0:00

she was at a point at our

0:02

and then she vanished and they

0:05

still have no idea where

0:06

they here was

0:12

just unbelievable how feel that that

0:14

area was in water if

0:17

you're feet off a few calculations, are

0:20

put off going to mess up your whole search

0:22

you have to be right on

0:33

hello

0:37

and welcome the best case where sensitive, clemente

0:40

retired, f b former new york city

0:42

prosecutor and consultant

0:44

on the new minds

0:46

on paramount plus season 16,

0:49

and with me cuz

0:51

i'm getting high

0:52

everybody is francey you for

0:54

state and prosecutor and executive

0:56

producer and writer on audible midwest

0:59

monster gym i am so

1:01

excited today we have probably

1:04

our favorite guest ever

1:06

know i say that to lots of our guests

1:08

by the way the i'm sure the truly

1:11

my favorite gas ever be gas it happens

1:13

to be one of my bff i'm

1:15

an [unk]

1:15

in our very own

1:17

yes and our very own and years

1:19

i'll bet your own retired of the hydrogen

1:21

and now screenwriter thanks to

1:24

the inevitable

1:25

mentorship of gym clemente well

1:28

i just love how our very own bobby's

1:30

a cone rhymes and i think that's

1:32

how you should always been an optimist on this our

1:35

very own barbecue com

1:36

raddatz i'm so we were

1:38

here to talk about bobby i'm so glad

1:41

that you're joining us because last week

1:43

gemini covered the case

1:46

of highly rodney and

1:48

we talked to our listeners and our patrons

1:50

of trivers about the case and giving

1:52

them some updates on what had happened

1:54

to this teenage girl who

1:56

seemingly vanished from of

1:59

of mean a large

1:59

rt out in a campground and

2:02

police spent days and days ten

2:04

days are actively looking for her they sent

2:06

dive team the police i came

2:09

to diver a reservoir

2:11

and truckee calif looking

2:13

for her and get just

2:15

nothing nothing she would

2:17

not bother no trace of our cell phone was off

2:19

it was a big mystery were was highly

2:22

rodney what she does was she met with

2:24

foul play and one an important things

2:26

that we talked about bobby and i thought about it at the time

2:28

i thought of you at the time at ,

2:30

this whole idea of the police died came

2:33

because it turned out that highly rod

2:35

nice as you the with her body and

2:37

it were recovered

2:39

by private dive team that

2:41

dove that same truckee reservoir

2:44

shortly after the police dead and

2:46

the police diverse did not find anything

2:49

and these private divers did

2:51

they found her as you the apparently they use

2:53

some sort of sonar and

2:56

they said that the s u v was and fourteen

2:58

feet of water so what i'd like to

3:00

to ask you bobby is the kind of cake

3:03

our listeners through this

3:05

kind of an investigation odd

3:07

so the died in gets called and it

3:09

does not appear to me as the i was called or

3:12

as the i was not able to com we don't know

3:14

the facts and circumstances but we do

3:16

know that the dive team that first searched

3:19

and failed the find kylie was

3:21

the local police departments and you just talk

3:23

about what's going on investigation

3:25

like that and and how those divers go out

3:28

and what the process it

3:30

people and people wondering how

3:32

the sharpens it's it's topic is underwater

3:34

searching is is is

3:36

very niche activity and

3:38

unless you do and a lot

3:41

me too perishable skill that seats

3:43

and particularly it is were

3:45

using so not when using sonar define

3:48

a larger i don't like a vehicle sonar

3:51

operators are a particular breed and

3:53

it's of that's even more of a percival still

3:55

in the diving itself

3:57

and when in case body we have

3:58

what are we have a lot of

3:59

our listeners from other countries are

4:02

and so i'm always very conscious using a term like

4:04

a perishable skill what you mean by that

4:07

skill that need to stay fresh and

4:09

in other words you need to use them a lot to keep them

4:11

press both of those raining and

4:13

extra you need to constantly be using them constantly

4:16

training or possibly down on job when

4:18

i built the up yadav programs the

4:20

reason we limit is a top four teams

4:22

even though there are many more divisions like chicago

4:24

like you said wanna die teams

4:26

we limited to for because we

4:29

did a calculation and we said

4:31

we need the divers that we're going

4:33

to put into this endeavor to

4:35

have an operational tempo to

4:37

have enough activity to keep them busy so

4:39

their skills stay hot so the skills

4:42

they fresh the more teams you have

4:44

the less work for each individual team

4:47

and therefore the less the less

4:49

exercise their skills gap and

4:51

so you really need to be in the water lot that's

4:53

why the up the aisle we had worldwide

4:55

ah the appeal jurisdiction where why with he

4:57

seems with a part of the rapid deployment

4:59

the because overseas and we only have sixty

5:01

diverse or tops worldwide

5:04

and they're always busy arm and

5:06

and they divide they globe up and arms

5:08

of domestically and internationally they're always gonna

5:10

be used as we had more diverse

5:13

the last work the school without

5:15

bobby's it's interesting you say that because we

5:17

use that same principle for slightly

5:20

different reason when we created the rapid

5:22

deployment teams for child abduction the child

5:24

abduction rapid deployment teams we had

5:26

regional team's not only

5:28

so that they would get the experience and keep being

5:31

experienced we didn't want them to have any experience

5:33

obviously but they we knew that

5:35

that was gonna keep happening but we

5:38

realize that there there

5:40

may be attempts in one state

5:43

the abduction of a child

5:45

and then they moved to another state

5:47

nearby

5:49

so we said regionally we want

5:51

people to be experts in the region

5:53

so that will be aware of different things

5:55

are happening so that they

5:57

can employed that expertise in

6:00

the entire region and that oscar

6:02

as picture across jurors across

6:04

state and county and city

6:06

jurisdictions so that way that

6:09

they could actually they would actually

6:11

be com

6:12

sort of

6:13

no ah knowledgeable bill have

6:15

institutional knowledge for that area

6:18

and that's what we want to dwell i may

6:20

sound like you did the same thing yeah and like

6:22

every up the i feel that has a yorkie right evidence

6:24

upon which we call or see of which

6:27

boasts you would know if the see a sides rp are

6:29

people that do crime syndicate your teeth

6:31

and we will haunt about program where the underwater

6:34

evidence response team so i'm

6:36

in order what to search never supposed to my user

6:39

and so on but but even given

6:41

that we were housed with our yard she's

6:43

a in in the respective for division

6:46

, offices are but still we wanted

6:48

to make sure that all of our people states

6:50

as soon stay their skills they pressed

6:53

and so that's right it's called perishable

6:55

skills are you don't use of you lose them you know

6:57

that it would you use it you lose it and so

7:00

sonar is even more been it's which

7:02

in the documentary sonar operators

7:04

sonar is sound waves waves

7:07

into water and then that gets reflected

7:09

back of a different items different items

7:11

have different signatures what we go signatures

7:14

so on signatures the combat depending on

7:16

the ferocity of other of

7:18

an of that the the shining

7:20

as of at the solid the summit whatever is

7:22

the shape of a sense of the so it really

7:24

takes skill to stay adept

7:27

at reading sonar images for sonar is not

7:29

photograph summer shadows

7:31

it's not it's summer white grey black

7:34

color palette that you're trying to define

7:36

and we these very of shadowy

7:38

figures and salary shapes and

7:40

some and so people get very good

7:43

at it if you were a lot and and if

7:45

they don't do a lot they don't get very good

7:47

at it and will they don't stay good

7:49

at unless they stay busy with it so

7:51

i'm in this particular case my

7:53

thought is probably the if they had

7:56

a sonar this is another thing that we

7:58

found while i was building they

8:00

they underwent a friendship program i a

8:02

liaison with people like noah the national

8:04

atmospheric and oceanic administration so i

8:07

i'm you know and people like nasa

8:09

people i see pierre the national park

8:11

service overlaps robust i've been the military

8:14

right and the military of course the navy the army arm

8:17

and ah

8:18

no

8:19

we we we really we liaison

8:22

with these people but we often

8:24

found are yearning for

8:26

and something the fire service has something

8:28

the forensic people have a national standard

8:31

national standards of

8:33

equipment a process but

8:35

you know our of training the

8:37

died the law enforcement guy that doesn't have

8:39

that i was on several commission's on

8:41

and boards and trying to come up with national

8:45

guideline national standards and to this day

8:47

they have a bit of would do it on because

8:49

you know any power of a if some moral

8:51

county sure wants to have his own dodgy

8:54

because it it's rescue to the form the lake

8:56

in in in the town center he's going to have

8:58

that but you can't decide

9:00

to him you have to have a two hundred fifty thousand

9:02

also nord unit and you opt out the deputy

9:04

that uses it every week to say say current

9:08

and so you know it was really became i

9:10

challenge because different departments of

9:12

derby have different budgets and difference manpower

9:15

to eighteen thousand different law

9:17

enforcement yeah in the contrary love now

9:19

the rabbit there was a national standard for firefighters

9:22

and firefighting equipment on there is

9:24

no corresponding standard on

9:27

the dive site bobby

9:29

i'd like i'm also interested i mean i

9:31

speculated but i didn't know the facts

9:34

in this particular case but i'm interested in what

9:36

kind of environmental factors affect

9:38

your ability to search and you know

9:40

i'm thinking rain and sylvan and

9:43

disturbances you know and why yeah

9:45

yeah can we start a little before that

9:48

the certain just before that would just like what

9:50

are the divers told before they ever

9:52

go out i mean what are the conflicting

9:54

pieces of information and then yeah let's talk

9:57

about the conditions they have to deal

9:59

with when they're out

9:59

when we saw that movie star search we try to

10:02

get as much information from

10:04

the enough for you to detectives are

10:06

because like any other specialty we worked for that

10:08

no whether it's forensics

10:10

or or whatever you know or evidence

10:13

recovery we're all we're always working for

10:15

that attack of so thinking the more they can give

10:17

us the more information last

10:19

seen point i'm one of your

10:21

because i've done searches very direct where somebody

10:24

saw something or when the war right at this point i've

10:26

also done hot what we've a hunch searches

10:28

were they run out of everything else and ago

10:30

will there's a lake over there and we don't away

10:32

where it's not over here took a new band with

10:34

him away

10:34

that's what was happening sir bobby because

10:37

i don't think in the highly rodney case they

10:39

had any information on right yeah i mean this was

10:41

just kind of a literal vanishing she

10:43

was at a point at a campground then

10:46

she than sly and

10:49

fine day later they still have no idea

10:50

where where she is she vanished with

10:52

her vehicle yes with her vehicle

10:55

yeah so that's even more trump because she could have

10:57

driven seats away by you know we

10:59

don't know what if you're searching for vehicle

11:01

in a body of water obviously

11:04

if you have shown up with if you don't have sonar you

11:06

can still do or we do we we call a drag

11:08

search in other words there's only a certain amount

11:10

of places that are vehicle can enter the war

11:13

lot of time is a boat ramp or it's you know

11:15

a little bombed goes down so

11:17

you you start where you think it could

11:19

go on the water you put one dies or

11:21

literally a vehicle obviously you

11:24

can put one on with a rope an ally

11:26

and another diver on sure and hold the line

11:28

and he just arcs himself under water and

11:30

eventually you're going to snag a

11:33

only been it's don't argue your your snag a vehicle

11:35

was on the bottom somewhere if you can do it properly

11:37

on the so that's the way we used to before sonar

11:40

squeeze the search

11:40

bobby and some sort of a like jim talks

11:43

about child abuse and panic concentric circles

11:45

is it like a grid search or i mean how

11:47

do you

11:48

they didn't stop you imagine imagine

11:50

the around imagine the

11:52

shoreline has shoreline a

11:54

a a a a over diameter

11:57

i got life or circle and what you're doing

11:59

is you make now on the shoreline so what

12:01

you do is if you don't get it the first circle you

12:03

go out you know fifty feet every time

12:05

you got fifteen feet to the thing is getting bigger

12:07

and bigger and then if you don't find it and you

12:10

moved up the center point of the sir f circle

12:12

over a little bit and over overlapping

12:15

when you're always doing that now thats the answer

12:17

was getting bigger and bigger snow a vehicle

12:19

thing about can only go so far away from

12:21

the shore so that's usually a pretty

12:24

effect active way to do it because will

12:26

happen is even if it's clockwork as most the time

12:28

the divergence see this of this is pitch black

12:30

works most lakes or pitch clock so

12:32

what will happen is you'll go you'll start

12:35

to feel the line stay over

12:37

year of launched with me as with me as with me

12:39

and then all of us and i'm still moving and i can feel the

12:41

lines are coming with me so i swim in

12:43

on the line to see what a snag on could

12:45

be a tree for be a big rock the a

12:47

vehicle comedy do that over and over

12:49

to would be and out of place

12:53

great white shark a matter of

12:55

a good

12:55

the uk the gym because what i was thinking

12:57

was it could be like something like nephew the

12:59

last month

13:00

so you go lobbying i think there's only

13:02

one species of shark second actually

13:04

survive or for one is too many

13:07

are alike but er

13:08

where the box but i just have to say

13:11

thank , to you and to all of the dive

13:13

reference around the world who do

13:15

this kind of work at it ,

13:18

gives me chills and scares me when you just

13:20

said diving and blackwater i i

13:22

cannot imagine anything more frightening

13:24

the last time i swim in a lake a jumping off

13:27

a boat i could not help myself

13:29

i jumped off the boat i rely on our far

13:31

i'd have the way i look back and i thought

13:34

wonder what the under me and and i was

13:36

completely to how i

13:38

forgot about i literally my

13:40

heart started the found and

13:42

i are off the water but i do for the i

13:44

just financially better in some parts of the ocean

13:46

because the waters clear because in most

13:49

lakes if you're a know what are you can see

13:51

your feet but visit our he still

13:54

brings to mind fact that when

13:57

just came out or that

14:00

supposed to be this

14:02

fantastic movie like

14:05

nobody had ever actually seen

14:08

the great white shark

14:09

the pale

14:11

nobody took a picture of one just

14:13

was like this myth the now

14:15

that everybody has a cellphone with all these

14:18

for g cameras on him and stuff

14:20

there's so many pictures and there's boats were

14:22

people in as little tiny both and

14:25

all sunday see this disturbance

14:27

in the water and then they're leaning over wondering

14:29

what it is and then you see this thing

14:32

that is twice as long as their boat

14:34

and three times as why the

14:37

guy be more t then they have in the most

14:40

added like right barrier

14:42

to if it decides you know

14:44

i really like the color of your phone it

14:47

could do that farida file knocked it over

14:49

and you can say okay we're going to need

14:51

a bigger boat at that point is you're already

14:53

dead so you're dead why who

14:55

are side were shot have been wrongly vilified

14:58

the i was a thief bobby

15:00

is made of sterner stuff gm i've gotten

15:02

i know okay so bobby

15:04

i i i i think that's really we

15:06

say about these circles what i'm curious

15:08

about in this particular case a

15:11

is about death so apparently

15:13

the private divers that eventually did find

15:15

her vehicle founded and fourteen

15:17

feet of water now it's not clear to me whether

15:20

the bottom or a vehicle was sitting on the bottom

15:22

and that was fourteen feet or like the roof

15:24

of the vehicle was fourteen v dot i've

15:27

never been quite clear on that but is

15:29

that it is fourteen feet deep bobby

15:31

what what is that in comparison to other

15:33

kind of died

15:35

every dive is different i mean we've we've found

15:37

people in in in six feet four

15:39

feet of water and we you know found people

15:41

and three hundred feet of water four hundred feet of water and

15:44

it all depends on the body of water or where it is

15:46

and i'm a that's not unusual

15:49

for a lake a and in the inland

15:51

lake i'm certainly a vehicle and and the

15:53

lake because rumored that it's very rare

15:55

that the vehicle will make its way to

15:57

the deepest on the lake like the vehicle

15:59

stop were comes to rest down

16:02

were little happens because almost everybody has

16:04

a bird more she saw thought i'm and

16:07

the vehicle will make it's way to were digs into

16:09

the bottom it's it's it's wheels

16:11

it's tires or whatever else it will get

16:13

stop it will move away a little bit and

16:15

but it'll benchley get stop it will miami

16:18

to wait a minute some velocity anyway we

16:20

are the ones that we are determined march

16:22

and but if i

16:24

there is a lot of velocity

16:26

so they went in at speed or that it was struck

16:28

in went in at cedar driven ends

16:30

at speed at some point obviously it's sauce

16:32

the carry ons not it's awesome was immediately

16:34

that one of our training was we

16:36

would get we would get some vehicles

16:39

with no engines and them and we would

16:41

have all the doors removed and we would put for divers

16:43

in in one passenger brought

16:45

back and and we would actually go down a boat

16:47

ramp and let it sink and you would actually

16:50

wait until i got to the bottom and then you'd come off

16:52

just to see that would tell us

16:54

how people behave when ,

16:56

on the one right and so are we

16:58

we we wish we could add the injured because it's

17:00

be a little before that week but because of

17:02

environmental reasons we always had to have that

17:04

those training vehicles not only had

17:07

a range of them both and we have have it's steam cleaned we

17:09

on a certification that we could use it in a

17:11

lake and stop by a we trained

17:13

with that we would you would literally gotta be

17:15

of a big big boat ramp as to say

17:17

blake of know them away and you

17:19

get in and a momentum towers you and you're going

17:21

like thirty thirty five an hour without

17:24

water it's pretty sure from hitting a wall

17:26

most you have and know seat belts on

17:28

no because you're going to get out of the thing

17:31

is is no there aren't even be seats are now it's

17:33

like you're just sitting on metal it's it's it's just

17:35

or it's just so that your as a garbage

17:37

do you connor your i understand the

17:39

reason for it right there

17:42

neither am i getting a lobby or a violent

17:44

man thirty five mile an hour accident

17:47

with a wall of unforgiving water

17:49

that is not been a blow when i was

17:51

in the metics for the guy the other helicopter

17:54

to be certified as a good cheap which i

17:56

was your to go to the or for school they have

17:58

something called the dilbert bunker is

18:00

it it's a it's on a rail it's like on a on

18:02

a cool a rollercoaster real but it's like

18:05

other up as inside of a helicopter to shop

18:07

in any minute you down into a pool

18:09

and then immediately in virtue because that's where helicopter

18:12

would do because the rotors ib and it would swing

18:14

upside down the water and then you have to

18:16

figure out of for yourself and you have a heat what

18:18

we call it he bottle you don't screw with your and

18:20

have a little bottle of the sized vodka or

18:22

with green can with a little super mouthpiece

18:24

on the top and the new you have about eight or

18:26

ten minutes of air and match and

18:28

then you have to get yourself out of that cars

18:31

are i'd i'd have i have an

18:33

idea facts over on a plane i

18:35

love in our who that sorry they'll know

18:38

there are people like to say that

18:40

i feel like a hobby

18:57

tommy

19:00

the private died keen it was so interesting

19:02

i think there were just a couple of guys they

19:04

looked on sonar after the police had

19:06

said to ten days as an investigation the

19:08

police announced that the they

19:10

active part of the search is over that

19:13

now it's going into just the investigative

19:15

phase so it's gonna become you know a missing

19:17

person faith of and to keep investigating

19:19

that there's no more search and rescue kind

19:21

of stuff happening at this point these

19:24

these to private divers decides a look in

19:26

the same reservoir and they use sonar

19:28

and i guess they find at my

19:30

guess i said last week was that they probably

19:32

have better sonar equipment and the police do

19:35

because like you said it's is this

19:37

a perishable skill and they had private

19:39

money not you know taxpayer money so

19:41

maybe their sonar equipment was better and

19:44

they find the the vehicle

19:46

and it gets you know pulled

19:48

up so i wanted to talk about without getting

19:51

you know too graphic but you

19:53

worked a lot of these are a cases where a vehicle

19:55

was pulled from water victim pulled from

19:57

water tell us kind

20:00

of evidence what can they still

20:02

fine and what evidence is

20:04

now last forever because of

20:06

the water

20:09

it depends on the water right so

20:11

when we talk about water and it's effect

20:13

on evidence we talk about water temperature

20:16

what a salinity a water movement

20:18

i'm so salt water versus freshwater

20:21

hot water versus cold water or moving

20:23

water versus so what are all of these these impact

20:25

whether or not you know when i was

20:27

in the program we have the up the i laboratory

20:30

dig trenches at quantico and

20:32

put salt water fish what are moving

20:34

water still waterfall wash and we put

20:36

guns with with fingerprints seem

20:39

these trenches and we we would

20:41

pull them out of of the lab examiners for

20:43

doing the case to in the experiments would

20:45

pull them out and it was we could get a fingerprint

20:48

organ that was in the war for months months

20:50

of if you could or you could you could

20:53

you could still multiple a fingerprint offer gun

20:55

it's been an hour for months depending on an hour

20:57

a great white shark came by up to

20:59

eight attacker it's just one of the

21:01

, pretty which we were promoted sounds of our our

21:04

anyway and so it but it would

21:06

depend on if is sold in the water

21:08

the waters moving yourself as an astringent

21:10

and it would kind of wrote that oil because

21:12

the fingerprint is really just your oil and it

21:14

would rub it also depends on the

21:17

a lot of of those factors that i mentioned

21:19

about whether or not so i'm

21:21

normally we are process

21:23

was to remove the body under water before

21:26

removing the vehicle because with at once because

21:28

when you pull a vehicle of the water want

21:30

to rush is our is a lot of stop it

21:33

gets wash now my we would try to

21:35

there was much of the crime scene

21:37

in a vehicle underwater as we possibly

21:39

course we we came across this in the

21:41

honor of remember the i thirty five bridge collapse in

21:43

minneapolis a beginner say collapse whoa

21:46

their arm and so they will lot of

21:48

course in the water bodies and it's on course

21:50

concrete and things and so you don't you try

21:52

to remove the bodies as much as you guess that

21:54

wasn't a crime scene per se but week

21:57

we some solve the superbowl so in

21:59

a crime scene we tried to as much processing

22:01

under water as you can because you

22:04

know you've all seen it when of why you to the waters

22:06

just like rushing out of that vehicle

22:08

everything else is getting washed out to try

22:11

to do as much of that underwater to care

22:13

and more on have you are

22:14

being i do recall seeing gabi

22:17

that they did take her body out certainly

22:19

will she was later identified we we said that

22:21

last week but they did take

22:23

her body out separately because our and runs

22:25

the and them

22:26

showing her them fly or up the want

22:29

to take somebody out of the car before you will

22:31

get hard as you that standard practice can

22:33

you dress those environmental factors

22:36

now because

22:38

you know like things that affect

22:40

why is it may be why

22:42

speculate why the police didn't find

22:44

her that they searched said same reason why

22:46

it in i would wonder i don't know if they had shown

22:48

or not but like there were there when times are

22:51

all one particular time when we were going to help

22:53

and and the sure sitting kind of one of the com

22:55

but then we came anyway and and i call this

22:57

a will use narnia we have sown always knowledge

22:59

and i got there in this so know that the small

23:02

sure to format was something your hook actor

23:04

attached to a fishing line and you cast it

23:06

into the water and is was little things that

23:08

you the real back then and it was

23:11

really nothing more than like a fish finder a piece of

23:13

fish finder and that's what they were calling

23:15

sonar so they will tell us we

23:17

could leave our summer also know was couple

23:19

hundred thousand dollars you turbine abode and

23:21

you know the details so is the depends on what

23:23

sooner you have what's already used how

23:26

good your people are that use that it could have been

23:28

that they had no saw hurdle for sometimes they don't

23:30

on or it could be they had a

23:33

mess good alert high

23:35

quality sonar send in the

23:37

private her folks and those guys are

23:39

really good and i know those guys i i go on

23:41

a youtube channel and i you know and they

23:44

have recovered many many others but

23:46

i myself have one the

23:48

chelsea king taste and in san diego we

23:50

went down about six seven days after the search

23:53

she is there was a reservoir freeing search the was

23:55

a command center set up they said

23:57

okay we searched all these areas we just need your t

23:59

to go down the and it's or center of my guys

24:01

haven't heard the cat facts of the keystrokes

24:04

we should be searching now may have a higher probability

24:06

or muto that was a researcher to convert

24:08

or it's efforts to then about eight days

24:10

go by and everybody else is going

24:12

to lead to of the lake and my guys

24:15

go with circle back there just give that one last

24:17

thing we weren't there now we found chelsea

24:19

arm and and she was literally about

24:21

thirty feet from the command post it was just

24:24

on the edge of the water what we were told that are

24:26

to concerts of this does happen occasionally

24:29

i can't talk to why the police

24:31

mrs miss that miss can theorize that either

24:33

they didn't house or know the headstone arcs that was

24:35

inferior was inferior had operators that weren't

24:38

to steal their skill level wasn't okay

24:40

now vehicle on a sonar should stand

24:42

i could probably turn on the solar system

24:45

i have a go north korea in ten years and

24:47

find a be a cornerstone are so i don't know

24:49

my guess is they didn't have a soldier if they

24:51

didn't have zone or though it is a lot

24:53

of environmental factors i mean when was less

24:55

time it rains when it rains a lot of times much

24:58

comes into the lakes and so

25:00

the especially the the water around

25:02

the edge of the legs which is probably where this

25:04

vehicles found that's all muddy

25:06

and murky and maybe they were just literally

25:09

searching with their hands because that happens

25:11

you know our in indiana and are they are doing ban

25:13

they're still they're still and there and also

25:16

just the activity of have a car

25:18

going it

25:19

that could actually create

25:21

like it stirs up the silk from the bottom

25:23

the mud from the bottom that current could actually

25:25

create an area that is super

25:27

cloudy so they can't see anything

25:29

saw him times often times

25:32

have we want a cold in that quick marathons

25:34

we'll call the year two three years later do research

25:36

and i would always one of the first question the one

25:39

of the questions on our survey was always

25:41

what whether incidents what weather

25:43

events have happened between the time

25:45

of the crime was a time of the disappearance and

25:47

the time were going to be doing the surf how

25:49

many droughts of your and how many plugs of you

25:52

ads and the hurricanes have you had all

25:54

of those kind of weather events

25:56

impact the search and so

25:58

we always wanted to know that

25:59

the best we could ah the

26:02

lacy peterson case was a big example about

26:04

that knowing about the wind and

26:06

the current the tides i'm in

26:08

that case water to for me

26:09

lobby for this this was called the truckee reservoir

26:12

name is that right man and he gives the trekkie

26:14

reservoir so i don't know

26:17

what what that looks like i don't know whether

26:19

it is literally away or whether

26:21

it's a big i shut down here we have some

26:23

man made reservoir show that are

26:26

concrete they fins my

26:28

arm which i guess would be something really different

26:30

it wouldn't have well i guess

26:32

we can have some from weather events like you say

26:34

been a minute generally wouldn't be mud

26:36

and

26:37

long time i sometimes reservoirs

26:39

are still natural bottoms inside and they

26:41

have their dammed up at one and right

26:43

and they they they damn up or epidemic reservoir

26:45

and original oftentimes issues for

26:48

different purposes they they're storing water

26:50

to use it so the levels of the reservoir

26:52

constantly getting going off with a

26:54

full season and then they're being drained and then

26:56

the going off in a be right arm and

26:58

so that water movement will

27:01

affect

27:02

hi could even affect the vehicle the bomb now this

27:04

particular case if you're talking about there

27:06

wasn't enough time between her disappearance and

27:09

or been found ah that whether

27:11

would have placed a huge huge role

27:14

in it i'm i think this is more the case

27:16

of i'm hopefully those dive

27:18

team but mr will go back and and room and

27:20

i have one case of my career arizona where

27:22

we did miss something and and another team found

27:24

it like after we have love i reviewed

27:26

every carefully determine what what mistaken

27:28

i had made that that led to us missing

27:30

that it was a fifty gallon drum bodies of the younger

27:33

oh well i've i've i've directed by

27:35

team in the wrong areas and so it's searching in the

27:37

right errors everything in in water

27:40

if you're three feet off your

27:43

calculations are foot off i'm

27:45

it could mess up your whole search you

27:47

have to be right on

27:49

so since his arrest more like most

27:51

reservoirs they damned

27:53

a valley basically well a high

27:55

valley because the elevation

27:58

fifty six hundred fourteen

27:59

so it's basically mile high but

28:02

you know as you know when you make

28:04

read more like that you have these weird shaped

28:06

offshoots right in in all

28:09

different directions were other valleys

28:11

you know existed to this this

28:13

read more is actually a mile

28:16

well one point eight miles long

28:19

and almost a mile wide though

28:22

it's a nodes that's the main part

28:24

of it right the and then there's

28:26

all these offshoots so it could have been

28:28

anywhere in any of the out on a

28:30

lot of era of started to make it even well

28:33

are we to they didn't even know and advance

28:35

on the place and i'm not criticizing them tests like

28:37

bobby said you know it's a small department and they

28:39

may not have you know the adequate equipment

28:42

and training but that's

28:44

a huge search area and they didn't know she went

28:46

in there it's not like they were tire tracks or marks

28:48

that told them that them car had done in

28:50

there that was just one of the places to search

28:53

along with you know any number of places

28:55

on land so bobby that the evidence

28:57

really quickly by know we know we have much more time

28:59

with you you said

29:01

that there's a possibility that if there had

29:04

been foul play or if they're investigating

29:06

whether there might have been badly they might

29:08

the to get fingerprints even though the

29:10

car was in the water about ten days what

29:12

other kinds of evidence might they be

29:14

able to recover from her vehicle or

29:17

what evidence i get i'm trying to be a little bit delicate

29:19

but what evidence or from her

29:21

body might be sort of lost because

29:24

of ten days in the water

29:26

how are your own dna

29:28

of or could wash off com or

29:30

you know is is not totally embedded in the fibers

29:33

of a clothing i'm other

29:35

clothing again that's

29:37

why you try to do what you do is

29:39

you do a search of the vehicle as

29:41

much as you can waltz in the water when you remove

29:44

it now in this case it's case it's unlikely

29:46

they would find a thing for gonna be a because the

29:48

simplest of removing hit the water would rush

29:50

off and probably wash off in the else

29:53

but then you go back in

29:55

and you do a search of the bottom

29:57

where the vehicle was to and into

29:59

something fell under because sometimes

30:02

a vehicle float a little bit and then it

30:04

was safe and so fast the case things

30:06

could have four out of the vehicle

30:08

underneath and the vehicle could convert to rest

30:10

on top of that everything's so there's always a second

30:13

search she should do is when

30:15

the vehicles remove barriers you go back in

30:17

and search that area where the vehicle with came to

30:19

rest i'm an alliance of

30:21

i haven't i didn't hear anything about

30:23

that that doesn't mean they didn't do it but i certainly

30:26

hope that was done that seems like

30:28

that that be pretty stan

30:29

start that he thought was standard for

30:31

us whenever we remove the vehicle for the what honor

30:34

we always did a search after that

30:36

of the area where the vehicle was resting on the bottom

30:39

because like i said their feet could be things

30:41

that are

30:42

relevant feather hundred vehicles running

30:44

pull that are you have to search that area if

30:46

you go back in and searched the area where

30:48

the vehicle was yeah and i would also imagine

30:51

that you would search the area where was

30:53

indicated that the vehicle entered the water

30:55

and exited the road because

30:57

those two errors would also be really of

30:59

and you should he should do that before you recover

31:01

the be at once you know with a vehicle is you

31:03

kind of can put a pathway together from where

31:06

he is to the shoreline and you should search

31:08

that first before because most likely

31:10

it's it's the most direct route to were divorced

31:13

and it's also the without even a reduced extract

31:15

the vehicle so you're gonna you're gonna do that

31:17

search first because when you a trap

31:19

you want to know whether this was your first

31:21

whether it was a result i was pulling

31:23

the will be a lot of the water right in it's a

31:25

very it's not a very delicate operation

31:28

you get a tow truck and it just basically hauling

31:30

it out right and and this is

31:33

inequality death investigation

31:35

at this point and so you're going to have to figure

31:37

out whether this was an accident where she

31:39

was you know driving late at

31:41

night and she ran off the road

31:44

because something happened she avoided

31:46

a deer that jumped out of front of her something

31:48

a great white shark reared it's ugly head

31:50

whatever it is

31:52

and and then

31:53

you know it could also be that she had

31:56

she passed out you know the or had

31:58

some kind of matter the issue that they

32:01

made her unconscious and she drove off the

32:03

road or could also be that somebody

32:05

actually source or off the road

32:08

and also to be that somebody

32:10

basically killed her and the

32:13

car or or ran the car into

32:16

lake zulus now all different possibly

32:18

all of those are all of those reasons why

32:20

we do the investigation while the car so the

32:22

war because when you are such a body

32:24

of water inside the vehicle it's gonna lot

32:27

al it could even push out the

32:29

the windshield if if if if it's is

32:31

the right angle so if if if

32:34

if her have impacted the inside that windshield

32:37

when she was going and you want to know that you want

32:39

to know that that happened first not as

32:41

a result of all the water russia outbreak

32:43

me when shield when you extract the the vehicles

32:45

ohio though the conditions of the windows

32:48

up down here pop have found the conditions

32:50

of the last the condition of the shifter

32:53

was it important to the new and the ignition

32:55

right and ignition was it can drive should

32:57

be in drugs use try to get it's a neutral

32:59

semi summer put a neutral so they could push i

33:02

that's why you put a car in neutral seek a push it so

33:04

that the the and and if if if

33:06

it's a neutral and that pushing they really jump

33:08

into put it in another could just put it this

33:11

is is it stays a neutral because

33:13

now it's of the water and then aka bother going in

33:15

and changing the position that super so all

33:17

of those things of upon of the crimes you

33:19

do while it's still in the water yeah i remember

33:21

when we were doing searches in

33:24

the southeast washington dc

33:27

and ah it was unbelievable

33:29

like you know shopping carts and motors i haven't

33:31

now i mean dozens of guns

33:34

and knives and am a just

33:36

it was unbelievable how much junk

33:38

we found you know we started with the sonar

33:40

and and we had a we

33:43

had a it was it was

33:45

sideways looking sonar right and then

33:47

it was then we had cameras

33:49

that we drop down never we

33:51

saw anything the anomaly

33:53

in the sonar and was just unbelievable

33:55

how filled that that area was down

33:58

and then as some of that the so we were doing

34:00

any good is it just saw the so much on

34:02

persona in off of everything

34:04

and it's not even you know now you gotta put

34:06

cameras and we got up with diverse into this

34:09

is too much junk that the sonar sitting on

34:11

nobody any i i just

34:14

you've made this picture so much clear for me

34:16

and i i think last week i gave the

34:19

a diverse said police every little bit a short

34:21

shrift as we didn't really understand the case

34:23

that you've certainly made us understand

34:26

and how complicated something like this

34:28

can be how much training and

34:30

how good equipment might be necessary

34:32

and that really kind of explains why local

34:35

police departments i mean gym says his

34:37

last week local police departments my

34:39

do this once and twenty years i mean

34:41

it just might not happen very

34:42

even if they had died gene if

34:45

they for local police as a bad team

34:47

think about where the community to

34:50

spend the money they say how the body of water

34:52

in their jurisdiction they're going to spend money on

34:54

rescue the going to want their people

34:56

trade and rescue all the devices all equipment

34:58

is going to be geared towards rescue not search it's a

35:00

different activities that you can try to do

35:03

both oh but but most

35:05

of your focus is going

35:07

to be on rescue priest god forbid that couples

35:09

in the water and your daughter's don't save on thought

35:11

different than you miss about it it's already

35:13

gone or persons dirty deceased i'm

35:16

by but but dot help you edge

35:18

and your town council meetings if you don't say

35:20

that you that you could say price version of

35:22

the right training and equipment or the people are

35:24

so even if they do i was i the most

35:26

of these by teams are geared towards rescue a

35:28

drowning care about that turns

35:31

over second to stop this kind of search

35:33

and the grace all we did when i didn't

35:35

unfortunately ever get the same anybody we never

35:37

did restless always did was disconcerting

35:40

to get good at it when that's all you do

35:42

yeah

35:44

thank you bobby for clarifying all that

35:46

and bring your expertise to this really

35:48

heartbreaking case and whatever happened

35:50

it highly rodney which i hope we'll know soon but

35:53

whatever happened to her i'm

35:55

i'm glad they found herself at least her family

35:58

knows that she thought just missing

35:59

forever like at the beginning the podcast

36:02

we talked about the delphi

36:04

murder case where those families

36:06

are still waiting to hear exactly

36:08

what happened to , daughters

36:11

and so i hope i

36:13

hope they're a family of collie rodney get some

36:15

answers soon about what happened to her and

36:17

what led to her been found that

36:19

reservoir truckee calif but thank you

36:21

for

36:22

talking to us bobby and bringing your expertise

36:24

thank you brian regan are hard stuff we go out

36:26

to

36:27

family and friends

36:30

right well thank you so much bobby

36:32

for being here once again and and

36:35

you always welcome

36:37

you to come back least thanks and

36:39

until next time is the first gets worse

36:42

case fine

36:51

the skis worst case

36:53

production produced

36:55

by frenzy hakes josh murphy

36:58

than to implement at empire studios

37:00

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