0:02

Welcome to this new episode of Before the

0:04

Applause with me , your host , david Watson

0:06

. In

0:09

this episode , I'm joined by Tara Safar

0:11

, a visionary costume and creature

0:13

puppet creator , whose work you've

0:15

, without doubt , seen on the smallest of screens in your hands

0:18

, in your living room , on the TV

0:20

, at the cinema or even up close and

0:22

personal in our much loved characters , and perhaps

0:24

in stadiums and arenas as part

0:26

of iconic moments in the world's cultural

0:29

calendar . She's more than just a costume maker , but

0:32

an inspiring creative leader , practitioner

0:34

and educator . I've became Faheemah's

0:36

protect , investing and celebrate our unique

0:38

creative industries . She

0:41

challenges the possibilities of costume and

0:43

poetry making through innovative practice

0:45

, finding new ways to make the impossible

0:47

possible . Looking to the worlds of science

0:49

and engineering to give us hair-raising

0:51

, spine shivering , heart wrenching and

0:53

the wondrous , magical moments creating memories

0:55

and connections that last a lifetime . Grab

0:58

a cup of something nice and join us as we discover

1:00

more . Before the applause Tara

1:04

, welcome to the show . Thank you very

1:07

much . Part of

1:09

the purpose of this podcast is to talk to

1:11

multi-talented people

1:13

from across the industry lots of different

1:15

experience and I first met you in 2012

1:18

or 2011 when we worked on the opening

1:21

closing ceremonies , and I was in

1:23

awe of what you did and your

1:25

career up until then and

1:27

then afterwards , and I just think you have an

1:29

extraordinary perspective of

1:31

the true meaning of this podcast

1:34

and what happened before the applause . So I've been

1:36

really excited that you agreed to do

1:38

this . So thank you very much for coming on .

1:40

Oh well that , what a lovely thing to say

1:42

. I'm honoured and it's lovely

1:44

to be part of this

1:46

community that you're bringing together , so

1:48

thank you .

1:49

So obviously I know you a bit , but let's

1:52

, for our listeners , talk a bit

1:54

more about you . So could you just tell us a little bit

1:56

how your career started in this area

1:59

and some of the highlights of the things you've worked

2:01

on and where you are today ?

2:03

Sure , so well

2:06

, I've been in the industry

2:08

quite a number of

2:10

years now and I

2:13

started off as studying

2:16

theatre design at Central

2:19

St Martin's it was actually Central School of Art

2:21

and Design then , and

2:23

in fact I came from a theatre

2:25

family . Dum

2:28

, dum , dum . My

2:30

mother was originally a

2:33

dancer she was a ballet and my dad was a choreographer

2:35

from America a dancer

2:37

. I came over with

2:39

West Side Story actually , which is pretty

2:42

cool in the late 50s . So I

2:46

was always keen on making things

2:48

and doing things and studying

2:51

a broad

2:53

spectrum of things . I really enjoyed

2:56

English history , music

2:58

, all of that thing , and it was like what can

3:00

I find that can incorporate

3:03

all of that ? And theatre

3:05

design was

3:07

that thing . It combined all

3:09

of these different creative genres

3:12

and brought it together in one

3:14

piece of live action performance

3:17

which I really loved . So I did that and

3:21

I was very lucky at the time

3:24

when I graduated

3:26

to be

3:28

there when musicals in the West End

3:30

were getting huge amount

3:32

of musicals going on . I

3:35

worked on the original Phantom

3:37

of the Opera as a costume buyer and I

3:40

was doing all of those sort of early

3:42

jobbing , assisting people

3:44

I did . My first assistant

3:46

costume design was for Wars of the Roses

3:48

, which was the English Shakespeare story

3:51

. They did seven Shakespeare's

3:53

history plays in one weekend and

3:55

I was assistant to costume

3:58

designer and then buyer . So I did roles

4:00

like that while I was gaining

4:02

my experience as

4:05

a designer myself , which

4:07

I did . So I worked in theatre a lot theatre

4:10

design , set-sign , costume but

4:13

as my design jobs got bigger

4:15

, I got known more for doing costume

4:18

and then for doing more

4:20

complicated costume because apart

4:23

from my theatre head , I've got a big kind of

4:26

geeky let's be honest , a bit of a sci-fi

4:28

head with me and

4:32

I loved things like Star Trek and Star

4:34

Wars and all of that sort of thing and I was

4:36

fascinated by that side

4:39

of costume performance

4:42

making people into

4:44

different things . So

4:46

I started

4:48

doing more . I did a lot of opera work

4:51

designing but I got asked

4:53

to do a film

4:55

and

4:58

supervise a film

5:00

. It was in Norway and

5:03

I

5:05

was really excited about doing it so

5:07

I did that . I then went on to work

5:10

for the Jim Henson Creature Shop in

5:12

Camden where

5:15

I was involved with fabrication

5:19

and creating things for

5:21

some films there . So then obviously the

5:23

Muppet people and

5:26

worked on like Never Ending 3

5:28

, creating some

5:30

characters for that . So I started doing

5:32

more technical costumes

5:34

, making people into creatures

5:38

, aliens . I did

5:40

lots of spacesuits . So I started doing work

5:43

on sci-fi films like Lost

5:45

in Space , developing spacesuits

5:47

. So it

5:49

was still very much costume . It was where

5:51

I came from . But I

5:53

was able to really explore

5:56

the kind of performance side

5:58

of getting people to look like different things

6:00

, whether they might be creatures

6:03

or whether they might be puppets

6:06

, and for me it's all

6:08

about kind of like the ergonomics of changing

6:10

a body . I got very excited by

6:13

that and I also loved the technical

6:15

side . So my geeky part

6:17

of my brain was being satisfied

6:19

by all of the mechanics and animatronics

6:22

and electronics , the use of different

6:24

materials , exploring

6:26

different materials , which you didn't get to

6:28

do , maybe in theatre . So

6:31

that was just

6:33

really exciting . So I

6:36

started doing more film

6:38

work and from

6:40

theatre I kind of moved across from

6:43

doing blockbuster films and I worked

6:45

on some great things like Fifth Element

6:47

and more recently

6:51

like Star Wars 7 , which was

6:53

the one when obviously

6:55

everyone came back Harrison

6:58

Ford , kerry Fisher , they were all there helping

7:01

and that was not in a Supervisory

7:03

role , that was in a making role , which

7:05

was quite different from me at

7:07

that point in my career . So I've

7:10

got a

7:13

lot of anxiety , but

7:15

basically I did

7:17

a lot of things like that spacesuits

7:20

and things like supervising teams

7:22

, bringing the spoke teams together

7:24

to create something extraordinary

7:26

. So

7:30

at that point I was freelance , going

7:33

from job to job , like either working for the Jim

7:35

Richard shop or working for

7:37

Disney or Go-Mont

7:39

or different companies working on

7:43

different films

7:45

, and then somewhere

7:49

the theatre part of me

7:51

got

7:54

introduced to doing ceremonies . I

7:56

got introduced to do the Commonwealth

7:58

Games in Manchester

8:01

in 2002 and

8:05

that was the first ceremony I did

8:07

, because some

8:09

people could see that I'd done a lot of

8:11

live theatre and I'd

8:13

done a lot of film and TV

8:16

because , also by that point , I'd done

8:18

quite a lot of commercials , pop

8:20

promos and commercials . They

8:23

were kind of big at that time and you'd

8:25

be working with Blur

8:28

or working with Lady Gaga

8:30

later down the line and people like that . So it was

8:32

kind of a big time for

8:35

commercials and

8:38

TV

8:40

work and somebody , I

8:42

think , kind of put all

8:45

the things together and went well . Actually

8:47

she could be really good to head up costume

8:49

for a ceremony , because

8:53

a ceremony is a live event , isn't

8:56

it ? It's a live event but in front of

8:58

80,000 people

9:01

and it's a televised event in front

9:03

of billions of people , and

9:05

so you've got to do

9:08

the attention to detail that you would do for a TV programme

9:10

or a film , a

9:13

very personal film

9:15

that you're telling kind of very close up , but

9:18

you're also telling a very bold story

9:20

that can be understood by people in the

9:24

space , you know , in the arena , in

9:28

the kind of watching

9:30

it live because it is

9:32

. You're having to tell two stories

9:35

simultaneously one which is the big

9:37

and one which is the very private

9:40

, delicate moment . So , anyway

9:42

, so I got asked to do that

9:44

in Manchester in 2002

9:47

and that was my first ceremony

9:49

, but

9:53

, interestingly , I decided

9:55

not to continue on that ceremony

9:58

path because I'm

10:01

very , very lucky . I get asked

10:03

to do lots of very , very work

10:06

and lots of people can't

10:08

get the noggin round the fact

10:10

that why would one moment I want

10:12

to work on the opening

10:14

ceremony of the London Olympics

10:16

in 2012 and the next

10:18

moment I'd be developing a

10:21

kids TV programme

10:24

for BBC

10:27

Worldwide ? Why would I want to

10:29

jump ? How does my career make any sense

10:31

? But for me , my

10:34

career makes complete sense because I'm working

10:36

on with people

10:38

who are like the best of their game and

10:41

I'm lucky enough to be asked to

10:43

get involved with all these cool projects . So

10:46

for me it's actually one

10:48

experience feeds the other , and one

10:51

use of technology something

10:53

I've learnt in maybe making

10:56

a kind of what appears

10:58

to be quite a kind of hand-in-glove

11:02

puppet in fact might

11:04

harness some technology that was developed

11:06

from NASA . So I

11:09

get to do all of these things and I'm

11:11

really lucky . I'm so lucky and

11:13

I love those .

11:15

It's incredible . It's so incredible and

11:17

what it's really interesting as

11:19

well , because you've kind of described really well the progress

11:22

and the change in the industry and one

11:24

of my questions was around how

11:26

do you get that intimacy of storytelling

11:28

for camera versus a stadium and

11:32

I'm really interested to find out , because I know that you've

11:34

built the teams around you how do you transition

11:36

makers and designers

11:39

into that when they

11:41

may not have really had

11:43

that exposure , because they are

11:45

very different , aren't they ? They are quite

11:47

the extreme , especially now with 4K

11:49

cameras and all the whizzy technology . I

11:52

just wondered , from your career , how

11:54

do you guide people into that when you bring these

11:56

teams together ?

11:58

So I always you know you

12:01

want to employ the best

12:03

that you can . The

12:05

best that you can doesn't necessarily

12:07

mean they are the people who

12:09

have been doing it

12:12

all of their lives . The best

12:14

that you can might be people who

12:16

you know have got the potential to

12:19

do something different but have never

12:21

been given the opportunity . And

12:23

I do see my house style very

12:25

much being

12:27

what you can see in people and bringing

12:30

it out of them . And I

12:32

think if you've got a vision of what you want to

12:34

create and

12:36

that you get

12:39

the right people together , of

12:42

all different levels you know

12:45

, in their career paths they don't

12:47

all need to be senior people . You

12:50

do need a spattering of people . You can't

12:52

just have one or just have the other . But

12:54

if you get all these kind of people in their

12:56

different roles

12:59

, different pitches in their lives

13:01

and experiences , you kind

13:03

of get the best out of people . I think the mixture

13:06

of a working team

13:08

is what makes

13:10

it work . I think I've seen some teams

13:12

that can be very cliquey and they've been doing

13:14

it forever . Sometimes that can

13:16

get , that can get a bit . We

13:19

do it like this or oh no

13:21

, well , you know , we don't , we haven't really done

13:23

that we're not . We don't do it that way , and

13:25

I think the the kind

13:27

of mixing it up is is part of what I

13:29

really get very excited about . I get

13:32

very excited about showing

13:37

people what they can do in

13:39

terms of being brave

13:41

with their work and and also teaching and

13:43

education . And

13:45

educating people to

13:47

get in making either making

13:50

things or creating things is kind of really

13:52

what I , I'm , I'm , I

13:54

do on a daily basis . So

13:57

I get

13:59

very involved with getting graduates

14:01

to work with me , because now I run

14:03

I do work freelance

14:06

as well , but I run my own business and

14:08

I get graduates to work with me and I train them up

14:10

and I've been doing that for years . You know

14:13

, you give them , they give you a few years , and

14:15

you give them a few years and

14:17

then you sort of set them on the water

14:20

and sort of push them off and then

14:22

they're off doing their own thing in the

14:24

industry , and I

14:26

find that really really

14:29

rewarding . Actually , there's

14:31

there's a time , I

14:33

think , in your life when

14:36

you go from being competitive

14:38

, maybe with peers or maybe

14:40

with people

14:43

that you're slightly jealous of . So when

14:45

you get a bit older , you kind

14:47

of go I don't need to do

14:49

that anymore .

14:51

Yeah . Was there

14:53

a specific thing for you that when that happened

14:56

? Is there a specific job or a

14:58

moment where you felt that

15:00

was the time where you didn't need to be kind

15:03

of driven in that in that way

15:05

?

15:05

Actually , I think the

15:08

, the confidence that

15:10

I got with the Olympics

15:12

, doing the London 2012

15:15

Olympics and Paralympic

15:17

ceremonies so , for ceremonies , I think the

15:19

confidence that I got from that

15:21

and what I learned from that and

15:24

and and , then the need

15:27

to operate in a particular way

15:29

because there was no other way to do it

15:31

, did teach

15:33

me an awful lot . So I don't think

15:35

I was the only one that got a legacy

15:38

out of out of that ceremony . You

15:40

know , I did it . Sure

15:43

, I headed up the same role 10

15:46

years before in Manchester , but

15:48

I wasn't . That was the first one

15:50

I've done and I didn't quite

15:52

. I

15:55

was a different person in 2012 . Let's

15:57

just put it that way . I think I'm far

15:59

more because I'm far more company . You know

16:01

, I always , I always say

16:03

that when you're the

16:06

difference between being zero

16:08

years old and 25 year old and

16:10

you look at the difference , you know what

16:13

a difference between a zero and

16:15

the 25 year old , 25

16:18

year old and 50 year old . There

16:20

is the same difference . There

16:23

is the same difference . It's not . It's just

16:25

not so visible . Yeah , all

16:27

it . People perceive it as gray hairs and lines

16:30

.

16:30

But actually no , it's not .

16:32

It's if you've , if you've really kind of

16:34

given your head some

16:37

opportunity to grow in

16:40

one way , whatever that might be , you

16:43

you've , you've changed radically and

16:46

you know , from 5050

16:48

to 75 , you

16:50

know that's why you've got those Jedi masters

16:53

, you know . Come to the panda , you know , got

16:55

the little red panda who's very wise , haven't you

16:57

, and he's , he's got that

16:59

. He's got another 25 on top

17:01

of what we've got . So

17:04

so you know , age

17:06

does help with

17:09

that , but I do think the the

17:11

enormity of the project really

17:14

enabled

17:16

you . You had to , you had

17:18

to get your neural networks

17:21

going and really rely

17:23

on your brain and

17:26

your gut To work

17:28

, and I think that that's what I learned and

17:30

it was a big takeaway from that , that gig

17:32

.

17:34

Has there ever been a moment where you

17:36

never thought you would have the career that you've

17:38

got now ?

17:40

Um , no , I

17:44

did . If I had , if I had my

17:46

time again , I

17:48

may have gone in a different

17:50

direction . So have

17:52

my parents not been in the theater with

17:55

the interest that I had when I was younger and

17:58

I would have done something

18:00

really bonkers , like drawing

18:04

, like NASA or or some

18:06

kind of space space thing , and

18:09

there I'd be making spacesuits

18:11

like I have done all my life , but

18:13

for real . I'd

18:16

love to have done that and I think that's

18:18

not a very left to feel

18:20

side step . It's

18:23

not a big side step for me to have done that , because

18:26

the people that I work with on a daily basis

18:28

, you know the people who are extraordinary

18:31

mechanics and extraordinary electronic

18:34

geniuses but they

18:36

just like , like working

18:38

in the field of entertainment and not and

18:41

not rocket science or , you

18:43

know , dealing with kind

18:46

of scary . I did this , I did

18:48

this amazing . I was going to get

18:50

involved with something with Virgin Galactic

18:52

Some

18:55

time ago and I had a meeting

18:58

and the NDA

19:00

for the meeting was one of the most fun

19:03

NDAs I've ever

19:05

had to sign which was about my company , and

19:08

it included things like do I have a

19:10

nuclear storage

19:12

facility in my onsite

19:14

? You know things like that that you

19:16

had to kind of explain whether you did

19:19

or you didn't , and it was like I'm

19:21

just going to be doing some model making for you .

19:24

Wonderful , the whole different

19:27

world .

19:29

Yeah , but it was yeah , so

19:32

that would have been the only , the only thing

19:34

I would have .

19:35

I would have possibly done different and

19:39

in terms I think , like a lot of my guests have been talking

19:41

about the change we're going through and the sector

19:43

that has been through Like

19:46

, how have you stayed relevant

19:48

with changing

19:51

times and expectations

19:53

and expectations quite a difficult

19:55

thing to manage , isn't it ? Navigating the

19:57

industry , and , particularly when you start working with some

19:59

of the huge names that you've worked with , how

20:01

do you manage that expectation and manage

20:04

the change and the demand that gets put on an

20:06

individual designer or maker or a team

20:08

?

20:10

I think . I think there's the

20:12

difference . I've noticed more , in

20:15

actual fact , has been in the last

20:17

year .

20:18

Okay .

20:19

Strangely not not

20:22

three years , like many

20:24

people say with COVID that

20:27

was a different deal

20:29

. We were

20:31

in so much as we were all kind

20:34

of put in the same boat and but

20:37

it gave a lot of companies strangely

20:40

an amazing moment to

20:42

take stock and think

20:44

about what they want to do , how

20:47

they want to operate . So there's been a . There

20:49

was the COVID shift . But

20:52

the COVID shift was was mainly

20:54

to do with do we want to function

20:56

? Do we want the structure of

20:58

our company to function like this ? Do we

21:00

want the premises of our company to function

21:02

like this ? Do we want to

21:05

shift how we're creating content

21:07

? People at home and they're watching

21:09

television and in that

21:11

the cinematic

21:15

television side

21:17

, content side that has changed hugely because we've

21:19

got all of the companies

21:23

wanting to get content

21:25

that we can all watch from our

21:27

sofas . So there was

21:29

a shift with that and that

21:31

was great . We

21:33

all benefited dramatically from that

21:36

because suddenly it

21:38

was like jobs , were every

21:40

film was starting , everything was starting

21:42

at the same time , like August , I suppose

21:44

. What was that ? Or not last

21:47

August , august 22

21:49

. I think it's always 22 . Usually

21:52

like film start and

21:54

kind of in stepping stones , you've got one starting

21:57

one month and one starting another month . Everything

22:00

started at the same time . So

22:03

we had this extraordinary thing that everything started

22:06

. So crew created

22:10

these things like costume makers or

22:13

editors or camera

22:15

team , pops people , art department

22:17

. They were all starting everyone

22:19

at the same time . And that was when

22:21

we had this big migration from people

22:24

in theatre who still were struggling

22:26

as theatres were , still it was disaster

22:29

in theatre or moved across

22:31

to film

22:34

and TV . So we had this big shift

22:36

in talent away from live

22:39

theatre , which was awful

22:41

. So everyone packed

22:44

up and went off to all the kind of Netflix and Amazon

22:47

productions and all those kind of things and

22:50

it was great . But

22:53

then all those companies , they created all the content

22:55

that they needed and

22:57

they just have gone recently . Oh

22:59

, actually we don't need any more content

23:01

for a bit , we're just going to take our foot

23:04

off the break and

23:06

all of a sudden , all of the people

23:08

who had been had

23:12

moved across . They're all going . Oh , and now

23:14

there's writer's strike and all that sort of thing . They're

23:16

all kind of migrating back to theatre again

23:18

. So there's that , but

23:21

there's also people haven't

23:23

got the money that they had . So this has

23:25

been a big shift , I think , in the last six

23:28

months . So we had the kind of COVID thing

23:30

. We've now got this

23:33

hard times

23:35

in the industry

23:37

, in theatre , in film , you

23:40

know , every project is like the

23:42

budget gets smaller and smaller

23:44

. The crews they're

23:46

wanting a smaller crews , they haven't

23:48

got as much budget it's

23:50

. It's quite tough at the moment actually

23:53

creating content under

23:55

so many restrictions and

23:59

and I think everyone , everyone's having quite

24:02

a hard time and not quite realising

24:04

that everyone else is in having that

24:06

hard time . So so

24:09

I think that's quite difficult .

24:11

Yeah , and I think everybody's feeling the

24:14

change , which is beyond the pandemic

24:16

and I think it is around . People

24:20

still want the same level of quality

24:22

and output and the volume of said content

24:24

, but unless budgets and

24:26

you know , I suppose shrunken teams

24:29

, they . Actually the demand you know people

24:31

are talking about is they also want it quicker , yeah

24:33

, and they've ever wanted it before . I

24:35

suppose one of the things that I've been talking to some guests

24:37

around is some of the more

24:40

positive things that have come out in the challenges and

24:42

that is actually this trans idea of transferable

24:44

skills , taking a chance and

24:46

going for it , Because ultimately

24:49

we have no choice and some of our colleagues

24:51

and you know friends and in the industry

24:53

don't have a choice , but everybody's describing

24:55

it as really tough and I suppose my follow

24:57

up question to that is what concerns

25:00

do you have if this keeps going the way

25:02

that it is on your particular you

25:05

know area and where you work

25:07

? Can you see anything

25:09

happening with this to the sector ? I

25:12

suppose something to worry about , or is there any positives

25:15

?

25:16

I think it's . I do think it's really

25:18

it's really tough , and particularly actually because

25:20

I run my own business . I'm those

25:23

tighter timelines , smaller

25:25

budgets is raising

25:28

, raising prices of everything else . So

25:31

you know you've got rates

25:33

, business rates going up , you've got rents , you've

25:35

got materials , things

25:39

that you're having a struggle

25:41

trying to get a hold of materials . At the moment

25:43

it's difficult and I'm

25:45

it is quite frustrating

25:48

. You know when

25:50

the betting shop thing is when the funds stop

25:52

, stop .

25:54

Yep , absolutely .

25:57

And so , and

26:00

it's like come on , guys , we the

26:03

reason we're doing this . Why

26:05

are we doing this ? We're doing this

26:07

to give people

26:09

entertainment . We're

26:12

giving , we're giving , wanting to give people

26:14

an extraordinary experience

26:16

. We're wanting to

26:18

share something that

26:22

hadn't necessarily been thought about

26:24

before . We're wanting to

26:26

do all of these sort of things , and

26:29

we've got to remember that that's

26:31

what it's about and

26:34

try and make it , make the fun bit

26:36

, come back into it .

26:38

Yeah , the fun is important .

26:40

I think the . I

26:43

think we also sometimes make

26:45

it harder than we need to , and

26:48

that work , because when

26:50

everyone's got their back against the wall because

26:52

if a producer's got their back against the

26:54

wall because they haven't got the money or

26:58

they haven't got the time and they're

27:00

bringing creatives in , the

27:03

creatives want to create something

27:05

really good they don't

27:07

they can . I think people

27:09

need to be less nervous about

27:11

being honest and

27:14

I think that's sometimes where things can

27:16

fail because they're so nervous

27:19

about giving a bad news or something like

27:21

that . You just go well , can't just tell

27:23

us . Or , if you want me to

27:25

do this job , tell me , tell

27:27

me what you've got . Don't go oh

27:29

, what's your rate or what's this . It

27:32

doesn't just tell me , be

27:34

honest , it just cuts out the . You

27:37

know that whole

27:39

emotional anxiety doesn't

27:41

need to factor into anybody's life at

27:43

all . We don't need to carry it around with

27:45

us , we need to sort it out . So

27:48

I do see quite a lot of

27:50

my role as being trying

27:52

to be the one to not carry it

27:54

around and just try and sort it out , and

27:57

I find myself being more involved . I

28:00

think I'm also known for being involved . So

28:02

I'm not just a

28:05

, I'm not just a costume person . What

28:09

I bring to

28:11

a job , you

28:13

know you can there's amazing costume

28:16

supervisor . You know I'm not I don't

28:18

call myself a costume supervisor but

28:24

I think I bring a head of costume

28:26

. I

28:30

think I bring an experience of all the other levels of production

28:33

as part of my package . That is

28:35

kind of broader than being

28:40

just a costume person . But also I think I

28:42

bring I've got

28:44

like a business head on me because I've

28:47

run my own business and I've also

28:49

done things with very big budgets , you know , but

28:54

creating a budget for four ceremonies

28:56

, a staffing thing for four ceremonies and all of that sort

28:58

of thing , that's

29:06

, that's . That's quite a lot of Excel spreadsheets , yeah . So

29:11

it's kind of like you have to use your

29:13

head in a different way is my geeky head comes and and is part of

29:16

what kind of I do . So

29:20

what I try and do

29:22

in all of these awful scenarios

29:24

, when you haven't got any money , you haven't got any

29:26

time , and you haven't got this and you haven't

29:28

got that , you go try not to make it not fun , but

29:36

trying to keep that fun . And I think we do

29:38

need to just remember what , why

29:40

we're all doing this and what the end product is , which is to give

29:42

someone a wonderful experience .

29:46

So , yeah , yeah , it's

29:48

fascinating and you kind of took it

29:50

from it before , and you and you've generously discussed why

29:52

we're doing this and it's for other people

29:54

. So

30:01

my question is around why are you

30:03

doing it ? What are you getting out of it

30:05

? What is driving you

30:07

? And you know you've done so many extraordinary projects and

30:09

I will make sure there's a link to your website and you can find the link

30:11

to that . There's a link to your website and your socials in

30:14

all this , because just it's extraordinary

30:16

. What keeps you going ? And one

30:19

in more and why do you do it ?

30:22

I have been born with a busy

30:24

gene and I can't

30:27

. What's

30:29

that busy gene from being busy

30:31

? So there's that . So , and

30:34

I love working with people

30:36

. I love it . It

30:39

really gets me excited . I wake

30:41

up in the morning I'm an early

30:43

riser , I wake up in the morning and

30:46

even if it's a chat , I do look forward

30:48

to the day ahead of meeting

30:51

the people that I'm meeting and working

30:53

with the people that I'm working with . I

30:56

love it . I love people and I'm

30:58

that's the . That's yeah

31:01

. So that is something I

31:05

really the training people up

31:07

, getting training someone and

31:09

showing them things that they

31:11

haven't thought about doing , or

31:13

having an experience that you know

31:15

in their lives of what their career path

31:17

could be . That gets me

31:19

very excited . And

31:21

and also just creating something

31:24

content , some content of something

31:26

, be it a be a kid

31:28

show , be it a TV

31:30

show , a commercial , a film or

31:33

a theater live experience is

31:35

just fantastic , isn't it ? You know we're

31:38

so lucky , so

31:40

really lucky , and

31:42

we get to meet all these fantastic

31:44

people . You know what's not to

31:46

love .

31:49

It's extraordinary . Extraordinary and

31:52

in terms of your

31:55

career . Is there anything that you

31:57

still haven't had the opportunity

31:59

to try and do yet , that you're

32:01

really gunning for , that you're willing to

32:03

share with us ?

32:05

Oh , so I had

32:08

, I had , I had a

32:10

slight brush with a kind of maybe

32:12

joining a big company to

32:15

do some

32:17

leadership on that . I

32:20

do like leading big teams . I

32:22

really do like leading big teams . It's

32:24

very exciting and also

32:27

I really enjoy kind of creating

32:30

kind of a

32:32

safe place for people to work with a , with

32:34

a kind of vision of what they're doing and all that sort of thing

32:36

. But one thing I haven't done is being

32:38

able , on a

32:41

larger scale , to look at something

32:43

that would be five-year

32:46

plan or a 10-year plan and

32:48

maybe seeing that into fruition

32:50

A long

32:53

project , you know , even with the Olympics . So

32:55

we produced 23,000

32:57

costumes for the London

32:59

Olympic and Paralympic ceremonies . So

33:02

that's one costume , that's

33:05

one complete outfit

33:07

.

33:07

Triggered .

33:09

So it's one complete outfit for

33:11

65 years

33:13

. You could wear a new outfit for 65

33:16

years . You'd have to start aged

33:18

, because the youngest cast member was about age seven

33:20

or eight . So when you're seven or eight

33:23

, you would be wearing

33:25

one of our clothes every day until

33:28

you're in your late , you know

33:30

, late late 70s , early 80s

33:32

, bonkers . So

33:36

you know , yeah , that's big , but

33:38

having something that would be so

33:40

yeah , I was on that for , sorry , what I was going to say . I

33:43

was on that for a year

33:45

and three quarters and

33:48

that was wonderful because you could really

33:51

plan things and

33:53

all of that and I would . I would still

33:55

. I would still really like to be involved

33:58

with something kind of quite large

34:00

and that had that

34:02

lead time of planning would

34:06

be really exciting . It

34:09

needn't be kind of all the time , but

34:11

starting something and

34:13

then watching it grow and then also watching

34:15

it develop and planning something

34:17

for the development of it . I'd

34:20

love that I don't know what it is .

34:22

You had it here first folks job offers

34:24

available .

34:27

Yeah , maybe I build a house .

34:28

Oh yes .

34:29

I should just , maybe I should just do that instead

34:32

, so

34:35

that , yeah , I'd love to do that , I'd love to do something like

34:37

that . But just a treat

34:39

. You know , I'm working . I'm working again

34:41

with Danny Boyle at the moment on

34:44

for

34:46

a live dance piece

34:48

called

34:50

free your mind in Manchester with

34:53

factory international , and that's like that's

34:55

lovely , it's really lovely

34:57

.

34:57

You know , there's such nice people and working

34:59

with him again is is

35:02

a complete treat actually fascinating

35:04

and what something that I

35:08

think that I've been exploring as well with some

35:10

of my guests is around , I suppose

35:12

, the evolution of respect for what we do

35:14

as all those people behind the scenes

35:17

. You know , I've

35:19

worked with lots of organizations that have costume

35:21

departments and designers .

35:23

Have you seen a shift in the way that you're

35:25

in the room and I think you've kind of already started explaining

35:28

that about by you being strategic and

35:32

a different level or

35:34

kind of value placed on your trade

35:36

and your expertise , as

35:38

opposed to this is what we want Deliver

35:41

it costume departments

35:44

, sadly , are still considered

35:46

cost cottage industries

35:49

and

35:51

and vocational

35:54

things and , interestingly

35:57

, even when , when so the department

35:59

we were all checking in and getting our our

36:01

passes and on

36:05

the passes for some

36:07

said wardrobe , and the person handing

36:10

the pass out said oh , you know

36:12

, do you do that ? So is that

36:14

? You know ? What do you do , what do you normally do , what's

36:16

your usual job , but you're doing , you're doing on this

36:18

is like no , no , this is my

36:20

profession and

36:23

I think the . I think the issue is for

36:26

costume , the

36:29

, the . It's still seen as

36:31

a kind of a small

36:33

industry and it's not . You

36:35

know , it's

36:37

like preschool things . You know

36:40

people go oh , you know , you're doing a

36:42

preschool show . It's

36:44

, it's a billion million noise

36:46

, not billion , but it's million , pound , million pound

36:48

budget . Yeah you know you , it's

36:50

, it's big industry , it's the show

36:53

, it's the books , it's

36:55

the DVDs , it's the streaming

36:57

, it's the website

36:59

, it's the show . You

37:02

know it's huge . You

37:04

know the book deal alone or the any any

37:06

of those in , and it's worldwide and

37:09

and so that sort of thing

37:11

. I do get really fed up with about

37:15

that and also I do get , I

37:17

think , the pay rates of people within my

37:20

department is low and that

37:22

gets me annoyed . I always insist

37:24

on parity . You know what ? What

37:26

are the other departments , what's the parity between

37:29

that ? And sadly it's a it

37:31

, you know , often female lead , female

37:35

department , and then you're

37:37

all getting paid the worst . So

37:39

, come on , guys , we've been doing this , having

37:41

these conversations , since

37:43

forever . So I'm really

37:45

, I really try and want

37:47

to present departments that I head

37:49

up as as

37:52

really like on a par with any

37:54

other departments . They can hold their

37:56

head up high and they do , and

37:59

everyone just goes oh , your team are really good

38:01

at the year , they completely rock . Yeah , they do because

38:04

they're professionals . They're not , we're

38:06

not like yeah

38:08

, everyone can sew , has got probably got

38:10

needle and thread at home , but

38:12

doesn't mean that you can do it

38:14

professionally . So I

38:17

I think there that is

38:19

a shame that that's still . That's still the case

38:21

in this at this time . You

38:24

know , you just thought we'd have got a bit better by now

38:26

, but we haven't really .

38:28

And , in addition to parity of pay

38:30

, what are some of the real tangible

38:32

things that we all can

38:35

do that work collaboratively across

38:37

the industry to elevate design

38:39

of costume and those people that work

38:41

in it ? What ? What are the practical things we

38:43

could advocate for to

38:46

help move it forward ? Because you're right , and

38:48

I've had very similar conversations to

38:50

with other individuals about their sector

38:52

kind of specialism and they're

38:54

sick to the back teeth of it and a lot of

38:56

what I'm trying to achieve with this podcast

38:58

is let's stop talking about it and let's

39:00

create or let's take action . So

39:03

what would you say we would need to focus on and

39:05

we could do to help this ?

39:07

Well , I think we're , we , naturally

39:09

, I think we're , we're as a group

39:11

of , as a group of artists

39:13

, we're , we're all seen

39:15

at . I , my

39:17

individual , I'm an individual , but

39:19

actually you know , really

39:22

, if

39:24

you , if you have a single musician

39:27

playing , there

39:30

might get one deal , if you've got

39:32

an orchestra playing with all

39:34

of those people , they've got a good

39:36

union . You know , so I

39:39

, that it's

39:41

joining together . You know

39:43

, I have to admit that , back back

39:45

to the

39:47

costume division in back to is fantastic

39:51

and they're really working hard

39:53

to create some

39:55

really good guidelines for employees

39:57

, like like you would with equity . You

40:00

know , you know where you are with an equity

40:02

contract . People know it's

40:04

a safe , it's a safe place to do . I know

40:06

I mentioned safe quite often but

40:08

it People

40:10

need , you know , need these kind of parameters

40:13

, working parameters , to , to

40:15

, to create jobs out of , and

40:18

so they're doing that . And I think I

40:20

think whenever we get together Societies

40:24

or you know that a theater , designers

40:26

and all of those sort of thing People are always

40:28

like blown away on on how fantastic

40:30

it is . But we tend , do tend

40:32

to do a lot independently and

40:36

I think I think that's a

40:38

that's a shame , you know you look

40:40

at some of those really

40:42

brilliant articles

40:45

that , like Sonia Freeman , put out during

40:47

COVID through lockdown

40:50

, about the , the

40:52

back end of of

40:54

what the theater industry

40:57

does for cities

40:59

and for communities the

41:01

hotels , the restaurants , the

41:03

. You know you go into Covent Garden

41:05

and into Soho and places like that and

41:08

you see everywhere busy

41:10

when they're going to theater

41:12

, coming out of theater , you know

41:14

people , people don't appreciate

41:16

the , the

41:19

benefits of what those industries

41:21

bring to cultures and societies

41:24

and communities . Yeah , it's

41:26

, it's it's it's quite

41:28

difficult times and I think I

41:31

hope it's going to , we're

41:34

going to come up with a wonderful solution . Maybe , david

41:36

, you could , you could relate

41:38

everyone's views and

41:41

then and then we'll produce an article on

41:43

it and we could , we

41:45

could form a community from it . So maybe

41:47

this is it .

41:50

Well , there you go , you've laid

41:53

the gauntlet down and I'm up for the challenge right

41:55

, I think we've got . We've

41:57

got to take action ourselves sometimes , and the

42:00

value of the creative industries

42:02

is one of the most

42:04

exportable and

42:06

important industries

42:08

of this country , is

42:10

what we're really known for . I

42:13

think before the pandemic it was worth 110

42:15

billion to the UK economy , when

42:18

and you know , that is trying to be , I

42:20

think , using your kind of phrase around that

42:22

kind of neurological connections

42:24

of how all these skills and this

42:26

talent you know connects with

42:28

everything we do , with books and films and

42:30

podcasts and graphics and photo

42:32

shoots and editorial . It's all there

42:35

. Remove it and we don't support

42:37

those individuals going to colleges

42:39

to train in these specialist areas , we

42:41

will have nothing left to . We do have to fight for

42:43

it and I hope in some way . This

42:45

is why this podcast will resonate

42:48

with people . They get to learn about how important

42:50

these industries are and how much skill

42:52

and talent it takes to

42:54

do what people do , and

42:56

it doesn't just happen by itself

42:59

, does it so .

43:01

No it . And also I

43:03

think I think people have have

43:05

when

43:07

, when the when covid was going

43:10

and everyone was at home watching , watching

43:12

television , and how

43:14

important television

43:17

was to many people

43:19

who are all by themselves . They might

43:22

have been in a , in a flat , by

43:24

themselves , without an outside space

43:26

, and all they had was the television . And

43:29

you know how we all we're always going oh

43:32

well , it's not a matter of life and death , or you

43:34

know , it's not , it's not this , it's

43:36

not that what we do . You

43:39

know , oh , it's not brain surgery or it's not this

43:41

, but but my gosh , we

43:43

were , we were keeping people

43:45

sane with , with

43:47

the content that we , we produce

43:49

, the programs we produce , experiences

43:51

, the contact , the humanity

43:54

of being , of seeing people

43:56

hugging and all that sort

43:58

of thing . You know , all of that was

44:01

what the entertainment industry was doing

44:03

. So you do realize

44:05

it is important . You

44:07

know , life without culture , my gosh .

44:10

Oh , be dull , and

44:13

that's . We've spoken about a

44:15

lot of the opportunity , a lot of the challenges within

44:17

the sector . Still , and you know , and again I

44:20

think this is across all the different

44:22

areas of the creative industries . But

44:25

my question is , tara , why

44:27

should people want to work in the

44:29

creative industries , particularly maybe

44:31

in your area ? Why should

44:33

they want to do this ?

44:35

because they will have an extraordinary

44:37

journey , extraordinary life

44:39

. They will meet people , they

44:41

would do things , they will see things

44:43

, they will have . They

44:46

will have an amazing time . You

44:49

know we spend a

44:52

lot of time together working

44:55

on a job . You know if you're working 10 hours

44:57

a day , five days a week . You're working

44:59

10 hours a day . So you wake up

45:02

. Maybe you're at home . For some

45:04

people do it in 20 minutes . Get out the door .

45:06

You know , some people take an hour .

45:08

I'm more of an hour person , maybe two I

45:11

do actually . You're back two hours , sometimes at

45:13

home . Anyway my point

45:15

is that you go to work , you spend 10 hours

45:18

with your work colleagues . You

45:20

come home and

45:23

you're a bit tired and you've kind of flop

45:25

around for a few hours and you go to bed

45:27

and your working family

45:29

are your working family . They

45:32

are . You spend more time with your

45:34

working family than you do your

45:36

other families really

45:38

. So

45:41

they are precious times

45:43

and they are fantastic

45:45

times . And , yes , we work

45:47

hard in the industry , but

45:50

we have such good friends , don't we ? You

45:52

know , my God , working friends are , just are

45:55

very wonderful . So

45:58

I think in particularly

46:00

in the UK , coming into the creative

46:03

industry , you are gonna have

46:05

an amazing time because we have so many

46:07

smaller bespoke companies

46:10

who specialize in such phenomenal things

46:12

. You know , when I was

46:14

on , you know you go to

46:16

the Harry Potter exhibition . Have you

46:18

been to that ?

46:20

I haven't , but everyone . These

46:22

are the things that are not dropping into the conversation

46:24

, but Tara's work done , yeah

46:28

, yeah yeah , we can see some of the things

46:30

I've made there .

46:32

So , yeah , so I created for

46:36

the first Harry Potter film . We created

46:39

a stunt scabbers and

46:41

we created a stunt head wig and

46:45

things like the snake and the trolls

46:47

and things like that . So I was working for

46:49

the Jim Henson Creature Shop on that . Anyway , you

46:51

go to the exhibition at Warner

46:55

Brothers Studios and you see all the beautiful

46:57

, beautiful things that have been

47:00

made the props , the

47:02

costumes , like

47:04

from the set , you know

47:06

, like the flagstones , the

47:09

scale model of

47:11

Hogwarts . It's absolutely

47:15

phenomenal . And all

47:17

these people are doing their trade

47:19

in the UK . You know Fantastic

47:23

people , fantastic , fantastic

47:25

things to work on . You

47:28

know , when you're on set with on

47:32

a really , you know , good film like you know , when I

47:34

knew I was on Star Wars and stuff you're

47:36

on set doing your thing and you look around

47:38

and the set is really

47:40

quiet because the first

47:43

AD who usually

47:45

is shouting orders going do this

47:47

, get this done , get this done , get this done

47:50

is just going . You know , say

47:52

quietly , someone knew you know we're doing

47:54

this now and then everyone just

47:56

started doing what they do and it was like

47:58

, oh , everyone was on top of their

48:00

game and it was the quietest

48:02

set , because everyone just got

48:05

on with what they needed to get and did it in the time

48:07

and it was like it was

48:09

wonderful , absolutely wonderful

48:11

, and it's just

48:13

. You're kind of looking at the

48:15

person next door as they're sorting

48:18

out a droid , or

48:20

you look down there and someone's set

48:23

dressing with some sort of goo

48:25

or something like that , but they're just , they know

48:27

what they're doing , Good fun .

48:30

I think you may have already

48:32

possibly answered this question , but I

48:34

do ask everybody are

48:37

there any misconceptions that you would like to deal

48:40

with right now about your trade and

48:42

your area that you just wanna put people straight on

48:44

? This is also

48:46

a safe space .

48:51

I think people kind of see a

48:54

lot of people view the industry by

48:57

looking at celebrity and

49:00

I think if you think about the celebrity

49:02

of our industry , it's a fraction

49:05

of it and

49:07

about the way people behave and

49:09

things like that . I think that

49:12

is a big misconception . I

49:14

think that

49:17

there is a misconception that you can't get

49:19

into , that

49:21

I

49:24

think education , the education system

49:27

, doesn't understand the industry and

49:30

I think the education system in

49:32

the whole of Britain doesn't

49:34

understand things that aren't

49:37

part of the education

49:39

system that are teaching . So

49:42

I think there's a big

49:46

mistake happening in education

49:48

with leading people towards the creative

49:50

arts . And I'm a school governor

49:52

at the moment and I'm

49:55

shocked by how arts

49:57

are being downgraded within the education

50:00

system . The budgets of schools have

50:02

been cut so dramatically that

50:04

schools are having to just deal with

50:06

the basics of

50:09

reading , writing and arithmetic . They've

50:11

gone back to those times . Anything

50:13

creative is being cut . So

50:16

that's not

50:18

quite a misconception , but it is a misconception

50:21

by the government not appreciating

50:24

us and

50:26

what we do , and

50:30

I think it's also making

50:34

a lot of people feel very unhappy

50:36

that their failures and all of that sort of thing . So

50:40

I think there's a deliberate hiding

50:44

of other communities because

50:47

it's allowing

50:49

the government to kind of control

50:51

education . Sort

50:54

of a roundabout way of doing that , that

50:56

answering that question if that

50:58

makes sense but

51:02

I think there is there is

51:04

that we all just flounce around not doing very much

51:07

and just flounce

51:09

on stage . But

51:11

I think it's more fundamental

51:14

. The second one for me

51:16

is quite a big controlling

51:20

and kind of trying to demean

51:23

the creative industries

51:25

really quite dramatically , and

51:28

I think it's been going on for quite a long time . But at the

51:30

moment it's like pretty appalling

51:32

how the education system is . The

51:36

kids are coming out of it with very little

51:38

knowledge of the arts .

51:41

I agree , I agree . So

51:44

we're at the last question

51:46

which I ask every guest , which

51:51

your interpretation of this is up to

51:53

you , but what we do on this show is

51:55

I ask you to make a cultural confession

51:57

, and that confession can be anything

52:00

you want , without getting yourself into trouble , necessarily

52:02

, but again that you

52:04

would like to share with the listeners , and it could be something

52:06

funny , it could be something that

52:09

really annoys you , but

52:11

something you'd be willing to share with our listeners .

52:15

Oh right , OK , well , hang on a minute . I have

52:18

to think about it . Oh no , I

52:22

was going to say something , but I don't think I

52:25

dare say this one .

52:27

People are actually listening to this , though .

52:30

Well , we did . You know , we did make some extraordinary

52:33

underwear , for

52:35

this was going back to 2012

52:37

for the stunt

52:39

double of the Queen , and

52:42

that was . That was

52:44

quite an interesting series

52:47

of meetings that we

52:49

had to make sure . So

52:51

we had , obviously , the arrival of

52:53

the Queen , for the ceremony was

52:55

with

52:58

James Bond and all that sort of thing , and

53:03

we

53:05

had . We had a body double

53:07

and we

53:09

had a stunt double . The

53:13

body double was

53:17

was female , the

53:19

stunt double was male and

53:22

jumping out

53:24

of the helicopter . So we did have

53:26

to make sure that as

53:30

the gentleman

53:32

jumped out , he didn't go south

53:34

and the skirt of the Queen

53:36

would go north and

53:39

it did involve quite

53:41

a lot of undercrackers and

53:44

lots of going down of a

53:46

skirt , but that was

53:48

quite highly entertaining and a series

53:50

of meetings had been had about that and

53:53

how we were going to make sure that

53:55

that was all . That was

53:57

all safe . Yeah

54:00

, we were all really really nervous about that . There

54:04

was that I can't the one there

54:06

. I do have something funny , but it's such

54:08

a , it's such a clanger . I

54:18

better not because I am under

54:21

. I am under still . I'm

54:23

still under . Some

54:26

confidentiality on that

54:29

front . Lots of basically

54:31

lots of things to do with pants . I've

54:34

had lots of very interesting interesting

54:37

underwear discussions

54:40

over over my

54:42

career . We've

54:44

had to make very wide . Who'd

54:48

have thought that some ballet

54:50

companies like a three and a half

54:52

inch wide gusset when

54:55

they're dancing ? So there's no

54:57

. And we had lots of conversations

54:59

about how wide that three and a half , three

55:01

and a half inch gusset in a pair of knickers

55:03

it's quite wide , which

55:07

, yeah , but is needed . So

55:10

there is not awful lot of conversations that

55:12

happen around underwear

55:14

. It's kind of very personal

55:17

, personal . Things are

55:20

many and very

55:22

serious conversations I had

55:24

around a table about

55:26

how we're going to deal with these things and that

55:28

is part of what I do at all . You

55:33

know , like on the Olympics , for example , on my budget

55:35

I had I

55:38

had budget lines for sheep

55:41

, horses and

55:43

things like that . So

55:46

you know you have long conversations about bizarre

55:48

things all the time , and

55:52

the Eurovision Song Contest was

55:54

just another one that was

55:56

my whole to do . To

55:59

do today list was

56:02

like like that all the time

56:04

.

56:07

But good fun though . Tara

56:09

, thank you so

56:12

much for being a guest . It's been a true

56:14

pleasure , and I could keep speaking to you for hours

56:17

. Maybe we'll do this again at some

56:19

point , but for now , thank you

56:21

so much for being on the show , and hopefully

56:24

lots of people will listen to it .

56:26

Well , well , I hope

56:28

so , but maybe or maybe I don't . But

56:30

it's been so lovely talking with you . I think

56:33

you , you know , your

56:35

love for people does come across when , when

56:37

we talk . So , yeah , really

56:39

nice . So it's lovely seeing you again .

56:41

Thank you so much and I'll see you soon . Thanks

56:47

for listening to this episode of Before the Applaus

56:49

. Please do tell everyone about this podcast

56:51

and stay connected with us across all the usual

56:53

social media platforms by searching

56:56

at before applause . If

56:58

you've got any burning questions , want to share

57:00

your own insights , want to recommend a guest

57:03

or be one yourself , then we'd love to hear from

57:05

you . You can direct messages on

57:07

any of our social accounts or email studio

57:10

at before the applause podcom . Thank

57:42

you .