0:02

Welcome to this new episode of Before the

0:04

Applause with me , your host , David Watson

0:06

. In this episode

0:08

, we talk to Louise Yates . She's the

0:11

pint-sized powerhouse producer , artistic

0:13

director and audience engagement pioneer

0:15

, creating waves up and down the country through

0:17

her unique approach to collaborating with communities defying

0:20

the norm . She's on a mission to weed

0:22

out inauthentic engagement and resetting

0:25

how long-lasting and impactful community engagement

0:27

can truly be achieved . We

0:29

talk about how placing communities in the driving seat of

0:31

programming and taking it right to their doorsteps

0:33

breaks down barriers that can resolve

0:35

these surprising things . We

0:37

also explore the importance of creating the right

0:39

invitation to participate

0:41

and experience great art and culture , and

0:44

that the welcome they receive doesn't end with a goodbye

0:46

after organisations , artists and practitioners

0:49

tick that box , but actually a

0:51

see you soon . Grab

0:53

a cup of something nice and join us as we discover

0:55

more . Before the applause Lou

0:57

, welcome to the show , hello .

1:00

Thanks for having me on .

1:02

No , thanks for doing this . I've been looking forward to

1:04

this one and I've been waiting for a long time

1:06

to deep dive into your world and get other

1:08

people to listen to what you've been up to . I

1:11

feel scared . Why are you scared ? For this

1:13

is a good conversation , I don't know . So

1:16

I thought we would start with a

1:19

little look back of your career

1:21

, and I wondered if you could talk to me a

1:23

little bit about where it all started

1:26

, what have you been up

1:28

to and , ultimately , where are you

1:30

now ?

1:31

Well , I think I need to go right

1:33

back to really when

1:35

I was a teenager and

1:38

I know people have quite a similar story

1:40

, in that it was a

1:42

person , a really ace teacher

1:45

, who switched me on to the arts . I

1:48

was unbelievable . I was a nightmare teenager

1:51

. I just loved having a

1:53

good time and that didn't involve learning

1:55

in any way , shape or form . I'd be

1:57

kind of present , but doing my own thing

1:59

at school , just

2:01

looking for fun . Basically , I

2:03

had this really great drama teacher called

2:05

Dave Kelman and

2:08

he's over in Australia now like

2:10

spreading the love , but

2:12

he just saw something in me and

2:14

he was interested and gave me time

2:16

and he encouraged me to join a local

2:19

youth theatre . It's called Southwood

2:21

Youth Theatre . It was a youth theatre but there was

2:23

people of all ages in it . I

2:25

remember there was somebody in it that was like in their 50s

2:27

. It was a real mix

2:29

of people and we created really

2:31

ace work . We

2:34

did shows that really looked at the

2:36

issues in the area In

2:38

South Leeds . It's

2:40

quite a diverse area and

2:43

pockets are diverse

2:45

. There was

2:47

a lot of issues around racism

2:50

, around people's identity , and

2:52

the school was kind of bringing that

2:54

all together . It was a bit of a melting

2:56

pot really , and

2:59

Dave was an absolute genius . He

3:02

got us all talking about those issues . He

3:04

got us performing . He got money from

3:06

Leeds United for us to make

3:08

work and brought really interesting writing . So

3:11

he really switched me on and , to be honest

3:13

, if it weren't for him I would

3:15

never have got into college . He

3:18

really supported me and so while

3:20

I was at the youth theatre and kind of finishing

3:23

off school and going to college , I

3:25

started working professionally as an actor . So

3:28

I got some professional jobs in TV

3:30

and film and I

3:33

didn't really enjoy it . I

3:35

thought I would and I'd been to quite a lot of

3:37

auditions . So when I went to auditions

3:39

I didn't feel like I really fit . I

3:42

don't know , it just didn't feel right

3:44

for me . I love that live

3:46

experience . I love being on stage and

3:49

having an audience there and getting

3:51

a response that was quite instant , whereas

3:53

filming just seemed really long and

3:56

you

3:59

know you wasn't following a story . I

4:02

guess I just wanted things to happen really

4:04

quickly . That really wasn't

4:06

for me . And we started to talk to

4:08

the producer of a film that I was doing about

4:11

some opportunities in Emmerdale and

4:13

on Children's Ward and

4:17

I knew I didn't want to do that and

4:19

the thing that had really kind of put me off . I'd

4:21

done some interviews with local press in

4:23

Leeds and they'd just put pressure

4:25

on me so they put this story out

4:27

about . You know , this is a young

4:30

girl from Leeds and she could be the next big thing and

4:32

that absolutely terrified

4:34

me . I

4:37

was like I don't want to go down this road

4:39

. I don't know what that means . They're digging into

4:42

my life , into my background , and

4:44

I just felt really uncomfortable with it . But

4:47

the director of the film that I was working on at

4:49

the time , maggie Ford , she just gave me some

4:51

really sound advice . You know . She said

4:53

if you dip out now , these opportunities

4:55

are always going to be there , you

4:58

know . So you really need to think about long term what

5:00

you want to do . And I

5:02

started going for interviews

5:04

at universities and that felt

5:06

a little bit early . I was kind of in

5:09

the position where I wasn't sure where

5:11

I fit , you

5:13

know , with any teenager . But I think it's

5:15

so hard when you're trying to

5:17

work as a performer , you judge

5:19

so much , there's so much pressure , and

5:21

I was really feeling that . I

5:24

was also kind of touring around night

5:28

clubs and venues with Inna

5:30

Cabaretia and I loved that

5:32

. So you know

5:34

, I had this kind of different life

5:37

, on a night as well as a night out

5:39

, so I had all these different things

5:41

going on and I've always kind of liked

5:43

having lots of different things going on . But

5:46

I felt I had to make a bit of a decision . So

5:49

I missed loads of interviews

5:51

for different universities . But I turned up

5:54

for an interview at

5:56

University of York and got

5:58

a place and it was the Scarborough

6:00

campus where the course was run . So

6:02

I did this studies with Music Tech

6:04

and they

6:08

kind of got me to

6:10

kind of think about not

6:12

so much longer term what I wanted to do , but

6:14

to just really think about the skills that

6:16

I had at that time and what I was interested

6:19

in and

6:21

just to lose myself

6:23

a little bit in the work rather

6:25

than thinking about where

6:28

I wanted to be next . So

6:30

I started to think less about my career and

6:33

more about just learning and enjoying

6:35

. Whilst I was at uni I had loads

6:37

of other things going on at the same time . I was working

6:39

loads . I had loads of

6:41

costumes . So I opened a shop underneath

6:44

the market in Scarborough . It was like

6:46

a retro clothing shop . So

6:49

I had that going . I pretty much nearly

6:51

moved into the shop because it was only £25

6:53

a week for rent and it all in the lecture

6:55

. It was £25 a week .

6:57

Wow .

6:58

And it became like a bit

7:00

of a hub for people

7:02

to come and to chat about music

7:04

. So I always had the record player on and play

7:07

music and to chat about theatre , chat

7:09

about clothes . So

7:14

I guess it felt like a really nice community

7:16

space . And obviously I was

7:18

away from Leeds and a lot of my friends . I

7:20

met loads of people through the shop as well . So

7:23

I had sets of friends at the uni and

7:25

through the shop and the events

7:27

that I used to put on through the shop . We used

7:30

to put on nights in different nightclubs and I

7:32

was still involved in this cabaret

7:34

show . So yeah , I've always kind

7:37

of had lots of fingers in lots of

7:39

pies and that has tended to at

7:41

some point come to a head and I've had

7:43

to kind of make a decision what way

7:45

do I go ? And I think within

7:47

creative industries it's

7:50

that peak and trough in it of having lots of work

7:52

and then all of a sudden not having very much work

7:54

and it gives you time to think what

7:56

next ? So

7:59

after uni

8:01

I didn't really feel lost

8:03

. I felt a bit like I'd

8:06

achieved something and really

8:08

if I'd have spoken to people and my

8:10

teachers at school they would not have believed that I would

8:12

have got to that point and

8:16

lots of things were unearthed while we were at university

8:18

. I had

8:20

some kind of test done and I found

8:23

out that I was dyslexic . And

8:26

finding that kind of information out

8:28

changes a lot of things on how I look

8:30

back at my behaviour

8:32

and how I had

8:35

somehow managed to get through

8:37

without

8:39

that being noticed . When

8:42

it was so obvious to people at university

8:44

, my lecturers were like pretty

8:46

much immediately recognising

8:49

that . So yeah , I come at . It

8:52

was definitely the right choice for me to make . You

8:54

know it was a challenge and it was uncomfortable

8:56

. The first year really struggled . You

8:59

know I was pretty much the only one on

9:01

the course that was having to work a lot to

9:03

pay , you know , for me to be there

9:05

. I didn't have to pay fees , obviously at that

9:07

point , but you know I had to work

9:10

to pay for my rent and

9:13

there was a lot of quite privileged people . But

9:16

it was so good for me . I've never shied away

9:18

from , you know , trying to get to

9:20

know people that are very different to me . I've

9:23

loved doing that . I've absolutely loved it

9:25

, and you know I was . I got really

9:27

good friends with people that had been brought up so different

9:30

to me and had such a different life . You

9:33

know that never stood in the way . They

9:35

never treated me any differently and I never treated them

9:37

any differently . So , yeah

9:39

, it was . I had a really good experience . It was the right

9:41

thing for me to do and I couldn't

9:43

keep on working professionally as an actor at that

9:45

point . I did get some offers

9:47

while I was there , but I

9:50

had to , you know , just really focus on what

9:52

I was doing and make it , just

9:54

make sure that I got the most out of being

9:57

at university , because you know it's a shot time

9:59

in your life , isn't it ?

10:01

Oh , absolutely . It can actually be quite

10:03

challenging to go through university . I

10:05

mean , it's definitely a moment that defines

10:07

you . So tell

10:09

me what happened next after the

10:11

university adventure came to an end .

10:14

So after uni I kind of chundled

10:17

around , scab a little bit , having a good time for

10:19

a year , and then went back to Leeds

10:21

and when I went back to Leeds I

10:23

started working at

10:25

Thomas Stanley College and

10:27

I taught performing arts and it's

10:29

the college that I went to . And

10:32

bearing in mind that I was an idol and

10:34

he was the same guy , ken Reid he's

10:36

another absolute legend Ken

10:39

was still there and he's , oh Ken's

10:41

just amazing , very , very well

10:43

known for the work that he's done

10:45

in Leeds and the young people

10:47

that he supported , and

10:50

he is so relaxed and chilled out

10:52

and he was like , oh well , he

10:54

said , let's

10:56

see how this goes . So I was teaching

10:59

improvisation , acting and

11:01

directing , and

11:04

I had two kind

11:06

of groups that I was working with . Well , three groups . I was

11:08

working with BTEC national students

11:10

BTEC first students and

11:12

then a group of young adults

11:15

that were in supported lodgings

11:17

close to the college

11:19

who had various

11:22

disabilities and additional needs . So

11:25

I had a real mix of people

11:27

that I was working with and

11:30

so I was doing those three units

11:32

, teaching those three units , and then I took

11:34

on teaching devising

11:37

and I absolutely

11:39

loved that . I love teaching that

11:41

and creating work . And

11:43

the BTEC nationals were

11:46

fantastic . They had some direction , they

11:48

knew where they wanted to go . The

11:50

group of young adults they

11:53

were very kind of clear about

11:55

what they wanted to get about the time with me and

11:57

they loved creating work and they loved creating

11:59

scenarios where they could talk

12:01

about issues that they felt they couldn't talk

12:04

about in everyday life . But

12:07

the BTEC first , they

12:09

were tricky . So there

12:11

were some of those students that had rocked up at

12:13

the college and kind of said they

12:16

were kind of me five , six years

12:18

before , I don't really know what I'm doing

12:21

, I've got to do something . And they were like

12:23

there you go , performing arts . They

12:25

were turning up late , they were disruptive

12:28

, the mid , my life

12:30

pretty hellish if we had off-studding

12:32

. I

12:34

had like really funny times with them where

12:36

off-stud would come in and I

12:39

would sit and be far and pleased to comment

12:41

on the person personally

12:43

, on how they look , or just sit

12:46

, just kind of think they're not here and let us get on

12:48

with what we're doing . They would always

12:50

do that . So this poor inspector

12:52

coming and she was really tall

12:54

and slim and

12:57

they just started shouting Skeletor . They wouldn't

12:59

stop shouting Skeletor and I was like , oh so

13:01

I was like , right , everybody on the floor . We're going to do some breathing

13:03

exercises . Everybody on the floor and

13:05

played the Wonder Review by Elvis and

13:08

just got them all chilled out and when

13:11

they left the room she was like , wow , that

13:13

was amazing and I was like it wasn't

13:15

at all , it was an absolute nightmare

13:18

. So

13:20

I learned so much . I was there

13:22

for a couple of years . I did my PGC through

13:24

Huddersfield University while I was there and

13:27

what that time

13:29

did for me was it got

13:31

me organised . I

13:34

had to be organised , I had to do the schemes of work

13:36

. So it

13:38

really helped me kind of as

13:40

a project manager , as a producer

13:42

, I really had to get myself organised

13:44

and plan and think about the work

13:46

and start to become a reflective

13:49

practitioner , and

13:51

I've always been really reflective since

13:54

then . So

13:56

it was a really good experience . So I

13:59

moved on from Thomas Dambey and went to work

14:01

at Hull Truck . And

14:04

you've got to bear in mind , whilst I was kind

14:06

of at Thomas Dambey and kind of all

14:08

the way along , I've always worked in clubs and clubs

14:10

behind the bar , because I can't not , I

14:14

just love doing that type of thing . So I was doing

14:16

a lot of that stuff as well , just to

14:18

kind of earn a bit more money . So

14:21

that's what kind of brought me to Hull . Hull

14:23

Truck brought me to Hull . I saw an opportunity

14:25

. They were advertising for some sort of work in their education

14:28

department and it was a really interesting

14:30

role because it was a partnership between Hull Truck

14:33

, hull City Council and

14:35

Young People Support Service . So

14:38

it was really interesting . I remember

14:41

getting a phone call to talk about the

14:43

role by a

14:45

guy called Dave Bertolini . He was

14:47

doing some really interesting projects

14:49

and he came to meet me at Leeds Station and

14:53

I thought that's a bit weird

14:55

, this is a bit strange

14:57

. So I went

14:59

and had a chat with him and he was like , you know , it's something

15:01

quite new that we're looking at

15:04

Rolling out . He

15:07

told me a lot about Young People Support Service

15:09

and because I've been working at the college

15:11

and obviously I was there as

15:14

a tutor , I spent a lot of my time

15:16

supporting young people with things like housing

15:19

and other issues in their lives , you

15:22

know , referring people to get support from , you

15:25

know , strategy services and I

15:27

just thought , wow , this Young People Support

15:29

Service sounds amazing . So I

15:32

applied and I came to Hull

15:34

for an interview and I was interviewed by a

15:37

lady who was a social worker

15:40

working for Young People Support Service and a

15:42

group of young people . So

15:44

we had a nice chat and

15:47

then that afternoon I was offered

15:49

the role . So that's really what

15:51

brought me to Hull and I

15:55

was working in different communities . I

15:57

developed some youth

16:00

theatres around the city and you

16:02

know I was really interested still in

16:04

working with people to devise work and

16:07

that's what was really driving me and

16:10

giving people a voice through that work . And

16:14

I was there for again . It was about a year

16:16

I was commuting to start off with , but I just

16:18

really fell in love with Hull , even

16:20

though when I first started commuting I

16:23

used to come on the train , couldn't

16:25

drive there and I got

16:27

off the train one day and I was running a bit late . So

16:29

I jumped in a taxi and I was going to Gypsyville

16:31

. We had an office the Young People Support Service had an office

16:33

there and I developed a youth

16:36

theatre there . So jumped in this taxi

16:38

and the taxi driver was like oh , where have you come ? So

16:40

I said , lee , I didn't even get in as far

16:43

as American golf down the road . He

16:45

kicked me out the taxi and he said

16:47

go on out . I thought he was joking

16:49

. Anyway , I'm not having a lead supporter in this taxi

16:51

. Go on out , you go . You're like I'm getting

16:53

another one . I was like are you joking ? He totally

16:55

weren't joking . I

16:58

was like . I was

17:00

like , all right . So I had to walk back to the station

17:02

and get another taxi . I told that taxi

17:05

driver and he was like , well , that's out of order , it

17:07

weren't nasty to me or anything , it was just like his principles

17:09

. You know what I mean . You're so funny . I

17:12

just thought I do know what I love this place . It's

17:14

very . It's not so easy . It's where

17:16

people are straightforward to say what they think and

17:20

you know it never . It never put me off the

17:22

place . It's something about a whole

17:24

I feel . Kind of it feels homey

17:26

to me yeah

17:28

it's a rate . It's something really

17:31

special here . You know it's the people

17:33

, but it's also there's something in the area

17:35

. It's definitely a

17:38

special place . So I

17:40

moved to Hull and

17:43

, you know , got to try to get involved in

17:45

the creative scene here . There

17:47

was so much more interesting things

17:49

going on for me than what were happening

17:52

in Leeds . It was a bit more underground

17:54

here , you know . It was more kind of felt

17:56

, a bit more organic , a bit more

17:58

of

18:00

a scene that wasn't

18:03

as mainstream as the stuff that was going on in

18:05

Leeds , and Leeds was getting to the point

18:07

where it was a bit flashy

18:09

for me in some ways . You

18:11

know the city centre was a bit , you know , all

18:14

singing , all dancing and I

18:16

don't know . I thought for me it lost

18:19

its soul a little bit . So

18:22

I was , I was due a change and

18:24

so , yeah , working for

18:27

on this project with with Hull Truck

18:30

and People's Park Service in the council

18:32

was was really great . It

18:34

brought me here and from

18:36

there I went to work for a

18:39

project called Creative Connections , which

18:41

was a regional youth arts project

18:43

funded through the European

18:46

Social Fund , esf , which

18:48

is a bit of a tricky

18:52

funding stream in

18:54

terms of the amount of evaluation and

18:56

monitoring that you have to do so

18:59

. I learned a lot about

19:01

that kind of area , and

19:04

it gave us

19:06

a good chunk of

19:08

money to do some really interesting projects

19:11

with young people . It

19:14

took me to loads of different places like Grimsby , scunthorpe

19:16

, did a lot in Bridlington and

19:19

there were some real moments where

19:21

I worked on projects . There

19:24

was one that I think

19:26

back a lot about where I worked

19:28

with a group of young people in Scunthorpe and

19:31

it took me a long time to

19:33

engage these young people . There was

19:36

an amazing youth centre in the centre of Scunthorpe and

19:38

it was an old cinema and there were hundreds of young people

19:41

that went there and they were all into rock music . It's a bit wild

19:43

. They're riding the bikes everywhere . It's

19:46

like amazing chaos . But

19:49

they hadn't done any kind of drama

19:51

before and they really

19:53

didn't want . They really didn't want to know . And you start

19:55

to think about it when you're working on a project like that

19:57

. Is this

19:59

all about what I want and what a funder wants

20:01

? Am I not thinking about

20:03

what the community wants ? I

20:06

thought you've got to give that time . You can't just

20:08

expect to walk in a place and for them all to go . Amazing

20:10

, you're here .

20:12

That's great .

20:13

Let's do what you say , you know , and it's

20:15

all really cut my teeth on

20:17

community work . During my time

20:19

of creative connections , I learnt so

20:22

much about how

20:24

you can set your boundaries , how

20:27

you can really think about

20:29

what true

20:31

like community engagement

20:33

is and what , what

20:35

, what it's not . You know , when it

20:38

becomes tokenistic , when

20:40

it becomes not about the people that

20:42

you're trying to engage with , and

20:44

it really got

20:46

me to hone in those skills around

20:49

how you do you voice an

20:51

influence really well and

20:53

it , and it took time and

20:55

that , but there was that moment and think there's

20:58

all you , you know , there's

21:00

certain projects where you get that moment where

21:02

the pick , the

21:04

pick , the community that you want to work with , fully

21:07

engage with it and they

21:09

take it on , they're invested

21:11

and everything changes

21:13

. And that's the point

21:15

where I could . I

21:17

could either get even more involved

21:20

in it , but that's the moment actually where you've

21:22

got to take a breath , calm yourself

21:24

down and take a few steps back and

21:27

let people own the project and

21:30

hand the reins over . And

21:32

I think that sometimes is really

21:34

really difficult to do because

21:36

actually most of the time quite

21:38

a control freak first

21:42

people you've got to know when to let

21:44

go and they created this

21:46

show about youth rights and

21:49

it was amazing how the the

21:51

there's a big , there's a big

21:53

stage in this gorgeous , it's gorgeous

21:56

data that being the cinema

21:58

and it was packed . It was absolutely packed

22:00

and I was really worried about

22:02

hundreds of young people being in there and

22:05

they've not before . The group had not performed

22:07

before in front of people and I'm like how are we gonna

22:09

cook ? So it was noisy . You know

22:11

they were shouting that the minute the music

22:13

started it was silent . I

22:16

was sad at the front and had a

22:18

sound person with

22:21

me , so I brought in

22:23

a freelancer to operate the sound and

22:25

I was operating sorry

22:27

, there was operating the lights and I was operating

22:30

the sound and I was just sat

22:32

there looking them and there were just tears rolling down the cheeks

22:34

the whole way through and I was

22:36

so proud of them

22:39

and I just think you can't

22:41

I'm getting like upset thinking

22:43

about it you know , you can't . You

22:45

can't just expect to

22:47

get that kind of engagement

22:51

from people and that buying from people

22:53

without a lot of work , without giving

22:55

a lot of your time , and you

22:58

know it's difficult sometimes to

23:00

kind of manage where

23:02

you being . You've

23:04

been very you've been professional and

23:07

but you've been really human as well and

23:10

you know it's it's getting

23:13

that fine balance and when you get

23:15

that right , those kind of amazing

23:17

things can happen . So

23:19

, yeah , we did some fantastic projects

23:21

, that creative connections , and then I had

23:23

a break while had my daughter , not for very

23:26

long , because I get bored . You

23:28

know that was a lot of having baby , but you

23:30

know I was like I need you know it

23:32

can be really hard in it for for working

23:34

mums unit and , you know , for

23:37

working dads as well , working

23:39

people that have got caring responsibilities

23:42

and and parents . It's

23:44

difficult and about

23:47

to us . We've joined parents in performing arts

23:49

. You know I think it's you've got

23:51

to really think about what those issues

23:53

are . Now you can support people we

23:55

care in need and

23:57

so I took some time out . And then , because

24:00

we've created connections , I've worked within all

24:02

four local authorities North

24:04

East links , north links , east riding , ample

24:06

, and and they were

24:09

all kind of interested in me working with them

24:11

, but made the decision to to work

24:13

for Hull and though

24:15

there was a role with within

24:17

arts development and community occasion , so

24:20

that kind of eased me back

24:22

in and

24:24

you know you've got to kind of find your feet again but

24:26

I don't like to do that for too long

24:28

I was rampaging around long

24:30

hill but you know , working with some young

24:33

people and and talking

24:35

to them about projects that they'd like to do . So

24:37

I kind of got back

24:39

into the swing of things quite quickly when

24:41

Nancy was about four months old and

24:45

so that kind of brought me to to

24:47

Hull again and I'm

24:49

working for Hull City Council and

24:52

it's so interesting working for a local

24:54

authority , you know when you're in

24:56

it and not . You know I've worked in partnership

24:58

with local authorities when I was at creative connections . But

25:01

you know , being in it working within

25:03

a local authority again , you learn so much

25:05

. You've I've got such a better understanding

25:07

. I couldn't understand , you know , why there was

25:10

certain procedures in place and

25:12

why things maybe took a little bit longer

25:14

. So I didn't understand kind

25:17

of the scale of the operation . You

25:19

know they're just huge and there's so

25:22

much kind of

25:24

to consider for them and

25:26

so many people involved in

25:29

the decisions that are made by local authority

25:31

. So , you know , I understand

25:34

that a lot better now and appreciate

25:36

that more . And obviously , whilst

25:39

I was at Hull City Council , it's where

25:41

I got involved in in city of culture and

25:43

the bid . And obviously

25:45

, the moment that that

25:48

day that Hull was announced

25:51

as UK City of Culture 2017

25:53

, I was stood in

25:55

Hull Truck Theatre next to Karen

25:57

O'Carrick of being you know , she does

25:59

a lot of work in communities . She's now on

26:01

back to Asgard and she'd been

26:03

involved in the bid process

26:06

and you know she'd been involved in the interviews

26:08

for City of Culture and I stood next to

26:10

up next to her and I was holding her hand and it was just

26:13

again one of those moments where I

26:15

can hear the voice

26:17

of the culture minister . I

26:20

can still hear that voice echoing in my head how

26:22

she said Hull , you know

26:24

when she said those words . They're just

26:26

place erupted . I

26:28

mean you , things were going to be different from their nom and

26:32

how .

26:32

When you look now , you're reflecting on

26:34

that moment . What , at that

26:36

point , did you have any kind of aspirations

26:39

for it ? You know , for the year itself

26:42

, what were they ? What were they I ?

26:45

thought to myself if , if

26:47

I can engage people

26:50

in the arts when we're City

26:53

of Culture , I'm never gonna be able

26:55

to do it this . I

26:57

thought this is a real opportunity to

26:59

get some amazing experiences

27:03

out into communities , so

27:06

I knew that's what I wanted to do

27:08

. In the lead up to

27:10

the bid I'd

27:12

been working on a project called Network

27:14

Neighbourhood Torry , which is actually now back

27:16

to ours , and I've been in lots

27:19

of discussions with Paul Holloway

27:21

, the Arts Development Manager at the Council

27:23

. Me and Paul have been

27:25

to meet with some

27:29

venues that were that we

27:31

thought might be interested in having

27:33

a Torry network very similar

27:35

to the rural Torry

27:37

network , taking work out

27:40

into community venues

27:42

. And whilst I was an arts

27:44

development officer , I'd kind of

27:46

obviously brought all my experience but

27:49

I kind of call it baggage sometimes all

27:51

this baggage of how

27:54

I , how I really

27:57

got under the

28:00

skin , of how

28:03

to work well with people and

28:06

how to involve people as participants

28:08

in a really meaningful

28:10

way , and I didn't

28:12

want to kind of lose

28:14

sight of that . That was something

28:17

that , to me , I was , I was really passionate about

28:19

. I was passionate about the arts reaching

28:21

everybody and I was passionate

28:23

about people having a voice

28:25

within the arts that you know wouldn't

28:28

be listened to . Usually

28:31

in the in the arts that you know , that weren't

28:33

the regular voices , because

28:36

I'd seen how powerful that could

28:38

be and I'd seen how that could

28:40

create work that was of quality

28:42

. And I think

28:44

, up until working

28:47

at creative connections

28:50

, I'd sometimes had the view that

28:52

community it didn't have to

28:54

be , community work didn't have to community arts

28:56

didn't have to kind of be of

28:58

quality . That wasn't the priority . But

29:02

I'd learnt that yes , it

29:04

was a priority and it should

29:06

be a priority .

29:08

Why do you think that idea of it

29:11

not needing to be of quality was floating around

29:13

?

29:14

I think because where

29:16

I think sometimes it's the nature of certain

29:18

funding that

29:21

people take

29:25

on projects and it's

29:27

very driven by a funder's

29:29

needs and that

29:33

could mean that the project has got

29:35

to focus on quite a specific

29:38

outcome and

29:40

the outcome is around what

29:44

benefits

29:47

the wider community and

29:50

what might be of benefit nationally

29:52

to this country . But where's

29:54

this person in that mix ? What's

29:58

the best thing for that person ? And

30:00

sometimes it don't give you a certain

30:02

funding and just

30:04

the culture of delivering

30:08

arts projects For

30:11

me at that time was very much

30:13

not about individual

30:16

needs , but

30:21

that was kind of happening

30:23

. When you're working on a project and say the outcome

30:26

is for the people that

30:28

are involved in the project at the end

30:30

to gain employment

30:32

or gain certain skills , to be able to

30:34

then move on , that's

30:38

great on mass , if that's

30:40

what you want to do . But within

30:42

that there's individual people that

30:44

are going to reach that goal at all

30:47

different times and at different places

30:49

. So

30:51

it can be quite tricky and

30:54

the arts can be used as

30:57

the vehicle . So

30:59

it's not that the arts doesn't become the

31:01

priority , it's

31:03

that end goal and

31:07

I've always tried to make sure that

31:09

we

31:12

did . There were nine practitioners

31:15

working on creative

31:17

connections and we all had different creative skills

31:19

and we've come from different

31:22

backgrounds and

31:26

we'd all worked professionally within

31:28

the industry . So

31:30

we're bringing that experience

31:33

in with us . And what

31:35

we weren't saying and what I was not

31:37

saying when I was embarking on

31:40

Network Neighborhood Touring was

31:42

that I wanted to go out there and train people

31:44

to be actors . I

31:48

weren't even thinking that when I was

31:50

teaching at Thomas Danby College . Not

31:52

everybody there wanted to go on to be a performer

31:55

. Some people were really

31:57

clear that they wanted to come to college and then they wanted

31:59

a job at the end of it and they were considering

32:01

lots of different options and they were

32:03

there because it gave them confidence . And

32:07

some people were like I'm just here because I don't know what else

32:09

to do . So I think I was comfortable

32:11

I'd always been comfortable with about

32:14

people wanting different things , but

32:16

being really clear

32:19

within my work that there

32:21

has to be some exchange

32:24

, and I've talked about

32:26

that before to people around

32:28

. What is the exchange ? Because

32:30

for me the exchange can't be about

32:35

what I want or about

32:37

what a funder wants , because that fits with government

32:40

policy . I've

32:43

got to think about the people

32:45

, the community of people I'm

32:47

trying to engage with . What

32:49

do they want ? So I've got to really

32:52

listen to what that is and listen

32:54

to various people

32:56

. So , for example

32:59

, when I started working

33:01

on Network Neighborhood Touring , obviously

33:04

I needed to think about what people

33:06

would want to see and how they'd

33:08

want to get involved in communities around hub

33:10

, in their neighbourhoods , and

33:13

within each neighbourhood there's so many communities of

33:15

people to consider as well , and

33:18

the card game that we

33:20

developed , the Programming Poker , allowed

33:23

me to then go out and to

33:25

speak to those people that

33:27

I was trying to actually engage , but

33:30

also to speak to the people around them

33:32

. So what was interesting was

33:35

when sometimes I would play the game with

33:37

the very people that I'm trying to engage

33:39

with , who I would like to be the audience . So

33:42

I would be in Morrison's Cafe

33:44

playing the game . A family would come along

33:46

and they'd ask

33:48

me what I was doing because the card had laid out on the table

33:50

. I've kind of explained to them that I've

33:52

got this idea for bringing touring

33:54

work to community

33:57

locations , venues

33:59

. I was looking for people that might

34:01

be interested in that , that

34:03

could tell me what they would like to see

34:05

. People

34:09

kind of engaged with that fairly easily

34:12

and quite quickly got involved in that

34:14

, and people would be thinking

34:16

about what they wanted to see , but also what their friends

34:18

would want to see , what their family , work

34:20

colleagues . You know , people aren't always thinking

34:22

about themselves . They were thinking about other people and

34:25

I was like you know what ? That's great , let's consider

34:27

them , let's really think about you . So

34:31

I started to get a feel for

34:33

the people's tastes , ideas

34:36

. But then I would

34:38

speak to a family and

34:40

play the game , and then I would go to

34:42

the local school or I'd go

34:44

and work with a group of housing staff

34:47

from the council and I'd

34:50

play the game in two different ways with them . I'd

34:53

be asking them as for

34:55

themselves going to see things , but then I'd say

34:57

what about the people that you work with , and

35:00

obviously their day to day job , want to go

35:02

up and talk to people about what arts would you

35:04

like to see ? So you know , I said I know

35:06

that you haven't had this conversation yet

35:09

and I'll come back because I would like you to

35:11

have the conversation , but you know . So

35:13

I'm asking you to make some assumptions and

35:15

those assumptions were miles away from

35:17

what people actual

35:20

people were really saying they'd like to see . So

35:23

I went to one school and played

35:26

the game with some members of staff and they were like I really

35:28

don't think they'd be up for any of this , if I'm honest . I

35:31

think they said I think it would

35:33

be nice to have some kind of

35:36

they

35:38

were saying like vintage cars

35:40

, that type of thing . They were

35:43

coming up with some other types of events that were interesting

35:45

, but I was like what's making you think

35:47

that ? And they were like I really don't think people

35:50

in this area or families will want to

35:52

buy into this . They won't want to come

35:54

in and sit down and watch a play

35:56

. So

35:59

I guess I was making assumptions as

36:02

much as they were . And in

36:04

the end , what you've got to do sometimes show

36:06

people something , otherwise

36:10

sometimes you won't do anything , would you ? You've

36:13

got to present people with things and

36:15

then say , yeah , what is this of interest

36:18

? Is that of interest ? So

36:21

I think that was I'd kind

36:23

of I'd been coming to that conclusion

36:26

for quite a while that I needed

36:28

to . Really , if

36:30

I was going to continue to engage people

36:33

, because I absolutely saw

36:35

the benefit of that and

36:38

what that did for people , then

36:40

I would need to really

36:43

explore the other ways in

36:45

which people could get involved , because not everybody

36:47

was . I wasn't going to create a

36:50

piece of work with everybody

36:52

that I was going to work with . You know there

36:54

had to be different levels of

36:56

how people could get involved , and

36:59

when I say levels I don't kind of mean

37:02

that in a ladder , because

37:04

for me engagement is very linear . You

37:07

know , one type of engagement like being a participant

37:10

. I don't see that

37:12

as being above and beyond somebody

37:15

coming in and being an audience member for the first time

37:17

, because everybody , I think , is

37:19

on their own journey .

37:22

Yeah , and so from

37:24

this initial touring project

37:26

that you had , it became

37:28

very quickly a major feature of Hall

37:30

2017 . How

37:33

did that feel for you , seeing all

37:35

this energy being put behind it and

37:37

, ultimately , what it's turned

37:40

into today ?

37:42

Exactly is that for those moments in

37:44

the again where you think that people

37:46

are truly getting

37:48

involved with this ? So when

37:52

we'd gone from the

37:55

network near Boat touring and it had grown

37:57

into back two hours , that

38:00

had kind of happened and

38:02

I'd got funding through

38:04

Arts Council , so the

38:06

team at 2017 had worked with me to

38:09

get the funding , so there was

38:11

a pot of strategic touring money for back

38:13

two hours . I

38:15

think it went from these conversations

38:18

that me and Paul were having to

38:20

being back two hours

38:22

because there was so much . There

38:25

was a lot of buying to the project . When

38:27

we went , when City of Culture was announcing

38:29

, we could go back out and talk to people and say that

38:31

this touring network was going to

38:33

happen as a festival within

38:35

the year of culture . All of a sudden

38:38

, people were listening a lot

38:40

more the schools

38:42

that we'd started to talk to . So

38:44

it was a real opportunity . I

38:47

think beforehand thought we're

38:49

a long way off this . We've

38:52

got this woman talking about bringing touring

38:54

circus shows into our

38:57

school . That felt like such a distance

38:59

, so that

39:01

just felt like a long place off to travel

39:03

to and all of a sudden it didn't . People

39:06

were just like , yeah , anything's possible . And

39:10

at the same time as that kind of happening and

39:12

2017 being

39:14

such a big marketing machine , but

39:17

behind this project

39:19

that had been up to that point , really

39:21

kind of grassroots conversations and

39:25

again , that way that I like to

39:27

work , that's very much about the process

39:29

and giving time to the process

39:31

. There was conversations

39:34

that we'd been having with local

39:36

venues , so

39:40

we had a group of venue partners that

39:42

were our hub . So

39:45

they were like what are now the hub members

39:47

. The hub members now are residents

39:49

. So along

39:52

its journey of going from network

39:54

neighborhood touring to back to ours , along

39:57

that journey it's dug deeper

39:59

into

40:02

neighborhoods , into

40:04

groups of communities , and

40:07

it's got people more involved , more

40:10

involved in terms of the decision

40:13

making and not

40:15

just around what we program but

40:18

that is a big part of the decision making

40:20

but also about

40:22

how we

40:24

shape the program , about how we

40:26

and where we work . So how

40:28

we work and where we work , so where

40:31

in the city projects should be happening

40:33

, where there's pockets

40:35

of areas where

40:38

there's not

40:43

very much happening , and

40:45

working with residents to

40:48

have conversations that are really kind

40:50

of strategic conversations and

40:55

taking residents to see

40:57

work and having that conversation about

41:01

what is quality

41:04

about that . Who

41:06

would engage with it ? How would they engage

41:08

with it ? What are the community

41:10

assets in the places

41:12

that we're wanting to work ? Why are we

41:14

wanting to work there ? What is the data

41:17

telling us ? So

41:20

the hub members get quite

41:22

involved in that and

41:24

to the point where recently

41:27

we've just been through this

41:29

process the hub members

41:31

are commissioning artists

41:33

and

41:35

again , it's very much about the process

41:38

and sometimes we don't get that

41:40

process right , and that's another thing that

41:42

I've learned along the way is

41:46

that you're going to make

41:48

mistakes and

41:50

that's okay .

41:52

Absolutely . And how

41:55

would you describe Back to Ours today

41:57

?

41:59

It's hard to describe it's Back to Ours because it's so

42:01

many different things , but I

42:03

would describe it as it's

42:06

a brand new charity . It's an NPO

42:08

, but it's an organisation

42:10

that puts local people

42:12

at the heart of programming

42:15

. Great art experiences for

42:19

local people .

42:20

Boom . I

42:22

want to explore with you this idea

42:25

of community engagement and engagement generally

42:27

, and what you think the magic source

42:29

is for it . Because everybody talks about

42:31

it , we're all required to do it , but

42:34

Back to Ours has really

42:36

done it really well , hence

42:39

why it continues to be a great success . What

42:41

do you think is the

42:43

magic ingredient

42:45

to do community engagement well ?

42:48

I think , to do it well , and the key

42:50

thing that you've just said there is that we're

42:52

all kind of we've all got to do it

42:54

, and

42:57

I think

42:59

that poses a big issue because

43:02

not everybody wants to do it and

43:04

people sometimes feel they have to do it . So

43:08

I think the really key thing , and

43:10

the thing that I talk about a lot

43:13

, is the

43:15

invitation and

43:17

the welcome . And

43:19

when I talk about the invitation

43:22

, I think that

43:24

is the thing that , back

43:26

to Ours , does very well and

43:29

it's the thing that we're

43:31

thinking about a lot is

43:34

how do we invite people in ? And

43:39

when I say that

43:41

it feels like you're inviting them in

43:43

and then you're closing the door to other people , but

43:47

in some ways that's , it

43:49

can feel like that the arts can

43:51

feel like that . It can feel

43:53

like there

43:57

can be so many barriers for people . You

44:00

know , when we take people to

44:02

a venue for the first

44:04

time , you know that it

44:07

can , there can be a venue can

44:09

present so many different barriers . You

44:12

know , we know from data that people there's

44:15

a lot of people not engaging with the arts and

44:17

that's why , you know , we're all encouraged

44:19

to do engagement and to welcome

44:21

people in . So I think that invitation

44:24

is the key thing and to think

44:26

about why . Why are you engaging

44:28

with people and what

44:31

you engage in people in ? I

44:34

think it's those conversations within

44:37

our organization that

44:39

we're regularly having and revisiting

44:41

, which can feel a little bit

44:43

like we're going down one direction and then we

44:45

stop , we put the brakes on why we're doing this

44:47

. Let's speak to the hook , members , why we're doing

44:50

this again . Is this right ? What's

44:52

what ? What feedback are we getting from people

44:54

? So there's something around

44:57

that invitation being really

44:59

clear . What are you asking

45:02

of people , why you're asking them in ? I

45:06

think that's got to come from to

45:08

me , it's got to come from right , the very top of

45:10

an organization , you

45:12

know , right up to a board level

45:14

. Engagement

45:17

can't be something that you tag on at

45:19

the end . So you , because

45:21

some , because I think sometimes it can get

45:23

very blurred when

45:26

engagement can be a bit forced

45:28

and it can make

45:30

people feel like the artworks

45:33

not as important , when

45:35

really the two things should be coming

45:38

together . It

45:40

can feel sometimes a bit tagged on to the

45:42

end and it's like , well , we need to . We've

45:45

got this amazing piece of work and we

45:47

need to . Now we need to engage some people

45:49

in it , and sometimes that's fine

45:51

. Sometimes you know we're doing that , so

45:54

the work , you know it's a piece of work that's already

45:56

been created . There's been no engagement in it up

45:58

to that point and

46:01

then we're looking at how do

46:03

we engage people in that . So sometimes

46:06

the work does come first , or sometimes

46:08

you , you know you're creating work

46:10

with people and the engagement happens before the work

46:12

. So there's so many different scenarios

46:15

, but it's just been clear

46:17

as an organization at

46:20

what point is that invitation open and

46:23

how is that invitation being

46:27

put out to people ? Is it through a

46:29

conversation ? Is it the first

46:31

time somebody's hearing about this ? Is it

46:33

on the radio ? Is it a flyer ? As opposed to

46:35

it's really thinking about ? You

46:37

know what's that in ? How's that invitation being

46:40

put out and what is it saying ? and

46:43

we get we're lucky that we've

46:45

got so many residents involved that we

46:47

can send check some of that

46:49

stuff with them , and

46:51

sometimes they're the ones doing the invite

46:53

for us which

46:56

is part of the magic right and they're part

46:58

of the magic having , yeah

47:00

, having lots of residents involved and

47:04

telling us when things don't work and telling

47:06

us when things go wrong and

47:08

being open to saying , you

47:10

know , we've tried to engage and we've

47:12

done it . And , with you know , just being times

47:15

when we thought , do you know what we've not done ? That very well

47:17

, what went wrong there

47:19

? And and

47:22

seeing a challenge and not walking

47:24

away from it , thinking right , let's just

47:26

put the brakes on , just stop , and

47:28

let's revisit why we're doing this

47:30

work , what we're trying

47:32

to engage people in what's the invite

47:34

, what's the place and what do we know about

47:37

the place , what's who's the people

47:39

and how we're trying to , why we're trying

47:41

to reach them , how are we going to reach them ? And then

47:44

eventually , once we know about the , what

47:46

the invitation is going to be , we understand the place

47:48

, we've got an understanding of the people , then

47:51

we'll work on our welcome . And

47:54

you think , when you start to

47:56

, when you start to drill into those

47:58

four things , it

48:01

makes you realize kind of how

48:03

long this work takes , because

48:07

I'm thinking about how

48:10

I invite the audience , but

48:13

when you're doing work in

48:15

a neighborhood , in some discommunity

48:18

, you have to think about

48:20

how am I gonna get

48:23

myself an invitation

48:25

to that place after those group

48:27

of people . So sometimes

48:29

we are sometimes what we're

48:32

rewinding . So

48:34

we spend a lot of time talking about

48:36

those things talking about the invitation

48:38

, the people , the place and the welcome

48:40

but then we're

48:44

rewinding on those four

48:46

subject matters and thinking

48:48

sometimes we've gone to

48:51

places and we've

48:54

not fully known the place enough

48:56

, so

48:59

the reason it didn't work is because we didn't do our

49:01

work around the place . So

49:03

you know , we need to do some more research , we need to speak

49:06

some more people before we go back into that

49:08

area . So it's a lot

49:10

of the time with community engagement

49:12

. There's a lot of time thinking

49:15

why there's

49:19

a lot of , there's a

49:21

lot of time that you just

49:23

need to give it time

49:25

. It's not gonna happen overnight

49:27

, you know it's . But the long-term

49:30

benefits , you know fantastic

49:32

. And that's the other side of it . When you've

49:34

engaged a place or group

49:37

or community of people , it's

49:39

then what's next ? Which is why

49:41

you need that strategic thinking

49:43

from your board , from

49:46

your senior management team , to

49:48

to really plan where that's

49:50

going next and not to put that

49:52

onto one person in the organization

49:55

whose job it is to do community

49:58

engagement . And

50:00

I've done that before I've

50:02

gone right . That's your responsibility . It's like everybody's

50:04

responsibility . You

50:06

know we're all doing that work , including

50:09

myself yeah , absolutely you know , if I'm

50:11

out in an airboat chatting to people , that's

50:13

what I'm doing at that point .

50:14

You know I'm always doing it conversations

50:18

are really important and , and

50:20

I think , and that's where you get the value and on the understanding

50:23

and the trust , and trust is a big

50:25

part of community engagement

50:27

and relationships , isn't it ? I've

50:30

got a question for you around

50:32

why , why do you do this ? What ? Why

50:34

is this ? You know you're

50:36

given a lot to other people , you really think

50:39

about other people , you really want to engage

50:41

them in arts and culture , but my

50:43

question for you is why , why are

50:45

you doing this and what

50:47

is driving you ?

50:50

I'm doing this . I obviously get

50:52

something from it , you

50:54

know , and yeah , it's that one fuzzy feeling of

50:56

when things go well and when you can

50:58

sit back and think that was great , but

51:01

it's it's the same feeling

51:04

as what I got when I used to perform and

51:06

I enjoy being on stage . It's

51:08

that , it's that same feeling

51:10

that I get . But ultimately , I think

51:12

I do this because I want to

51:14

make a difference and I want to see some change

51:16

. You know , I want

51:19

the arts to be for for

51:21

everybody and people to to

51:24

have that wealth of

51:26

choice

51:28

in . You know , the things that

51:30

they can do within their life

51:32

. That , you know

51:34

, I knew weren't that open

51:37

to me when I was , when I was young , and

51:40

it took an individual person to

51:42

switch me on to the arts . You

51:44

know , and I think you've got to , I don't feel like I'm

51:46

giving that , I'm giving something back

51:48

and but it's , it is that

51:50

feeling of look that that

51:52

person really switched me on to it and I think

51:54

you know there's our HUB members are

51:57

doing that for each other . You know , it's that

51:59

ricochet effect , yeah

52:03

, and I think I think

52:05

some days it's like it's the best job in the

52:07

world , you know . So you're working

52:09

with people and that's , I guess , why

52:11

I always love like working behind the bar and

52:14

and interaction

52:16

with people and

52:19

how surprising people

52:21

can be . You know , you can

52:23

never , ever make any

52:25

assumptions and I have . I've

52:27

made loads of assumptions about what I think people

52:30

will engage with and what they were , and I'm

52:32

always surprised . So I

52:34

don't ever think , do you know what ? I know

52:36

exactly what I'm doing , I've

52:38

done it and

52:41

now I can just sit back and enjoy

52:43

this job . It's

52:45

never because I would , I'm

52:48

just a tap , as I would get really bored

52:50

with that . I'm always

52:52

thinking , well , that was a shock , that was a

52:54

surprise . Maybe I'll try this differently . I

52:56

just feel like I've still

52:59

got a long way to go

53:01

and I'll never , ever get to that

53:03

point . There'll never be an end point where

53:05

I go . Yeah , I know everything about community engagement

53:07

, I know everything about arts and communities

53:09

. I'll never get to that point and that's that's

53:12

. That's what really gets me up on

53:14

them all .

53:15

And you know , and every day is

53:17

so different- yeah , and

53:19

that's that's talking about

53:21

the change in what communities want

53:23

and need , and you mentioned change earlier on

53:25

, and this

53:28

is a theme that keeps coming up with the interviews

53:30

that I that I'm doing around . The

53:32

change and people are describing

53:34

it is the change has been

53:36

. Processes need to change the way we fun

53:38

things .

53:39

I wondered what has been the change in

53:42

the area that you work for and what is the change

53:44

that you really want to see obviously

53:47

, I've seen so much change because I've been in whole

53:49

since it for a long time

53:52

now and seen how , how arts and

53:54

culture can change a place and

53:57

just physically how

53:59

the place looks and obviously

54:01

, how certain venues

54:04

and how community assets have been used in

54:06

such a different way . Yeah , so

54:09

I think , but I think in

54:12

terms of , like , the change I'd like to see

54:14

, it is around funding . It is around

54:16

how short

54:18

term funding can be , because

54:21

I have I do I have concerns

54:23

around engaging people

54:25

and in something

54:28

and getting them so involved in something

54:30

that's so short term , when

54:32

I know that I

54:34

want to engage people and their

54:37

families and their friends in arts

54:39

and culture long

54:41

term , for

54:44

that to become a way of life

54:46

, a choice for them that

54:48

they can make , and that I

54:50

know that that takes time , and when

54:52

you're constantly having to think

54:54

right , then that

54:56

funding's coming to an end , we need

54:59

to look at another funding part . We need to . You're

55:01

constantly having to do

55:03

that and it feels like

55:05

having short-term

55:07

funding . The message , that

55:10

message is going back to those people

55:12

and saying this needs to happen quite

55:15

quickly . Come on , this needs

55:17

to happen really quickly , come on

55:19

, what's the next thing ? What's the next thing

55:21

Everything feels quite rushed

55:23

and

55:28

I want to make , I want to see that change

55:30

. I've seen a huge

55:32

shift in

55:34

the interest around this type of work

55:37

. People

55:39

are wanting to do this work . People

55:42

are and artists

55:44

have always been interested . Artists have

55:46

always been working in communities with

55:48

people . That's always been

55:51

happening , but

55:53

I think that's of

55:56

interest to a lot more

55:58

people now . But

56:00

it is who's

56:02

wagging the tail .

56:04

Yeah , so if

56:06

you want that change , is the change

56:09

we need to make to talk and

56:12

provide more evidence to funders and challenge

56:14

their models , and is that

56:16

something that you feel the

56:18

sector is doing enough of ? Do

56:20

we feel they're hearing what actually

56:23

it really takes to have great deep engagement

56:25

for the long-term ? Are they interested

56:27

in hearing that ?

56:29

I think there's interest in hearing it , but

56:33

I think it's going to take time because

56:35

, yes , we

56:37

need to provide the evidence , but

56:41

a lot of the evidence at the moment that we're

56:43

collecting for funders

56:45

is very

56:47

kind of data-driven , and

56:50

I think what we're losing is

56:53

, you know , those

56:56

really meaningful conversations

56:59

and feedback that we get from people as to why

57:01

they don't want to engage , and sometimes

57:03

we don't want to hear that stuff , do we ? You

57:06

know , I think there's pressure

57:09

coming

57:11

. You know all funders have got pressure on

57:13

them . They're

57:16

you know how they're

57:18

funding SIX with policy . So

57:21

I think , ultimately , the changes

57:24

need to come at policy level . You

57:28

know , if we want this

57:30

country to be

57:32

a place where people

57:35

can engage in arts

57:37

and culture it's part of their everyday

57:40

life and it's for everybody we've

57:43

got to get people

57:46

at the very top to understand

57:48

what communities

57:50

are like , what people's lives

57:53

are like . It feels at the minute

57:55

there's such a gap there

57:57

and the cost of living

58:00

crisis . We're working

58:02

every day on

58:05

an estate , in home , through our

58:07

chat shop , and we see how

58:10

people are really struggling . They're

58:13

really , really struggling and we're here

58:16

saying we want to engage you in the arts

58:18

. It's like where that

58:20

becomes so much less of

58:23

a priority . But at the same

58:25

time , we know that those

58:27

same people that are talking to

58:29

us about the situation that they're in and

58:33

it's not just the people that we're trying to engage

58:35

, it's , you know , it's ourselves

58:38

Everybody's

58:40

struggling and

58:46

I think we're not feeling as much

58:48

. We're not feeling at the moment

58:50

uncomfortable about talking about

58:53

arts and culture , because

58:56

the people that are talking about how

58:58

life is difficult and

59:01

the cost of living is difficult

59:03

are the people that have had an experience

59:05

with us and can see the benefit

59:08

of the projects that we're doing

59:10

. There's people coming to us

59:12

and saying you

59:15

got me through lockdown . Having

59:18

a bit of it's been a lifeline for

59:20

me . We've got a hub member who's

59:23

also involved in the shop who

59:26

has said you know , this has

59:28

saved me , it's given me something

59:30

to focus on , whereas my

59:33

experience maybe 20

59:35

years ago was that people would

59:37

say why are you spending money on

59:39

arts and culture when it ought to be going on

59:42

food and electric

59:44

and gas ? Nobody's saying that to us

59:46

. I

59:48

think that message needs

59:51

to get to policymakers and that's

59:54

the challenge that I've got how

59:57

do I bridge that gap ? Through

1:00:01

the hub members , they've

1:00:04

got a voice within our organisation and

1:00:06

a voice within this city . I think the next

1:00:08

step for back to ours is

1:00:12

to share that voice nationally and

1:00:14

it's why I want back to ours . As always

1:00:16

, it's very much about hope . It

1:00:21

is about this place , but it's always looking

1:00:23

out , because

1:00:26

I do think sometimes the power of the work that's going on

1:00:29

in our organisation and lots of

1:00:31

hundreds of other organisations across

1:00:35

this country it's

1:00:37

not recognised .

1:00:38

So I've got

1:00:41

a question for you . What are the misconceptions

1:00:43

around community engagement that

1:00:45

you feel like you want to get off your chest and

1:00:50

tell people about and clear up wadsom for all ?

1:00:54

Well , it's not drifting in , getting what you want and

1:00:57

then buggering off . It's

1:01:01

definitely not that and we can't be doing that . And

1:01:04

if that's needed I don't know when

1:01:06

it would be , but

1:01:11

it might be If somebody is doing something and

1:01:14

they need an opinion of it , just say it , be honest

1:01:16

, say what I need is to

1:01:18

and come to an organisation like ours

1:01:20

. You know , go to . You

1:01:24

know , sometimes I just think we

1:01:27

have to close the door sometimes because

1:01:30

we can up . I don't want to be a gatekeeper

1:01:32

, but that's , and it forces me to be when

1:01:35

people want to do that . We can't just take from

1:01:37

people , you

1:01:39

know . Again , that's not an invitation , is it

1:01:41

? It's

1:01:44

not a nice invitation and we have to

1:01:46

think that we need to be invited

1:01:48

into

1:01:51

those people's spaces

1:01:54

, into their lives . We've got to

1:01:56

respect that .

1:01:56

So , with that and some of the difficulties

1:01:59

, you've spoken about , and the state

1:02:01

of the nation . Why should people want to be invited

1:02:04

? Why should people work in the

1:02:06

arts or particular community engagement

1:02:08

?

1:02:10

Because that's If you do . That's not

1:02:12

going to be . We're not going to make these

1:02:14

changes . We want to

1:02:16

see great

1:02:19

art , great experiences

1:02:21

grow and develop and progress and

1:02:23

more people be involved

1:02:26

the advocates for the arts and , if

1:02:28

you know , if we want a really

1:02:30

thriving arts scene

1:02:32

in this country , that's the work that

1:02:35

we need to do . These are our future

1:02:37

audiences . They're families

1:02:39

that we're now engaging . We've

1:02:42

had hub members come

1:02:45

and work with back two hours and

1:02:47

move on and be

1:02:49

like they've outgrown us , because they're

1:02:51

full , they've really engaged

1:02:53

, they're really interested

1:02:56

and they're taking their families and their

1:02:58

friends to see things

1:03:00

. We've got a lady who

1:03:02

takes people off her estate to go see things

1:03:04

. She's kind of flown our

1:03:09

nest . We've had hub members that have joined people's

1:03:12

boards . So

1:03:14

you think this

1:03:17

is why people need to do

1:03:19

this work .

1:03:21

Are you positive about the future ?

1:03:24

Yeah , you've got to be , haven't

1:03:27

you ? You've got to be positive , and I

1:03:31

am quite a positive person , but

1:03:33

I'm ready for challenge and I'm ready for change

1:03:35

because I like

1:03:38

change . I think change

1:03:40

is good , but I

1:03:43

know that for

1:03:45

some people change isn't great

1:03:48

and people can find

1:03:51

that quite

1:03:53

difficult to deal with

1:03:55

. But , yeah , I

1:03:57

think I'm excited about what's

1:03:59

next . I'm excited about how

1:04:02

policy changes

1:04:06

, how changes in government

1:04:09

changes around funding

1:04:11

on the horizon

1:04:13

. That

1:04:17

is interesting to

1:04:19

see how that will impact on

1:04:22

the work

1:04:24

that we do and to

1:04:26

somehow

1:04:29

be a part of

1:04:31

that bigger picture and to know

1:04:33

that we have given and

1:04:36

we are giving people

1:04:39

a voice within

1:04:42

that . That's

1:04:45

important .

1:04:47

So we're at the point of this conversation

1:04:50

where I ask all my guests

1:04:53

to make a cultural confession

1:04:55

, and I hope you've done your homework and had a think

1:04:57

about what you might want to confess to . And that

1:05:00

could be anything you want , I'm

1:05:03

assuming you have done your homework .

1:05:06

Yeah , of course I have .

1:05:06

Come on , then make the confession .

1:05:09

So my confession is

1:05:12

that I told a

1:05:14

big fat lie during 2017

1:05:17

, which

1:05:19

was that the

1:05:22

secret gig was

1:05:24

not supposed to be a secret gig . The

1:05:27

secret gig was me

1:05:29

not having met

1:05:31

the deadline for

1:05:34

the market in Berkshire .

1:05:35

Wow , how do I

1:05:37

not know ?

1:05:38

about this ?

1:05:40

How do I not know about this ?

1:05:42

Because the good thing

1:05:44

was we were in two separate offices

1:05:46

producers and other

1:05:48

creators that were happening down the road and the programming

1:05:51

and then marketing comms volunteering

1:05:53

different offices down the street so

1:05:56

I had the whole length of that street

1:05:59

to me

1:06:01

up a story as

1:06:03

to why I've not met the deadline

1:06:05

for the first back to hours

1:06:07

festival . That was February

1:06:10

half term 2017 and

1:06:12

the brochure . We wanted it out for

1:06:16

December 2016 , so we thought

1:06:18

people might want to buy tickets

1:06:21

as Christmas presents , that kind of thing , so

1:06:24

we wanted it out . So this will have

1:06:26

been November 2016 and

1:06:28

I programmed everything and I was like

1:06:31

, in the word , one of the exec

1:06:34

producers . I'd given birth to

1:06:36

my first festival

1:06:39

, but there was this gap

1:06:41

. And there was a gap because

1:06:43

I'd had loads of different meetings with different cabaret

1:06:46

promoters and

1:06:48

talked to a lot of different companies

1:06:51

and really wanted

1:06:53

some cabaret in there , because when I played

1:06:55

poker , it was the one thing people were really interested

1:06:58

in it and I'd not managed

1:07:00

to pin everything down . I'd worked with the dates

1:07:02

. It was clashing with quite

1:07:04

a few international festivals and a lot

1:07:06

of the cabaret shows were out of

1:07:09

the country that I was particularly interested in . So

1:07:12

I was like what am I going to ?

1:07:13

do , what am I ?

1:07:14

going to say so , I'd run out of ideas , probably

1:07:16

smoke three fags . I was walking down the street

1:07:18

and then I just thought , just say it's a secret

1:07:20

. So I said it's a secret

1:07:22

. And so I said it's a secret and either

1:07:29

you or maybe Laura

1:07:31

said oh , it's a secret gig . Yeah , a secret

1:07:33

gig .

1:07:35

And it took hold and the legacy

1:07:37

of this thing is we love a secret

1:07:39

gig and they are epic .

1:07:40

We love a secret gig , not done

1:07:42

one for a little while , but , yeah

1:07:44

, people are always asking for a secret

1:07:47

gig and that opens

1:07:49

up loads of avenues . We've

1:07:51

put things on that have really challenged people

1:07:54

and , yeah , it's a great

1:07:56

opportunity for people to see things that they wouldn't normally

1:07:58

get the chance to see , which is great

1:08:02

opportunity . And again , I love

1:08:04

to do that . I love to surprise people with some

1:08:06

things , so they're in an environment that they're really comfortable

1:08:09

. So the secret things happened in

1:08:11

social clubs worked

1:08:14

with two social clubs in the city and

1:08:16

they were really open to the different acts

1:08:18

that we were putting

1:08:20

on , and people kind of took

1:08:22

hold . And

1:08:24

one element of it where we'd put on some

1:08:26

retro comedians and people always expected

1:08:29

to get quite a well known

1:08:31

comedian there and I thought , well

1:08:33

, that's interesting because we can surround that with lots

1:08:35

of other types of performers , which we did . But

1:08:38

yeah , it came from a

1:08:40

lie , it came from a massive lie

1:08:43

, but yeah , it worked . Do you know what , though ? Sometimes

1:08:45

you just have to go with things , don't you

1:08:47

know ? I think it's roll a bit and

1:08:50

make sense . Sometimes you are making sense

1:08:52

of things afterwards , after the fact

1:08:54

.

1:08:56

Brilliant and our former

1:08:58

colleagues are going to be finding this out , and I

1:09:00

can't wait for the WhatsApp exchange

1:09:02

about . Did you know ?

1:09:04

She lied .

1:09:05

It was a lie , but what an

1:09:07

extraordinary outcome

1:09:10

, because secret gigs play a big part

1:09:12

in the legacy

1:09:15

of back to ours and for me , the one I came

1:09:17

to you with Off the Boulevard I've

1:09:19

still got my membership , which cost me three

1:09:21

quid a year . Brilliant

1:09:24

, lou . Thank

1:09:26

you so much for doing this interview with me

1:09:29

. We could have carried on for hours and hours now

1:09:31

, because we normally do , I know .

1:09:33

I just go off on tangents though I just ramble

1:09:35

into a mad woman . I think sometimes a

1:09:38

lot of the work I do is very much in

1:09:40

my head and it's hard to sometimes

1:09:43

prize out .

1:09:44

Well , I think we've got a lot from this conversation

1:09:46

and I've

1:09:48

definitely learned a lot more about you , and thank you

1:09:51

for doing what you do . The

1:09:53

work is great and you're amazing , and

1:09:55

thank you for talking to me again Thank

1:10:00

you . Thanks for listening to this episode of Before the Applause

1:10:02

. Please do tell everyone about this podcast

1:10:05

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1:10:07

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1:10:09

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1:10:12

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1:10:14

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1:10:16

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1:10:23

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