0:59

My guest today , joel Butchert . Joel

1:02

is the host of Philosophy Podcast

1:05

From Nowhere to Nothing , a

1:07

doctoral student in psychology , a

1:09

musician , a writer and painter , army

1:12

vet and business leader . We look

1:14

forward to having Joel on the podcast

1:16

. Well

1:20

, joel , good to have you on the podcast . How are you doing

1:22

today ?

1:24

Good yeah , thanks for having me on . I really appreciate it

1:26

.

1:26

I'm looking forward to it . I'd love to get my

1:28

guests kind of something to warm us up a little bit . What's

1:30

the best piece of advice you've ever received

1:33

?

1:35

Yeah , I think that probably

1:38

the best piece of advice I've ever received is you know , when I

1:40

was eight or nine years old , I

1:46

was hanging out with a bunch of my friends and we were just doing something dumb that

1:48

we weren't supposed to be and my dad caught us and he pulled me over and he

1:50

said hey , listen , he's like the things

1:52

that , um , you know when

1:54

you're , when you're young , you want to fit in , um

1:56

, but the things that that make

1:58

you special are the things that make you stick out . So

2:00

stop going along with the crowd . And

2:03

you know , if something's making you feel weird

2:05

, then then don't do it , right , and

2:07

um , that

2:12

sort of stuck with me . From that point on , you know , you start to view your friends a little

2:14

bit different . You know , after you have an experience where you go , I don't know this

2:16

, this seems kind of weird , I don't really like

2:18

this . And so it was nice to just have some affirmation

2:21

from your dad saying hey , listen , you don't

2:23

have to go along with these guys , just do

2:26

what your conscience tells you .

2:27

I like that . Yeah , it makes sense too , because following

2:30

the crowd doesn't always give you the best

2:32

results in life .

2:34

Yeah , yeah and , as a matter of fact , usually

2:36

it gives you the worst results . I

2:38

think we see that with kids all the time . Right , kids go to school

2:41

and kids want to fit in . You know they just want to

2:43

fit in , that's all they want to do . But

2:45

if you're a kid that fits in , then you become an adult

2:47

that , just you know , kind of

2:49

coasts through life . I think you know you got to

2:51

embrace the things that make you special and kind of follow

2:54

your passions and follow your conscience

2:56

and let yourself be the person

2:58

that you know you're supposed to be , rather

3:00

than just going along with whatever the mold

3:02

is , you know .

3:03

I love that . So think

3:05

about your life . Who's been the most crucial person

3:08

in your life and kind of tell us a little bit about them

3:10

kind of opportunity to give them a shout out about

3:12

you know what they meant to you .

3:15

Yeah , you know , I . I think that it it varies

3:18

over time and circumstance

3:20

. You know , um , life is such a varied thing . You know life is

3:22

such a varied thing . You know we have family and friends

3:25

and work , and

3:27

you know school , all these different situations

3:29

and social groups that we're in , and

3:31

I think that each group has people

3:34

that mentor you or that

3:36

help you along or that have a big influence

3:38

on you . So it's a little hard to pick out just

3:41

one . I think that if I had to pick just

3:43

one , I'd probably go with my mom , you

3:45

know cause she's been there since the beginning , um

3:48

, and she's had such a big impact in in several

3:50

different areas . You know , I was um , I

3:52

was homeschooled from

3:54

like the third grade on and

3:57

, um , you know it , it really

3:59

made a big difference in how I developed as

4:01

a person . Uh , cause

4:04

my mom just didn't see school as something we

4:06

did during the day . You know we'd we'd

4:08

go through the textbooks , we do all this stuff , but then after

4:10

that she'd take us to a museum , right

4:12

, and she'd say , man , look at these dinosaur

4:15

bones . Isn't this so cool ? Could you imagine this thing if

4:17

it was alive ? And you know , as a little kid

4:19

. Then all of a sudden you're running around the museum reading all

4:21

the placards and really you

4:23

know that just instilled with me this

4:26

curiosity and joy

4:28

for life , where all of a sudden you realize , man

4:30

, everything is interesting . You know , everything is

4:33

really cool . You know , and I don't know if

4:35

that's the sort of perspective I'd

4:37

have without that influence , you know .

4:39

Yeah , you're right . I love that about that , because we homeschool

4:42

our kids too , and

4:47

that's our goal to give them a sense of adventure and a desire to want to go further than just a typical

4:49

school would take you , but to kind of have you really kind

4:51

of , like you say , have that love of learning

4:54

. And everything in life is about a life lesson

4:56

. Every day is an education

4:58

. Every moment is an opportunity for you to learn

5:00

.

5:00

Yeah , yeah , exactly , you

5:02

know we're . Every moment . It's an opportunity

5:04

for you to learn . Yeah , yeah , exactly , you know where humans are learning machines . You know that's

5:06

what we do and and it's it's a really bad mindset to think , well , this

5:08

is something that I do between seven and three

5:11

, between the ages of five and eighteen

5:13

, because you know , as you go throughout life , we

5:15

all have stuff we have to learn every day . You know

5:17

we have to remember when appointments are , and we have

5:19

to learn new job responsibilities and and

5:22

you know , learn how people in our

5:24

lives work emotionally and

5:26

socially . And you know we're always learning

5:28

all the time , so it's not something you

5:30

can ever . You can ever stop or turn

5:32

off , so you might as well embrace it

5:35

and and and try to be the best you can at it

5:37

. I love it , so you gave

5:39

us a little bit

5:54

of your background

5:56

, but give us your story , tell us your journey . Little bit young

5:58

when I went , but , um , you know , I went

6:00

and by the end of the the

6:02

term there , the teacher said he seems to be

6:04

really smart , but he just he didn't say a single

6:07

word to anybody the whole time . So

6:09

he's , he's going to have to do it again . Um

6:11

, and a lot of people don't realize

6:13

this about me because I have a podcast

6:16

, but I am extremely introverted

6:18

, right , I I'm , I'm a quiet guy by nature

6:20

, so I'm not super outgoing . Um

6:22

, so it started there and then , uh

6:24

, you know , I was in school for for a few years

6:26

and , um , things went

6:28

pretty well , uh , but , but I got to third

6:30

grade and and my mom said , you know , I think that

6:32

you know the , the potential is there to do some

6:35

more . So she pulled me out and

6:37

um , and homeschooled me

6:39

and , uh , you know , and got me some tutors and

6:41

stuff for math later on and

6:54

I went to community college , got an associate's degree and then applied to

6:56

a four-year school and just saw the price tag and said I can't do this and

6:58

I'm not taking out student loans . So I

7:01

worked at McDonald's for a few years and during

7:03

that time time I did a lot of , um

7:05

, interesting things . That's when I learned all

7:07

how to play seven different instruments and

7:09

built a recording studio and release some albums

7:11

and , you know , learned how to paint and

7:13

do a lot of cool stuff . But but after

7:16

a couple of years I said , you know , man , going to

7:18

school is what I , I

7:24

really want to do . I love , I love learning , right , and uh , you know , growing up I've I thought

7:26

about joining the army and I go . Well , those

7:29

two things kind of relate , right , if I joined the army

7:31

, I know I can go to school . So um

7:33

joined the reserves and uh

7:35

went back to school and got a

7:37

, uh , a master's degree in education and

7:39

now I'm working on a PhD in psychology

7:41

. And um eventually

7:44

got into manufacturing and now I'm the production

7:46

manager for a manufacturing facility

7:49

that makes uh products for the electrical

7:51

grid and and uh , safety products

7:53

and things . So , uh , yeah

7:56

, and you know , just writing books and learning

7:58

how to 3d print and uh , just

8:00

all , all kinds of stuff , stuff .

8:02

That's awesome . You know , our

8:04

life is filled with successes

8:06

and setbacks . If

8:09

you think about your life , what's

8:11

the biggest setback you had and

8:13

what did you learn from that ?

8:17

Yeah , that's a real interesting question

8:19

, right , because you can think of the

8:22

biggest setback as being the

8:25

most catastrophic fireball

8:28

in one way , or you can kind of

8:30

think of it as the thing that had the

8:32

biggest impact

8:35

on you

8:38

being six years old

8:40

and my best friend was a kid that lived across

8:42

the street and he was seven , so he

8:44

was a big kid that I looked up to , right , um

8:47

. But he came over and we were swinging on on

8:49

my swing set one day and

8:51

, uh , there was a

8:54

little white butterfly that landed right

8:56

underneath my swing and he said

8:58

stop it . And

9:00

my mom , who , who was gardening

9:02

a few feet away said don't do it . Right , and

9:05

I stopped the butterfly , and

9:07

that's something that I'll never

9:10

forget . I'll never forget how that

9:12

felt when I stopped him and

9:14

then my mom pulled me off

9:16

the swing and

9:19

she didn't yell at me or anything , but it was a similar talk

9:21

that my dad would have with me a few

9:23

years later about listen , you

9:25

can't just let other people dictate

9:27

your behavior . You got to think about the

9:29

actions you're taking . Like here's

9:31

this thing that never did anything to you

9:33

, that was innocent and pure , and you stomped it

9:36

into the ground . Like you got to

9:38

think about who you're surrounding yourself with , why

9:40

you're making the decisions that you're making and

9:43

uh , and all that kind of things . And and

9:45

you know we're we're human beings , so we all make mistakes

9:47

and , uh , you know , I wouldn't say that that's the

9:49

last time I was ever in

9:51

, you know , influenced by an outside force that

9:53

caused me to do something I didn't want to do . But but

9:56

collectively , you know , you , you have

9:58

that experience and and it's

10:00

one step in the journey towards

10:02

being somebody who thinks for themselves

10:05

, right , and being somebody who who's not influenced

10:07

by , by some of those , those negative

10:09

people in your life .

10:11

So , yeah , that's , that's the one

10:13

that sticks with me , you know , 30

10:15

years later , yeah , I can tell you , you

10:18

had to really think about , you know the impact

10:20

of why did I do that , what did

10:22

that decision lead

10:24

me to do and why did I ? I like how you dissected

10:27

that moment and kind of go , you know what

10:29

was going through my mind at the moment , which I

10:32

let someone else dictate my

10:34

actions and how do I , kind of , in the future , think

10:37

through before I allow that

10:39

to happen ? Because it's so easy today . I mean , we're so

10:41

influenced by our social media

10:43

, by

10:49

news , that it's easy to let other things dictate our decisions . So , yeah , we have

10:51

to stop and process how we do that .

10:52

Yeah , and especially when it comes to life , you

10:56

know , I think that , especially where

10:58

I am now , you know , I realized that life

11:01

is the most precious gift that there is

11:03

, and so , um , you

11:05

know , some people draw a distinction between a

11:08

tiny white butterfly and a human being and

11:10

some people don't , but regardless

11:12

, nobody's going to deny that it's

11:14

something really special and something that

11:16

shouldn't be just discarded

11:19

or taken from carelessly , you

11:21

know , and uh , yeah , that's , that's really something

11:23

that that I , that I , I still think

11:25

about , you know you have

11:28

done so much to look at your bio and you've been

11:30

so many different areas and so many different genres

11:32

of your life .

11:34

My question for you is what's your why ? What

11:36

gets you up with all the different things you've done

11:38

, that you've had interest in ? What

11:40

drives you ?

11:48

done that you have interest in what drives

11:50

you . Yeah , it's , I mean , it's mystery is what

11:52

it is , um , and I think that it's something that

11:54

I've I've noticed really separates um and philosophers from

11:56

non-philosophers or people who

11:58

do have an appreciation for learning and curiosity

12:01

. Right , because I

12:04

think there's a lot of people who , when they're confronted

12:06

with mystery right , whether it's

12:08

what happens after you die , or

12:11

where the universe came from , or

12:13

what

12:15

makes up an atom , or whatever the case

12:17

may be Right , some people think about those

12:19

things and then it scares them and they

12:22

go . I , I'm just going

12:24

to choose not to think about this

12:26

, right , and that that's not

12:28

a great strategy . Right , because someday you're going to

12:30

have to think about it , someday you will die

12:32

, right , someday you'll have to to look at these

12:35

things . But to me , the

13:49

mystery is the invigorating part , right

13:51

, I like not knowing , but I like trying to find

13:53

out , right , so , about something you'll never

13:55

know it all , there's always going to be more to learn

13:57

about anything , right , and so

13:59

you have to embrace that mystery . You have

14:02

to embrace the uncertainty and

14:04

the being unable

14:06

to know in order to enjoy

14:08

it . And yeah , that's

14:10

really that's my why is

14:12

those unanswered questions and sort

14:15

of the beauty of the human experience

14:17

, right , that stuff is so weird

14:19

that we couldn't even write

14:22

a piece of fiction that came anywhere

14:24

near being as strange as reality is

14:26

. You know , that's the cool part .

14:29

So let's stay along those same lines . I'm kind of curious

14:31

because you have read so much and you've studied

14:33

so much . I'm kind of curious because you

14:35

have read so much and you've studied so much

14:37

.

14:42

Think back to a figure in history that

14:45

if you could have dinner with , who would that be and

14:47

why ? Oh

14:50

man

14:53

, that's a difficult one

14:55

, man

15:03

, there is just a lot of them . I think that my inclination is to go as far back in history as I can

15:05

, because the farther back you go , the more sort of shrouded in uncertainty

15:08

things become . Um

15:10

, yeah , I think

15:13

I think socrates might be

15:15

a cool one , right ? Because everything that we know

15:17

about Socrates was was

15:19

, uh , basically what Plato

15:21

wrote about him , and so there's a lot of things where

15:23

you go , well , did he actually say this , or

15:25

did he actually do this , or was it just something Plato

15:27

was reporting ? And it would just

15:29

be really cool to actually meet the guy , because

15:31

then you'd be able to sort of figure out you

15:34

know how much of how much of it is myth and how much

15:36

of it is man , and uh , you

15:38

know what , what sort of things really happened

15:40

in tread inspired . You know , I think that would he'd , he'd

15:42

probably be , he'd probably be the one .

15:44

I love that . I also see you're a

15:46

musician and I love bands too

15:49

. So my question to you

15:51

is along the music lines if

15:53

you could play guitar for any band , dead

15:55

or alive , who would

15:57

you play for ?

16:00

That's another difficult question right , because I don't want to pick

16:02

a band , that's too good because I can't , I

16:04

can't , I'm not good enough to play in that

16:06

band . Oh

16:09

man , it

16:12

would be . It

16:15

would be cool to be the rhythm

16:18

guitarist for Jimi Hendrix . That's

16:20

what I think that'd be an ultimate goal , right Cause

16:22

I don't think it'd be too hard . You know , you could play some

16:24

power chords and maybe some some major

16:26

sevens and things here and let him solo

16:28

over the top , um , but

16:31

you know he'd , he'd be there to carry

16:33

it , and then there's just such a lasting legacy

16:35

there , from both a creative

16:38

and a musical production standpoint

16:40

, that just revolutionized the history of music

16:42

. I think that would probably be the cool one . Um

16:45

, yeah , that that'd be my pick . You

16:48

know , I , I wouldn't want to , I

16:50

wouldn't want to be , uh , uh , the

16:52

co-star . I

16:56

wouldn't want to be anything else . But if I could be the rhythm guitarist or even the bass player

16:58

, that would be , that would be the dream job , I think

17:00

that's awesome .

17:01

I thought you would say maybe bob marley , because the

17:03

movie's just coming out oh

17:06

yeah yeah yeah he .

17:08

I think he he'd probably be pretty easy to play with

17:10

too . You know . So the reggae thing

17:12

, once you can get the uh , the rhythm pattern down

17:14

, it's not too hard to not too hard to stay with . So the reggae thing , once you can get the uh , the rhythm pattern down , it's not too hard to

17:16

not too hard to stay with . So that one would that

17:19

would probably be a pretty good gig too .

17:20

Yeah , so you mentioned

17:23

philosophy and I want to go back there , but I just I just thought

17:25

about the guitar thing and I just that was in the back of

17:27

my mind . Um , I

17:29

don't think most people really understand

17:31

what philosophy is . So if you

17:33

were trying to help someone define

17:35

what's philosophy , what would you say

17:37

?

17:40

Yeah , this is part of the reason I

17:42

started the show , right Is because I didn't

17:44

know what philosophy really was

17:46

until community college . Right , I was

17:48

like , okay , well , it's something to do with old

17:51

guys with big beards and that

17:53

are mad at the world and a bunch of dusty books

17:55

, and it's really not any of that , right

17:57

, um , what I tell people now is

17:59

that philosophy is everyone's favorite

18:02

topic . They just don't know it yet , right , um

18:04

? Because what it is is it's the

18:07

logic behind your beliefs

18:09

, so it's the reason

18:11

we believe and act the way we do . And so

18:13

you've already asked a few interesting questions

18:15

that give you some insight into why that might be

18:17

interesting to me . Right , you know

18:19

, you have some experiences in your life

18:22

where you go why the heck

18:24

did I just do that , or what was I

18:26

thinking at that time ? And then

18:28

that sort of causes , this self-reflection

18:30

or metacognition , to

18:33

say , well , what are my core

18:35

beliefs ? What's guiding me here

18:37

? And that's

18:39

what philosophy , that's

18:42

what it is , right . So

18:44

everybody has one . Now

18:46

, you may not have thought much about it , but

18:48

everybody has one , right ? Some

18:51

people will say , well , this

18:53

is what I believe . Well , why is that ? Well , I'm

18:55

not sure , or they'll start stumbling

18:58

around . Well , that's a good sign that maybe

19:01

you should become more interested in philosophy

19:03

, right ? If your reason is , well

19:05

, because I read it on Facebook , or because

19:07

you know this is just what my family

19:09

has always said , or something that's not a good

19:12

reason . Right , you want to dig a little bit deeper

19:14

. And or something that's

19:16

not a good reason , right , you want to dig a little bit deeper , and when you do , you come across

19:18

all kinds of interesting topics . Like I was saying

19:20

, you can never know everything about

19:22

anything , and so that's what my

19:24

show's about . Usually , we take one

19:26

word every week and

19:29

we

19:47

spend a whole hour talking about it , looking at the

19:49

historical thought on it

19:51

, then discussing what the meaning of it

19:53

is , what the concept actually is , and then can ask these

19:55

questions about anything , so that's why

19:57

it's everybody's favorite topic . No matter what you like

19:59

, you can dig into it at a deeper level

20:01

and really get excited

20:04

about what you can know

20:06

and what you can never know .

20:08

Really that

20:10

philosophy has lost , has

20:12

been taken out of our school system , especially at the

20:14

younger ages and

20:20

, in your opinion , because you do study it , what is the impact of losing philosophy , especially

20:23

in the mind of our kids that are growing up ?

20:26

Yeah , I think it's kind of what I was just

20:28

alluding to there , and

20:31

I think we're seeing it on an epidemic level

20:33

with the advances

20:35

in technology and social

20:37

media , right ? Is that a lot

20:39

of what ? The same things you believe

20:42

, and then the

20:57

algorithms in the technology

20:59

pick up on what you like and reinforce

21:02

those and , before you know it , you're

21:04

never exposed to any

21:06

beliefs that are different from yours . You're never exposed to

21:08

any people that are different from you , and

21:11

very quickly you

21:13

can find yourself sort of engrossed

21:15

and entrenched in a

21:17

very polarized viewpoint where

21:20

you're

21:23

adamantly and violently

21:25

sure of what you believe but you have

21:27

no reason for believing it , other than

21:29

these things were

21:31

suggested to you by other people . Right

21:33

, and so that's the importance

21:35

of philosophy . Is logic , syllogisms

21:38

, right , the ability to say I

21:40

believe this because this

21:42

you

21:56

believe , what you believe , and and not to just , um , you know , have to sort of gaslight

21:58

people or get angry or or stumble around and not

22:00

know the answers to those questions . So that's

22:02

that's why it's important . And

22:05

, um , yeah , you know , I think that a

22:07

course like logic really should be

22:10

taught in school , you know it's ? It's

22:12

kind of like it's sort of like a math equation

22:14

, but without any math , right ? You just have to

22:17

say well , if A and B

22:19

equals C , well then , how

22:21

did all the things fit together ?

22:24

So let's put that to the test . So for someone

22:27

who's studied philosophy , define

22:30

success for me .

22:34

Now , you see , and here's the important part about

22:36

philosophy and you've probably picked up on it already

22:39

in the interview , right Is that things

22:42

are always much more complicated and

22:44

nuanced than they seem . So lots

22:46

of times you're asking me questions and people they

22:49

, a lot of people hate this about me

22:51

, but I rarely give a straight answer .

22:51

Right , hate this about me , but I rarely give a straight answer , right

22:53

?

22:54

Success , you know , as a term we

23:03

can sort of define the term generally , but I think it depends

23:06

very much on what the situation is right . What my metric for success

23:08

in school is versus music , versus

23:10

this conversation , versus

23:12

anything else , is very different . So

23:16

would you ask me what my

23:19

definition of success is for

23:21

my life or for humanity ? I'd

23:23

need a more specific question . I guess I like

23:25

that .

23:26

So your definition of success for

23:28

your life let's go with that

23:30

.

23:31

Okay , yeah , I

23:34

think that it builds off of the

23:36

experiences that I've talked about so far

23:39

. I think it's becoming

23:42

the person that you

23:44

are meant to be , that you never finished . Right

23:47

, it's never complete , and

23:57

, again , that's something that scares some

24:00

people . Right , you go , okay , well

24:02

, even if someday I turn out to be

24:04

Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or somebody

24:06

, right , you're still going

24:08

to die and the companies that you built are

24:10

still going to collapse

24:12

or be split up or bought out by somebody

24:15

else . And you know , 300 years from now

24:17

, people may not know who you are besides in a

24:19

textbook or something , right , um

24:21

, and that that would scare people

24:23

. Um , but then

24:25

the flip side of that is right . It doesn't matter

24:28

if you're 70 or 80 or 90 years old

24:30

. You can always change , right , and

24:32

you can always learn and you can always adapt

24:34

who , who , that vision of who you

24:36

are , what it is where

24:38

it goes , right . So , so I

24:41

I get that ask that question a lot because

24:43

people , um , people

24:45

who know me , their , their general reactions to

24:48

me are um , well

24:50

, hey , why do you ? Why do you work that job ? Um

24:53

, you know , and I go . I've had offers to get

24:55

paid $40,000 a year other

24:57

places . But I choose the job that I

24:59

choose because I like the people that are there

25:01

and the work that I do is fulfilling and

25:04

the hours that I work allow me to do pursue

25:06

my hobbies and other things , right , so money

25:08

is a very , very small part

25:11

of the equation there . Same thing

25:13

with music . People go , hey , you do really good music , you

25:15

should tour

25:17

and try to promote it and get

25:19

it out there and all this sorts of stuff . And I go I've

25:22

been in live bands . I don't like

25:24

it . I'm an introvert , right , I don't

25:26

like it . I've had people I had a guy get ahold of me and

25:28

go . I've got three guys that want to play your songs

25:30

live . Why'd they want to go to , or do you want to do it

25:32

? And I said , no , I don't . I

25:34

don't like playing live music , I like recording

25:37

stuff in my studio and putting

25:39

it out there . And , um , you know , my nightmare

25:41

is being famous , right , I don't . I don't want to do my

25:43

thing and and you know I , I do , I

25:54

, you know you want to get to the point . I think success , right , is you want to get to the

25:56

point where whatever you're doing in the present moment is something that

25:58

you find fulfilling and is something

26:00

that you want to do Right , and so I've

26:02

. That's the way I've structured my life right

26:12

. I've tried to to choose a job and

26:14

hobbies and a wife and friends that I love and enjoy being around . And

26:17

again , it's always a work in progress . There's things that are changing and life throws

26:19

curve balls at you and you adapt to it and everybody's going to have bad

26:21

times , but that's always

26:23

the goal . That's the definition of success , right . It's

26:25

getting to the point where you're

26:27

enjoying life right .

26:34

I like that because what you just described , I think so many people that I've run across

26:36

are discontent because they're seeking this

26:38

mythical idea of success

26:41

and they never actually

26:43

get there because they can't first of all define

26:45

what it is . So if they got

26:47

this certain amount of dollar amount that they're looking for

26:49

, they're still not happy because that

26:52

really wasn't what success was . And

26:54

so I like the fact that you kind of get

26:57

us to the point of thinking that really success is

26:59

, I would say , doing the things

27:01

that God created you to do in this world . You

27:04

may make money for it , you may not , but whatever it is

27:06

, you'll be content because you're doing what

27:08

you were designed to do . And

27:11

so for me , success is doing what you were designed

27:13

to do , whether I make money on it or become rich

27:15

or famous . I mean , I'm also an introvert

27:17

too , so you know , the idea of being successful

27:19

and going can't go to a restaurant

27:21

without people wanting your autograph doesn't sound like a

27:23

lot of fun for me , because

27:26

, yeah , I get recharged by being alone

27:29

. I don't get recharged by being in front of a crowd , so

27:31

crowds de-energize

27:33

me .

27:34

Yeah , and I think it goes along with sort of the gamification

27:37

of life , right , like people want to keep up with the

27:39

Joneses and they act like there's some sort

27:41

of goal . But the difference between life

27:43

and a game , right , is in a

27:45

game . If you win the game , then you can celebrate

27:47

your victory afterwards In life , when the clock

27:49

is a game , if you win the game , then you can celebrate your victory afterwards in life , when the

27:51

clock runs out , you're done . Right , so it doesn't , and it doesn't even

27:53

matter if you have , if you believe in an afterlife

27:56

or not . The point is that the life

27:58

that you lived here , um , the

28:01

things that you choose to do , uh

28:04

, and that's sort of what determines

28:06

the value that you had in

28:08

this particular life

28:10

. Right , and so if you just

28:12

made a bunch of money and you didn't know what to do with it , or

28:14

it was never enough , right , because we have

28:16

three , something like three quarters of people

28:19

making six figures are living paycheck to paycheck

28:21

and don't have retirement plans

28:23

and this sort of stuff , and a quarter

28:26

of them report being very poor , right

28:28

, and you go , you know you're , you're

28:31

chasing the wrong things if that's the boat that

28:33

you're in , you know . And uh , yeah

28:35

, there's

28:40

. There's so many other things to life than than money , and and the biggest one is

28:42

time . Right , you don't get that back , and so you have to be in the present

28:45

moment and you have to be enjoying it the best you can

28:47

in order to live

28:49

the good life .

28:52

Right . I'm curious , joe

28:54

. We've covered a lot , but what are you

28:56

excited about in this season of your life ?

29:00

Man , I've got a lot of stuff right

29:03

. I've just finished writing

29:05

my first novel and so that's in

29:07

editing and it um . It'll

29:09

probably come out this summer and

29:12

I plan on doing an audio book version of it . I'm

29:14

going to redo some of the uh , some

29:16

of the um studio installation

29:18

in here and and do an audio book

29:20

with my own voice , so that'll be cool and

29:23

um yeah new branding

29:25

for the podcast and I'm

29:28

just always excited for

29:31

things . I always

29:33

have new ideas and new things that I want to try

29:35

and do , so there's a lot of stuff .

29:38

What's your new book about ?

29:42

So it's a fantasy book , fiction

29:44

and , um , just creating

29:46

, you know , doing world building , creating a my

29:48

own universe and characters and trying

29:51

to tell a , uh , a story

29:53

. That , um , the

29:55

biggest thing I tried to do with it , right , is take abstract

29:58

concepts , um , that are sort

30:00

of archetypical of the human experience , and make them

30:02

concrete . And then take

30:05

concrete things that we have in our everyday

30:07

experience and sort of make them abstract

30:09

or conceptual in the book . So

30:13

yeah , so I've been working on that , and then me

30:15

and my co-host are writing a philosophy

30:17

book as well . So yeah

30:19

, just a lot of irons in the fire .

30:21

That sounds interesting . I love that . So

30:24

, as you think about your life , I'm curious

30:26

what character trait do

30:29

you want to be known for or remembered for ?

30:34

Yeah , it's interesting , you

30:38

know , people talk

30:40

about legacy , right

30:43

, and I don't really care about that , right , because

30:45

it's all going to fade

30:47

away Again

30:49

. This doesn't matter on your beliefs , it doesn't matter if you're

30:51

religious or an atheist or whatever

30:54

. Almost

30:56

everybody agrees that this universe

30:58

, this world , this life that we have will

31:01

fade away at some point . Right , you

31:03

can have kids and great grandkids , and great , great

31:05

grandkids , and at some point nobody will remember

31:07

who you were , nobody will remember what you did . Um

31:10

, so it's , it's what you're doing at

31:12

at the given moment

31:14

, Right , and so I just want

31:16

to be remembered as somebody

31:18

who , who , did as much good as they could

31:21

in the time that they had , you

31:23

know , and and that goes in

31:25

several directions , right , it goes in creative endeavors

31:28

, it goes into

31:30

personal relationships , it goes into

31:32

communal good . You

31:34

know , being involved in local government and

31:36

trying to make a difference there , and you

31:39

know . So I guess what

31:41

it boils down to is , you know , it's

31:45

very common in the world today to

31:47

, you know , people think it's cool to just

31:49

not care , right , about whatever

31:51

. It is right , it's easier to not

31:53

care and therefore to

31:56

sort of absolve yourself of

31:58

any guilt in how the world is going

32:00

right . I guess that I just

32:02

want to be known as somebody who cared

32:04

right , somebody who tried to

32:07

make the world a better place in some way .

32:09

I love that If I gave you

32:11

a platform and get the world's attention

32:13

for 30 seconds . What do you want to

32:15

tell the world ?

32:19

I think what I'd tell them

32:21

is that we're both

32:23

the good and the evil in the

32:25

world . Right , and the only way to fix

32:27

it is to start with ourselves

32:30

. You know , we

32:33

need to change our perspective and appreciate

32:35

what's here . What's what

32:37

we already have , you know , and

32:41

again , that's just the big thing . Is

32:43

perspective right ? A lot of people today

32:46

are . They're on one side

32:48

or the the other , or they view things as being

32:51

this very black and white

32:53

. That's what it boils down to is we're

32:55

the good and the bad , you know , and so

32:57

if you want to see the world be a better place , you're

33:00

going to have to be a better person .

33:03

I love that . Anything , I haven't

33:05

asked you that I should have asked you .

33:10

No , Well , you it's . You've asked a lot of interesting questions and I think that

33:12

it's really been a good interview .

33:14

Well , good , I like that . Where

33:16

can people learn more about you and follow along

33:19

when your book comes out ? Where can they find that ? Where

33:21

can they find Joel on social media ?

33:24

I'm the world's worst marketer , so I'm a little bit hard to find . I'm the

33:26

world's worst marketer , so I'm a little bit hard to find . If

33:29

you just type my name , joel Bouchard , into

33:31

Google , you'll be able to find

33:33

my music pretty easily . My

33:35

latest album is All we Are . Nothing

33:38

on the book yet because it's not published . My

33:41

podcast is From Nowhere to Nothing . So if you're

33:43

interested in philosophy again , you can

33:45

find that anywhere you listen to podcasts and

33:48

yeah , that's pretty much it .

33:59

Well , joel , thanks so much for taking this dive down philosophical lane with me and kind of thinking

34:01

some things outside of our box , maybe getting people to start thinking about the decisions they

34:03

make and why they make them . But I think that's important

34:05

for us to really put in perspective what

34:07

are the choices we're making and why we're making them

34:10

, because that's really critical for us to kind

34:12

of not fall into the same traps

34:14

of making bad decisions , follow

34:16

the crowd , but to kind

34:18

of chart our own path based on , you know , our

34:20

understanding of the world and our belief

34:23

systems .

34:25

Yeah , absolutely .