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All Zone Media.

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Welcome to Better Offline. I'm ed Zetron.

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This is a weekly tech podcast where I break

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down the ways in which the tech industry, and

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in particular big tech, is trying

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to change the future for better or for worse.

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And in the case of Apple, a company worth nearly

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three trillion dollars, it's

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a little bit of both.

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You see.

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It took me fifteen minutes and two

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restarts to try and rename the title of

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the script. I'm currently reading you the

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Vision Pro, Apple's latest device and

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their first real new computer since the

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iPad, released in early February of

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this year, and it's a three five

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hundred special computer which, to quote

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Apple's marketing literature, you navigate

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simply with your eyes, hands and voice.

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This device refused. It's time and time

1:00

again to let me select the part of the document

1:03

in Google Dogs that I wanted to look

1:05

and point and grab. Theoretically,

1:08

I was meant to look at it with my eyes and

1:10

then it would go to the place I wanted it to go,

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and then I'd tap my fingers and then I'd select

1:15

it and then type things in. That's

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not what happens. You can probably guess.

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I assumed at first that this was potentially

1:23

due to a poor fit. So I pulled the vision

1:26

Pro off my head, I adjusted

1:28

the strap, I put it back on, and

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I saw nothing, only the vision

1:33

Pro showing me the world around me. No

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menus, nothing was projected

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on the one thing this device was meant to do

1:40

it was not doing. This

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is a bug that's happened to me at least five different

1:44

times, and this entire experience

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is indicative of what the vision Pro is

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simultaneously the single most interesting

1:52

and annoying piece of technology ever made.

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Practically speaking, the vision Pro

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is a head worn computer that attaches eye

2:00

with a single band rap called the solo

2:02

band, which adjusts with a little wheel. It

2:04

kind of goes around the back of your head and you turn

2:06

it to tighten it, or the dual loop

2:09

band, which adjusts with two extremely

2:11

basic velcro straps. It feels very

2:14

unapple, but it works. The

2:16

headset itself features a big sheet of

2:18

glass and metal with a series of cameras

2:20

and sensors for measuring the space around you, letting

2:23

you see the world through pass through

2:25

technology. This is a fancy way of

2:27

saying that there are cameras that show your surroundings

2:30

and it's pretty good perspective wise.

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It feels realistic. You can grab a drink,

2:35

you can pet a cat, as I have many

2:37

times. Inside there's

2:39

even more cameras and there's two four k O

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lead screens that's organic

2:44

LED kind of see it in fancy

2:47

high end TVs, particularly ones by LG.

2:50

And these OLED screens

2:52

are how you see the vision pros operating

2:55

system, which is projected

2:57

onto the world in front of you, and

2:59

the thing that actually blocks out the light around

3:02

you, that actually puts the vision Pro against

3:04

your face close enough so it works.

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It's called a light seal and it clips on with

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a bit of magnets and it's

3:10

strange. It's really

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weird and it kind of works,

3:15

but not regularly enough for me to recommend.

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One would think you could just buy this thing, and

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you'd be incorrect. You

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can't just order a vision Pro no,

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no, no no. You have to have an iPhone

3:27

or an iPad with face ID, which is the scanner

3:30

that allows you to unlock your phone or your iPad

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and you scan your face before

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you can order it so that they can tell you the right

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size light seal face rest, which is

3:39

the little cushion that goes inside the light seal

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and headstrap. Now

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you're probably hearing this and thinking, man, I hope they don't

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get that wrong, and you're completely right to worry

3:48

about that. My first scan gave

3:50

me a light seal that didn't really seem right,

3:53

so I scanned it again a day later and got a larger

3:55

light seal, which costs three hundred

3:57

dollars. This sucks,

4:01

and it's the least Apple experience I've

4:03

ever seen. It's the hallmark

4:05

of a product rushed out without any

4:08

real planning or thought. I

4:10

had to scrape through Reddit to

4:12

find out what to do with this thing, and apparently

4:15

there is a way of swapping this. I cannot

4:17

find anything from Apple themselves about

4:19

doing so. Nevertheless, you

4:22

scan, you tell it if you have any

4:24

vision issues, You tell it if you need optical

4:27

inserts, and then you provide them with your

4:29

prescription if you do, and then you order

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the bloody thing three and a half thousand

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dollars. And that's just for starters,

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two hundred and fifty six gigabytes of memory

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in there, going all the way up to one terror

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byte, approaching four thousand dollars.

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When you get the device. It isn't

4:45

small, but it definitely isn't as bulky

4:48

or awkward as say Innoculus Quest

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or an HDC vive or

4:53

a steam Index, which are

4:56

all virtual reality headsets. It

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took about half an hour of messing

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with it for me to find something comfortable. This

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thing is not light, though, and you put

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it on and you can definitely feel it on there. The

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solo strap, in my opinion, is useless.

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It's uncomfortable, it does not hold

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it on right, but the dual strap is actually

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pretty good. Nevertheless, it took

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me about half an hour of messing around with it to

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make it comfortable and make it

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actually feel right. But

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when you get there, it

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kind of just works. It's

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different from every other VR virtual

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reality in AR augmented reality

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experience that I've ever had. You

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put it on, you turn it on, and

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it powers on sort of.

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The initial setup of the Vision Pro requires

5:43

you to look at your hands, then look at several

5:45

colored spots hanging in the ether all

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around your vision, and you tap with your

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fingers, which you can see with the cameras on the

5:52

outside of the device. Once

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that's done, you're presented with a slate of

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pretty familiar apps, messages,

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notes, email, and so on and

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so forth, all things that you would have seen

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on your iPhone or your Mac or your iPad.

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When I say you're presented or you see

6:09

these apps, what I actually

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mean is the Vision Pro projects these

6:13

onto the world around you. They are

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it's almost as if they're physically there, but they're

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not really. It's all computer magic. The

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screen is sharp, the text is smooth, the icons

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are rich with color, and they all have a satisfying

6:25

pop when you look at them, because that's how you really

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navigate this device. So you look at an

6:30

icon, you tap your fingers and then that

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opens it up. You navigate through pages,

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say, if you're looking at I don't know, a Google doc

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like the one I'm looking at right now, and you pinch

6:38

and you hold your fingers and then you move them up

6:40

and down. It feels kind of cool. And

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this is all done because the vision Broken see your

6:45

hands by your side, and they can

6:48

see where you're looking at. They actually look at your eyes

6:50

using cameras inside the device. Theoretically

6:52

speaking, you can just use this

6:54

device with your hands and eyes. Essentially,

6:57

the world's your desktop. You open Safari,

7:00

messages, whatever else. You move

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those windows around by pinching them,

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and say you underneath everything

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you're looking at, say a web browser, there's a little

7:09

dot and there's a little line. The little dot lets

7:11

you close it by pinching, and the little

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line lets you grab it and move it around

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space. You can have a theoretically

7:18

infinite desktop space. You can also

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resize things by looking at the corner of a

7:22

window and kind of moving your hands up

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and down. This all sounds

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quite weird when you're in the experience, it's quite

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accurate. When it works. It's

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genuinely magical. It's a functional workspace

7:35

that turns basically anywhere you are into

7:37

a huge desktop, resizing

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windows by grabbing the corners, throwing

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things around. It feels satisfying, it feels

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futuristic. Apple has

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on some level delivered

7:48

a consumer friendly augmented reality

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experience that anyone can use. It's

7:53

really exciting when it works. Sadly,

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that's a load bearing when now

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you may be hearing all this and saying, wow,

8:02

that sounds amazing. Moving things around

8:04

with my hands and my eyes. How

8:06

innovative. But what if I

8:08

need to write an email. The

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first thing to realize about the vision pro is that has

8:13

the single worst keyboard I

8:15

have used on a modern consumer device.

8:18

And remember, Apple once made a keyboard

8:20

so bad it ended up on the receiving

8:23

end of a class action lawsuit, of

8:25

course, talking about the Butterfly keyboard of

8:27

the twenty fifteen to twenty twenty era MacBooks

8:30

that really sucked and cost Apple millions

8:32

to settle. And that keyboard,

8:35

well, I mean compared to the Vision

8:37

Pro, that thing's a bloody masterpiece. The

8:40

Vision Pro's keyboard is so poorly

8:42

devised, so horribly executed,

8:45

and so offensively unfit

8:48

for the task that I cannot understand

8:50

how this device was allowed to launch with it. Typing

8:54

involves either selecting the keys and the keyboard

8:56

by looking at them and then pitching or

8:58

physically poking at the air like

9:01

a confused ape, something that Steve

9:03

Jobs himself once said he did

9:05

not like. And that's why MacBooks don't

9:08

have touch screens. It's

9:10

ill suited for tasks where you need to precisely

9:13

select something from a densely packed group of things.

9:16

It's awkward, it's ugly, it

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does not work, and

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it's astonishing that

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this device launched with this.

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This is enough of a problem that

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they should not have put the vision Pro out into

9:31

the world without

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a Bluetooth keyboard, which the vision Pro

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does support. This thing is effectively

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useless for any kind of written communication,

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relying entirely on this horrifying

9:43

airborne poking thing or

9:46

Siri, a voice based assistant, which,

9:49

as you know from using literally any

9:51

voice assistant, is a C plus

9:53

replacement for the written word. Anyone

9:55

with a strong accent and mind by comparison,

9:58

isn't that strong compared to say from

10:00

Scotland. They're probably going

10:02

to drop a few letters, few words and just find

10:04

themselves deeply frustrated by the

10:06

whole experience. One

10:09

might think, of course, now that I mentioned bluetooth

10:11

keyboards like Apple's Magic Keyboard,

10:14

that this would solve all the problems. You'd plug

10:16

this thing in and are where you go,

10:19

you type away, and you'd be like fifty

10:21

to seventy five percent correct. Look,

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if I was making this product, if I was Tim

10:26

Cook and I was putting this bad boy into the world,

10:28

I probably would have thought, well, my keyboard

10:31

sucks, so I'm going to make the best

10:33

Bluetooth experience anyone's ever

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seen. That's not what Tim Cook

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did. Look for reasons I cannot

10:40

ascertain the vision pro treats

10:42

Bluetooth keyboards unlike any other device,

10:45

acting with abject surprise

10:47

in its existence. You'll

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turn this thing on, connect it, and

10:52

suddenly blue lines will appear on random

10:54

things on the bar, on safari,

10:57

on a textbox in messages, and

11:00

it isn't obvious what you're meant to do there. You might hit enter

11:02

and you'd think, Okay, this is going to put me in the textbox.

11:04

It doesn't. It isn't obvious

11:06

what it wants to do, and at times

11:09

it completely freaks out. You'll

11:11

be typing and then the screen

11:13

will start freaking out and selecting different parts

11:15

or unselecting the place where you are currently

11:17

typing. My theory is

11:20

that the vision pro is still tracking your hands

11:22

as I mentioned it does as you are typing. This

11:25

suggests the hilarious possibility that Apple's

11:27

engineers did not consider the fact that people

11:29

use their hands to type on keyboards. Writing

11:33

in a Google document as I am

11:35

reading off of now, as billions

11:37

of people do every day. One of the Web's

11:39

most common tasks is an exercise

11:41

in frustration. Sometimes

11:44

the vision pro will arbitrarily decide that I need

11:46

to move the entire window, or that I can type,

11:48

but I cannot navigate through the words with the arrow

11:51

keys, as one might do on literally

11:53

any device from the last twenty years. Sometimes

11:56

it will open the software keyboard while I'm typing

11:58

on the hardware keyboard, getting

12:00

in the way, physically blocking my vision with

12:02

a keyboard that I don't want to use

12:04

because I'm using a physical one, and

12:07

then I have to close that or move it because

12:09

sometimes it will pop back up. Similarly,

12:12

when you use I message so you're texting

12:14

features, you have a lot more problems.

12:17

One might think that this would be a simple case of

12:19

looking and then maybe tapping and then

12:21

typing. What actually happens is

12:23

the vision pro has a minor history onic situation,

12:26

unable to tell whether you'd want to use the bluetooth keyboard

12:29

or the on screen keyboard, or even if you want

12:31

to text. I really

12:34

cannot make it clearer. It is very difficult

12:36

to just look at a place

12:39

and then start typing and then send a

12:41

message with a Bluetooth keyboard. This

12:43

is a three and a half thousand dollars

12:45

item. It should be easy.

12:48

This is the easy stuff. Look,

12:52

look, look. While

12:54

this may seem petty. I just want

12:56

to be crystal clear. The Apple Vision

12:59

Pro, Apple's first this new kind of computer in

13:01

some time, is incapable of simply

13:03

letting me type words into a document without

13:05

experiencing some kind of mental

13:08

breakdown. The

13:10

user interface issues on this thing are

13:12

remarkably bad. They suggest

13:15

this company simply did not test

13:17

it in real world cases. It feels

13:19

as if they rushed this out. Apple,

13:22

a company that redefined the computer several

13:25

times over and likely will several times

13:27

more, has managed to launch a three and a

13:29

half thousand dollars device that

13:31

its basic level cannot let

13:33

me type words on a fucking page.

13:36

And it's astonishing that this

13:38

company would launch a product so utterly

13:40

ramshackle in its execution. It

13:43

isn't clear why, for example, I cannot

13:45

simply type in this document, check my text,

13:47

and then immediately return to the same

13:49

document without the Vision Pro either failing

13:52

to let me start typing or dropping my cursor

13:54

into the middle of the page. Look, these

13:56

are bugs, obvious, ridiculous

13:59

bugs. An Apple has shown

14:01

an utter loathing and disrespect for their

14:03

customers by shipping this device

14:06

with such obvious flaws, And

14:08

there are plenty more too. On taking

14:10

the device off and putting it on again. As I

14:12

mentioned on the intro, about half the time,

14:15

it'll simply not load the user interface,

14:17

forcing me to do a hard restart of the entire

14:20

device. I've had multiple

14:22

times where the eye tracking simply didn't work,

14:24

selecting stuff I was clearly not looking at. Apple

14:28

has also rushed ahead without a full

14:30

app ecosystem, relying on

14:32

compatibility with and I quote millions

14:35

of iPhone and iPad apps that really aren't

14:37

that compatible with it at all, including

14:39

chatap signal, which requires you to take a picture

14:42

of a QR code to connect to your account. Note

14:45

that there is no way to take a picture of a

14:48

QR code that's inside a device that you're

14:50

looking at with your eyes. It's

14:53

just sad. It's really

14:55

sad. You can't launch

14:57

something with a facsimile of Slack,

15:00

a workplace piece of software used

15:02

by millions. But don't worry, Microsoft

15:04

team fans, You're supported. The

15:06

basic building blocks of an app ecosystem

15:09

are not in place here. There's no YouTube

15:12

app, though YouTubers mentioned that they might

15:14

build one. Netflix no

15:16

app. It feels as if Apple just

15:18

thought we'll just get this shit out there. Who

15:21

cares and as I've mentioned,

15:24

well, there's technically Bluetooth keyboard

15:26

support, Apple has done such a lazy,

15:28

half fast, than thoughtless job with it that

15:31

it's barely an improvement over there regular

15:33

software keyboard unless

15:36

you can make it work, and that

15:38

is that's in unless. As

15:40

I've mentioned, there's technically Bluetooth keyboard

15:42

support, but Apple has done such an awful,

15:45

lazy, half fast, and thoughtless job with

15:47

it that it's only somewhat of an

15:49

improvement over the software keyboard. This

15:52

is the easy stuff, as I've mentioned, So

16:01

while writing this draft, While putting this

16:03

together, I had quite a few problems

16:05

with Focus. I would pick the thing up, put

16:07

it on, it wouldn't look right. I'd readjust

16:10

and I could kind of get it right, but it just didn't feel consistent.

16:13

Sometimes I'd look and it

16:15

wouldn't look at the right place, For example,

16:18

when you open the device and you have to enter your

16:20

passcode. Sometimes it just wouldn't

16:22

accept where my eye was looking. I'd look at

16:24

the top right corner, it would look in the middle.

16:28

I called Apple Support, couldn't

16:30

get through to anyone. I'd book a core, dogged

16:32

someone for five minutes. They're gone.

16:35

Hung up on me. This

16:37

was within a week of the launch of a device

16:39

that made Apple half a billion dollars. Nevertheless,

16:43

many of the problems I ran into were a result

16:46

of poor fit. I want to be clear

16:48

how inexcusable it is that a major tech

16:50

product, one that made a company hundreds

16:53

of millions of dollars in a single day,

16:55

could be shipped as poorly as Apple

16:57

has shipped the Vision Pro to

17:00

try a different sized light seal. An

17:02

essential part of this device is three

17:04

hundred dollars, and the cushions that go inside

17:07

the light seals cost an additional thirty dollars

17:09

each. I got really lucky.

17:11

I found someone with exactly the same issue

17:14

as I had on Reddit, someone with exactly

17:16

the same sizes. I scanned

17:18

my face on the day and I got fitted for what Apple

17:20

caused twenty one W. The

17:22

person on Reddit also had this problem. They

17:25

tried to twenty three W. It was better,

17:27

but a trip to the Apple Store ended

17:30

up with a twenty three N When

17:32

I tried it, this was exactly what I needed.

17:35

The Vision Pro was now very consistent.

17:37

Every time I put it on it was pretty good. Things

17:40

mostly worked because that's the Vision Pro

17:42

experience. Now, these

17:45

numbers are of course all nonsense and based

17:47

on some kind of internal calculus

17:50

that would have made Steve Jobs take a hostage.

17:53

Had I not spent hours trying to work

17:55

out these issues and spending ninety bucks

17:57

on different eye cushions, I would

17:59

have assumed that the Vision Pro was just kind of awkward

18:01

if you didn't put it on right. It turns

18:04

out it's meant to feel a certain way every

18:06

time, and in many cases I

18:08

think people would simply return it them correct

18:11

the homework of a company with two hundred

18:13

and fifty billion dollars in cash in the bank.

18:16

I of course was doing this review, so I had

18:18

to get it right. It's

18:20

also ridiculous that I had to, and

18:23

it's ridiculous that Apple does not have

18:25

a way of checking whether the fit is

18:27

correct. The way the vision Pro is meant

18:29

to work is it's meant to go on and

18:31

feel good immediately. You're not meant to shift

18:34

the bugger around. That's what I

18:36

found out only through my own

18:38

experimentation. Apple

18:40

has made very little effort

18:42

to make sure you are using their device properly.

18:45

This is not aid to quote Steve Jobs, You're

18:47

holding it wrong. Issue. This

18:50

is a you have deployed your launch wrong,

18:52

mister Cook issue. It's

18:54

a complete disgrace that

18:56

a company as large as Apple could

18:58

ship a product I add that costs

19:01

several times more than most people pay for rent,

19:04

requiring such a precise fit, and

19:06

then trusts these measures to a

19:08

phone's face scanner. The

19:11

difference between a correct fit on

19:13

a vision pro is the difference between

19:15

the clarity of a seven to twenty piece screen,

19:17

so the kind that you would have seen from televisions fifteen

19:20

or twenty years ago, and a four CR screen

19:22

like you'd see on most televisions today. And

19:25

there's very little out there to tell you what right feels

19:27

like. If Apple was a responsible

19:30

company, they'd demand customers come

19:32

in to pick up their vision pros and

19:34

get fitted by an Apple genius when

19:36

they did so. Instead

19:39

of doing the expensive, important

19:41

hard work of building, say satellite

19:43

fitting appointments, or perhaps a

19:46

thorough remote fitting appointment, Apple

19:48

would rather burden an indeterminate amount

19:50

of customers with an inferior experience.

19:53

Imagine if you got your laptop and

19:55

you opened it up and sometimes the resolution

19:58

was wrong, or maybe your eye phone

20:00

came and just the quarter of the screen

20:02

didn't work, and these were all basic

20:04

settings that had never been put in. This

20:07

is the level of fuck up that Apple has

20:09

made with the Vision Pro, and I think it's

20:11

important that consumers are aware of this look.

20:15

I don't have any data on this subject, but

20:17

based on even in a cursory glance of social

20:19

media, there are so many people

20:22

who do not know if they're getting the intended

20:24

experience with Apple's Vision Pro. I

20:27

spent days with this device, feeling uncomfortable

20:29

and trying to make it work in a predictable, reliable

20:32

manner, without success. I

20:35

did try and schedule a call with Apple support,

20:37

but when I did so, I spent five minutes

20:39

giving them the most basic information about my device,

20:42

like my serial number and all sorts and

20:44

things I'd already tried. At

20:46

that point, the specialist drop my call, dump me

20:49

back on hold with a chirpy

20:51

voice telling me that a specialist would be right with

20:53

me in a few minutes. After ten minutes,

20:55

I hung up. To be abundantly

20:58

clear, this was a call I sched

21:00

with Apple several hours beforehand.

21:04

It's also important to add that Apple does allegedly

21:07

have pop ups that are meant to warn you of a poor

21:09

fit of the vision Pro or issues with eye

21:11

tracking. They never appeared once, and

21:13

I simply assumed that Apple had really

21:15

not quite worked out how to make augmented

21:18

reality work yet. And

21:20

what's really frustrating about this whole thing

21:23

is that Apple was really really close

21:25

to doing something quite marvelous.

21:30

I wanted to give you listeners a little more perspective

21:33

on the vision Pro, so I reached out to one of the leading

21:35

tech reviewers in the country. Joanna Stern

21:37

is the Emmy Award winning personal tech columnist

21:39

at The Wall Street Journal and was one of the founding reporters

21:42

at The Verge, another major consumer

21:44

electronics website. She reviewed

21:46

the vision Pro for the Journal, and I thought it'd be

21:48

great to get her views. Joanna, thank you for joining

21:50

me.

21:51

Anytime where else would I be?

21:53

Well, maybe that's a good question. Do

21:56

you plan to use your vision Pro past

21:59

the review period?

22:01

I do?

22:02

I think, I you know, I think I've

22:05

had it now what okay, two weeks

22:08

with days today, I'm.

22:10

Very prepared for your podcast Wednesday the seventh.

22:13

Okay, so I've actually had it for two weeks.

22:16

Today at five o'clock PM,

22:18

in one hour from now, I will celebrate

22:21

my two week anniversary with my vision Pro review

22:23

you and we will

22:25

be together and well,

22:29

well, I won't go there in the augmented world,

22:31

in the augmented world, and so I will

22:33

say I finished the review about a

22:35

week ago, and I have used

22:37

it for two things since. I

22:39

will also just caveat saying I have been sick

22:42

and I've been very nauseous without the headset

22:44

on. It's just the sickness that I seem to

22:46

have come down with. So for the last two days

22:49

I've just been like, I do not want to go near

22:51

that thing. But when I recover, I plan to

22:53

put it back on. But the two things i've used it for.

22:55

One is working, so I don't

22:58

have the best monitor at my Wall

23:00

Street Journal office. I know, shocking Leading

23:02

it was such a glowing intro you did

23:04

for me, but Leading Technology Columnists

23:07

has crappy monitor, as really the

23:09

headline here, and so I've been using the headset

23:11

to just work.

23:12

I have a very good setup.

23:14

In there with my three different monitors

23:16

or virtual monitors, and I've kind

23:18

of arranged it the way I like it, and I think

23:20

I'm actually quite productive in there. And

23:23

the second is I've been watching

23:25

in it. I've been watching Beef. Have you watched

23:27

Beef?

23:28

I've not.

23:29

Now, Yeah, it's pretty it's a crazy show.

23:31

It's on Netflix, and I watched

23:34

the last two episodes in there.

23:36

So what was the fitting experience?

23:38

So you, I assume got it straight

23:40

from Apple. Did they do any kind of fitting

23:42

experience with you?

23:45

They did, but it was very similar to

23:47

the fitting experience that anyone else goes through, which

23:49

was on the app. Really that was

23:51

the you know, I enrolled my face.

23:54

I did this sort of weird head turns looking

23:56

at the phone. It then gives

23:58

you prediction of what size you're going to be, and

24:00

that was all I really did. But no

24:03

special, no special. I

24:06

think mine fits pretty well. I mean it's really interesting

24:09

because now, so the

24:11

first week I had it, I really couldn't show it to anyone that

24:13

was part of the agreement with Apple, and couldn't really let

24:15

other people wear it. And then after the

24:17

bargo broke and we were able to start

24:19

sharing this, I had a lot of colleagues want to test

24:21

it out. By the way, I'm convinced that's how I actually

24:24

got sick, because they were all breathing in my face

24:26

computer and

24:29

when you put it on them, like you can definitely

24:32

see this thing does not fit them right. It's

24:35

mostly men, and they have big heads and you

24:37

know literally and figuratively,

24:39

and they and they come out

24:41

of like the demo that I've done with them with like a giant

24:43

red stripe on their head, like it looks like they've

24:46

gone scuba diving.

24:47

And I don't have that. I just don't have

24:49

that.

24:49

I mean, in the initial hands on I did

24:51

with Apple in June at WWDC,

24:54

I actually did have that. I had that like

24:56

red mark across my forehead

25:00

and you know, thinking back on it,

25:02

it was probably because they hadn't figured

25:04

out the fitting situation.

25:06

So when I got mine, I had

25:08

a horrible experience my foot four

25:11

or five days with it. I scanned with the app

25:13

of five in the morning and the day you order it and

25:16

scam my face and it gave me twenty one

25:18

W. I then

25:21

immediately was checking like Reddit and people were saying,

25:23

oh, I got that. I don't know if this is

25:25

right. And then when it came out I put it on, I'm

25:27

like, this is not this does not feel

25:29

right. So I got a twenty three W

25:31

based on a reddit post, and I

25:34

just every so often I'd put

25:36

it on and it wouldn't feel right. It wasn't be in focused,

25:38

the eye tracking wasn't working. I just assumed it sucked.

25:41

And then scraping through reddit

25:43

more, I found someone else with the same size

25:46

situation. They said, oh, by the

25:48

N cushion size, and it was

25:51

night and day. And it just feels

25:53

to me like this is a massive supply chain

25:55

issue that Apple is not considering.

25:58

Or is it that they got the sizing wrong when

26:01

you first did it?

26:01

But that's what I mean. Though, it's the

26:04

supply chain of the actual scan. It

26:07

almost feels like they should not be relying on it.

26:09

I don't know if you've heard of anyone else.

26:11

I'm not even trying to load a question here.

26:13

Have you heard of anyone else having this problem?

26:16

I haven't. I haven't. I mean that's good.

26:18

I mean, so, you know, and they

26:20

have the two and so it was the it's

26:22

the light seals what you're saying, the difference.

26:25

The light seal and the light seal cushion

26:27

cushion.

26:27

Yeah, yeah, so, and I have two

26:30

cushions because or maybe everyone

26:32

gets two cushions, but they say

26:34

you should use the bigger light seal cushion if

26:36

you plan to use the lenses, the.

26:40

Prescription lenses. I don't know if I have those.

26:42

I don't. I also only got

26:44

one one cushion with mine

26:46

when I bought it.

26:47

Mm hmm.

26:48

Yeah, I actually think that I had

26:50

the extra cushion because I had the lenses

26:53

too, right, which

26:55

is a little comfier.

26:56

But and the thing is, when it's working

26:59

now, it's great, But

27:01

I feel like the real elephant in the room

27:03

is the keyboard. The keyboard is

27:06

just astonishingly bad.

27:08

Yeah, yeah, I

27:10

Steve Jobs. I'm surprised he didn't come out

27:12

of the grave like an angry zombie over this one.

27:15

It's awful.

27:17

I mean, I assume it's a place that they're

27:19

definitely looking. How do we make a typing

27:22

experience better there?

27:24

Yeah?

27:25

I think that, like, you know, could

27:27

they with swiping, you know, sort of

27:29

the swipe inputs.

27:31

Like gesturing in the air almost exactly?

27:33

Would that be better? Probably?

27:36

Right, It's just so weird because

27:38

the experience feels

27:41

cool. But then you get to the common

27:44

way of entering text into

27:46

stuff, which is very common and

27:49

that you should be able to do on anything, and

27:51

it's just it almost doesn't

27:53

feel like an Apple product.

27:56

I know, and you like, I don't know if you've had

27:58

this too, where it's like you can't touch type

28:00

on that right, so you want

28:03

to like looked out. You have to look at this virtual

28:05

keyboard, but then you're looking up to see where

28:08

your text is going in and is it going right. And

28:10

they have like a little thing above the keyboard where

28:12

you can see the text as it's typing out.

28:14

But it's it's all of this. It's

28:17

just not natural.

28:17

And I even showed in my videos like thank god

28:20

for a real keyboard, and you compare it with Bluetooth, so

28:22

it's like the killer accessory for this is actually

28:24

a you know, ninety nine dollars keyboard that I was

28:26

going to sell you.

28:27

One thing I loved in your review is when you said you can

28:29

have all of this for lo lolo price of what five

28:31

thousand dollars and yet the MacBook throw the

28:34

keyboard, this and that is it

28:37

just feels like the experience is not complete

28:39

without that keyboard.

28:40

In my opinion, yeah, I agree, I

28:42

agree.

28:42

I mean, I think it's fine if you're

28:44

like going to just type in one show, right

28:47

and you're like, Okay, let me go to Netflix and

28:49

type in beef. That's fine, or you can

28:51

use voice to do that. But when you are really trying

28:53

to do something in there, like you're trying to type an

28:55

email or you're I've been.

28:56

Doing a lot.

28:57

I've actually been writing like a ton of stuff.

28:59

I've been riting in there.

29:00

I wrote the four thousand words script

29:03

for the full episode on the Vision

29:05

Pro. I can't write on a laptop

29:07

sitting down. I have to be at to desk otherwise

29:09

my rat brain doesn't focus properly. But

29:12

I was able to sit on the couch and right this just

29:14

sitting there, and that's remarkable.

29:16

I find the focus parts remarkable.

29:18

I think that's and some people have been remarking about

29:20

this on social media and various

29:22

thing pieces. But the irony

29:25

of this being the killer computing

29:27

platform for just two D

29:30

basically notes or documents,

29:34

right like, yeah, that's

29:36

what we have gotten. The future is actually just

29:38

big floating documents in our sky.

29:41

Well to that point, do you think that

29:43

this or a device like this is the future.

29:47

So, I mean, look, that's where I kind of took

29:49

my review, and now I've had some

29:51

distance from it. And been able to reflect and

29:54

again also just thinking about where is this going to fit

29:56

into our lives? That that was the number one thing I wanted

29:58

to answer in this review is, Okay,

30:00

they've made this crazy piece of technology.

30:03

How are we going to use it in our daily lives?

30:05

And it just.

30:06

Seems natural, especially when we have these

30:08

new pieces of tech, you know, whether it was

30:11

the iPhone or smartphones or

30:13

tablets, et cetera, Like we're going to try to do the

30:15

things that we did on other devices

30:17

first, right, that makes sense,

30:19

Right, We're going to try to work on it, We're going to try to watch

30:21

TV and videos on it, like we've been trying

30:24

to do that with all of our personal tech. And

30:26

so when it comes to like changing

30:30

those things, sure, but like

30:32

the future for me and those things, like

30:34

we are still going to have a good future writing documents

30:36

on our computers, right, Like the whole entire AI.

30:40

Vision right now is to make that easier, working

30:42

easier.

30:43

So what I was trying to really look at is like, we're going to be the

30:46

things that are just going to break out

30:48

of the mold of the current things we do on these

30:50

devices, and where will it be better? And

30:52

this is where I kind of got into this cooking

30:55

situation which has gone viral and you know

30:57

now.

30:57

Oh with and just just for listeners

30:59

if you haven't seeing Joanna's review,

31:01

she is able to place with the vision

31:03

pro, you're able to place timers above things.

31:06

So while cooking she made it what was

31:08

a pasta dish?

31:08

I believe, yes, yes, And so this has

31:10

become the running joke

31:12

like, well, did you not know you could also

31:15

set multiple timers on your phone?

31:17

And did you not know?

31:18

And Colbert is you could maybe pipe the audio

31:20

in here. He's now being making fun

31:22

of me on his late night show saying,

31:25

well, what else would you do by two ovens?

31:28

I think Colbert needs to not throw

31:30

so many stones in glasshouses with how deeply

31:33

unfunny Midnight is. But

31:35

that's a separate podcast. I

31:37

think that that whole thing has really

31:39

annoyed me as well, not because I'm particularly defensive

31:42

of Apple, but it's like, if you're going to do that

31:44

kind of thing about a new

31:46

device, there are so many

31:49

that you could have sat with the Oculus quest

31:51

and done the same thing. Oh I get

31:53

Oh I can work out while wearing a headset.

31:56

Well, I can also do that without anything, I can

31:58

just do jumping jacks. You can make

32:00

that kind of thing. Sure, And

32:03

actually, here's a good question. Do you think that this

32:05

is going to make people more antisocial?

32:07

Because that feels like the weird meme I'm

32:10

seeing. It's like, oh, this is shutting people off from

32:12

the world.

32:13

Yes, so just let me finish it. Answering

32:16

the first one because I felt like I didn't do it great. No, it's

32:18

my fault. I was going on now, But my point

32:20

in that review, and maybe I haven't articulated

32:23

this well. I've seen a lot of analysis

32:25

of the review, which thank you everyone for spending

32:27

time reviewing the review. But

32:31

the point was to show things that

32:33

that aren't the typical things, the things that could

32:36

bring this into the future and that actually make

32:38

things better and change the way we

32:41

use these devices.

32:42

And I felt.

32:43

That that situation with the cooking really

32:46

illustrated it. Here is a real life

32:48

thing you're doing. It's better to actually

32:50

have this headset on than use your phone

32:52

because you don't have to hold a phone, and cooking

32:55

with your holding a phone, or you know, even touching a phone

32:57

in the kitchen is a pain. Everyone knows that.

32:59

And on top of that, it was just

33:02

blend. This idea of blending the virtual

33:04

with the real really really

33:07

stuck out to me there, like I have a physical

33:09

thing. It is this part of pasta. It

33:12

is boiling, and I see a digital

33:14

interface over it. And I'm

33:16

not saying that he needs to be every use case,

33:18

but that is where I felt like, Okay, I can see

33:20

the future. So that is how

33:23

I would try to answer that, Yes, I think

33:25

this is the future. We still need to have

33:28

the use cases and the apps to prove out

33:30

what those things are going to be.

33:32

The thing I and you kind

33:34

of glanced at this in the review, but I understand

33:37

why this wouldn't have come up, but

33:39

it's it feels like the apps

33:41

are not there though, like very basic

33:43

apps are not there, YouTube being

33:46

the obvious one. And there is, by the way, a four

33:48

ninety nine YouTube app that

33:50

people are hyping as a replacement. It's

33:52

a goddamn web rapper that developers

33:54

should be kicked off the app store anyway, But

33:56

like Slack isn't there, Signal

33:59

isn't there, Yep, very

34:01

funny thing.

34:01

Slack is there, but they're there as an iPad

34:04

app and it's horrible.

34:05

The same it's horrible.

34:06

I mean I didn't even have time in the review,

34:09

but like there was a couple of places when I was

34:11

cursing because you cannot select.

34:12

I mean, this is the issue with putting the iPad

34:15

apps in.

34:15

They weren't they were created for touching,

34:18

right, so you actually when you're using the Slack

34:20

app and the vision pro, you want to bring it closer

34:22

to you and then actually tap in the

34:24

air versus using the pincher, you know,

34:26

using the pinch gesture. But

34:29

no, absolutely, And I look, we've seen already

34:31

momentum this week with YouTube

34:34

saying they're going to create and more apps

34:36

coming, and chat gybt announced like

34:38

there's going to be some momentum and we're

34:40

going to get some of these apps. But what

34:43

I'm more interested in is like, what are these going to

34:45

be? These ideas of these apps that we don't

34:47

have right now that don't run our computers.

34:50

I agree we have to have those other ones, because

34:52

hey, how do we work in there if we don't have Slack?

34:54

I mean, how do you work without Slack? It's impossible.

34:57

I'm just joking.

34:58

I don't really I'm a major Slack user,

35:00

but would happily use anything else to work.

35:04

So I think those are those things will come with time.

35:08

But on the isolation thing, I think that's

35:11

so. That is the number one reason I

35:13

have not picked it up more, and

35:15

I think might end up being part of

35:17

you know, what happens after this first

35:20

wave of real big interest is

35:22

do you feel.

35:22

Like something I'd ever use around a person exactly?

35:25

And I live with a person. I don't. I don't

35:27

know about you. I love.

35:28

Yeah, I live with with my wife and I live with two

35:31

kids, so I live with like a lot of things at

35:33

a dog and there's a lot of things going on

35:35

in here. And I

35:37

had this situation this weekend. I was like, I'd love

35:40

to watch another episode of The Beef in

35:42

here, but my wife is sitting right here. I'm

35:44

going to put this on on the couch

35:46

and she's going to do what right?

35:49

And then you start to think like dystopian,

35:51

like, oh, what if we both had them and we both

35:53

sat here with these on looking at the wall. Eh,

35:57

I don't even if that was an amazing experience,

36:00

is that what I want to do on Saturday night?

36:01

It feels very doesn't feel particularly

36:03

intimate.

36:05

No.

36:05

No. When mine arrived, I

36:08

was with my fiance and

36:11

I played with it, but I put a hard cap on when I stopped

36:13

because it felt strange using

36:16

it with another person around it just it

36:19

felt very much

36:22

like rejecting anyone around me, like

36:24

I even with passed through it felt

36:26

kind of strange.

36:28

Well, and the pass through thing, while they've done

36:32

a lot more than the others right to put

36:34

some screen on the front, like it's all kind of bullshit,

36:36

like nobody really knows that you're

36:39

looking at them. If I had like a

36:41

dollar for every time I asked, Hey,

36:43

can you see my eyes in this?

36:45

Yeah?

36:45

Right, Like that's the same thing, and the answer was always

36:47

no, right, the answer is always know and you're constantly

36:50

asking. It's just like, please stop asking me if I can see

36:52

your eyes?

36:53

Like the persona thing is awful?

36:55

Is I just why bother with

36:57

that? I don't know what they

36:59

were thinking, king, I know that it's

37:02

this to describe for the listeners,

37:05

it's you scan your face using the

37:07

vision Pro and it spits out a three

37:09

D clone of your face that is not flattering,

37:12

I should add, yeah, and it

37:14

mimics your facial actions. If someone FaceTime

37:17

videos you during your use of the vision Pro,

37:19

I just don't I know why they did it, but they shouldn't

37:21

have.

37:22

Yeah, I think.

37:23

Look, I hit on this really hard

37:25

in my review because I had

37:28

not laughed so hard. I don't

37:30

remember the last time I laughed so hard. When I saw

37:32

my persona, I couldn't. I was like crying

37:34

of laughter. I think it's the funniest thing I've ever seen.

37:36

It just doesn't look like me. And then I would call

37:39

people and they would be laughing, and they would

37:41

say, never call me again looking like this, like,

37:44

and maybe mine was worse than others.

37:45

It seems like to be the case.

37:47

Oh, I have no neck in mine. I will refuse

37:49

to show it to anyone.

37:51

Yeah, I mean, look,

37:53

most people look bad. I just look like

37:55

I look terrible. I'm another level of bad

37:57

in mine.

37:58

So it makes me look so I used

38:00

to be about one hundred pounds heavier than I currently am

38:03

about buck ninety right now.

38:05

It makes me look like I weigh three hundred

38:07

pounds, which is not great for myself esteem, I should

38:09

add. But it also looks strange. Yeah,

38:12

it looks very weird.

38:14

It looks strange and like and

38:16

look, there's a lot about they

38:19

didn't want to go the root of what Meta

38:21

had done, which make us look like cartoons.

38:23

So they're trying to make us.

38:24

Look more realistic and maybe

38:26

eventually they get there. And

38:29

they clearly they've slapped the beta

38:31

label on there just to make it clear, like we

38:33

are not.

38:33

Done building this thing.

38:36

I get why they couldn't ship without it, Like,

38:38

how are you going to ship we've just been I

38:40

actually.

38:41

Can answer that memoji. The

38:43

memoji works fine. No one is going

38:45

to expect you to do a video call well wearing

38:47

this buddy thing. So do the memoji make

38:49

it fun?

38:51

I agree, I you know, and that's there for the

38:53

taking. Like our iPhones already have memojis

38:55

that are like mapped to our face.

38:57

Like it works.

38:58

I think they didn't want to go to the root of Meta, like they

39:00

didn't want to be competing with like

39:03

Mark Zuckerberg cartoon face, you know.

39:05

Like the irony is that they also released

39:07

an incomplete product that kind of sucks. So

39:11

who's laughing now, probably Mark Zuckerbuck

39:13

I don't know.

39:14

Right, but I mean, look, on the other hand, we just spent

39:16

ten minutes talking about working in this thing, so

39:18

how are you going to release a device for working

39:21

in this day and age where you should be working at your home

39:23

office and you can't video call on it, like

39:25

you have to have to have something.

39:27

I I don't know. I find the

39:29

whole thing quite confusing.

39:31

I think you could even just have a still image of the person

39:34

that would do the same job.

39:35

That's true, I don't I don't know why they didn't

39:37

do that.

39:38

So I only got two more questions for you. Do

39:41

you think that Apple rushed this out?

39:44

No?

39:44

And yes, did

39:47

they rush this particular version out?

39:50

No? It actually like it works really

39:53

well, right like, there are some small bugs

39:55

and I'm sure maybe I don't know.

39:57

Selecting on like even Google Docs is extremely

40:00

broken. Basic things like that don't.

40:02

Feel like but that's

40:04

not so that's where that's a design

40:06

issue, right like that, that's can you navigate

40:09

the whole web with this the way.

40:10

This is designed?

40:11

The only reason I push back on that is you're

40:14

right, the whole web, but Google

40:16

Docs what billions of uses? It

40:18

just feels The reason I ask is because

40:21

to me, at least, it feels rush because they

40:23

didn't do their due diligence without the developers

40:26

keep going sorry.

40:28

But then there's the flip side of Hey, these developers

40:30

need to feel and I believe Google will come along

40:33

once they see, oh wow, look we're really

40:35

seeing an x amount of people for

40:37

x amount of time working here. We should probably

40:39

do something. Right, Microsoft did it. Microsoft

40:42

has apps in there, They have all of almost

40:45

all of Microsoft three sixty five in there, so

40:47

like they're making a bet before

40:49

it's ready. I think also Microsoft has nothing

40:52

to lose because they don't have their own headset coming.

40:54

They've sort of abandoned that.

40:56

Yeah, Holo lens is kind of dead in the war.

40:58

Yeah, but I mean, look I think so.

41:00

But this particular version we all

41:02

know this is you know, this is the first generation.

41:04

I've actually called it times. Is this negative

41:06

one generation? Should we should this have sort

41:08

of been you know as people have called it a

41:10

dev kid and all of these things.

41:13

It's certainly not a mainstream product,

41:16

right. The question, like really is should

41:18

they have waited five years?

41:20

Right?

41:21

And would Steve Jobs, as everyone's

41:23

saying, would he have waited the five years? Would you have said,

41:25

Okay, we've got this, so we can do this now, but we need

41:27

to wait five more years until we can slim down

41:29

this and we can make this and we can do.

41:31

This and that's actually my final

41:33

question for you. How

41:36

do you think Steve Jobs would have done this?

41:39

I was asked this on another podcast. I think.

41:42

I keep thinking about It's funny what

41:44

you said before. You know, you put it on wrong, and

41:46

or you didn't put it on wrong, but you had some issues

41:49

with it, right. And there's the famous Steve

41:51

Jobs quote, you're.

41:51

Holding it wrong? Yeah right?

41:54

And so Steve.

41:55

Jobs hated touch screens on laptops

41:58

because he didn't like poking the air.

42:00

Yeah, yes, and

42:02

here we are.

42:04

But like what he have said to you, you know, you're you're

42:06

wearing it wrong again, and to me

42:08

too, because sometimes I'll put it on and it's like, yeah,

42:10

you know, it's not aligned exactly to my eyes,

42:13

and so if I look at something, it's slightly off and then

42:15

I've got to like change it a.

42:16

Little bit right, right?

42:19

And what have he have been okay with that? Would he have said, Nope, We've

42:21

got to wait. We've got to wait a

42:23

number more years to get this right, to get all

42:25

of these things right into a thing that people would wear,

42:29

or what if you looked at it sort of like we've

42:31

got to get it out there.

42:32

I don't know I don't feel like he was

42:35

a god to get it out that guy. It just feels

42:37

like a very different Apple experience.

42:39

It lacks it's almost

42:42

fun in the way it lacks it. But

42:44

when it's I feel like, in a like

42:46

it's kind of funny. I guess it's not really

42:48

fun, but it feels like. Also, the

42:51

format of the vision pro really

42:53

emphasizes the problems when something goes

42:55

wrong in this environment. It's so claustrophobic.

42:58

Mm hmmmmm. Well,

43:01

and I think also what

43:04

we know to be true? And I think Neli Petell's

43:07

review on The Verge did a really good job

43:09

of this is what we know to be true? Is what Tim

43:12

Cook sees the vision of this being right.

43:14

He sees a vision of us really

43:17

at augmented reality type of glasses

43:20

where we can see the real world in this digital

43:22

overlays are there, but to

43:24

get there they had to make a lot of sacrifices in

43:26

the here and now. And so now we have a VR headset

43:29

that's trying to function as an AR mixed

43:31

reality headset, but it really is a VR headset.

43:34

And again, would Steve Jobs

43:36

have said, Nope, We're just going to wait till we get there, we're gonna

43:38

wait five years, We're gonna wait ten years.

43:41

I don't know, Joanna, thank

43:44

you so much for joining me anytime.

43:47

I'd love to see your persona soon.

43:49

Oh God, I will be hiding that from the world.

44:08

All of this comes together to just make it impossible

44:12

to recommend the Vision pro in its current form.

44:14

It's too expensive, its

44:16

experience is too variable, the supply

44:19

chain and infrastructure to get this thing fitted

44:21

is too thin, and the developer community

44:23

is just far too sparse. Without

44:25

a Bluetooth keyboard, it's claustrophobic,

44:28

frustrating, and unproductive. With

44:30

one, it becomes a highly customizable

44:33

and consistent desktop space that I can pop up

44:35

wherever I am the past through feature

44:37

gives me as much awareness as I needed the world around

44:39

me as i'd like, though not to the

44:41

extent i'd ever use it in public. I

44:43

can move around, I can close things and resize

44:45

things with tiny gestures, and when it works,

44:48

it looks and feels very cool, and it's far more natural

44:50

than an iPhone or an iPad or a magbook.

44:52

I guess when it works, and with the right

44:55

fit, it's much much more consistent, looking

44:58

and pitching a menu options feels great, and

45:00

you can sweep and move through apps and website

45:02

like a weird little wizard. When it works, I

45:05

have more space to work with than my regular

45:07

setup, which is a forty eight inch curve gaming

45:09

monitor on a massive L shaped desk. But

45:11

that's when it works. And if

45:13

you're one of the hundreds of thousands of

45:15

people who bought this, perhaps you're listening to this and thinking,

45:18

oh, it's not meant to be this bad, And

45:20

it isn't. But how the hell are you

45:22

meant to know that? Because Apple certainly

45:25

hasn't tried to make that the case. Apple

45:27

has not put in the time,

45:30

the energy, and the thought to

45:32

making this the launch it deserved

45:35

to be. I truly

45:37

believe the Vision Pro could be something revolutionary.

45:39

It needs to be smaller, it needs to be two

45:42

thousand, if not two five hundred

45:44

dollars cheaper, It needs

45:46

to have the apps. But when

45:48

it works, it really is

45:50

something new. It is something I

45:53

will be using a lot. It is

45:55

something that I think could change how we

45:57

consider computing, how we consider the

45:59

spaces we work in and the ways

46:01

we work in them. And indeed,

46:04

if Apple actually respected their customers,

46:07

if Apple had the love for their

46:09

customers that I believe they used to have, this

46:11

wouldn't be a problem. None of

46:13

this would be And I just don't

46:16

think they care enough. And I can't say

46:18

it's worth three five hundred dollars despite

46:21

its warts. I really do plan on

46:23

keeping my Vision Pro and I'm going to use it a

46:25

great deal, particularly when I'm traveling. But for

46:28

the price of a vision Pro, I can get

46:30

a brand new MacBook Era fifteen inch

46:32

one, a terror By iPhone and still have

46:34

hundreds of dollars left to spare. Well.

46:36

I love the immersive nature of this whole thing.

46:39

There's nothing it does better, and

46:41

there's plenty of things it can't do at all.

46:44

There are few reasons why the Vision Pro should

46:46

have shipped in such terrible shape, other than

46:48

the fact that Apple needed to show double digit

46:50

revenue growth to board investors. Apple

46:53

has done very little work to confirm that the very

46:56

basic parts of the Internet work with any

46:58

reliability. Website that

47:00

you'd expect to be perfect, like Google Docs,

47:02

like Google itself, like Twitter,

47:04

even are just not ready for this,

47:07

and Apple clearly didn't reach out to any

47:09

of these providers to make sure they did.

47:12

The app ecosystem marvels the iPhone

47:14

app store when it first launched. The

47:16

problems I've experienced with the Vision Pro

47:19

are annoying. They're frustrating. They're getting a way

47:21

of an experience I've really wanted to enjoy

47:23

and may indeed enjoy in the future,

47:27

and it's not clear if they're a result of bad

47:29

quality control or the limitations

47:31

of hardware and software. It really isn't

47:33

obvious, but the problem

47:36

here is pretty simple. The

47:38

Vision Pro is an intriguing

47:40

and exciting look into the future, except

47:43

that future is one where a near three

47:45

trillion dollar tech firm ships US

47:47

beta hardware with alpha software

47:49

and hopes that will thank them for the privilege

47:52

of helping them fix it. I've

48:03

been at Zeitron. Thank you for listening

48:05

to Better Offline. The editor

48:07

and composer of the Better Offline theme song is

48:10

Matasowski. You can check out more

48:12

of his music and audio projects at Matasowski

48:14

dot com, M A T T O,

48:17

S O W s ki

48:19

dot com. You can go to Better Offline

48:21

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48:37

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48:40

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