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Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

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The veteran American politician Bernie Sanders,

0:50

an independent senator on Capitol Hill

0:53

and a member of the House of Representatives before

0:56

he joined the Senate, has published a new book,

0:58

it is called It's Okay to be Angry About

1:00

Capitalism. He has come to the UK as

1:03

part of the promotion and he joins

1:05

us now from our Salford studio. Good

1:07

morning, Senator Sanders. Good morning. We

1:10

were talking there about Russia and

1:12

I'm struck by the fact that in

1:14

your book you talk about oligarchy not

1:17

being a uniquely Russian phenomenon, that

1:20

it's a global reality that

1:23

our corporate media chooses to examine in

1:25

only the narrowest of terms. Explain what you mean

1:27

by that. The point that I'm making is in the United States

1:29

and in fact all over the world, we're

1:32

seeing a very small number of

1:34

people with incredible wealth and

1:36

incredible power becoming even more wealthy

1:38

and more powerful. Today

1:41

in this world, Michelle, hard to believe but

1:43

very rarely discussed, top

1:45

1% own more wealth than

1:47

the bottom 99%. In

1:49

my country, three people, three

1:52

people own more wealth than the

1:54

bottom half of American society and

1:57

it's not only massive income and

1:59

wealth inequality. which is outrageous.

2:01

These people exercise enormous

2:03

power. We have unprecedented

2:06

concentration of corporate ownership in

2:08

America and around the world.

2:10

You've got three Wall Street

2:12

firms that control assets

2:14

of over $20 trillion

2:17

and combined control

2:19

the major stockholders in

2:23

95% of the major corporations in America. They

2:25

have political power in my country. It means

2:27

that if you're a billionaire, you

2:29

can spend as much money as you want

2:32

on a campaign to support the

2:34

candidate that will help corporate interests and the rich

2:36

or go against those people who are standing for

2:38

the working class. And Senator, are you

2:41

saying that there needs to be, well,

2:43

I think you're saying that perhaps the

2:45

response to this is taxation. It's about

2:48

the size of companies. It's about the

2:50

size of political donations. Yes. We

2:52

need, when we talk about democracy, it's

2:54

not good enough to talk about voting

2:56

every four years or two years or

2:58

whatever it may be. That's fine. That's

3:01

political democracy. But if we're going

3:03

to talk about people having the ability to control

3:05

their own lives, making sure that their kids are

3:07

growing up with dignity and health and in health,

3:10

what we have got to do is tackle

3:12

the incredible power of big money. One way

3:14

you do it certainly is through taxation. Another

3:17

thing that you do is start breaking up

3:19

these major corporations and moving toward, among other

3:21

things, worker ownership of

3:23

corporate the corporate world. You are

3:26

a lone voice on this, not entirely

3:28

alone, but certainly quite a solitary voice

3:30

on Capitol Hill. Well, yes and no.

3:32

On Capitol Hill, you have a situation where many

3:34

elected officials are way out of touch with the

3:36

needs of working people. But I

3:38

will tell you absolutely that there are millions

3:40

and millions of people who understand that

3:43

we have got to look at human

3:45

rights as economic rights, that

3:48

everybody in my country and throughout the

3:50

world are entitled to a decent standard

3:52

of living. And by the way, with

3:54

the explosion of artificial intelligence and robotics,

3:57

big issue, the jobs that people have today.

4:00

are not going to be there 10 or 15 years

4:02

from now. Who's making those decisions? If

4:06

artificial intelligence is going to increase worker

4:08

productivity, who benefits from that? Is it

4:10

going to be the owners of the

4:12

technology, the corporations that use it, or

4:14

will it be working people? With artificial

4:16

intelligence and robotics, we really have the

4:19

opportunity right now to improve the standard

4:21

of living, not only of people in

4:23

the industrialized world, but poor people all

4:25

over the developing world. It

4:28

is the case that lately, or in the

4:30

last few years, it is Donald Trump, billionaire,

4:32

who seems to have created that niche where

4:34

he has tapped into the working-class

4:37

American concerns in this area. Well,

4:39

one of the things that is certainly not only

4:41

in the United States with Trump, and you're right,

4:44

but it's all over Europe. I think what has

4:46

happened is for millions of people all over the

4:48

world, they perceive that their

4:50

governments in a democratic society have ignored

4:52

them. They're saying they're very rich, getting

4:54

richer, and they are hurting. They

4:57

live in communities which are increasingly

4:59

distressed. Their healthcare systems are inadequate.

5:01

They can't afford education for their

5:03

kids. They're breathing crappy air. They're

5:06

worried about climate change. In

5:08

my country, we have a dysfunctional healthcare system,

5:11

et cetera. And they're saying, who is looking

5:14

out for me? I'm hurting. Who's worried

5:16

about my kids, my parents? And people

5:18

like Trump and other demagogues come along and say,

5:21

hey, look, basically democracy isn't working. All

5:23

these guys do is they talk and they talk

5:25

and they talk. Give me the power. I

5:27

will do something. I will shake up the system. But

5:29

what they are doing as demagogues, instead of taking on

5:31

obviously the people who are the cause of the problems,

5:34

the people who have the wealth, the people who have

5:36

the power, what they are

5:38

doing is fomenting dissent among

5:40

people, tackling, you know, taking on

5:42

dealing with dividing

5:45

people over immigration, over racial issues,

5:47

sexual orientation. They're trying to divide

5:49

people up. Some of us are trying

5:51

to bring people together to take on the

5:54

powers that be. You grew up

5:56

yourself in a working class Jewish American family.

5:58

And I noticed that you've tweeted. recently

6:01

about how can the US condemn

6:03

Russia's bombing of civilians in Ukraine

6:05

but fund Netanyahu's war machine. Can

6:07

you see the Biden administration putting

6:09

some kinds of restrictions on the use of

6:12

its arms exports to Israel? Well, among other

6:14

things, that is what we are trying to,

6:16

but it goes even deeper than that. The

6:19

United States gives Israel about $3.5 billion

6:21

in military aid every year. Right now,

6:23

there is a foreign

6:26

aid bill that was

6:28

voted on just a few days ago, which

6:30

included $14 billion for Israel. I

6:32

strongly oppose that. I

6:34

think what's going on in Gaza right

6:36

now is a total humanitarian disaster. It

6:39

is so horrible, it's almost unspeakable.

6:42

And the idea that the United

6:44

States of America would

6:46

be complicit in that

6:48

horror by giving this extreme right-wing

6:50

government that Yahoo and his racist

6:53

friends there, even more money is

6:55

unacceptable to me. So we

6:57

are doing everything that we can to

7:00

prevent the United States from providing

7:02

military aid to Netanyahu. Senator

7:05

Bernie Sanders, thank you. Hello,

7:07

it's Amal Rajan here, and it's Nick Robinson,

7:09

and we want to tell you about the

7:11

Today podcast from BBC Radio 4. Yes,

7:15

this is where we go deeper into the sort of

7:17

journalism that you hear on Today, exploring

7:20

one big story with more space

7:22

for insight and context. We

7:24

hear from a key voice each week, a

7:27

leader in their field, be they a spy

7:29

chief, a historian, a judge, a politician, all

7:31

with something unique to say, and we make

7:33

sure they've got the time and space to

7:35

say it. The WhatsApps show the character

7:37

of the men who were running our

7:40

country at that point. Trump is

7:42

probably going to beat Joe Biden

7:44

because he is a force of

7:46

nature. If the next scan says

7:49

nothing's working, I might buzz off to Zurich. We

7:52

Give you our take as well and lift

7:54

the lid. Just a little bit on how

7:56

the Today program actually works. That is the

7:58

Today podcast. Listen Now. He

8:05

radio broadcast.