0:00

Jamil Zaynchev joins me for another brewing

0:02

question and answer session. This is Beersmith

0:04

podcast number 281.

0:16

This is the Beersmith home brewing

0:18

show, where brewing great beer

0:20

is our passion. If you want to take your

0:22

brewing to the next level, visit Beersmith.com,

0:25

where you can download a trial version of our Beersmith

0:28

software. Subscribe to the newsletter

0:30

and get dozens of free articles on home

0:32

brewing. And now your host and

0:34

the author of Home Brewing with Beersmith, Brad

0:37

Smith.

0:39

This is Beersmith podcast number 281 and it's late

0:41

May, 2023.

0:43

Jamil Zaynchev joins me this week for a question

0:46

and answer session. Thank you to

0:48

this week's sponsors, Craft Beer and Brewing magazine.

0:50

Every issue of Craft Beer and Brewing magazine

0:52

is packed with articles for home brewers and beer lovers.

0:55

They offer access to videos, brewing

0:57

courses, exclusive articles, and the amazing

0:59

Craft Beer and Brewing magazine.

1:01

Go to BeerandBrewing.com to get your subscription

1:04

today. And also

1:06

Beersmith Web, the online version of Beersmith

1:09

brewing software. Beersmith for the

1:11

web lets you design great beer recipes from

1:13

any browser, including your tablet or phone.

1:16

Edit recipes on the go with access to tens

1:18

of thousands of recipes,

1:19

as well as a full suite of recipe building tools

1:22

that our desktop version has.

1:24

Try Beersmith Web today by creating a

1:26

free account at BeersmithRecipes.com.

1:30

And finally, a reminder to smash the like and

1:32

subscribe button on YouTube, iTunes,

1:35

Spotify, or whatever platform you're listening

1:37

on,

1:38

as it really helps us in many ways.

1:41

And now let's jump into this week's

1:43

episode.

1:46

Today on the show, I welcome back Jamil Zaynchev.

1:48

Jamil is an award winning professional brewer and

1:51

home brewer.

1:52

He's authored the books Brewing Classic Styles,

1:54

The Practical Guide to Brewer Fermentation,

1:57

and he's also co-host of the Brew Strong podcast

1:59

on the. Brewing Network. Uh, Jamil, it's

2:01

great to have you back on the show. How are you doing today? I'm

2:04

doing great. Thanks for having me, Brad.

2:06

It's a pleasure. Absolutely. We always

2:09

enjoy having you here. It's been almost a year since

2:11

we last chatted. If you can believe that.

2:13

I, when you said that I, I

2:15

couldn't believe how time fly.

2:19

Well, I mean, are you enjoying a semi retirement

2:21

now?

2:23

Yeah, I'm semi enjoying

2:25

semi retirement. Yeah. You

2:28

mentioned you still have several projects going on,

2:30

I think a couple books or something.

2:32

Yeah. There's lots of books to

2:35

write still. I've, I've been a home

2:37

brewing a little bit during some, uh, uh,

2:39

classic British Ales, uh,

2:43

for to serve in my friend's, uh, garage

2:45

pub and, uh, yeah,

2:48

uh, fixing things around the house, which I really enjoy.

2:50

I like to see, you know, the

2:52

results of work and, uh, home

2:55

repairs. You usually go pretty quick. So

2:58

that's been a joy. Really? Mine always take

3:00

three or four trips to home Depot. I don't know about you,

3:02

but yeah. Yeah.

3:05

That happens too.

3:08

Well, uh, before we get started, I want to ask you, so

3:10

if you're home brewing again, what are you brewing on? What kind of system

3:12

do you have? Uh,

3:14

my good, good friend, Chris Graham from

3:16

more beer. He gave me a, uh, brew

3:19

Zilla, uh, all in one

3:21

system.

3:22

Yeah. And, uh, I'm surprised

3:24

at how easy and convenient

3:27

it is and how it stores in a small location.

3:31

Uh, it doesn't take up a lot of room and, uh, super

3:34

easy to use. Uh, so I

3:36

really like it. And like I said, I've been brewing

3:38

mainly British sales, so nothing really high gravity.

3:41

Um,

3:41

and the quality has been

3:44

fantastic. So I'm real happy with it.

3:46

Really, you know, he, he

3:49

was like, if you're gonna home brew here, I'll give

3:51

you, give you one. I

3:53

tell you, I have a 10 gallon system, but I've been tempted

3:55

to get one of those small all in one systems

3:58

just to be able to brew smaller batches. You know?

4:00

And like I said, just

4:02

super convenient. It's one vessel and

4:04

you do everything in the one vessel.

4:07

So, and it's got a pump.

4:10

It's got, you know, heater control. It's

4:12

got, you know, you can recirculate, you

4:15

can throw a chiller in there.

4:18

Super easy. I really like it.

4:20

Nice. Well, today

4:22

I wanted to do another Q and A session.

4:25

So I thought I might start by asking you

4:27

a bit about how home brewing a hobby as

4:29

a hobby

4:30

has evolved over your long career. And you've

4:32

been brewing quite a long time, if I recall.

4:35

Yeah, you know, the thing with

4:38

home brewing is

4:41

it's become a lot

4:43

more technical over time, which

4:46

I guess is to be expected. And, you

4:49

know, the ingredients we have

4:51

today, I remember when I started,

4:53

you know, it was, the

4:56

only information was books,

4:58

magazines, and then

5:00

there was a, you know,

5:02

bulletin board that you could, you know, dial

5:05

up on your modem and get into

5:07

the bulletin board and chat with people. And

5:10

I remember a lot of the advice back then

5:13

was,

5:14

you know, just really weird,

5:16

weird old school advice. And,

5:19

you know, now

5:21

today it is, people

5:23

are using, you know, just

5:27

they have access to

5:28

bio-engineered yeasts. They have,

5:32

you know, new,

5:33

new hop products that

5:37

were designed for the pros, but, you know,

5:39

are also available in your home brew shop.

5:42

They have, you know, all sorts of ingredients

5:44

that we never had before. Yeah,

5:47

that's kind of why I want to do an update

5:50

to brewing classic styles is because all

5:52

the ingredients have really changed. And,

5:55

you know, home brewers have

5:57

gotten so technical now that...

5:59

You know, a lot of them are more technical than

6:02

the

6:03

commercial craft brewers.

6:05

Commercial

6:05

craft brewers, they don't have time to study

6:07

every last little, um, you

6:10

know, uh, invention. Whereas people

6:12

that home brew are really doing a lot

6:14

of that.

6:16

Yeah. I've been surprised a lot of home brewers, uh, you

6:18

know, for example, spend more time on their water than the pros

6:20

do. Oh, absolutely.

6:23

Water hops, you know, it's mass

6:25

schedules. They want to control everything to, you know, the

6:28

nth degree.

6:29

Um, it's, it's surprising,

6:31

uh, how

6:33

detailed and technical, uh, home

6:36

brewing has become.

6:38

One of the things I noted, um, back

6:40

when you and I started, uh, it

6:42

was the early internet and one of the challenges

6:45

is, uh, the people that dominated the conversation

6:47

at that time, when we were developing

6:49

really a lot of the home brewing and even pro

6:51

brewing technology, uh,

6:53

we're scientists and engineers. So they kind of

6:55

dominated the whole discussion back then.

6:57

Yeah. They

7:00

still are today. Yeah. So that's,

7:03

so that's one of my things though. I don't know if you ever see

7:05

my designing beer presentation, but I often you

7:07

do a slide at the front where I talk about, you know, some

7:09

of the, uh,

7:10

because of beer brewing has become

7:12

so technical unit, the home brew level. Um,

7:15

it's sort of hidden some of the artistic elements,

7:17

you know?

7:18

Absolutely. I don't

7:20

know if you feel the same way, but, uh, yeah,

7:24

I think, you know, there, there's a need for the

7:26

technical. Um,

7:28

but you know, a lot of the fun, and

7:30

that is a lot of fun for a lot of

7:32

people that, you know, uh, be included,

7:35

but, uh, you know, sometimes it's

7:37

nice to see some, you

7:39

know, some artistry or some just, you

7:41

know, crazy thinking

7:43

type of.

7:46

I like, uh, I like some of the beers that

7:48

are built around a particular flavor, flavor,

7:50

you know, maybe an unusual flavor, you know,

7:52

or ingredient or something.

7:54

Um, anyway, so I thought I'd start today

7:56

with a few of the trends and craft brewing. and

8:00

one of the ones we're seeing at least in the last

8:02

couple years is a move towards Continental

8:04

style loggers

8:06

and sort of a resurgence of

8:08

things like Czech style Pilsners.

8:10

What

8:12

advice do you have for those looking to make maybe

8:14

the perfect Pilsner or

8:16

Continental logger at home?

8:18

Well,

8:20

I just

8:23

recently was

8:24

down at Disneyland for

8:27

May the 4th and stopped

8:30

in to see my good friend Rick

8:33

at stereo brewing.

8:35

The real close there, if you're ever down in the

8:37

Disneyland area you need to get a

8:39

stereo brewing and check them out. He's

8:42

a great brewer and every beer

8:46

on there was perfect,

8:48

just super well done. But

8:50

the one that

8:52

blew my mind was his Czech

8:54

style Pilsner

8:56

and it

8:59

tasted like

9:04

the best Czech Pilsners

9:07

of the world and it

9:10

was better than any Czech Pilsner

9:12

I've ever had other than

9:14

the classic historical breweries.

9:21

It was absolutely fantastic

9:24

and the way that he

9:26

made it was one, the

9:28

quality of ingredients. So he was using

9:30

a Vyramin floor

9:33

malted Bohemian Pilsner

9:35

malt

9:37

and the flavor of that malt was

9:39

fantastic.

9:40

When you're making these styles of beer,

9:43

the ingredients really shine

9:45

through and so you need to be choosing

9:48

the high quality ingredients.

9:50

Vyramin did just a brilliant

9:53

job on that malt.

9:54

It really tastes fantastic.

9:57

His

10:01

recipe is the hemean, you

10:03

know, the form vaulted, the

10:06

hemean pilsner malt from firemen, and

10:08

then some czech sauce hops,

10:10

and yeast water,

10:12

right? So very, very traditional recipe,

10:15

right? Yes, quality hops,

10:17

you know, great fermentation, and

10:20

you know, that's the trick. Yeah, I

10:23

was gonna say where the magic's done is really in the process,

10:25

trying to get all those flaws out, if you

10:27

will, because anything in

10:29

a pilsner's gonna show up, you

10:31

know, is a big problem. Especially

10:33

on a beer like that, and he just,

10:35

he did a masterful job of it. Again,

10:38

he's just a fantastic brewer, and

10:41

really knows the stuff, and just, I

10:43

wish that beer was available

10:46

all

10:50

across the US, or all across the world,

10:52

if you could easily get it.

10:55

It's that good,

10:57

really that good. That's

10:59

awesome. So I mean, are

11:01

there any things we can do, you know, at the homebrew

11:03

level to get something close to that, maybe?

11:06

Yeah, you know, source,

11:09

high quality ingredients. So

11:11

the proper malt, proper

11:15

hops,

11:16

use, you know, proper yeast,

11:19

I would suggest

11:23

using something, you know, that

11:26

is a check,

11:28

check log or yeast from any

11:30

of the major yeast producers,

11:33

and

11:34

watch your fermentation, start

11:37

your fermentation low,

11:39

and raise it up as you go. You will need temperature

11:41

control fermentation. Don't try

11:43

and do this with Kavike yeast.

11:46

It's just, you're just

11:48

gonna ruin the good ingredients

11:51

with

11:52

something that is not gonna be a lager.

11:54

You know, don't try

11:57

fermenting it. hot

12:00

with lager yeast and then cooling

12:02

it down, that doesn't really work either.

12:06

Just go with traditional methods.

12:09

If you're trying to make a

12:11

world classic, it

12:13

developed how it did

12:15

for a certain way and you're

12:17

going to want to stick with those techniques.

12:23

Well, another trend is towards low

12:26

alcohol and no alcohol beers in the

12:28

craft beer industry. In particular,

12:30

we're seeing some innovative work done with new yeasts

12:32

and techniques

12:34

that really avoid the traditional process where

12:37

you might brew a beer and then try and boil

12:39

the alcohol out of it, if you will.

12:40

So

12:43

what are your thoughts on some of the non-alcoholic

12:45

beer coming out and also how

12:47

it's made? Yeah, when I was at Heretic,

12:50

we looked at all the methods of

12:53

making non-alcoholic

12:56

or zero alcohol

12:58

or below 25 and

13:01

then low alcohol

13:03

beers. And it's

13:07

interesting because every

13:10

supplier looks at the problem

13:13

from their point of view, right?

13:17

So equipment manufacturers,

13:19

people make stills, they were making

13:23

vacuum stills to

13:25

vacuum off

13:28

the alcohol without heating

13:30

the beer up too much. Then

13:33

there were people who used essentially

13:35

reverse osmosis, a special membrane

13:37

filtration to filter the

13:40

alcohol out.

13:41

I thought that that was actually the best method.

13:43

You

13:44

end up with

13:46

beer without alcohol and then you end up with just

13:48

plain alcohol that you can use for other

13:50

stuff like seltzers.

13:53

You can actually bind

13:55

those membranes yourself.

13:58

I looked into that. They're not cheap.

13:59

But you put high enough pressure,

14:02

you could probably make it work

14:04

as a home burner. I'm sure there's enterprising home brewers who

14:07

want to do that.

14:08

And then the

14:11

malt suppliers, for example,

14:14

Muttons,

14:16

they sent me some tests

14:19

of

14:20

malt extract

14:22

that you essentially

14:24

mixed in with water and

14:26

it was a non-alcoholic beer already and

14:28

you hopped it. Or

14:30

you added a little

14:32

bit of what we would do was take

14:35

one of our higher alcohol beers because there's

14:38

more esters to it. And

14:40

we would take a double

14:42

IPA

14:43

and mix just enough

14:45

of that with the malt

14:48

extract

14:49

to bring it up to 0.5

14:51

ABV.

14:52

So

14:54

it was still considered non-alcoholic,

14:57

but you got some of the flavors of fermentation.

15:01

And that actually worked quite well

15:03

also. So that's

15:06

another method of making it, again,

15:08

based on the malt supplier end

15:11

of things. And now you also

15:13

see the yeast suppliers getting in on the game.

15:17

Malamond has a really good low

15:20

alcohol yeast

15:23

and it doesn't ferment maltose, maltotriose,

15:26

or any of the longer

15:28

chain sugars. It just ferments, I

15:31

think, glucose, maybe fructose. I don't

15:33

know. I would imagine it would do fructose too.

15:37

And so since that's a very low portion

15:40

of the

15:42

sugars in a mash,

15:45

you get really

15:47

high

15:49

mash temperature, you

15:51

get more complex sugars

15:53

and less simple sugars, and

15:56

then you ferment it with this and it's less

15:58

than 15%.

15:59

of the sugars in a typical

16:02

mash is fermentable

16:04

with this yeast. So you get a fairly

16:07

low alcohol beer and

16:10

you can get it below the 0.5 if you

16:12

are careful

16:15

about how high

16:18

you're going. You can also water

16:20

it back. So you can take,

16:24

you could brew an intensely flavorful

16:26

beer at

16:27

a higher alcohol.

16:29

You can use carbonated water to do this

16:31

with a robust porter and

16:35

just add water to it. I'd

16:37

pour myself a half or

16:39

three quarter glass of water and then top

16:41

it up with a robust porter

16:44

and you can use carbonated water

16:46

to do that. That

16:49

tastes good too. So a lot of different

16:51

methods for doing it. I would

16:53

say the best for a home brewer currently

16:56

is, the

16:58

quickest and simplest, just add some, keep

17:01

some ice cold

17:02

carbonated water on hand and

17:04

mix that with beer and I guess you lower

17:07

alcohol beer. The second

17:09

would be brew something

17:11

using the Lalamond low

17:14

alcohol yeast at LA1,

17:16

I think it's called LA for low alcohol.

17:20

I personally tried a couple

17:22

of the European yeast suppliers,

17:25

low alcohol beer. It was actually quite good. It wasn't bad

17:27

at all.

17:28

It was made using the low alcohol yeast you

17:30

mentioned.

17:31

Because it's fermented. One

17:33

of the things,

17:35

you can't just take a plain

17:37

malt extract and not have some fermentation

17:40

character in there.

17:41

It just seems kind of

17:43

flat and weird.

17:46

So

17:49

again, if you're using the malt extract, add

17:52

some beer to it and

17:55

it actually tastes pretty good. I

17:57

kind of enjoyed the results of the month's

17:59

test.

18:00

I thought that they were onto something there.

18:03

And then if you've got a lot of money

18:05

and space for it, you

18:07

could go with the

18:09

vacuum distillation or the membrane,

18:12

the osmosis

18:14

technique. Yeah, yeah. Well,

18:18

let's switch to one more. One of the most popular

18:21

styles, of course, is the hazy IPA. How

18:24

do you get the haze into the hazy IPA?

18:26

It's a classic. You know, that's

18:29

interesting. I worked on it for

18:31

about two years

18:33

to get

18:37

a truly permanent haze in

18:39

one of our beers. When

18:42

we started out, we just started following everybody

18:44

else and used everybody else's advice

18:47

on

18:48

what we heard from

18:51

various people on the internet, how to make

18:53

a hazy. And what we had was

18:55

a nice beer that was hazy,

18:58

but a lot of it would drop

19:00

out. And eventually, if you left

19:02

it long enough,

19:04

we would do haze tests

19:06

in the cold box. We'd have the cones

19:09

and checking for how different

19:11

tests

19:13

were coming clear.

19:15

But over the course of several months,

19:18

that beer would be almost perfectly

19:20

clear. Yeah.

19:21

And a bunch of sludge

19:24

in the bottom of the can. So that was unacceptable.

19:26

And so I started working on really

19:29

understanding where the haze

19:31

comes from, what makes it permanent.

19:33

So it's a combination of things. And

19:36

it's surprisingly the

19:38

common

19:40

problem, because one thing about

19:43

the hazy beers, if there's

19:45

a bunch of sludge in there, and

19:48

you can taste particles and there's,

19:51

you know, hot burn from ingesting

19:54

actual hot material,

19:56

you don't have a good beer. If you're drinking,

19:58

you know, glass.

19:59

of yeast that hasn't settled out,

20:02

you're not drinking a good beer. That's

20:03

a real, that's

20:07

garbage. That's why people hated hazy

20:10

IPAs. And some people still hate hazy

20:13

IPA because of there's

20:15

so many bad examples.

20:17

But what you want

20:19

is a permanent haze. You want

20:21

the yeast to have settled out. You

20:24

want, you know, all a hot material

20:26

to drop out as well. At

20:28

Heretic, we actually centrifuged

20:32

the beers, our hazy beers.

20:34

And they're quite hazy

20:37

even after that. But we would get

20:39

all the yeast out and all that other material

20:41

that you don't want to drink.

20:44

So what's the secret then? How are

20:46

you getting the haze in there? Right. So

20:50

the one thing is that we found out is most

20:52

people are

20:53

over doing it with wheat

20:56

and oats.

20:58

So and

21:01

you know, we were doing the same thing. It's like, well,

21:04

all right, it needs to be more, you know, add

21:06

more, add more of the haze causing things

21:08

because then

21:10

you'll get more haze, right?

21:12

Isn't that what everybody thinks? The

21:14

problem is wheat and oats, the

21:17

the the the glucanin

21:19

will

21:20

act as a

21:22

clarifier and will cause

21:25

the the haze to drop out

21:28

of the beer.

21:29

So you want to keep

21:32

yourself to about 20 percent

21:35

total. So that's

21:38

still, I mean, it's still a good percentage. It's still

21:40

a good percentage. But if you exceed that, you

21:43

are going to start having the glucanin

21:45

drop your

21:48

your

21:50

haze out. The

21:52

other thing I did was I switched.

21:55

So

21:56

they actually make some wheat

21:59

malts.

21:59

that are much higher in protein

22:02

and certain proteins contribute

22:04

to the permanent haze. What

22:06

is it, Hordine or something like that.

22:08

And

22:11

there's certain growers that

22:13

make real

22:17

high protein wheat. And the

22:19

idea is the higher the protein,

22:22

the

22:25

better the ratio between protein and

22:27

the glucons. So

22:30

let's say you have

22:32

X amount of glucon

22:34

and X amount of protein. Well, if you can

22:36

get the protein higher, then it's like

22:38

you're adding less glucon

22:40

and you can get

22:43

more of the haze forming proteins

22:47

without clarifying the beer. So that

22:49

is a grower

22:52

out or a grower. There's a grower

22:55

up in Oregon or Washington that

22:57

makes a malt that a lot of people

23:00

use. I think it's something

23:02

crazy like, well, it's like 15 or 16%. But

23:06

what I found instead,

23:10

much more readily available

23:12

and really close to

23:14

the same specs was spelt.

23:17

So spelt is essentially wheat.

23:20

So we started using spelt

23:24

in our beer. We

23:26

replaced

23:29

about half the wheat with spelt.

23:31

And that

23:34

made a big difference. And we lowered the

23:36

total amount of wheat and oats.

23:38

We used flaked oats and

23:41

spelt

23:41

and regular malted

23:44

wheat.

23:46

And then the

23:48

other thing was

23:50

yeast selection. The

23:53

yeast that I

23:55

really

23:56

loved for hazies is the

23:58

Imperial juice.

23:59

yeast. I think that that's a

24:02

great yeast. The thing

24:04

is to get it to ferment to,

24:07

because we made a lot of higher

24:09

ABB beers, we made

24:13

a fourth of Juicy, which I think

24:15

was 14% Juicy or

24:18

Hazy. And the

24:20

problem with a lot of

24:22

the Hazy Yeasts is that

24:25

they're based off of,

24:27

I think British strains, which are

24:30

typically lower attenuators.

24:34

And they tend

24:36

not to brew really high alcohol

24:39

beers in Britain. So... Right.

24:41

So the yeast is going to max out, right?

24:43

Yeah. What you need to do is

24:46

give it a lot of oxygen. So you give

24:48

it a lot of oxygen at the beginning. Then

24:51

people are trying to get 20 parts

24:54

per million in

24:56

dissolved oxygen in

24:59

their work to start.

25:01

I think you can give

25:03

it a dose at the beginning. You give it a dose

25:05

later on if

25:06

you want to

25:08

really

25:09

eight to 12 hours

25:12

later. Yeah. I've seen people use that with

25:14

meads and wines too. You hit it 12 hours

25:17

later with another dose. Yeah. Exactly.

25:21

And that yeast particularly needs a lot of oxygen.

25:23

And a lot of the British yeast, it goes back

25:25

to how they used to do

25:27

the double drop where they would

25:30

drop the beer through a centered pipe

25:33

to

25:34

entrain a lot more air into

25:37

the beer as

25:38

it dropped into the next fermenter,

25:41

which was Yorkshire Square

25:43

or something like that.

25:45

And the yeast really

25:47

need a lot of oxygen.

25:49

It also

25:52

helps with some of the ester

25:54

production later on.

25:56

And then are you doing things on the hop

25:58

side as well? Because obviously...

25:59

hops player as well in getting the haze.

26:02

So, yeah,

26:05

on hops, there's no boil additions.

26:07

You don't need them.

26:09

Your bittering is going

26:11

to come from actually from your dry hopping

26:13

mainly. But we would do a

26:15

whirlpool addition. We'd lower the temperature

26:17

of the whirlpool down to about

26:20

175 Fahrenheit. And then add

26:23

the hop addition there.

26:25

That addition is where you're going to add all

26:27

your linalool

26:30

and geraniol high

26:33

hops. Right. That's you want to add.

26:35

You try and get the bio transformations during

26:37

fermentation, right? Uh-huh. So you

26:39

need yeast that will do

26:41

bio transformation. You add

26:43

the little

26:45

little geraniol

26:48

concentrated hops. In your whirlpool,

26:51

extract that out. You leave the hop

26:53

batter behind. Because you don't want that

26:55

in your beer. You don't want to throw hops

26:58

in

26:59

during fermentation. We did

27:01

blind taste tests with

27:05

a lot of people. And

27:07

everyone always preferred the non-fermentation

27:10

hopped beer.

27:13

They all preferred the beer that

27:15

was dry hopped after fermentation.

27:20

Dry hopping during fermentation, it

27:22

adds an

27:26

unpleasant bitterness to the beer. Unpleasant

27:28

character from leaving the hop batter

27:30

in and stirring the hop batter around

27:33

for so long

27:34

that it becomes unpleasant.

27:37

So we stopped doing that.

27:39

And

27:41

returned to dry hopping after fermentation, which

27:44

also helps with harvesting your yeast. The

27:46

other thing we would do is we only

27:48

we would

27:50

throw all the dry hops in

27:53

and then pump the

27:55

beer around for about three hours. This was on

27:57

a 147. barrel,

28:01

US barrel fermenter, 120

28:03

barrel net.

28:04

You could pump the beer around for about

28:06

three hours, and that was

28:09

dry hopping. And once that's

28:11

done, we let it settle

28:13

and take the beer and move

28:15

it over centrifuge and it

28:18

was good to go. So don't dry

28:20

hop for long periods of time. That's

28:22

not good for your

28:24

hazies. You want kind

28:27

of a fruity soft character

28:29

to the hazies.

28:34

And then the other thing was

28:36

water. So water,

28:39

your sulfate to chloride

28:42

ratio,

28:43

you want a lot of chloride. I ended

28:45

up

28:47

adding kosher

28:50

salt to the

28:52

beer. So we'd go through quite a bit of salt.

28:55

It adds to the softness and

28:57

makes your water ratios closer

29:00

to what you're looking for. So I mean, that reduces

29:03

your sulfate to chloride ratio, making it a

29:05

little more mild, right?

29:07

Yeah, more chloride. Normally

29:11

with an IPA, you'd be going the other way probably, right?

29:13

Exactly. Yeah.

29:15

And with all those changes, you should get something

29:18

that remains hazy permanently.

29:20

So we, like I said, we

29:22

could centrifuge. And normally

29:25

you can centrifuge a beer quite

29:27

clear, but we could centrifuge

29:29

this thing to

29:31

where it's still quite hazy. You

29:34

removed all the yeast, you removed

29:37

all the hot matter. So it drinks

29:39

smooth and deliciously, and

29:43

it would stay hazy

29:44

permanently. I mean, after

29:47

a few years, I'm sure, you know,

29:49

a bit of dropout, but

29:51

you could go six months

29:53

a year and pour that beer and it would still

29:56

be hazy. Amazing. Cool. Thank

30:00

you. That was, I learned some new things there. I appreciate

30:02

it. Um, anyways,

30:04

uh, next question, you, you wrote the book brewing

30:06

classic styles and you brewed all the styles.

30:09

Basically. Uh, the question

30:11

was, uh, which styles were most challenging

30:13

to make at home?

30:15

Well at home, I think

30:18

the most challenging ones are the ones

30:20

that required a long term,

30:23

uh, storage, uh, for,

30:26

for, uh,

30:27

you know, development of flavor.

30:29

Yeah. Mainly the, uh,

30:32

you know, the barrel age sours. Um,

30:35

so the, the thing about those is time and

30:38

temperature, uh,

30:40

you know, the conditions, uh, you know, the amount

30:42

of oxygen that's getting permeating

30:45

through the wood or whatever vessel you're

30:47

using

30:49

make a difference in the final, uh, flavor

30:52

of the beer. So,

30:53

uh, it's

30:56

pretty critical. And if you're storing something

30:58

like this for, you know, three

31:00

or four years, you're,

31:04

you know, finding out whether it worked

31:06

out or not is can be, can be tricky.

31:09

Um, when I was at heretic, um,

31:12

you know, we had a barrel program there at one point,

31:14

I think we had about 500, uh, wine

31:16

barrels filled with, uh, various

31:19

sours

31:20

and, uh, you know, a sour base that

31:22

we worked with.

31:24

And you'd

31:26

be shocked, uh, you know,

31:29

same Baker of barrel from

31:31

the same winery, you

31:35

know, in Iraq, you know, next

31:37

to each other and, you

31:40

know, filled at the same time from the same,

31:42

from the same beer that we had brewed.

31:45

And one tastes

31:48

absolutely fantastic

31:51

and one tastes like garbage. Yeah.

31:53

And you know, the only way

31:56

we could put out really great product

31:58

was

31:59

we actually had a person

32:02

that

32:03

his job was to taste all the barrels

32:06

and make notes.

32:08

And he would come in and taste through as many

32:10

as he could, maybe, you know, the next day,

32:12

same thing. And

32:16

the thing was, you

32:19

know, because we had so many barrels,

32:21

we were able to just

32:24

drop, you know, if something

32:26

didn't taste good, we just dumped it. Well,

32:30

the other thing I've talked with Michael Tonsmeyer

32:32

about this quite a bit, but most of the programs

32:35

that people, you know, people that have a large

32:37

barrel-aged program

32:38

do a lot of blending. Yes. Well,

32:42

the thing about blending is, if something

32:45

doesn't taste good, blending

32:48

it in with beer that does taste good

32:50

just makes the stuff that

32:52

tastes good not taste good. Right.

32:55

It reduces the quality of, you know,

32:57

you have a barrel that's absolutely fantastic.

33:01

And, you know, you love it.

33:03

Well, why would you blend in

33:05

something that doesn't taste

33:07

nearly as good

33:09

just to avoid throwing

33:11

it away?

33:14

My method was always,

33:15

if it doesn't taste good, just throw it away.

33:17

And if you

33:20

stick with that,

33:22

then the blend that you're going to make is

33:24

always going to taste fantastic. If you're only

33:27

blending fantastic tasting

33:29

beers, you're only going to get fantastic tasting

33:31

out of it at the end.

33:32

So we would just throw it

33:34

away. There's no, you know,

33:38

you know, you can't

33:40

save, you know, garbage and

33:42

fix it in, garbage in, garbage out. So

33:45

we were very, very

33:48

strict on that. And that's why I had

33:50

so many barrels because I knew that, you

33:52

know, a percentage of them would work. And if

33:54

a barrel didn't work,

33:56

generally it meant that

33:58

it was, you know, know, if they

34:00

were the

34:03

barrels on the ends of the racks versus the barrels

34:06

in the middle of the stacks have different environmental

34:08

conditions and that makes a difference. But

34:12

you know, generally you get a couple barrels sitting

34:14

next to each other and

34:15

one doesn't taste right.

34:17

You take

34:19

you pull that barrel out of the program,

34:22

you know, and give it

34:23

away to,

34:26

you know, home brewers or

34:29

people making planners or one

34:31

guy took a bunch of our barrels and made

34:34

Adirondack chairs out of them. Oh,

34:36

nice. And he gave me a set of them

34:39

and a little table. It's really, really sweet. It was

34:41

really nice. Sounds awesome. Yeah.

34:44

Well,

34:44

cool. Well, related to this closely,

34:47

I guess, how important is judging

34:49

beer as a skill to develop as a brewer?

34:51

You know,

34:53

we've often heard that great beer judges make

34:55

great brewers, but what's your

34:57

experience with that? I don't think that's true at all.

34:59

No, there's great

35:01

beer judges out there, but they do not

35:04

make good beer.

35:07

There's, you know, but, you know,

35:09

there's great, you know, I don't

35:12

know, engineers out there who don't

35:14

paint very well. You know,

35:17

you see, you know, you see, you

35:19

see that in many walks of life.

35:22

But

35:22

yeah, I think if

35:25

you're a good brewer,

35:27

honing

35:27

your

35:30

judging skills will only

35:32

help you.

35:33

Right. Really is a fantastic

35:36

skill to have. And I think

35:38

it limits

35:41

your ability as a brewer if you

35:43

are not a good judge of beer. So

35:46

you have to you have to be critical

35:48

of your own beers. You have to, you know, really

35:52

be able to find

35:58

what's wrong with your beer and what's right with your beer. You

36:00

need to be honest with yourself.

36:03

Too many people, I'm sure you've experienced

36:05

this,

36:08

they run

36:10

up to you with their best beer ever.

36:12

And it's an obvious flaw

36:15

and they can't taste it. They

36:18

just, it's not anything. I've run into

36:20

it at the professional level. I go into a brewery and I

36:22

can taste an obvious flaw in the beer and I

36:24

almost feel like walking up to the brewer and

36:27

talking to him, but usually I don't.

36:29

Right, right. And

36:31

they don't taste it. And you pointed out there's

36:33

like, what? No, it's like,

36:36

so it's tough. That's

36:38

one of the beauties of competition is, they

36:41

don't know whose beer it is.

36:43

And so you get a little more honest feedback.

36:45

I think that's important. But

36:48

learning to judge

36:50

is really good. But again, I

36:52

think if you're a great judge, that

36:55

does not mean you're gonna be a great brewer.

36:59

If you're a great brewer that is a great judge, that's

37:01

a powerful comment. I think it's hard

37:04

to be a

37:05

great brewer without being a great judge,

37:07

without being able to taste these things.

37:10

Awesome.

37:11

Well, this question is very closely related

37:13

to our discussion at the beginning of the show, but we

37:16

spent a lot of time talking about technical aspects

37:18

of brewing.

37:20

But how much of beer brewing is hard?

37:25

Well, I think it can be a lot, but

37:30

you really,

37:32

you have to first master the

37:38

technical aspects of brewing, I think. Brewing

37:41

should be fun. And

37:44

if that is just slapping together

37:46

ingredients and not worrying about it,

37:48

yeah. If you like the result,

37:51

then that's perfect. You don't need to do

37:53

more. You just need to enjoy brewing.

37:56

Share the beer with your friends. Relax.

38:00

have fun,

38:01

drink a homebrew. You

38:05

don't need to master the technical.

38:08

You need some technical. But I

38:11

think if you really want to get the

38:13

most out of the artistic side of brewing,

38:15

you have to first really

38:17

be

38:18

a very solid with

38:20

all your technical aspects of

38:22

brewing. You need to be able to repeat your

38:25

process

38:26

and things like that. And then the

38:27

artistic

38:29

things that you come up with will have more

38:32

meaning, will turn out better. More

38:34

impacts, I guess. Yeah, if you're

38:37

just throwing out artistic

38:40

ideas,

38:41

they may be the greatest ideas

38:43

in the world, but they're going to fail if there's

38:46

not solid brewing underneath them. So

38:48

make sure you can. I

38:50

always encourage people to brew the

38:53

traditional styles, classic

38:57

styles,

38:58

from a known recipe

39:00

that

39:00

produces great results.

39:03

And

39:04

once you do that, and

39:06

you have success

39:08

with that, then is when you start

39:11

coloring outside the box. That's

39:13

when you start

39:15

bringing

39:17

your own flair to things.

39:20

I'd love to encourage people to get

39:23

used to or get familiar with the flavors too

39:25

as well. Like

39:27

the ingredient flavors, a lot of people don't know

39:29

the difference between one hop and the other, for

39:31

example.

39:32

Right. I think one

39:35

of the best ways to

39:37

become more familiar with the flavors

39:40

is to do the smash

39:43

beers, single hop.

39:46

Single hop, single malt, right? Yeah.

39:50

Single malt, yeah. Smash

39:54

beers, I call them. And

39:57

you do that.

39:59

let's say,

40:02

you know, you get used to that.

40:04

Then you can, you know, add, you know,

40:07

something like a crystal 40 and see

40:09

how that beer has changed.

40:11

And once you get used to those flavors,

40:14

um, also, you know, tasted chew

40:16

some of the ingredients, um,

40:19

you know, sniff your hops,

40:21

sniff your mold, your, your, your specialty

40:24

grains, taste some of the grains.

40:26

Um, well, they have this, uh, you've probably

40:28

seen it. And I'm sure that the new ASBC method

40:30

for doing sensory analysis on malt, where you

40:32

make a little tea out of the mall, it's actually very effective

40:35

for getting an idea

40:36

of what the malt flavor might be. Absolutely.

40:39

That's a great method as well. Great thing for

40:41

a club to do or something like that. Yeah.

40:44

And you can do that. And if you've

40:46

done a smash beer to

40:49

compare it to, um,

40:51

then, um, you

40:53

know, once, once you've got that

40:56

and you go, okay, this is what this, this especially

40:58

malt tastes like,

40:59

uh, in a beer, this

41:01

is what it tastes like in a tea. And

41:03

then when you do the other teas, let's say, you know,

41:05

crystal 10, crystal 80 and crystal one 20,

41:09

go, okay. Now I'm

41:11

getting more of a sense of how that'll play out in a

41:13

beer.

41:16

Um, have you experimented and built,

41:18

uh, beers around a maybe unusual

41:21

ingredient flavor? I know there's a lot of, uh, interesting

41:23

stuff coming out of South America, for example.

41:26

Yeah. Um, I,

41:29

not a lot. I mean, single ingredient,

41:31

uh, usually, um,

41:32

you know, multiple ingredients,

41:35

you know, uh,

41:37

but, uh, I, I, I did

41:40

a really nice, uh, bacha

41:42

bacha tea IPA. Um,

41:45

that was just, you know, bacha tea and,

41:48

you know, you know, IPA. I

41:50

thought that that was a lot of fun. I

41:52

really enjoyed that. Um,

41:53

yeah. You know, the color,

41:56

you know,

41:56

the haze, uh, and, and just

41:58

that tea character is great.

41:59

And then used a

42:03

lot of woods, some

42:07

of the woods that are available now

42:10

from South America have

42:15

some really interesting spicy characters

42:18

to them. Other than that, single

42:20

ingredient, no, generally

42:22

multiple ingredients. And the reason

42:25

being to add a layer of

42:28

complexity to

42:30

those beers. Have you built a

42:32

lot of beers around spices or fruits?

42:35

Yeah, a fair amount.

42:38

Especially in our sour program,

42:40

we did a lot of different fruits,

42:42

we

42:42

did some spices. It's

42:45

really fun to work with spices

42:48

and fruits. It's

42:51

a bit more like cooking. And

42:54

it really makes

42:57

dramatic change and

42:59

you'd be surprised playing around with some

43:01

of your favorite food flavors

43:04

and how they can marry up in beers. That's a

43:07

really fun way going about it.

43:10

Well, I wanna talk about high alcohol beers

43:13

now. They can be a real challenge because

43:15

you get, first of all, you get a lot of times low efficiency

43:17

out of the mash, but then you also have,

43:19

as you mentioned earlier, long age times

43:21

with a lot of them.

43:23

Do you have advice for brewers looking

43:25

to jump into the higher gravity

43:27

styles? And I know this is something you've

43:29

done a lot commercially.

43:31

Yeah, when it comes to certain beers, you

43:37

make barley wines or things like that, aging

43:40

time is nice. You can see how the beer

43:43

changes over time. Old

43:46

ale,

43:47

I just

43:49

recently brewed Gail's prize old ale

43:53

in England.

43:55

And that's a beer

43:57

that can age. a

44:00

long time it really changes in complexity

44:03

as time goes on. The

44:07

thing

44:09

though about Hayek and Paul Beers

44:11

is

44:12

they shouldn't need long

44:14

aging if it's not part of the style.

44:17

For example, at

44:18

Heretic, we

44:20

made the 18% IPA called whale

44:24

juice. And we

44:26

every year made an evil three

44:28

that beer with Mitch Steele

44:31

and Tasty

44:32

McDowell and myself

44:35

that was 11.5%.

44:38

And those ferment

44:40

and are ready just

44:42

like any other beer of beer that's 4%.

44:46

And that's

44:48

based off of good fermentation

44:50

practices.

44:52

Healthy yeast,

44:55

proper temperature control and

44:57

a word that can

45:01

ferment to those high degrees.

45:03

So when you're making something

45:05

like an 18% IPA, what you're

45:08

going to do is build

45:11

a high gravity

45:15

IPA to start with. When

45:19

we did our evil three, it was

45:21

all malt. It was like

45:24

we added sugar,

45:25

dextrose and all. And we add a little bit

45:27

of dextrose.

45:28

But

45:32

you do it all malt beer if

45:34

you're bringing something real high gravity.

45:38

Ferment that out using your

45:41

yeast

45:42

and a good pitch of yeast and nice

45:45

healthy ferment.

45:48

Get that thing to attenuate, eat all

45:50

the maltose maltotriose

45:52

that's in there and then start

45:54

dosing with dextrose

45:57

and the dextrose will ferment out easily.

46:00

Be careful, you don't want to

46:02

dump in a bunch

46:05

of dextrose that won't ferment, so you

46:07

dose it each day

46:09

with as much as the yeast can take that day.

46:12

You can add some nutrients,

46:14

you can even add oxygen, and

46:18

slowly bring the ABV

46:20

up. Like that

46:23

similar technique that dogfish

46:25

use

46:26

on their 120, I think it is, and

46:29

I think Sam Adams

46:31

used on their Utopia

46:34

as well. You

46:37

can bring a beer up to about 25% doing that. Wow,

46:41

so you're basically just adding sugar

46:43

at the end to try and drive the ABV up, huh?

46:45

Yes, use dextrose, don't

46:48

use cane sugar or beet sugar or anything

46:50

like that.

46:52

The flavor of those when they ferment is

46:54

not as pleasant as dextrose. Dextrose

46:57

is much better sugar to use for beer brewing.

47:01

And

47:04

yeah, you can chase the ABV up.

47:07

So that gets around a lot of the problems

47:09

with really big mashes, for

47:12

example, right?

47:12

Right. You

47:16

still want to do as big a mash as you can. You

47:19

want to get all your malt flavors

47:22

and all that in there as high

47:24

as possible, but

47:25

you want that to fully attenuate.

47:29

And then

47:30

start adding your sugars. If you do it all

47:32

at once, the yeast

47:34

will consume the simple

47:36

sugars

47:37

and then

47:39

really not consume as much

47:42

of the maltose. And

47:44

you end up with a very under

47:47

attenuated

47:48

character to the beer.

47:51

The other issue is, as you're doing this,

47:53

if you

47:56

add too much of the dextrose,

47:59

you have to kind of... to read the yeast and see

48:01

where it's slowing down and

48:04

when it's getting tired. And if

48:06

you can add another dose of dextrose, I've

48:08

tasted some other commercial

48:10

examples

48:11

where the brewers just kept

48:14

going and the thing ends up sickly

48:16

sweet.

48:17

So you have to be careful and stop

48:20

and you wanna leave as dry a character as possible

48:23

so the beer tastes like IPA

48:26

or something like that. And of course that has a lot

48:28

to do with the alcohol tolerance for the yeast you're starting

48:30

with, right?

48:31

Yeah, we did

48:34

whale juice with OO1,

48:37

the Y-Labs, I think they list the

48:39

alcohol tolerance on that as like 10%

48:41

or something, but

48:43

almost every yeast

48:46

around will do at least 15%.

48:50

Most of them can be pushed to 18%, fairly easy.

48:54

You've just gotta give them the right conditions.

48:57

So OO1 to 18%.

49:00

Wow. I think Chris

49:02

White was maybe surprised about that one too. Yeah.

49:06

Well, you're feeding it sugar obviously, so that's different.

49:09

Right. But you know, yeast

49:11

do, different yeasts do have different alcohol

49:13

tolerances, but and you could

49:16

use a different yeast if you really wanna push it up. There's

49:19

some yeast that'll do, like I said, 25%. We

49:22

like the character of the OO1 yeast, so

49:25

stuck with that.

49:27

So home brewing's been in

49:29

decline for about 10 years

49:32

now in terms of total numbers. Where

49:34

do you see home brewing go in the future? Is it gonna increase?

49:37

Is it gonna decline further? I don't know.

49:40

I don't know.

49:44

It seems like maybe a lot

49:46

of the home brewers have gone

49:49

over to professional brewing because a number

49:52

of professional brewing says has

49:54

really increased. I don't think that explains

49:57

all of the missing home brewers, but

49:59

I think it's...

49:59

goes back to what we were talking about earlier is

50:02

how technical home brewing has become. And

50:05

I think the way that home brewing

50:07

really took off and became

50:10

such

50:10

a trend was the work of

50:14

Charlie Papazian, where he was telling

50:16

people to relax and it's fun and

50:18

just have a home brew. And

50:20

he was right, and that's what really gets

50:22

people in. When people

50:25

are faced with

50:26

buying masses of stainless

50:28

steel and learning calculations

50:32

and dealing with water adjustments

50:34

and all this stuff, it kind of

50:37

makes the

50:38

barrier to entry really

50:40

high. And I think that that's the

50:43

problem we have now, is too many people are

50:45

talking about how technical

50:47

home brewing is. But it could be

50:49

simple and easy. With

50:50

the

50:54

Bruzilla that Chris Graham gave

50:56

me from Warbeard,

50:59

the first beer

51:01

I did on it, I didn't bother really,

51:03

I just said, yeah, like

51:06

eight pounds of base

51:07

malt, a pound of crystal and

51:11

a dash of roast and that was

51:14

it. I didn't check gravity, I didn't

51:16

do anything. I kind of

51:19

paid attention to the times, I just took it really

51:21

easy and I loved it. And it was so much

51:23

fun and so simple.

51:26

And that's, I think if other people

51:28

saw that, they'd go, oh, I

51:30

can just buy this one piece of equipment and that's

51:32

pretty much all I need. It's like, yep, that's all

51:34

you need.

51:35

And I think we'd get a lot more people

51:38

into home brewing. And whoever

51:40

those would love it, really want to take it technical,

51:42

which is great.

51:43

But we need to make sure that we're

51:46

furthering the simplicity of

51:48

home brewing, the joy of home brewing.

51:53

Some malt extract

51:55

on the stove with some friends

51:58

while you have pizza.

52:00

That is a fun

52:02

time. And if we

52:05

remember

52:06

those roots of home brewing, I think home brewing

52:08

could grow again and it will. But

52:11

if we all just keep going down the road

52:13

of

52:14

it being super technical.

52:16

And I'm

52:18

a big part to blame for that too. But

52:23

I like to remind everybody that

52:26

home brewing is actually super easy and super

52:28

simple.

52:29

It's easier than baking

52:31

a cake in some instances. So let's

52:34

do that and

52:36

home brewing will continue to thrive.

52:39

And then I guess just the last question I had was,

52:41

how do you feel about professional brewing? It's

52:44

obviously, I think we topped over 9,000 not

52:46

too long ago.

52:48

Craft breweries, are they going

52:51

to peak at some point? I mean, is this thing just going

52:53

to continue to grow forever?

52:58

I don't know. I mean, there is a

53:00

chance that we end up with 20,000

53:02

or 30,000 breweries in

53:03

the US. And

53:06

they'll all be really small places

53:09

that

53:10

in a way are too small

53:13

and will struggle every

53:15

day to make

53:18

a business of it. Something

53:20

will settle out one way or another. I think

53:23

the days of

53:24

bigger regional breweries is

53:26

kind of done.

53:31

Yeah, and we'll see.

53:34

One of the things that kind of concerns

53:36

me is.

53:39

And I think it was more when breweries were

53:41

growing really fast and there was

53:43

a lot of expansion in craft brewing. We saw

53:45

a lot of people entering

53:48

in and and even some people have been around

53:51

a long time.

53:52

Not the

53:56

craft beer and home brewing.

53:59

and commercial brewing

54:01

was a very communal thing,

54:04

a very sharing

54:07

and kind industry

54:09

where everybody helped everybody. And

54:11

if you didn't help everybody, something

54:14

was wrong with you. And it was you, you,

54:18

when people would come to

54:21

heretic, they needed cans, we'd give them cans. They

54:23

need a mall, we'd give them a mall. And

54:25

sometimes we'd go back to those people and say, hey, can

54:27

you help us out where we're

54:29

short a sack of, this or

54:31

that.

54:33

And everybody helped and everybody shared information.

54:36

Well, when the

54:38

growth was really upon us,

54:41

were a lot of people getting in and they were not

54:43

part of that group. They wouldn't share, they

54:45

didn't. It became

54:48

more contentious and unpleasant.

54:52

Then the pandemic hit and

54:55

things kind of crashed and then people

54:57

became insular. And then after

54:59

that has passed,

55:04

it's a really weird market and everybody's

55:06

suffering.

55:07

But you see some of the

55:10

people kind of getting back together again and

55:12

helping each other out.

55:14

And I wanna see that continue. I

55:16

think

55:17

without that, it's not craft

55:19

beer, it doesn't. And

55:21

as far as I'm concerned, the whole industry can go ahead

55:23

and die. That's the way

55:25

it's gonna be.

55:29

We all need to help each other. Rising

55:32

tide lifts all boats. We

55:34

need to work together to

55:38

help home brewers. Professional brewers should be helping

55:40

home brewers, not fighting with them or

55:43

arguing that they're

55:44

somehow unpleasant.

55:46

Home brewers should be helping craft

55:48

brewers and help promoting them.

55:50

We all should be working together

55:52

and we'll be stronger if we do.

55:54

And there will be more

55:57

opportunities for everyone, there'll be better beer

55:59

for everyone.

55:59

There'll be better ingredients and

56:02

better, you know,

56:03

inventions in,

56:06

you know, home brewing equipment,

56:08

professional brewing equipment, ingredients.

56:11

You know, we'll continue to see this thing

56:14

grow and improve,

56:15

but not if we don't work together.

56:20

Well, Jamil, I really appreciate you being

56:22

on the show today. Thanks so much for taking

56:24

time out of your busy day to be

56:26

here.

56:27

I love chatting with you, Brad. It's

56:30

always a pleasure. My guest today was Jamil

56:33

Zaynicheff.

56:34

He's author of Brewing Classic Styles and

56:36

the Practical Guide to Fermentation, and of course,

56:38

a professional brewer and podcaster

56:40

as well.

56:41

Thank you again, Jamil.

56:43

Take care, brother. A

56:47

big thank you to Jamil Zaynicheff for joining

56:49

me this week.

56:50

Thanks also to Crap Beer and Brewing Magazine.

56:52

They offer access to videos, brewing

56:54

courses, exclusive articles, and the amazing

56:57

Crap Beer and Brewing Magazine.

56:59

Go to BeerAndBrewing.com to get your

57:01

subscription today.

57:03

And also, Beersmith Web, the online version

57:05

of Beersmith Brewing Software.

57:07

Beersmith for the web lets you design great beer

57:09

recipes from any browser, including your tablet

57:12

or your phone.

57:13

Edit recipes on the go with access to tens

57:15

of thousands of recipes,

57:17

as well as a full suite of recipe building tools

57:20

that our desktop version has.

57:22

Try Beersmith Web today by

57:24

creating a free account at BeersmithRecipes.com.

57:27

Again, that's BeersmithRecipes.com.

57:31

And finally, a reminder to smash the like and

57:33

subscribe buttons on YouTube, iTunes,

57:35

Spotify, or whatever platform you're listening to.

57:38

It helps us in many ways when you click on that

57:40

button.

57:41

I'd like to thank you for listening, and I hope you

57:43

have a great

57:45

brewing week!