0:03

Hey,

0:07

everyone. Welcome to Being Wild. I'm Forrest Hanson.

0:09

If you're new to the podcast, thanks for

0:12

joining us today. And if you've listened before,

0:14

welcome back. My guest today

0:16

is clinical psychologist Dr. Lizzie Gibson. She's

0:18

the author of a number of books,

0:21

including, I think it's fair to

0:23

call it a cult classic, adult children of emotionally

0:25

immature parents, which has now sold over 1 million

0:28

copies, which is just a crazy

0:30

enormous number, and her most recent

0:33

book, Disentangling from Emotionally Immature People.

0:36

Dr. Gibson's work has helped so many

0:38

people understand themselves and their experiences better,

0:40

while also giving them the tools they

0:43

need to recognize emotionally immature people,

0:45

manage their relationships with them effectively,

0:47

and establish the healthy boundaries that

0:49

allow us to protect ourselves emotionally.

0:51

So today we'll be exploring emotional immaturity,

0:53

including some of the common symptoms coping

0:56

patterns that can come out of being

0:58

raised by emotionally immature parents. We'll

1:00

also learn how to deal with these challenges in

1:02

adulthood and work with some of the

1:05

common issues that come up when we start to

1:07

disentangle from people who just aren't very good for

1:09

us. So, Lindsay, thanks for joining me. How are

1:11

you doing today? Oh, I'm doing

1:13

great. It's wonderful to be here, Forrest. Yeah, I

1:16

really appreciate you taking the time. I've been looking

1:18

forward to this one for a while. And I

1:20

would love to start with just kind of a

1:22

basic general question. What's emotional immaturity? Yeah,

1:25

good question. What

1:27

are we talking about here? So I have

1:30

to tell you that when we were

1:32

trying to decide on the final title

1:34

of the book, we had

1:36

a consultant who worked for Barnes and

1:38

Noble, I think, and she said, I

1:41

think you should call this book

1:43

Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents.

1:46

And my editor and I both went, you

1:49

know, we don't think that's a

1:51

very exciting title, you know, etc.

1:53

And finally, we got talked into

1:55

it. But it's been amazing how

1:57

many people have told me later.

2:00

If that was what made them

2:02

pick the book up, that when

2:04

they saw that phrase, emotionally

2:06

immature parents, something

2:08

clicked with them and they resonated

2:11

with it. It's

2:13

as though people recognize what that

2:15

is, even if they

2:17

don't technically know what that is.

2:20

So when I was getting trained,

2:23

there was a big emphasis on child

2:25

development and the relationship between a person's

2:28

level of development and their mental

2:30

health or their daily functioning. So

2:33

when I say emotional immaturity, I

2:35

mean that at

2:38

an emotional level, some people,

2:40

unfortunately it's many people,

2:43

tend to react

2:45

to life as though they

2:47

are psychologically much younger than they

2:49

really are. Now, general

2:52

development in a human being

2:54

can happen in separate

2:56

threads. Like we can have

2:58

our intellectual development, we can

3:00

have our social development, we can

3:03

have our occupational development. So

3:05

you could be an extremely

3:07

intelligent person who

3:10

is a great success in business

3:12

or in your chosen

3:15

field, and you can be very

3:17

socially popular. Most

3:19

things all proceed apace, but

3:22

in your emotional development, you

3:24

may be actually more like

3:27

a three or a four year old or a seven

3:29

year old or a 15 year old.

3:32

And so we want to understand

3:34

that people kind of get stuck

3:37

at certain ages in terms

3:39

of how they handle

3:42

their emotional responses to life.

3:44

And of course that includes things like intimate

3:47

relationships and stress. So

3:50

if you think about it on a

3:52

continuum, we don't have

3:54

the absolutely 100% emotionally

3:58

immature person. that would

4:00

be hard to find. And

4:02

then we don't have the 100% emotionally mature person. So you'll

4:08

notice that I always refer to adequately

4:11

emotionally mature or sufficiently

4:13

emotionally mature. And

4:16

it's all relative. And

4:18

people slide back

4:21

and forth between maturity

4:23

and immaturity, depending

4:26

on the level of stress that

4:28

they're facing and depending on the

4:30

demands on them for emotional

4:33

intimacy or closeness with other

4:35

people. So if

4:37

we are sick

4:39

or exhausted or very

4:41

stressed, all

4:44

of us can show emotionally immature

4:46

behavior. We become more impulsive. We

4:49

become less sensitive to other people. We

4:52

have trouble modulating

4:54

our emotional and

4:57

anxiety responses to life. And

5:00

conversely, the emotionally

5:03

immature person, when

5:05

they really want something, or

5:07

when they're very well resourced, you

5:09

know, they're topped off, they're feeling

5:11

good, things are going their way,

5:13

they can stretch and

5:16

appear to be much more emotionally mature than

5:18

they really are. Well,

5:20

to say really more than

5:22

they can sustain. What are

5:24

some of the common features of this that are

5:26

kind of good symptoms for people

5:28

to look at of emotional immaturity? The

5:32

emotion part is huge, because

5:34

one of the greatest challenges for

5:37

any kid's development, as

5:39

all of us know, who have children or

5:41

have been around children, they

5:44

have trouble regulating their

5:46

emotional responses.

5:49

They have a hard

5:51

time keeping an even keel by

5:54

themselves. So a huge

5:56

part of parenting and nurturing has been a

5:58

huge part of the community. has to do with

6:01

stepping in when the child is getting overwhelmed

6:03

by their own emotional responses. And

6:06

over time, the kid

6:08

learns that this is how

6:11

I calm myself down, or this is

6:14

who I go to to get help in

6:17

calming myself down. But it's

6:19

not something that we all

6:21

know this about babies. It's not something that babies

6:23

come into the world knowing how to do. They

6:26

have to be taught it over years

6:30

of, hopefully, attentive enough

6:32

nurturing. They begin to

6:34

figure out how to

6:36

bring themselves down and

6:39

to develop those parts of the brain that

6:41

can really cope with the

6:44

stress in ways that are

6:46

adaptive. If you think about it

6:48

in terms of, how do

6:50

I deal with stress? How

6:52

do I deal with my

6:54

own emotions? And

6:58

then how do I get

7:00

close to other people and

7:03

get to know them in an emotionally

7:05

genuine way without getting

7:07

overwhelmed by them or scared

7:10

by them? How do

7:12

I move in and out of

7:14

an optimal level of closeness with

7:16

them? This takes years,

7:19

hopefully, of good relationships

7:22

with adults in

7:24

order to develop those kinds of

7:26

controls. Yeah. So just thinking

7:28

about the behavior of young kids. And

7:32

I think this model that you have of

7:34

being kind of trapped in a moment in

7:36

terms of your abilities who relate emotionally to other

7:38

people is a very, very helpful one just for

7:40

people to think about generally and think about the

7:43

consequences of that and their relationships with other people

7:45

in their lives, which we'll certainly get into a

7:47

bit more later. But there are some

7:49

features of the behaviors of kids. For

7:51

starters, they're very egocentric. They're

7:54

very wrapped up in themselves. They have

7:56

a hard time kind of seeing things

7:58

through the perspective of others. people. They can

8:00

go there every once in a while, but it's

8:02

difficult to access. Most kids

8:05

are not super self-reflective. They're not doing

8:07

a lot of deep introspection into their

8:09

own nature. They can

8:11

be quite self-righteous in their

8:14

own way and are very

8:16

willing to justify their behavior based on whether or

8:18

not it was good for them. Another

8:22

thing that you talk about in the book that

8:24

really stood out to me is this notion of

8:26

effective realism, which we also see in children, which

8:29

is when you define reality based on what

8:31

you feel it to be as opposed

8:33

to what it might be objectively. I was wondering

8:35

if you could talk about that a little bit

8:37

more. I think that's a huge feature of this,

8:40

that when people look back in their personal

8:42

history, they might be able to see in

8:44

their relationships with others if they were around

8:46

a lot of emotionally immature people. Yes,

8:50

it's one of the more subtle

8:53

aspects, but yet when I describe

8:55

it, everybody knows what I mean

8:58

because anyone who's ever known

9:00

anyone like this has experienced it. It's

9:03

extremely frustrating to

9:05

be at the receiving end of it. When

9:08

emotionally immature people are

9:10

confronted with a reality that

9:13

is distressing to them, it

9:16

overwhelms them emotionally. All

9:19

of us have been overwhelmed at times where

9:21

it's just like, I can't process another bit

9:24

of information. I can't cope.

9:27

So when this happens, emotionally

9:30

immature people like the rest of us have

9:33

these very involuntary, automatic,

9:36

unconscious defense mechanisms

9:40

that pop in whether we want

9:42

them to or not. That's one

9:45

of the things that I think

9:47

people often misunderstand about psychological defenses

9:49

or coping mechanisms because

9:51

it sounds, but we're so consciousness

9:54

oriented nowadays. We forget about

9:56

the subconscious, you know, it

9:58

doesn't exist. But the

10:01

fact is that we have this

10:03

whole part of our mind that is

10:05

devoted to keeping us feeling

10:07

in control and safe. And

10:10

what would be the purpose of a good defense if

10:13

it didn't kick in before we

10:15

got upset? Okay,

10:18

so there's like a little sentry

10:20

that's, you know, like patrolling all

10:22

the time. Like is this safe? Is this going

10:24

to make me feel okay? Is this somehow, you know,

10:27

a threat to me? If it

10:29

senses that something is going south,

10:32

it will send up a defense before

10:35

you are even aware that

10:37

you're getting nervous. Okay?

10:40

So when emotionally immature

10:43

people go into their

10:45

defensive self-protective

10:48

coping mechanisms, they're not doing it

10:50

because they're trying to

10:52

push you away or they're trying to give

10:55

you a hard time. They

10:57

don't have any choice in the matter. And

11:00

when it's reality or a piece of

11:02

reality that they really don't like, automatically

11:06

they will go into denying

11:08

it, dismissing it, or

11:10

distorting it. And

11:13

that's very effective because

11:16

now reality has become something that

11:18

I can deal with. Or

11:20

now reality has become something that isn't

11:22

worth dealing with. Or reality has

11:25

now become something that didn't really happen in the first

11:27

place. That is really

11:29

cool. It's a very effective defense mechanism. Yeah,

11:31

totally. It really is. It really is.

11:33

I don't have to worry about it if it's not there. It's

11:35

all okay. Exactly. So

11:38

the immaturity part of that is

11:40

that I'm not changing

11:43

myself in order to

11:45

deal with reality. Neither

11:47

am I adapting to

11:50

reality. I'm changing

11:52

reality. So

11:54

what happens with affective realism

11:57

is that I use how something

12:00

feels to me as

12:02

the defining feature

12:05

of this thing that just

12:07

happened. For instance, if

12:09

an adult child says to

12:12

their rather intrusive mother

12:14

or father, mom, dad,

12:17

you know, I'd really appreciate it if you would

12:19

give me a call before you stop by. You

12:22

know, I might be taking a nap. I might, you

12:24

know, might be giving the baby a bath. Just give

12:26

me a call before you come and let's see if

12:28

that's a good time to visit. And

12:31

they'll say, what are you

12:33

talking about? I'm your mother. I want to

12:35

stop by to see I'm gonna stop by to see you.

12:37

We're family. And then it would be,

12:39

are you saying that you

12:41

don't want to see me anymore? Are you

12:43

saying that you don't love me? Feels like

12:45

you're done with me. Okay, now

12:48

all the person did

12:51

was ask for

12:53

a respectful phone call before

12:55

they came over said nothing

12:57

about don't ever come over again,

13:00

said nothing about how they feel about

13:02

their parents. They just asked for

13:04

a little bit of warning and a

13:06

little bit of space. Okay, what we

13:09

would call a healthy boundary. But

13:11

because the parent felt rejected

13:15

by that they felt like they

13:17

were being pushed away and emotionally

13:19

immature people are super sensitive to

13:22

any sign of rejection

13:25

or abandonment, any any break

13:27

in attachment, because

13:29

they feel that way. They think

13:32

that's the reality. And

13:34

that's a term that was

13:36

coined by research team Barrett and

13:38

Barr, where they looked at people

13:40

who did this and when they did it. So

13:43

it can be very frustrating because there is

13:45

no logic to it and there's no evidence

13:48

for it. But because

13:50

it feels that way to the emotionally

13:52

immature person, they will

13:55

make you feel as though you have

13:57

been disloyal or

13:59

unkind. or even

14:01

frankly rejecting toward them.

14:05

Having talked to so many different people and

14:07

worked with so many different people related to

14:09

these issues, could you paint a

14:11

little picture here of an example of

14:14

what a childhood with an emotionally

14:16

immature caregiver or caregivers might look

14:18

like for somebody? Just so they

14:20

can kind of put themselves in the shoes of this experience or

14:22

see it in their own life? I

14:25

think one of the reasons that the

14:28

book became so useful

14:30

to a lot of people was that it

14:33

describes something that was

14:35

hard for them to put into words.

14:39

Because a lot of people with emotionally

14:41

immature parents know that their

14:43

parents love them. They love

14:45

their parents. They know that

14:47

their parents mean well, that their parents

14:49

are putting a roof over their head,

14:51

food in their stomachs, getting them care

14:53

when they're sick, sending them to school.

14:57

No, this is not across the board. I

14:59

mean, of course there are many emotionally immature

15:01

parents who are falling down in some of

15:03

those areas. But for the

15:05

most part, the people who

15:07

are pulled to a book

15:10

like mine have what

15:12

looks like on the outside, maybe to

15:14

the rest of the world, like a

15:17

fairly normal family life. And

15:20

they can sort of see that too. And

15:24

yet they don't feel

15:26

that there's a closeness there

15:29

and they don't feel secure

15:32

within that family structure, but

15:34

they don't know why. So

15:37

a cardinal characteristic

15:40

of the adult child of the

15:42

emotionally immature parent is that

15:44

they grow up feeling very emotionally

15:46

lonely. You know,

15:48

everything is kind of in place

15:50

lots of times, but they

15:53

have a sense that they're not deeply

15:56

known. They're not

15:58

seen. They don't feel secure. don't have

16:00

that sense of emotional connection

16:03

and emotional intimacy with their

16:05

parent where they feel like

16:07

they can run

16:10

to their parent with their

16:12

deepest feelings or

16:14

that they can express

16:16

their needs from their heart

16:18

in this very deep

16:20

heartfelt kind of way. And they

16:25

feel like there's something

16:27

that matters with them. This is

16:29

unfortunately, you know, we talk about

16:31

the, you had mentioned the egocentrism

16:34

of kids. Well, kids

16:36

interpret anything that's

16:38

not going well in the

16:40

family to something that they

16:43

might be doing, which

16:45

is a pretty adaptive response because,

16:47

you know, it gives you a chance to

16:49

change it because, you know, if it is

16:51

your fault, maybe you can figure out what

16:53

to do about it. But it

16:56

seems like everything is caused by

16:59

me. That's what the little child thinks. So

17:02

if I think a bad thought and

17:04

then something bad happens, I cause that

17:06

to happen. It's magical thinking, you know,

17:09

from like the age of two to six,

17:11

we live in this magical world where

17:13

everything that we feel and think affects

17:16

our life outside. But when

17:18

you have an emotionally immature parent

17:21

who's not able to get

17:24

in there with you and really

17:27

be present for

17:29

your feelings and understands

17:31

what you're going through and can

17:34

guess, this is important, can

17:36

guess what you might be feeling

17:39

and then help you with it because they've

17:41

been around the block a few times and

17:43

they know what this feels like and they

17:46

know how it tends to turn out and

17:48

they can be there for you in your

17:51

moment of emotional necessity.

17:54

But for these kids,

17:56

it feels like, well,

17:58

mom and dad or or whoever

18:01

the partner parents are, they

18:03

seem to be okay. They seem to

18:06

be saying that everything's all right and

18:08

we're fine. I don't

18:10

feel like that. I'm scared

18:13

or I'm feeling lonely or

18:15

I feel like I've done something wrong

18:17

all the time. But

18:19

nobody else seems to be feeling this way. And

18:21

so that creates this sense of, maybe

18:24

there's something the matter with

18:26

me. Maybe I'm overreacting. They

18:29

certainly get the message that they're too sensitive,

18:32

that they want too much, that

18:34

they're always interrupting, that they're kind of

18:36

a nuisance because the

18:39

emotionally immature parent has a

18:41

very limited capacity for

18:44

stress. And what

18:46

is stressful? Stressful is when

18:48

you have to do six things at once. Yeah,

18:51

totally. And I think it also gets back to the

18:54

effective realism part of it, where the

18:56

parent is creating a story about where

18:58

the problem lies inside of the family

19:00

system. And they're ascribing it to the

19:02

kids because one of the things we talk

19:05

about on the podcast a lot is that children effectively

19:07

have two choices. They can either decide

19:09

that the parents are the problem, that

19:12

their caregivers are doing these bad things

19:14

and so they'll keep on doing these

19:16

bad things until they're able to escape.

19:18

Some kids do see that clearly, but

19:20

that's very uncommon. Much more often

19:22

they make the second choice, which is they decide that

19:24

they're the problem because they can do

19:26

something about their own behavior. They cannot do

19:28

something about their parent. And this

19:30

moves into something that you talk about in great

19:32

detail in your books, which is the creation of

19:35

what's called role self. And I would

19:37

love if you could talk about it a little bit, including like how

19:39

it gets created. I was

19:41

just resonating with what you were

19:43

saying about the child who

19:45

can recognize

19:47

that maybe their parents are

19:50

having trouble or maybe there's something the matter

19:52

with the parent. And you're

19:55

right, for most kids, that is

19:57

the conclusion of last resort.

20:00

because nobody wants to

20:02

think there's something wrong with their parents.

20:05

I mean, that is like the scariest

20:08

thought you can have when you're a

20:10

little kid. So when

20:12

the child gets the message that

20:17

when, let's say a child is upset

20:19

about something, maybe a peer

20:21

has hurt their feelings, or, you know,

20:23

maybe they have lost something precious to

20:25

them, but whatever it is, they're very

20:28

upset, they're unraveling, and

20:31

they go to the parent

20:33

for comfort, and

20:36

the parent stiffens up

20:38

and actually moves back. Okay,

20:41

they withdraw because

20:44

they don't handle stress

20:46

very well. They're not structured

20:49

enough inside to be

20:51

able to handle that kids stress while

20:53

they're dealing with, you know, whatever's going on in

20:55

their adult life. Plus, the

20:58

emotionally immature parent has very low

21:00

empathy. It's not that

21:03

they don't have any empathy. They're

21:05

not psychopaths. I'm

21:07

sure some of them, but

21:09

they're not any social personality disorders.

21:11

They have some empathy, but they

21:14

use it when

21:16

they're feeling very well

21:18

resourced. You know, when

21:20

things are going well, that's when they

21:22

can afford to tune into

21:24

their kid with some empathy. And of course,

21:27

that means that sometimes they do, which makes

21:29

it even more confusing to the child, because

21:32

they're saying, well, I know that mom

21:35

or dad can connect with

21:38

me, but they didn't

21:40

this time. So what did I do wrong?

21:42

Yeah, I must have done something wrong. Again, there's

21:44

that like positioning of who were the fault

21:46

is. Yeah, exactly. But

21:49

that inability to

21:51

get an empathic response

21:55

means that whatever's going

21:57

on with them at their authentic self,

22:00

level has to

22:02

be kind of curated

22:05

before it is taken to the

22:07

parent in order to avoid the

22:10

experience of devastating

22:12

rejection or no

22:14

response or withdrawal.

22:18

Okay, because that all says I

22:20

am alone in the universe and

22:23

there's no hope for connection and somehow

22:25

I've got to solve this huge

22:28

problem completely on my own.

22:31

So what the child learns is they

22:33

learn how to approach the parent at

22:37

the right angle, at the right time, with

22:40

the right role in order

22:43

to trigger nurturing

22:45

or helpful responses from the

22:48

parent. This is

22:50

all happening at a very unconscious

22:53

level. Yeah, totally. But we're

22:55

really good at it. I

22:57

mean, our loosely

23:00

speaking, our right hemisphere is

23:02

excellent at picking up what

23:04

works in an

23:06

interaction. It

23:08

notices facial expressions, it notices

23:10

body posture, it notices tone

23:12

of voice. It

23:15

captures what works to get

23:17

a good response from the

23:19

parent. And again, like

23:21

with defenses, you don't do

23:23

this intentionally. You don't say, oh, I have

23:26

this problem, I'll put on my role self and

23:28

go ask dad. You

23:32

just segue into it. Totally.

23:35

Yeah. So you go into

23:37

your role self, you go talk to dad and

23:39

things go better and then that's

23:41

reinforced. But the role

23:43

self is something that really

23:45

is based on Donald Winnicott. He

23:47

was a British psychoanalyst and pediatrician

23:50

who had just incredibly astute observations

23:52

of mothers and babies. He's the

23:54

one who came up with good

23:56

enough mother, but he called it

23:58

the fault self. And

24:00

he said that you know that the

24:03

baby is tasked with

24:05

finding a way to relate to the

24:07

mother or them or the we

24:09

say the nurturing parent and In

24:12

order to do that they find

24:14

these ways of relating That

24:17

are not true to their

24:19

actual needs or their actual

24:22

emotional state and I

24:25

call it the role self because I

24:28

think it extends into

24:30

the world of interconnected

24:33

relationships within the family

24:36

and it really is finding your

24:38

slot finding a place Where

24:41

you can exist with some individuality?

24:44

But in a way that the parent

24:47

can Understand

24:49

it know and

24:51

relate to it and isn't

24:53

threatened by it So

24:56

when you are able to do that you

24:58

have a higher chance of getting more Nurturance

25:01

and eliciting more patient responses

25:03

from the parent, but

25:06

it's at the cost of You

25:10

being able to connect with your

25:13

own true feelings and your own

25:15

true thoughts Yeah,

25:17

you're you're choosing safety over authenticity is maybe

25:19

like a very kind of tight way. That's

25:21

a great way to put it. Thank you

25:24

and On

25:27

the one hand there's a very tidy

25:29

behavioral explanation for all of this kids

25:32

have certain behaviors Some of those behaviors are

25:34

reinforced by their parents and some of them

25:36

are disincentivized They go to the parent with

25:39

one kind of look on their face and they are

25:41

punished for that look They go to the parent with

25:43

a different kind of look on their face and they

25:45

are not punished for that look So you

25:47

learn to take on those kinds of behaviors and

25:50

we know that the behaviors that we adopt

25:52

in childhood have a very long Pale they're

25:54

very powerful behaviors brain is very

25:56

malleable. It really sets the tone for

25:59

what we do later on in life. So

26:01

on the one hand there's this kind of behavioral explanation for the

26:03

whole thing. On the

26:05

other hand, I'm very interested in

26:07

the slightly warm and fuzzier explanation

26:09

for the whole thing that gets

26:11

to how you think about the

26:14

existence of a true authentic self

26:16

that is playing in

26:19

the background as the person adopts

26:21

these various behaviors. Because

26:23

at least what I've seen in my own

26:25

life is that sometimes we can adopt a

26:27

real self that we understand is very functional

26:30

and that we're kind of 90% bought into.

26:33

But there's this 10% of a person that feels

26:37

that something is not quite right. And

26:40

that's the part of us that

26:42

can start to fall into what

26:44

you call a healing fantasy, where

26:47

we start to construct this kind of story

26:49

of our life about what would make things

26:51

better or what would allow us to access

26:53

that authenticity in a different kind

26:55

of way. Because we feel stymied in that

26:57

self-expression because we've gotten so wrapped up

26:59

in the behavior of the role of self. And

27:02

I think that really gets to some of

27:04

the material that you explore more in disentangling

27:06

from emotionally immature people, which

27:08

feels to me is in a lot

27:10

of ways about exploring that more

27:13

authentic form of self-expression, which

27:15

then moves away from the behaviors that

27:17

are keeping you trapped in relationships with

27:20

these people who just kind of aren't good for

27:22

you anymore. So for starters, is that a fair

27:24

characterization here? And then what do you think about

27:26

that? Yeah, no, I

27:28

totally agree. I'm of the

27:30

warm and fuzzy mindset too,

27:34

because I think it's

27:36

true. I mean, I really

27:38

do think that each of us has,

27:41

you know, where does it come from?

27:43

I don't know. But there

27:46

seems to me to be an

27:48

innate something about each person that

27:51

is intrinsically very

27:53

individual. And that

27:55

we might say is the authentic

27:57

self. And when we are in there,

28:00

authentic self. We have

28:02

vitality, we have energy,

28:05

we have an ability

28:07

to have feelings for other people,

28:09

we have the capacity for joy,

28:12

but most of all we

28:14

have we have a

28:16

good spontaneous energy

28:18

to us where

28:20

it feels like we're all of a piece.

28:24

I have experienced that with my

28:26

clients when they begin

28:28

to move from the, you

28:31

know, sort of like the life raft of

28:34

their role self and

28:36

then I'm talking about in the therapy sessions,

28:39

you know, they start out usually

28:41

kind of in their role self

28:43

presenting what they think will enable

28:46

a good relationship with this therapist

28:48

person who's kind of like an authority

28:50

figure at that point. Totally. Yeah,

28:53

and then gradually, gradually

28:55

it's like they start

28:57

climbing on board and

28:59

they are able to

29:02

be more themselves and

29:04

to respond in this more lively,

29:07

I mean it truly is more

29:09

lively, spontaneous way

29:12

and they start saying things that surprise

29:14

them and surprise

29:16

me because it's so true

29:19

about them. I'm,

29:22

you know, completely absorbed in what

29:24

they're saying because there's a real

29:26

connection happening. I'm

29:29

wondering how you've seen that that

29:31

role self which are also just like

29:33

the patterns that a person has created

29:35

of their behavior based on early experiences

29:38

affect the kinds of relationships that

29:40

people with emotionally immature parents have

29:42

in adulthood. Well, we

29:45

use what we think works. If

29:48

we have learned that

29:50

that being needy or

29:53

needing to talk to people about our

29:55

problems or reach out for help or

29:57

any of those things. If we

29:59

learn that they're not going to get

30:02

us love and acceptance, we

30:04

may start out in our adult

30:06

relationships being very careful to keep

30:10

our new relationship by not

30:12

being too demanding or

30:14

too needy or whatever.

30:18

And so we're starting off the

30:20

relationship in a role self. And

30:22

again, are we doing this deliberately?

30:24

No, no way. We're

30:26

doing it in spite of ourselves,

30:29

because we see hope for

30:31

this relationship. And we

30:33

want to put our best foot forward. Okay.

30:37

And that can work for

30:39

a long time. The

30:42

problem is that, you know, if you

30:44

think about it in terms of inner

30:46

parts, like the, you know, kind of

30:48

the multiplicity of personality, there's

30:50

an inner child in there that's, you

30:53

know, like, waiting, you know,

30:55

like, when do we get to come out? When

30:57

do we get to find out, you know, if

31:00

this person can really be there for us? Like,

31:02

oh, boy, you know, maybe they'll, they'll

31:05

be different, maybe we'll have a chance

31:07

with them. And

31:09

when that young child

31:11

part of us, the part that

31:13

has been emotionally lonely, that has

31:15

not been paid enough attention to,

31:17

that may have been emotionally neglected,

31:20

that felt so lonely, begins

31:22

to come out, that

31:25

person, unfortunately, can

31:28

expect their new partner

31:30

to be able to

31:32

give them everything that they

31:34

didn't get when they were a

31:36

child. So it's

31:39

unfortunate because you start out

31:42

in this kind of, I'll

31:44

do all the adjusting, you know,

31:46

in order to have this relationship. But

31:50

at some point, when it gets deep enough,

31:53

there can be this tendency to sort of

31:55

switch that into, if you

31:58

really loved me, you

32:00

would be thinking of me more or you

32:02

would guess what I want. And

32:04

that is completely fair for

32:07

a little child to say to their

32:09

parent, if only they could. Of course

32:12

they don't. But that's a fair request

32:14

of a child to a parent. I

32:17

want you to guess what I need because

32:19

I don't have the language or the concepts

32:21

to do that. I want

32:23

you to know what's good for me and

32:25

do it without having to

32:28

have me put it into words for

32:30

you. And when that

32:32

part comes out later, that

32:34

partner may be surprised.

32:38

What happened to the nice, compliant

32:40

person? I've established a relationship

32:42

with him up to this point. Yeah, I

32:44

thought I signed up for this. I'm getting

32:46

that. What's going on here? Yeah,

32:49

well, what's happening is that that inner child,

32:51

it's like mission accomplished. You

32:53

made that person feel safe enough that

32:57

that child part is now poking

32:59

its head out to

33:01

see if they can

33:03

really be loved by

33:05

showing the unmet need, showing the

33:08

unmet expectation. And

33:14

when people can realize

33:17

that that's what's happening, like especially

33:19

if one or the

33:21

other partner is in some kind of therapy

33:23

or some kind of self-awareness-raising

33:27

endeavor, then

33:29

maybe somebody can figure out

33:32

that this is an attempt

33:35

to be more genuine and authentic, that

33:37

these old needs are coming up. Now,

33:40

does the person need to realize that

33:43

that's kind of an unfair

33:46

thing to expect the other

33:48

person to guess at? Yeah,

33:50

absolutely. But if we

33:53

can create a space for

33:55

that emotionally immature

33:57

part of ourselves that

33:59

didn't get yet to have that if we can

34:01

create a space for that to be accepted, while

34:04

we learn more mature ways of asking

34:06

for it, you know, with

34:08

some grace for the other person to

34:10

make that transition from, you

34:13

know, our ideal self or our

34:15

role self to our needy child

34:17

self, you know, it can all work out. But

34:20

that's a few enter a relationship or

34:22

enter a friendship. In

34:24

some cases, you can work through some of those issues and

34:27

friendships where you have enough safety

34:29

to do that. And that's often with not

34:31

an emotionally immature person. But I'm

34:33

wondering if people who have emotionally

34:35

immature caregivers, if you found they tend

34:37

to be more likely to

34:40

wind up in relationships or friendships or

34:42

just surround themselves with more emotionally

34:44

immature people in adulthood, like do you think

34:46

there's a connection there? Yeah,

34:48

I do. Because I think that when

34:51

you grow up as a child with emotionally

34:53

immature parents, you

34:55

have to realize that you are learning a

34:58

whole set of skills. Yeah, totally.

35:01

You know, once you have an

35:03

ability, I love this

35:05

concept, it comes from, so I

35:08

think his first name is Clifford Anderson in

35:10

the stages of life. And he talks about

35:13

how, as we develop,

35:16

it's as though these new

35:18

abilities come online, you know,

35:21

at different ages or different levels of

35:23

maturity. When we attain

35:26

a certain level of ability,

35:30

it becomes a need. It's

35:33

almost like if you can

35:35

do, you know, a jackknife

35:37

off a diving board,

35:40

seeing a diving board will elicit

35:42

the need to do a

35:45

jackknife off it. I

35:47

know it's me. Yeah, totally. Because you

35:49

have the ability, and our

35:51

abilities are always itching to

35:53

be exercised. They really

35:55

are. So here

35:58

you are as a child who grew up with a... a

36:00

certain kind of personality and certain

36:02

kind of parent and you

36:05

develop these abilities to deal with it.

36:07

Well, now there are needs and

36:10

we want to exercise them. Now,

36:12

some of us might go

36:14

into therapy as a career because

36:16

it allows us to exercise at all. I

36:22

think Alice Miller would have something to say about

36:24

that. I'm sure you're familiar with the drama of

36:26

the gifted child, which is one of my absolute

36:28

favorite books and essentially the first chapter of it,

36:30

it's this very short book, is

36:32

like why people end up becoming therapists and

36:34

her sort of underlying theory was exactly what

36:37

you just said. Yes. So

36:40

I think people get into

36:42

adult relationships that allow them

36:45

to be their best selves. Okay,

36:47

because it's fun to exercise our

36:49

abilities, which now feel like needs.

36:52

It's energizing. It brings more energy

36:55

into our system to be able

36:57

to use that. So

37:00

we start up the relationship. It

37:02

feels familiar. We all, I'm good

37:05

at this. It's working well.

37:08

And that is often done

37:10

through that role self. And

37:13

it isn't until later

37:15

that the real

37:17

self, the true self starts

37:20

to raise its head,

37:23

so to speak, and want

37:25

to come out more, to be

37:27

more a part of your life

37:29

and more involved in the relationship.

37:32

And when that happens, you

37:34

begin to feel

37:37

dissatisfied with the level of

37:39

the relationship at the role self level.

37:42

And so you may end up

37:44

then being authentic at

37:46

times that can be very surprising,

37:49

even shocking to your partner, because

37:52

it's like, wait a minute. I haven't seen

37:54

this side of you before. So sooner

37:57

or later.

38:00

it's like the truth will out,

38:02

it's like the real self, the

38:05

true self will try to become

38:07

a conscious part of your relationship,

38:09

which is supposed to be, that's what's

38:11

supposed to happen. It's just that nobody

38:14

is very artful about

38:16

making that transition. And

38:18

so that's why I think

38:20

it's so important for us to

38:22

understand about role selves and how

38:25

normal and really talented

38:27

they are, and

38:29

to have some understanding

38:32

and compassion for our partners

38:35

that they may have some catching

38:37

up to do when we begin to

38:39

show more of our true selves.

38:41

It doesn't mean that they

38:44

aren't loved or that the relationship is

38:46

on a bad footing. It means I'm

38:48

taking a risk with you. You

38:51

feel safe enough to me to

38:53

let me try to go one step

38:55

further. And unfortunately, when

38:58

you get hooked up with somebody

39:00

who is truly

39:02

emotionally immature and

39:05

you try to take it that one step further,

39:08

they don't want to have anything to do with that

39:11

because emotionally immature people,

39:13

this is another hallmark

39:15

characteristic, are really

39:17

scared of intense emotion and

39:20

they're really scared of emotional intimacy. So

39:23

when you try to go to them with

39:25

something real and true about how you're

39:27

feeling and you show that to them,

39:31

they will do something to shut you

39:33

down or they will ignore

39:35

you or they will withdraw. And

39:39

that is, of course, devastating

39:41

because now you've taken a chance. And

39:45

typically what the adult child does

39:47

is they keep trying. Here's where

39:49

the healing fantasy comes in. They

39:52

keep trying to get the person

39:54

to give

39:57

them what they need to heal. would

40:00

be to make that connection, to

40:02

listen to their feelings, let

40:04

them get it out, let them form

40:06

that deep attachment at the basis of

40:09

the real self, on the basis of the real self.

40:12

And, you know, if the person can do it,

40:15

everything goes up a notch. But

40:18

if the person can't do it, you know,

40:21

it becomes extremely frustrating to

40:23

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say, Lindsay, that somebody has been listening to

45:09

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45:12

They see some of the features that you're

45:14

describing maybe in their caregivers. They're

45:17

really familiar with

45:20

some of the experiences that you're describing in

45:22

childhood. They are maybe

45:24

looking at some of their behavior and either going,

45:27

yes, absolutely, I know that I do

45:29

this in terms of those real self

45:31

behaviors, or they're

45:33

at the very least kind of looking back and going, huh,

45:35

yeah, that sounds like it could be the case. Now

45:38

here they are. They've popped out

45:40

into adulthood, and they

45:42

want to start working on some of

45:44

these patterns that have been created. What

45:47

advice would you give them? The first

45:50

thing I would tell somebody who

45:52

was facing that, now I'm assuming

45:54

that this would be in

45:57

the way that you're asking, this would not be... as

46:00

a part of ongoing therapy where you have

46:02

the time and the luxury of you know

46:05

working this through in some kind of long-range

46:07

way, but basically

46:09

the idea is pay

46:12

attention to Your

46:15

true self pay attention to

46:17

your authentic reactions to

46:19

what you really feel Because

46:22

if you can make a connection to

46:24

yourself You can

46:27

then be more authentic in the

46:29

relationship and it gives the relationship

46:31

a chance to become something that

46:33

is more real

46:35

and has a solid footing

46:39

many times it's hard for adult children

46:41

of emotionally mature parents to take

46:45

that step of Trying

46:47

out more active ways

46:49

of being themselves in

46:51

the relationship because

46:53

they've learned to be kind of passive

46:55

and Incidentally,

46:58

I never use that word with my

47:00

clients because in the American culture passive

47:02

is like a bad word you

47:05

know, everybody is supposed to be active and assertive

47:07

all the time, so you say a You

47:10

know basically neutral word like passive

47:13

and people, you know feel horrible

47:15

about that So I

47:17

only use it as a conceptual shorthand here

47:20

but basically they learn to hang

47:22

back and not take action and

47:25

one of the the things that is the

47:28

hardest for them to learn is What

47:32

is it that you want? What's

47:35

the outcome that you are

47:37

headed toward or that you want to

47:39

head toward? Where are

47:41

you going with this? And if

47:44

you can identify that You

47:48

then have a chance to identify What

47:50

can you do or what can you

47:53

try? That

47:55

would be an active step toward

47:57

taking your relationship more to that

48:00

kind of level. So

48:02

you're helping them to, you

48:05

know, first of all, figure out

48:07

what they feel, what they want.

48:09

You know, secondly, translate that

48:12

into some kind of outcome that

48:14

they want. Maybe they want a

48:16

more emotionally intimate relationship. And

48:18

then what would you have to

48:20

do in order to

48:22

raise the odds of that happening? In

48:26

this situation, can you think of anything

48:28

else that you might have been able

48:30

to do that would have

48:32

gotten you more, more of a

48:34

response that you were looking for? That

48:37

being said, if they're with

48:39

an emotionally immature person, it doesn't

48:42

necessarily mean that it's going to work.

48:45

Yeah, totally. Yeah. So we're ready.

48:47

We're ready for that. But you

48:50

still can get so much mileage

48:53

out of practicing. Let me

48:55

get in touch with myself. Let me not

48:57

be confused about who I am and what

48:59

I want, first of all. And

49:02

then let me figure out

49:04

what I'm really after. Let

49:07

me get a concept here about what

49:09

that is. And then

49:11

let me think about what I can do. Even

49:14

if you don't end up in

49:16

that same relationship, you are learning

49:19

how to turn back to yourself

49:22

instead of trying to please

49:24

the other person or trying

49:26

to pacify the other person.

49:29

And that skill, that ability to turn

49:31

back to yourself and figure out what

49:33

you want and how to take some

49:35

positive steps toward it, you

49:38

can carry that with you for the rest of your

49:40

life. And you can actually get

49:42

some great practice in relationship

49:44

with emotionally immature people in adulthood

49:47

that can pay off big later. Totally.

49:50

And for somebody, I would

49:52

love to turn to the disentangling side of

49:54

the spectrum, because I think you're starting to

49:56

speak to that here, basically, where

49:58

almost everyone

50:01

is going to have a relationship of

50:03

some kind in their life, romantic

50:05

or otherwise, with somebody who

50:08

falls into the emotionally immature side of

50:10

the spectrum that you were talking about

50:12

at the very beginning of our conversation

50:14

here. For starters, because there

50:16

are natural distributions and we have lots of different

50:18

kinds of relationships with lots of different kinds of

50:20

people, we're going to bump into people who are

50:22

like this. If you

50:24

find yourself in a relationship with that

50:26

sort of person, and I'm using relationship in the

50:29

general sense of the world, I don't just mean

50:31

romantic relationship. What do you think starts

50:34

helping people establish the

50:36

separation or the boundaries that they need in

50:39

order to be able to bring more

50:41

of that authentic self forward in

50:43

a way that feels kind of safe for them? First,

50:46

you'd notice that it hurts.

50:50

I remember when I was in grade school and

50:52

the teacher of ours said something about, you

50:54

know, there are people who have this disorder

50:56

where they can't feel pain. And

50:59

I don't know, maybe we were in the fourth grade or something and

51:01

she was saying, you know, wouldn't that be terrible? And we

51:03

were all like, what do you mean? That would be great.

51:05

Nothing would ever hurt you. And then she began to talk

51:09

about how, you know, if you, well,

51:11

what happens if you, you know, burn your

51:13

hand, but you don't feel the heat. And,

51:15

you know, she went into and then it

51:17

was sort of like, it was such an

51:19

eye opening experience that I remember

51:21

like, Oh, it could be

51:23

a bad thing not to be

51:26

able to feel pain. Well, this

51:29

is the same thing. The first

51:32

step in getting out of

51:34

an entangled or

51:36

enmeshed relationship. And by that,

51:39

I mean you are being emotionally

51:41

coerced and controlled by somebody

51:43

else's emotional needs or, or

51:45

even, you know, it could

51:47

be narcissistic needs, but

51:49

basically you're responsible for their

51:52

self esteem and you're responsible for

51:55

their emotional stabilization. That's

51:57

what I'm calling an enmeshed relationship.

51:59

you are being emotionally

52:02

used for somebody

52:04

else's psychological purposes.

52:08

So when you are in that kind of

52:11

relationship and you've been conditioned

52:13

from childhood to think that that's normal,

52:16

you may not even feel the pain of

52:19

being treated that way, of

52:22

being emotionally coerced, shamed, guilted,

52:25

made to feel self-doubt, made to feel

52:27

afraid. It may not

52:29

even register on you that that's what

52:31

you're going through. So

52:34

the first job in therapy

52:36

or in self-realization is

52:38

to be able to

52:41

feel that it hurts

52:44

in one way or another. This doesn't

52:46

feel comfortable. I don't like this. This

52:49

is bad for me. My

52:51

energy goes down when this

52:53

happens. I feel drained. I'm

52:55

exhausted by this. And

52:58

you are really trying

53:00

to get back your innate

53:03

ability to feel when something

53:06

is not good for your life

53:08

energy. When

53:10

you can do that, this stuff starts to

53:12

rub you the wrong way. It

53:15

begins to feel like, well, wait a minute.

53:18

Is this fair? Is this

53:20

kind? Am I being treated

53:22

well? Is

53:24

my individuality being allowed? You

53:27

start to ask questions when something

53:29

doesn't feel good. That

53:32

is often the first step

53:34

in a person regaining their

53:37

connection to their true self is

53:40

that ability to begin

53:42

to feel what it's like

53:45

to have somebody do that to you

53:48

and to be used in that way. Nobody

53:51

likes that. Animals don't like that. Another

53:54

piece of this that I've really heard you emphasize is,

53:56

and we've talked about it a bit on the podcast

53:58

in the past, is how big... Part of this

54:01

process for people can be letting go

54:03

of the ceiling fantasies he really summer

54:05

attachment to the wishes that we. For.

54:08

A certain kind of relationship with this

54:10

other person. Often relationships

54:12

with mostly amateur people can actually start

54:14

very intense and selling them kind of

54:16

away. It's sort of like being selected

54:18

by as a as a narcissist favorite

54:21

person. In a it it's really hard

54:23

to find a match. The emotional intensity

54:25

like as channeled your way and that

54:27

him for a time at least really

54:29

feel very good. Very rewarding. But.

54:32

Over time you realize that you're just not

54:34

gonna get the blood from that stone that

54:36

you've been craving this whole time. But.

54:39

That craving. It. Is

54:41

itself kind of the problem. After a little

54:43

wow, you really want that sang and letting

54:45

go of that can be very difficult for

54:48

people. Yeah. And

54:50

what a treat it

54:52

as to be loved

54:55

bombed if if you

54:57

have not gotten adequate

54:59

attention or response to.

55:02

Your. Needs are your individuality

55:04

and along comes a person

55:06

with some narcissistic features. And

55:09

of course, the whole basis of

55:12

narcissism is that things are either

55:14

idealized or their debased so at

55:16

the beginning of relationships. A

55:18

partner is always idealized.

55:21

Because. That's.

55:24

A reflection of who

55:26

the narcissistic person wants.

55:28

To be well as and wants

55:30

to be like. And so.

55:33

Oh. It's it's like

55:36

intoxicating. For a child

55:38

of emotionally immature parents,

55:40

To. The the apple of someone's I like sad

55:42

to see them light open. You

55:45

know, over a year to to think. That. You

55:47

are special and unique.

55:51

I mean. Is it's every saying

55:53

that that person is probably ever

55:55

wanted. So we

55:57

have to. Respect them.

56:00

And how are you in as it serves like.

56:02

When. You're starving to death like a

56:04

unit. Think about which pay for your

56:07

pride came from. Like you

56:09

have no discriminatory powers at that

56:11

moment at all. You.

56:13

Are just hundred or one of. Us.

56:16

So is it Narcissistic attention

56:18

is a healthy attention. So T

56:21

or I'll take the it doesn't matter

56:23

of death as disarming about on bit.

56:25

Been there mans? Yeah, totally. We've all

56:27

been there. So

56:30

what he sent have super let go of those

56:32

those fantasies the they have around haven't worked with

56:34

just a ton of people around this isis. Pain.

56:40

You. Know that there is a story about

56:42

a i'm a guru and his disciples and

56:44

one day his disciples come to him and

56:46

they say oh master you know you let

56:49

us to enlightenment and we're so lucky and

56:51

nipple what about all the other people in

56:53

the world who never got to meet you

56:55

in Africa tear your message. How

56:57

will they learn? How will they

57:00

evolve? And. The master said

57:02

by the quip of pain. So.

57:06

That's what happens. we

57:08

are. Fortunate

57:10

enough. That. We have

57:12

this inner ability to seal when

57:15

things are not good for our

57:17

life force. That's why I keep

57:19

using that. That allusion to energy

57:21

or energy goes up or energy

57:24

goes down. And there's nothing you

57:26

can do about it. You. You either

57:28

a like something or you don't like something.

57:30

That you will get a

57:32

very distinct signature. Off.

57:35

Of your experiences. If you

57:37

are tuned in. To your own

57:39

sense of self and what raises

57:41

are lowers your energy. So.

57:44

When. People begin this

57:47

process. They will start

57:49

to report things that bother them.

57:52

And they are often very embarrassed about it

57:54

and they'll likes to say and I know

57:56

this is a silly thing. I shouldn't even

57:58

be bringing this up. You know other people

58:01

have so many more important problems than I

58:03

do. They'll do what has been done

58:05

to them by

58:07

sort of dismissing or minimizing

58:09

the problem and Then

58:11

I always am like dying to hear what they're

58:14

gonna say next because I know it's gonna be

58:16

big Okay, and then

58:18

they say this thing and it's

58:20

connected up to some of the

58:22

you know The deepest hurt

58:24

and the deepest unmet need that they

58:27

have and we're beginning to

58:29

get closer to that They're beginning to

58:31

bring it in and

58:33

when we can realize what it's about we

58:37

can Explore that and allow

58:39

them to get into the feeling like

58:41

the first thing they're always doing therapy

58:43

for us is I'm always

58:45

asking people like let's just hang on

58:47

a second Can you go

58:50

into that feeling and report to

58:52

me from in there? Like

58:54

let's just slow it way

58:57

down super slow-mo camera, you know

58:59

and let's

59:01

sample what you feel and

59:04

they will Once they

59:07

can slow down they will begin

59:09

to start to expand the feeling

59:12

experience in the moment

59:14

and Then they you

59:16

know, it's like they've walked into the room

59:18

they they can see how

59:21

really Impactful

59:23

this has been for them or continues

59:25

to be for them. It's not a

59:28

little thing. It's a huge thing And

59:31

they have an intuition That this

59:33

is important to mention in therapy, but all

59:35

their training has been You're

59:38

too sensitive. You make mountains out

59:40

of molehills. You misunderstood that You

59:43

know, they're made to feel bad about their

59:46

internal perceptions their their

59:49

awarenesses And

59:51

it feels it feels like you're

59:53

highlighting that this underlying sense of guilt

59:56

that people can have about feeling

59:59

the way that that they feel, whether it's

1:00:01

exactly as you're describing it here or the

1:00:04

guilt that other people in a system, maybe

1:00:06

those more emotionally immature people, can place

1:00:09

on them as a means of

1:00:11

control, as a way to

1:00:13

coerce behavior and to stop

1:00:15

that other person from establishing whatever

1:00:18

distance they need in order to start accessing

1:00:20

these healthier parts of their personality. That's

1:00:23

a really good point. I love that what

1:00:25

you're saying about the distance they need. I

1:00:29

think of it in terms of when they're trying

1:00:31

to decide how much contact to

1:00:33

have with the emotionally immature person,

1:00:35

and I use the phrase optimal

1:00:38

distance. It's like you

1:00:40

are free to find that place where

1:00:43

it works for you, where it's

1:00:45

not too much and it's not too

1:00:47

little, but it's sort of like

1:00:49

that optimal distance. But

1:00:51

part of the appeal of

1:00:54

having that distance is that

1:00:56

emotionally immature people, they use

1:00:59

a lot of emotional coercion. I

1:01:01

mentioned the shame and the guilt and the self-doubt

1:01:03

and the fear, but they do

1:01:05

it with a heavy load

1:01:09

of moral obligation. It

1:01:13

moves from psychological and emotional into

1:01:15

the moral realm, and

1:01:17

a person gets the message

1:01:19

that if they were a good

1:01:22

person, they would do this thing

1:01:24

for them, and that if you won't do what

1:01:26

I want you to do, well,

1:01:28

you had a moral obligation to do that,

1:01:30

to give me what I want, and since

1:01:33

you didn't, you have a moral

1:01:35

black mark against you. This

1:01:41

is like getting into, are we

1:01:43

good? Are we bad? Am

1:01:45

I a good person? They

1:01:48

give the message, no, you're

1:01:50

not unless I'm happy. When

1:01:54

people begin to expose

1:01:56

that to themselves, it

1:01:59

is such a freeing

1:02:02

experience because it

1:02:04

unhooks that moral obligation

1:02:07

from the fact that the other person is demanding

1:02:10

that you be who they want you to be.

1:02:12

And once you see through

1:02:14

that, that putting

1:02:17

the moral obligation on that, you

1:02:19

are really then free to say to

1:02:22

yourself, well, is this fair

1:02:24

that I have to always be the one

1:02:26

who, you know, meets your

1:02:28

needs? Or is it

1:02:31

true that I have a moral

1:02:33

obligation to lend you money? You

1:02:35

know, you begin to think. Yeah,

1:02:38

I've just seen that over and over

1:02:40

again in my friendships with people who

1:02:42

are going through this process of establishing

1:02:44

more space from the emotionally immature

1:02:46

people in their lives. Often it's

1:02:48

from family members or caregivers, but

1:02:51

sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's from exes

1:02:53

or people they're currently in

1:02:55

a romantic relationship with or whatever else.

1:02:57

That moral component is just such a

1:03:00

huge control that we have

1:03:02

over the behavior of other people. And it's

1:03:04

a very, very powerful kind of stick to

1:03:06

wield inside of a relationship that you're going

1:03:08

after somebody with. And this is

1:03:10

often complicated by the fact that

1:03:13

that person that you were describing, who

1:03:15

maybe was raised by a more emotionally

1:03:18

immature caregiver, they've now entered some

1:03:20

kind of a relationship. Maybe it's romantic, maybe

1:03:22

it's just a friendship with somebody where

1:03:24

they're getting some of those things that they wanted. They're

1:03:26

not getting all of them, but they're getting some of

1:03:29

them. They're getting some of that attention, some of that

1:03:31

care, some of that ability

1:03:33

to express themselves. And now

1:03:35

as they've gone through this process of growth,

1:03:37

they maybe start to realize, I'm not going

1:03:39

to get the blood that I really want

1:03:41

from this particular now. And

1:03:43

so they have to now establish some separation,

1:03:47

but they're getting some of

1:03:49

what they want. So there are these

1:03:51

fears that accompany it of rejection

1:03:53

and abandonment, where the person goes,

1:03:56

well, if I separate from this situation, am

1:03:58

I ever going to find something

1:04:00

even this good again in my life. And

1:04:03

for somebody who had those more emotionally immature

1:04:05

caregivers, like, wow, that's a powerful fear because

1:04:07

you're just never sure if you're really gonna

1:04:09

get that. And now you've got like a little

1:04:11

taste of it, but maybe not the whole thing. I'm

1:04:14

wondering how you've worked with people around

1:04:16

those fears that they might have of

1:04:19

not getting that emotional thing that they

1:04:21

want, that they're getting a little bit

1:04:23

of here, but they're really not getting

1:04:25

enough of. Well, that

1:04:27

could be a very lonely and scary time

1:04:33

for somebody because yes,

1:04:36

it's like, why would

1:04:38

I wanna let go of one life preserver

1:04:40

before I had to grab the next one?

1:04:42

But then the question becomes, what

1:04:45

about if you put your own life preserver on?

1:04:48

I mean, the question is, how about

1:04:50

if you work on your relationship with

1:04:52

yourself, okay, before you

1:04:55

go looking for the other life

1:04:57

preserver, how about

1:04:59

if we look at this

1:05:01

as you're going through a period of

1:05:03

development and growth within yourself. So

1:05:07

it's not that you're alone and

1:05:09

you've lost your chance to have

1:05:11

something, some part of what you really

1:05:13

want. How about if we figure

1:05:15

out what it is that you really

1:05:17

need and you turn

1:05:19

your attention to yourself and

1:05:22

maybe as a result of that,

1:05:25

you'll be able to recognize the

1:05:27

people that are gonna be more

1:05:30

compatible with you or more

1:05:33

congenial with you. You

1:05:36

can approach it that way. But

1:05:38

another thing that often happens

1:05:42

is, going back to that thing about, once

1:05:45

you develop an ability, it turns into

1:05:47

a need, they have

1:05:49

begun to move on in

1:05:51

their development and the

1:05:53

other person has not kept up

1:05:56

or has not even shown maybe even any

1:05:59

interest in growth. And so

1:06:02

along comes a person who is now

1:06:05

more on this new wavelength

1:06:08

with you. And it's very

1:06:10

compelling because you recognize

1:06:13

that more of you gets

1:06:16

to come into being in this

1:06:18

new relationship. You

1:06:21

can't be happy with somebody

1:06:24

who is not able

1:06:27

to enjoy the same level of

1:06:29

emotional intimacy that you are. It's

1:06:31

just very incompatible

1:06:34

after a certain point.

1:06:37

This is a question we could do a whole

1:06:39

other podcast on and we're toward

1:06:41

the end of it here, but maybe

1:06:43

as just a cliff notes, I'm so

1:06:45

interested in what

1:06:48

helps people identify themselves

1:06:51

as a secure base, which is basically

1:06:53

what you were talking about a moment ago. You were

1:06:55

talking about how the shifting to

1:06:57

the view of the self as the thing

1:06:59

from which you get that relationship that you

1:07:01

really needed. You're in relationship with yourself in

1:07:04

this way and you're developing that good connection.

1:07:06

What do you think supports people in doing

1:07:08

that? I think it's, first

1:07:10

of all, I think it's the knowledge that

1:07:14

it's there. Unfortunately, in

1:07:18

our culture, and this is

1:07:20

probably any culture that

1:07:22

is industrialized, technological,

1:07:25

we really have a model of

1:07:27

people as being more like machines

1:07:30

or technology computers.

1:07:33

And we don't really

1:07:35

acknowledge the inner world in

1:07:37

a way that I

1:07:40

think it needs to be because I think it's very

1:07:42

real. And in that

1:07:44

inner world, that's where the true

1:07:47

self resides. That's where

1:07:49

the sense of self

1:07:51

resides. So when

1:07:53

you're in a culture that doesn't value

1:07:55

the inner world, except when it makes

1:07:58

money, like if you're creative, and

1:08:00

you're in the arts and you make money at your

1:08:02

art, that's very cool. Okay.

1:08:05

But it all has to be quantified.

1:08:07

As we quantified, it has to be

1:08:10

materialized in productive

1:08:13

or profitable ways for us

1:08:15

to take it seriously. So

1:08:17

when you come in as a therapist,

1:08:21

but you could come in as a good friend,

1:08:23

you could come in as

1:08:25

a good mate and you support

1:08:27

that inner world of that person

1:08:31

to let them know that there really is

1:08:33

something inside them. And it

1:08:35

really does matter. Okay. That's

1:08:37

where your meaning comes from. Then

1:08:41

you have the ability to increase

1:08:43

that sense of a secure base

1:08:46

in just being connected

1:08:49

with yourself. But of

1:08:51

course it's a process to

1:08:53

do that. And nobody

1:08:55

that I know is going to

1:08:57

be particularly happy just

1:08:59

with a relationship with themselves. But

1:09:03

the rest of your life

1:09:05

can proceed as you are

1:09:07

building that connection with

1:09:09

yourself. And your outside world

1:09:12

will improve to the

1:09:14

extent that you work on your inner world.

1:09:16

At least that's what I've seen happen. And

1:09:19

people have said to me when they're

1:09:21

finishing therapy, they'll say, you know,

1:09:24

I feel transformed. This has

1:09:27

been a transformation. And

1:09:29

what they're really saying is

1:09:31

I've found myself and

1:09:34

I've transformed my life to

1:09:36

go from defining myself from the

1:09:38

outside in to finding myself

1:09:42

on the inside. I love

1:09:45

that, Lindsay. And I think that's a perfect note

1:09:47

to end our conversation today. So thanks so much

1:09:49

for doing this with me today. I totally enjoyed

1:09:51

this. Oh, it's been such a pleasure. These

1:09:53

questions have been just a

1:09:55

delight to think about. Thank you. Thank

1:09:58

you. I

1:10:00

appreciate that. I

1:10:07

really enjoyed today's conversation with Dr. Lindsey

1:10:09

Gibson. She's the author of Adult Children

1:10:11

of Emotionally Immature Parents, Disentangling

1:10:13

from Emotionally Immature People,

1:10:16

and she recently released a new guided

1:10:18

journal for the adult children of emotionally

1:10:20

immature parents. That just came out

1:10:22

at the beginning of April, and if you enjoyed

1:10:24

today's conversation, I think you'll really like it. We

1:10:27

started today's conversation by talking about

1:10:30

what is emotional immaturity, and

1:10:32

we have this normal model of human development

1:10:34

where we think that as people get older,

1:10:36

they become more developed in a lot of

1:10:38

different ways. They pick up all of these

1:10:41

skills and abilities and understandings about the way

1:10:43

that life works, and that is normally the

1:10:45

case. But sometimes what happens

1:10:47

is people get kind of frozen in

1:10:50

time at a certain stage of development,

1:10:52

and for emotionally immature people, they are

1:10:54

essentially frozen at a younger age.

1:10:57

They have the level of emotional maturity of

1:10:59

more of a 12-year-old or a 13-year-old or

1:11:03

even a 3 or 4-year-old sometimes

1:11:05

than an actual fully fledged adult.

1:11:08

This leads to some common symptoms

1:11:11

that are really quite similar to

1:11:13

those experienced by a young child.

1:11:15

For example, emotionally immature people are

1:11:17

very egocentric in nature. They primarily

1:11:20

view the world through their own

1:11:22

self-preoccupations, and they will swiftly impangle

1:11:24

you in them. They

1:11:26

also tend to have pretty limited empathy.

1:11:28

They don't put themselves in other people's

1:11:30

shoes or imagine their inner experience. They

1:11:33

tend to avoid self-reflection. They can

1:11:36

be very self-justifying, often

1:11:38

self-righteous in nature, and

1:11:40

they rarely question themselves. They

1:11:42

tend to be extreme in

1:11:44

their relationship to emotional intimacy,

1:11:46

either withdrawing emotional intimacy because

1:11:48

they are profoundly uncomfortable with

1:11:50

it or desperately seeking more

1:11:52

emotion from the person that they are

1:11:55

engaging with. They also

1:11:57

use effective realism, which is something that we

1:11:59

talked about in more detail during the conversation

1:12:01

where you define reality based on how you

1:12:04

feel about it rather than how

1:12:06

it actually is. And this

1:12:08

can create a pattern in the behavior

1:12:10

of emotionally immature caregivers where they

1:12:13

make their experience of reality about

1:12:15

the behavior of their children, where

1:12:18

they're responding to their children in the way

1:12:20

they are not because they need to learn

1:12:22

how to better regulate their emotions or become

1:12:24

more resourced in that relationship or access

1:12:27

new tools that maybe they didn't have before

1:12:29

they became a parent. Instead, no,

1:12:31

they just need their child to behave

1:12:33

a little bit differently. And if only

1:12:36

they behaved differently, then everything would go

1:12:38

just fine. And one of

1:12:40

the challenges with a lot of the interactions

1:12:42

that we have with emotionally immature people is

1:12:45

that the things that they say are

1:12:47

to an extent true. They're not total fabrications

1:12:49

a lot of the time. When

1:12:51

things are going well enough for them, when

1:12:54

things are the way that they need

1:12:56

it to be in order to be

1:12:58

emotionally resourced, they can behave like a

1:13:00

mature person. For

1:13:03

example, in this case, maybe that parent really

1:13:05

is able to relate to their child better

1:13:07

when their child behaves in a certain kind

1:13:09

of way. But that's not a

1:13:11

criticism of the child. That's a criticism of

1:13:13

the parent. But the parent has

1:13:15

distorted reality to make it about

1:13:17

the child rather than about themselves.

1:13:22

Children are often very fast learners, and

1:13:25

they learn very quickly that when they

1:13:27

approach their parent a certain kind of

1:13:29

way, things tend to go better. And

1:13:31

when they approach them a different way, they tend to

1:13:33

go more poorly. So what this

1:13:36

does is it inclines them towards

1:13:38

certain patterns of behavior that may

1:13:40

or may not feel authentic to them.

1:13:42

And this is the creation of a role self,

1:13:44

which we talked about in some detail throughout the

1:13:46

conversation. Your

1:13:49

role self is a kind of

1:13:51

pseudo self that allows you to

1:13:53

fill a particular role inside

1:13:55

of your family system. For example,

1:13:57

maybe you learned to

1:14:00

manage your parents' emotions, they responded

1:14:02

to you more positively. If you

1:14:05

were able to keep them happy

1:14:07

and engaged, they were nicer to

1:14:09

you. And so what do you

1:14:11

do? You develop a pattern of behaviors that

1:14:13

becomes about pleasing them. It becomes about meeting

1:14:16

their emotional needs rather than caring about your

1:14:18

own. And what tends

1:14:20

to happen for people just in life in general is

1:14:22

that the patterns that we establish in childhood have a

1:14:24

very long shadow over the rest of our life. So

1:14:27

we've learned these patterns of behavior. And as

1:14:29

Dr. Gibson said, once you've learned

1:14:31

a skill, you want to exercise it in your

1:14:33

life. So what

1:14:36

happens? Well, in adulthood, we start to

1:14:38

look for people or situations that

1:14:40

allow us to exercise that skill,

1:14:42

which is one of the reasons

1:14:44

that people who are raised by

1:14:46

more emotionally immature caregivers tend

1:14:49

to find themselves in relationships

1:14:51

or friendships with emotionally immature

1:14:53

people in adulthood. Now,

1:14:56

it's important to emphasize that this is

1:14:58

occurring subconsciously for most people. They're not

1:15:00

deliberately going through a process of doing

1:15:02

this. It's just kind of happening. But

1:15:05

as it's happening, there's another part of them that's

1:15:07

operating in the background. And that's their

1:15:09

true self. That's their authentic self. And

1:15:12

often what happens is, frankly,

1:15:14

as enough pain in our

1:15:16

relationships accumulates, and I think

1:15:18

it's really important that Dr. Gibson emphasized the role

1:15:21

that discomfort plays in all of this, as

1:15:24

enough pain accumulates, we start to

1:15:26

have the experience that this situation just

1:15:28

isn't good for us, that there's something

1:15:30

else that we really want. And

1:15:33

sometimes at an early stage, what

1:15:35

this could take the form of is a healing fantasy,

1:15:38

a dream that everything would be better if I

1:15:41

was just able to find somebody who

1:15:43

performed this kind of function for me,

1:15:46

who was as emotionally available as I

1:15:48

need, as emotionally intimate as I need,

1:15:51

who was able to care for me the way that I

1:15:53

care for other people, all of that kind

1:15:55

of stuff. And as

1:15:57

we grow into adulthood, we begin to

1:15:59

expect that our closest relationships

1:16:02

will make those healing fantasies come true. And

1:16:05

we might think that our emotional loneliness will finally be

1:16:07

healed by a partner who always thinks

1:16:09

of our needs and who really cares

1:16:11

for us in that deeply relational way that

1:16:14

we're looking for. The

1:16:16

problem is that these fantasies often

1:16:18

keep us trapped in different kinds

1:16:20

of relationships because we constantly keep

1:16:23

on going if only, if only, if only. For

1:16:27

example, Lindsay tells a story in one of the

1:16:29

books about a woman who secretly believed that if

1:16:32

only she could make her depressed father happy, she

1:16:34

would finally be free in her own life to

1:16:36

do what she wanted. And she

1:16:38

didn't realize that she was already free to do

1:16:40

what she wanted in her own life, even

1:16:43

if her father stayed miserable. As

1:16:45

people go through a process of trying to

1:16:48

strengthen their connection with a truer and more

1:16:50

authentic version of who they are, well,

1:16:52

to find healthier relationships, you often

1:16:54

have to disentangle from the less

1:16:56

healthy ones that you are currently

1:16:59

wrapped up in. And

1:17:01

the friction of those unhealthy relationships as

1:17:03

we explore truer aspects of ourselves becomes

1:17:05

more and more noticeable. We start to

1:17:07

experience more pain based on the distance

1:17:10

between the way our relationship

1:17:12

is and what we see as possible

1:17:15

for ourselves. And

1:17:17

as we go through this process of self-discovery,

1:17:19

we often feel more pain inside of the

1:17:21

relationships that are currently going on for us

1:17:23

because we see how big the distance is

1:17:25

between where we want to be and what

1:17:27

we're currently getting. And

1:17:30

one of the problems for people is

1:17:32

that dysfunctional relationships of different kinds, particularly

1:17:34

with emotionally immature people, can

1:17:36

be very difficult to extract our system.

1:17:39

There are a lot of tools used

1:17:42

by controlling systems like guilting people who

1:17:44

are trying to leave or using

1:17:46

a lot of very moral language, making it a

1:17:48

moral fault if you want to get away from

1:17:50

me. Or even leveraging the

1:17:52

fears of abandonment that somebody might have,

1:17:54

the fears that they have inside of

1:17:56

themselves, often based on that lack

1:17:58

of emotional relationship that's they experienced in

1:18:00

childhood that no one will ever actually

1:18:02

love them. And so

1:18:04

in order to bear that pressure that the

1:18:07

system's put on us, we have to be

1:18:09

able to look inside of ourselves and

1:18:11

strengthen the relationship that we have

1:18:14

with that more authentic version. And a key part

1:18:16

of this for many people, and I want to

1:18:18

do more content on this because I think that

1:18:20

it's just such an important piece of the puzzle,

1:18:23

is defining themselves as something with

1:18:25

which they can have a meaningful

1:18:28

relationship. Defining themselves as

1:18:30

a person from which they can

1:18:33

derive safety and security. Because

1:18:35

the story that we tell ourselves so often, and

1:18:37

I don't know if this is an American culture

1:18:40

thing or a Western culture thing or just a

1:18:42

human thing, is that we can

1:18:44

only be safe if we are in a

1:18:46

particular kind of relationship. We can

1:18:48

only derive our safety from things

1:18:50

outside of ourselves. And

1:18:52

as long as we're carrying around that

1:18:54

story, we are inherently at effect.

1:18:58

We are not the masters of our

1:19:00

own lives because our safety, which is

1:19:02

that fundamental need we all have, is

1:19:04

dependent on other people. It's not independent

1:19:06

from them. And again,

1:19:08

the complexity here is that that is

1:19:11

to an extent true. We are dependent

1:19:13

beings. Our relationships are very important to

1:19:15

us. I want to have fulfilling

1:19:17

relationships with other people, and I want to feel

1:19:19

like the environments that I'm in are very safe.

1:19:21

Those are important things for me as a person.

1:19:24

So when we become excessively dependent

1:19:26

on those things, it

1:19:28

becomes harder and harder to

1:19:30

disentangle from even the dysfunctional

1:19:32

systems that we're currently a part of

1:19:35

from which we feel like we're deriving

1:19:37

that safety. And so

1:19:39

this very difficult but very important process

1:19:41

often occurs for people where they look

1:19:43

inside themselves and they start to run

1:19:45

these little tests. What if

1:19:47

I tried doing this thing? What

1:19:50

would happen if I found a little bit

1:19:52

more separation here? Can I trust

1:19:54

myself to keep myself safe in these ways?

1:19:56

Can I trust myself to keep myself comfortable

1:19:59

in these ways? and we start

1:20:01

to prove to ourselves over and over and

1:20:03

over again that we can rely

1:20:05

on ourselves, that we can solve problems,

1:20:07

that we we can find the way

1:20:10

through various difficult

1:20:12

situations. And the development

1:20:14

of that self-efficacy, that belief that we

1:20:16

have in ourselves, is such

1:20:18

an important part of the puzzle here. I

1:20:21

hope you enjoyed today's episode. I really loved it.

1:20:24

I think that Dr. Gibson's work is really

1:20:26

fantastic here. She's also a great speaker

1:20:29

and was just a total natural on

1:20:31

the podcast. So again, if you were

1:20:33

interested in the topics that we explored

1:20:35

during this conversation, I would strongly recommend

1:20:38

her books, particularly Adult Children of Emotionally

1:20:40

Immature Parents and Disentangling from Emotionally Immature

1:20:42

People, and also the new journal

1:20:44

that she recently released if you're looking for

1:20:47

more of a workbook-style experience. If

1:20:49

you've been listening for a while and you have

1:20:52

not subscribed to the podcast yet, hey, please subscribe

1:20:54

to it. We'd really appreciate that. If you're listening

1:20:56

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1:20:58

also on YouTube, and hey, if you're watching on

1:21:00

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1:21:02

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1:21:19

next time, thanks for listening, and I'll talk to you soon.