0:14

Each of us. And I mean, you and

0:14

me, is capable of harming someone.

0:20

Not only that, each of us has,

0:24

the aftermath of harm can too often become

0:24

a scramble to be righted or absolved.

0:30

In this episode, we talk about the intricate and very

0:30

human responses we have to harm.

0:35

We talk about shame as a rejection

0:35

of connection and impact,

0:41

and we talk about the lies of patriarchy

0:41

and racism and how they lead us to

0:46

believe in our own elevated importance

0:46

and how they reinforce shame.

0:52

Richie Reseda is a music, film, and content producer who was

0:54

freed from prison in 2018.

0:58

He co-created and co-hosts the

0:58

Spotify original podcast, Abolition X.

1:02

And while in prison, he

1:02

started Question Culture,

1:05

which is the independent media

1:05

collective that houses his projects.

1:10

He also co-founded Success Stories, which

1:10

was chronicled in the CNN documentary,

1:15

Feminist on Cell Block

1:15

Y. I highly recommend it,

1:18

and I hope that you enjoy

1:18

this episode. All right.

1:23

I am so excited Richie, that

1:23

you are here with us today.

1:26

Thank you for coming onto the podcast.

1:28

Thank you for being in conversation with me. I'm really grateful that you're here.

1:32

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Of course. I will say before I ask

1:34

you the first question, I, you know,

1:39

we've been in a, in the same

1:39

friend group for a long time,

1:42

but I haven't known you. I remember

1:42

I saw you once at a fashion show.

1:47

I think in somebody's backyard, you

1:47

must have been, <laugh> a teenager.

1:51

And I was like, who is that? Who

1:51

is that? I wonder who that is. Um.

1:56

<Laugh>. But that's what...

1:58

I, I remember that shared. Yeah.

1:58

<laugh> I remember that so, well,

2:02

it was the studs fashion show. That's right.

2:04

In Patrisse's backyard in

2:04

2006. I was 14 years old.

2:07

I was trying to holler at

2:07

all the studs. For those,

2:10

for folks who are just hearing me and have never seen me, I'm very much like a tall lanky

2:12

cis dude. They were not interested.

2:17

They were like, boy <laugh> and they

2:17

were all in their twenties, and I was 14,

2:21

and it was just, it was a good time. Exactly. And you had a huge ponytail,

2:25

I think at that time mm-hmm

2:25

<affirmative> like a huge, yeah, yeah.

2:27

Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. So we are just really starting

2:29

to be in each other's orbit more,

2:32

but that is my first memory of you.

2:32

So I just wanted to share that.

2:36

I wanna start here. We ask everybody to situate

2:37

us in this time and space.

2:42

Where are we according to

2:42

you? What is this time about?

2:46

What are you paying attention to?

2:46

Where are we according to Richie?

2:51

I see us at really a tipping point

2:51

and a precipice, historically,

2:57

you know, with the pandemic

2:57

and the climate crisis,

3:01

there seems to be an awareness

3:01

of how the colonial world

3:06

that's existed for like

3:06

the last 500 years,

3:08

the capitalist world that's existed

3:08

for like the last 200 years,

3:12

is really destroying us. And, and every

3:12

person might not have that language.

3:17

I actually, I imagine most people

3:17

don't have that language. I,

3:20

I don't think anybody's

3:20

in denial of that anymore.

3:23

I think even the most capitalist

3:23

of capitalists and conservative of

3:27

conservatives understand that,

3:27

um, we're at a tipping point,

3:30

and those folks believe that

3:30

private capital will save them,

3:35

most likely at the rest of our expense. And then there's a group of us that

3:36

feel like this is the moment to

3:42

end this version of the world, which is really new in human history

3:43

and extremely new in the history of the

3:47

universe. And, and then, uh, most people are kind of in the middle

3:48

listening to both sides and kind of

3:52

picking which, which direction resonates

3:52

with them based on the struggles and,

3:57

and understandings that they

3:57

have. But it is a moment. It is.

4:00

I do believe we're all in agreement

4:00

that we are at a tipping point when you

4:04

can't go outside and

4:04

breathe the air safely,

4:07

or enjoy the weather without

4:07

questioning why it is the way it is,

4:11

just based on a few hundred

4:11

years of extraction. We're,

4:15

we're at a point where I think the general

4:15

practices of the world are about to

4:19

shift again. Mm mm-hmm <affirmative> I

4:21

think when you offer that, it,

4:24

it has me reflect on some

4:24

of what I learned from you

4:29

and watching, um, the film that you

4:29

did with CNN, Feminist on Cell Block Y,

4:34

which everyone should definitely see. And there's a good portion of the

4:36

film where you're talking about

4:40

objectification mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think about objectification

4:43

as a somatics practitioner.

4:47

I think about the ways that we

4:47

make our own bodies into objects,

4:49

where we make trees into objects. And

4:49

I, I guess I just wanna hear from you,

4:54

your perspective on, you know,

4:54

this moment of a pivot point,

4:59

as you're saying, what's the state

4:59

of our interpersonal relationships,

5:03

how are we together in this time? Hmm. You know,

5:08

I feel like capitalism

5:08

has provided us with such

5:13

limited lanes through which

5:13

to relate to each other.

5:16

And I think in some ways we're reaching,

5:16

we're trying to reach past those.

5:21

I just to give an example to what, to

5:21

what I'm saying, I'm thinking about,

5:24

you know, Valentine's day, and like capitalism has provided

5:26

us an excuse to celebrate love,

5:30

albeit in a way that centers, you know, making money for companies that sell

5:32

things. And I just think about like,

5:36

how would we relate to our

5:36

loved ones to our lovers,

5:39

to our romantic and

5:39

sexual loves without, uh,

5:42

holiday that tells us when to do it.

5:42

Yeah. I just think about kind of the,

5:46

the culture that we've built and, and

5:46

the relationship escalator and talking,

5:51

and then dating, and then moving in,

5:51

and then marriage, and then children,

5:54

all of this, obviously in

5:54

a very limited, you know,

5:56

like cis-het patriarchal

5:56

kind of way of, of thinking.

6:01

I wonder what, how we would relate to

6:01

each other outside of these things.

6:04

And I don't necessarily think all of

6:04

these things are negative all the time.

6:08

I'm, I'm not actually criticizing them right

6:08

now as much as I'm just answering the

6:11

question. I'm trying to answer the

6:12

question neutrally and say

6:16

to each other are the ways that we've

6:16

been told to relate to each other,

6:18

but I think we all have a sense that

6:18

there's something greater than that.

6:21

Mm-hmm. <Affirmative> Absolutely.

6:22

It feels like, um, oh,

6:25

what we miss out on is

6:25

choosing those things,

6:27

create something altogether different. Yeah. It, it, and,

6:30

and I think that's something

6:30

interesting about our generation.

6:34

I think we've deconstructed a lot of

6:34

those assumed relationships. You know,

6:39

my parents are Gen X, and I had

6:39

a friend over the other night,

6:43

who's also Gen X. Um, she's a

6:43

little younger than my parents,

6:45

but she was born in like the early

6:45

seventies, I think. You know,

6:49

she came up in a time where getting

6:49

married and having children with a man

6:54

was just so expected of her

6:54

that if she didn't do it,

6:57

it would feel like a personal

6:57

failure or a failure to her family.

7:01

I feel like my parents

7:01

came up in that time too.

7:03

I feel like millennials were not

7:03

completely out of the woods with that.

7:06

I know a lot of millennials, especially dependent on their

7:07

immigration status and you know, where,

7:10

where their parents are from

7:10

and who are still held to that.

7:12

But I think we've

7:12

deconstructed a lot of that.

7:15

We've moved past a lot of

7:15

those assumed ways of being,

7:19

and have moved into a lot

7:19

more chosen ways of being,

7:22

and I'm really excited about

7:22

what the next generation, gen Z,

7:25

is gonna do with that, because I feel like they, as a generation have completely

7:27

completely thrown all those assumed

7:30

relationships and ways of being away. That's right. Yeah.

7:34

Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I

7:34

think so, I get excited.

7:37

Yeah. I seen this MTV study

7:37

shortly before I got out of prison.

7:41

Cause I was doing market research

7:41

for my production company.

7:51

But it was basically saying that the

7:51

majority of gen Z, the majority of youth,

7:57

identified as queer in some way,

7:57

I just found that so encouraging,

8:02

you know, like global

8:02

consciousness is being lifted and,

8:05

and they said that trend is just as true

8:05

in Kansas, as it is in San Francisco.

8:10

It's not like just on the coast.

8:10

And that was really encouraging.

8:13

Like I think something about the way

8:13

that the internet has connected young

8:16

people to like, see like, oh, I could be

8:16

a goth black girl. Oh, I could be, oh,

8:21

I could use those pronouns. Like

8:21

there's an awakening happening.

8:25

That's right. Back in the day I was,

8:28

I went to a queer youth group

8:28

and it was called 10% Youth,

8:31

cuz that was the estimate at that

8:31

time that 10% of youth in the US

8:37

are queer. <laugh> Yo. And so when I, I

8:37

read that article too, and now I'm like,

8:40

oh, okay, times are changing. <laugh>.

8:43

Yo, I remember that stat.

8:46

I remembered using that stat in

8:46

like every debate in high school,

8:50

like one outta 10 people in this classroom

8:50

were queer, so what now? <Laugh>.

8:57

Absolutely, what now?

8:57

<Laugh> Um, so I wanna,

9:03

I feel like we're kind of touching on it, but I really wanna hear

9:04

from you about patriarchy.

9:08

I wanted you to talk to us about

9:08

patriarchy. I feel like it's, um,

9:13

its just not talked

9:13

about as thoroughly as I

9:18

think it could be considering how

9:18

much it permeates all of our lives and

9:22

relationships. So I just wanna, you know,

9:24

it's something that I've heard you talk

9:24

about so honestly, and also eloquently,

9:29

and what it takes from us,

9:29

how we all collude in it,

9:34

I just wanna hear from

9:34

you about kind of what,

9:36

what do you think patriarchy has done

9:36

to our relationships and then what's

9:41

possible? You know, I feel,

9:45

I feel a little nervous talking about

9:45

patriarchy because recently a close friend

9:48

of mine had like pointed out ways that

9:48

she experienced me as patriarchal that I

9:52

had never thought about before, and a really deep like fear

9:54

and insecurity of mine is being

9:59

one of these men who are always in

9:59

the media talking about patriarchy,

10:01

but behind closed doors,

10:01

there are like hundreds of,

10:04

of their close collaborators, women and

10:04

non-binary people, who are like, man,

10:08

this Negro, or <laugh>, you know, is,

10:08

is, is not what y'all think. You know?

10:13

So it's, it's funny like when, when

10:13

I'm asked questions about patriarchy,

10:16

I often question myself like, am I even in a position to answer this

10:17

question or to be seen as some kind of

10:23

authoritative voice in this regard? And I think what helps me in those

10:24

moments is to, to tell myself,

10:30

no, I am not an authoritative voice. Um, all I can do is process my

10:32

own patriarchy in real time,

10:35

with the understanding that I'm

10:35

learning and growing and that, you know,

10:39

sometimes I'm gonna do things that are

10:39

helpful and sometimes I'm gonna do things

10:42

that are not. So I still will

10:42

answer the question though, but I,

10:45

I wanna answer it within that framework.

10:49

Patriarchy has put us into

10:49

such a pyramid of human beings.

10:54

Mm-hmm <affirmative> That, I think it really it's in our bodies in

10:55

the ways that we even receive people and

11:00

respond to people and think

11:00

about people and talk to people.

11:03

And it really limits our ability

11:03

to connect with other human spirits

11:08

because patriarchy so informs the way

11:08

that we experience people based on where

11:13

they fall into the patriarchal pyramid

11:13

of human beings. So to give an example,

11:18

there's this couple that lives

11:18

across the street from me.

11:22

I live in south central, and they're

11:22

forever fighting and being very loud,

11:26

running in, out the house, babies in the

11:26

street, just like high drama. You know,

11:31

a couple days ago they

11:31

was outside fighting,

11:33

chasing each other up and down the

11:33

street. I wanted to holler at them before,

11:37

you know, somebody called the police,

11:37

and I went up to them and I just said,

11:40

"What's up neighbors? Can I

11:40

help with anything?" And it's a,

11:44

a black man and a black woman as, as far

11:44

as I can see, probably around my age,

11:49

like 30. I say all that because

11:49

I'm trying to give the audience,

11:52

even their understanding of the identities

11:52

as framed by patriarchy of these

11:57

people. You know, because it has everything to do with

11:58

how they're about to respond to me.

12:01

The woman who's crying, and

12:01

angry, turns to me and says,

12:05

"I'm just trying to get to work. He won't gimme my keys to get to work."

12:06

He has his whole body scrunched up in

12:11

a way that, if you from LA, you know this particular like gangsta

12:13

posture of just like the walk and like the

12:17

scrunched up arms, like held close to

12:17

the chest and like the whole swag, like,

12:22

and, and he's just like, "It's my keys too. It's my keys too." And he goes

12:24

upstairs and he goes in the house. Um,

12:28

so now I'm talking to the, to, to the woman, I said, "Do you want me to get you an Uber?"

12:30

And he comes back outside, and he says,

12:33

"You better quit talking

12:33

to this <expletive> or you

12:37

Talking to her about me. So there's a lot of patriarchal

12:38

signaling happening now.

12:41

Like he's really talking to me, but he's addressing me through her

12:43

because I am even speaking to her,

12:47

because patriarchy so dictates

12:47

our relationships to say,

12:51

you don't speak to "my woman,"

12:51

quote unquote, my woman. Right.

12:55

But I also think he saw me as somebody

12:55

to threaten because I look like

13:00

him, because patriarchy paints

13:00

black men to each other,

13:04

as people who are a threat. I have a neighbor who's kind of like

13:07

the matriarch of the neighborhood,

13:10

older black woman. She's heavily

13:10

involved in a local church.

13:14

Everybody knows her by

13:14

name. She knows everybody.

13:17

I wonder if she went up to

13:17

them and said, "Hey, neighbors,

13:21

is everything alright, what can I do to help?" I

13:22

sincerely doubt he would've said,

13:26

"You better quit talking to her, you gonna get her punched on." And

13:27

that's not to say that she would've been

13:31

safer in that situation than I was. I'm just saying that to point out the

13:33

ways that patriarchy gives us these kind

13:37

of like set relationships, these set ways

13:37

of seeing and relating to each other,

13:41

just based on her age, and her gender,

13:41

and you know, the shapes of her body,

13:46

how she would've been received

13:46

versus my age, and my gender,

13:49

and the shapes of my body,

13:49

and how I was received.

13:51

That's just one example of how I

13:51

could have responded the same way with

13:55

aggression. We could have been fighting in the middle of the street, but police actually did end up pulling up,

13:58

and we both would be in jail right now. I got two strikes. I would be fighting a life

14:00

sentence, as we speak. And all of that was based on this

14:02

patriarchal understandings that we have

14:08

of each other. I just use

14:08

that example to paint,

14:10

we're constantly doing that with every

14:10

single person we walk by every moment of

14:15

every day. We already have an idea of who

14:16

they are and who they are to us.

14:20

There's already a script or

14:20

a map for our relationship.

14:23

Right? Like what their

14:23

existence means about us.

14:26

That's right. That's

14:26

right. That's right. That,

14:28

that other people's existence can affirm

14:28

something about us or deny something

14:33

about us or it's always

14:33

contingent who we are.

14:36

I think that's why a lot of cis-dudes get

14:36

so angry at the fact that gender queer

14:40

people even exist. Because

14:40

it's like within patriarchy,

14:43

patriarchy tells us like it is my

14:43

cis-maleness that gives me value.

14:48

And it is my man over

14:48

womanness that gives me value.

14:52

And if man isn't quite what I think it is, and woman isn't quite what I think it is,

14:56

and these categories don't really exist,

14:59

and therefore these

14:59

positionalities don't really exist,

15:01

then I guess I don't have no value. So now I'm gonna enact violence on you

15:03

to reassert what I believe to be true.

15:07

And what I believe gives me value. The question I have is like, how do

15:09

we make it so that our identities are,

15:12

are less contingent on

15:12

dominance or less contingent on

15:18

getting constant reinforcement

15:18

or affirmation from one another?

15:22

Cuz I see white supremacy

15:22

obviously working in similar ways.

15:26

I think about that interview

15:26

with Tony Morrison,

15:29

where she's talking about white supremacy

15:29

and she's talking about whiteness and

15:33

she says, "You know, if you take away this myth of white

15:34

supremacy from white people then they're

15:38

faced with the question

15:38

of, am I any good?" Like,

15:43

what am I made of? And our fear of confronting

15:45

that question-Who am I actually?

15:49

What am I made of?-keeps

15:49

these systems in place?

15:54

It, it, it boggles my mind that the

15:54

fear of that question is so intense

16:00

that, you know, people will say,

16:00

when we're talking about patriarchy,

16:03

you're talking about toxic masculinity, you're anti-men or you

16:06

don't want men to exist, instead of facing the

16:08

question of, who am I? And

16:13

how much have I outsourced or made my

16:13

self-identity contingent on other people?

16:18

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You feel what I'm saying? Yes. Yes, absolutely. And,

16:22

and I think that that's why at least

16:22

in Success Stories, the program,

16:26

feminist programs that we run

16:26

in prisons, mostly for men,

16:29

but no longer exclusively for men, we start by helping people

16:31

get back to themselves,

16:34

whether that be back to childhood or just

16:34

back to their real desires and goals,

16:39

so that they can see who they are outside

16:39

of all these societal expectations and

16:44

then start building a life that

16:44

is in service of that person.

16:48

That's beautiful. Thank you.

16:51

Can I ask you a question, cuz I think oftentimes what these systems

16:53

do is that they don't make it safe

16:56

enough to reveal who we

16:56

learn from, or our teachers,

17:01

especially if our teachers are women

17:01

or queer folks or disabled folks, we,

17:06

we think that we do things on

17:06

our own or arrive on our own.

17:08

I think patriarchy teaches us that. So I I've heard you talk about some of

17:10

your teachers that I'm just curious,

17:14

like how did this analysis come to you?

17:18

How has this become your

17:18

work? Who taught you?

17:21

I love that question. It's all

17:21

people who, you know, well,

17:26

my mentors were and are Patrisse Cullors,

17:30

and Mark Anthony Johnson,

17:30

and also Vitaly and,

17:35

and Jason David. And, but you

17:35

know what also Kanye West,

17:39

Pharrell Williams,

17:41

and Tony Morrison and Octavia Butler

17:41

and bell hooks and bell hooks and

17:46

bell hooks and bell hooks. And

17:46

lastly, my best friend Hawan Asfa,

17:51

my ex-wife Taina Vargas. These people who loved me

17:53

and saw something in me at

17:59

Much of my political training

17:59

looked like very official,

18:02

we are sitting down for

18:02

political education sessions,

18:05

but a lot of it looked like

18:05

watching Patrisse exist

18:10

in the world as a Black queer

18:10

woman who demanded to be treated

18:15

with love and the same love and

18:15

respect that she gave everybody else.

18:19

And that was just such a

18:19

radical vision for me. You know,

18:22

I was not raised around Black women.

18:22

My father is Black. My mother is white.

18:26

All the men I know in my

18:26

family are with white women,

18:30

but being around Patrisse, I remember,

18:34

I think it was the second time Patrisse

18:34

and Mark Anthony came to my high school

18:38

class. I met them in my high

18:38

school, ninth grade science class.

18:41

I was in the science class for all the

18:41

kids who were failing. And the kid, the,

18:44

the class was almost completely Black.

18:44

Even though we were 6% of the school.

18:47

They were talking, they were actually

18:47

talking about mass incarceration.

18:50

And this kid named Devin raised

18:50

his hand, said, I have a question.

18:55

Patrise said, "What?" He said,

18:55

"What's your phone number?

18:59

And Patrisse is 21 at this time, which

18:59

to me seemed grown as hell. I was 14,

19:03

but I look back and understand

19:03

that's not the case.

19:06

And everybody laughed when devin

19:06

asked that. He raised his hand, said,

19:09

"I got a question. What's your number?"

19:09

Everyone laughed. She didn't laugh.

19:12

She didn't shift in her, her

19:12

body language. She didn't move.

19:15

She didn't stop looking at

19:15

Devin in his eyes. And she said,

19:19

"I'm going to come back when you all can

19:19

respect me." And she just walked out.

19:26

Mark Anthony was stuck there looking

19:26

like Michael Myers when Kanye said that

19:29

George Bush don't care about

19:29

Black people. <laugh> and <laugh>.

19:34

And I just remember seeing that, and

19:34

I was very deeply affected by that.

19:39

You know, I think who I am politically is

19:40

just somebody who tries to move with

19:45

a politic that is empathetic to human

19:45

beings when they're in those moments.

19:50

That's such a powerful story. And I think that last piece around

19:51

having empathy in those hard moments, it,

19:56

it has me thinking about a lot of the

19:56

things I've heard you talk about or share

20:00

around transformative

20:00

justice and accountability.

20:05

And I, I guess first, I just wanna hear

20:05

from you kind of what those mean to you,

20:10

why those are important to you as concepts

20:10

or practices really in particular.

20:15

But, um, yeah. I'd just like you to talk some about

20:16

transformative justice in particular.

20:20

This question actually leads

20:20

me to kind of go back to what,

20:23

what we were just talking about in

20:23

terms of like my political teaching.

20:28

I feel like my political

20:28

teachers taught me how to think;

20:31

they didn't necessarily teach me what to think. Nobody ever sat me down and said the

20:33

words "transformative justice" to me.

20:37

To keep it 100, I don't know if anybody sat me down

20:38

and said the word "abolition" to me.

20:42

By the time I was engaging

20:42

in those schools of thought,

20:45

but my political teachers taught me how

20:45

to think: how to think systemically;

20:49

how to think about how conditions

20:49

affect people's mental health and then

20:53

therefore people make choices

20:53

based on their mental health;

20:56

how to think economically. So, I robbed

20:56

three stores when I was 19 years old;

21:01

they tried to give me 150 years to life.

21:04

I ended up getting 10 years and two

21:04

strikes after fighting the case for a year

21:08

with the private attorney that

21:08

Patrisse and my whole community,

21:11

that I just named, helped raise money for

21:11

me to get. And I'm in the county jail.

21:16

The spot where I did most of my time

21:16

in the county jail was East Max,

21:19

which may be closed now, but it was where they sent everybody

21:20

who was in their twenties and fighting

21:24

life. And there was 150 of us in a dorm,

21:28

probably the size of a small

21:28

apartment, 50 triple layer bunks.

21:32

And it was madness. It was absolute,

21:36

chaotic madness. I was sent to

21:36

the hospital. I have stitches.

21:40

I have multiples of scars all

21:40

over my face and body from,

21:44

from living in that environment.

21:44

And when I would get on the phone,

21:47

I would talk to people who, who would say things like "end the school

21:48

to prison pipeline;" "a thousand more

21:51

buses, a thousand less police;" and

21:51

"close prisons and jails," You know,

21:56

at this very time, DPN (Dignity and Power Now) was fighting

21:58

to close parts of the LA county jail.

22:02

So, I was trying to make it

22:02

make sense in my own head,

22:05

as an incarcerated person in a community

22:05

that had abolitionist sentiments.

22:10

I don't know if we're using that

22:10

language quite as, as much as we do now.

22:13

I was like, yo, I did rob these stores.

22:15

And most of these people in here did

22:15

do whatever these things were. Like,

22:19

obviously the conditions aren't

22:19

right. And it's not right,

22:21

that it's damn near all Black in

22:21

here when LA is not black like that,

22:25

but I couldn't quite

22:25

grasp what was wrong with

22:30

the idea of prison yet. It was through thinking about it and

22:33

experiencing the pain and experiencing the

22:37

treatment that I eventually realized

22:37

that what was at the heart of it,

22:42

emotionally person to person,

22:42

was the idea of revenge.

22:47

And that revenge is actually not a healthy, helpful or sustainable shape to

22:49

put our bodies and hearts in.

22:54

That is what led me to abolitionist

22:54

thought and transformative justice thought

22:59

when I was in prison, before I ever, you know, read anything about what those things

23:01

were, that's kind of where I started.

23:06

I started realizing that

23:06

it's unsustainable. You

23:10

Well, now you're hurt again, so you're gonna hurt me, and I'm hurt again, so I'mma hurt you. That's not actually

23:12

the best way for humans to move,

23:16

so what do we do when we feel harmed?

23:16

What is it that we actually need?

23:21

And as somebody who is living, you know, in an extremely harmful place and

23:22

being harmed every day by mere existing

23:27

in prison, I just became acutely aware of what I

23:28

needed and then empathizing with the

23:32

people who I harmed and realizing

23:32

that they needed that too.

23:36

And that's what led me to thinking

23:36

a lot about accountability.

23:41

Okay. Okay. So I wanna just slow down because I feel

23:43

like you shared something that is just

23:46

so critical for us to grapple with.

23:49

We had Mariame Kaba on the podcast

23:49

last season, and she talked about,

23:54

I mean, amazing. And she talked about how partly we

23:55

have to acknowledge that we have these

24:00

impulses or desires or feelings,

24:03

if you will that aren't

24:03

necessarily what we call good.

24:07

That sometimes we have the

24:07

impulse to hurt each other.

24:10

That is a thing that happens. And

24:10

if we can't be honest about that,

24:15

then we can't actually build

24:15

transformative processes or accountability

24:18

processes that take that into account. So when you talk about

24:21

revenge as being a motivator,

24:25

I just feel like that's a

24:25

really powerful thing to say.

24:28

And a powerful thing to say, we

24:28

experience this. We want revenge.

24:32

That is a thing that happens

24:32

inside of us. And, um, I guess I,

24:37

I, I would like you to just share

24:37

about what do you think revenge is?

24:41

You kind of touched on it, but I

24:41

just really wanna like give it space.

24:44

What is revenge to you?

24:48

What is revenge? Revenge is the desire to hurt

24:49

those who we feel harmed by.

24:56

And I agree. I think it's important that

24:56

we acknowledge that that's a natural

25:01

desire. There's actually a phrase.

25:01

Dang it. I can't remember the word.

25:06

It's like a German word. That names an,

25:09

the emotion that is the pleasure

25:09

of seeing those who we dislike,

25:14

be harmed. And there's a documentary out right

25:16

now that Monica Lewinsky produced about

25:20

shame, where they go into this. That's

25:20

where I learned it from. You know,

25:23

there's all these studies that

25:23

show that like with soccer fans,

25:27

they got more joy out of

25:27

seeing their rival team,

25:30

miss a goal than they got out of

25:30

seeing their team make a goal,

25:34

even when their rival team

25:34

was playing a different team.

25:37

And that is something important

25:37

to acknowledge. That's

25:40

a chemical thing in us. We can't get rid of something

25:43

if we don't acknowledge it.

25:45

And I appreciate everything

25:45

I've heard Mariame say. Um, and,

25:49

and this is included in that. And I wanna

25:49

say too, when I am my healthiest self,

25:54

when I am well fed, when I am well rested,

25:57

when I feel comfortable with being

25:57

honest with myself and others,

26:02

I feel that feeling less. Mm-hmm <affirmative>,

26:04

mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I feel more invested in people's

26:06

transformation than their pain,

26:10

even when they are hurting me. So,

26:10

to give examples, when that dude,

26:15

my neighbor, told his girl, you gonna

26:15

get this <expletive> punched on,

26:20

I was out there, knowing

26:20

why I was out there,

26:23

deeply tapped in with who he

26:23

was, seeing him really as me,

26:27

and I did not take it

26:27

personally like that.

26:30

It didn't super bother me in the

26:30

moment. Now that was a couple days ago.

26:34

That memory has been pretty heavy on

26:34

my heart since then. And you know what,

26:38

in the moments when I'm

26:38

hungry and dehydrated and

26:41

to go take care of myself, I feel more angry about that moment

26:43

and more desire to hurt that man.

26:47

And in moments where I feel good, where

26:47

I just came fresh off of, you know,

26:51

playing the piano or, or, or fresh

26:51

off going on a cute date, man, I,

26:55

I want to go knock on that

26:55

dude's door and give him a hug.

26:59

Literally that's right. The story hasn't changed, but my feelings have changed

27:01

based on how I'm doing. Mm.

27:04

That's powerful. I just think what you're saying about

27:06

having the resources, being resourced,

27:11

having the resources to be

27:11

like, I'm gonna be okay,

27:14

it makes all of this or the harm that

27:14

we experience between each other.

27:17

It's not just something that

27:17

happens between you and I.

27:22

It's also a systemic thing. Do

27:22

I have, am I resourced enough?

27:27

Do I have people around me? Do I have love around me so that

27:28

the hard things in life can't

27:33

take me down a revenge road or whatever

27:33

kind of destructive road it might be

27:38

in the same way. Mm-hmm <affirmative>

27:38

Are we resourcing each other?

27:42

Do we have enough resources

27:42

collectively that we can adjust, pivot,

27:47

have empathy, transform

27:47

a situation that it's,

27:50

it's less individual to

27:50

me what you're sharing?

27:53

Yeah. Well, we've built a

27:53

system completely based in

27:58

Men's insecurities largely, but

27:58

white men's insecurities the most.

28:02

So we have systemized white

28:02

male thinking at its worst,

28:06

especially in the criminal justice system.

28:09

When dudes are in our

28:09

super like fragile ego,

28:15

my manhood, and therefore my value, is

28:15

on the line. When we're in that body,

28:19

we are our most violent, and we have created an entire global

28:21

system of military and war and

28:26

you know, the carceral system,

28:26

it all comes from that body.

28:29

It all comes from that way of

28:29

being. That's why to heal people,

28:33

It don't make no damn sense, but

28:33

when we're our most unhealed,

28:37

we can't envision anything else. Let's talk about that insecurity.

28:40

And let's talk about shame,

28:42

cuz I've heard you talk,

28:42

you know, about shame in,

28:45

in ways that are just so powerful to me. And I, it makes you think of James Baldwin

28:47

when he talks about innocence.

28:50

And this is something that I

28:50

think about and write about some,

28:54

our preoccupation with being innocent

28:54

and innocent being a justification for

28:58

violence. And if we always

28:58

have to be innocent or right,

29:02

if we always have to

29:02

protect our self image,

29:04

then it'll lead us to doing

29:04

some of the most violent things.

29:08

And I hear that in what you're saying,

29:11

like the insecurity that's kind of

29:11

embedded in our system or the insecurity

29:16

in individual people that

29:16

subscribe to patriarchy,

29:21

it sets us up for

29:21

violence. And I wonder how,

29:25

like we think of shame as just

29:25

almost kind of benign or, oh,

29:29

I wish I didn't feel shame for her.

29:29

I wish, you know, shame is kind of a,

29:33

a thing we wish we didn't feel, but shame

29:33

has some real repercussions, I think.

29:38

Shame does a lot of things

29:38

in our movements, but in

29:42

So I would just like to hear you talk

29:42

about how you see shame operating and how

29:46

it prevents accountability

29:46

or relates to accountability,

29:50

how it relates to

29:50

intimacy or relationship.

29:53

What is shame out here

29:53

doing according to you?

29:57

Yo shame is a toxin. I believe

29:57

shame is literally a neurotoxin.

30:02

I don't know the scientific

30:02

words for what, you know,

30:06

chemicals it puts in our body, but it is literally like a drug that

30:08

disables us from being our most creative,

30:13

our most accountable, our most honest,

30:13

our most loving, our most accepting.

30:19

At some level, we know that. And I think

30:19

that's why we cast it on each other.

30:23

It's so powerful. It's like a gun.

30:23

You know, like if there's an argument,

30:28

somebody pulls out a gun. The argument has now changed everything

30:30

about the dynamic in the room has now

30:33

changed. And that's the same thing that

30:33

happens with shame. I know for myself,

30:38

I can be having a conversation,

30:38

as soon as shame is introduced,

30:41

either by the other person

30:41

or by myself to myself,

30:43

it changes the whole

30:43

nature of the conversation.

30:46

Like, I've been moving through conflict with

30:47

a very close friend of mine for pretty

30:51

much the entire year so far. Something that I notice for

30:53

myself is that when I feel shame,

30:57

I go straight into my fight,

30:57

flight, or freeze mode and, and my,

31:01

my personal one is to freeze.

31:01

That's where I often go.

31:05

And that I can have the same

31:05

conversation and take the shame out,

31:09

and then I get to lean into curiosity.

31:09

Oh, that hurt you, what I did. Wow.

31:13

This person was hurt by me. Let me give that it's full moment and

31:14

just reflect on the fact that this person

31:17

felt hurt. Then, I can

31:17

say, let me be curious.

31:22

What exactly about that hurts

31:22

you? What exactly, how do you,

31:25

how do you remember it? What

31:25

are you trying to say right now?

31:27

What are you trying to get from

31:27

your brain through your mouth,

31:30

through the airwaves, into my

31:30

ear, into my head, into my heart?

31:33

How do I give that its full respect

31:33

because you're experiencing it and spirit

31:37

put us together in relationship. But

31:37

when the shame, when I feel shame,

31:41

it's none of that. It's how do I make sure that I

31:42

debunk everything you're saying,

31:45

so I can continue seeing myself a version

31:45

of myself that doesn't make people

31:49

feel that way. Mm. Come on Richie.

31:53

<Laugh> That's the

31:53

opposite of accountability.

31:56

Now I'm trying to debate

31:56

you on your own experience,

31:59

or maybe even debate you on my intentions

31:59

that led to your experience so that I

32:03

can separate your experience from

32:03

any reflection of who I actually am.

32:07

And we're not getting anywhere.

32:07

That's not accountable,

32:10

if accountable is to acknowledge

32:10

the harm that I've caused to you,

32:15

if accountable is to acknowledge the

32:15

choices I made, that led to harm and to,

32:19

deeper than that, commit to never

32:19

doing it again, deeper than that,

32:21

commit to building a world where that

32:21

never happens at all. When there's shame,

32:25

and now I'm just trying to

32:25

protect my view of myself,

32:28

we're not getting to none of that. Hmm. That,

32:32

that part about protecting

32:32

the image of ourselves, I,

32:36

I don't think we talk about that enough,

32:36

that. You know, we think about fight,

32:40

flight, freeze. We talk about

32:40

those. Those are protective moves.

32:45

They're protective moves, and makes

32:45

sense. We feel like a part of ourselves,

32:50

our self-image, our self-concept

32:50

is under some kind of attack.

32:54

And in a way it could be, but also,

32:57

in a way we're being

32:57

potentially invited into a

33:01

transformation, a change. And if we think it's possible for

33:04

ourselves to change, then accountability,

33:08

isn't... it's still hard. I mean, I

33:08

don't know anybody that's like, oh,

33:12

I love when people are like, yo, you

33:12

gotta be accountable for this thing.

33:16

It's hard because we have to move through

33:16

these hard feelings. And yet it's,

33:20

if we are more comfortable with

33:20

transformation and change, it's,

33:25

we know that there's something in it for us, or we know that there's a gift in it.

33:28

We know there's a gift in

33:28

our relationship. There's

33:31

Yes. Yeah. More comfortable with transformation

33:33

and change. But I, you know, Prentis, I,

33:37

I feel like the frontier that we're

33:37

on right now is as abolitionists and

33:42

transformative justice practitioners

33:42

is to even convince society that

33:46

transforming, that transformation

33:46

and change is a worthwhile goal.

33:49

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

33:52

Right. Because we're not even

33:52

oriented towards that right now.

33:54

I'm thinking about Whoopi Goldberg saying

33:54

this antisemitic <expletive> on the

33:58

view like that, the

33:58

Holocaust wasn't about race,

34:00

and ABC's response to that was to kick

34:00

her off the show for two weeks. Like,

34:04

what is that? What? Like

34:04

we're suspending people now?

34:06

Like what they're really doing

34:06

is signaling to the audience,

34:10

we understand this was wrong, now

34:10

we're properly shaming this person,

34:14

so you don't shame us. It's like, everybody's just trying to play hot

34:16

potato with the ball of shame when it's

34:20

actually like, "yo, that don't do

34:20

nothing for Jewish people." As,

34:23

as a Jewish person, you know, as, as a person who has at least one family

34:24

member that I know of who died in the

34:27

Holocaust, that doesn't do nothing for my

34:28

grandmother who's 92 years old right now,

34:32

who knew of that cousin who died like

34:32

that, that doesn't do anything for her,

34:36

Whoopi Goldberg kicked off the show

34:36

for two weeks. Who cares? Like,

34:39

when actually there is an opportunity

34:39

for transformation and change and like,

34:43

yo, Whoopi said this thing,

34:43

we believe it to be harmful,

34:46

we're gonna actually reengage this

34:46

conversation and educate her and all the

34:50

people in the audience who felt the

34:50

same way she did so that you have an

34:54

opportunity to change. And then when they change, us being able to celebrate that,

34:58

and be like growth was made here

34:58

for this person, and for all of us.

35:01

That is a goal that a lot of people can't

35:01

even foresee or even see the value in

35:06

because our bodies are so hyped

35:06

off the drugs of shame or trying

35:11

to flee from shame. That's right. Mm mm. Mm. You know,

35:15

I wanna shift to asking you about

35:15

culture because I feel like what you

35:21

do, you really skillfully and

35:21

beautifully break the rules.

35:26

You like break the rules of culture in

35:26

such a compelling way. <laugh> That,

35:32

you know, you're like, why not? There

35:32

is something on the other side of this,

35:35

and I see that in your work. And I see

35:35

that in Question Culture. It's like,

35:40

well, why can't we do something different? So, I want you to talk to me about cultural

35:42

work, the, the role of it, what you see,

35:46

and what you're trying to do around

35:46

culture-building and culture-shifting.

35:50

Yo, thank you so, so much for that.

35:50

I, I have a, a clarifying question.

35:54

When you say like, why not? Or what

35:54

rules are you talking about breaking?

35:59

Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> and when you say there, there is something on the other side of

36:01

this, what is on the other side of what?

36:05

In the conversation on patriarchy,

36:05

you're breaking the rules,

36:08

you're kind of sharing what are the

36:08

limitations of patriarchy and not in

36:13

a way that's trying to hang onto. I think oftentimes when we get close

36:15

to a conversation around power and

36:20

manhood, there's a way that it

36:20

still is trying to reinforce itself.

36:25

And I think that you are

36:25

<laugh>. Do you know what I mean?

36:28

Yeah, I think so. The way that you are engaging with

36:30

questions of patriarchy from this place of

36:35

curiosity, what can I learn

36:35

from the people around me?

36:38

What can I learn from bell hooks?

36:38

What can I learn from my teachers?

36:42

It is really looking to the beyond.

36:45

It's not trying to

36:45

reinforce or reassert, um,

36:49

really a patriarchal

36:49

understanding. You're saying,

36:51

I think there could be more for my life. I think there could be

36:53

more for our lives. So I,

36:56

I think that's what I'm referring

36:56

to is that I think that you

37:01

go to the edge and, and,

37:01

and say that there's,

37:05

there's something more here

37:05

that we haven't yet embodied.

37:08

<laugh> There's something that

37:08

we haven't yet done. And yeah.

37:13

I don't know if that clarifies the question, but? Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

37:16

I'm, I'm honored by that.

37:18

I feel like so much of

37:18

what happens on the left,

37:21

and maybe this comes from academia,

37:21

is like people being like,

37:24

I read this book and

37:24

therefore I am a good leftist.

37:27

And like the goal is to just have the

37:27

right beliefs and like say the properly

37:32

woke thing. That's why I actually really

37:32

don't <expletive> with

37:36

at all. Cuz it's so it is patriarchal.

37:39

It's still about creating a

37:39

hierarchy. And you know what?

37:43

When the right criticizes us for that,

37:43

they're right. I just wanna say that.

37:47

When conservative people are like,

37:47

you're just a social justice warrior,

37:50

that's obsessed with being

37:50

woke, nine times outta 10,

37:52

the people they're talking to, they're correct. <laugh> And we need to acknowledge that.

37:55

We can't gaslight people and be like,

37:58

"no, you're just racist." Yes,

37:58

they are racist. But also,

38:01

they understand what the left is doing

38:01

in terms of wielding shame and calling it

38:07

activism and organizing. That's not

38:07

activism. That's not organizing.

38:10

Canceling people on the internet isn't

38:10

activism and organizing. Like, you know,

38:15

I hate it when people use the term problematic. Problematic has grown to be just a

38:17

term that means not properly woke.

38:21

When it's like, you're not actually centering the way

38:21

that people can grow and transform.

38:25

And you're just saying like,

38:25

"oh, that movie is problematic.

38:28

It's just not properly woke." And

38:28

it's like, "sure, I'm sure it's not.

38:32

And let's instead be like, 'yo,

38:34

what can we learn about the depiction

38:34

of this character that helps us treat

38:38

folks who share this identity better in

38:38

real life?'" That's more interesting to

38:42

me than saying "the way they depicted X,

38:42

Y, Z character is problematic. I am a,

38:47

a good leftist and, and I approve this

38:47

message" <laugh> So, yeah. Anyway, I,

38:52

I think, I just, I feel like things

38:52

like that are, are important to say,

38:56

because I don't know.

38:56

I, I just, I, I can't,

39:00

I can't not see people. I've,

39:03

I've spent too much time being considered

39:03

the worst of the worst. You know,

39:06

I was kicked outta the fourth grade when I was eight years old. Like I've been locked up. I've

39:08

been kicked out classes. I've been,

39:12

they tried to gimme 150

39:12

years to life. You know,

39:14

some of my best friends have

39:14

committed brutal murders and rapes,

39:19

and they're people and they're trying to be better. And I felt like there was more value

39:22

in seeing how I can contribute to them

39:27

being better, and see how they

39:27

can contribute to me being better,

39:29

than saying they're not properly

39:29

woke enough for me. That, that,

39:33

that way of being wouldn't have worked for me in prison. I wouldn't have no friends. And if

39:35

the people who we mentioned earlier,

39:38

the Patrisses and Mark Anthonys and

39:38

Hawans, if wokeness was their standard,

39:42

then I wouldn't have been allowed

39:42

to be their friend either.

39:44

Cuz I was out here gang-banging and being patriarchal as hell. So I just feel like that's important.

39:47

That's the deeper questioning of culture.

39:52

Like, you know, when I do the

39:52

Question Culture videos, I,

39:55

I don't wanna just get on there and, and name all the music that came

39:56

out this week and be like, this is,

39:59

this is problematic cuz of this and this

39:59

is anti-feminist cuz this and da, da,

40:02

da, I'd rather be like, yo, what can we learn from this in terms of

40:04

how we wanna show up in life and how we

40:09

can make the world a better place? Let's

40:09

push the culture forward, you know,

40:13

not talk about it for

40:13

likes on the gram. Whew.

40:18

That's good. That's

40:18

good. It's controversial.

40:20

People are gonna have some

40:20

feelings about it and I love it.

40:23

<Laugh> Yeah. I mean, you know,

40:27

I had to really learn that the opinion

40:27

of the internet is not liberation.

40:33

<Laugh>. It's not the same. What

40:34

<expletive> on Twitter think.

40:37

And when I say <expletive>, I mean all y'all. And what is actually an

40:40

equitable, healthy, safe,

40:43

sustainable way for human beings to

40:43

live are not necessarily the same thing.

40:47

That's right. I was set free by that. That's.

40:50

Right. That's right. You know, when, when we

40:52

started doing Success Stories,

40:54

people would always be like, you can't

40:54

turn hood <expletive> into feminists.

40:58

When I've hollered at some of my

40:58

homies about hollering at their homies,

41:01

who I don't know, they'd be like, bro, this <expletive> is not gonna

41:02

understand that blah, blah, blah.

41:04

Like I understand where you're coming

41:04

from, bro. Don't get me wrong, but da, da,

41:08

da, da. And I just genuinely,

41:08

I just know that's not true.

41:12

My life has shown me that that is not true. Every single one of my close male friends

41:14

is a hood <expletive> that became a

41:17

feminist. So I just believe in us in a different

41:17

way that I think could very well be based

41:22

on my own privilege, you know? Like I can have these conversations with

41:24

dudes in a way where I feel relatively

41:27

safe. And even with homeboy the other day,

41:30

if he really did try me and try to

41:30

hit me, like I knew I would be okay.

41:34

So I feel like that's worth acknowledging, but even that's a very like

41:36

lefty internet thing to do.

41:38

I acknowledge my privilege

41:38

before I say any points,

41:41

but <laugh> <laugh> It's annoying.

41:41

It's important sometimes,

41:46

but sometimes it's, it's

41:46

literally just culture.

41:49

Like I had to learn while I was in prison

41:49

what the difference was between like

41:54

what's getting us towards liberation

41:54

and what is just leftist culture.

41:58

Right, right, right. Richie,

41:58

I wanna ask you a question.

42:00

I know it kind of takes us down another

42:00

road. I feel so aligned with like,

42:04

we have to have a culture that

42:04

people can change inside of.

42:09

Because if we have a culture that

42:09

people can't actually transform,

42:13

then we're not going anywhere.

42:13

We're not building anything.

42:16

And at the same time, I do feel that there's a difference in

42:17

that scenario where you're talking with

42:21

your neighbors. There's a, there's

42:21

a difference. Now I would probably,

42:25

I have intervened on situations

42:25

like that. And I think that I,

42:28

I could be delusional in a way,

42:30

but sometimes I think I can handle

42:30

every situation. It's not true, but I,

42:34

I would probably have intervened, but I know that there are other people

42:36

that would feel like that would be a

42:40

dangerous intervention for me. I know that I would be dismissed or

42:41

maybe my body might be, you know,

42:45

I might be harmed if I got hit,

42:45

et cetera, et cetera. How do we,

42:48

and I know it's not, I know that

42:48

it's not a one, it's not one answer,

42:52

but there is that dynamic tension

42:52

between what can you withstand

42:57

in the body that you are? And then what,

43:01

how do we also build a culture where

43:01

we're not constantly preoccupied with a

43:06

kind of false safety that won't ever let

43:06

us come into contact with one another?

43:11

Do you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I,

43:13

I hear you to be saying like the way

43:13

that things currently exist, you know,

43:17

our identities and sizes

43:17

do protect us in some ways,

43:20

but also how do we not allow that to limit us? Our sizes? But also when we,

43:24

we were talking at the top of

43:24

the podcast about these scripts,

43:28

these ways that we look at someone and

43:28

say, this is what you can and can't do.

43:32

This is who you are to me. So this is

43:32

the range of ways that I will treat you.

43:38

I know that there are scripts. I know when people look at me, I can kind of guess

43:39

what those scripts are, but that has people engage

43:42

with us in particular ways.

43:44

That has people treat us in particular ways. That has people try some

43:46

of us and not try others,

43:49

or try us in these scenarios and

43:49

not try us in these scenarios.

43:52

So how do we hold the real world

43:52

experiences? Like <expletive> does happen.

43:57

And at the same time we

43:57

have to be willing to,

44:02

this is maybe a controversial

44:02

thing I'm gonna say,

44:05

but I have to almost be

44:05

willing to be a little bit hurt

44:10

<laugh> in order to get close, in

44:10

order to have closeness, in order to,

44:15

um, really build and

44:15

connect with each other.

44:19

I know that you're not gonna

44:19

treat me in the most perfect way.

44:21

I know that I'm not gonna treat

44:21

you in the most perfect way.

44:24

I know that I will miss you. I

44:24

know that I will hurt you. But I,

44:28

if I know that we are both committed

44:28

to transformation and change,

44:32

it's kind of like that

44:32

resourcing thing. I,

44:35

I have a little bit more resource

44:35

to work through those hard moments,

44:39

but I think as it stands

44:39

now, we've been hurt,

44:43

we don't wanna be hurt again. And then we end up not actually

44:44

building relationships,

44:47

the relationships that we

44:47

need actually for this moment.

44:51

Yeah. I think something that would be helpful

44:51

is for us to move much more slowly and

44:57

deliberately with how we

44:57

build relationships and

45:01

that comes with having relationships

45:01

and surrender to that. And,

45:06

and we don't have to do that with everybody. I don't think it's sustainable

45:08

to do that with everybody. So to,

45:12

to just give examples

45:12

to what I'm saying. Yes,

45:16

one thing that may have protected me and

45:16

allowed me to move with safety in that

45:20

intervention with the domestic dispute

45:20

that was happening with my neighbors was

45:24

my, like cis-maleness, probably my

45:24

tattoos, probably my height, you know,

45:28

I'm six, four. I also believe if that man's grandmother

45:29

walked out in the middle of the street

45:33

and said, "What's going on'," I think he would've, he would've responded a lot better than

45:35

he even did to me. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

45:39

Because they have that relationship.

45:39

They already have it. The,

45:42

the biggest uphill battle for me,

45:42

wasn't the sizes of the humans.

45:45

It was these people don't know

45:45

me. Part of why he probably said,

45:48

"You gonna get this <expletive> punched

45:48

on" is because the only way that we're

45:53

used to even seeing men intervene

45:53

is usually in corny ways.

45:58

<laugh> In ways that are like, now I'm trying to get at your girl or

45:59

ways that now I'm gonna rely on the state.

46:02

I'm gonna call the police. You know, I'm

46:02

hella light skinned. They dark skinned.

46:05

He looking at me like this uppity light

46:05

skinned <expletive> about to come over

46:07

here, probably call the police on me. You know? Like he doesn't know that I'm coming

46:09

here with all this abolitionist,

46:12

transformative shit we

46:12

talking about on this podcast.

46:16

But his grandmother there there's a

46:16

rapport there. There's a love there.

46:19

There's a vulnerability there that she

46:19

could have moved in that space very

46:22

differently. And I, that's why I

46:22

love the, the pod-mapping type of,

46:27

of transformative justice

46:27

community-building that

46:30

Because in those moments, you

46:30

don't need to call the police.

46:33

You could have called, called this dude's grandma. But we don't know his grandma.

46:35

We're not connected to his grandma.

46:37

We don't have infrastructure to call his grandma. The infrastructure we have is to call

46:39

people who are gonna show up with guns.

46:42

That's. Right. And that's what I mean when I, I say,

46:45

I feel like we need to just

46:45

be more deliberate with

46:48

We could systemize these

46:48

things. We systemized slavery.

46:52

We systemized McDonald's ability to

46:52

put out a billion burgers a year.

46:57

Like we could systemize anything as

46:57

human beings. We could, we could,

47:00

there's a universe in which I have an

47:00

app on my phone where I could take a

47:04

picture of you and know who your grandma

47:04

is for the sake of calling her when we

47:09

need her. Yes. You know? Yes.

47:09

That's a potential reality.

47:12

Like it's just about moving with that

47:12

level of deliberation and understanding

47:16

like human beings are finite. But it's okay that we're finite when we

47:18

all have all of us as a resource. Like,

47:22

like that day, I intervened in

47:22

that conflict a few hours later,

47:26

my neighbor's behind my building,

47:26

I ain't trying to re-trigger you.

47:30

I know you grew up out here, so that's

47:30

why you got the hell outta here.

47:32

But my neighbors behind my building

47:32

are fighting and I know them, you know,

47:37

I know my neighbors, and that's what

47:37

I mean when I say the deliberateness.

47:40

So when I showed up to my

47:40

neighbors behind my building,

47:42

one of 'em was locked up with

47:42

my best friends. The other one,

47:45

I know his mama and all

47:45

that. So when I showed up,

47:48

I was able to help stop that fight. One of their wives pulled up and was

47:50

really able to, by the time she pulled up,

47:53

it was over. It was

47:53

over already. You know,

47:57

that that's because of the relationships

47:57

that we built because of the

47:59

deliberateness that we built. I'm

47:59

not afraid to say hi to my neighbors.

48:02

I'm gonna come. I'm gonna holler at you.

48:02

I'm gonna say, how's your day going?

48:04

I'm gonna pet your dog, you know? Yes.

48:04

And to the point of finiteness yesterday,

48:09

I seen this dude, who was not Black, I was in Hollywood on my way to do a

48:12

work thing. Dude, who's not Black, um,

48:16

looks like a drug dealer,

48:16

I grew up selling drugs,

48:18

I know what drug dealers look like,

48:18

beating a dude who was also not Black,

48:22

who looked like a drug

48:22

addict, I was a drug addict,

48:24

I know what drug addicts looked like, beating him with his belt as

48:25

if he was his father. Prentis.

48:29

The way I did not get out the car <laugh>

48:29

And that's not. And I considered it.

48:34

I thought through it. And that's not to

48:34

say I wouldn't help nobody if they like,

48:36

if they weren't Black. I'm just

48:36

saying that in that moment,

48:40

Blackness is just one of the things that

48:40

I think connects me to people and makes

48:43

me feel like your fight is my

48:43

fight. Um, your piece is my piece,

48:46

I think is actually a better way to put

48:46

it. That's not the only one, you know,

48:50

being in my immediate neighborhood is

48:50

one. Being my family member is one.

48:53

There's some people who I feel like

48:53

it's just automatic. If you're a child,

48:56

if you're an elder, you

48:56

know. But like two grown,

49:00

probably high men fighting in

49:00

a gas station in Hollywood,

49:05

I'm gonna save my energy because you know what, my neighbor's gonna be fighting again

49:07

tomorrow. <laugh> And that's who needs me.

49:10

Or my boy's about to call me from jail

49:10

because some cop just treated him like

49:14

shit and that's who needs me. And I need to understand that

49:16

every fight is not my fight,

49:19

but in a world where we have

49:19

deliberate relationship infrastructure,

49:25

I'd be able to connect those

49:25

people with someone else.

49:27

Exactly. I love that. I love that so much.

49:30

Cause I feel like that

49:30

speaks to that tension.

49:33

Not everything is for each one of

49:33

us individually to intervene on.

49:36

But when we are embedded in a network

49:36

and we are part of a community,

49:42

then it's not up to me to intervene

49:42

in every single thing. It's not up to,

49:47

I can call Richie and say, "Hey,

49:47

Richie, I need you here." Or I can call,

49:51

you know, Richie's grandma

49:51

and say, "Richie's grandma,

49:53

we need you." You can call mine. So yeah,

49:56

I feel like that's that web that

49:56

you're showing us, that web,

50:01

that of connection and

50:01

relationship, a thoughtful,

50:04

intentional choiceful relationship.

50:07

Yo. Exactly. Honestly, instead of 911 we should have like 711,

50:13

and it just calls yo grandma. <laugh> Just an automatic link

50:16

to everybody's grandmother

50:20

really underestimate the

50:20

power of grandmothers.

50:22

I don't know if there's more powerful group, that's real, of people in our community.

50:26

That's real. That's real. Yeah. There

50:26

was a, there wasn't there, um, a project,

50:30

I think somewhere on the continent where

50:30

grandmothers were doing counseling,

50:34

there was like a bench where

50:34

grandmothers were sitting. Hmm.

50:37

And when you needed somebody to talk to,

50:39

there was a grandmother sitting there

50:39

waiting for you. And I'm like, that.

50:44

Yo. How do we do more of that? That part? Look, I was robbing those

50:46

stores and the last and the last robbery,

50:51

it was three robberies. And

50:51

the last robbery LAPD came.

50:54

They hit me with the barrel of the

50:54

shotgun, pressed it to my head.

50:57

I should kill your Black ass. Beat me

50:57

into the point where I was throwing up,

51:00

concussion. All that. The

51:00

whole point of that, in theory,

51:05

if you're to ask LAPD was to get

51:05

me to stop committing robberies.

51:10

Mm mm. On the flip side, had

51:11

I been in that store,

51:14

and my grandmother walked in and her

51:14

a at that time, I think she was 84,

51:19

you know, this 84 year old Jewish

51:19

woman walked in and said, "Richard,

51:23

what are you doing?" Guess

51:23

what? Robbery's over.

51:28

<Laugh> <laugh> Yeah. Yeah.

51:33

I mean, absolutely. When I would think about explaining

51:34

transformative justice to my family,

51:40

I remember I wanted to talk to my mom

51:40

about it and you know, I'm thinking like,

51:45

what language do I use? And then

51:45

I thought, this is what we do.

51:50

Mm-hmm. <Affirmative> This is what we already do. <Laugh> This is what we,

51:53

this is what she would do for me or

51:53

part of what she would do for me.

51:59

It's what I've seen family members

51:59

do for other family members.

52:01

It's what we already do. But

52:01

it's, it's, it's legitimizing it.

52:05

It's systematizing it. It's spreading it.

52:10

Literally, when people ask me like what, what does transformative

52:12

justice look like? I tell them what you

52:13

already do in your family.

52:16

When your family member hurts

52:16

you and you want them to stop,

52:19

but you love them anyway. Yep. That's it. That's

52:20

it. That's it. Richie,

52:25

thank you so much for

52:25

talking with us today.

52:27

I feel like I could honestly talk to

52:27

you for another hour and still have

52:30

questions, but, um, same. Yeah.

52:30

I'm just so grateful for you.

52:34

I'm so grateful for the questions

52:34

that you've taken up, your practice.

52:38

I'm grateful for your vulnerability

52:38

and your honesty and just

52:43

being real about being in the

52:43

middle of your own transformation.

52:47

So just so grateful that you

52:47

spoke with us today. Thank.

52:50

You, yo. Thank you so,

52:50

so much for having me.

52:53

Thank you for who you're

52:53

choosing to be in the world.

52:56

You two are such a teacher of mine.

52:59

If I may shamelessly plug because we

52:59

not, we not getting high off shame.

53:04

Um, do it. I now have a podcast

53:04

called Abolition X on Spotify,

53:09

where we talk about how abolition

53:09

intersects with every aspect of society,

53:14

whether it be music to mental

53:14

health. I don't know. I,

53:17

I feel like for folks who are listening

53:17

today, if you found this helpful,

53:20

there's more, there's more there

53:20

that you might wanna check out.

53:24

That's super exciting. I can't wait

53:24

to hear that. Thank you, Richie.

53:28

Thank you. We, we gonna have

53:28

you on, on Abolition X too.

53:31

So I'll be talking to you

53:31

publicly again very soon.

53:33

<Laugh> Sounds good. Let's do it. Let's

53:33

make it happen. All right, family.

53:37

right. Finding Our Way is produced

53:41

and edited by Eddie Hemphill,

53:45

co-production and visual

53:45

design by devon de Leña,

53:49

and assistant editing by Miranda Luiz.

53:49

Please make sure to rate, subscribe,

53:53

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53:53

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53:57

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54:13

Thank you so much for

54:13

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