1:01

My guest today is Dana

1:04

S Diaz . Dana

1:06

is a wife , mother and author of the bestselling

1:08

book Grasping for Air

1:10

the stronghold of

1:13

narcissistic abuse . Dana

1:15

has had a lifelong experience

1:18

with narcissistic abuse

1:20

, beginning in childhood . Her

1:23

education in journalism and

1:25

psychology at DePaul University

1:27

, chicago , gave her the ability

1:30

to accurately verbalize and express how

1:33

narcissistic abuse creates confusion

1:35

and conflict within victims , so

1:38

that she can help other victims know that

1:40

they are not alone and better

1:42

understand their own circumstances . Today

1:44

, dana is a proud

1:46

voice for fellow victims who are unable

1:49

or afraid or

1:51

ashamed to share their experiences

1:53

. She strives to create awareness

1:56

and understanding to ensure victims are given the

1:58

support they need to first understand

2:00

their situation and then begin

2:02

the healing process . Her first

2:04

book chronicling her own abusive marriage that

2:07

lasted nearly three decades started

2:09

a journal that she hid

2:11

under her couch cushion in the basement . Dana

2:14

lives with her husband , illinois , and is

2:16

in the process of publishing her prequel

2:19

and sequel to Grasping

2:21

for Air . We welcome Dana

2:23

to the podcast . Dana

2:27

, it's so good to have you on today . How are you doing ?

2:31

I'm doing very well , thank you . How are you

2:33

doing over there ?

2:33

I'm doing great . It's a little warm today it's

2:36

40 , so we're enjoying the sunshine and watching the

2:38

snow melt

2:42

.

2:42

Same here , great .

2:46

I'd love to ask my guest a question to get to know

2:48

you a little bit better . What's the best piece

2:50

of advice you've ever received ?

2:54

All right , I don't know about the best

2:56

, because I think that

2:58

we all gather little bits

3:00

and pieces of life as we

3:03

go along in it , but I

3:05

think one of the biggest pieces

3:07

that comes from my great-grandma

3:10

. Actually , she always told

3:12

me to listen to my gut . She said

3:14

that was my guardian angel , whispering

3:16

in my ear Whenever you call

3:18

it , I have found that when I go against

3:21

it , things don't work out

3:23

as well as they could have . I'm

3:25

a firm believer in just

3:27

listening to that inner voice , or whatever

3:30

that is , that speaks to you . Just listen

3:32

to that gut .

3:33

Yeah , I agree with that that . Sometimes intuition

3:36

is a powerful thing , so

3:39

I agree with it . I

3:41

always like to ask my guest if you think about

3:43

the different phases of our lives . There are people

3:46

who drift in and out , but

3:48

who are some people that serve to maybe inspire

3:51

you in your life .

3:53

My great-grandma was the primary

3:56

influence for me , without

3:59

getting too deeply into my 48

4:02

years of life . It was because

4:04

she was my first and

4:09

perhaps my only

4:11

for decades experience

4:13

with love . Because

4:16

I was born to a mother

4:18

that she was a teenager , unwed

4:20

at a time that wasn't

4:23

socially acceptable . So

4:27

it was difficult having a

4:30

mother that was emotionally

4:32

detached from me and not

4:34

really soothing or nurturing or

4:36

encouraging or affectionate and all

4:38

these things you imagine a mother to be . But

4:41

my great-grandma , I was with her

4:43

for the first few years of my life

4:46

until my mother could

4:48

kind of get herself on her

4:50

feet for both of us . So

4:52

I really appreciated just

4:54

having that sense of what

4:56

motherhood really should be

4:58

and knowing what love was , because

5:00

the rest of my life , unfortunately

5:02

, I was in one abusive situation

5:04

after another . But I think what always

5:07

brought me back to myself

5:09

was remembering that I was worthy

5:11

of love and knowing what love

5:14

really looked like versus what

5:16

I was being shown .

5:18

Wow , that's powerful , because , especially when

5:20

you come from a difficult background , sometimes

5:22

there aren't those people that show you love

5:25

and so you have that at some

5:27

point in your life is something that's

5:29

invaluable to kind of be able to move us through

5:31

to see this is what it's supposed to look like

5:33

, exactly exactly . So

5:37

, dana , I'm always curious to kind of share

5:39

with us kind of your personal journey . I know part

5:41

of that's in your book , but whatever kind of helps

5:43

us to kind of get to how

5:45

you got up to where you wrote your book .

5:48

Well , again , that's

5:50

like my lifelong story , but the

5:53

short version of that is that

5:55

, as I just mentioned , I came

5:57

out of not the greatest

5:59

kind of a childhood my mother

6:01

. I did go to live with her when

6:04

she met somebody that she was going to marry

6:07

. It was really

6:09

difficult , though , because he didn't want me anymore

6:11

than she did , and he was verbally and physically

6:14

abusive , and she

6:16

enabled and excused it

6:18

and sort

6:20

of tried to get me to submit and tolerate

6:22

it , like she

6:24

was , and I was just

6:26

a little girl . So , I mean , I sensed

6:28

it was wrong . I knew that people that say

6:30

they love you shouldn't treat you the way that

6:33

I was being treated , but it

6:35

was really difficult . More

6:37

than anything and I'm not dismissing

6:39

the severity that physical

6:41

abuse can

6:44

have an impact on the victim , but

6:46

for me the physical

6:48

was the least of my worries . It was

6:51

the verbal abuse of every day being

6:53

told that nobody

6:55

wanted me , that I shouldn't even exist

6:57

and that my stepfather would

6:59

say he shouldn't have to pay for another man's child

7:01

, and I was a burden , and my

7:03

existence was bothersome . And

7:06

, having been raised , my

7:08

great-grandma raised

7:10

me in the Catholic faith . So

7:13

I struggled with God through

7:16

a lot of my preteen and teen

7:18

years . If I was , I'd just

7:20

put here to suffer . If

7:22

this was my life , I mean , should

7:25

I even exist To

7:27

say that I wasn't depressed or anxious

7:30

and all the other things that you

7:32

feel in that kind of

7:34

a situation . So I struggled growing

7:36

up , but they definitely

7:38

didn't want me around it and I took

7:40

the hint and left as soon

7:42

as I legally could at 18

7:45

. And I

7:47

swore I was never going to let anyone treat

7:49

me like that again . But then , the

7:51

first person that came along because

7:53

I was so starved for any

7:56

bit of affection or

7:59

love . I went against that gut instinct

8:02

that the second I met him boy

8:05

, I felt it deep inside . I thought , oh

8:07

, he reminds me of my stepfather , that's

8:09

not a good thing . And

8:11

I told myself to walk away . But

8:13

there was nobody else . I

8:16

mean , I'm just going to say I was

8:18

young , I was desperate because nobody

8:21

else was giving me attention or the time

8:23

of day or anything and I lived

8:26

by myself in my own apartment

8:28

and I mean , my cat loved me

8:30

. But we all want that human interaction

8:33

and that affection of

8:35

another human , that connection , and

8:39

it's unfortunate I ended up spending

8:41

25 years of my life with that man

8:43

, despite how I felt

8:45

, because that gut instinct proved

8:49

right right from the beginning

8:51

and Would eventually

8:53

motivated me to write my book . Was

8:55

that , by the end of the 25 years

8:57

with him , what had actually

8:59

compelled me to end our

9:01

marriage was that I became

9:03

physically ill . I did not

9:05

realize that stress really could kill

9:07

you . But it came

9:10

to the point where I had spent over

9:12

a year having every test

9:14

done , going every Specialist

9:16

the amount of money that

9:18

that I spent on all this , just

9:20

for every doctor to throw their arms

9:22

up and say we don't know , we , we can't figure

9:24

it out . We can give you a pill for your symptom

9:26

. But I had two dozen symptoms

9:28

. It was at the point where I had a spreadsheet

9:31

of my random symptoms

9:33

because nobody could figure out how

9:35

they were all related . They were cardiovascular

9:38

, neurological , you

9:41

know , digestive , muscular

9:43

, everything . My body was in an influx

9:45

. But what was most

9:47

alarming to me was that I had dropped down

9:50

to 93 pounds within two

9:52

weeks . I mean I always was small

9:54

and I always was healthy , but

9:56

93 pounds is . I

9:58

was skeletal . That's a Halloween

10:00

decoration , that's not a 40-some-year-old

10:03

woman . I also could not breathe

10:06

. I couldn't . My vision was going

10:08

, I was blacking out . I , my hands

10:10

were going numb . I

10:12

mean my to say , my digestive system

10:14

was slow . I mean it just wasn't

10:17

functioning at all . I was having heart

10:19

issues . It finally

10:21

took a neurologist and a functional

10:23

medicine doctor to Figure

10:26

out . They got me with Mayo Clinic . Mayo

10:28

Clinic Figured out that I had so

10:31

much cortisol , which is a stress hormone

10:33

, running through me , and

10:35

at such high rates for so

10:38

long decades really , since my

10:40

childhood that I had become autoimmune

10:42

. My white blood cells had thought

10:44

that they there was something in my body they

10:46

had to eradicate that they eradicated

10:49

themselves . So I was autoimmune

10:51

and then the scratchiness you hear in my voice

10:53

is a lung syndrome . Never smoked

10:55

a cigarette in my life . I

10:58

I've been a runner for many , many years

11:00

, even coached cross-country for nine years

11:02

at my son's grade school . But

11:05

here I am with a lung disease that the doctor

11:07

says is like having COPD and fibromyalgia

11:10

all at once , which sort of

11:12

connected all the dots of all these symptoms

11:14

I was having . But the sad thing was

11:16

is that there was no pillar surgery

11:19

anybody could give me that . I had

11:21

three doctors say it's your

11:23

lifestyle that needs to change . There's some

11:25

part of your life Causing you

11:27

all this distress that you

11:29

know you have to make a change . And that's

11:32

when I realized , you

11:34

know , was actually that night , after one

11:36

of my doctors sat me down and said your

11:38

body is dying . You you are Barely

11:41

living . Your body's doing everything

11:44

just to keep your heart beating and your lungs

11:46

going . But he said this

11:48

isn't life . You need to really think

11:50

about what you want and

11:52

and how you want to live , because this

11:54

is gonna end up taking your life if you don't

11:57

. And that's when I realized

11:59

that I had to have enough self-respect

12:01

and self-love to

12:03

get myself out of my situation . I thought

12:06

I was being a faithful person

12:08

by staying in a marriage , especially when

12:10

I had known what I'd gotten myself into . I

12:12

thought I was being noble by keeping the family

12:15

together for our son . I thought I

12:17

was , you know , making a sacrifice

12:19

, I guess , of my life . You know , being the sacrificial

12:22

lamb , so to speak . You know , to just

12:24

keep peace and keep things going

12:26

, and you know , but

12:29

it wasn't worth my life , and when I really

12:31

thought about it , I had to believe that

12:33

God would forgive me , and in

12:36

the end , the beautiful thing was

12:38

was that , you know , here

12:40

I was sick . Covid

12:42

hit right about this point , because this was early

12:44

in 2020 . We went into

12:46

a shelter in place so I couldn't file

12:49

for divorce because the courts were closed down

12:51

. They were backed up anyway

12:53

, and I was stuck in the house

12:55

with this man and he had made threats

12:58

against my life . On top of everything else

13:00

. The abuse had escalated

13:02

to the point of Domestic violence

13:04

in fact , and so I was actually

13:07

afraid that he was going to kill me , make

13:09

it look like an accident . It was COVID

13:11

, so who would know ? Who would question it

13:13

? The world had bigger things to worry about

13:15

, so I started keeping a journal

13:18

of everything that was going on , and that

13:21

journal is essentially what became my

13:23

book , which covers that 25 years

13:26

that I spent with him , from start

13:28

to finish . And

13:30

it was done because I think that people don't

13:32

realize that you know , not just listening

13:34

to your gut , but listening to your body

13:37

, because my body was like screaming

13:39

out . You know

13:41

that , that we needed help , that that

13:43

the situation was toxic and

13:46

it wasn't healthy . And

13:48

the beautiful thing to bring this back to

13:50

God honestly was that , as

13:52

a faithful person who had been so worried

13:55

about Committing this terrible sin

13:57

of , you know , getting a divorce , at

13:59

least in my faith , that was what the

14:01

consideration I realized

14:03

that God had actually

14:05

put this all in my

14:08

path . To begin with , he

14:10

had meant for me to be here , absolutely

14:13

100% , despite what my stepfather

14:15

said . He had put me in that situation

14:17

. He had put me in my abusive

14:19

marriage . He had also made

14:22

sure that , instead of going to beauty school

14:24

, that I was put at DePaul University , where

14:27

they discovered that I was good at writing

14:29

and good at speaking . So I ended up

14:31

in the journalism program . I

14:33

just hadn't been able to pursue

14:35

a career in writing . So here

14:38

I was at the end of this marriage , with

14:41

all this Wisdom , I

14:43

suppose that I had learned throughout

14:45

and I had the ability to verbalize

14:48

that and and accurately , accurately

14:50

expressed that . So that's what I did

14:52

. I took my journal and

14:54

I made the story

14:56

of what had happened

14:58

to me and , you know , hoping

15:00

that I could reach another woman

15:03

, or maybe even men , because this happens to men

15:05

too . You know , so that maybe they would

15:07

understand they're not alone , but also

15:09

to know that there are consequences

15:12

. You're not being noble by disrespecting

15:14

your body , you're not doing any you

15:16

know faithful thing by staying in

15:18

a situation that's killing you , because nobody

15:21

was meant to suffer like that , you

15:23

know . And , more importantly , I wanted to serve

15:25

as an example of you know

15:27

, being able to come out of the circumstances

15:29

and , at 45 years old , start

15:31

completely over in life as a single

15:34

mother , you know , with

15:36

a kid about to go off to college himself

15:38

, and that I could rise above

15:40

everything . Because the beauty is

15:43

, it's been only three years and four

15:45

months since the divorce

15:47

and I have made

15:49

a lot of changes in that time

15:52

. I mean my son and I have it , you

15:54

know , probably within a six-month period

15:56

. You know we moved . He graduated

15:59

from high school , he went to college

16:01

, I got remarried , I all

16:03

these , all these things happen

16:05

. But boy are we resilient

16:07

because we're standing strong and , honestly

16:09

, we're doing

17:05

better than upper . And I don't think that's unique

17:07

to me . I think everybody has the

17:09

ability to do that . They just have to choose

17:11

that and and realize

17:14

that maybe all these Impediments

17:16

to their , to their life , or that

17:18

, whatever hindrances they've they've had

17:20

to overcome . Maybe they were put there for

17:22

a reason because I truly believe that the

17:25

first 45 years of my life

17:27

was meant exactly To be

17:29

what it was , so that it could prepare

17:31

me To be able to understand

17:33

things in a way and express them in

17:35

a way that other people couldn't . Because

17:38

it's helping a lot of people now , and I'm

17:40

so grateful for that .

17:42

I'm always curious of somebody who does get out of a

17:44

situation like that . How

17:46

did you do it ? Because you

17:48

seem like you're trapped in a house with someone who was

17:51

threatened to do you harm . How

17:53

do you , how did you get out of that ? For people who are

17:55

listening going I want to get out . I know I need

17:57

to get out , but maybe something about the way

17:59

you got out may inspire someone else .

18:05

Well , I got lucky . To be honest , however

18:07

, I was preparing because I did

18:09

not think I was going to get lucky

18:11

, so I will briefly

18:14

explain first how I was preparing

18:16

. It's unfortunate I was

18:18

preparing for about 15 years because

18:21

I just I was hoping

18:23

for change of course , but

18:25

when none was affected , I knew I

18:27

had to just be prepared when you are

18:29

in a situation and certainly I

18:31

have heard some horrific stories of

18:34

people that have been in much , much worse

18:36

situations than I was in , but

18:38

I think I've always told my son the number

18:40

one rule of life is to be prepared . And

18:43

so what I did and it's such a simple

18:45

thing , but I ordered from

18:48

Walmart for $50,

18:50

. They have a little fireproof , waterproof

18:52

safe that has a handle . It's

18:55

not much bigger than a purse that

18:57

a woman would carry and you

18:59

know it has some weight to it , but it's . I

19:01

was 93 pounds and I could carry

19:04

it just fine , but what I did was

19:06

I was stashing money away

19:08

in there . You know , when grandma

19:10

would send me $30

19:12

for my birthday , I'd put it in there . Or , you

19:14

know , whatever if I got bonus at

19:16

work , I'd put it in there . I was

19:18

making sure I had , and it didn't matter if it

19:20

was $100 or $10,000

19:23

, just to have something , to know that

19:25

my son and I , if we had to pick up and

19:27

run , we could eat , maybe I

19:29

could afford a hotel room somewhere , we

19:31

could go to Goodwill and buy clothes . I just

19:33

needed something . So I stashed money

19:35

. But what I also put in there , which is more

19:37

important , is all of our documents

19:40

, you know , like our birth certificates

19:42

. I don't think I needed my passport

19:45

, but I put it in there anyway just anything

19:47

that I didn't have to

19:50

worry about coming back to the house for

19:52

. Because if we were in a situation

19:54

and I needed to grab and go , I

19:57

needed to grab and go . I need I could

19:59

replace clothes , I could replace

20:01

things . Anything

20:04

can be replaced , but my life and my son's

20:06

life could not be replaced

20:08

. But unfortunately , if

20:10

you want to go and you know

20:13

access anything or

20:15

open accounts , you do need

20:17

to have some pertinent information . So

20:19

I just thought it was really important , like

20:21

a photocopied even my driver's license

20:24

, put it in there , any

20:26

kind of records that I have , like financial

20:29

accounts . I made a list of all my

20:31

passwords , you know , for things , just

20:33

anything that's super important

20:35

that I didn't have to return for

20:37

when in that little safe , and I hid it , he

20:40

didn't know I had it . I even moved

20:42

to the hiding place every so often

20:44

so that just in case he might

20:46

have discovered it . You know he

20:48

, but he needed a key to get in it , which

20:50

was a whole other thing , and I hid the key

20:52

and I also alerted

20:55

a safe person , and that's

20:57

the other thing I'm going to suggest is have a safe

20:59

person . What

21:02

I did with my safe person number one

21:04

was I made sure that she knew where

21:06

my safe and the key was at all times

21:09

so that if something happened to me , she

21:11

would at least be able to access those

21:13

things for my . You know , as far

21:15

as having guardianship for my son and

21:18

that's the other thing I did as well is I

21:20

made sure that somebody was set up as

21:22

a guardian legally for my son , because

21:25

I didn't want it to be the man I was married to

21:27

and our marriage was just legal

21:29

at that point . But I was terrified

21:32

, you know , that he would , you know

21:34

, have to raise my son if

21:36

something happened to me and I , over my

21:38

dead body , literally , was I going to allow

21:40

that . So I established guardianship

21:43

legally . He didn't have to know anything about that

21:45

. He never did , probably still doesn't know

21:47

, but I just kind of put

21:49

everything in place . I

21:52

also set up with the safe person that

21:54

every morning by , let's say , I think

21:56

it was 9am , I had

21:59

to make sure to text or email

22:01

her in some way to say we're

22:03

good , have a great day . If she

22:05

was not , if she had

22:07

not heard from me , she was to alert

22:10

authorities to do a wellness check . So

22:12

having these things in place

22:14

at least made me know that

22:16

we were prepared to escape at any

22:18

time if we had to and

22:21

if something did happen to me

22:23

. I knew my son was the beneficiary

22:26

to my accounts and my life insurance

22:28

and that he had a guardian set up for

22:30

that purpose , you

22:32

know . So everything would be taken care

22:34

of the way that I wanted it to . I

22:37

realized that it's much more difficult

22:40

for people with multiple children

22:42

or , you know , maybe you don't have somebody

22:44

you can go to , but I promise you , in

22:46

every community there is somebody

22:49

willing to step up for you , whether it's

22:51

at your church , at your work , a family

22:53

member , somebody is willing

22:55

to help you .

22:57

I love that you use a

23:00

term in your in the heading of your book a

23:02

narcissistic abuse . Can you define

23:04

what that is ? I've heard of abuse before , but I'm not heard

23:07

those two words to those two terms together .

23:10

Yeah well , I'm glad you asked that because

23:12

a lot of people get messed up

23:14

by the term . All it is is when a

23:16

narcissist abuses you . The

23:18

problem with narcissistic abuse

23:20

specifically is that narcissists

23:23

will use any and all

23:25

methods of abuse to

23:27

manipulate you , so like in my childhood

23:30

honestly , looking back , I

23:32

mean there is no question my

23:34

stepfather is absolutely

23:36

the king of all narcissists . However

23:40

, the man I married the

23:42

first time around is what we call a covert

23:44

narcissist , so his narcissism

23:47

was expressed differently . He

23:49

was more subtle and seemingly

23:52

humble about the way that he went

23:54

about getting this admiration and

23:56

praise from others . But

23:59

they will use physical abuse , verbal

24:01

, psychological , emotional

24:04

, legal abuse , sexual

24:06

abuse , financial abuse . There

24:08

are so many abuses , and

24:11

that doesn't even include the manipulation

24:14

tactics like the silent treatment

24:16

and gaslighting . They

24:19

isolate their victims

24:21

, keeping them away from friends and family

24:23

, keeping them away from outside influence

24:26

, like me even moving

24:28

them very far away from

24:30

everyone and everything , so that they

24:33

are the only one . You depend on them

24:35

for social interaction , for

24:37

love and affection , for direction

24:39

, for guidance , to basically dictate

24:42

everything , every

24:44

part of your life , down to what

24:46

you say , what you can do , what you can

24:48

wear , what you can read . It

24:51

is so restrictive

24:53

in so many ways , and

24:56

it's no wonder that I felt

24:58

dead inside because myself

25:00

, my unique personality

25:03

and the things that made

25:06

me who I was were taken

25:08

away . He wanted a stepford

25:10

wife , basically just like my

25:12

stepfather had wanted me

25:14

to play this role a certain

25:16

way , to come off as his

25:18

daughter and not as a stepdaughter

25:21

. Nobody was supposed to know , and I had

25:23

to deny my Puerto Rican heritage

25:25

and I had to deny my biology

25:27

, and there's nothing wrong

25:30

with being exactly who you are , and

25:33

that's another takeaway from all this is

25:35

that people need to understand that if

25:37

somebody ever wants to change you

25:39

or make you different

25:42

than who you are flaws and

25:44

all then that's

25:46

not a healthy relationship to be in

25:48

. But certainly there is a spectrum

25:50

of narcissism and

25:53

I want to be clear about that as well . I

25:55

always liken it to tumors , because it's

25:57

something people can understand . When

25:59

you have a benign tumor in your body

26:01

, it's just there , it's

26:04

not bothering you . Those

26:06

are , like the people that you know

26:08

, really the perception of narcissism

26:10

that's commonly known . These

26:12

are the people on social media that are taking

26:14

pictures of themselves and they do look

26:16

fabulous . You cannot hate on them . Might

26:19

be annoying at times , but you

26:21

know , they really do look good . And in

26:23

fact the word narcissist comes from

26:26

the name of the Greek God narcissist

26:28

, who stared at his

26:30

reflection in the pond because he was just so

26:32

in love with how he looked . But

26:34

this other aspect of narcissism

26:37

, which is unfortunately the part

26:39

that I've had to deal with multiple times , are

26:41

like malignant tumors , malignant narcissists

26:44

. They cause you problems , they

26:46

might even kill you and you have to

26:48

remove them . There is no way out

26:51

of a relationship with them except

26:53

to just cut them out completely .

26:55

That's very helpful to define it because I know people

26:58

are going , I know what nurses I need to be carefully

27:00

, maybe abusive , so I'm glad you you separated

27:02

those two things .

27:04

Yeah , and you know , and I tell people to

27:06

not to get too caught up in the labels

27:08

and the names , because your

27:11

moral compass is going to tell you what's right

27:13

and wrong and if somebody's not treating

27:15

you right , I don't care what

27:17

you call it . Wrong is wrong , abuse

27:20

is abuse , exactly .

27:22

There are people listening to this podcast going . Why

27:26

do people stay ? And I think that's the hardest

27:28

question for those who have not gone through

27:30

it is why don't you just leave ? Can

27:33

you just kind of help people who don't understand

27:35

why people don't get away , why

27:38

they get stuck in those situations ?

27:43

Absolutely . There's two parts to that

27:45

answer . The first part is

27:47

applicable to anybody

27:49

, in any situation . You

27:51

know , the thing is , narcissists aren't

27:54

always just in romantic relationships

27:56

. They're your boss at work . They

27:58

might even be , you know , the coach

28:00

of your kids little league team they're

28:02

. They're everywhere in your community , they're

28:04

at your church , they're , they're all

28:07

over the place . They're in your family . It's

28:10

not easy to walk away . When I was

28:12

a child and my narcissistic

28:14

stepfather was abusing me , I couldn't walk away . Even

28:17

when child services got involved . Guess

28:20

what ? Child services sent me

28:22

back home because they didn't believe

28:24

me , because my mother and stepfather

28:26

put on an act . You know

28:28

that . Oh poor them with the difficult

28:30

daughter who's accusing them of these horrible

28:33

things . So you can't

28:35

get out sometimes Now as an adult

28:37

, if we're talking about a romantic relationship

28:40

, whether it be a partnership or a marriage

28:42

of some sort again , obvious

28:45

reasons . If you have kids

28:47

I mean you know I only

28:49

had one , but still like I was

28:51

not leaving without my child , and at

28:53

that point he was a teenager . I

28:56

couldn't just pick him up like a two year old and

28:58

put him on my hip and walk out , and

29:00

even though he saw what was going on , I

29:02

couldn't be sure he was going to come with me , but

29:04

there was no way I was leaving

29:07

him either . There are

29:09

also , you know , financial reasons

29:11

. Not everybody can say , oh

29:14

yeah , I'll just go have a place

29:16

to live over here and pay my own

29:18

rent and pay my own , you know utilities

29:20

and I can afford food and a whole

29:23

other life . Most people

29:25

, they say , in this country , are $400

29:27

away from bankruptcy , according to a

29:29

study from last year . So how

29:31

are people going to afford another place to live ? Women

29:35

, specifically , are afraid

29:37

that the spouse

29:40

that they have left is going to retaliate

29:42

by taking custody of

29:44

the children , and that happens

29:46

a few , too many times . I

29:49

don't know about anyone else , but I

29:51

, you know , I understand it works both

29:53

ways , whether you're a mother or father , but

29:56

the thought of not being

29:58

there when my son woke up

30:00

every morning and went to bed every night

30:02

, it just was not comprehensible

30:04

to me . And then there's other factors

30:06

too . Your families are intertwined , like I said

30:09

, your finances . But you also have

30:11

to think about I don't even talk about this

30:13

in my book , but we lived on a farm . We had

30:15

cows , pigs and chickens , and

30:17

I had a dog that had epilepsy

30:20

and had seizures , grand mal seizures

30:22

every day , and she had lymphoma

30:24

. Oh , wow when was I going to take her ? No , shelter

30:27

was going to let me bring this sick dog . Yeah

30:29

, we didn't have enough room in the book for that , but

30:32

I mean I was not leaving her behind

30:34

because , you know , usually when people

30:36

are abusive to other humans , they're also

30:38

abusive to animals . It's

30:41

definitely prevalent , so there

30:43

was no way and I was not going to put her

30:45

down just because you know this

30:48

man was who he was . That

30:50

wasn't fair to her , you

30:52

know . So there's a gazillion reasons

30:55

. But now the other side of that

30:57

is what we call a trauma bond , and I'm

30:59

sure some people have heard of this

31:01

and that's something that's very

31:03

difficult to explain to somebody that has

31:05

not endured one . But it's basically

31:08

when you're abuser , there's always this

31:10

push and pull they love

31:12

you , they have manipulated you

31:14

into a situation where

31:16

you know that after

31:19

those rough times , they're going to tell you they

31:21

love you . They're going to tell you they promise to be

31:23

better and they're so sorry and everything

31:25

else . Or maybe they don't . But you

31:27

know , you have come to be

31:30

manipulated to think that basically

31:33

, the sun rises and sets with them . You

31:36

are nothing and nobody . Without them , you

31:39

can't be anything . Without them , you will

31:41

never survive out in the world without

31:43

them . And I know this sounds ridiculous

31:45

to people because even in my life I had

31:47

, I had a couple of people come up to me and

31:50

say , oh , you need to be stronger . And

31:52

I took offense to that because I was . No

31:54

, I'm not a weak . I'm not a

31:56

weak woman . It takes a stronger

31:58

woman or man to stay

32:00

in a situation like that every damn

32:03

day of their life . Excuse me , but it's

32:06

suffering . It is a suffering

32:08

nobody can understand . And you

32:10

do it because you're trying to keep peace

32:12

for your child , you're trying to keep

32:14

peace for yourself and maintain

32:17

some sense of sanity , and you are

32:19

hoping and you are praying that this person

32:21

grows up or has some

32:23

epiphany , that you know that

32:25

they're wrong to go about

32:27

life this way and that everything will be

32:29

okay . And in the midst of all

32:32

this misery , they are loving

32:34

you and they're making these promises

32:36

and so this bond

32:38

that's created in going through these

32:40

horrible instances

32:42

of abuse and then feeling

32:45

these overwhelming emotions

32:47

of love and like everything's going to be

32:49

okay and they're holding you and you I

32:51

mean . I even said at one point in

32:53

my book which sounds crazy to

32:55

people that haven't been there but at

32:58

one point I felt unsafe

33:01

and it's like I ran back home

33:03

to him , the man who was strong , arming

33:05

me and who intimidated me and threatened

33:07

me and wanted me dead . But

33:09

I felt safe with

33:11

him and within the confines of

33:13

our house , because I was made to

33:16

feel that way . I was made to feel

33:18

that that was just , that was

33:20

my home , that was my

33:22

security , there with him . So

33:25

to tell somebody that's like taking a

33:27

baby away from its mother . You

33:30

know to say , oh , just leave

33:32

. Or why didn't you just leave ? It

33:34

doesn't you want to . You

33:36

know it's not right , you want things

33:38

to be different . You don't want to live that

33:41

way , but you're . There's

33:43

actually even chemical , you

33:45

know , responses in your body that

33:47

are like addictions , like telling

33:50

an alcoholic to just stop

33:52

drinking beer , just stop drinking alcohol

33:54

. It doesn't work that way

33:57

. You actually , mentally and

33:59

biologically , are

34:01

addicted in a way to this

34:03

person and to that situation .

34:06

Wow , I want

34:08

to ask this because I want to get to the whole part , because

34:10

there is a good side that came out of it for you .

34:12

Yes , yes .

34:14

What did the healing process look like

34:16

for you ?

34:21

It , it . It's not pretty . I

34:23

don't want to . I think people think

34:25

that they're going to decide I'm going to heal

34:28

now and they're going to go to sleep and some

34:30

magical fairy dust is going to be sprinkled

34:33

upon them and they'll wake up smiling

34:35

and it's sunshine and rainbows and oh

34:37

, I wish it was that way . It's nasty

34:39

, it's ugly , it's like . It's

34:43

like the earth opens up under you

34:45

and the spawns

34:47

of hell come in and reach up

34:49

and drag you down into it . When

34:52

you decide to heal , first

34:55

of all , I'm going to tell everybody what

34:57

worked for me and what I really

34:59

highly recommend is make

35:02

sure that you are in the

35:05

right space physically , like

35:07

your environment , and mentally

35:09

, where you feel safe , because

35:12

healing is not not for the

35:14

, the , the weak minded or the weary

35:17

. It's not something you can

35:19

do if you're still in that toxic

35:21

situation . That would be like asking

35:23

a flower to grow and bloom in

35:26

dry soil with no sunshine

35:28

and no water . It's not possible

35:30

. So you need to be safe

35:33

. I could not even think

35:35

about starting to heal until I was

35:37

moved out of the house that we

35:39

shared . The divorce was done

35:41

, there was no contact . I needed to

35:43

be completely away from the situation

35:45

physically and then

35:48

mentally , because I was now

35:50

in a place where I felt safe

35:52

and I had people surrounding

35:55

me that I knew would not

35:57

abandon me or reject me for

35:59

whatever occurred

36:01

and however I might act

36:04

or react to

36:06

the healing process . Then I

36:08

was ready to begin and where I

36:10

started was with myself . I

36:12

always liked to start things with

36:15

some good premise , a good foundation

36:17

, so I had to start by

36:19

. You know , people call it self love , but

36:22

it was just I called it , depositing

36:24

just little happy things into my happy

36:26

jar every day . And it's just little

36:29

stuff you can do at home , like maybe I didn't

36:31

want to cook dinner , maybe I just wanted to pint

36:33

of butter pecan ice cream instead

36:36

, and I indulged that . And

36:38

if I wanted to paint my nails , or if I wanted

36:40

to just go take a walk along the river

36:43

and just hear the birds

36:45

and listen to the water and just be

36:47

present with nature and

36:50

calm and soothe myself , whatever it

36:52

is , just give yourself

36:54

those little doses of happiness , because

36:56

if you're in a good place mentally

36:59

, you're going to be better able to

37:02

go through the healing . But the healing

37:04

itself is different for everybody , but

37:06

you're basically sticking

37:08

your hand right in the lion's mouth . You

37:10

are voluntarily going

37:13

back in your head to

37:15

the core and just digging

37:17

deeper and deeper and deeper into

37:20

everything that happened to you , trying to

37:22

understand it , make sense of it

37:24

, see different perspectives on

37:27

it , even see how you might have

37:29

been contributing to it or participating

37:31

in it unconsciously

37:33

, and so you can understand

37:35

how not to do that in the future and how

37:38

not to get caught in these terrible dynamics

37:41

. You know , in another relationship . So

37:44

it's an ugly thing , but

37:46

there are so many options

37:49

for people . Now I think people traditionally

37:51

think about talk therapy . But you

37:54

know again , not everybody can afford something

37:56

like that and it's not effective . It wouldn't

37:58

have been effective for me to rehash all

38:00

these things with somebody who may

38:03

or may not have understood it . I

38:05

think it's just a matter of doing

38:09

what resonates with you . As a writer

38:11

, writing therapy was ridiculously

38:15

effective and I

38:17

think also letting

38:19

myself , putting myself

38:21

intentionally in situations

38:24

with people who were going to trigger

38:26

me and upset me and cause

38:28

me to feel the anxiety that I was feeling

38:32

, was forcing me to

38:34

self regulate and forcing

38:36

me to deal with really

38:38

heavy feelings and really intense

38:41

reactions , even physically . But

38:44

the more I did it , the

38:47

more I was able to overcome

38:49

it . And the more I was able to overcome

38:51

it , the stronger I felt inside

38:53

, and you know the taller I

38:56

stood . And you know , having

38:58

that , that love for yourself and that

39:00

respect for yourself , and

39:02

then finding that strength

39:04

within yourself , boy , that's something

39:07

nobody can take from you , no matter who

39:09

it is , and that will definitely keep you out

39:11

of those situations in the future .

39:14

So now you've gone through all of that , I'm curious

39:16

what are you most excited about

39:18

in this season of your life ?

39:23

You know , I think I'm just excited

39:25

that I have

39:27

options and that I'm free to do

39:29

as I please , because you know , going

39:32

back to my personal , I spent

39:34

45 years of my life having

39:36

everything , everything dictated

39:39

to me . This was what I was going to

39:41

do , this is what I was studying in

39:43

school , this is what I was going to do for work

39:46

. Like I said down to you know , my ex

39:48

would tell me what lipstick I couldn't couldn't

39:50

wear and what music I couldn't , couldn't listen

39:52

to , and he didn't like me reading books . I

39:55

didn't even have a smartphone until after that

39:57

marriage . And you know , to be

39:59

free , I mean , I'm a grown woman , I'm

40:01

college educated , I've traveled

40:03

the world . Like , I can make my own

40:05

decisions , I'm of sound mind and

40:08

everybody , I think , is

40:10

free to live the

40:12

life that they want and I

40:15

love that . At 45 , I could start

40:17

over as a single mother and

40:21

created in you

40:23

know , three years time , the life that I

40:25

had always wanted . I had always wanted

40:28

to write and I published a book

40:30

. I've got two more books I've

40:32

already written that are coming out later this

40:34

year , if I ever get done with revisions

40:37

that the publisher wants on them . And you

40:39

know , I am remarried and

40:41

in a very surprisingly

40:43

healthy relationship . I wasn't even

40:46

sure I was capable of having

40:48

a healthy relationship romantically

40:50

and I am

40:52

, and I'm just so grateful that this

40:55

man had been there all along

40:57

. I just had never seen it not that I

40:59

should have , because I was busy being married

41:01

and dealing with a lot of other stuff . But

41:03

you know , it's such a beautiful

41:05

thing to be able to just

41:07

write a new chapter , so

41:09

to speak , and just say , okay , that stuff

41:12

happened . It definitely

41:14

taught me a lot , taught

41:16

me lots of lessons and

41:18

it made me who I am . And I'm not

41:21

ashamed of any of it . I'm not ashamed

41:23

for how I lived and what I dealt with

41:25

and what I endured , nor am I

41:27

ashamed for the consequences

41:30

of any of it . I think , again , we're all

41:32

uniquely different and

41:35

it's our flaws and our strengths

41:37

and you know , everything we have to

41:39

offer the world that makes each one of us so

41:41

beautiful inside , and what

41:44

we outwardly express , you

41:46

know , to others is just even

41:49

more astounding . So I

41:51

think it's just having that vision and

41:53

going for it . I don't care who

41:55

you are , where you are . One of the most

41:58

inspiring people I've met recently

42:00

was an 83

42:03

year old man that decided

42:05

when he was 80 years old that

42:07

he was going to publish one book a year . And

42:10

at 83 , he has published three books so

42:12

far and he is continuing

42:15

on . And I love that spirit

42:17

, because so many of us limit

42:19

ourselves or we let

42:21

other people or societal

42:24

you know expectations

42:26

or you know restrictions in

42:28

and of itself tell us what

42:30

we can and can't do . But you're

42:33

in charge , you know , other

42:35

than God . God , god is giving you the tools

42:37

. I mean , am I ever going to go to the moon ? Probably

42:40

not . You know , it sounds fun to

42:42

be an astronaut , but I'm not a science person

42:44

and I don't know if I want to go that far out of our

42:46

atmosphere . But I

42:49

was born to write , I was born

42:51

to communicate , something always wanted to do

42:53

, and here I am doing it and

42:56

it was always in me . It was just a matter

42:58

of me deciding that I was going to

43:00

indulge , what I

43:03

had always wanted and go for it

43:05

, no matter what the consequences

43:07

or what my resources were . If

43:09

it's meant to be , you will find

43:11

a way and it'll happen .

43:15

That leads me to my last question for you , and I love

43:17

to ask my guest this question .

43:19

Okay , what do you want your legacy to ? Be , so

43:26

that's a big question . That's

43:29

why it's the last one , my legacy is just

43:31

yeah , I bet you

43:34

know my legacy . I think more

43:36

than anything . Of course , I think of my son

43:39

when I think of a legacy , and I

43:41

want him to look at his mom

43:43

and look back at my life and

43:45

just be proud of me , that I

43:48

didn't let all

43:50

the naysayers tell me that I wasn't

43:52

meant to be alive and that I shouldn't have

43:54

ever been born and that , even though

43:56

my mother has said

43:59

that she would have had an abortion if she

44:01

could have , I was meant to be

44:03

here and I'm okay . I've

44:06

experienced pain , I've experienced

44:08

regret , we've all been through stuff

44:11

, but I

44:13

was meant to be here and I'm doing exactly

44:16

what my purpose has always been and

44:18

I'm happy . My soul is at peace

44:20

and I'm settled and

44:22

blessed in so many ways

44:25

. Just took me a little longer to get there

44:27

, whereas some people get it a little earlier

44:29

in their life . But I

44:31

think people need to understand that , no matter

44:33

what you've been through , you can

44:35

get past it , you can

44:37

move forward from it and you can

44:39

smile and you can experience

44:41

joy and you can be you . I

44:44

don't like hearing people say I'm broken

44:46

, I'm damaged , I suffered , I'm

44:48

a victim . No , live

44:50

your life . Live your life joyfully

44:53

, live your life fully , experience

44:55

life as you were meant to experience

44:58

it . Don't limit yourself with

45:00

those negative thoughts . I

45:02

just think it's really important to just

45:04

move forward , and everybody

45:07

has it within them .

45:09

That's great . So where can the sisters find your book

45:12

Grasping for Air the Stranglehold

45:14

of Narcissistic Abuse , and connect

45:16

with you on social media ?

45:20

Absolutely , you can

45:22

go on . Most people go on Amazon

45:24

we all love our Amazon driver or

45:27

you can . The eBook is also available

45:29

on Amazon or go to my website , danasdscom

45:32

. The link to buy the book is there

45:35

. You can also access my Facebook and Instagram

45:37

links . I do post content

45:40

every single day . Some is helpful

45:42

, some is funny , some are resources

45:45

, but I just try to

45:47

have our community of people together

45:49

. Whether you're somebody that has experienced

45:51

some form of trauma or abuse

45:53

, or just somebody who wants to be

45:56

there to support others in

45:59

their healing journey , it's really

46:01

important that , as humans , we

46:03

all serve each other and

46:05

help each other and support each other to get

46:08

there .

46:09

Well , dana , thank you for filling this space and

46:11

being a resource for people

46:13

who are going through the summer things

46:15

you went through , but also reminding

46:18

them that there is something on the other side sometimes

46:21

. And so to look for that

46:23

, to prepare for it and

46:25

to give them encouragement

46:27

that you can do that , I'm so glad you're there to kind of give

46:30

people that push to move forward

46:32

. So thank you for what you do .

46:35

Absolutely . Thank you so much and thank

46:37

you for having me . I really appreciate

46:39

it .

46:40

Thanks , Dana .