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1:00

sounds music radio podcasts.

1:30

One listener John in Gateshead told us

1:33

youth have been kicking his front door

1:35

repeatedly sometimes two or three times a

1:37

night for the last 12 months. He

1:39

has gone to the police but got

1:41

little more than a crime reference number.

1:44

His is just one example of

1:46

an experience but this is however

1:48

about us as a society and

1:50

our norms as well as about

1:52

the law and its enforcement. Too

1:54

often it seems victims of anti

1:56

social behavior can feel alone and

1:58

powerless. What can be

2:00

done? Welcome to the Today Devate. Well,

2:09

we are here in the Radio Theatre at

2:11

Broadcasting House in London with an audience who

2:13

put their faith in us and booked without

2:15

knowing what they would hear. Thank you for

2:17

that and for being here. And

2:20

welcome also to five panellists who come at

2:22

this with different experiences.

2:24

Emma Dell Chairs, a

2:27

residence association in Colchester, a car

2:29

park near her home, has, she

2:31

says, been a hotspot of antisocial

2:33

behaviour. Emma, explain what you mean

2:36

by that, what kinds of things

2:38

happen there. We had seven

2:40

years of ASB. Residents experience

2:42

the lack of peace and enjoyment of

2:44

their property. They can't sleep. They don't

2:47

bother using their gardens. They keep their

2:49

blinds and curtains shut. They barricade their

2:51

doors. They pay for ring-type doorbells. Their

2:53

exhaustion needs to relationship problems in their

2:56

family and inability to function effectively at

2:58

work. We've got children growing up

3:00

in the street saying, I got woken up by

3:02

the naughty people. But

3:04

what are they doing? Is it a gathering place or is there more than

3:06

that that's going on? It's a

3:08

known hotspot for car racing, organised car

3:11

meets. Cars can enter and exit the

3:13

car park, enter and exit

3:15

the car park regularly. They

3:17

will race in there. They will race at 2am.

3:20

They will then deliberately set the alarm off in

3:22

the car park. We will call

3:24

out the police that's not connected to

3:26

the town centre CCTV. We just have

3:28

to make reports. So over six

3:31

years, we reported over 300 incidents.

3:33

Those are the ones we reported. People

3:35

got fed up. Well, thank you for

3:37

sharing that. And we'll talk more about that. But it brings

3:39

to life the

3:41

why this is a topic for us

3:44

and why this can be so difficult

3:46

for people's lives. So Katie Kempen, also

3:48

on the panelists, the chief executive of

3:50

victims support, a charity which supports victims

3:52

of crime in England and Wales. Can

3:54

people like Emma and her neighbours Fall

3:57

through gaps in the support they can access,

3:59

Katie? Average. In school we

4:01

thought thousands of similar victims each year experiencing

4:04

ancestry behavior and they tell us three main

4:06

things. One is that they don't feel that

4:08

they're taken seriously says one thing we can.

4:11

Oh I'm sure we've all been kept up

4:13

by neighbors once in awhile as a party,

4:15

but where the king where the chaos to

4:17

date him to experience that night On night

4:20

on ninth they're paying their children to bed

4:22

in his defenders that getting up exhaust his

4:24

eyeballs. Go to school and they are. Naples

4:26

gets work and they need that taken seriously

4:29

and they still to. Be joined up.

4:31

We'll say here that they're being passed

4:33

from pillar to post. Say you reports

4:35

the police should pass to the council,

4:37

You pass the housing associations and we

4:39

need us the agencies to work together

4:41

to take responsibility. For resolving.

4:43

These issues and finally that since tell

4:46

us that they need access to support

4:48

they need help to navigate the different

4:50

systems that can bring resolutions through. Says

4:52

we heard from him of this has

4:54

a real emotional impact on people's lives.

4:56

I need support helping build that resilience.

4:58

Nice they get through the process to

5:00

get those resolutions and licenses and Cat

5:03

is seeking of support and agencies. Neil

5:05

Barstool so on the panel is a

5:07

former Assistant Commissioner the Metropolitan Police in

5:09

London. He had a thirty year career

5:11

there and he now sits on the

5:13

New London. Policing Board which oversees

5:15

and scrutinizes the work of the

5:17

Med is the police. The primary

5:20

agencies fool the problems that M

5:22

as describing and katie nosal through

5:24

the work. Or or

5:26

thing. When we get into sort

5:28

of conversations like who is the

5:30

primary agency we immediately hip problem

5:32

So hum this is a woman.

5:35

Agencies responsibility starts off with the

5:37

sauce is responsible as or finish

5:39

my career National Counterterrorism says Been

5:41

some time since I've done with

5:43

similar issues for I was for

5:45

any. Residents. Of the audience

5:47

and was your bonnet burrow Commanders or two thousand

5:49

and nine to two thousand and twelve were the

5:51

largest for my my team in London. We

5:55

would have. My job was to work

5:57

with local counsellors, the local authority locals.

6:00

And try and solve repeat problems in

6:03

my ward. And lots of you will

6:05

have heard about Neighborhood Policing. It's a

6:07

popular phrase everyone agrees. It's a good

6:09

thing I used to be called Safer

6:12

Neighbor Teams developed in sorry in the

6:14

been noughties. Unfortunately, we lost. The.

6:16

Prioritization of neighborhood policing and we have

6:19

to get my back. Not is actually

6:21

the easiest way to communicate between agencies

6:23

is through local people who know their

6:26

communities, know the people who left that

6:28

and can help. Traversed. There's

6:30

agencies and communicate between them and you

6:32

don't currently have that. It's my son

6:34

Harper that's coming back. If you live

6:37

in London, it's definitely coming back. Under

6:39

a policy the new commissioners introducing cough

6:41

clear hundred and Bells and I can

6:43

talk a bit more about. oh. Yeah,

6:46

let me pay in full Gerrard

6:48

next because pull you are You

6:50

lead campaigns in public affairs to

6:52

the Co Op and it has

6:54

revealed that that as an organization,

6:56

as a business, you have a

6:58

thousand incidents a day of shoplifting,

7:00

anti social, and threatening behavior across

7:02

two and a half thousand stores.

7:04

It's an extraordinary number. What is

7:06

the impact on your staff? I'm

7:08

so. My. Colleagues every will

7:11

face threats of use violence. Nothing

7:13

was door. Union estimate that seven

7:15

out of ten seven of every

7:17

turn shot workers will be abused.

7:20

I'm wanting to will have suffered

7:22

want but violence and. It's

7:25

it can. Physically dangerous. For

7:27

social workers, it can be

7:29

emotionally. Terrifying when they are threatened

7:31

have to with weapons blue. The a

7:33

thing to note is that if you've

7:35

got people coming in rinsing the shop

7:37

everyday on these shots in communities that

7:39

my colleagues live in, my toes really

7:41

proud of the shop in the service

7:43

did they give. Which means is if

7:45

you see that being attacked everyday it

7:48

is debilitating you, your resilience dries up

7:50

on. It's no surprise then that thirty

7:52

five per cent of all shoplifters extremely

7:54

short lived in the Uk, thirty five

7:56

percent are thinking of leaving the sector

7:58

because of violence. A decent. They feel

8:00

that exhausted a the it's overlook

8:02

to or underappreciated because you are

8:04

a big organization, people that you've

8:07

got resources you can afford, security

8:09

guards, I'm a thing too often.

8:12

Brutal crime is seen as a. Problems.

8:14

With business on are obsolete groups of he

8:16

suffers job of the first Rosewood business to

8:18

protect shop social workers for the comes a

8:21

point where you need successful If someone comes

8:23

in with a machete on threatens cook colleagues

8:25

there's only so much to shop conduct. An.

8:29

F thank you for that. So priests

8:31

have read thought Am Studio Kz is

8:33

also with as Chief Executive of Uk

8:35

used Hrc which is a network also

8:37

as a thousand youth organizations and partners.

8:39

He said it is yeah I think

8:42

that we need to consider the root

8:44

causes behind what is driving anti social

8:46

behavior. So what are they. Were.

8:48

I mean I think we know that

8:50

where they raise lack of provision whether

8:52

his lack of activity positive activities to

8:54

do. People feel

8:56

that time with other things I think as

8:58

a society at large I think somebody said

9:01

it early. we have to we have to

9:03

answer the question which is what was opportunities

9:05

do we have out there for young people

9:07

specific me am I think we know the

9:10

reality that you know some for question I

9:12

often ask the police were do young

9:14

people go where do they have to go

9:16

if women not at school. And not

9:18

at home and easy to think about

9:20

your own local area. Think about your

9:22

community can you name were young people

9:24

Have to The goes where there is

9:26

a trusted adult positive activities to do

9:28

and I'm I'm in no as come

9:30

at a safe place. The fact that

9:32

we should all be able to answer

9:34

that question for our local areas before

9:36

we even get to issues of holes

9:38

As if we do not if we

9:40

do not know the answer to that,

9:43

I think we can therefore see that

9:45

we have a problem. Since New

9:47

Jersey poll Neil, Katie, and Emma thanks

9:49

You also been part. Of this panel.

9:57

And that I'd like to go back. To because

9:59

you're describing. The problem is you're having

10:01

it that that the car parked near

10:03

your home who do you primarily turn

10:05

to and what is your experience? Olds

10:08

who responds, how they respond and what

10:10

the gaps. all they call Paul is

10:12

not linked up with the town centre

10:14

cctv so we have to log a

10:16

report. We can ring when the a

10:18

we you mean you in any of

10:21

our residents. Yeah, we have. Group bought

10:23

sought to support each other that literally

10:25

will paying and say something's kicking up

10:27

when than the car park. In a

10:29

is it gonna be a long term

10:31

night or is it just gonna be

10:33

a small bow Susa as the race

10:35

single what else? We then ring and

10:38

log it with the as be tamed

10:40

Nothing happens, Nobody comes out but as

10:42

I mentioned earlier and coast city to.

10:44

Recently got a grant from the Home

10:46

office and is playing for hours of

10:48

overtime per weekend for place to sit

10:50

in the car park. Personally think that's

10:52

atrocious and an absence is wants to

10:54

me that they are sitting in This

10:56

I actually holds the key I I

10:58

feel account soon a to take more

11:00

accountability for this say to the barriers

11:02

way they may depend glycol pop. That

11:04

was the beginning of all the problems.

11:06

Winning City as the team is thirteen and

11:09

accounts. that's a team linked to the Counts

11:11

and we have. And we've also been given

11:13

noise monitoring software on our phones. To record

11:15

the Db and stuff that I was at that

11:17

level that we we are able to go unrecorded

11:19

but obviously that means we're going into the call

11:21

Parker to I am. Would.

11:24

Which is. Probably. Not that

11:26

said, residents. Has started taking a lot

11:28

of things into their own hands and

11:30

I have an I have taken my

11:32

husband as I said on date nights

11:34

into the car park on a Friday

11:36

night. It's luckily I'm still married, but.

11:38

Other people have got so

11:41

agitated. Like we talked about Katie.

11:43

That's that. They have gone in

11:45

there and talons to groups of people

11:47

and we're not just talking about yes

11:49

he knows this. This car racing thing

11:52

is is limited. To young people and they

11:54

challenge them and a toad We know where you

11:56

live and they start following them. High Sounds like

11:58

it's dominating your life for that. The right

12:00

it dominates. I try and take

12:02

a. Degree of separation from at the

12:05

there are losses my my residents near

12:07

me who it's it's has made them

12:09

completely paranoid. They have spreadsheets. Of

12:12

what's happening at the new new boss, he would

12:14

sit be happening in the snow. Clearly anesthetist. The

12:17

made in the council's also said full cctv is

12:19

coming to the top up which will presumably make

12:21

a difference it as you listen to M as

12:23

account what do think. While I agree with

12:26

them are about four hours or some

12:28

similar car park eating fast food was

12:30

waiting for something to happen is only

12:32

produces you'll taxpayers' money for policing am

12:34

and any decent to com school would

12:36

want. All of those reports has some

12:38

of this is really important the m

12:40

the ability to have people who are

12:42

coordinating an acting as a communities fantastic

12:45

see go a voice you call way

12:47

of communicating into other agencies that great

12:49

recording every incident that's great as long

12:51

as something happens and it's not just

12:53

recorded for it's and site. And

12:55

I think you've talked about in a

12:57

lot of a being ignored for very

12:59

long periods of time and the wave

13:01

of that affects people's mental health is

13:03

terrible I my quality of life sauce

13:05

we recorded for a reason and any

13:07

chief constable worth their salt will be

13:10

looking at repeat locations for funding whether

13:12

that's a Sb who, whether it's major

13:14

crime well they're looking to do is

13:16

look for repeat offenders, repeat locations of

13:18

repeat victims and try and solve those

13:20

problems because those are the ones that

13:22

are causing the most drain on resources

13:24

the most. Cool as so a lot

13:26

of what's happening is really good right

13:28

up until problem whereas not solved loans

13:30

homes he said the cctv coming, the

13:33

access an entry to com past. these

13:35

are all things that you would expect

13:37

a community safety panel made up of

13:39

police, local authority the as between am

13:42

other services, local councillors even local and

13:44

pays to get involved in a conversation

13:46

that says how do we pay for

13:48

this how do we solve this long

13:51

from had we stop me when I

13:53

would describe as fabricate plaything. Which is

13:55

which is can come out for a day

13:57

posting plus from it and then leave a

13:59

must. And

14:01

the new system that I was describing

14:04

earlier Co. Clare Hold felt that comes

14:06

from West Yorkshire. He successfully trial the

14:08

system of yes the clear thing is

14:10

police coming out and clearing the a

14:12

major problem. The whole thing is making

14:14

sure that there a permanent team That

14:16

said of policing isn't that part time

14:18

that you have a dedicated resource to

14:20

the problem and it stays where long

14:22

enough Am. To avoid

14:24

the criminality, all the disorder

14:27

coming back. And

14:29

then the builds pace is the

14:31

local agency responsibility for that has

14:33

moved to police responsibility at is

14:35

what he described councils trying to

14:37

come together, getting funding getting I'm

14:39

crime prevention measures in place. At

14:42

as Essex police did say that at one

14:44

of the things that they will do let

14:46

him with partners is is enforcing the law

14:48

and using public space protection orders to make

14:51

sure that try this abating safely and responsibly.

14:53

So that's what they said man pulled out

14:55

from Kelp. What happens when someone in your.

14:57

Stores cool for police. So

15:00

I'm in recent years when we

15:02

call for police support it hasn't

15:04

turned up. We did a freedom

15:06

Information across to the start of

15:08

your i'm not talking about reported

15:10

the someone's neck to hum someone's

15:12

on respond important I'm talking about

15:14

serious threats, abuse or first seven

15:16

times I can that we ask

15:18

for help and the first quarter

15:20

twenty twenty three the placed into

15:23

and seven times out from an

15:25

alternate within.we deploy undercover gods who

15:27

are highly trained spurs specialist often

15:29

exploits they detain offenders. The Medicines Arrest

15:31

and detain difference you want your. Normal security

15:33

guards might not t. Know

15:35

because you've gotta You gotta know very

15:37

clearly about I'm from a lot law

15:39

enforcement. Three percent excise. You could have

15:42

special skill to be expelled to intervene

15:44

safely, detain safely. When did turn individuals

15:46

living the police mrs right up until

15:48

October? Eight times out with friends to

15:50

police want to know we've got the

15:52

individual custody. That means that we have

15:55

to let go. The much

15:57

much as that sense to offenders any the

15:59

cold the digital you can walk. What he

16:01

might grab a month citizen's arrest someone held on

16:03

for more. How how long can you do that

16:05

for before he kissed top and and then it.

16:08

And then we let them go with much what does

16:10

go. From. To my

16:12

colleagues receiver have to see

16:15

someone common shouting abuse Mack

16:17

concert steam things is is.

16:20

Detained. By our Gods and I'm walks

16:22

up with or. Now and we actually

16:24

were one of the list is a

16:26

gotta tell us enough. We mentioned it

16:28

on the program was talking. About

16:30

co op stores in.

16:33

Their neighborhood and said the amount of petty

16:35

theft they see going on is unbelievable. It

16:37

isn't so much the crime to decide to

16:39

creates an unpleasant atmosphere of kids left on

16:41

to least in the. Pursuit of taking what

16:44

they want. When they want and

16:46

nudity, I wonder how you feel hearing

16:48

this. Clearly, it's not. Not.

16:50

All of this by any means is

16:52

is is being perpetrated by by young

16:55

people, but they are often mentioned did

16:57

connection with it. They are and there's

16:59

no. Way around that this is absolutely

17:01

horrific. The that's the experience is happening.

17:03

I think for me I'm often thinking

17:06

about upstream prevention as opposed to response.

17:08

I think we we spend a lot

17:10

of energy rightly so on this issue.

17:13

How we gather people around the hardly

17:15

M address. That's that's a me. The

17:17

realities. We can see the glare ridden

17:19

red lights right across our society, that

17:22

we have to look at the causes

17:24

of these things. and then we have

17:26

to recognize that if we are not

17:29

investing in. Ensuring that are

17:31

young people have support have positive activities

17:33

to do have trusted adult I just

17:35

eat it soaks me how surprised we

17:37

then end up being am and something

17:40

else I think we we are very

17:42

quick to eat them ignore his you

17:44

know just a few years ago said

17:46

we experience of pretty major shock him

17:49

in the form of the global pandemic

17:51

and you know the reality is that

17:53

there are still residue impact so young

17:55

people that that as not been addressed

17:58

local community I mean sea level. The

18:00

society they put the family level says to

18:02

me it's not to ignore these issues. Absolutely

18:04

not. But the reality is if we are

18:06

serious about it we have to stop far

18:08

earlier us the when that young person shows

18:11

up in the co op that. It's also

18:13

often that's the case that most people who

18:15

doesn't have access to they support services you

18:17

might be in an ideal situation on not

18:20

going out. Which which actually makes

18:22

the opportunity easier. Rights that they were

18:24

actually not talking about mass numbers of

18:26

people the off in gays in be

18:28

kind of activity I think I actually

18:30

had business yesterday but eat or as

18:33

in if you have the same reaction

18:35

when you hear expert on that around

18:37

ninety nine point seven percent of young

18:39

people do not interact with M M

18:42

criminality to nor interact with a bit

18:44

of any kind of i'm i'm serious

18:46

violence or any kind of M M

18:48

criminal issues. When we think about the

18:50

narrative. Or are young people we don't think

18:53

about? That's so that actually means that we

18:55

are still talking about in the tens of

18:57

thousands right across the country that these of

18:59

the young people that need targeted support we

19:01

are in a country that can afford to

19:03

do that. If we decided we wanted to

19:05

address this, we would. Tt.

19:07

Can confirm as it comes to for.

19:12

Me so soon. Hello New Law Fairness

19:14

New loves him in a last summer

19:16

and in certain circumstances nuts the background

19:19

her having the job affect his closeness

19:21

of England and Wales and he was

19:23

killed after a long series of antisocial

19:26

behavior. Instance a sausage snow would see

19:28

once is a trigger to get support

19:30

that is is is a victim has

19:32

three incidence of anti social behavior since

19:35

the support kicks in at that point

19:37

what would you think of that idea.

19:40

A think at see the hearing and love

19:42

the same themes. Her only ongoing problems:

19:44

frustration that you're not being listened,

19:47

Say that you're not making progress.

19:49

And that's common for the services that we

19:51

hear. From his case. Studies

19:53

was a teams will have a name is

19:56

shouting three that whoop at all times a

19:58

day and night. They have to. The

20:00

way they sleep they found like thing

20:02

sleep in that car they feel that

20:04

they need to me is because they

20:06

haven't got an avenue in which to

20:08

report. Get the right agencies in place

20:10

and get the problems without. You say

20:12

the right agency is because that's not

20:14

a police matter. Is it someone shouting

20:16

through all the criminal justice system. Often.

20:19

It's not the right mechanism to ease.

20:21

So I think that the issue here is

20:23

that there's this join between the models that

20:25

we're talking about that the tools that could

20:28

be in place such the resolve these issues

20:30

and victims inability to be heard. By

20:32

them around. These clerics to get

20:34

them so there is something cool the

20:36

as the case review that should be

20:39

triggered when there are more than three

20:41

three cases events such behavior within a

20:43

six month period by the council. A

20:45

get should be that by the that's

20:47

the Thor say it springs gather all

20:49

the relevant agencies and it should be

20:51

really pro active. Problem solving for

20:53

him and making them alone

20:55

for a three hundred incidents.

20:58

In six years that the cow so new

21:00

knew about you know I mean and you're

21:02

telling me that three incidents in the council

21:04

said of instigated some kind of as he

21:07

heard it and they as the case for

21:09

the not I'm not. Also I met Casey

21:11

today as a set of these tools exists

21:13

right and will and sometimes they're executed very

21:15

well. But what we're finding is that we

21:18

need to support victims to be able to

21:20

that the know that these tools exist Sometimes

21:22

who were can with agencies were talking speeds

21:24

in the council they don't know that these

21:27

tools exist. Since I can education

21:29

as a support this navigation on

21:31

what we need, See these agencies

21:33

coming together and actually listening. To

21:35

the Thames it's new love to discuss

21:37

and twenty nineteen sp help the telling

21:39

us now that these programs haven't been

21:41

resolved we know the answers we've got,

21:43

the tools and place we know it

21:45

was well in places. the what we

21:47

really what we can get sick since

21:49

pool. Is actually help points it

21:51

tends to those answers help suits them

21:53

about boozing evidence, talk to them about

21:55

how they can engage with local authorities

21:58

that nicely in as the rights. They

22:00

do have an and we need to

22:02

bridge that disconnects but his victims of

22:04

sp as often living a nightmare and

22:06

they deserve better New bus and then

22:08

I'll come back to pull to add.

22:11

To your number of points really we talked about

22:13

a very wide spectrum of or you might consider

22:15

anti social behavior but some of that I would

22:18

consider as a career to such as major crime

22:20

read A Horrific the People the not serving up

22:22

to violent crime seven and ten times a violent

22:24

crimes of i'm in Crime Sunday shouting through the

22:27

wall is not a policing incident so we have

22:29

to be a bit careful where we all of

22:31

the spectrum is very easy to pick up the

22:33

phone and does my my mind because he said

22:36

as know that's the has you born and raised

22:38

with it you know some media response to something

22:40

is cause new lot. Of distress and so

22:42

it's interesting to hear that you know and

22:44

good to have nothing to comes was will

22:47

be incredibly grateful that people are so people

22:49

are differentiating between what is a crime I'm

22:51

not needs and non crime response but the

22:54

complication to Ah and Baroness Newlove since V

22:56

with you this morning was a classic example

22:58

of that is when these things spiral out

23:00

of control and when I'm listening to M,

23:03

I'm I'm hearing what residents might be doing

23:05

because we've reached the end of that. Have

23:07

a Not is going to spiral into a

23:10

major crime or a major. Incident and

23:12

I'm sort of with indices. look at,

23:14

we are a rich country. If I

23:16

told you the average cost of investigating

23:18

a murder was one point six million

23:20

pounds as an average cost y answering.

23:23

That was when I was dealing with

23:25

Moses back of the mid Northeast. So

23:27

the reality is is can be much

23:29

more expensive now blindly investing more in

23:31

the prevention much further upstream much further

23:33

to stop these kinds of incidents happening.

23:36

And in terms of as victims charter

23:38

for as bait I think it's a

23:40

really good at. It. because they don't

23:42

have a voice in this or that even

23:44

when we're solving the problems the individuals are

23:46

easily forgotten people don't get a cold asked

23:49

about i was one of the people he

23:51

reported it but i don't know what you've

23:53

done about it and sometimes close losses been

23:55

done but i feel very frustrated that no

23:57

one has updated the hat now i'm afraid

23:59

we have that problem with crime. You

24:02

know, we're not very good with our victims'

24:04

charter about people who are victims of serious

24:06

criminal offences. We're not supporting them well enough.

24:09

And there's a big push to get much

24:11

better. And Clare Waxman, who's the Victims' Commissioner

24:13

for London, would agree with the England and

24:16

Wales Commission that we have to do much

24:18

more about that. So introducing a new thing

24:20

for antisocial behaviour, slightly worried that that might

24:22

be a step. We haven't

24:25

got our major crime victims'

24:27

charter correct. Paul Jared, it sounds

24:29

like within your network of, given the number

24:31

of incidents you're dealing with, you have a

24:33

lot of victims of this, you know, amongst

24:35

your colleagues. And I wonder if those are

24:38

being individually reported as

24:40

such. So all

24:42

the incidents that we report ultimately will be of

24:46

abuse, threats or violence will be reported to the

24:48

individual rather than the business, because that's where the

24:50

criminal resistance is. By the individual. Yeah. Just a

24:53

couple of points if I can. We

24:55

have seen in the last few months a better

24:57

police response. The police recognise the problem in October

24:59

and put in place response. I

25:02

think, I think indeed, he really hit the nail

25:04

on the head here, which is that if

25:06

you ask my colleagues, who are the people who

25:08

are who are targeting them and their

25:11

shops, it could be the same people, small numbers

25:13

of prolific offenders. But if

25:15

our only response is a criminal justice

25:17

response that puts them inside for a

25:19

relatively short sentence, it won't fix the

25:21

problem. What needs to fix the problem

25:23

is attacking those root causes. There's not

25:26

that many of these individuals, but we

25:28

have to work out a way, public,

25:30

private and voluntary sector to stop that

25:32

behaviour. The biggest issue here is reoffending.

25:35

It's the same people doing it time and time again. And

25:37

they might spend a bit of time inside. They

25:39

might not. But when they come out, they'll

25:42

just carry on because they're not, when

25:45

we're not helping to break that cycle. So it's

25:47

just a hamster wheel. And just to say on

25:49

that, again, it's not even that

25:51

we have to go and figure out what

25:53

the solution is. The Youth Endowment Fund just

25:55

did some research that showed that, again,

25:57

you're talking about a very small number of people

26:00

who are targeting the public. when you think about

26:02

the scale of young people, for example, that we

26:04

know the solutions are young people

26:06

who are at risk of behavior like

26:09

this. Mentoring has a huge impact on

26:11

young people's lives. We know that for

26:13

certain young people therapy makes

26:15

a big difference as well and then

26:17

the impact of sports. These are not,

26:19

my goodness, like these are not really

26:22

creative innovative solutions but it's shocking how

26:24

many young people are in need of

26:26

these things. Just to bring those

26:28

figures to life, again we're talking about the extreme

26:31

but I think there are about 50,000

26:33

young people who are arrested each year.

26:35

There are 5 million

26:37

young people aged between 10 to 18. So 50,000

26:39

young people who are arrested

26:44

and that's at that scale and you're telling

26:46

me that we as a society cannot get

26:48

ourselves out to figure out something that would

26:50

make a difference for that and it's not

26:53

just a moral nice good which should be

26:55

good enough to move action. But we at

26:57

UK Youth we did a report with an

27:01

economics engine called Frontier Economics and

27:03

we found that investment in youth

27:05

services saves the UK economy

27:09

over a billion pounds a year in

27:11

terms of the reduction and crime. The

27:14

investment in youth services saves the UK economy

27:16

money. So again these are not things that

27:18

you just need to do it because you

27:20

feel you've got a warm fuzzy heart. There's

27:22

real cold hard economics behind this as well.

27:25

I want to bring in another of

27:27

our listeners experiences. Valerie in Cornwall wrote

27:29

to us about how difficult it is

27:31

to get anyone to do anything about

27:33

how her town is left after a

27:35

Saturday night. She wrote the streets are

27:37

disgusting, vomit, urine, blood, discarded vapes and

27:39

not infrequently drunk in doorways. She

27:42

then describes the the gap that she

27:44

experiences. I've repeatedly requested that the police

27:46

are around at this time and I've

27:48

been told my complaint must be referred

27:50

to the council. I've repeatedly requested that

27:53

the council do something and they say

27:55

contact the police. Emma

27:57

have you been in this position? We

28:01

have a 19 year old son, a 20 year

28:03

old son who both were educated in

28:05

culture. I also work at the 6th one college,

28:07

which is one of the biggest 6th

28:09

one colleges in the UK. We have three and a half thousand students

28:12

between the age of 16 and 19. I

28:14

love working with young people. They

28:17

are an absolute joy. I

28:19

don't experience any antisocial behaviour from them in my work.

28:21

I only get it when I go home to the

28:23

car park. My friend's,

28:26

my son's friend is a bouncer in a

28:28

sports pub. So you're talking about private

28:31

security employed in its very near

28:33

to the car park. And

28:36

I asked his view on this and he

28:38

says that fighting in culture at night and

28:40

drug taking has become totally normalised. Most people

28:42

turn a blind eye to all. You see

28:44

a bouncer drag someone out and you go

28:46

back to your drink. And I've

28:48

been told by the council, oh, it's a

28:50

garrison town. It's always been rough. You've just

28:53

got to accept it. But apparently the squadies

28:55

are the most tame of them all, because

28:57

obviously they've got the military police on their back. But,

29:00

you know, as you say, antisocial behaviour, I

29:02

wouldn't go out at night on a Saturday

29:04

night into Colster. No.

29:08

You don't sound like you've got much faith it's going to... No,

29:10

I prefer to go to the car park with my husband. I

29:15

wonder, Neil, what you make of the

29:18

figures we have on this from the

29:20

Office for National Statistics. These are figures

29:22

on antisocial behaviour for England and Wales.

29:24

It's about a third of people who

29:27

say they've experienced or witnessed some type

29:29

of antisocial behaviour between 2022 and

29:31

2023. And the

29:33

Scotland figures are similar. But

29:35

overall, it looks like there is

29:37

a decrease in the

29:40

number of incidents. That

29:42

obviously it's not going to feel like that to lots of

29:44

people. But I wonder if there is also a

29:46

danger that, you know, once this kind of

29:48

behaviour is normalised and people don't report it,

29:51

and that has its own problems for

29:53

individuals or indeed for tracking and dealing

29:55

with things. Yeah, I mean, what you

29:57

described, there is absolutely a policing problem.

30:00

you know, nighttime economies that are out of

30:02

control is absolutely a policing economy. We have

30:04

the same problem in Barnet, we have the

30:06

same problem in every borough in London. The

30:09

way of dealing with that was to clamp

30:11

down on the licensing industry along with licensing

30:14

magistrates and to say if you can't control

30:16

people drinking or establishment, you lose your license.

30:19

That very quickly gets people thinking. There's

30:21

not a chief constable in the

30:23

country, certainly from my generation, that

30:25

voted for extended licensing hours. We

30:27

knew because of British culture of

30:29

extreme drinking that would not bring in a

30:31

French cafe culture. It would just mean that

30:34

our late turn would be extended from 11am

30:36

to about 3am, you know, so

30:39

effectively that massively increased the cost

30:41

of policing. All of

30:43

the problems we're discussing here are suffering because

30:46

of, you know, effectively

30:48

the massive financial crash

30:50

that cut public services full stop.

30:52

Particularly NDD's problem is not a

30:54

new problem. You know, we

30:57

used to deal very effectively with youth services,

30:59

with drug and alcohol addiction. There

31:01

was an upstream preventative pot

31:03

of money, a resource that was available

31:05

to try and solve these problems amongst

31:07

agencies and not just leave it with

31:09

one person. That's all gone. At

31:12

the same time that that's gone, local authority

31:14

budgets cut by 40%, policing cut by

31:16

30%. The

31:18

difficulty with that is the expectation hasn't

31:21

been cut. So effectively

31:23

the same problem is there, but without

31:25

the old skills and the old resources

31:27

and the old commitment that we used

31:29

to have. And two things

31:31

I massively agree with, short term sentencing.

31:33

So young offenders isn't the real problem,

31:36

it's just the perception. And I'm knocking

31:39

on closer to 60 than I am 50. And

31:42

the difficulty is when we get older we get

31:44

much less secure in ourselves. Our perception of what

31:47

is dangerous to us gets much more acute. And

31:49

I know that because I'm an ex bouncer and

31:51

I'm an ex 30 year cop and I still

31:53

feel less secure on the streets than I used

31:55

to. It just happens to us

31:57

naturally, it's not necessarily the reality. what

32:00

does that matter? But it is the reality for you,

32:02

isn't it? Yes, well it is, but also the perception

32:04

is reality for everyone. Yeah, I

32:06

do want to, I mean, you're saying

32:08

also that you had a big impact.

32:10

I do want to mention that what

32:12

Baroness Newlove said to us about the

32:14

murder of her husband, which happened in

32:17

2007, she said

32:19

that it happened at a time where there were

32:21

plenty of police around where she lived in Warrington

32:23

in Cheshire, but the police did not recognise what

32:25

the family were going through and it did not

32:28

come out to understand the impact on communities.

32:30

And she is talking about antisocial behaviour because

32:32

the family had a long experience of it

32:34

before Gary was murdered. I know, and a bit of

32:37

history is really important here. And there was a very

32:39

famous case in Leicestershire, the Pilkington family, which

32:41

was a murder suicide after a family had been bullied

32:44

and harassed for a long period of time. It was

32:46

a mother and her disabled daughter. And again, that

32:48

wasn't recognised by Leicestershire Conservatory and this

32:50

has been through multiple public enquiries. That's

32:52

not just a suggestion, it's not just a resource, it's

32:55

also about attitude. And

32:57

this is why history is so important because

32:59

in the noughties, there wasn't the idea that

33:02

antisocial behaviour was a policing issue at all.

33:05

So there wasn't a sort of an understanding

33:07

that you would go out and deal with it, you

33:09

would be fobbed off from one agency to another, because

33:12

we were too busy answering 999 calls

33:14

and the immediate major crime.

33:17

That changed because Surrey developed a neighbourhood

33:19

policing model, seemed to be very successful,

33:22

liked it, they understood police officers would be

33:25

in their area. And

33:27

that would, an agreement was reached with Chief Constable

33:29

to say we ought to roll this out across

33:31

the country. Whilst that

33:33

was busy being rolled out across the country after 2008,

33:35

austerity hit. So

33:38

it never actually rolled out to some

33:40

places in the country, their neighbourhood police

33:42

officers never arrived. Those

33:45

are the, that's the kind of community

33:47

focused police officer that

33:49

can help knit a community together. It's

33:52

coming back. Is that the key? I

33:55

Think what we're seeing as a common theme

33:57

now is victims still not feeling that they're.

34:00

They're taking a C and still. Not

34:02

being listened to. The will have

34:04

victims who said they reported they've recorded

34:06

evidence as still being passed from pillar

34:08

to post. A more we tend to

34:11

find as a support service is will

34:13

kind of sweet pence. people's lives are

34:15

being kind of ruined by non criminal

34:17

behavior. You might be your neighbor shining

34:20

star headlights into your i'm front room

34:22

oath all times to try and intimidate

34:24

you. know that doesn't kind of meet

34:26

the criminal threshhold but it's still really

34:29

ruins the nice to people who are

34:31

suffering the anti social behavior. On

34:33

what we sound is that when we

34:35

can come in as a support service

34:38

we can listen to victims hey what

34:40

you're trying to say we can help

34:42

you navigate they systems. As an agency

34:44

we can represent you to that, to

34:46

the police, to the council and that's

34:48

the we recognize the Sb tend to

34:50

be the more complex cases they can

34:53

take years and years to resolve the

34:55

in bringing that seats his voice to

34:57

the for and listening to you and

34:59

understanding what's happening and then bringing agencies

35:01

together to create that sedation. That

35:04

kind of really brings the early intense

35:06

any don't miss and was who is

35:08

living with this kind of thing. Even

35:10

as it's sort of criminal behavior, your

35:12

organization, six and Support will be there

35:14

for them. What would say? Don't suffer

35:16

in silence. We have a support line

35:18

you can get in touch. The challenge

35:21

that we face is at the moment.

35:23

If you reach the kind of criminal

35:25

threshold, if you're a victim of a

35:27

crime, you have a right foot services.

35:29

If you don't reach that criminal thresholds,

35:31

your life still may be absolutely. Ruined

35:33

by the anti social behavior that's happening. We

35:36

don't have a rights thus pool and there's

35:38

a postcode lottery and place at the moment

35:40

put out from told at think it's pretty

35:42

good that you're getting much more the police

35:45

response that and you have such a vantage

35:47

point thing so much as this every day

35:49

annual stores. one of the video of these

35:51

things would make. A. Difference to frustrating

35:54

thing for rules to skirts.

35:57

I'm sure where resource issues before more force.

36:00

Some shows was off issues but often

36:02

this is a. Question. Of

36:04

what it is remarkable Nottinghamshire Police

36:06

of Don't or Sussex Police of

36:08

Don't they have with the resources

36:10

focus on prolific offenders be.settle on

36:12

source behavior or violence in specific

36:14

areas and I've made a massive

36:16

difference. See your point about even

36:18

when the resources he is that

36:20

the issue I'm sure more resources

36:23

will be welcome. Greece attitudinal If

36:25

police forces want to sit down

36:27

and work waste in this case

36:29

of business or president keep up

36:31

to use of residence at of

36:33

success Problems. Because they are

36:35

sick, simple, and solely. Been six

36:37

with a huge essential sentences and you

36:39

it stands doesn't less a would have

36:41

they been swift where. Where it for

36:44

selfish does does a unearthing Nottinghamshire answer. Six

36:46

of them. Some really great work here which

36:48

is what we've done is just the right

36:50

a times and Obama no apologies if someone

36:53

at attacks my colleague with with a nice

36:55

i want them to go inside key my

36:57

colleague size whoever in addition to the Us

36:59

would wait. What is nice more antisocial was

37:02

more recent threats criminal behavior oldest. Talking

37:05

rehab oldest is a range of measures

37:07

that the please contact the keep shop

37:09

safe but tackle the issue. You don't

37:11

have to lock people up, ski lock

37:13

people up, you put them off from

37:15

over the networks when you come out

37:17

the back to square one the range

37:20

of things to behaviours is a really

37:22

important. Rehab old is really important and

37:24

just it becomes just one last thing

37:26

on rehab. Really important is this approach.

37:28

We must be some scholars senators to

37:30

rehab suited for a Bobby that is

37:32

great would simply by the private sector.

37:35

With ripped out the starts to position

37:37

for rehab. Some. Believe of. One

37:40

thing I just wanted to say the. Talking about

37:42

murder investigations in. April twenty eighteen

37:44

and a gentleman com os and dines

37:47

has. Found murdered in the car park

37:49

that's right next to my hands and.

37:51

Had sustained at seventeen. Race and

37:53

three perpetrators were drought I buddhist

37:55

presumed an instant at that level

37:57

was surely have triggered the council

37:59

drink. surveillance, link the

38:01

car park to the TownSoup TV system, it

38:04

didn't. My son refers to his

38:06

stabby-stabby car park. We need social change

38:09

to ASB. It needs to be a

38:11

higher priority and we need a joined

38:13

up approach. Yeah, well that's really in

38:15

our last few minutes where I wanted to

38:18

take the conversation because it

38:20

struck me that it's four years since

38:22

the pandemic set in and I know

38:24

Paul Gerrard and the co-op you had

38:27

and across your stores that was a much

38:29

harder time for you in terms of this

38:31

kind of behaviour in your stores. But overall

38:33

it was a time when people were

38:35

much more mindful of

38:37

their neighbours and conscious of

38:40

their communities and it's already receding into

38:42

memory but I wonder how you all

38:44

think that we can get

38:46

some of that back and did he?

38:49

I mean I think we've heard, I've actually heard

38:51

some real solutions here today and I don't

38:53

want us to lose that. Just really quickly

38:55

something Neil said that I think is also

38:57

part of the challenge, we did some research

39:00

and we asked people what their perception of

39:02

young people were and you can imagine the

39:04

kind of top words that came out, lazy,

39:06

selfish, arrogant. You know, it's really,

39:08

you know these are the top

39:10

five words,

39:13

descriptors and an example

39:15

of how proactive do you think or how much do

39:17

you think young people care about their communities, adults

39:20

rated like in the low 30%. When

39:22

you ask young people they're

39:25

over 70% proactively wanting

39:27

to do something positive. You know we

39:30

run a movement called the I Will

39:32

Movement, you have all of these I

39:34

Will ambassadors and young people who are

39:36

desperate to do something proactive and I

39:39

think we need to stop seeing young

39:41

people as the problem and start seeing

39:43

them as really vital contributors to our

39:45

communities. They want to be there, we

39:47

can't deal with them just when a

39:50

problem occurs, we need to go far,

39:52

far ahead and put back resources into

39:54

youth services. Katie Kempen, how do

39:56

we get the spirit back? I

40:01

mean we would absolutely welcome initiatives

40:03

to reduce ASB. I think the fact is

40:06

there are victims in place now. We need

40:08

to listen to them, we need to empower

40:10

them, we need to support them and they

40:12

can bring resolutions for the ASB. Paul

40:15

Dier, from the cult. I think

40:17

the most important thing for us is

40:19

tackling those political offenders and preventing re-offending.

40:22

It is so destroying for my colleagues

40:24

and all retail workers, it affects all

40:26

retail, to see the same people coming

40:28

in day after day after day, hundreds

40:30

and hundreds of offences. When actually

40:33

an intervention to tackle root causes can

40:35

stop that. Emma Dell.

40:38

I just want to join up approach as

40:40

we've talked about, residents shouldn't

40:42

be risking their own safety. I shouldn't

40:44

have to be going to the press

40:46

to force people to actually stand up

40:49

and listen. I've

40:51

got residents who, they don't want to be named,

40:53

they don't want to be known, they

40:55

don't even open their curtains, they don't even sit

40:57

in their own gardens. Neil

40:59

Bassou, how much would you say this

41:02

is about us as a society rather

41:04

than necessarily about policing? It's a tremendous

41:06

amount about us as a society. We should

41:08

have a community safety system. I'm quoting Michael

41:10

Barber. If any of you have got

41:12

the time and you really want to read it,

41:14

the strategic review of policing is an interesting read.

41:16

Michael Barber is a very bright man, a Labour

41:19

person, effectively hired

41:21

by a Conservative government to try and get

41:23

to the root cause of problems in policing.

41:25

He talks about nobody really knows what policing

41:27

is for. We need to start using policing

41:29

as part of a community safety system and

41:32

the biggest problem policing has got is a

41:34

collapse of trust and confidence. If you have a

41:36

consent model, you can't police 70 million

41:39

people with 140,000 cops if they don't consent to being

41:42

policed. You need their trust and confidence.

41:45

My entire 30 years experience is you don't

41:48

get that from major crime

41:50

experts like me. You get it from

41:52

local neighbourhood policing dealing with local problems

41:54

that affect your safety. Until we

41:56

get that right, we won't have your trust and confidence.

41:59

Thank you all. Let me

42:02

thank Neil Bassen, Katie Kempton,

42:04

Emma Dell, Paul Gerard

42:06

and Aniline Okezi. And

42:09

thank you all for listening. Our next today

42:11

debate is on the 4th of June. We'll

42:13

be in Glasgow. Our team, Clive Painter and

42:16

John Boland, led the technical team, the producers

42:18

David Pittam, Sinead Heekin and Louisa Lewis. Our

42:20

editor is Owenna Griffith. Thank you all. Hello,

42:36

it's Amol Rajan here and it's Nick Robinson

42:38

and we want to tell you about the

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Today podcast from BBC Radio 4. Yes,

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