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This is the BBC.

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BBC sounds, music, radio,

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podcasts. Hello, and welcome to

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the best of today podcast with me, Amol Rogers.

0:15

Today, In our ten past eight

0:18

slot, we had a live interview with Sarkir

0:20

Starmer. He's in Sulford because

0:22

he's launching a new mission document

0:25

of five missions which he wants to define

0:27

the next Labour's This isn't

0:29

the next labor manifesto. You'll have to wait for

0:31

the general election for that, but this is meant to

0:33

be five mission statements which are gonna really

0:36

make clear the direction of travel, the

0:38

circular climate and the future Labour's will

0:40

go in. And when spoke to, are there two main

0:42

aims, I guess, one was to try and understand the

0:44

thinking behind these missions

0:46

or these pledges. And also to understand

0:49

a little bit about why his thinking

0:52

on so many these issues has evolved or

0:54

changed since he ran to be Labour's leader

0:56

in twenty nineteen. So Kaye,

0:58

good morning. Good morning. Three things

1:00

I'd like to do with you, if possible, in the time we've

1:02

got. First, understand a bit more about

1:04

the thinking behind your speech today. Second,

1:06

scrutinize the evolution of that thinking. And then third,

1:08

maybe get some views on some of the other

1:11

issues in the news. Are you feeling -- Yeah. -- amenable?

1:13

That all sounds good. Thank very much. Right. Right.

1:15

We've outlined already in the news bulletin

1:18

your five priority areas. And you

1:20

say this is about a whole new

1:22

way of governing We've heard that before

1:24

many

1:25

times. Why is this time different? Well,

1:27

what I'm setting out today, as you've

1:29

said, is what we're gonna do in government?

1:31

So that is the mission. The five missions,

1:35

to give us focus, to give us purpose,

1:37

and to give us drive. But alongside

1:40

the what is also the

1:42

how are you going to do this? What does a mission

1:44

driven government look

1:46

like? Why is that different? And in

1:48

terms of the thinking behind it,

1:50

I think the best way I can express

1:52

it is this that I think for many people,

1:54

there's a general sense that things are just

1:57

not working people aren't better

1:59

off and that we go round

2:01

around in circles and

2:03

two quick examples of that. We

2:06

have had now 4 the last

2:08

thirteen years a NHS

2:11

winter crisis. And

2:13

every year, it gets worse. Every

2:15

year, we just about get through with

2:17

the sticking plaster that gets us into

2:19

the summer. We just about survive. And

2:22

we breathe for a bit in the summer and then we go back into

2:24

another winter crisis. And we never

2:26

fix the fundamentals. And we will go round and

2:28

round like this forever if we

2:30

don't fix the fundamentals. Another example

2:32

just to go somewhere else is, obviously,

2:36

with energy prices, we've suggested

2:38

there should be an energy price freeze, paid for

2:40

by a windfall tax. But

2:42

we can't go round and round doing that

2:44

over and over again. We need a longer term

2:46

solution. So the missions are about saying,

2:49

yes, we recognize that

2:51

a government has to answer the question. What are you

2:53

gonna do now this winter for the NHS?

2:56

This spring for energy prices. But

2:58

what's the long term fixing the fundamentals?

3:00

That gives that gives a country

3:02

that sense of

3:03

purpose. I feel we've been in sort of trounhed position

3:05

as country for many years. And on the And

3:08

on the windfall tax, that is a specific policy.

3:10

But think about this, document is that it is

3:13

extraordinarily reticent about detail.

3:15

I mean, talk is cheap. It's very easy to say as you

3:17

do. You want highest sustained growth in

3:19

the G7I mean, who doesn't? But you don't

3:21

actually say how you're gonna do it. You said a moment ago that

3:23

you get into how you're do it. You don't at all in the

3:25

document. There's nothing whatsoever about how you're gonna achieve

3:27

that. Well, just just on that.

3:29

Firstly, the mission needs to be

3:31

ambitious. It needs to --

3:32

Obviously. -- everyone who wants be prime minister's gonna

3:35

say, we're gonna be ambitious for the country. And that's literally verbiage.

3:37

Just just

3:38

No. No. It absolutely isn't. If

3:40

you take missions, let's take that first

3:42

one, the highest sustained growth in the

3:44

G7. That is going to be

3:46

tough. There's no nobody's gonna say that's

3:48

vague. That's Yeah.

3:49

You know, something that's easily achievable. Just

3:51

let me finish on the missions and I come straight to your point.

3:53

And NHS actually fit for the future. So not

3:55

just to get through this winter, but for

3:58

the next seventy five years. Safe

4:00

streets, removing barriers

4:02

to opportunity for

4:04

every child everywhere. And then a clean

4:06

energy superpower, which means,

4:08

you know, clean electricity by

4:10

two thousand and thirty. Again, that's a sharp intake of

4:12

breath. That's when I talk to CEOs and others

4:14

about this, they say, that's gonna be going some

4:17

gear. So the missions are not vague.

4:19

They are very clear. They're ambitious. To

4:21

take on your challenge, what sits

4:23

underneath these missions are

4:26

the specifics. What then are you going

4:28

to do to get this to happen? And

4:30

so we have the specific, don't know,

4:32

the columns if you like, that hold the

4:35

missions up. And then what I'm gonna set

4:37

out this morning in my speech is then what are

4:39

the first steps along the journey so you can see

4:41

the tangent steps. So there's a there

4:43

is these reflect a lot

4:45

of you know, hard thinking as I've talked

4:47

to various people across the country about what the real

4:49

problems

4:50

are. Understood.

4:50

As soon as of the, you know, how we fix

4:52

it. But then a program of

4:54

that including those first specific steps.

4:57

But but just to take your time to head on,

4:59

I mean, all I ever

5:01

have had in the last three years as labor leaders,

5:03

what are you gonna do about here and now? I'm not interested

5:06

in the long term. If we don't trade more doctors

5:08

for the NHS, we will be in the same cycle

5:10

for a

5:11

very, very long time. At this time somebody

5:13

rolled this leaves up and said, we're gonna fix the

5:14

fun. Understood. I was was trying to avoid a situation

5:17

where you had to list pricey because I I did say

5:19

at the beginning we've

5:20

already got them in the news bulletin, that's okay. You've you've

5:22

successfully used that a bit all the time, so I'm gonna bit get

5:24

slightly more interrupty, henceforth. As

5:26

a as a decorated lawyer, I do wonder if you should

5:28

be a bit worried about crimes against the English language

5:30

because we spent the witching hours reading this

5:33

work and Hemingway, it ate at

5:35

the bottom of page four under the heading organizing

5:37

government around a shared vision. You

5:39

say you're right. This could mean new

5:41

structures and ways of working to facilitate

5:44

collaboration, including replacing some

5:46

of the cabinet committees with new

5:48

delivery focused cross cutting

5:50

mission

5:51

boards. Who's gonna vote for

5:53

that? Well, I'll

5:55

tell you what people will vote for. They'll vote for

5:57

someone. Tell me who's gonna vote for that. Someone who

5:59

And what does it mean? Somebody wants the problem fixed.

6:01

Let me let me give it good. And I know you

6:03

don't like the language, but look, I ran the criminal

6:05

I ran the prosecution service for five years.

6:08

I know that amongst the problems

6:10

I had was that it was in a silo.

6:12

If you want to reduce crime,

6:14

you have to get to grips with your education You

6:17

have to recognize the mental health element up

6:19

to it. You have to recognize the

6:21

health element to it. You have to recognize that

6:23

the single biggest indicator of

6:25

whether someone's gonna end up in prison is

6:28

whether they had difficulties at primary

6:30

school and whether they were

6:32

excluded at secondary school. Now

6:34

to get to the bottom of that problem, you've got to have

6:36

cross cutting. You may not like the word cross cutting,

6:38

but I'll tell you what, everybody

6:41

I've spoken to in the streets where they are. They say,

6:43

here, if you've got a way of actually

6:45

reducing crime where I live,

6:47

then I'm up for a discussion about that. But

6:50

me pretending that oh, well, because

6:52

of the

6:52

language, we better not do it. It's a bit

6:54

difficult to explain. It's a bit complicated.

6:56

No.

6:56

No. No. We just just just just want to understand. I

6:58

just want to understand what you mean. Sat in the back of

7:00

my stroke. Caught watching the same

7:03

process go around year after year after

7:05

year. I want to break that. Okay. Then

7:08

if if somebody wants to, you know,

7:10

change the language a bit, but the determination

7:12

that the drive and passion I

7:14

have to actually change and fix the fundamentals

7:17

this

7:17

usually. I'm not gonna be knocked off course. By

7:19

people say, well, I don't like a particular word. It's

7:21

the idea that matters. It's not the word I read

7:23

the whole document. But let's move on to your leadership

7:26

more broadly, if I may. You said you wanna restore

7:28

trust in politics. Why should

7:30

people trust you when you've abandoned so many

7:32

of the pledges that you made in your leadership

7:34

campaign? These missions.

7:37

No. No. No. No. The pledges you made when you ran to be labeled

7:39

leader in twenty nineteen. Why should anyone

7:41

trust these missions? These missions come out

7:43

of the discussion that we've had over the last

7:45

two or three years across the country. So you just answered

7:48

the question by asking a new question. Forgive me.

7:50

I'm so sorry. The the question I asked was

7:52

about why people should trust you given?

7:55

You've abandoned so many of the pledges that you made

7:57

when you ran to be Labour's leader in twenty

7:59

nineteen. It's not about these missions. We talked a bit about

8:01

that. You abandon many of the pledges you

8:03

made when you ran for leader. So why should people

8:05

trust you?

8:06

Well, look. So far as the pledges, when

8:08

I ran for leader, they are important

8:10

statements of value and principle.

8:13

And they haven't all been abandoned by any stretch

8:15

of imagination. But

8:18

what I've had to do is obviously adapt some

8:20

of them to the circumstances we find ourselves

8:22

in. Since I ran for leader, we've had

8:24

COVID, since I ran for leader, we've had

8:26

the conflict in Ukraine. Since I ran for

8:28

leader, we've had a government that's done huge

8:30

damage to our economy. Everybody

8:33

recognizes that. What these missions

8:35

are and are the

8:37

bringing together of the fundamental problems

8:40

we face as a country, some

8:42

hard thinking about how we

8:45

you know, have the long time solutions

8:48

to those problems. And, you know, not

8:50

many people disagree with these

8:52

missions. What they want to know is how

8:54

are you going to achieve it? How are you going to bring about

8:57

real change in mind? Because people are desperate

8:59

for change going around the country. People desperately

9:01

want change. They know things could

9:03

be better. They know we've got huge talent

9:05

and ambition in this country that is not being

9:08

realized. There's that desperate yearning

9:10

for change And what we're putting forward

9:12

the missions is a program to put that

9:14

change into effect with a purpose driven

9:17

mission driven labor government. Can we just

9:19

clarify a few points? You said that those pledges

9:21

were statements of value. It's not really what

9:23

a pledge is. A pledge is a solemn promise

9:25

that's meant to be resilient two changes.

9:28

Right? So you made a bunch of pledges. And I just

9:30

wanna go, these really are yes or no questions because it'd

9:32

be useful to know whether or not those pledges have indeed

9:34

survived. You were asked

9:36

by the BBC in March twenty twenty if

9:38

you could guarantee that under your leadership,

9:40

Labour's commits or commitments to nationalized

9:43

water, rail, Energy in the mail

9:45

will be in the next

9:47

manifested. And you say head on? Yes. Let me tell

9:49

you head on. Last year,

9:51

when energy prices were going through the roof,

9:55

We had to think what the response was

9:57

because people were really worried

9:59

about their bills for the autumn. And

10:02

I asked my team to

10:04

mock up different proposed answers

10:06

to that specific question in the reality

10:09

of twenty twenty two. I said, include

10:11

in your analysis taking

10:13

energy into public ownership. How

10:15

much would it cost? What would we

10:18

get for it? And would it lower bills

10:20

for this autumn? And so they did that for me.

10:23

And that showed that we would have to spend

10:25

a lot of public money on public

10:27

ownership that because the energy

10:29

companies were still buying on the international it

10:32

wouldn't lower the price, and we

10:34

wouldn't be able to lower the bills for people into

10:36

the autumn. And having done that analysis,

10:39

I took the political choice that it will be

10:41

better to have an energy price

10:43

freeze paid full by a windfall tax on

10:45

the oil and gas companies that made profits they didn't

10:48

expect to make. And we led the way in the

10:50

early autumn in the early parts of August.

10:52

The government then followed in part

10:54

during the course of the autumn. But

10:57

having worked it through, I had to answer

10:59

the question, would I spend the

11:01

money available in

11:03

compensation for shareholders last

11:06

summer. And I think if I'd done that and come

11:08

on your program, you'd have

11:09

said, are you mad? Sure. But maybe I should have made

11:11

the pledge in the first place. The fact is you broke a pledge,

11:13

which you stood for with the Labour leadership. Let's talk

11:15

about another pledge. You said the same

11:17

interview. You said, Alan, you're in the same position.

11:19

Were

11:19

in the same economic position. You shouldn't

11:21

have made a decision. Said that you're prepared to

11:23

break. That's the point. You make pledges

11:25

as promises that are meant to be resistant

11:28

to, resilient to changes in the situation.

11:30

What about tuition fees? Isn't that you're threatening

11:32

me that you foresaw COVID? Are

11:34

you telling me that you foresaw conflict in the

11:36

Ukraine? Are you telling me you foresaw the Kamikazi

11:39

mini budget of last

11:40

year? Because you've got credible foresight

11:42

if you're telling me that you wouldn't pretend to have any such

11:44

foresight whatsoever. But I was talking about the nature

11:46

of pledges and these are points of principle

11:48

that nationalization of utilities In the

11:50

same interview, you were asked, what about

11:53

tuition fees? University tuition fees being

11:55

scrapped will be an installment

11:56

manifesto, and you said the answer is yes.

11:58

What's your answer today?

12:00

Well, I do think the tuition fee the

12:02

way we do tuition fees at the moment doesn't work.

12:04

And 4

12:05

for daily scrutiny change. We

12:07

need to look at what the options are available,

12:09

and we have to look at what's affordable

12:12

in the economy that we got. But the moment,

12:14

huge damage was done to our economy, in

12:16

the autumn of last year with that kamikazi budget.

12:19

And I think that many

12:21

members of the public looking at an incoming

12:23

Labour's government want to know and be reassured,

12:26

which they can be, that we would

12:28

be a government of sound money

12:30

that would make sure that any commitments we

12:32

made when it came to funding or

12:34

costing were fully, fully accounted

12:37

in terms of what we're going to pay for, how we're

12:39

going to get it. It's perfectly

12:41

reasonable. To change your mind. The point is there's a

12:43

pattern here of bunch of pledges made, which no longer

12:45

stand. Let's talk about something else that you change your

12:47

mind on, which is Jeremy Corbyn. Independent inquiry

12:49

that you commissioned by Martin Ford QC

12:52

didn't really teach us anything new about Jeremy Corbyn

12:54

himself who talks quite a lot about the late party in

12:56

antisemitism. But Corbyn himself is in

12:58

many ways to say man elected to parliament

13:00

in nineteen eighty three. For years,

13:02

you worked for him. You supported him.

13:04

You campaigned across the country for

13:06

him to lead this country, yet you've now

13:08

suspended him from parliamentary party.

13:10

He hasn't changed. So why have you?

13:13

Well, I think it's absolutely clear

13:15

The first thing I said as a Party

13:18

leader was that I would tear antisemitism

13:20

out of our party by its roots. That

13:23

I would change our Labour's And

13:25

I've done that. Our labor party now is

13:28

unrecognizable from twenty nineteen.

13:30

Jeremy was suspended from the whip

13:33

because of his response to the court in Human

13:35

Rights Commission. And I'll just remind you,

13:37

if I may, that that's the commission. That

13:40

found just over two years

13:42

ago that the Labour Party had acted

13:44

unlawfully in breach of equality

13:47

legislation. That is a serious position.

13:49

For any party to find themselves in.

13:51

Because of the changes that I've brought about

13:53

in the Labour Party, I'm pleased

13:56

but not congratulating myself

13:58

that last week, the

14:00

commission took us out of special measures

14:02

said that they were satisfied that we had done sustainable

14:05

change in relation to antisemitism

14:08

in our party. That's not a moment

14:10

for celebration. It's a moment for reflection.

14:13

But in order to get there, I've had to take

14:15

tough decisions. And I have taken

14:17

tough decisions because I'm determined that

14:20

we will change and continue to change

14:22

our party. I'm determined that

14:24

we will tackle antisemitism wherever

14:26

it raises its poisonous

14:29

face. And I will continue in

14:31

the same vein. So In relation to

14:33

Jeremy Corbyn, the reason he won't stand

14:35

as a Labour candidate in the next election is because

14:37

of the hard work that I've done in

14:40

our party in relation to antisemitism having

14:42

been found to be in breach of the law

14:44

by the commission and having now

14:47

got ourselves into a position where

14:49

we have made enough progress

14:51

for the commission to say that

14:53

they're

14:54

satisfied. We have a sufficient plan and

14:56

that we're not in special measures. Secure

14:58

if he's not fit to represent Labour's.

15:01

Islington North. What does it say about you

15:03

and your judgment that you spent years advocating

15:05

for him to be prime

15:06

minister? Well, look, every single member

15:08

of the Party campaign for Labour's

15:11

and the next election just as every member of

15:13

the Conservative Party campaign for a Conservative

15:15

Party election victory. That's

15:17

what happens at every election.

15:20

But I'm focused on the future. I look

15:22

at when when they in twenty nineteen,

15:25

the electorate gave their verdict. And

15:28

my strong response to that was to

15:30

say if the electorate have rejected

15:32

you that badly, You don't look

15:34

at them and say, what were you up to? Won't you listening?

15:37

You look at your party and say, we must

15:39

change. And that's why my first

15:41

priority as incoming leader was to

15:43

change our party. The second priority

15:46

was to expose the government that's not fit to

15:48

govern. And think the evidence of that

15:50

is becoming clearer every day. And the third bit,

15:52

which is what today is all about, is

15:55

to then say, well, if not the government,

15:57

why you, an incoming Labour's And

16:00

today, we're continuing to answer

16:02

that question, which is because we will have these

16:04

strong missions, what we're going to achieve

16:07

and we will also set out how we're going to

16:09

achieve and what a mission driven government looks

16:11

like. Cash, just one other question. Sally

16:13

Khan, has told us that he wants a policy

16:15

of preschool meals for all primary school

16:17

children. Do you? Well, look we'll

16:20

look at that. And, Sudhi

16:22

Khan's obviously matis position

16:24

absolutely clear. But I

16:26

have to make sure that everything that we put before

16:29

the electorate or the next election, probably next

16:31

year, is fully costed. So

16:34

of course, the fact that

16:36

we're even having discussion about the

16:39

hunger of children at school tells you something

16:41

about the state of the nation. But look, we'll look

16:43

at that. We'll talk to Sudhic about how his scheme

16:45

is

16:45

running, but nothing will be put forward of next

16:47

election unless it's fully funded. Sarkis Starman.

16:49

Thank you very much indeed for joining us. Thank you.

16:52

That was Sarkis Starman talking to us from Sol

16:54

Foodways launching these these five

16:56

missions that he says would define the next govern.

16:59

Thank you so much for listening to this.

17:01

This is the best of today podcast, and you can find

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