0:00

Welcome to

0:02

the Behind the BITS podcast. Your

0:04

host, Scott Curtis, wants to learn

0:07

everything he can about stand up comedy

0:09

and take you along for the

0:11

ride. Scott and his guests

0:14

talk serious about comedy in every

0:16

episode. Behind the bits will uncover

0:18

knowledge from different perspectives, on subjects

0:20

such as writing and performing cinema,

0:23

as well as booking shows and the comedy

0:25

life. If you're thinking about becoming

0:28

a stand up comic already in the comic

0:30

game or a comedy nerd, behind

0:33

the bits is the show for you.

0:35

Now, let's get behind

0:37

the bits.

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1:37

ABTB buddies. I've got Jenny Hogan

1:39

on the show today. Jenny is a

1:41

New York City based writer and stand

1:43

up comic. She's a contributor for the

1:46

New Yorker, the Atlantic, the Cut

1:48

The New York Times, Cosmopolitan, the

1:50

Observer, McSweeny's, and

1:52

Vulture. That is a mouthful. She's

1:54

also written some sketches for Comedy Central.

1:57

Forbes profiled her as a rising star

1:59

and she was on pace list of top

2:01

humorous. Her latest book, I'm more dateable

2:03

than a plate of refried beans, is

2:05

available on Amazon. We

2:07

talked about her stand up, how she

2:10

started getting her writing published, and

2:12

Twitter. It's Jenny Hogan.

2:15

It's a good one. Do you think that there's

2:17

misconceptions about the

2:19

audiences in the south?

2:22

Well, I think I

2:25

I was doing an hour long

2:28

set that I kind of have prepared and there's

2:30

not really that much I can adjust

2:32

too based on the audience. I

2:34

was ready to just do my set kind

2:36

of regardless of what the audiences were like, and

2:38

I was a little bit nervous. But

2:40

I was largely in very urban areas.

2:42

And I my sets not, like,

2:45

extremely political. I make a few

2:47

like, I take a few jobs of Trump, which feels

2:49

very kind of, like, Vanilla --

2:52

Uh-huh.

2:52

-- at least in New York City. So

2:54

that went fine everywhere except

2:57

when I was in South

2:57

Carolina, thought I was doing a show and

3:00

Charles Stewart was actually doing a show and, like, this, like,

3:02

world town, like, an hour and a half from

3:03

Charles Stewart. Okay. So now it was a

3:05

little bit That was a

3:07

little bit harder. Yeah. The guy

3:09

ahead of me was, like, making references

3:13

to, like, how he had never worn a mask and

3:15

that kind of thing. So that

3:18

audience was, like, a little bit more

3:20

maybe, like, what my stereotype of the stats

3:22

was, but then ever else the audience felt

3:24

similar to whatever get, like, on these Yeah.

3:26

I think I I agree with that.

3:28

I think the metro areas are

3:31

are are they're they're

3:33

not even necessarily liberal, but they

3:35

at least listen and

3:38

and they don't take themselves so

3:40

seriously. It's when you get into

3:42

the more rural areas that

3:44

you you get the folks that hard

3:46

core. Howard Bauchner:

3:47

Are you in a city? Yeah. Huntsville,

3:50

Huntsville actually is the biggest city in Alabama.

3:53

We passed up Birmingham last

3:55

year. Yeah. Do you

3:57

like living there? I do. We

3:59

moved down because my

4:02

son got a job for

4:04

NASA about seven years ago. And

4:06

we just kept visiting and

4:08

saying, why don't we live here? And then

4:11

after COVID was done, we were kind of fed up

4:14

with

4:14

Indiana. And so, okay. I'll let's

4:16

just do it. So we do it.

4:17

Mhmm. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I

4:20

mean, it's it's kind of a big global city.

4:22

There's no I wouldn't consider consider

4:24

anything in Alabama

4:26

to be big. But it's

4:28

it's it's it's blue.

4:30

So that's that's cold mostly

4:32

because everybody's transplants. So

4:35

does everybody like,

4:37

they've got an FBI installation here

4:39

now that's really big. All

4:42

the defense contractors and stuff

4:44

like that. Everybody come comes in from

4:46

the

4:46

coast, mostly -- Mhmm. --

4:47

to take those jobs because of San the

4:50

cost of living so low here.

4:52

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

4:54

I wanted to ask, did you

4:56

did you start writing or

4:59

did you start stand up first? I

5:02

started stand up first. Yeah.

5:04

I am more of a rider now, but I started

5:06

in San Francisco. And in San Francisco,

5:08

there's, like, not really any kind of

5:10

like I I just didn't know anyone who

5:12

was even really, like, big on social

5:14

media. So really, like, the only thing that

5:16

I knew was was standing

5:19

up. So I started to stand up for and

5:21

I I did stand up exclusively for about a

5:23

year before I started writing

5:24

for, like, various websites. Okay.

5:26

Now did the Did

5:28

the stand up, like, just open up

5:30

your creative brain? Because I know you're

5:32

you're an engineer before. And

5:35

and did that just like,

5:38

open the door for you to start

5:40

writing the satire and and

5:42

and the great articles that you do.

5:45

Yeah. Totally. Sienna was, like, my first

5:47

time doing anything, like, created like that. I

5:49

guess, I did, like, speech in the Bayton High School, which

5:51

was, like, public speaking. But definitely

5:54

kinda got me like thinking about jokes

5:56

like a million times

5:59

a day. So I would say in that sense, like

6:01

stand up really like open things up and then

6:03

writing is, like, a little bit better

6:05

suited, I think, for my personality just because

6:07

I'm, like, a little bit introverted and

6:09

I'm, like, an early bird and that kind of thing.

6:11

So, like -- Mhmm. -- I still do and by Los unit.

6:14

But I

6:16

writing, like, feels like kinda like a more natural

6:18

fit. Yeah. And I really like them both,

6:20

but, you know, when I get into your articles,

6:22

the the one you wrote about, one year in

6:24

debate was was

6:25

great. I don't remember the title of that one.

6:28

It's about about the senator. Isn't it?

6:30

Yeah. It's not Josh Holly. And it's not

6:32

funny. Mostly very dark. I'm just trying

6:34

to write, like, darker things. Right.

6:36

And and contrast that

6:39

with, like, non

6:42

non mega Republicans for that

6:44

you did for the New Yorker, which is it's

6:46

funny and starchy and and

6:49

it really it it it's really just

6:51

kind of a funny silly article

6:53

and and

6:55

and the one about debate and Josh

6:57

was a lot more there was a lot more

6:59

meat on that one.

7:01

Yeah. Yeah. It's very dark. Yeah. Yeah.

7:03

So First off, I have to say

7:05

you're brave because I cyber stock everybody

7:08

I have on the

7:08

show. You're very brave to have your

7:11

first stand up set. Still

7:13

on your YouTube.

7:14

Is it still on my YouTube? I mean, I should

7:17

take it off. I'm not

7:18

I'm not I didn't know most of my YouTube,

7:20

like, a little while ago.

7:21

Yeah. That that one's

7:24

still there.

7:25

Okay. That's good to know. I'm gonna hide it.

7:27

Okay. Well,

7:29

I'll tell you, it's not the worst it's

7:31

not the worst first five minutes I've seen.

7:33

So it it it

7:35

you had a couple of good ones in there.

7:38

Yeah. I was really excited about, like,

7:40

stand up right in the beginning and I sent my

7:42

first set to, like, everyone. Like, I put it

7:44

online and, like, put it on my Facebook. Like, I I was

7:46

not at all ashamed and now I'm, like, this

7:48

is so

7:48

embarrassing. I can't believe it's up there. Yeah.

7:51

What what degree to stand up?

7:55

I I had, like, kind of, a lull

7:57

at work, and I thought that maybe

7:59

it made sense to just, like sorry.

8:02

Is there, like, a lag? What the

8:04

Internet? Okay. Right. I had a low I

8:08

had a little at work, and I I just kinda

8:10

wanted to do something to a friend. I worked in tech,

8:12

and I felt like a friend I knew worked in tech, and saying

8:14

that it was my first time, like, meeting, like,

8:16

kind of a new side of San Francisco.

8:19

And I took a class, but I didn't really expect

8:21

to, like, go further than the class. Like, I was

8:23

sort of, like, one of those yuppies. They're

8:24

just, like, takes classes and, like, random things I

8:27

find interesting. Mhmm. And

8:28

then I just, like, fell in love

8:30

with standup, and it became, like, I

8:33

just had to I had to

8:35

do

8:35

it, like, constantly, basically.

8:36

Yeah. And San Francisco's got a really

8:39

good scene. It

8:40

really does. Yeah. Yeah. Did you so

8:43

you you start doing the mics in

8:45

San Francisco. Did you

8:47

meet anybody that gave you some

8:49

really great advice out of the at

8:51

the onset?

8:54

Yeah. Well, I think that a lot of people

8:57

gave me, like, I think that I kinda

8:59

I can't really point

9:00

to, like, one person who's given me, like

9:02

who's been, like, my mentor, but I think that

9:04

at every step, like, there was, like, a different

9:06

person sort of, like, guiding me the next

9:08

step. So, like, when I started doing

9:10

comedy, like, the first challenge was, like, going

9:12

from open mics to, like, booked shows. So it

9:14

was, like, how to get booked on shows. And people,

9:16

like, gave me advice. And I'm, like, getting a good

9:18

tape and sending that tape to producers and that

9:20

kind of thing and, like, I

9:23

yeah. So then, like, from there, I kind

9:26

of I kinda,

9:28

like, moved on to doing book shows. And then

9:30

once I started writing online, I reached out to

9:32

other people who were also writing online who, like,

9:34

gave me feedback on how to turn that

9:36

into, like, any manager on running a book and that kind

9:38

of thing. Mhmm. So from

9:40

that perspective, it's been really good. Like,

9:42

I I feel like I've always had people to kind of ask

9:45

for help as I

9:45

went. Mhmm.

9:46

It's like I've I've heard that scene

9:48

is really it's

9:50

really kind of a closeness scene and

9:53

and they it's not as

9:55

it's not as hard on you as New York

9:57

is. No. Yeah. It's much

9:59

warmer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have

10:02

you done a lot of standup? I've

10:04

done it, like, as a hobby for about

10:06

six years. Yeah. Yeah.

10:09

Is there a good thing in Huntsville?

10:11

Actually, there is. And, really, a

10:13

couple guys built it up.

10:15

Matthew Tate and Scott Eason are

10:17

both here and I

10:19

can do an open mic, I

10:22

think, five nights a week.

10:24

And they've got a stand up

10:26

live, which I think is associated

10:29

with Zenis. Oh,

10:31

cool. One of the bigger one of the

10:33

bigger franchises, and

10:35

then they've got a couple smaller theaters

10:38

and a lot of a lot of

10:40

showcase shows. And then

10:42

we're only a couple hours from

10:44

Birmingham, not even even two hours from

10:46

Birmingham and then Tuscaloosa is pretty close

10:48

too. So there's it's pretty good scene.

10:50

You see people from all three

10:52

cities no matter where you go. Yeah.

10:54

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. So

10:58

thinking about your act, which I

11:00

really like, it's funny because you're

11:02

about to same age as my

11:04

daughter. And it's

11:07

it's funny how

11:11

my generation of

11:13

people don't understand

11:15

how your generation of

11:17

people see the world. You're

11:19

you're you're a lot more pragmatic about

11:22

it. You know, you really you you kinda

11:24

know what's going on. And when I think of myself

11:27

at your age, I didn't know what was

11:29

going on. And, you know, I was just putting my

11:31

head down to work and and you

11:35

you're a lot more informed. You're

11:37

I know the Internet has to do with that, but

11:40

you take the time to be informed

11:42

and you understand the issues

11:44

a lot more than I did at that

11:46

age.

11:46

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Do

11:50

you feel like like,

11:52

what what do you feel like your generation

11:54

was, like, not as well informed about? You

11:58

know, like politics,

12:02

the the world

12:04

situation, And

12:08

and we we also stamped a lot of stuff

12:11

down. Yeah.

12:12

You know, you it it it was

12:15

I mean, you know, you're

12:19

you're a woman and you know how

12:21

hard it is now. You

12:23

know, it was even harder

12:25

than. And, you know, it's

12:27

just I I think we

12:30

and, really, that's what I'm turning my comedy

12:33

around a b is kind of a kind

12:35

of a hopefully a soft anti

12:37

boomer sentiment from a

12:39

boomer. So that's what I'm that's what I'm

12:41

going for. And so it's

12:43

it's it's kind of

12:46

like we everything's

12:48

seemed good, so we just lived

12:50

their lives and didn't really look into

12:52

what was going on in

12:54

the country. And

12:57

in our neighbors

12:59

our neighbors houses and stuff like that.

13:02

Does that make sense? Yeah.

13:03

That makes sense. Yeah.

13:05

Maybe that'll give you some material. Yeah.

13:07

Yeah. Yeah. What's the material that's gonna

13:10

happen? Yeah. So So

13:13

like I said, I really like your standup. How

13:15

did you come to

13:17

the standup persona that you are

13:19

in that you have on stage

13:20

now? Because I mean, you really got

13:23

an hour pretty quickly. Oh,

13:26

thank you. It doesn't feel that, like, it's been

13:28

like six years.

13:31

Yeah. I I guess, like,

13:33

honestly, I worried that every year I'm, like,

13:35

writing less stand up. Like, I feel like my first

13:37

year stand up. I

13:37

wrote, like, half an hour jokes. And obviously, a

13:39

lot of them are good, and I don't tell them anymore.

13:42

But

13:42

yeah. I do feel like like

13:45

I just kind of am

13:50

always sort of I I used

13:52

to just, like, really write, like, a ton of

13:54

jokes and kind of, like, throw everything at the wall,

13:56

and now it feels like new stuff

13:58

I write has to, like, sort of fit in with,

14:00

like, my existing Santa persona.

14:02

That said, I try not to, like,

14:04

be too attached to having one

14:07

specific character on stage. So,

14:09

like, I I'm telling my hour

14:11

is, like, a chronological story of my

14:13

twenties. And the nice thing is that, like, I

14:15

go through, like, many different iterations

14:17

of, like, people in my twenties.

14:19

So, like, there are times when I'm very loose

14:21

in dating a ton of men, and then there are times when I'm,

14:23

like, possibly so a bit and, like, I get sober and I

14:25

get, like, a lot more serious. And so, like,

14:27

all these, like, different jokes can kind of work

14:29

in the same hour because it's, like, describing,

14:31

like, how I'm changing as a

14:32

person. And so that's, like, pretty

14:35

helpful, I would say.

14:37

Yeah. So so in that sense, I don't feel like

14:39

super attached up in, like, one persona

14:41

on stage. Think in the beginning, I really just, like,

14:43

wanted any joke. I thought it was funny. I

14:45

would just, like, put it in my in my set. Like,

14:47

it didn't really have to,

14:48

like, match any kind

14:49

of any

14:50

kind of personality. Right.

14:53

Yeah. You've I you've definitely

14:55

got a theme that flows

14:57

through. And IIII

15:00

just really enjoy the honesty of it and the

15:02

fact that you're just you're you're

15:04

really talking about, you

15:06

know, your life and how

15:08

how things have affected you

15:10

and just how

15:13

people people your age think

15:15

now. And it it really It's it's

15:17

helpful for somebody like

15:19

me to watch that

15:21

and then have a conversation

15:23

with my kids who are

15:25

your age and and kind of understand

15:28

where they're coming from.

15:29

Oh, interesting. Yeah. That's good to know. That's fun

15:31

to know. Because because your kids

15:33

your kids don't talk don't talk

15:35

about, you know, explicit sexual

15:37

stuff. But they they they

15:39

talk about the other stuff, you know,

15:41

the depression and

15:43

and and all that kind of stuff that is

15:46

it's just an epidemic

15:48

these days. So I I

15:50

really I I think that that

15:52

watching you made me

15:54

understand my kids

15:55

more. Oh, that's really

15:57

nice to hear. Yeah. Yeah.

15:58

We we we know. How many kids do

16:00

you end up?

16:01

Two. Yeah. Just two.

16:02

Two. Okay. Signing a daughter.

16:04

Yeah. Yeah. We're I mean, we're the

16:06

nuclear family. You

16:07

know? Mhmm.

16:08

And just don't have a dog anymore. No.

16:13

So you you you're doing the comedy and

16:15

you start doing the writing. How did

16:17

you sell yourself to these

16:19

publications so that you could start getting published?

16:22

Yeah. I mean, the pieces like our at

16:25

least at the New Yorker and McQueenie, they're fully

16:27

written by the time that I pitched them. So

16:30

so it's just a matter of I don't feel I

16:32

didn't feel like I had to, like, give them any personal

16:34

details about myself. They were just evaluating

16:37

the piece. Mhmm. For

16:39

other publications that I'm, like, trying to

16:41

or that I had to that kinda was, like, a

16:43

little bit slower rig into. I had to, like, write out a

16:45

pitch and then pass along

16:47

other writing samples. It is,

16:50

like, one of those, like, chicken and the egg

16:52

problems where, like, you need some publications

16:54

to get some publications. And I

16:56

think a lot of the times you have to, like, just

16:58

kinda put stuff up on a medium blog

17:00

or else no one will ever

17:03

wanna publish it on the website. But,

17:05

yeah, honestly, like, I

17:07

I didn't really have a plan when I started

17:09

doing that, and I think that that's, like, for

17:11

the best because if I had known how hard it

17:13

would be to, like, break in all these written publications. I,

17:16

like, maybe never would have tried. But, like,

17:18

fortunately, I did things just, like,

17:20

generally, like, pretty lovely and, like, one at a

17:22

time. And along

17:24

the way, I like, I I never was, like, oh,

17:26

this year, I need to, like, you

17:29

know, get this year, I need

17:31

to get published by, like, this publication, this

17:33

publication, this publication, it was always just,

17:35

like, I you know, as I had a

17:37

new idea, I would, like, through

17:39

my Twitter contacts to figure out who I could send

17:41

it to and

17:42

kinda, like, slowly, like, chippu way at

17:45

it. Cool.

17:46

And where what magazine or

17:48

our website where you first published

17:50

in? The

17:51

New Yorker. Oh,

17:53

wow. That's great.

17:56

Yeah. Yeah. So that was

17:58

and with the New Yorker, actually, we're looking at

18:01

open

18:01

submissions, which I feel like no

18:04

one would expect, but they really did, which is crazy. Like,

18:06

anyone could could

18:07

submit to

18:08

it. Man, who's

18:09

reading all that? Yeah.

18:13

Yeah. Like, it took them, like, ten months

18:15

to get back to me, but now

18:17

they get back, like, a little

18:18

bit. More in, like, a more timely way, which is

18:21

good. Uh-huh. Yeah. That's great.

18:23

Now I

18:26

I'm a guy who suffers from depression, and I so

18:28

I listen to your episode

18:31

on depression mode. And

18:34

and it's It's first

18:36

off, that guy, I think his name is Joe,

18:39

great interviewer. And he,

18:41

you know, he he does a really good job and

18:43

he's very prepared never

18:45

be like

18:45

that. You can't even

18:48

be weird. Yeah.

18:49

I like to III like the talk

18:51

to be more spontaneous, but I

18:53

just thought it was was really good

18:56

that

18:56

IIII like

18:58

that podcast. I'm gonna listen to more because

19:01

he he comes at it at

19:03

more of a matter of

19:05

fact type way because

19:09

people who suffer from depression, they don't

19:11

need to know about

19:13

all the sadness and stuff like that because

19:15

they already have it. So

19:17

that, you know, it's just

19:19

how how you get around it and the

19:21

the different stages and stuff like that. So

19:23

I thought that was a really a

19:25

really good hour of

19:27

of of talk

19:28

there, and I related to some of it.

19:30

So III felt really good.

19:33

You talk about the

19:35

the fact that

19:37

the standup

19:38

really kind of fed into the

19:41

fact that you were getting

19:43

into alcohol too

19:45

much. The drink tickets

19:47

and stuff like that. you

19:49

do you feel like that you could have had

19:51

that same alcohol problem if you

19:53

didn't do stand up?

19:57

Yeah. Totally. I think it, like, really

20:00

it really, like, got exacerbated

20:02

by Santa, but I feel like

20:05

I was kinda, like, already getting there because

20:07

I I think it was, like

20:11

I just, like, didn't wanna be in my brain, and

20:13

I feel like that could've really, like, turned

20:15

into, like, an alcohol problem, like, kinda,

20:17

regardless. Mhmm. I

20:20

think that, like, the fact that I

20:22

was, like, in bars overnight, a big thing

20:24

about Santa that it, like, made

20:26

drinking feel productive, which I think is, like,

20:28

when things kinda really started to, like, spin out of

20:30

control. So I do

20:32

feel like maybe it would not have gotten like

20:34

that if I didn't do sand

20:34

up, but I definitely think, like, the groundwork was kind of

20:37

late, like, before I started doing sand up.

20:39

Mhmm. Okay. Because I know that, you

20:41

know, for me, I I

20:43

still drink. And when

20:45

I perform or I go to a

20:47

show, I always

20:49

drink. And and it may be light

20:51

beer or something like that. It's not you know, I don't

20:53

drink heavily, but I always have a beer

20:55

in my hand or an old fashioned or something like

20:57

that. And if I hadn't

20:59

gone to the

20:59

show, I definitely wouldn't be drinking because I

21:01

don't just sit at home and drink.

21:03

So, you know -- Yeah. --

21:04

you know, being a social drinker. That's

21:07

that's what it is.

21:09

So, I kinda wanna talk

21:11

about Twitter because I mean,

21:13

that's really your was kind

21:15

of your launching path.

21:17

How do you how has Twitter changed

21:19

since our buddy, Elon, took over

21:22

for you? Not just Twitter in general, but

21:24

are are you getting as many

21:26

likes and retweets and stuff like that that

21:28

that you did before? I

21:31

don't think I'm getting quite as many likes

21:34

as before, which is, like, could don't

21:36

totally be me. My colin

21:38

berries. I I

21:42

lost a lot of followers, but now

21:44

I think the following loss has,

21:46

like, stabilized. And now I'm, like,

21:48

gaining followers again, which is

21:50

good. Because I need to be getting new followers if I want more

21:52

people to come to my stand up shows.

21:55

So from that

21:57

perspective, yeah, it's it's

21:59

been hard, but I think it's like

22:01

I think it's okay. I mean, like, he let Trump

22:03

back on and Trump didn't start tweeting, which I

22:05

guess is, like, something to do with his contract with truth social, but

22:07

I think it's great. Like, I

22:10

don't know. I think it's, like, also kind of embarrassing for

22:12

Elon that Trump doesn't even wanna use his site.

22:14

But, like, I feel that's kind of people

22:16

on it. I think a lot of people would leave if camp, like,

22:18

started, like, making it the YouTube

22:20

social. Uh-huh. But

22:23

tonight, it's actually honestly been kind of

22:25

nice to, like, get get on

22:27

these new platforms. Like, I got on

22:29

post and I got on mass

22:31

and

22:31

on. And it's good, I think,

22:33

to, like, just kind of, like, diversify a

22:36

little bit.

22:38

I take it on NASA, and I've encountered some

22:40

people who weren't

22:43

weren't following me on

22:44

Twitter. So it is kind of like opening up

22:47

a new potential fan base.

22:49

Mhmm. Yeah. So it's in that perspective.

22:51

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25:54

And I I

25:56

just wonder how many people are

25:58

just starting Twitter accounts just

26:00

to see what's up or Go

26:02

on the

26:02

government. Yeah. Yeah.

26:06

Yeah. Yeah. I bought deal on Musk on Twitter because I just

26:08

went to Minoy, and I, like, couldn't resist the

26:10

urge to comment. Yeah. And I just

26:12

so I yeah. I don't even really know what you're

26:15

saying. Yeah.

26:16

It's nobody wants to

26:19

know. It's well,

26:21

some people do. Some people still

26:23

think he's the second coming, but, you know, whatever.

26:27

So with Twitter

26:29

being kind of your your

26:32

main social media app

26:35

that that blew up

26:37

for you more than any other.

26:40

Did that before Elon and

26:42

all that. Did that translate into

26:44

audience members for you?

26:45

Yeah. I mean, I

26:47

I do my stand up show

26:49

hourly and our month and I

26:52

think most of the people come on

26:54

Twitter. I sell, like, sixty

26:56

tickets a month. And

26:58

so I I don't know how many are from Twitter, but I

27:00

do I do have, like, a

27:03

promo code that I I put on all my social

27:05

media platforms. And I

27:07

think, like, over half the people who buy tickets buy from my

27:09

promo codes.

27:11

So, yeah, it definitely does translate

27:14

into ticket sales. Mhmm. Great.

27:16

Great. I I've, you know, I've talked to

27:18

so many people that create

27:21

content and it's

27:23

it's really kind of a mixed bag

27:25

on if the content

27:28

actually, you

27:29

know, converts to

27:32

to somebody in a chair, you

27:34

know. Yeah. And I think that

27:37

people get more

27:38

they get more

27:41

involved with with

27:43

with pros, with with your

27:46

posting actual

27:49

words than, like, watching

27:52

a heckler real or something like

27:54

that or a TikTok or something like

27:55

that. I mean, they see it. They think it's funny, but

27:57

do they actually equate that to

28:00

a person?

28:01

Yeah. That's interesting because I would

28:03

think a video would get, like, more.

28:05

Mhmm. But I think that it could be true

28:07

that people feel like they're

28:09

Yeah. Like, they're seeing

28:12

like, kinda getting to know me more because it's

28:14

words. Yeah.

28:15

They're more investing.

28:17

Yeah. Yeah. I

28:17

think that could be a good job. Yeah. Yeah. I

28:21

and I'm just I'm

28:23

going off the rails here.

28:26

But I I just I I'm thinking

28:28

about all this stuff, and I thought about a lot

28:30

today, and I just I'm just

28:32

wondering, you know, I I don't do a lot of social media

28:34

myself. I just do it for the podcast.

28:36

And really Instagram is

28:38

my my platform there. And

28:40

I'm on Twitter. I post

28:42

maybe once a month, but I found

28:44

all these sub stacks

28:46

through Twitter. You know, I -- Mhmm. --

28:49

yours I probably subscribed to,

28:51

like, twenty of them. And it's

28:53

it's comedians and

28:57

writers and people

29:00

like that, and I get so

29:02

much from that that

29:05

sometimes I think that

29:07

just because of

29:08

that, Twitter was worth for me. Yeah.

29:10

Yeah. No. It definitely, like, kinda leads

29:12

you to find people who you can then find on

29:14

other platforms. Are you so you're a big fan

29:16

of, like, the newsletters? Yeah.

29:19

Yeah. Yeah. That's how that's how I found

29:21

you. And I the

29:23

funny thing is is I really I was

29:25

reading the newsletters and I didn't.

29:28

Equate you to being a stand up until you

29:30

started till you started posting shows.

29:33

And -- Yeah. --

29:35

IIII thought of you as more of a writer, you know,

29:37

just more of an

29:39

essayist. And and

29:41

and I

29:42

And then I'm like, oh, yeah. She's she's a she

29:44

she's a comedian. So that's that's when I

29:46

reached out. Yeah.

29:48

Yeah. It's interesting. What like, you both

29:51

know different platforms think that I do because, like,

29:53

people on Twitter think of me as,

29:55

like, a comic, but I

29:57

guess, like, people who

29:59

read me in the New York or to give me as, like, a satire

30:02

writer. And, like, I don't really think of myself

30:04

as, like, one thing or the other, but it's, like or

30:06

I guess, I think of everything as kind of all the

30:08

same and that I'm, like, a writer,

30:10

I guess. But people would be

30:12

like, oh, wow. That's so interesting. Like, also do

30:14

stand up or stand up, like, feels very

30:17

relevant to

30:18

to what I'm doing as, like, a comedian. So it's kinda

30:20

or, like, what I'm doing as a writer. So it kinda

30:23

does feel like it's a

30:25

little bit it's interesting to me when people

30:27

are, like, very surprised to learn to, like,

30:29

find that I'm, like, involved in one thing

30:31

over

30:31

another. Yeah. Yeah. It's

30:34

It's it's two totally different things, although they

30:36

overlap sometimes too. And

30:38

III like that.

30:42

You get around the country pretty

30:45

well. Who are you

30:47

seeing as comedians that

30:49

are really good out there now

30:51

that are kind of

30:52

unsung. Have you run into any of them

30:55

that just really you you

30:57

really like, but they're

30:59

not quite getting the heat that they should

31:00

have? Well, I

31:04

don't I think I don't really know a

31:06

lot of convenience outside of New York and

31:08

LA except San Francisco where I used

31:10

to live. Mhmm. My friend,

31:12

Martin, in San Francisco. So I think that you're you're one

31:14

of our friends, Jay, comedians who aren't in, like, one

31:16

of the big cities yet. Yeah. Yeah. My

31:18

friend, Jeff Dean, in San Francisco, is really

31:20

great. My friend, James Mora, and

31:22

service is so really funny. I

31:24

love this one in Holly Ballantine, who

31:26

lives in

31:26

Atlanta? Yeah.

31:27

I know how. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

31:29

She's great. And then I I did meet comedians

31:31

on the road. But it wasn't people

31:33

I've, like, seen multiple times. Generally, people

31:35

I thought were really good. But yeah.

31:39

I think I think that most of the

31:41

people I know though are

31:42

in, like, New York and

31:44

New York and

31:45

Los Angeles because those are the places that have, like, done the

31:47

most standup. Mhmm. Do you feel

31:50

like there is a

31:52

more even playing field

31:54

for women in comedy than when

31:56

you started? Do you think it's getting any better? Do you think

31:58

just kind of in a holding pattern?

32:02

I

32:02

think maybe it's getting like a

32:04

low a little bit better after me too and

32:06

that, like, women can kind of,

32:08

like, complain, I guess,

32:10

when things are messed up. Or

32:12

I shouldn't say a compliment. Like, women have kind of,

32:14

like, recourse when people, like, treat them badly.

32:17

Uh-huh. But that being said, like, I feel like you can

32:19

still look

32:19

at, like, lineups of any

32:21

any club and it's, like, mostly

32:23

men. So I wouldn't say that things have gotten,

32:25

like, dramatically better for women. But I think then,

32:27

actually, the other thing that's up women is, like, social

32:30

media because people can kinda find their

32:32

own audiences. So, like, you don't need,

32:34

like, a club to to, like,

32:36

approve you. Like, you can just

32:38

go and and seek out values on

32:40

your

32:40

own? Yeah. III agree

32:42

with that. I it's it's funny.

32:44

I see all the posters and

32:47

it's it's still

32:49

a lot of clubs and a lot of

32:52

promoters are, you know, you got the

32:54

token woman, you got the token

32:57

of LG BTQ, and

33:00

you you got the

33:02

token somebody from a different race. And

33:04

and it just seems to be kind of

33:06

AAA circular motion of

33:09

that and it's but

33:11

other times, you know, the

33:13

the one I don't like and I don't know how you feel about this

33:16

is is putting

33:18

together a show and

33:20

just saying, Okay.

33:22

It's it's ladies night. It's all ladies

33:24

and just putting a whole bunch of women on

33:26

the bill whether they're funny or not,

33:29

and just filling it up like

33:31

that and making theme shows. I I'm not a

33:33

theme show type of

33:34

person. How how do you feel about that? I

33:38

am not opposed to them because I

33:40

think that, like, there I think for an audience

33:42

member, like, there are audience numbers who don't like

33:44

to go to stand up because they think of it as,

33:47

like, not gonna represent them and people

33:49

who aren't gonna be, like, talking about

33:51

their lives. I think that for, like, audience

33:53

members who go to stand up shows and feel like it's all men

33:55

all the time. They're, like, happy to

33:57

see, like, a ladies and night kind

33:59

of thing. That said, like,

34:01

I do think it's, like yeah. Like, it I

34:03

I don't wanna be, like, a community who only

34:05

does, like, women shows and that sort of thing. So

34:07

I feel like it can be Like,

34:09

it's kind of, like, maybe better for the comics than it is

34:11

for the performers on rest. Yeah. But But,

34:16

yeah, I'm not opposed. I don't run a show like that, but

34:18

I feel like it is like it's just

34:20

kind of like a way to it's

34:22

also, like, helpful just for marketing like,

34:26

find the audiences who would like a show like that and kinda, like,

34:28

make sure that people know that they're gonna be, like,

34:30

the kind of comics who would represent their lives.

34:32

Mhmm. Just to stand up for, like, personal, like,

34:34

you wanna make sure that talking about --

34:37

Yeah. -- things you relate

34:38

to. Yeah. I agree with that. Let let's

34:41

get into joke writing

34:44

because you your jokes are well, they're not

34:46

really jokes. They're your

34:48

your your bits are very

34:52

well put together and very conversational

34:54

and, you know, autobiographical,

34:58

all that kind of stuff.

35:01

How and you talk about trying to

35:03

fit jokes into that persona

35:05

and into what you already

35:07

have. How has joke writing changed

35:09

for you from you started

35:12

and how do you do

35:13

it now? I honestly think I'd

35:15

do most of my job writing on Twitter. I'd

35:17

be like any, like, funny idea I have, like,

35:20

originates on

35:20

footer, like, I'll have a thought and I'll I'll

35:22

tweet it, and then I will see if I can

35:25

turn

35:25

it into a stand up joke or make

35:27

a TikTok or something. TikTok

35:30

actually is also kind of helpful for me just for, like,

35:33

saying things out loud and seeing

35:35

kind of how they can be broken

35:37

conversation. Like, because a lot of time stuff on Twitter,

35:39

like, really doesn't translate to TikTok.

35:42

Mhmm. So, yeah, I would say that those are kinda, like,

35:44

my main to two

35:46

things. And then I sort of go, like,

35:48

once I think it can be, like, set out loud, I'll take

35:50

it to, like, an open mic or to kind of, like, a more

35:52

casual stand

35:54

up show. And then

35:56

after that, I'll Yeah. If it works,

35:58

I'll kind of, like, keep iterating it. On

36:00

on it, I'll try with your brain

36:02

wording. Just to kinda keep yeah. Keep exploring it.

36:04

To keep, sort of, like because sometimes, like,

36:06

used to find, like, something like a funny idea

36:08

and the challenge is to just, like, find

36:10

the right format for a joke.

36:12

Like, some things were meant to be, like, an entire piece. Like, things were

36:15

meant to be, like,

36:17

standup bitch. Like, it just

36:19

kind of a matter figuring out, at

36:21

least, some things were only ever meant to exist on Twitter. So just sort of,

36:23

like, playing around with different ways of, like, different places

36:25

of putting a

36:28

joke before kind

36:28

of, like, deciding

36:30

on where to go. Mhmm. Mhmm. I

36:32

had a thought.

36:33

I think I lost it.

36:37

That's alright. It'll come

36:40

back. So this

36:42

this is a partnership. I

36:44

and I don't know if you got this because we because I

36:46

had to reschedule you, but there there's

36:49

something I'm doing, Carl.

36:51

Is this anything? And it's

36:54

really caught on with the

36:56

people who listen. I get I've

36:58

gotten more positive feedback about that than

37:00

I've gotten since I started a podcast, so it's actually my

37:04

new favorite part. So basically, what

37:06

it is, you bring a premise a bit,

37:08

a joke, whatever

37:10

you've got, and we bounce it off each other

37:12

and see if see if it's anything

37:14

or give each other

37:15

tags. Do you got it? Do

37:17

you do you

37:17

have anything lined up? Sure.

37:20

Yeah. Okay. And and, really,

37:23

you you can choose you can

37:25

choose if you go first or

37:27

me too. So Why don't you

37:29

go first? Okay. I'm pretty proud of

37:30

this one because IIII

37:33

was channeling you when

37:36

I wrote it. Mhmm. And it's

37:38

I it was right after I read the

37:39

article, the the list

37:42

of non mega Republicans. So I

37:45

this is dedicated to that

37:48

article. Boomers and Gen

37:50

Xers, please stop asking your kids when

37:52

they're gonna gonna give you grandbabies. Besides

37:54

the fact that some people lose don't want

37:56

kids. Have you seen the world today?

37:58

There's a good chance that your precious

38:00

grandbaby may turn out to be the real

38:02

life sarah

38:04

saving the world from Elon Musk, Joel O'STEIN, and the

38:06

disembodied head of Dow Donald Trump,

38:08

mounted on a twenty foot tall robot

38:11

with gun arms.

38:13

Yeah. Uh-huh. Do you want it to

38:16

be, like, a satire piece, like, a full

38:18

length kinda

38:19

It's a New

38:20

York thing. You want, like, a stand up bit. It's

38:22

more so I'm writing it as a stand up bit and --

38:24

Yeah. -- so I it it kind

38:27

of weaves into everything

38:30

that boomers have a problem with, like self

38:34

checkouts and stuff like that. And

38:36

-- Yeah. Yeah.

38:38

-- just it's kind of a

38:40

gentle rail again maybe

38:42

not that gentle rail against

38:43

boomers. And, you know, I

38:46

I've thought about writing pieces and stuff like that,

38:48

but I've never taken the time to

38:50

actually do it. I think

38:52

it's really funny. I I think maybe for, like, the

38:54

opening sentence, it felt like

38:56

more about of an essay than a stand of

38:57

it. Can you say it one more time? Yeah. And I'm reading

38:59

it because

38:59

I've never said it out loud. Okay. The

39:01

new essay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

39:03

I didn't think And that's

39:05

probably why it sounds like a written

39:08

piece. Boomers and gen xers,

39:10

please stop asking your kids when they're gonna

39:12

give you grandbabies. Besides the fact, some

39:14

people just don't want kids. Have you seen the world today? There's a

39:16

really good chance that your precious

39:18

grandbaby may turn out to be a real life

39:20

Sarah Connor

39:22

saving the world from Elon Musk, Joel O'stein, and the

39:24

disembodied head of Donald Trump modeling

39:26

a twenty foot tall robot with

39:29

gun arms. Yeah.

39:31

That's really funny. I think So I see a

39:34

I feel like

39:35

it should be, like, more

39:38

clear that the the grandchild is gonna go

39:40

after things that they love. Yeah.

39:43

Because it you've

39:45

been I just I I guess I'm not on board opinion

39:47

that boomers love, like, Elon

39:50

Musk. Mhmm. So, like, there are,

39:52

like, there's a there's a real

39:54

good chance, like, your grandchild

39:56

is gonna grow up to,

39:58

like, be the one

40:00

to, like yeah. The idea

40:02

of, like, all the things that, like, boomers hate self checkout. your

40:04

grandchild might grow up and, like, and

40:06

invent a better version of self

40:10

checkout.

40:10

Yeah.

40:11

Like, things that are, like, specifically, like,

40:13

what what do you feel where I was, like,

40:15

really, hate. Mhmm. You're grandchild. I was just

40:17

gonna grow up and, like, tell you that

40:20

what's like a television show that I don't

40:22

know. What are things? I

40:23

don't know. Like, every everybody

40:25

loves Raymond. I That's

40:27

Yeah. You're great. You can grow up. Watch. Everybody loves layman and

40:29

not laugh once.

40:32

Yeah. Yeah.

40:34

I like that. I like that. And I I feel

40:37

like I could maybe dig

40:39

more into

40:40

if I want to Eric

40:43

Connor route, I could dig more into

40:45

that and how the world's getting to where

40:47

it is and where it's

40:49

going from

40:50

here. I think I don't know, Sarah Connor. Okay. There

40:52

you go. Terminator. She yeah.

40:55

Okay. She was the the

40:57

kids mom and

40:58

terminator. I

40:59

see. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

41:01

See, that's that's why it probably won't

41:03

work because your generation

41:07

doesn't know terminator. Okay.

41:09

Yeah. There there you

41:11

go. That's I gotta find

41:13

something

41:13

else. Your Yeah.

41:19

I'm looking at a buzzfeed article for

41:21

things boomers love. Like, you're a child that

41:23

your granddaughter is gonna grow up and not have any

41:25

idea what a floppy

41:28

skis.

41:30

Well, and

41:34

no no

41:36

what what life was

41:38

like without cable TV and --

41:40

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. --

41:41

texting and smartphones. Yeah. Like,

41:44

before you had pressure your kids to

41:46

have kids. They have their own kids. Just

41:48

keep in mind that in ten

41:49

years, there might be a child in front of you asking

41:51

you what cable is.

41:54

Yeah. Hold on. Yeah. I like that. I'm

41:56

taking notes as I go.

42:02

Great.

42:02

Thank you. I and it was really good that I

42:04

bounced this one off of you because if

42:06

you don't know who Sarah Connor is, then

42:10

that that's kind of a deal breaker because

42:12

most of most of the audiences around

42:14

here are about your age.

42:17

Okay. There

42:19

you go. Yeah. I'll III may

42:21

try it

42:21

that way at a at a mic one time and

42:24

see how many of

42:26

my peers actually know who she

42:27

is? Honestly, I think I'm, like, more

42:29

out of the loop. Like, I don't follow pop culture

42:31

really well. So she could

42:34

be,

42:34

like, whenever. Yeah. And I'm the same. I'm I'm an outlier as far as

42:36

that's concerned because I'm not, like, in the Marvel

42:38

movies or anything like that. And

42:43

but terminator is one thing I know.

42:45

That's and but, you know, what was

42:47

that? Like, thirty years ago when the first one

42:49

came out. Yeah.

42:52

Yeah. Yeah. Alright.

42:53

Cool. What you

42:54

got for me? Okay.

42:57

This fence based on, like,

42:59

a tweet, but, like, So,

43:01

look, I really want to find a partner and start

43:03

a family because I read one time that, like,

43:06

seventy percent of people

43:08

on their deathbed say the most important things

43:10

in life love and

43:11

family, which does beg the question, why are you taking

43:13

a survey of people

43:15

on their deathbed?

43:18

I'd like

43:19

That's the kind of a one liner, so I don't know where I would go from there. But yeah. But

43:21

that'd be more fun. Yeah. Well, you could you could

43:23

really dig into

43:26

what what

43:28

what the whole love and family thing is. And

43:30

if you want to,

43:33

you know, you know, what

43:35

does family mean these

43:37

days? You know? And what what

43:39

does it mean then?

43:42

Yeah. Or maybe, like, their

43:44

family was were the only people

43:47

there. Yeah. Yeah.

43:51

They were reading

43:53

the room. Yeah. You

43:55

know? Yeah. That's

43:57

right. Thank Yeah.

43:58

Yeah. That makes sense. That's good. Yeah. III think you could

44:00

definitely work with that. Okay. And

44:02

then I have one that I wanna say, like,

44:05

would never just get myself as sexually active. There's

44:08

something active about what I do when I'm

44:10

having sex. Mhmm. I

44:12

prefer the term

44:14

sexually present. In

44:15

fact, I spend most of the session being

44:17

jealous of how many calories the guy is

44:20

burning. That's

44:21

good. Yeah.

44:23

Yeah. That's very good.

44:25

Yeah. Any tags? I I kinda it kinda

44:28

works sometimes, so it doesn't really, like, pop. So I

44:30

feel like I either need to, like, come up with

44:32

another tag

44:33

that that just grab it. Now I've

44:36

got I've got one last question. You're

44:41

you're kind of an outlier and you don't get

44:43

into pop culture so much. Are there

44:45

any of the old

44:49

timey comedians that that you've watched. Have have you watched any of

44:51

the older shows or have any

44:53

of

44:53

them? Just

44:56

like

44:58

put a light bulb above your head or whatever

45:02

just you really got into what they were doing

45:04

and it kind of

45:06

inspired you?

45:07

I wish I could say

45:09

that I watched a lot of old

45:11

comedians, but I didn't. I was never really a standup

45:13

fan before I started doing it yet. Maybe, like, Mitch

45:15

Hedberg, like, that kinda one liner. Child. Uh-huh.

45:18

Yeah. But I unfortunately, I

45:20

was not, like, a big company and as a as a

45:22

child. So I don't think I have, like, meeting

45:25

who really inspired me. I love, like, Dmitry Martin. I wouldn't say he's an old

45:27

comedian. And I actually wouldn't really say his

45:29

style inspired me, but

45:32

I remember watching him like ten years ago and thinking it

45:34

was like really cool. He was doing just cool and different.

45:36

Uh-huh.

45:37

Uh-huh. Cool. Cool. Well,

45:39

thanks so much for being on the show. No. You can't hear

45:42

me.

45:42

This is really fine. Thanks thanks for

45:43

redoing doing a redo

45:46

for me. Yeah.

45:47

Yeah. I'm glad the

45:47

equipment stayed together.

45:48

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

45:50

Yeah. Where can folks find

45:52

you on all the social

45:56

tools, and maybe maybe say a little

45:58

bit about the book that came out

45:59

too. Sure. Yeah. And Judy Hogan

46:02

underscore on Twitter and Instagram, and then I'm

46:04

Judy Hogan on talk. book

46:06

is a humor book. It's like New Yorker

46:08

style satire pieces about dating. It's

46:10

like a fun, quick read. It follows the

46:12

structure of a modern relationship. And

46:15

kind of like, the absurdly of modern dating. It's called

46:18

I'm more dateable than a plate of brief

46:20

ribbons. I linked to it on all my social

46:22

media. So yeah. If you are

46:24

interested, yeah.

46:25

Get a read. Yeah. It sounds

46:26

really good. Maybe I'll buy it and send it to

46:28

my daughter.

46:29

Yeah. That's

46:29

nice. I know appreciate that. I hope she

46:32

likes it. Well, thanks

46:32

so much for being on the show. This

46:34

was great.

46:35

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