I have

15:22

these visions of when I was six or seven

15:25

sneaking into my parents' room and sleeping

15:28

on the floor at the foot of their bed because I was so

15:30

scared the Russians were going to nuke us. I

15:32

feel like if you were even three or four years younger

15:34

than me, you probably didn't have that and I was at the tail

15:37

end of all the nuclear stuff.

15:39

It was scary. Yeah,

15:41

it was really scary. What's amazing and

15:44

that's what you're making me think of

15:45

is that I probably did that

15:47

maybe twice in kindergarten, but

15:50

again nightmares for years and what kids

15:53

go through or anybody actually could be at

15:55

churches now, it could be at grocery stores,

15:58

it could be anywhere.

16:00

It's kind of mind-boggling to think about

16:02

that. Yeah. And you know, I have

16:04

to say, this is not me getting

16:06

in a soapbox, but you know,

16:08

when I thought about this whole kind of

16:11

gun control thing and,

16:13

you know, no,

16:15

and I've had one or two clients

16:18

in my private practice

16:20

that I would say, if someone asked me, I

16:22

would say, don't give this person a gun.

16:24

But nobody would ask me because

16:26

I'm private, right?

16:27

You're not going to say, oh yeah, call my therapist,

16:29

find out if she agrees.

16:31

So I just don't think the

16:33

system is work for

16:36

figuring out who should have guns

16:38

and who shouldn't. It's wild.

16:41

Well, I want to ask you because that's my soapbox.

16:44

That's my soapbox and what I've been saying. But I

16:46

want to know for you as someone who's a psychologist

16:48

right now,

16:50

you

16:52

have patients raging in age, I believe

16:54

you said from six to 86. Yeah.

16:57

It sounds like you're keeping busy. Yeah.

17:00

Oh yeah. You had to say like, if you had to say, okay,

17:03

with this broad range of people from different backgrounds,

17:06

age groups, if I had

17:08

to say what I'm seeing as

17:11

someone meeting people

17:13

individually to hear about what's

17:16

tripping them up, here's what I would

17:18

say are the broad strokes of where we're

17:20

at in America right now. Oh,

17:23

you're asking me, I was gonna say, oh, thank God. He's answering

17:25

that question. No, no, no. I'm

17:27

throwing it all. Please tell me what's wrong with

17:29

America. You personally

17:32

take responsibility and you tell me what

17:34

we have to fix.

17:35

Damn.

17:39

I will get back to that, but

17:41

can I step aside because I'm

17:43

a little bit blown away by what's happened

17:45

actually. You know, when you said

17:47

if this happened to me and when I was in sixth

17:49

or seventh grade, my first reaction was, oh, that

17:52

would have been wonderful not to have to go

17:54

to school and deal with what I dealt with. Not

17:56

that it was bad, it was just a typical American

17:59

upbringing. But, you know, kids

18:01

are rough and,

18:02

you know, I was always told that

18:04

I, you know, wasn't working to my potential and,

18:07

you know, I don't know, it was rough.

18:10

And I really hoped during this

18:12

pandemic that

18:15

we would shift. And

18:17

I still, so I said this to someone else and they said, you

18:19

know, give us time. We're still learning about

18:21

the after effects of the pandemic, but I

18:23

really wish that we had shifted

18:26

some because I see kids

18:28

in school who are literally

18:31

and have for years and years who are, I call

18:33

them allergic to school.

18:35

It is not the place for them. They

18:38

shouldn't be there. It's toxic. And

18:41

I've had several clients who've then gone off and done

18:43

homeschooling or online learning

18:45

way before the pandemic and they thrive.

18:48

And I just

18:50

wish that we did a better,

18:52

I mean, we weren't prepared for this, of course.

18:55

But I wish that we could do a better

18:57

job giving

18:59

people alternatives

19:01

because, you know, you're right. We

19:03

do need to live

19:05

within groups of other people.

19:08

Okay. I'm going to have to correct myself, but

19:10

we do need to be socialized. We need to learn

19:12

skills, coping skills, how to deal

19:14

with

19:15

our world. But

19:17

it's miserable for people, for

19:20

many people, as you've heard over the years with your

19:22

podcast and probably, I don't know, you hear yourself.

19:25

And then

19:27

my brother actually does

19:30

some volunteer skiing. He lives

19:32

out on the West Coast in the

19:34

mountains. And

19:37

he was saying how he would volunteer

19:39

doing runs and he'd run into all these college students

19:41

during the pandemic. We're saying, you know, my courses

19:43

are a joke. I'm out here skiing. I'm not

19:46

really learning anything. And I

19:48

was appalled by that. I mean, we

19:50

should just do a way

19:52

better job meeting the

19:54

needs

19:55

of the population.

19:58

a second ago that

20:00

I need to interrupt myself, we

20:03

weren't designed to be in public schools,

20:05

right? We weren't designed to have to deal

20:07

with,

20:08

you know, 90 kids per grade, 2000 people in the school.

20:12

I mean, that's not how we evolved. And

20:15

I think, I don't know, I think

20:17

our whole system needs to be revamped.

20:19

We do this, our educational system is

20:22

like this

20:23

for

20:24

expedience sake and

20:26

not for really what's best for each individual

20:28

person.

20:29

That's my soapbox, I'll stop talking. You

20:31

know what I loved about that? I go, if you

20:33

had to tell me the broad strokes of what you think is

20:36

wrong, and you go, well, instead of answer

20:38

that, and

20:39

then you broke down how

20:42

the entire American education system seems

20:44

to be a bit fractured, if not outright broken,

20:47

in a way that perfectly answered it.

20:49

Okay, good. Yeah. Yeah,

20:53

and I don't know what it is. And you

20:55

know what, we have a lot of people that we're educating,

20:57

and we're trying to deal with

21:00

their mental health, but

21:01

it's just so sad. I work with a kindergarten

21:03

teacher now whom I love. She is

21:06

so talented, and

21:08

she has been talking about the

21:11

teachers and her building and how burnt

21:13

out they are, and how little

21:16

effort they put into their work now.

21:20

And you know,

21:22

this is another inner city school. So

21:24

I'm not talking about all teachers. I really greatly

21:26

admire teachers, but

21:28

it's a really tough

21:30

job,

21:31

and we don't

21:33

pay them enough. We

21:36

put a lot of pressure on them now to

21:38

meet certain standards.

21:40

And it's just sad. I

21:43

have two little granddaughters now, and I'm like, oh my

21:46

God, I don't wanna send them into school

21:48

to learn that the world is a hard place

21:50

to live.

21:51

Yeah. And I will admit, I'm speaking

21:54

from a position of privilege here

21:56

because I know that.

21:58

For sure. For sure as am I

22:01

certainly but I think we're allowed to

22:03

have these meltdowns as well. I

22:05

think we're allowed yeah but

22:07

I hear you yeah everyone

22:10

I so many of my friends who became

22:12

teachers. I mean it's

22:14

funny today is actually my birthday as you

22:16

and I are taking this this is my birthday birthday

22:18

thanks.

22:21

Can I tell you forty three now you keep

22:23

saying your age or you forty four I'm

22:25

forty three I turn forty three.

22:28

I'm sure today it's official I've been saying

22:30

forty three for a while cuz I really have felt forty

22:33

three for a couple months. I feel

22:35

like but it's funny cuz I feel

22:37

old

22:38

but I know that at forty three.

22:41

It's not that old it's definitely a point

22:43

where I think a lot of people maybe question

22:45

is it time for some new life choices is it time

22:48

feels a little bit like.

22:50

The last era where I'll be able to make some

22:52

major changes if I want to and who knows

22:54

how much of that's in my head I have no idea but it feels

22:56

like it but what I can tell

22:58

you. I have a number of friends

23:01

who became teachers out of college and

23:04

since you brought up teachers and education

23:06

being one of the things that pops in your head right away

23:08

as far as.

23:10

Being what's broken I can say.

23:13

I have many friends

23:16

who became teachers who in their early

23:18

forties are very burnt out and

23:21

very tired of it. Yeah who consistently

23:23

express some version of.

23:27

There's all sorts of things that I am asked

23:29

to deal with that get in the

23:31

way of me being able

23:34

to just give kids a good experience whether

23:36

that's administration

23:38

whether that's standardized tests. I

23:41

have one friend who taught at a very highly regarded

23:43

public school district in New Jersey who left

23:46

the district because if a kid got an a

23:48

minus instead of an a parent

23:51

conference I want to come in and talk to you about it if you

23:53

got a plus instead of an a minus. Parent

23:56

conference let's talk and and

23:59

you start to realize.

23:59

there's so much of it that's

24:01

built

24:03

about test

24:06

scores and achievement and

24:08

everyone's buying into it in a way that's

24:12

really

24:15

making it so the whole system isn't about

24:17

the kids, it's about sheets of paper

24:19

that lists data

24:22

that the kids represent and

24:24

that's just not going to work

24:27

long term and I'd like to think, I

24:29

will tell you too though as the parent of a kid

24:31

who just turned four I

24:33

feel like a lot of the parents I talk to,

24:35

a lot of us of the little ones right now are

24:37

going oh yeah we're not doing that,

24:40

we're

24:40

not going to put them through that.

24:42

If he gets a B instead of an A I don't

24:44

care, is he nice? Is

24:46

he kind? Yeah. Does

24:49

he make other people feel good? If

24:52

he sees somebody who said does he try to make

24:54

it better not worse? I care a lot

24:56

more about that than his SAT score and

24:59

I'm not the only parent right now who I think is feeling

25:01

that and that's I think a good adjustment. Now

25:04

probably we'll swing the pendulum way

25:06

too hard and we'll have a whole batch of kids who

25:09

are way too hippy dippy about school and

25:11

we'll have to find a healthy middle ground but right now I

25:13

can feel that a lot of us are just going

25:16

I don't want to stand over my kid's shoulder

25:18

and make sure he gets 10 points higher on the

25:20

SAT. I don't care, it's not

25:22

healthy.

25:23

Well wouldn't we hope

25:26

that this whole like to

25:28

be brought down to earth like we were in the

25:30

pandemic would kind of shift our perspective

25:33

to actually what's important in life right?

25:35

You'd like to think so yeah.

25:37

Yeah I like to think so too and

25:39

I do think we have to be patient to kind of just

25:41

wait and see how this all works out but

25:44

you know I don't know I'm hopeful

25:49

but I don't know what's going on politically

25:51

I mean you know it really worries me

25:53

and you know I

25:55

don't really care I mean I

25:58

think we need I'm a staunch

25:59

but you know, I think we

26:02

need Republicans sometimes to wind us,

26:04

you know, reel us back in. But what's

26:07

happening now without any collaboration

26:10

like that is, it's very scary

26:12

to me.

26:13

You know, I really feel like we, you

26:15

know, back in the Kennedy days

26:17

when, and I'm not saying I was a staunch

26:19

Kennedy person, he was before my time, but,

26:22

you know, these people really worked hard

26:24

to try to come together and have

26:27

the best solution for the

26:29

country, and that's just not what happens anymore. And

26:31

maybe that was naive, I don't know. I just

26:33

think that happened a whole lot more before.

26:36

Well, it certainly feels like

26:38

there's an ability, there's

26:41

a double-edged sword, which is that what

26:43

I see in very broad strokes that I'm sure

26:45

smarter people think a lot harder about. But I

26:47

sit here and I go, there's

26:49

a lot of mechanisms built

26:51

to make you feel like you're being a part of something

26:54

when it's not having much actual

26:56

effect.

26:57

You're talking a lot about sort of internet-driven

27:00

things here. Like,

27:02

you can post with a hashtag, and that's doing

27:04

something, sure, but not as much as you think.

27:07

And it's not the same as when

27:09

we saw footage, like you said, back

27:11

in the day, of people actually arm in arm marching

27:13

for causes, whereas

27:16

some of the people who are now marching for causes

27:19

are also storming the Capitol now,

27:22

and that's kind of coming to represent what that

27:24

looks like, and that's not

27:26

very good either. I

27:28

have been, of course, inspired, you

27:30

know, I'll never forget, I had moved

27:33

back out to New Jersey when George Floyd happened, and

27:35

I saw some of the towns where those protests

27:37

were happening, and they were

27:39

towns that I knew growing up as wealthy

27:41

and white that you'd think would be

27:43

buttoned up and aghast at it. And I

27:45

sit here, I go, okay, so every once in a while there is still

27:47

something. But then again,

27:50

then there's other, there's

27:52

media outlets that I am

27:55

allergic to, that I hold my nose

27:57

at, that looked at those protests, and...

28:00

and said that they were the problem. So

28:03

these loops they send us on are

28:06

not healthy. Can

28:08

I ask you a question that I think it... Good.

28:11

Well, no, first of all, respond. If you have a response,

28:13

I'm sitting here rambling about nothing and then I

28:15

don't even let you respond. No, no, that's okay, that's okay. I

28:19

forgot what I was gonna say. So you go ahead. Well,

28:21

I wanna ask you a question that might help individuals

28:23

out there. Okay. Because

28:26

I've talked about what

28:30

it was like for me to go and find my first

28:32

shrink and then having to go find a different

28:35

one until I found the right one.

28:37

People have told me in a way that's very

28:39

flattering over the years that some of my work

28:42

helped them realize, I know I should

28:44

have a mental health professional

28:46

in my life, let me go find one. And every time I hear

28:48

that, I go, that's amazing. That's so cool,

28:50

because

28:51

I know how helpful it is. But

28:53

I've had other friends in my life

28:55

say to me, I remember once very

28:57

distinctly, I had a friend who's a songwriter

29:00

said to me, I know I need a shrink,

29:03

but I haven't hit rock bottom yet. So

29:05

I'm not gonna do it. And I remember saying, why

29:07

are you waiting for rock? Like rock bottom's hard.

29:10

Yeah. Rock bottom's hard. No.

29:13

Like you don't, why are you waiting? If you know you

29:15

need one now, they'll help you avoid rock bottom.

29:17

Rock bottom's scary.

29:19

Yeah. Rock bottom might feel necessary. And that

29:21

is, there's some language like in recovery about

29:23

rock bottom and whatnot. But if you can avoid

29:25

rock bottom, avoid rock

29:27

bottom, cause the stuff that happens when you're

29:29

at rock bottom, you might never stop thinking

29:32

about that. You might have a glimmer of that. Every

29:34

time you look in the mirror, you might go, what did I do at rock

29:36

bottom? So avoid it.

29:37

So one question I have for you that

29:39

might be really helpful for people out there,

29:43

what would you

29:45

recommend someone starts to seek help

29:47

in the mental health space as a mental health professional?

29:50

How do people know when it's time as far as

29:53

from your perspective? Cause I'm sure

29:55

you see people where you go, I wish I got to you

29:57

two years ago, we could have saved you a lot of pain. Yeah. I

30:00

sure do. I'm sure you also have run into

30:02

a person from time to time where you go, are you

30:05

sure you want to spend the money

30:07

on this because I think you're

30:09

okay. I'm sure you've seen both ends of it. Yeah,

30:12

I have. But I want to say though, one of my

30:14

commitments, and this keeps me a lot

30:17

poorer, is so my husband and

30:19

I are in private practice together. And

30:22

we are absolutely committed to

30:24

only insurance

30:25

based people.

30:27

I

30:29

have lots of friends for various

30:32

reasons who are cash only,

30:34

particularly people at my

30:36

age at 65, they're all saying, I'm done with insurance,

30:39

I'm going to go just be cash only.

30:41

We just won't do it

30:43

because I couldn't afford to pay that kind

30:45

of money for a good therapist.

30:47

And so I think

30:50

therapy absolutely should be insurance

30:52

based everywhere, whether it's internet or

30:54

whatever.

30:55

I

30:57

worked in the public schools,

31:00

we build the Medicaid

31:02

version in our state.

31:04

Everybody could have therapy and

31:06

so everybody should, number one, have

31:08

insurance.

31:09

And we should pay people adequately.

31:11

I think we should pay teachers a whole hell

31:13

of a lot more than me because they

31:16

actually see people all

31:18

the time. I tell people all

31:21

the time, they say, oh, you're so good. And I go,

31:23

you know what? I am only as good as you're

31:25

willing to work. If

31:27

you're willing to work hard, then we can get stuff done

31:29

here. If you're not willing to work, then I'm really

31:32

not very good.

31:33

So that's

31:36

the piece of it as well. But

31:38

your question,

31:41

oh,

31:41

I

31:44

think people, whenever you have a question,

31:46

do I need to talk someone? That's the time to talk

31:48

to someone.

31:49

There

31:52

is no reason to wait. Let's

31:57

pause right there. I hope that helps.

32:00

It's broken my heart. I've had versions of that conversation

32:02

a few times over the years. And if you're

32:04

somebody who's like, I should probably track down a

32:06

shrink.

32:07

Yeah. You

32:10

should. And the best time to do

32:12

it's right now. And I'm not being melodramatic

32:14

in recommending that. If you know it's time,

32:17

go find them. Or find

32:19

the people in your life who will find them for you if you're not

32:21

quite capable. But it's time. Anyway.

32:25

Much love to ya. Much love

32:28

to our advertisers as well.

32:30

Ew, gross. Okay, we'll be right back.

32:33

So

32:57

remember, Ohio, phone's down. It's the law.

33:03

Thanks

33:27

again to everybody who advertises on the show. Helps

33:29

us bring it to the world.

33:33

Now

33:38

let's finish off the phone call.

33:40

I think people, whenever you have

33:42

a question, do I need to talk to someone? That's the time to talk

33:45

to someone.

33:46

You know, there is no

33:49

reason to wait. In fact, remember

33:51

when the lottery got really high? I don't

33:53

know, like nine months ago, it's like, you know, what am I going

33:55

to do with that money? And I really thought long and hard about it.

33:59

I'm going to change the mental health model.

34:03

And I think there should be therapists, no matter

34:05

what their credentials are, in every

34:07

doctor's office in all schools, there's

34:10

plenty of us out there. And

34:13

when you go into the doctor for your yearly

34:15

checkup, have a yearly mental health checkup,

34:18

and then start referring elsewhere. I mean,

34:20

that's where I was like, and I really should have won

34:22

that lottery because I would have done a lot of good if

34:24

I had. So

34:27

anyway, I mean, I have to say, I

34:30

had a mother once bring in her six-year-old and

34:32

said, my kid's afraid to go to the next

34:34

level of the house. And

34:38

I really want him to be able to deal with his thing,

34:41

to figure this out. So I talked

34:43

to the kids and

34:45

what I was doing was I was teaching him how to

34:47

manage his anxiety. And he's an anxious

34:50

kid, he's going to have anxiety

34:52

his old life.

34:53

And I was so impressed with that mom

34:56

from bringing her kid in right away

34:57

for something that was relatively

35:00

minor, right? I said to the kid, you know what?

35:02

I want to tell you something, you're going to come in here next week and you're

35:04

going to tell me, you know, doc,

35:07

I did it.

35:08

And that's exactly what happened.

35:10

And you know, so if people came in early,

35:13

they're going to solve problems so much

35:15

faster, 100%. I'm

35:17

really struck by- It is, but to go to the other

35:19

party or what? Oh yeah, no, go for it, to

35:21

go to the other part. I was going to say, to go

35:24

to the other part of your question though, oh God,

35:26

I forgot it.

35:27

It's Harvey in 65 and I'm

35:29

talking

35:30

to you. The other part was, how

35:32

do you know when someone's showing up and you go, hey,

35:36

this is not the best use of your time and money, you

35:38

can get through this. That must happen

35:41

less often.

35:42

Yeah, I don't know.

35:45

I never send people, well, again, I'm insurance based,

35:47

so I don't send people away, not because I want to use

35:49

their money, but because they're asking for help

35:52

and I want to give it to them.

35:54

Even if it's relatively minor,

35:57

or

35:57

relatively easy to fix.

36:00

If I can fix something, I will.

36:02

But that kind of speaks to the other issue

36:04

though.

36:06

And I think you talked about this in one of your podcasts

36:08

recently about, or it's been out in the

36:10

news, just the kind of loneliness factor, which

36:12

is the other issue post pandemic that we're

36:15

all talking about more. I mean,

36:17

people just need to find connection.

36:21

That's why your podcast is so popular,

36:23

right? People are finding other people who

36:26

are struggling with the same things and thinking about

36:28

the same things. And it's meaningful.

36:31

And there

36:33

are some people I feel like, you're probably

36:35

done here, but

36:39

they just need to have a connection with someone

36:41

who actually really knows them at this point.

36:43

Well, I'd like to think

36:46

that out of all the virtual things

36:50

that promise connection. I'm

36:53

pretty proud of this one. I think this is pretty close. I

36:57

think you can actually listen, but

36:59

you have to commit for an hour.

37:00

And we have as few interruptions as possible.

37:03

And there's

37:06

some that are just even more empty calories.

37:08

And even I will say, I'm proud of this podcast,

37:10

but it's not the same as

37:13

looking someone in the eye. I recently went

37:15

on a rant on some comedy

37:17

show or some other podcast

37:20

where I said,

37:23

and I really meant it. I go,

37:25

now that we're all going back to restaurants, I

37:27

don't ever wanna scan a QR code again. Because

37:30

a lot of them, well,

37:32

because they're keeping that. A lot of the restaurants are keeping

37:34

that. And I get that it's probably easier. And

37:36

especially if you're doing fresh ingredients

37:39

and you change

37:41

the menu a lot, you don't have to print it again. But

37:44

there's also some part of it where I go,

37:47

this cuts down on those

37:50

little seemingly inconsequential conversations

37:53

I have with the person beyond the counter or

37:55

the waiter. And look,

37:58

people in the service industry.

38:00

It's a tough gig. And there's probably a lot of them

38:02

that go, I love a reason to not have to

38:05

talk to these jabronis who constantly bother

38:07

us. I get that too.

38:08

I get that people get squeezed all the time. But I sit here

38:10

and go,

38:13

like when I lived in New York, and you moved

38:15

to a new neighborhood, and you go to your

38:17

corner deli enough

38:19

that when you walk in they start to realize,

38:22

okay, like I order my egg and cheese

38:25

and they know I never get salt, pepper, ketchup on

38:27

it, and they've stopped asking me. Because they

38:29

know I don't get it. And they know I don't get

38:31

meat on it. It's egg and cheese plain. When

38:34

you realize, oh, they've stopped asking me, I'm a regular.

38:36

Even that lack of conversation is

38:39

a little spark of human conversation. And

38:42

I can't tell you how much some

38:44

of those little seemingly inconsequential

38:47

human interactions have gotten me through

38:49

bad days. I had

38:52

one that I never forgot. I don't think

38:54

I've told this on the shelf before.

38:57

When I lived in Woodside, Queens, this was

38:59

probably when I was about 27 or 28. This

39:03

was right around when I started seeing Barb, who's

39:05

my shrink, who I did my HBO

39:07

special about, who I've been with since 2007,

39:10

16 years. I've

39:12

been turning 43 today. I've been with her since I was 27. So

39:15

I was at a really bad stretch of life.

39:18

And I remember I had this laundromat in my

39:20

neighborhood. It was in Queens,

39:22

which is a beautifully diverse

39:25

place. And it

39:28

was a Middle

39:30

Eastern family that ran the laundromat. And

39:32

the lady who was very often there, she wore

39:35

head wrap. I

39:38

believe he job, but I might be, there's

39:40

a few different kinds. I don't want to misspeak, but we

39:44

had different backgrounds.

39:46

I was a 27 year old white boy

39:48

from the suburbs of New Jersey. She

39:51

was, I'm fairly

39:53

certain, an immigrant to Queens from the Middle East.

39:56

And I remember once I dropped off my laundry,

39:58

and then I went back a couple of days later.

39:59

to pick it up.

40:01

And I paid her and

40:04

left the tip on the counter. And as I walked away,

40:06

she just goes, Hey, you

40:08

okay? Oh, wow.

40:10

And for a long time, well, for a long

40:12

time, and we said we talked, I said, I'm

40:15

a little stressed. And I forget

40:17

exactly what the conversation was. But for

40:19

a long time, I would do a joke in my stand up said,

40:21

I should bring this joke back where I would say, how sad

40:24

do you have to be that someone can sense it through your

40:26

laundry? You know, like, these

40:28

were very quick

40:29

interactions. But point being,

40:33

point being, like that was a neighborhood spot.

40:35

I dropped off, I picked up with her. She

40:37

noticed she saw me as a human

40:40

being something about my body language that day

40:42

or the drop off or the last few times,

40:45

maybe even before I realized it.

40:47

She was like, man, that guy's not

40:50

making eye contact like he used

40:52

to or

40:53

he's waiting until his bag is really overflowing.

40:56

I bet his house is a mess. What's up with this? Something

41:00

about it that I've never been able to put my finger on.

41:02

She nailed it. And we need that.

41:04

Yeah,

41:04

that's amazing. That's

41:06

amazing. Well, they made me something special about

41:08

these laundry folks in Queens or

41:10

New York. My daughter used to live in

41:13

in Ridgewood. And

41:14

I visited her one day or one weekend

41:17

and we went out to get I got in my car

41:19

and my car wouldn't move.

41:21

And I got out of the car and looked and the street

41:24

had sunk in and

41:26

my car was stuck

41:28

in the sinkhole in front of this

41:30

laundromat.

41:32

And we're like, Oh my God, what did we

41:34

do? It was over the 4th of July weekend. And

41:36

so we went, we went on a laundromat there and the

41:39

woman came out and she said, well, we

41:41

can't move these cars around your car because

41:43

this guy's on vacation and this guy's here and she

41:46

knew all the cars and where people

41:48

were.

41:49

Yeah, it was unbelievable.

41:51

We need that. And

41:53

it was amazing. Speaking of amazing, I don't want to

41:55

run out of time before I tell you that I saw you

41:58

on your

41:59

your off-road waste

42:00

special the day after Trump was elected?

42:03

Oh, that was a good one. That

42:06

was such a good one. And you, I

42:08

mean, first of all, that was, I was with

42:10

my husband and daughter and we were so bummed

42:13

and you just made us all feel better. Like

42:15

it's gonna be okay everybody. I

42:18

remember saying- But the other thing you were- Oh,

42:20

go for it, yeah, yeah. Well, go ahead. No, you

42:22

say-

42:23

There you go. You were so funny

42:25

and then people would come in late and you're like,

42:28

oh wait, come on in and let me catch you up because you've

42:30

missed a couple of minutes and that was just so, it was

42:32

just an amazing special.

42:33

You do such a great job. Thanks,

42:36

I remember saying, I remember saying

42:38

like I had this fantasy that I'd be

42:40

doing this show and

42:43

maybe Hillary would get elected

42:45

and she'd put so much effort into mental health

42:47

in America and she'd find out about my little show

42:49

and she'd, and I'd get some kind of, she'd

42:52

say, I'm really proud of you and

42:55

now Donald Trump's elected and I'm scared he's gonna

42:57

see this show someday and she's gonna be like, you're a little bitch.

43:00

You're literally like that was, I immediately had

43:02

that feeling of like, oh guys like me are not

43:05

as, this is something's turned. This

43:08

is not good for guys like me. But

43:10

I wanna ask you in plain terms, so- Yeah.

43:13

I've been very struck that I asked

43:16

you, when you see the broad

43:18

strokes, what do you think the problems are? You immediately

43:20

said, seems like a lot of stuff's off with the education

43:23

system.

43:23

Yeah. When

43:27

would you recommend someone start seeing a mental

43:29

health professional and you said you have hopes

43:31

that it's becoming less stigmatized

43:34

with parents and kids so that kids get in on it early

43:36

and get used to it. Both of

43:38

these things relate to people being

43:41

in their formative years, right?

43:44

Yeah. So-

43:47

Absolutely. And I love

43:49

those answers. And then you said, we

43:52

started talking about loneliness, which I think people

43:54

are starting to refer to as an epidemic. Yeah.

43:57

I think people are starting to realize that a lot of the-

44:00

other things that hit the news when

44:03

it's, when you get down to it,

44:05

loneliness is driving a lot of

44:08

bad, bad things. I think you could argue

44:10

that if,

44:11

if we really look past the sensational side of

44:13

many, many headlines, what you will

44:15

see with a lot of school shooters is intensely

44:18

lonely people. Yeah, absolutely. What

44:20

you will see with a lot of people who

44:23

are falling into white supremacy right

44:25

now is intensely lonely people

44:27

who need some sort of

44:29

acceptance within a group, even if that group

44:32

is twisted and evil. I think it's loneliness

44:35

in many, many different directions and right

44:37

on down the list. So

44:40

without outing your personal

44:43

tricks of the trade and without giving

44:45

away the farm for free, I wonder when

44:47

you do meet with a young person who's

44:49

starting with you

44:51

and you do realize that loneliness is

44:53

this umbrella that a lot of the other problems fall into,

44:56

are there basics you

44:58

put out there as far as combating loneliness

45:00

right now? Whether it's cautionary

45:03

things, whether it's actions

45:05

that you recommend people take, are there things

45:07

you look at in terms of this widespread

45:10

loneliness we're facing and advice you

45:12

find yourself giving

45:13

more often? I

45:17

think the biggest issue is just get involved

45:19

with other people, right? Get out of the house. You

45:23

know, I meet with a lot of kids

45:25

going off to college and I say,

45:27

don't stay in your dorm room. Don't just meet the

45:29

people on your floor. Like get

45:32

interested in something no matter what it is.

45:35

Find a niche, find a way to

45:37

get involved and meet other people.

45:40

So that's one thing, but the other pieces,

45:42

you know, is the whole self-esteem piece,

45:45

right?

45:45

Because you only will reach out

45:47

to others if you feel okay

45:50

about yourself.

45:51

And so that's a big piece that I really work

45:53

on kind of just, I mean,

45:56

everybody is really special

45:58

and they had their special.

45:59

strengths and weaknesses and

46:02

they're loved by somebody.

46:05

And if they're not,

46:07

then let's figure out a way to

46:09

get connected with someone. That's

46:12

huge

46:12

from a really early age.

46:15

And that's where, again, I don't love our educational

46:17

system because lots of us are just

46:20

a number.

46:21

And we're not treated

46:24

as special, and every single person

46:26

is. Every single person that calls your podcast

46:29

is really special and really interesting.

46:32

I've learned so much from them in

46:34

all walks of life.

46:36

So you know, that's,

46:38

and if people really,

46:40

really

46:41

believe that in their heart,

46:43

then they would be able to take risks

46:46

to get out there and,

46:47

you know,

46:49

meet others, try new things. I mean,

46:51

I am constantly pushing people to put

46:53

out the tentacles and develop their social

46:58

connections. I

47:00

don't know if you've heard this, but I say this to college

47:03

students, not one has ever followed my advice,

47:05

but there's a, I

47:07

don't know if you've heard this and I haven't heard anyone,

47:10

have I heard anyone talk about your show? So

47:12

when my son was in college about 10 years

47:14

ago, like Harry

47:15

Potter, 15 years ago, Harry Potter

47:17

was really became,

47:19

quidditch became something that college

47:22

campuses actually offered as the

47:24

extracurricular. Have you heard of it? Yeah,

47:25

yeah. I'm aware that that's

47:28

a thing that's happening out there. It's

47:30

huge. Well, I don't know if it's still huge. It

47:32

was huge when he was involved with it. And

47:35

I like,

47:36

I would say to kids, girls and guys are

47:38

doing this. You know, it's really a lot

47:40

of fun. It's not that serious.

47:44

Very serious, actually. But

47:46

you know, find a way to meet other people and,

47:49

you know, they kind of think I'm crazy.

47:51

But and they're like,

47:54

yeah, quidditch. But it's a great

47:56

way to get connected. It

47:58

actually. made his college

48:01

experience the best thing ever. Actually,

48:04

another thing I want to say about public schools, what do you remember?

48:07

Do you remember your classes? Or do

48:09

you remember the plays you were in, the

48:11

sports you did, the crazy teachers

48:13

you had? Those are what we really

48:16

remember and hold in our hearts, right? Or

48:18

the teacher who really

48:20

looked out for you as a person.

48:22

That's what I feel like we're missing now.

48:25

I can tell you on my end, especially

48:27

by high school, because junior

48:30

high between the social side of it being incredibly

48:32

rough, going to a junior high school that had some weird

48:35

issues with violence,

48:37

learning that math was a roadblock

48:40

that made me not like learning at all. Then

48:43

I got to high school where I just felt like I'm this little

48:45

late bloomer trying to survive. I will tell

48:47

you, I actually had an okay time

48:50

because

48:50

I signed up for every activity

48:52

I could find. I look back, it

48:54

was some effort to just find my people.

48:58

I

48:59

was a kid who just treated the classes

49:01

as a minor inconvenience

49:04

that I had to do in order to stick around

49:07

and try to find some cool people who wanted

49:09

to do some cool stuff.

49:11

Then I luckily had one drama

49:14

teacher named Melissa Blevins,

49:16

who pulled me aside and said,

49:18

most of these teachers think you're a wise

49:20

ass, but I think you might be talented. You want

49:22

to take my drama class and figure it out? Oh

49:25

my God, that's incredible. She's

49:27

the best, she's still a teacher in New Jersey. I'll

49:29

name drop her first and last name, Melissa Blevins.

49:32

She teaches down in Central Jersey now, not in

49:34

my old high school anymore, but I had

49:37

one teacher that handed me the keys

49:39

to the car

49:40

and was like, I think

49:43

maybe if we stopped scolding you and just let you go

49:46

do your thing, might actually

49:48

help you find yourself. There was one teacher

49:50

that saw it for me. The rest of them,

49:53

I

49:54

got my issues. I got my opinions,

49:56

but that's okay. That's okay.

49:59

Yeah, but they're looking at you.

49:59

now going, man, I was wrong.

50:02

You want to hear? I

50:06

feel like I've been talking too much this episode and

50:09

I apologize, but I got one. You might say it's great.

50:11

It's great. Everybody loves stories

50:13

about you, Chris. You'll like

50:15

this both both for

50:17

the story itself. And I think you as

50:19

a mental health professional, you demonstrated.

50:22

I hope you'll say you found

50:24

a real nice middle ground to make your point while

50:26

demonstrating restraint in a way that wasn't

50:29

too crazy. So I don't think I've talked about

50:31

this on the show before, but I couple

50:34

of years ago, back when my

50:37

back when my comedy career was really booming

50:39

back, you know, beginning a beautiful anonymous, there was still

50:41

a few years there where it was

50:43

I hadn't slowed down yet. I've slowed down some intentionally,

50:46

some not. People have heard me talk about this, but

50:49

there was one thing I was promoting and I got booked

50:51

to go on the Kelly Ripa morning show,

50:53

Kelly and Ryan at the time. And

50:56

I was thrilled. My mom's favorite show

50:58

growing up is Regis and Kathie Lee. I watched

51:00

it with her every morning.

51:01

Love that show. And then it became Regis

51:04

and Kelly, Kelly and Ryan. So

51:06

I was thrilled. And I get this message on

51:09

Facebook from my old high

51:11

school history teacher who

51:13

I haven't heard from since the day I graduated in 1998.

51:17

This is probably five years ago. This

51:19

has been a long time. She

51:22

goes, I just saw them advertising.

51:24

You're going to be on Kelly Ripa. Wow.

51:27

And I'm on Facebook looking at this. I'm going, you have

51:29

to be kidding me because this teacher once did

51:31

something to me that. I

51:34

look back now, to be fair, she

51:37

didn't know how tenuous my mental state was. I was

51:39

hiding it. I was a teenager and I was hiding it. But

51:42

I go, yeah, that's true.

51:45

And I was pretty terse

51:47

with my answer.

51:49

And she goes, it's pretty cool

51:51

that you're a comedian. I wonder

51:54

if you get any material from high school.

51:57

And I'm sitting here going, why is she poking the bear on

51:59

this? And I go, So I don't really talk about high

52:01

school all that much in my act. And

52:04

then she goes, oh, that's good. I bet if you

52:06

did, you'd probably be talking a lot about me.

52:09

And I'm sitting here and I'm going, this feels

52:11

like she want. And I finally go, well,

52:14

if I brought you up, because

52:17

I got to tell you something, caller, I had an older brother

52:19

who's three grades ahead of me. So he was a senior

52:21

when I was a freshman and he's

52:23

the best,

52:24

but man, was he a holy terror.

52:26

And some of those teachers, he

52:29

put them through that he was a wise ass and he was a weirdo

52:31

and I love him to death. And

52:34

I learned a lot from him, but it wasn't

52:36

always easy being his little brother. When I'd show

52:38

up years later and a teacher would see my last name.

52:41

And I go, you know,

52:44

if I was to be talking about you, I

52:46

might maybe make fun of, or try to make

52:49

a joke about the time that in front of a hallway

52:51

full of my peers, you got mad at me about

52:53

something and yelled the

52:56

words, this is what I should expect

52:58

from a gether. And the whole

53:00

hallway stopped and stared at me. And

53:03

you basically disparaged

53:06

my family name as a

53:08

teacher in front of a bunch of my peers. And

53:12

she wrote back, I did that. And I go, yeah,

53:14

you did. I never forgot it. And she goes, well,

53:16

it's decades too late, but I'm sorry.

53:18

And I go, I don't spend much time thinking

53:21

about it, but if I was to bring

53:23

you up, that's what it would be. And then my

53:25

mom has a very good friend who's still a teacher in my

53:27

old town. I called my mom up, I go, no, Joe, you

53:29

might be hearing from Joe in, because I just yelled

53:32

at this teacher. And she goes, which one?

53:34

And I said the name, she goes, good. She gave you

53:36

a hard time. She was too rough on you.

53:38

It was rough. And then I remember too, I had

53:40

a friend reach out on Facebook shortly after that.

53:43

I don't know why, but he was a

53:45

kid I lost touch with. He said,

53:48

I posted something about it without naming her. And

53:51

he goes, are you teaching, are you posting about blah,

53:53

blah, blah? And I go, yeah, how'd you

53:55

know? And he goes, I remember once she was writing you so

53:57

hard in history class that you started crying.

54:00

And I raised my hand and said, Mrs.

54:02

Blah, blah, blah, can I speak to you in the hall? And

54:05

this kid was a bad kid and admittedly he

54:07

was wild. And she went

54:09

out in the hall and he was like, I went out in the hall and

54:11

I was like, what are you doing right now? We all

54:13

see you doing this. Why are you going after Chris?

54:15

He's not doing anything.

54:17

And she stopped. And he was like, and I

54:19

remember being so amazed that she listened to

54:21

me because I was a bad kid. So

54:24

I don't remember exactly how we got there, but I thought you might

54:26

like that story. That was just a bad time.

54:28

That's a great story.

54:29

Well, that's the other pressure of teachers

54:32

is that

54:33

they, I don't think

54:35

they want to know how powerful they are

54:38

because their responsibility is

54:40

so huge. Yeah. I

54:42

remember driving my

54:44

son and his friends around in high school and,

54:47

what are people, what are they talking about? They

54:49

talk about school, they talk about teachers, they talk about kids. They're

54:53

so powerful. Yeah.

54:55

It's really kind of an awesome

54:57

responsibility. I

54:59

actually jumped out of, so after

55:03

my kids grew up and I didn't matter what I

55:05

was doing, I jumped ship

55:08

from this old organization and I ran an alternative

55:10

high school for two years. Whoa,

55:12

cool. And I absolutely

55:16

loved it. It was a public school

55:18

and kids who couldn't handle the

55:22

high school were sent kids with anxiety

55:24

and depression, but also really

55:27

tough kids. Kids who had been kicked

55:29

out of other towns for weapons

55:31

or fighting or whatever would come to

55:34

this school. There's only 40 kids.

55:36

And

55:38

it was an amazing experience. I

55:40

love the kids because they all got individual

55:42

assumption. The teachers were all on a first name basis.

55:45

Those teachers were mind blowing. In

55:47

fact, I'm going to a retirement party in a couple of weeks

55:49

for one. They had been there for like 30 years,

55:53

working with the same

55:55

kind of tough kids.

55:57

And I

55:58

could only do.

55:59

it two years. I absolutely loved it. I'm

56:02

like life is short.

56:03

And the administration and

56:06

the lack of support I got and

56:08

the level of pessimism. I mean, I

56:11

was the principal vice principal,

56:13

I wrote the end plans, I disciplined,

56:15

I counseled. I mean, it was

56:17

just way too much for me. It's

56:19

so cool though. Which was such a bummer.

56:21

Because I loved it. Even if you only

56:23

did it a few years, even if you only did

56:25

that a few years, what an amazing thing to put your

56:27

time and your energy towards. That's amazing.

56:30

It was amazing. It was

56:31

amazing. Well, I remember going to a conference towards

56:34

in the middle of the second year and the

56:36

lawyer, it was a law and education

56:39

conference and the lawyer said, yeah, you

56:41

could get sued by a parent

56:43

if your, if their kid graduated

56:46

from your school and they went on to college and they couldn't

56:48

succeed, they could sue you for that.

56:51

And

56:51

I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not going to be sued

56:53

by that. Like no one's going to do that to me because

56:56

much is

56:57

really for the most part, none of them

56:59

could go on to college.

57:00

Some did,

57:02

but you know, for the most part,

57:04

you know, they really just didn't

57:06

have the family support, the money,

57:09

the community support, they were lonely.

57:11

So anyway, it was amazing now.

57:14

That's incredible. I love that you did it. Yeah,

57:17

it was cool. Because there's been some themes

57:19

and we've jumped around from topic to topic, but

57:21

it keeps coming around to if we could

57:23

get mental health into schools, kids

57:25

would be doing better. If kids would start

57:28

younger and doctors offices, right? And

57:30

right. And if kids would be getting into doctor's

57:32

offices at a younger age, you stigmatizing

57:35

better. You work with patients who are as young

57:37

as six.

57:39

So let me ask you a question that's terrifying

57:41

for every young parent because

57:44

I mean, my son will not grow

57:46

up in a house where mental health treatment

57:48

is stigmatized. And in

57:51

my house, I wouldn't say it was stigmatized. I would definitely

57:53

say I was raised by Irish Catholics born in 1948 and 1953.

57:55

Yeah. Which means

57:58

We didn't talk

58:00

about it. People didn't talk about that. That's

58:03

right. It was systemic though. It wasn't a personal

58:05

choice by them. It was just society doesn't talk about

58:07

it and it was hard when we had to. So

58:09

the real fear, and I think a lot of parents

58:12

listening, you are someone who so clearly cares about

58:14

young people,

58:15

cares about mental health, and sees a major

58:18

crossover in those things building

58:20

up for each other. So

58:23

I asked you before, how

58:26

do I know when to go in, but even

58:28

more important as a parent, my

58:31

greatest fear. Well, can I say that I really- You see

58:33

where I'm going. Good. No, you

58:35

see where I'm going. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but go ahead, finish your question. I

58:38

was gonna say my greatest fear is

58:40

that my son will someday know

58:43

the pain I felt. It's the

58:46

scariest thing in the world to me. And

58:48

if he does, I plan on being right

58:50

there on top of it. Well, I never heard you talk about your

58:52

brother before, so it

58:53

sounds like your parents had a challenge.

58:56

Between the two of us. Between the two

58:59

of us, they had a lot of things to sort out. That's right.

59:02

As Irish Catholics, I mean, I

59:04

was raised in Irish Catholics too. It's

59:06

a real moneymaker for you. The Irish Catholics

59:08

are real moneymakers for psychologists, I bet.

59:10

Yeah, yeah.

59:13

I do wanna say though that, and

59:16

as a therapist, I also kinda say to folks,

59:18

you know what, I'm the least important person in your

59:20

life.

59:21

And when we see kids,

59:23

both my husband and I, they're very committed

59:25

to this. We don't see just a six-year-old

59:28

by themselves

59:29

because we see them an hour a week at

59:32

most.

59:33

And I always say to the parents, you're the real

59:35

therapist. So you come in here at the session,

59:37

let's talk about this. Sometimes

59:40

I have them leave, or sometimes I have the kid

59:42

leave, but really, I see

59:45

parents and teachers, like they're

59:47

the ones who are in your life every

59:50

day, all day, right? So

59:52

those are the people who really need

59:54

to get the skills to

59:57

bring out the best in everybody.

59:59

to notice everybody.

1:00:03

So, you know,

1:00:05

so I think, you know, going to your question,

1:00:07

which I didn't allow you to finish was,

1:00:09

you know, you want, you want to keep talking

1:00:11

to Cal, right? You want, you guys are talking,

1:00:14

you're sharing information, you're

1:00:16

de-stigmatizing, you're in touch,

1:00:19

and then you won't be afraid.

1:00:21

I mean, I was afraid myself when,

1:00:23

you know, when I felt like my daughter needed

1:00:26

to see somebody in, when

1:00:28

she was in high school. And I was like, well, daughter

1:00:30

of mine can't go. I was

1:00:32

stigmatizing myself.

1:00:34

You know, but that was before I

1:00:36

went into private practice. I have to say I've learned so

1:00:38

much

1:00:39

about kind of working with the public. I

1:00:41

feel like a better

1:00:42

therapist. And

1:00:45

my joke with all parents are, you

1:00:47

know, oh, I became a really good

1:00:49

parent when the last one left the house,

1:00:52

because then I could stay calm,

1:00:54

cool, think through what I was

1:00:56

going to do, and then,

1:00:58

you know, deal with the situation. And

1:01:01

I think that's true. But part of that is, the older

1:01:03

you get, the more you learn, hopefully,

1:01:05

right, the better you are.

1:01:08

It's almost as if you're saying that if parents

1:01:10

dedicate themselves to being mentally healthy in

1:01:12

their own right, that they can be the front lines of making

1:01:14

sure that their kids are mentally healthy. It's

1:01:17

almost as if it could be that simple.

1:01:19

You know, I'm going to forget his name. Really

1:01:23

big guy in trauma. Oh, damn,

1:01:25

I'm going to forget his name. Anyway, I just took conference

1:01:28

from his, him a few, actually,

1:01:31

probably was two years ago now. And

1:01:33

he really talked about the

1:01:36

basis for mental health

1:01:38

being the parent-child interaction.

1:01:41

And that if a child is

1:01:43

growing up in a home

1:01:46

that's

1:01:46

safe and responsive

1:01:48

and protective and getting

1:01:50

help when needed, right, that

1:01:53

that really, that

1:01:55

is the fostering of mental health.

1:01:58

And I

1:01:58

could not agree with that.

1:01:59

that more. I

1:02:01

mean I think it really, I mean we've

1:02:03

been talking about education and doctors right, but to

1:02:05

go back even further to

1:02:07

just kind of supporting

1:02:10

young families,

1:02:12

that's really where it starts.

1:02:15

Yeah, I wish I could remember this guy's name. He's really important.

1:02:20

I'm gonna see if I can look it up. Now

1:02:22

I think

1:02:23

you even people have talked about him.

1:02:25

Go ahead.

1:02:26

I just want to say we only have three minutes left and

1:02:28

this one has really moved and

1:02:30

I just want to also, I want to apologize

1:02:32

to you because you called up and

1:02:34

told me what you do and I get very excited

1:02:36

about being able to talk to you, but I also know there's

1:02:39

probably a million stories left on the table

1:02:41

because I made it all about you and what you do and your opinions

1:02:44

on mental health and where it's at. So I do want to apologize

1:02:46

to you for that because I know you are more than just your profession

1:02:49

and

1:02:49

I know that you were boiled down to your profession

1:02:52

a little bit in the course of this hour

1:02:54

and I just want to say my bad on that. That's okay.

1:02:57

Now that's part

1:02:59

of what I called is that I just

1:03:02

wanted people to know that therapists

1:03:04

are not,

1:03:05

they don't consider themselves perfect,

1:03:07

they don't consider themselves mind readers. This

1:03:10

is a joint collaborative effort.

1:03:13

Again,

1:03:15

I always say to folks,

1:03:17

you're the one doing all the work. I'm just sitting

1:03:20

here listening to you, supporting you, giving you ideas

1:03:22

and all that, but you have the power to

1:03:24

make things different and I believe in you.

1:03:26

So that's kind of why I wanted

1:03:28

to call was just to kind of say that.

1:03:33

I think sometimes people look at me as

1:03:35

like I have my act together and

1:03:37

everything's perfect. Everything's not perfect by any

1:03:39

stretch. I wish I'd done things different

1:03:42

as a parent

1:03:43

and my daughter is now parenting

1:03:45

two little girls and I'm learning a lot about parenting

1:03:48

from her. So

1:03:49

that's really the

1:03:51

hope is that we're always learning.

1:03:53

But anyway, good, you're gonna say something else.

1:03:55

Apology accepted,

1:03:57

no problem. That was it. That was

1:03:59

it. wanted to make sure that's happened a few times

1:04:01

or somebody calls and I get excited about what they

1:04:04

do and then I go about what you

1:04:06

do is not who you are but you've

1:04:08

spoken so eloquently about it. And

1:04:11

I kind of also say this to I kind

1:04:13

of feel like in 2023. We

1:04:15

all need to touch base with this stuff. Yeah,

1:04:18

it's probably good for a lot of people to hear. And

1:04:21

I thank you for airing it

1:04:23

all out and it sounds like both you and your husband have

1:04:27

found a lot of joy and strength

1:04:30

together while also having

1:04:32

this mission that serves others in

1:04:35

a way that I'm really blown away by. Yeah,

1:04:38

I mean we we

1:04:40

we love doing this work.

1:04:43

Every day is absolutely meaningful. I

1:04:46

I can't quite imagine what it be to go to work

1:04:48

and it have it not be meaningful. I

1:04:50

again I feel very privileged

1:04:52

to do that I I did

1:04:54

get a lot of support and earning my

1:04:56

PhD from family.

1:04:59

So I appreciate that and I think

1:05:01

you know I will say this quickly

1:05:03

that I moved around a lot of the kid

1:05:06

we we moved like every couple years my

1:05:08

high school career is crazy freshman

1:05:10

years in Arizona sophomore year Connecticut

1:05:13

junior Georgia and I think

1:05:15

that that I think moving around

1:05:17

so much really kind of keep me

1:05:19

into loneliness and what it was like to

1:05:21

kind of start a fresh

1:05:23

and make friends and feel

1:05:26

connected with different places so I

1:05:28

think that's been my mission for all

1:05:31

of my life.

1:05:32

Doctor I can't thank you enough for

1:05:34

doing what you do and for sharing it with

1:05:36

us.

1:05:37

And I bet there's going to be a lot of people who listen to it and

1:05:39

go.

1:05:41

I feel like I just got to hear a doctor

1:05:43

break it down almost in a way of like when

1:05:46

you're off the clock and it's more casual

1:05:49

and you don't have to have your guard up and be clinical. Here's

1:05:51

what doctors are thinking about in modern days about

1:05:54

mental health. I think yeah, I think that's

1:05:56

hugely valuable and I can't thank you enough.

1:05:58

Well my pleasure.

1:05:59

I'm really glad, that's really why I

1:06:02

called. And I remember the guy, I actually looked

1:06:04

it up, it's Bethel Vandelkolk,

1:06:07

K-O-L-K, have you heard of him? That's an

1:06:09

amazing name, Bethel Vandel?

1:06:11

I know, it is an amazing name, yeah.

1:06:13

Vandelkolk? Yeah,

1:06:16

V-A-N-D-E-R-K-O-L-K.

1:06:19

His

1:06:20

conference about trauma

1:06:22

is

1:06:23

absolutely amazing.

1:06:25

He is so smart

1:06:26

and it really comes down

1:06:29

to connections and having people not

1:06:31

be lonely.

1:06:32

So anyway, is that it, we're done? The

1:06:34

time is up? The time is, I have to say, that's a bomb

1:06:36

to drop. I just need to say, if you're gonna

1:06:39

be a psychiatrist

1:06:40

who's publishing this

1:06:42

cutting edge research, make your

1:06:44

name Bethel Vandelkolk. That

1:06:46

is a great name for a psychiatrist right

1:06:49

there. That's a great name

1:06:51

right

1:06:51

there. Yeah, well look him up, he's really big.

1:06:53

Yeah, and I'm sure he went through his own trauma. I

1:06:55

mean, he's from Europe, right? And he's older than me,

1:06:58

he's probably in his 70s. Anyway,

1:07:00

Chris, thank you for all you do. You are amazing

1:07:02

and just know that a lot of people,

1:07:04

not just me, yell at you every time you say really

1:07:07

self-deprecating

1:07:07

things. Well,

1:07:09

I have to imagine as a psychologist, you probably

1:07:11

listen to my self-deprecation and you go, this is

1:07:13

a problem. You keep

1:07:16

ripping the scabs off and not letting healing

1:07:18

happen and I'm sure

1:07:20

you hear it and I know it's true. I know it's

1:07:22

true.

1:07:23

I know. Well, anyway,

1:07:25

you do a great job. Thank you so much for being in

1:07:27

this world. Thank you for being in this world

1:07:29

and thank you for helping so many people. All right.

1:07:39

Caller, thank you so much. Sincerely,

1:07:42

thanks for doing everything you do. Thanks for helping the six-year-olds.

1:07:45

Thanks for helping the 86-year-olds. Thanks for helping

1:07:47

everybody in between. Thanks to Anita

1:07:49

Flores for producing the show. Thanks to Jared

1:07:51

O'Connell for engineering. The theme song is

1:07:54

by Shell Shag. Go to chriskeff.com

1:07:56

if you want to know more about me. Wherever you're listening,

1:07:58

you can hit this button. It says subscribe.

1:07:59

favorite, follow. It helps

1:08:02

us so much when you hit that button.

1:08:04

You can find our latest merch at Pod Swag. If

1:08:07

you want your episodes ad-free, go to Stitcher.com

1:08:09

slash premium. Use the code STORIES for

1:08:12

a 1-month free trial and if you like the show,

1:08:14

the best thing you can do, tell friends

1:08:16

about it. Word of mouth is the best type of

1:08:18

advertising. Thanks, everybody.

1:08:36

When you're behind the wheel,

1:08:38

it's okay to rock out to your music,

1:08:41

but it's not okay to interact with your phone

1:08:43

screen and electronic devices while

1:08:45

driving. In most cases, anything

1:08:47

more than a single touch or swipe is

1:08:50

against the law. That means no

1:08:52

texting, no typing, no scrolling,

1:08:55

no shopping, no browsing. If

1:08:58

an officer sees a violation, they can

1:09:00

pull you over. So remember,

1:09:02

Ohio, phones down. It's

1:09:04

the law.

1:09:07

Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's.

1:09:10

Are you starting to feel the heat? Don't sweat

1:09:12

it. McDonald's has just the thing to cool you

1:09:14

down.

1:09:15

Right now, get any size frozen carbonated

1:09:17

beverage for just $1.79. Enjoy

1:09:19

a classic Coca-Cola or blue raspberry frozen

1:09:22

carbonated beverage or try the new Sprite

1:09:24

Lemonade frozen carbonated beverage.

1:09:26

For just $1.79, any size,

1:09:28

you can beat the heat with a delicious treat. Price

1:09:30

and participation may vary. Cannot be combined

1:09:33

with any other offer.