1:00

My guest today is Katherine Burner

1:03

. Katherine is a grief and trauma

1:05

expert , a licensed psychotherapist

1:07

and founder of the Living Beyond

1:10

Loss Academy . After

1:13

30 years in both public and private

1:15

sectors of the mental health field , katherine

1:18

is well acquainted with the ways grief

1:20

can impact her life . By crafting

1:22

this guide from her personal experience

1:24

and lessons learned during her own season

1:27

of mourning , katherine offers compassion

1:29

and guidance to those suffering a loss in

1:32

this timely work . She

1:34

is a graduate of Spillman College and University

1:36

of North Texas . Katherine

1:38

holds degrees in psychology and counseling

1:40

. In addition , she is certified

1:43

as an ICISF

1:46

crisis responder , clinical

1:48

trauma specialist and a trained

1:50

MDMEDR

1:52

practitioner . You welcome Katherine

1:55

to the podcast . Well

1:59

, katherine , it's so good to have you on the podcast

2:01

. How's your day going ?

2:03

My day is going wonderful . Thank you so

2:05

much for having me . I'm excited about

2:07

having this conversation with you . I really appreciate

2:10

it .

2:10

Well , I'm glad I'm looking forward to having it as well . Your

2:12

topic is one that so many people

2:15

either have dealt with , especially

2:17

in the last two years , or , if they haven't

2:19

, they will deal with it at some point in their life . You

2:23

can't avoid grief as long

2:25

as you live here . Yes , it's true

2:27

, the unfortunate reality , yes

2:29

, Right , I

2:31

want to get to know you a little bit better in my audience too . Give

2:33

me the best piece of advice you've ever received

2:36

.

2:37

Oh man , I will be honest as

2:39

I was thinking about this . I don't want to sound

2:41

too super spiritual , but the reality is

2:44

that's just kind of who I am . The best

2:46

piece of advice that I

2:48

was ever given was to

2:50

be true to who I am and be true to who

2:52

God has called me to be . I

2:55

didn't understand that at the time because I was young

2:57

and you hear stuff and you're like what

3:00

is that ? Having

3:02

lived a few years , now I

3:05

get it and it makes sense . I

3:07

see it for the gift , honestly , that

3:09

it really was .

3:11

There is nothing wrong with being hyper spiritual and the

3:13

advice you get . That

3:19

is some of the best advice I've often got that

3:21

is awesome . I'm

3:27

curious in your life we always

3:29

had those people that have meant so

3:32

much to us . I'm curious if you

3:34

want to give a shout out

3:36

to some people in your life who have served

3:38

to inspire you , be

3:40

a mentor for you , help you through some

3:42

difficult times . Is there somebody who comes to

3:44

mind you want to kind of thank for that ?

3:48

Yeah Well , there are two people . Neither

3:51

of them are still with us , but I'll

3:53

shout them out anyway . My mother

3:55

would be the first one . She

3:58

was my biggest cheerleader

4:00

, my number one fan and my

4:02

absolute everything . And

4:06

then my uncle , who was her

4:08

younger brother , her only brother . He

4:10

is the person who led me to

4:12

Christ , who taught me about Jesus

4:14

, who taught me how to teach about Jesus

4:16

, who just discipled

4:19

me when I didn't really even know what that was . So

4:22

those are the two people that have

4:24

been the most instrumental

4:27

in my life and in my journey , and

4:30

I'm just so grateful that God decided to plant me in

4:32

their lives for the time that I had them .

4:34

That's amazing and it's so good to know

4:36

often times , as people that question that's

4:38

who they come up with . Somebody , either a mother or a

4:40

father or a family member who

4:42

knew them from the day they were born

4:45

to the day they left this earth . And so , yeah

4:47

, those are some of the most impactful people in our

4:49

lives .

4:50

Absolutely . Yeah , I've got some others

4:53

, but when I think about those

4:55

two , they win . The prize hands

4:57

down .

4:58

Right , there you go . I

5:00

looked at your book and did some research on

5:02

you and it seems like your book came

5:04

out of a personal journey , so you want to share your

5:06

story as to what that

5:08

journey was and the lessons you learned along

5:11

the way .

5:11

Sure , so

5:13

the book is actually . Well , I was actually

5:16

written and born out of my own grief

5:18

journey , in particular , after the death

5:20

of my mother . You know I've

5:22

worked in the mental health space my entire

5:24

career , for almost 30 years now

5:26

. I've counseled countless

5:29

people on grief and loss and trauma

5:31

and all the things and

5:34

did that well and I really enjoy that

5:37

. But in 2011 , when

5:39

my mother passed away , I literally

5:42

did not know what

5:44

I was going to do . I didn't know how

5:47

I was going to move forward . I didn't even

5:49

I didn't know if I was going to move forward

5:51

and , quite frankly , I didn't know if I wanted to move

5:53

forward and just what my life

5:55

was going to look like . And so I went through that

5:58

that really difficult season after her

6:00

death and I came to a place where I said

6:02

to myself if

6:04

I know all that I know as

6:06

a mental health professional , I know , having worked with

6:08

people , you know even my spiritual walk

6:10

. If I know everything that I know about grief

6:12

and loss and you know how you move through and

6:14

all the things , and I'm struggling

6:17

the way that I'm struggling , what in

6:19

the world is everybody else doing ? And

6:21

that's really what prompted me to write

6:23

the book Just as a way to

6:25

give people something to hold

6:27

onto in those

6:29

beginning phases of grief where you're just trying to figure

6:32

out what is going on and

6:34

am I losing my mind ? Am I okay

6:36

? Am I not okay ? What is

6:38

this ? So that's really what it was born

6:41

from . I wanted it to be , you

6:43

know , an easy read . I didn't want it to be

6:45

a lot of psychological heady

6:47

. You know stuff that people had to figure

6:50

out what I was saying . I just wanted

6:52

it to be very practical and kind

6:54

of the starting point for people moving

6:56

through their grief journey , something easy

6:58

that they can start with . Like I said , not

7:00

a long read , but something that would still

7:03

be impactful for them . So that's

7:05

really where the book came from , and

7:07

I talk about this in the book . The other losses

7:09

that I've experienced , that kind of led that , because

7:11

when we think about grief we

7:14

always think about death , but

7:17

grief is about loss , and so , you

7:19

know , I've experienced , you know , job loss

7:21

. I've experienced , you know , divorce . I've gone

7:23

through , you know , sexual abuse

7:25

and trauma , and that has its own facet

7:28

of loss attached to it . There are multiple

7:30

parts of my story , but

7:32

the book came primarily

7:34

from my mom leaving

7:37

here and going to rest with Jesus .

7:39

It's funny you mention that because I'm a pastor

7:41

and I

7:44

have done hundreds

7:47

of funerals and

7:49

sat with families

7:51

, helped them plan the funeral , conducted

7:54

the service , never

7:56

really understood

7:59

the pain they went

8:01

through until I lost my mother

8:03

too and just like you described

8:05

this , I tell my own story . I

8:07

felt lost and I'm like I'm not

8:09

supposed to feel lost . I'm a pastor , I

8:12

know where she is

8:14

, I know her face was there , but

8:16

it just it hurt so

8:19

bad and it was so painful

8:21

. For months I was

8:23

out of sorts . I mean , I lost my dad first and

8:25

that was a different loss . That loss

8:28

felt like I lost a sense of identity

8:30

Cause like , even

8:32

though we weren't all that close , it's

8:34

like he was the dad and I wasn't

8:36

even I was married . But it was

8:38

like when he lost , it's like I'm the next

8:40

generation and it was just this weird sense

8:43

of now it's on me

8:45

. But when my mom

8:47

died , it was , it was

8:49

like I tell people , it's like

8:51

I almost felt like my faith

8:53

was shaken and it made

8:56

no sense . Why was

8:58

shaking ?

8:59

I'm completely with you and it's interesting you say that

9:02

cause my father passed away first as well

9:04

and , similar to you , I

9:06

described it as my father had a complicated relationship

9:09

and so when he passed

9:11

away , it hit me differently being

9:15

a female it was it was all

9:17

of a sudden my maiden name meant

9:19

something , whereas before it was just

9:21

like okay , whatever . But

9:25

it was very interesting dynamic

9:27

and very different dynamics . I completely identify

9:29

with what you're saying . Yeah , when my

9:31

mom left here , I was like now wait a minute

9:34

, jesus . Yeah , but

9:37

I mean , look

9:39

at here , we need to talk

9:41

.

9:41

Right , and

9:45

for me it was funny cause I remember when it hit

9:47

me that God

9:49

shook me , I guess you could say and reminded me that he still

9:52

loved me . I was , I was driving

9:54

down the road and the

9:56

song , this Christian song , came on

9:58

and I can't think of , I can't think of the name of that , but it

10:01

was like it was a song when it talks about the

10:05

waves of God's grace wash over me

10:07

and it was like it was like I'm sitting

10:09

down the road and I'm crying

10:11

, going down the road in Chicago . No one understands why

10:13

I'm in the car crying , but it was like God

10:15

just reminded me that he never

10:18

abandoned me due that loss and

10:20

he was always there . But it was like it hit you at the weirdest

10:23

time to bring you back , to

10:25

get out , cause my

10:27

mom died without me being there . She died

10:29

alone and it died suddenly . And

10:32

so I'm like , well , god , why did you let

10:35

her die by herself ? And it was in that moment

10:37

he reminded me that she was never alone

10:39

. Even in that last moments I

10:41

was always there . To kind of it just eased a

10:43

little bit , but it was like it was tough to get to

10:45

that point where I just felt guilty

10:48

that I didn't see it and

10:51

missed it all together .

10:53

Absolutely . And again , it's so interesting

10:55

that , even as you talk with people about

10:57

their losses and how they experience it and that's one

11:00

of the things I talk about in the book you know the

11:02

way that someone passes away , your

11:04

experience of their loss , how you

11:06

find out were you there , were you not Like

11:08

all of those things will color

11:10

how you move through your grief process

11:13

. You know For me , and

11:15

similar to you , it hit me later

11:18

on how gracious God even

11:20

was to me in my mother's death . Well , I was just

11:22

focused on the fact that she's not here

11:24

, but my father

11:26

died very suddenly . I mean , like you know

11:28

, this morning he did , and like you know , five

11:30

hours later he's not my mother

11:33

. We went to walk through a seven and a half

11:35

month journey with my mom before she passed

11:37

away , and when I looked back on

11:39

that , I was so grateful for

11:41

that time that God gave me to

11:44

slowly pull away . I

11:46

talk to my mother every day , multiple times a day , just

11:49

because the wind blew , you know , right , but

11:52

during those seven and a half months I wasn't

11:54

able to do that . We slowly , you

11:57

know , had to pull away , and so

11:59

that was God's way for

12:01

me of preparing me to

12:03

let go , because I always

12:05

say to people had he decided

12:07

to take my mom suddenly the way that he did

12:09

my father , I don't know what that

12:12

would have looked like , would I have gotten through it Absolutely

12:14

, but I know that it would have been exponentially

12:16

more difficult for me , and

12:18

so it's so interesting to be able to

12:20

see God's grace , even

12:22

in our losses , and the way that he

12:25

chooses to do whatever he

12:27

wants to do with the people that

12:29

he ultimately just put on

12:31

loan to us .

12:32

Right , exactly so . The

12:34

name of your book is God Help Me . I'm Grieving

12:36

, Finding Healing After Loss

12:39

.

12:40

Yes .

12:41

Tell us a little bit about how

12:43

the book guides people through finding

12:46

healing , because I think that is so critical . Like you said

12:48

, the loss may not be the death of someone

12:50

, but it could be a different kind of loss . But

12:53

how do you help people find healing when

12:56

those losses ?

12:56

are ? Yeah , that's

12:58

a great question . I think it starts with

13:00

understanding some really fundamental

13:02

things about loss that I talk about in the

13:04

book . I talk about the 3Ps

13:06

that grief is perfectly normal , that grief

13:09

is personal and that grief is a process , kind

13:11

of starting there , at what I call the beginning

13:13

, because so often , whatever

13:15

the loss is , so oftentimes because

13:18

of the emotions that we experience , the

13:21

reality is none of us want to hurt and

13:23

none of us want to hurt very long . And

13:26

that's the hard part about grief

13:28

and loss it's the physical and

13:30

emotional pain that we experience

13:32

that just doesn't go away as quickly

13:34

as we want . So when we start to help

13:36

people understand that it's

13:39

going to take some time , it's going to look

13:41

different on you than it does on me . It's

13:43

going to look different even within family

13:45

systems individuals who experience

13:48

the same or similar

13:50

loss and that there's nothing wrong

13:52

with you , that there's nothing innately

13:54

wrong with you . You're grieving and

13:57

that's OK . So helping people

13:59

start there to just understand

14:02

what's happening to them pushes them

14:04

so much further along in their healing , because

14:06

oftentimes the stunt

14:08

to the healing , if you will , is I

14:11

don't understand what's happening and so I'm doing all these

14:13

other things to try and make it go away

14:15

, when actually what needs to happen

14:17

is I need to understand that what I'm experiencing is

14:19

normal , so that I can now move through

14:21

the process and make my way toward

14:23

healing and understanding that it's going

14:26

to take time , how much time ? As long

14:28

as it takes . So that's some

14:30

of I think the beginning phase is so very

14:33

important , just to give people a clear understanding

14:35

of what in the world is happening

14:37

to me right now .

14:39

So how do you in that first phase because I

14:41

think it's really critical , you said something really special

14:43

there how do you give yourself

14:45

grace during

14:47

that first part , because you can really beat yourself

14:50

up going ? Why am I not over this ? And

14:52

it just makes it worse . The more you beat

14:54

yourself up , the worse , it gets . So

14:56

how do you tell people to give themselves

14:59

the grace to be in that place

15:01

, to sit in that place and

15:04

to just be okay with the fact that it's going

15:06

to hurt ?

15:07

Right , yeah , and one of the ways

15:09

I do that is helping them understand

15:12

that and kind of going back to what I said there's nothing

15:14

wrong with you , so it's

15:16

not like you know you're somehow

15:19

in a way . There's this disorder

15:21

that you have . What your experience is

15:23

a normal response to loss that

15:25

everybody experiences and

15:27

so understanding that

15:29

. So that takes you off , doesn't go , oh

15:32

, okay , well , there's nothing wrong

15:34

with me , all right . Now , how

15:36

do you experience loss ? What does it look

15:38

like for you ? Do you need time to

15:40

cry ? Do you need time to go

15:43

play basketball with your friends ? You need

15:45

to go play golf . Understanding

15:47

that men and women and all of those differences

15:49

, innate differences that we have . So

15:52

understand that about yourself and

15:54

then going okay , if

15:56

I'm going to get better , I

15:58

need to give myself the time to get

16:00

better I talk about in the book . I use

16:02

the example of my son . He broke his arm when

16:04

he was maybe eight , nine years old , exactly

16:06

just before my father passed away , broke his own roller

16:08

skating , and he

16:10

had to go from you know , the

16:12

original splint , to a cast to

16:14

search all the things to

16:17

get to the process of healing , because it has

16:19

to happen from the inside out

16:21

. We want , we think

16:23

that , because we look okay here

16:25

, that we should be able to go on and move

16:27

about our lives . But naturally , healing has

16:30

to happen from the inside out , and

16:32

so that takes time . So , recognizing

16:34

that , slow down , give

16:36

yourself the grace , the space , the time

16:39

, and don't allow other people to

16:41

put those predetermined time frames

16:43

on you that say , oh well , it's

16:45

been a month , you should be okay by now . Or

16:47

it's been two months and you still

16:50

crying every Tuesday because

16:52

your mom died on Tuesday . So I cry every Tuesday

16:55

. It's because that's your

17:52

process , that's the way you need to move

17:54

through the process . So giving

17:57

yourself grace is huge

17:59

in this and also

18:01

teaching other people and that's why I'd love

18:03

to do the training that I do . So it's not only you giving yourself

18:06

grace , but it's helping other people understand we need to

18:08

give the ones we love grace and space as

18:10

well .

18:11

I had another guest on . We were talking about grief

18:13

too , and we were talking about she lost

18:15

her son to

18:17

drug addiction and he took his own life . And

18:21

you know , one of the things she talked about

18:23

is people , when they're around you and

18:25

you're dealing with grief , they don't want to mention

18:27

a person's name and

18:30

that doesn't help , because you want

18:32

to talk about that person . It's like you want that

18:34

person's name mentioned because you don't want

18:36

. It's like you're still alive as long

18:39

as you're still being talked about . So

18:41

how do you help people who come around

18:43

grieving people to

18:45

deal with some of the best practices when you're dealing

18:48

with somebody who's dealing with grief ?

18:51

Absolutely , and I do that a lot , and the

18:53

first thing that I try to teach people is

18:55

, first of all , to recognize that you don't

18:57

always have to say anything , that

19:00

your primary job is to listen

19:02

and be present , Because there's nothing

19:04

that you can say that's going to make it

19:06

better . Like there's nothing that

19:08

you're going to say to someone , they're going to go . Oh , you

19:11

know what . You are absolutely right

19:13

. I am so glad that God put my mom

19:15

on my dad . Like that's not

19:17

going to happen . So a lot of it is

19:19

just learning . Learning

19:22

the ministry of presence is what I

19:24

call it Just being present for people

19:26

and allowing them to talk . And

19:28

so they want to talk about their loved

19:30

one , their husband , their father , their mother , daughter , child

19:32

, whoever it was , mother , father , whoever

19:34

it may be allowing them to do

19:36

that , and your job is to

19:38

respond in a way that simply

19:41

lets them know I hear you and

19:43

I am validating whatever feelings

19:45

you have . You're not trying to explain them away

19:47

. You don't even have to agree with them , but

19:50

people need to be seen , people need to be

19:52

heard when they're at space . I try to teach folks that

19:55

in the beginning , don't say nothing

19:57

, just oftentimes

20:00

, because we tend

20:02

to say a lot of things that are just

20:04

not helpful at all

20:06

. Exactly

20:14

, yeah

20:16

, oh , you're so young you can

20:18

marry again . Like I

20:21

literally just left the cemetery in

20:23

your toe milk

20:27

. Yeah , the things

20:29

we do .

20:30

I love this quote . I want you to kind of dig a little deeper

20:32

for us you have . This grief demonstrates

20:35

how a person's response to

20:37

loss does not indicate a lack

20:39

of faith , but testifies instead

20:41

to their humanity and life , affirming choices

20:44

to love and to be loved . Kind

20:46

of unpack that for us a little bit .

20:49

Yeah , so oftentimes , particularly

20:52

in the Christian community , in our faith communities

20:54

, when someone agrees , we tend

20:56

to have this wrong

20:58

view and say that well , somehow they don't have

21:00

faith , particularly if it lasts longer than about

21:02

two , three weeks . You know they

21:06

must not be praying enough or they don't have enough

21:08

faith or all of these things . That's tied

21:10

to their relationship , their

21:12

fellowship with God , but actually has nothing

21:14

to do with that . It has everything to do

21:16

with they were connected and they weren't fellowship

21:18

with another human being . Their

21:21

heart was connected to another human

21:23

being in some way and some

21:25

way , shape or form . And I say this

21:27

is true , whether it was a good relationship , whether

21:29

it's a divorce and it was

21:31

a particularly difficult divorce , and

21:34

maybe it was a relationship that you can

21:36

look back and go . You know what ? I shouldn't have even

21:38

got married to begin with , but

21:40

you're still connected heart to heart

21:42

with another human being , and

21:44

that is an indication

21:46

that you made a choice . You

21:49

made a decision to love someone

21:51

and to allow yourself to be loved . And when

21:53

we think about you know just what

21:55

scripture says , like that , that's the whole

21:58

. We think about what , what Jesus says to

22:00

us in Matthew at the beginning , middle

22:02

and end of scripture love God , love other people

22:04

. And so you've done

22:06

that . And now , when this loss happened

22:09

, there's a period of time that it's going to

22:11

take to heal from that , and so , in

22:13

a very weird way , what we

22:16

experienced with grief and loss

22:18

is actually the beauty of knowing

22:20

that you were intimately connected

22:23

to another human being , and that's a gift

22:25

. That's really a gift .

22:27

I like that and you and I talked

22:29

about it . You know you could be a very , very strong

22:31

Christian , but sometimes the loss

22:33

devastates you and

22:36

it's not a lack of faith , it is

22:38

just . It goes back to what Paul talks about

22:40

. It's like sometimes you go through trials

22:43

and tribulations in your life so that your faith

22:45

is proven to be genuine . Your

22:47

faith comes out stronger sometimes when you've

22:49

gone through those difficult , painful

22:52

moments in your life .

22:54

Absolutely . You know , when I

22:56

teach this , a lot of times I walk through Job

22:59

because I think it's just that whole

23:01

book is just a beautiful chapter of this , because

23:03

you know , we start out in chapter one . You

23:05

know Job is a man and Job got

23:07

everything and all the things . In

23:10

the chapter one he literally loses everything

23:12

. But we like to land on the very end

23:14

of chapter one where he says naked I came to

23:16

the world and naked I'll be blessed , be the name

23:18

of the Lord . And we , we pop that up as

23:20

this . You know , really beautiful , super

23:22

spiritual space that we should all be in

23:24

as soon as we lose someone . Now

23:27

, granted , that's what we want to end . But

23:29

we forget to point people to

23:31

the rest of the book . Because between

23:33

chapter three and about chapter 38

23:36

, job is , he's

23:38

in a bad spot . I

23:40

mean , he is God . Why

23:42

did you let me be born if this

23:44

will go happen ? Because not only he's

23:46

lost his possessions , he's lost his children

23:48

. I mean he goes through every , almost every

23:51

point of loss his children , his

23:53

possessions . You know he's

23:55

, his health is in jeopardy

23:57

. You know , some would argue his relationship

23:59

even with you know , I like to call her Miss Job

24:02

because , oh , by the way , she's

24:04

grieving too when she makes that

24:06

comment to him about you should curse

24:08

God and die . So everything that

24:10

she , that Job , lost in chapter

24:12

one , she lost too , those were her children

24:14

do so . So I like to

24:17

walk people through that whole , that

24:20

whole book , because it it it kind

24:22

of gives people what I like to call

24:24

a faith defense to go okay , I don't have to

24:26

be , you know , I can

24:28

still have my faith and be

24:30

very honest with God about how I'm

24:32

feeling . I can still have my faith and

24:34

love God and still say but God , this

24:36

hurts and this hurts bad and God

24:38

, I don't know why you did it like this and I wish

24:40

you would have done it like this . But then

24:43

we get to the end of the book , we

24:45

get to chapter 42 . God

24:47

has restored that he's , he's met

24:49

with Joe , he's talked to Joe , joe's faith is

24:52

now again increased and then Joe

24:54

has 10 more children and all

24:56

of his possessions are there and always tell people

24:59

I point back to Miss Job . Clearly she

25:01

got herself together , because nowhere in scripture

25:03

does it say he got a new wife . So he had

25:05

to have a 10 babies from it .

25:07

Right .

25:09

So so it's just a beautiful walkthrough of

25:11

helping people see and understand the process

25:13

of grief and that it's okay . And then

25:15

it doesn't negate your faith

25:18

. It doesn't mean that you don't love God . It doesn't

25:20

mean that you're not still

25:22

connected to him . It means that it might be

25:24

a little weak , but but

25:26

that's okay and that's normal . And most important

25:28

thing is that God's not upset with you about

25:30

that , nor is he afraid of you , because you can say

25:32

you know you mad at him , so he's

25:35

okay with it .

25:36

And I love the fact that that Joe gets

25:39

to the point where he gets an audience

25:41

with God . He stands in front of God and

25:43

and he tries to put God on trial . And

25:45

the original language is really

25:47

funny because when God responds

25:50

back , the the Hebrew says God

25:53

tells Job to pull up his pants . And it's

25:55

and it's literally the translation is you

25:57

know , pull up your pants like a man . You asked

25:59

for this . Here it comes . So it's like

26:01

, and

26:04

God just lays his head in a , in

26:06

a , in a really powerful

26:08

way of like were you there when I formed the foundations

26:10

of the earth ? So while you're questioning

26:13

why I made like you said why I did what

26:15

I did , know that I never lost

26:17

control of this planet or society

26:19

and I don't really need your advice as a how to

26:21

do things .

26:23

Right , because because you know

26:25

we look at , at the I like to call

26:27

the morpher of it , and again not the

26:29

losses is great and it's , but

26:31

when we look at it connected to the rest

26:34

of our lives , we look back on our lives

26:36

. You know it's a guy's point , like dude , what

26:38

?

26:39

where were ?

26:39

you when I was playing in stars and

26:41

so

26:44

and and the beauty of that to your point

26:46

were able to see that

26:49

God can still hold us in this space . Well

26:51

, at the same time , the world

26:54

never stopped turning . So , even though

26:56

I'm in this really dark and difficult spot

26:58

, I'm still breathing , I'm still

27:00

waking up every day . That's only because

27:02

God allows it . The alarm clock

27:04

really didn't wake me up . I say this often

27:06

when I'm teaching , like do we hear the

27:08

alarm clock and wake up , or do we wake up

27:10

and then hear the alarm clock ? Like how does

27:12

that work ?

27:13

Right .

27:14

I don't know . That's a God thing

27:16

. So , even even in my hurt and pain

27:18

, god is still taking care of me . I'm

27:20

like you . That's that's why I love . When we get to 38

27:22

, guys like , okay , look , enough is enough . Let me

27:24

right . Let me tell you who I really

27:27

am and what I've been doing . So clearly

27:29

, you , you forgot that's right .

27:32

And I love , like in the song , when the psalmist

27:34

does that too and he's like you know God

27:36

, where are you ? And and then he turns around

27:38

in the precatory song and he goes . But

27:41

God is my refuge in my strength and

27:43

and one of the most beautiful things job says

27:45

is I know that my redeemer lives

27:47

.

27:47

I know that , yet in my flesh I

27:50

will see God , you know .

27:51

So it's like even after all , like Job

27:53

knows that I know my redeemer

27:55

lives . I know that you were guys , so

27:57

you know we need to go through that and and and

28:00

sometimes Talk to God

28:02

about those things that God

28:04

can handle it he's . He's a big boy , so it's

28:06

okay .

28:08

Absolutely , and I think it's so importantly

28:10

. We need to let other people go through

28:12

that , recognizing that they're

28:14

gonna get where they need to be , that they're gonna

28:17

land right where they need to be , and

28:19

so it's okay that they they have

28:21

those questions and they move through , because they're

28:23

gonna they're gonna find their way right back

28:25

.

28:26

And I think sometimes you may something

28:28

, me think of something . When we

28:31

stop people from doing that because

28:33

we're , we don't like the way they grieve , we're

28:35

like you should , you should be over . This is like no

28:37

, don't , don't cut off their process

28:40

, don't cut off their need to

28:42

connect with God , even maybe yell at God , because

28:44

if you cut that off you stop

28:47

them in that healing process

28:49

. So let them go , walk

28:51

with them , but don't , don't jump over

28:53

, don't jump in the middle of it and stop and

28:55

, you know , kind of derail their healing

28:57

process .

28:59

Absolutely . I completely agree , and I think one

29:01

of the reasons that we tend to do that is because

29:03

the reality is none of us like to see other

29:05

people hurt , particular the people that we love

29:07

and care about , and so For

29:10

us , it's the difficulty I say

29:12

of we can't . We can't stop it

29:14

, we can't make it go away , so we just want them . Can

29:16

you stop crying , please , because I can't

29:18

handle your tears . You know I

29:20

can't handle you hurting , so I need you to stop

29:23

. But I think that's

29:25

a lot of times where they come from . But you're absolutely

29:27

right . We we have to

29:29

give them that space to do that and

29:31

to allow God to do his work in

29:33

them and through them , in the midst of that

29:36

really , really Difficult situation

29:39

, whatever it may be , whether the death of someone

29:41

, a loss of a job , a divorce , health

29:43

challenges , whatever that may look like

29:45

.

29:47

And I think you also reminded us that All

29:50

of our loss is not the loss of a person . When

29:53

I work with Christians in their church

29:55

and there's changes in their congregation , sometimes

29:58

there's loss , there's pain

30:00

, and If you're

30:02

, if you're wise , you'll see that

30:05

some of the same behaviors that you're

30:07

experiencing , that they're experiencing , are from

30:09

that loss . So you walk people

30:11

through that loss , whether it's you've changed the

30:13

worship time , the favorite organist

30:15

quit , their favorite pastor's left

30:18

. There's grief in those different moments

30:20

.

30:21

Grief in those moments . Yeah , and that's , and those are all

30:23

the things . That's why I try to drive home so

30:26

often that grief is not just

30:28

about death , it's , it's about

30:30

loss , and and Multiple

30:32

things can lead us into a season

30:35

of grief after we've experienced a significant

30:37

loss .

30:38

Yeah . So I'd like to ask my guest

30:40

this question what are you most

30:42

excited about in this season of your life

30:45

? Oh , Wow

30:47

.

30:47

You know , that's a great question

30:49

, because I am . I'm

30:53

in a really really cool spot with

30:55

God right now . I

30:57

am in a really Really good

30:59

season , and so I think the thing I'm most excited

31:01

about is , first

31:03

of all , being able to recognize that and the

31:06

way that he is moving

31:09

me , the way that he's choosing to use

31:11

me , the work that he's allowing me

31:13

to do . There's

31:16

nothing better . I mean this , this

31:18

, this spot that I'm in

31:20

right now . I'm like God , we yeah

31:23

, I can hang out here for a minute

31:25

and Then we can just keep

31:27

doing . You know doing this thing the way you

31:29

want to do it . You know other challenges , obviously

31:31

, around me , and you know all the things . There's

31:34

always something going on , but

31:36

, but personally , god has

31:38

me in a place that I

31:40

have to be honest , I this

31:42

is the best place that I've been in . If

31:44

we use the term season , this is truly

31:47

the best season of my life and I am I

31:49

am beyond grateful .

31:51

That's awesome . My other

31:53

favorite question asked my guest is this one what

31:56

do you want your legacy to be ?

32:03

Wow , you

32:06

know I'm gonna go with that

32:10

. I love God and I love this people because

32:14

I believe that , ultimately

32:16

, that's

32:18

what we're supposed to be doing . All

32:20

the other stuff is great and

32:22

he wants us to do that , but I think when we strip

32:24

it all down , love

32:26

him and love his people , and they

32:28

can be hard to love it .

32:30

Yes , they can be difficult to love , but

32:33

so can we .

32:35

Yeah , exactly , so can

32:38

we . So I think for me , yeah

32:40

, it's love God and love his people . And

32:43

then I've got a three-year-old granddaughter , and

32:45

so for me it's living

32:47

in a way that she

32:50

gets to see what

32:52

it really looks like to live a life truly

32:55

live a life for God and

32:57

to serve him and his people

32:59

and to love Jesus . If

33:02

you'd asked me that 10

33:04

years ago , I probably had a

33:06

bit of a different answer , but yeah

33:09

.

33:11

That's awesome .

33:11

That's it . I want her to see

33:13

and I want her to know him . And I wanted it . Yeah

33:17

, wanted to be up close and personal .

33:20

So if you had a message for somebody right now is dealing

33:22

with grief , what words would

33:24

you have to encourage them right now

33:26

?

33:26

in this time in their life . You

33:31

know , I'd say to them

33:34

that God is still faithful to you in the darkness

33:36

and I know

33:38

how exceedingly dark

33:40

grief can be but

33:43

I challenge them to look

33:45

around for points

33:47

of light , not

33:50

huge beams , not

33:53

a thousand watt bowl , but just the

33:55

points of light

33:58

that show that he's still there even

34:01

in this dark season . And hold on

34:03

to those until they begin to illuminate

34:05

further , because he'll do that . He

34:08

, god is , he's

34:10

faithful , his word

34:12

says it . And if we're able to

34:14

look a

34:16

little bit beyond where we are

34:18

and even look

34:21

a little bit further back from

34:23

where we've been , we can see that

34:25

and he is

34:27

going to , he is faithful , he will

34:29

always be faithful to you , even

34:31

when it's really , really dark . There's

34:34

a point of light in there , and hold on to

34:36

it because it's going to illuminate it , and

34:38

I am , you know , I'm evident to that

34:40

.

34:41

Yeah , because it may just be pinpricks in the canvas

34:44

, but at some point those

34:46

pinpricks may become the dawn .

34:49

That's it , the dawn . The morning

34:51

really is coming .

34:52

Right .

34:53

It really is , and there truly

34:55

is some joy attached to it . It's coming

34:57

, so just keep

35:00

holding on to those , those pinpricks and those

35:02

points of light .

35:03

Right . So what can listeners find your

35:05

book ? God help me . I'm grieving , finding

35:07

healing after loss .

35:10

Yes , they can find . I love to say they can find anywhere

35:12

. Fine books are sold .

35:14

So on .

35:15

Amazon , barnes and Noble

35:17

Books of Million . If

35:21

you have a favorite bookstore in the town wherever

35:24

you live , you can find it there . They may

35:26

have to order , but they can certainly do that . You

35:28

can also find it on my website at Katherine

35:30

Barnard dot org . It's available

35:33

there also .

35:34

What can they follow you on social media ?

35:39

I am on social media everywhere , at

35:41

Mrs Kat Speaks , so

35:43

, mrskat Speaks

35:45

, you can find me on all social media

35:47

. I primarily hang out on Instagram

35:50

and Facebook , but you can find

35:52

me on the other same handle

35:54

, at Ms Kat Speaks .

35:55

Well , thank you so much , Katherine , for writing this book

35:58

, for sharing your story , for

36:00

appointing us to the light in the midst

36:02

of our darkness and our losses , no matter what

36:04

those losses may be , whether

36:07

they are the loss of a loved one or just a loss of a

36:09

job or employment or

36:11

family friends , there is

36:13

always a process of healing

36:15

if we allow ourselves to go

36:17

through that and point our eyes toward

36:20

God , who guides us through that , through those dark

36:22

times . Absolutely .

36:23

Thank you so much for having me , keith . I sincerely appreciate it . This

36:26

has been good . I love doing this , and so I thank you so much

36:28

for giving me the opportunity .

36:32

Thank you for being on the podcast .