0:01

There’s one thing that always brings us together. Something that can

0:03

make even the hardest days a

0:07

little easier, and the heaviest

0:07

hearts a bit lighter - a

0:10

delicious home cooked meal. When

0:10

Jessica and I don’t feel like

0:14

cooking or we just want an easy,

0:14

fresh option for dinner, Miss

0:18

Sallie’s Market is always our

0:18

first choice. Bringing the best

0:22

locally sourced meals, baked

0:22

goods, meats and produce

0:26

straight to your table, Miss

0:26

Sallie’s Market has something

0:29

for everyone (including my 4

0:29

kids). Open 10:00 AM to 8:00 PM

0:34

Tuesday through Saturday, in the

0:34

bustling heart of Downtown

0:37

Gainsboro, Miss Sallie’s Market

0:37

is serving the highest quality

0:41

in locally sourced food daily.

0:51

Because otherwise, history then is just a laundry list. And that's why

0:53

people hate history I'd find

0:56

because they're thinking of the

0:56

laundry list. They have to

0:59

memorize these dates, these

0:59

things happen. And that's not

1:02

history. I mean, it's part of

1:02

it. But that's like the skeleton

1:06

that you hang everything else

1:06

on.

1:08

Welcome to Better Together with Kosta Yepifantsev, a podcast on

1:10

parenting business and living

1:14

life intentionally. We're here

1:14

every week to bring you

1:17

thoughtful conversation, making

1:17

your own path to success,

1:20

challenging the status quo, and

1:20

finding all the ways we're

1:23

better together. Here's your

1:23

host, Kosta Yepifantsev.

1:27

Hey, y'all,

1:27

it's Kosta. Today I'm here with

1:29

my guest, Dr. Paula Hinton,

1:29

historian and professor of

1:34

history at Tennessee

1:34

Technological University. Dr.

1:37

Hinton, as today's episode is a

1:37

bit different from our normal

1:41

episodes, would you start us off

1:41

with a bit of information about

1:44

how you became a historian? And

1:44

what a historian really is?

1:49

So I'll start

1:49

with the second part of your

1:51

question. First, a historian

1:51

gathers primary sources. So this

1:56

is diaries, letters, you know,

1:56

any kind of resource from the

2:00

time period, it can even be a

2:00

vase, it can be architecture,

2:04

whatever it is, that tells you

2:04

about that time period, and then

2:08

they, you know, research them,

2:08

interpret them, analyze them,

2:11

and then they put that together

2:11

into a narrative. And that's the

2:15

history then. So they might go

2:15

through 20 boxes of documents

2:19

from the federal government that

2:19

have to do with the attack on

2:22

Pearl Harbor, let's say, and

2:22

then they'll analyze them and

2:26

give you their interpretation

2:26

then of what happened. You know,

2:30

what the government knew when

2:30

they knew it? If they knew

2:32

anything, that kind of thing?

2:32

How'd you get into this, I

2:35

started out as a business major,

2:35

actually, Oh, wow. And dropped

2:41

accounting three different

2:41

times, I'm still angry about

2:44

that double entry thing. Makes

2:44

no sense to me. I just don't get

2:50

it. So I did that. And then I

2:50

switched to literature. But

2:55

always love to read. So I

2:55

thought that would be

2:57

interesting. And I was

2:57

surprisingly bored with that.

3:02

And so this is back in the days

3:02

when they would actually print

3:06

out a list of the classes being

3:06

offered the next semester. So I

3:11

got my highlighter out. And I

3:11

went through the entire booklet,

3:15

and highlighted anything and

3:15

everything that sounded remotely

3:18

interesting. And when I got

3:18

done, it was all grouped in

3:22

history, right. So I thought,

3:22

Okay, then I'll be a history

3:25

major. And so that's what I

3:25

started to do them. And then I

3:29

took a trip with one of my

3:29

classes. I was taking a history

3:33

of the Soviet Union class, and

3:33

we went to the Soviet Union.

3:36

This is in 1991. Wow.

3:38

Oh, my gosh, you were in the Soviet Union in 91. That was like the last year.

3:40

Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. That was an

3:44

absolute disarray. Yeah. What

3:44

was that? Like?

3:48

It was very

3:48

chaotic. Yes, we were there in

3:52

January. And we were there for

3:52

just a couple of weeks. But we

3:56

ended up in Lithuania. And while

3:56

we were there, they declared

3:59

their independence. And so they

3:59

were invaded. And so we were

4:03

trapped there. And what struck

4:03

me was I didn't know what was

4:07

going on. I didn't know who to

4:07

root for, you know, I mean, I

4:11

had a feeling I should root for

4:11

the Lithuanians. But I didn't

4:14

know why, you know, and it

4:14

really bothered me that I was in

4:18

the middle of this huge

4:18

historical event. And I didn't

4:21

know the significance of it. I

4:21

didn't know what came before.

4:25

You know, I just didn't know

4:25

anything really about it. And

4:28

that was really, really

4:28

frustrating to me, and just made

4:33

me feel real powerless and what

4:33

was going on. And so it's when I

4:38

really got interested then in

4:38

really delving into history kind

4:42

of comes out of that you cannot

4:42

understand the world around you

4:45

and your place in it unless you

4:45

know the facts of the past, you

4:50

know, and

4:50

if you aren't

4:50

willing to find out and learn

4:54

those facts, I think that's when

4:54

people default to anger and

4:58

frustration. confusion. So as

4:58

you're talking, I completely

5:03

resonate with what you're

5:03

saying, if you don't understand

5:06

your past, you're never going to

5:06

be able to reconcile what's

5:09

happening right now in the

5:09

present. Right. So I totally get

5:11

that the fact that you were

5:11

there at 91. That was, my

5:15

goodness,

5:15

it was we, we

5:15

went down to the square, we our

5:19

hotel was right on Red Square.

5:19

And we went down there, and

5:23

there was a big TV screen. And

5:23

Ronald Reagan came on to wish

5:27

the Soviets a merry Christmas or

5:27

a happy, happy new years. Yeah.

5:30

Because their calendars

5:30

different from ours. I mean, it

5:32

was just there was just all

5:32

kinds of historical things

5:35

happening, you know, and some of

5:35

it I recognized because I was

5:38

taking a history of the Soviet

5:38

Union class, but we hadn't

5:41

gotten to the more modern stuff.

5:41

So you know, it was again, but I

5:45

completely agree. And that's why

5:45

in my classes, you know, I talk

5:49

about, you know, presidents, not

5:49

all of them, but most of them,

5:53

and I talk about wars, I don't

5:53

get into a lot of battles and

5:57

things. But I spend most of my

5:57

time talking about why things

6:00

happened. And the significance

6:00

of them, you know, are they the

6:04

product of something else? Did

6:04

they help to cause something

6:07

else does it exemplify something

6:07

else? Because otherwise, history

6:11

then is just a laundry list. And

6:11

that's why people hate history,

6:14

I find, because they're thinking

6:14

of the laundry list, they have

6:17

to memorize these dates, these

6:17

things happen. And that's not

6:20

history, right? I mean, it's

6:20

part of it. But that's like the

6:23

skeleton that you hang

6:23

everything else on?

6:26

Well, I think

6:26

you also have to be able to open

6:28

your mind, if you're not open

6:28

minded to see that, you know,

6:32

there's a much bigger picture to

6:32

be painted, than you will only

6:36

focus on the laundry list, you

6:36

also have to be curious, you

6:39

know, and you also have to have

6:39

time to be curious. So, you

6:43

know, all those history majors,

6:43

I applaud you, I really do. Now,

6:48

you teach a variety of courses

6:48

at TTU. From the history of

6:53

horror films, to ghosts, myths

6:53

and legends, to the history of

6:58

crime in America. As someone who

6:58

knows what scares us and has

7:03

extensive knowledge of history

7:03

in the United States, how much

7:06

of what scares us is actually

7:06

real? So

7:10

that's kind of

7:10

a difficult question to answer,

7:12

but I'll give you my take on it.

7:12

If we're looking at the history

7:16

of crime, and answering that

7:16

question, research shows that

7:20

the majority of people believe

7:20

that there's much more crime

7:22

than there actually is. And a

7:22

lot of it has to do with all the

7:25

media that's available now, and

7:25

how aware we are of everything

7:29

that's going on. And in some

7:29

cases, you know, that play out,

7:34

you know, week by week in the

7:34

media. But there are still some

7:38

dangers there. There are real

7:38

dangers that you need to be

7:42

aware of. So that stuff is real,

7:42

there are really seriously bad

7:47

people. I mean, there's some

7:47

people that are misunderstood,

7:50

but I'm talking to really bad people. They're not misunderstood. They're not

7:51

confused. They don't wish. Yes,

7:55

yeah, yes, they're just evil.

7:55

I've just come to that

7:57

conclusion. You're just people

7:57

who are evil, so you have to

8:00

look out for them. If you look

8:00

at the ghosts, myths and legends

8:04

history of horror films side of

8:04

that, and you know, what scares

8:07

us what is what is real about

8:07

that, that goes to some of the

8:11

topics that I teach. One of my

8:11

favorites in the ghost myths and

8:14

legends class I talked about.

8:14

And most people have never heard

8:17

of this, there was a vampire

8:17

scare in the New England area in

8:21

the 1890s. And I mean, they were

8:21

decentering bodies, and taking

8:26

the hearts out and burning them

8:26

on a rock and then feeding them

8:30

to people they thought were

8:30

victims of vampires. I'm talking

8:33

serious here, now, not Dracula

8:33

vampire, but they believed that

8:38

the dead were somehow coming

8:38

back to feast off of family

8:42

members. And what was going on

8:42

was tuberculosis. That's what

8:46

they were seeing in it, you

8:46

know, the you look at the names

8:49

for tuberculosis, one of them is

8:49

consumption is consuming you.

8:53

And there is a galloping version

8:53

of tuberculosis that goes very

8:57

quickly. But most the time you

8:57

have tuberculosis for a very

9:00

long time. I always sort of

9:00

refer to it as the Edgar Allan

9:03

Poe, tuberculosis, where you

9:03

cough very delicately into your

9:06

little white hanky and that kind

9:06

of thing. And so it's this slow

9:10

wasting away. So when people

9:10

were just searching, you know,

9:13

for some kind of an answer to

9:13

what's going on, and how can I

9:16

save my family? Most of them

9:16

weren't sure it would really

9:20

work, but they're up for

9:20

anything at that point. So these

9:23

were God fearing really solid

9:23

citizens that were doing this,

9:26

you know, this wasn't, you know,

9:26

some crazy cult or something.

9:29

And it didn't happen all over

9:29

the place. But that was

9:33

fascinating to me. And that

9:33

tells us again, we can talk

9:36

about vampires, but underneath

9:36

that vampire scare is a real

9:40

disease or real sickness. If you

9:40

look at the Salem Witch Trials

9:44

again, there is so much going on

9:44

underneath the surface of that I

9:48

mean, just complete disorder in

9:48

the Puritan world and they're

9:52

just reacting to that and then

9:52

you mix in a few very bad girls

9:57

and a really bad Reverend and

9:57

you know, Things can get out of

10:00

control very easily.

10:02

I am curious,

10:02

though. So these are things that

10:06

happened in the 19th century.

10:06

But the same themes continued to

10:11

recur. I mean, obviously, we

10:11

live in a community that has a

10:16

majority perspective on how

10:16

things are, and what the

10:20

outcomes and consequences of

10:20

those things are. Is there any

10:24

way to look at how people feel

10:24

right now, in the end, the

10:29

decisions that they make, or the

10:29

excuses that they say, or the

10:33

things that they pick to

10:33

justify, I hear a lot of like,

10:39

you know, it's the end of the

10:39

world, the Second Coming all

10:42

that stuff. And this may be too

10:42

large of a question to answer

10:46

all at once, we may need to cut

10:46

it up and digest it one at a

10:50

time. But quick summary

10:50

question, what do you think is

10:53

causing everybody to think it's

10:53

n times, it's

10:58

fear of the

10:58

unknown, and change that feels

11:02

like it's happening too fast,

11:02

okay. And if we do see that

11:06

pattern through history, you

11:06

know, with the turn of the

11:10

century that you know, the

11:10

1900s, you have tremendous

11:12

change happening. And you have,

11:12

you know, people living in urban

11:17

areas, you know, in record

11:17

numbers, and they're living, you

11:20

know, in places they've never

11:20

lived before, a lot of them are

11:24

from rural areas, and there's

11:24

just this sense of things are

11:28

happening too quickly, I don't

11:28

feel comfortable in the world

11:31

that I'm in. And so this can't

11:31

be the way life is supposed to

11:35

be, there must be something

11:35

bigger going on, and it's

11:38

potentially

11:38

tarnishing the world as we know

11:41

it. So it must end all in a big

11:41

crash.

11:44

Correct. And

11:44

again, we've seen that too,

11:48

throughout history where

11:48

literally people think it's the

11:51

end of the world. Um, the best

11:51

example, if your listeners get a

11:54

chance, if they're not already

11:54

familiar with this, if you go on

11:58

YouTube, and you search for the

11:58

Dust Bowl, and the dust storms,

12:03

it'll blow your mind that looks

12:03

like the end of the world. I

12:06

mean, this is not a little

12:06

tornado of dust. It's the

12:10

complete horizon, and it's

12:10

coming slowly towards you like

12:13

some big blob of a monster. You

12:13

know, there were many people who

12:17

thought it was the end of the

12:17

world and a couple of incidents

12:19

where they actually killed their

12:19

children and spouse because they

12:23

didn't want them to suffer. You

12:23

know, I think in today's world

12:26

is just the sense that

12:26

technology is moving really

12:30

quickly.

12:31

I mean, AI,

12:31

oh, it's disrupting so many

12:35

professions. And

12:36

that has been,

12:36

you know, the focus of a lot of

12:39

sci fi films and short films for

12:39

a long time. Yeah. And now we're

12:42

living it. So it's pretty

12:42

spooky, scary stuff, you know?

12:46

So Elon Musk

12:46

said, in three years, we will

12:49

have AI that is more intelligent

12:49

than the most intelligent human.

12:54

And I'll be honest with you, I

12:54

pull out chat GPT. I did it. We

12:57

had some we had dinner with some

12:57

friends last night, and they've

13:00

never used Chad GPT. Or he'd

13:00

never he had never used GPT. And

13:04

I said, bro, like, what do you

13:04

want to say, you know, and we

13:07

and I asked him to write a

13:07

letter about taxes and hotels

13:11

and all this other stuff. And

13:11

literally, within seconds, wrote

13:15

an entire letter that was

13:15

coherent that somebody would

13:18

take, and they'd be like, yes,

13:18

makes sense. We can we can base

13:21

an argument and create a

13:21

conversation around it. So

13:24

people should be in terms of

13:24

being scared. They may have not

13:26

they may not have been scared or

13:26

not had a necessity to be

13:30

scared, but just computers, but

13:30

AI is something that will

13:33

transform our world. Oh, yeah.

13:35

It's already

13:35

starting to transform education.

13:37

Really? I'm beginning to catch

13:37

students who are using that for

13:42

their papers. How can you tell

13:42

though we have a program, okay,

13:46

that Tech has purchased, but

13:46

it's not ironclad, right? Even

13:52

the program says now you have to

13:52

kind of take this with a grain

13:55

of salt, you know, and so it's a

13:55

little wishy washy, but yeah,

13:59

it's it's frustrating, and I

13:59

think too, and maybe this is the

14:03

old lady in me, but I feel like

14:03

it's dumbing us down. I just

14:07

feel like we're getting dumber

14:07

and dumber. It started with you

14:11

know, we had spellcheck so

14:11

people stopped learning how to

14:13

spell correctly. What's the

14:13

point then they took cursive out

14:17

of the schools which blows my

14:17

mind. And now this one

14:21

before that,

14:21

Grammarly? Yeah, I use it all

14:23

the time. And I'm terrible at

14:23

grammar. Like when I say I'm

14:26

terrible at grammar. I could

14:26

write you a novel. The grammar

14:31

on that novel would be awful.

14:31

And that's what I always got

14:35

dinged on because I just I

14:35

guess, you know, I'm from out of

14:37

town, so I never really learned

14:39

but you know,

14:39

Grammarly today I was looking at

14:41

it because one of my students

14:41

was using it. And I went on

14:44

there and you can actually

14:44

change the tone Yes, of what

14:48

you're writing, right. So if you

14:48

wanted it to be snarky, or if

14:52

you wanted it to be cute if you

14:52

want it to be angry. That is

14:55

just that just blows my mind,

14:57

business,

14:57

business style or Prag. Matic

15:01

and it gives you a little smiley face too if you're if you're sounding cheerful. Oh my

15:02

goodness. Let's talk about your

15:06

course ghosts, myths and

15:06

legends. What's your favorite

15:10

lesson from this course? And

15:10

currently as a collective? Are

15:14

there ghosts myths and legends

15:14

we still believe in? Yes, there

15:19

are. So I'll

15:19

start with my favorite lesson is

15:22

really, when I talk about

15:22

spiritualism with my class. And

15:26

I'm really looking at modern

15:26

spiritualism that came out in

15:30

New York, actually, in the

15:30

1840s, with these two young

15:33

girls who told their parents

15:33

that they were communicating

15:37

with a ghost, the neighbors

15:37

heard and they came over to see

15:41

and it just kind of grew and

15:41

they they worked out this sort

15:43

of Morse code kind of system

15:43

with the ghost. And so people

15:47

came to listen and watch and of

15:47

course, PT Barnum popped up his

15:51

head and said, Hey, is there

15:51

money to be made here? You know,

15:55

and when you mean oh, that

15:55

wouldn't be bad. So yeah, and

16:00

and it very quickly turned into

16:00

then mediums started popping up

16:05

everywhere, seances and then

16:05

they start to use, you know,

16:10

more and more technologies

16:10

starts with spirit cabinets, and

16:13

then it's going to spirit

16:13

photography and all this kinds

16:16

of stuff. And it's just a lot of

16:16

fun to talk about. But it also

16:20

reveals so much about what's

16:20

going on in the country at the

16:24

time and in people's lives. And

16:24

I should say Spiritualism is is

16:28

the belief that there is an

16:28

afterlife, it's it's

16:31

Christianity. It's not devil

16:31

worship or anything like that.

16:34

It's the belief that there's an

16:34

afterlife, but that there is

16:37

maybe proof of it. And that's

16:37

what they're focused on how to

16:40

be real world. Yes, yeah. How

16:40

can we prove that there's an

16:43

afterlife? So that's what the

16:43

seances are for, or spirit

16:47

photography of all those things.

16:47

And so we see a spike in spirit

16:50

and spiritualism then, during

16:50

and after the Civil War during

16:54

and after World War One. This is

16:54

when people are desperate to get

16:59

in touch with loved ones who

16:59

have passed, they want to know

17:01

that they're okay. That's

17:01

usually the first question

17:03

they'll ask, Is he okay? You

17:03

know, and they liked the idea

17:08

that someday they'll see him

17:08

again. And so there's a lot of

17:12

that, you know, going on. It's

17:12

so

17:14

is it real,

17:14

though? Um,

17:17

I would say

17:17

that I am a real skeptic,

17:19

meaning I'm not convinced of

17:19

anything yet. But I'm open to

17:23

it.

17:24

And here's the thing My house is haunted. And so I mean, you know, I don't

17:26

know, I don't it seems like a

17:29

pretty friendly ghost. I've

17:29

talked about him before on the

17:31

show. We call him Casper. You

17:31

know, he's just things happen.

17:36

You know, weird things happen.

17:36

Probably short circuits and

17:40

electricity, but we think it's a

17:40

ghost. Like I said, very

17:43

friendly. Very nice. And, you

17:43

know, what? Not? Well, jive.

17:48

Yeah, exactly. So I am curious,

17:48

with regards to the spiritualism

17:53

in with it having such a close

17:53

component to Christianity. Does

17:56

the whole the the notion of the

17:56

Holy Spirit, does that, like

18:01

become developed through this

18:01

spiritualism? Or is that a

18:04

totally different aspect of

18:04

Christianity?

18:07

That's something that at least with my understanding of spiritualism,

18:09

that I've not seen, Spiritualism

18:12

is sort of broken off into into

18:12

other streams. And I'm not

18:16

familiar with every one of them,

18:16

but it's really looking at this

18:20

is a modern world. And surely,

18:20

with all the things that we're

18:23

inventing, we can come up with a

18:23

way to prove that there's a

18:26

heaven and a hell. I mean,

18:26

Edison was working on a

18:29

telephone to the other world. He

18:29

worked on that for years and

18:33

years, he thought we can

18:33

communicate with them just like

18:36

we do with the telephone. And so

18:36

when you have, you know, people

18:40

like that, that are taking it

18:40

seriously, it's fascinating. And

18:43

of course, then you've got the

18:43

whole Harry Houdini, part of it,

18:47

versus Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

18:49

was the significance in those two,

18:51

Harry Houdini

18:51

again, desperate to believe in

18:54

it, especially after his mother

18:54

died. He just really wanted to

18:57

know that she was okay that

18:57

there was an afterlife, but he

19:00

spent most of his time revealing

19:00

the fakers out there and so he

19:05

would go to seances. And after a

19:05

while, he had to start to

19:08

disguise himself because as soon

19:08

as they saw him, they would shut

19:10

everything down, but he would

19:10

expose them. And then he became

19:15

friends with Sir Arthur Conan

19:15

Doyle and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

19:18

completely embraced spiritualism

19:18

to the point where he got caught

19:24

up in an incident that kind of

19:24

turned embarrassing, not for him

19:29

because he refused to

19:29

acknowledge that something had

19:32

happened. But there were these

19:32

little girls who claimed that

19:36

they had photographs of fairies

19:36

that were in their backyard, and

19:39

he saw them and said, these are

19:39

absolutely real. This is

19:43

amazing. And he was so excited.

19:43

And other people looked at him

19:47

and said, Dude, you know, is

19:47

this is not Yeah. And this is

19:51

the guy who writes Sherlock

19:51

Holmes, you know? Yeah. And so

19:56

it's just interesting then to

19:56

see the clashes between the As

20:00

to Worlds then between the

20:00

people who want to believe the

20:03

people who do believe the people

20:03

who don't I mean, it all kind of

20:07

comes together. So

20:09

not to take

20:09

it too deep. But I just want to

20:12

just one more rung down. Sure.

20:12

What is it about this fight

20:17

between reality and what people

20:17

make up into perceived reality

20:22

that feeds your love of history,

20:22

like, why choose Why choose that

20:26

dynamic to talk about?

20:28

Well, think of

20:28

an example, I just got done

20:31

teaching Civil War to my

20:31

students in the survey class.

20:34

And one of the themes that I

20:34

talked to them about weeks

20:39

before we even start the

20:39

material is this idea of reality

20:42

versus perception. And if you

20:42

look at a lot of the bigger

20:46

incidents that sort of drive us

20:46

toward the Civil War, it has to

20:51

do with misinterpretations of

20:51

things, people believing that

20:55

something bigger and more

20:55

horrible is going on. So you

20:58

have something like the Nat

20:58

Turner slave revolt. And so this

21:02

is a slave revolt. And there

21:02

were, I think, don't quote me on

21:05

this, but something like 70 or

21:05

80 Whites who were killed. It

21:09

wasn't ultimately successful,

21:09

but it was the most successful

21:12

slave revolt in the United

21:12

States. And so then you look at,

21:16

you know, the the state, you

21:16

know, legislature gets together

21:19

just weeks later, and you can

21:19

read it, and they're trying to

21:22

figure out what's to blame,

21:22

who's to blame. And they don't

21:25

say Nat Turner, they don't say

21:25

slavery, they say, northern

21:29

white abolitionist, and that's

21:29

just ridiculous. Northern White

21:34

abolitionist had zero to do with

21:34

it. Some of them were cheering

21:37

it on. But but they didn't plot

21:37

this, but they believed they

21:41

did. And so you see that in

21:41

just, you know, time after time,

21:44

and the same is happening with

21:44

northerners who are perceiving

21:47

things like Uncle Tom's Cabin as

21:47

being nonfiction. Like there

21:51

really is, you know, the these

21:51

characters really do exist. Now,

21:55

of course, they're based on real

21:55

people, of course, but their

21:59

belief is that there is a Simon

21:59

lagree Somewhere living in

22:02

Kentucky, you know, and that

22:02

every southern white male is

22:06

just like him. And so that's

22:06

where I think there is this

22:10

collision between the two. And

22:10

oftentimes we see people acting

22:14

upon misperceptions, what they

22:14

think is going on instead of

22:18

what really is going on. So a

22:18

lot of history is that

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information, visit Miss Sally's

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dot com. Right. And you think

23:21

that maybe some people are

23:21

acting on misperceptions now?

23:24

And do you think it's because

23:24

they're not willing to? Maybe do

23:28

you think it's because they just

23:28

don't have the time to digest

23:33

the information, the accurate

23:33

information because they're not

23:35

going to be able to find that

23:35

information on a YouTube, right

23:38

or on a tic tock or on an

23:38

Instagram, like they're going to

23:41

actually have to go and pick up

23:41

a history book and read it that

23:44

has primary sources in it.

23:45

I think there

23:45

are a handful of people who are

23:47

looking for information, but I

23:47

think most people are looking to

23:52

justify their own beliefs. Okay.

23:52

And so they're turning to people

23:55

who already agree with them. I'm

23:55

trying to think we've really

23:58

broken down into this us versus

23:58

them. There's no gray area,

24:02

everything's black and white. If

24:02

you disagree with me, then you

24:06

are a bad person. You are a

24:06

dangerous person. You are a

24:09

stupid person. And so why would

24:09

you listen to a bad dangerous,

24:13

stupid person, so you don't. And

24:13

so everybody stays stuck in

24:17

their own beliefs and doesn't

24:17

even listen to the other side of

24:21

of an issue. It's sad, but and

24:21

we're all doing it, though. I

24:24

mean, yes. Oh, yeah, I'm not I'm

24:24

not talking. I've grown to hate

24:29

both parties. The beach party.

24:29

So yeah, I'm not I'm not going

24:34

on one side or the other here. I

24:34

just feel like it's really sad

24:38

that we just kind of spend most

24:38

of our time reacting and

24:41

reacting to what somebody else

24:41

has said about what we believe

24:44

instead of looking into things

24:44

and listening to other people.

24:48

I'm happy to listen to somebody

24:48

who disagrees with me. And I've

24:51

changed my views on things

24:51

before. Yeah. And I think you

24:54

have to do that. If you want to

24:54

keep growing, you know, the

24:58

other guy may

24:58

be right, right? Right. No, ever

25:00

No. You're writing a book about

25:00

serial killer Belle gunness who

25:06

lived in Indiana and was

25:06

reported to have murdered more

25:09

than 40 people between 1884 and

25:09

1908. Of all the women serial

25:15

killers, you've studied what

25:15

stood out about Belle story?

25:18

First of all, I think that numbers probably exaggerated. It could be as many

25:20

as 40. But we know for certain

25:24

there were 12 Okay, which is a

25:24

lot. Yeah. Okay. What stands out

25:28

about her, there's a lot of

25:28

things. First of all, most

25:32

female serial killers aren't

25:32

even recognized as such, because

25:36

we think of serial killers as

25:36

hunting for victims. And so you

25:40

know, I would include a female

25:40

serial killer who kills every

25:44

one of her children, you know,

25:44

one year at a time or something

25:47

or marries and kills her husband

25:47

and remarries kills him. That's

25:51

a serial killer, but they're not

25:51

hunting like a Ted Bundy or

25:55

something and so people don't

25:55

recognize them as being the same

25:58

thing. Aileen Wuornos, and

25:58

Florida popped up, she was said

26:03

to be and I think the FBI even

26:03

said at the time that she was

26:06

the first female serial killer

26:06

because she was out hunting for

26:10

victims. And that just threw

26:10

people off. But Belle gunness

26:15

isn't hunting for them. But

26:15

she's luring them, which to me

26:19

is virtually the same thing.

26:19

Yeah. So she's just not, you

26:22

know, going to go out and get in

26:22

a vehicle and go find them

26:25

herself. She just advertised and

26:25

had them come to her, and

26:29

literally would tell them in

26:29

letters to liquidate their

26:31

assets and bring all the cash

26:31

with them. Wow. So that's what's

26:35

interesting about her. The story

26:35

itself is just incredible. It

26:40

begins with a fire at her farm,

26:40

and the neighbors and the town

26:44

all come and they find an adult

26:44

female body with three

26:48

children's bodies. By this time

26:48

they fallen down through the

26:51

basement, the whole house is is

26:51

destroyed. And these four bodies

26:55

are found. And she's this

26:55

harrowing, because it looked

26:58

like she had tried to protect

26:58

them. They were all grouped

27:00

together. And then a couple of

27:00

days later, this man shows up

27:04

and he's looking for his

27:04

brother, his brother had gone to

27:07

visit with her and maybe marry

27:07

her. And he hadn't heard from

27:10

him for a couple of months. And

27:10

he had been, you know,

27:14

corresponding with Bill and she

27:14

was being very evasive. So he

27:17

says, you know, I'm just

27:17

wondering, you know, if have you

27:19

seen him around, he goes out to

27:19

the farm where they're still

27:23

cleaning up. And he says, Do you

27:23

mind if I just start digging

27:26

around? And one of the guys

27:26

said, well, there were some soft

27:29

spots over there. And he digs

27:29

and he literally uncovers his

27:33

brother in like 20 minutes. So

27:33

they call for the sheriff. And

27:37

they come and then they start

27:37

digging, and it's one body after

27:40

another. And it just keeps

27:40

unwinding from there until, you

27:44

know, I could go on and on and

27:44

on. There's all these twists and

27:46

turns. And then it becomes about

27:46

partway through the story. They

27:50

start to wonder if she was even

27:50

the female body in the basement.

27:55

Did she get away? And so even 10

27:55

or 20 years later, there was a

27:59

woman in California who was

27:59

arrested. And some people who

28:03

lived there saw her mugshot and

28:03

said that spelt gunness and they

28:07

actually sent a couple of people

28:07

from Laporte, Indiana where this

28:10

happened to go out and look at

28:10

her. So you know, this is a huge

28:14

story, and there's no little

28:14

tidy ending to it. It's just

28:19

kind of incredible.

28:20

And you teach

28:20

a course called why women kill

28:24

it's women who kill women who

28:24

kill Okay. Okay. So typically,

28:29

it would never, I mean, because you don't really talk about a lot of female serial killers,

28:31

right? Mostly, they're white

28:34

men, correct in their 20s and

28:34

30s. So why do women end up

28:41

becoming serial killers,

28:42

um, just for

28:42

some of the same reasons,

28:45

others, you know, it's

28:45

oftentimes about money, it's

28:49

oftentimes about wanting

28:49

freedom. So you get rid of your

28:53

kids, you get rid of your

28:53

husband, you know, a lot of the

28:56

same reasons, you just don't see

28:56

the sexual predators, like you

28:59

would see with a lot of male

28:59

serial killers. So that's

29:03

probably the biggest difference

29:03

there. And the course itself, if

29:07

I'm being honest, is really a

29:07

woman's history course. But it's

29:11

like spoonful of sugar, you

29:11

know? Yeah. So we'll talk about

29:15

the crimes. But as we're talking

29:15

about the deviant women, we have

29:18

to talk about, well, what's the

29:18

accepted norm? Right. So it's a

29:21

woman's history course.

29:24

I love it.

29:24

Maybe I'll take it. Yeah. It's

29:26

no secret. We love true crime.

29:26

It's one of the fastest growing

29:30

genres of film, television and

29:30

podcasts. What is it about

29:35

listening to the gruesome

29:35

details of how people were

29:38

killed that we want to hear?

29:40

There's a lot

29:40

of theories on that. One of the

29:42

ones that I find the most

29:42

fascinating is that it's an

29:46

actual biological kind of urge

29:46

that it comes from that sort of,

29:52

you know, hunt, be hunted kind

29:52

of instinct. And so there's this

29:56

sense that we want to inform

29:56

ourselves on who we should be Be

30:00

afraid of and why and what

30:00

situations to avoid, or even how

30:04

to protect our family, you know,

30:04

if we're looking at it from from

30:07

that point of view, and how

30:07

victims have escaped, and we may

30:11

not even recognize that's what

30:11

we're doing. But they think that

30:14

that's kind of, you know,

30:14

underlying all of it. It's also

30:18

a great detective story. We're

30:18

seeing now a rise in these, you

30:22

know, Facebook, you know, sites

30:22

and things where they're trying

30:25

to solve cold cases, right? Even

30:25

contemporary cases, and they're

30:28

doing it seriously. They're not

30:28

just goofing around, and they're

30:31

taking it very seriously. And so

30:31

for a lot of people, it's it's

30:34

playing detective. And I don't

30:34

mean that to diminish it. I

30:37

didn't mean that in the sense that they're just, I

30:39

mean, some of them have been successful in overturning and catching like,

30:41

killers from cases that have

30:44

been close since like the 80s. Yes.

30:46

And even if

30:46

they just reopen a case, that's

30:48

a success, sometimes if you just

30:48

get people to reinvestigate or

30:52

to look at things again, you

30:52

know, so that's been great. I

30:55

think there's also more access,

30:55

like you said, there's more of

30:58

it out there. But I think too,

30:58

it's just, there are some just

31:03

fascinating cases out there. If

31:03

I just think of the last few

31:07

months, we're talking Alex

31:07

Murtaugh, I mean, talk about

31:11

your twists and turns.

31:11

Literally, if I saw that in the

31:14

film, I would just shake my head

31:14

and go, Oh, please, you know,

31:17

this would not happen in real

31:17

life. But it did. There's a case

31:20

out of Florida, the eighth

31:20

Wilson family that is starting

31:24

to open up now. They've already

31:24

convicted 1234 People for the

31:28

murder of one man, and now

31:28

they're bringing in his mother

31:32

in law and some other people.

31:32

It's really complicated, but the

31:36

one of the guys is a dentist,

31:36

and it's just this crazy case.

31:40

And then you have the Chad

31:40

daybell and Lori vallow daybell,

31:44

the doomsday cult folks. So

31:44

she's had her trial recently.

31:48

Chad de belles trial is probably

31:48

going to start in, I don't know,

31:52

six months or so. The Idaho

31:54

murders. Yes,

31:54

that is that is something that I

31:56

am so intrigued about. And I

31:59

watched her

31:59

trial. And it's fascinating. And

32:02

they're not even trying the

32:02

cases in Las Vegas. There's

32:04

other stuff that happened in Las

32:04

Vegas to I mean, that's not even

32:07

the complete story. Wow, it just

32:07

again, it's like the Alex

32:11

Murdock case. He just keeps

32:11

opening up, you know, and they

32:15

just keep adding more and more

32:15

victims to the list. You

32:18

think that he

32:18

killed his wife and son? Yes.

32:21

Okay. I do. I

32:21

didn't at first, but I watched

32:24

the whole trial. And yeah,

32:28

I mean, he

32:28

was like, he admitted that he

32:30

was an opioid addict. Yeah. And

32:30

I don't know, do you believe

32:34

that that's true, or he might

32:36

have dabbled in it. And it looks like he probably did, but I don't think

32:37

he's anywhere near the addict

32:40

that he pretends to be. I don't

32:40

know how you spend millions of

32:44

dollars anyway, he would have he

32:44

would have dropped dead by that

32:48

point, you know, so,

32:49

I mean, I'm assuming you watch and listen to true crime. Yes. Okay. All

32:51

right. So since you've been

32:55

researching what is probably

32:55

your most fascinating, fine,

32:59

like what has been something

32:59

that stuck in your craw and just

33:03

kept you up at night like, Man,

33:03

I wish somebody would solve

33:06

this.

33:06

I think the

33:06

old standby and I hate to be a

33:09

cliche, but Jack the Ripper, you

33:09

know, it's never gonna get

33:13

solved. They've already tried

33:13

the DNA and all that and there's

33:15

just a lot of the evidence that

33:15

they had is walked away when

33:19

people retire. They took little

33:19

bits and bobs them, you know,

33:23

but I would love to see that.

33:23

One of my favorite cases that I

33:26

teach my women who killed class

33:26

is the Lizzie Borden case. And

33:29

she totally did it or at least

33:29

knows who did it. But she walked

33:33

away. They found her not guilty.

33:33

But I would love for there to be

33:37

sort of a some kind of, you

33:37

know, find her diary or

33:41

something. You know, that would

33:41

be awesome. And what was Lizzie

33:43

Borden? She's the one who took

33:43

an axe gave her father 40 wax,

33:47

you know that O'Brien? Yeah,

33:47

yeah. And it wasn't really 40.

33:50

But, and it's actually I always

33:50

thought it was a really old

33:55

case. And it is from the late

33:55

1800s. But there are crime scene

33:58

photographs and stuff that'll

33:58

blow your mind. It was it was a

34:01

messy crime. Yes.

34:03

And here's

34:03

the thing, I gotta say, I don't

34:05

know a whole lot about Jack the Ripper. Other than that he killed women in London. And

34:07

people were trying to solve who

34:10

he was correct. Okay, so nobody

34:10

knows who this serial killer

34:14

was. And he was essentially the

34:14

first serial killer in recorded

34:17

history.

34:18

He's not the first that ever existed. But he's the first in modern history

34:20

with modern newspapers that were

34:25

priced, where the average person

34:25

was, could afford them and buy

34:29

them. And because it remained a

34:29

mystery, it just spread. And you

34:33

know, I could bring in 30

34:33

experts on Jack the Ripper, and

34:36

they will tell you that it's 30

34:36

different people. And if you

34:40

listen to their arguments, you

34:40

would believe just about every

34:43

one of them too. They all make

34:43

sense to a certain degree.

34:46

I mean, I

34:46

just feel like it could be it is

34:50

extremely difficult to be a

34:50

serial killer in 2023. Like

34:55

yeah, because I mean, you are

34:55

literally you've got your tract,

34:58

everywhere you go. There's a

34:58

camera on every single corner

35:01

license plate readers, I mean

35:01

everything. There's no possible

35:04

way that you could bounce

35:04

around, you know, city to city

35:07

across the United States killing people.

35:09

Oh, yeah. Alex

35:09

Murdock, what did him in?

35:11

Really, I think what was pivotal

35:11

where people started to think

35:15

maybe, is his son literally

35:15

minutes before he shot and they

35:20

kind of know when he shot

35:20

literally minutes before that is

35:23

recording a dog in their kennel

35:23

who belongs to a friend of

35:26

theirs, because he thinks

35:26

there's something wrong with a

35:28

tail. And so he's filming it so

35:28

his friend can see. And they're

35:32

trying to think, is there something wrong? Do we need to do something and you can hear

35:33

him in the background talking?

35:36

And he said he wasn't there? And

35:38

there you go,

35:38

technology saving the day? Yeah.

35:42

So yeah, if I

35:42

was going to kill somebody, I

35:44

would get a time machine. And I

35:44

would also maybe go to Canada or

35:50

England where they don't punish

35:50

you as much as we do here. So

35:55

before we

35:55

wrap up, I want to ask you a

35:58

serious question. They say those

35:58

who don't know history are

36:02

doomed to repeat it. In your

36:02

opinion, as a historian, and

36:07

Professor, do you believe we

36:07

have enough of an understanding

36:10

of history to not repeat it? No.

36:13

And I don't

36:13

mean to be negative Nancy, and I

36:16

think I really am becoming so

36:16

negative. So I really try to

36:20

watch myself. But no, we're just

36:20

doing the same stupid stuff

36:24

again, and again, and again. And

36:24

I've come to believe, and this

36:27

will never happen. But it would

36:27

be wonderful if we required

36:32

every politician at every level,

36:32

to master American history,

36:37

constitutional history,

36:37

political science, foreign

36:41

policy, those kinds of things,

36:41

and to understand what has

36:46

happened in the past and why,

36:46

you know, and it can be done.

36:50

And it's been done. World War

36:50

Two, as soon as you know, it

36:54

looked like that was starting to

36:54

percolate. Congress got together

36:58

and said, Okay, we got pulled

36:58

into World War One. Let's look

37:01

at how that happened. And let's

37:01

try to avoid it. And so you get

37:04

all the neutrality acts, again,

37:04

didn't work in the end, because

37:07

you've got a Hitler and some

37:07

big, you know, horrible people.

37:11

But again, they they did learn

37:11

from the past, but overall, we

37:15

just don't do it. And it's kind

37:15

of sad. You

37:19

know, what's

37:19

interesting about history is it

37:22

allows us to have a conversation

37:22

in the gray. It allows us to

37:29

look at where we are now from

37:29

different angles. And I talk

37:33

about my experience with African

37:33

American Studies, often because

37:37

it was so impactful was life

37:37

changing for me. But it applies

37:41

to so many different aspects,

37:41

not just to the history of

37:45

African Americans, meaning like

37:45

the stuff actually studying the

37:49

history of how events occurred.

37:49

I have been trying to reconcile

37:54

this. And I've been spending a

37:54

lot of time in urban areas,

37:58

trying to understand it from

37:58

from people that lived their

38:00

perspective. Was the civil

38:00

rights, actually a good thing

38:06

for the African American

38:06

community? Oh, and was

38:10

desegregation actually a good

38:10

thing for the African American

38:13

because if you if you take the

38:13

perspective of Booker T,

38:17

Washington, there would have

38:17

been more benefit in the fact

38:22

that African Americans were

38:22

segregated and one segregation

38:25

was lifted, there was a lot of

38:25

African American teachers that

38:30

lost positions, African American

38:30

schools, that, you know, popular

38:36

belief is that they're terrible,

38:36

but they were actually

38:38

excellent, they created what's

38:38

known as the talented 10th. In

38:42

those environment. So if we look

38:42

back to the history of civil

38:49

rights, maybe it was just

38:49

unfinished is why we feel like

38:53

we have the opportunity to look

38:53

at is maybe a negative or maybe

38:56

just like an unfinished work. Am

38:56

I on the right track?

39:00

I would, I would say definitely was unfinished, didn't accomplish

39:02

everything that it could have,

39:05

and that people wanted it to, as

39:05

far as whether it, you know,

39:12

went in the wrong direction or

39:12

not was actually a negative.

39:15

People been talking about that

39:15

since you know, like around

39:18

1900, where you've got a Booker

39:18

T Washington versus a W. EB

39:23

Dubois, and they have very

39:23

opposite views. And they are

39:26

both logical. They both make

39:26

sense. I think that's just

39:30

something that people have to

39:30

decide for themselves. I don't

39:33

know that there's an answer to

39:33

that. And I don't feel like I

39:37

have the background to to even

39:37

theorize more than I already

39:42

have. But that is a huge, huge

39:42

question. Yeah.

39:45

It's been on

39:45

my mind a lot lately and really,

39:48

for the last year, it has been.

39:48

Second question is, was the

39:52

election of Donald Trump the

39:52

popular media has said that it

39:56

was because of the fact that two

39:56

thirds So Americans do not have

40:01

a college degree. And again,

40:01

these are statistics so that I

40:05

hear. So if I'm wrong, you need

40:05

to correct me. Two thirds of

40:08

Americans do not have a college degree. So they have a high school diploma or lower. And

40:10

specifically, the white male,

40:16

non college educated vote is

40:16

what sort of put Trump in the

40:21

position that he was. My

40:21

question is, is, why have we as

40:25

a country in the 70s, and 80s,

40:25

done everything in our power to

40:29

lower the labor participation

40:29

rate by taking away jobs through

40:32

globalization and continuing to

40:32

propagate that by essentially

40:36

eliminating what was the golden

40:36

age of the 50s and 60s for white

40:42

men essentially, being able to

40:42

earn and have a single income

40:47

family, all of the things that

40:47

we see in popular culture? Why

40:51

did we choose policy positions

40:51

that destroyed it, and

40:55

essentially has led us into this

40:55

chaotic environment where we're

40:58

choosing the person that doesn't

40:58

have any political background?

41:01

And we're just going, yes, that

41:01

guy is the loudest. And he's the

41:05

most controversial, and I

41:05

believe he'll have my back. So

41:07

we're going there.

41:09

That's a huge

41:09

question. Um, I think that in a

41:13

lot of ways, you had politicians

41:13

who were talking to a larger

41:17

audience, and who were serving

41:17

them.

41:21

By larger

41:21

audience, you mean the globe?

41:23

Like the world? Yeah. Okay.

41:24

But also just

41:24

even the voters in America. I

41:28

think that, you know, by the

41:28

time we get to the 70s, and 80s,

41:33

unions were losing a lot of

41:33

their power and influence. And I

41:37

don't think they were listened

41:37

to as much the thing with with

41:40

Trump, I think, again, I'm not a

41:40

political scientist, and I'm a

41:43

historian. So to me, this is

41:43

history. But my gut has always

41:48

been that people are completely

41:48

missing the boat on this. And

41:52

it's kind of insulting to say,

41:52

and I don't know about the

41:55

statistics, if they're correct

41:55

or not. But it seems dismissive

41:58

to me. What they're missing is,

41:58

I think that was happening in

42:02

both parties. With Bernie. Yeah,

42:02

yeah. Bernie Sanders and Donald

42:07

Trump, they were both so

42:07

similar. Both out of the party.

42:11

Really? Yeah. They're both loud.

42:11

They're both opinionated. They

42:16

both are driven. I thought they

42:16

were very similar in a lot of

42:19

ways, not their politics,

42:19

certainly. But these were ground

42:22

up movements on both sides. And

42:22

the Democrats, I think were able

42:27

to maneuver older politicians in

42:27

and move him out of the way. And

42:32

the Republicans couldn't do it.

42:32

But I think there was a bigger

42:34

movement going on, where I think

42:34

Americans in general, were

42:38

saying, We're sick of all these

42:38

politicians, and we want

42:41

something different. And I think

42:41

that's what was, you know, maybe

42:46

really, something that drew

42:46

people to him is that he's not

42:51

the same old thing, right?

42:51

Because we've had the same old

42:53

thing again, and again and

42:53

again. And it doesn't seem to be

42:57

working. You know,

42:58

when did it

42:58

stop working? Go golly, I know,

43:02

I'm asking you a lot of questions that may be outside of your scope, but just just bear

43:04

with me. I talk about inflection

43:07

points all the time. So when do

43:07

you think was America's

43:11

inflection point?

43:13

I keep thinking of different points and then thinking No. I have this

43:15

feeling that it's early 20th

43:20

century,

43:21

the recoil

43:21

from the progressive movement? I

43:25

think that's

43:25

part of it. Okay. I think that's

43:27

a big part of it. I think the

43:27

Great Depression played a big

43:31

role. I think we also keep

43:31

forgetting. And here we are,

43:35

again, forgetting the past, the

43:35

the 1918 flu pandemic, on top of

43:41

the war, that was the last year

43:41

of the war, you know, you're

43:44

talking about millions and

43:44

millions of people who disappear

43:47

from the planet within a four

43:47

year period of time. And I think

43:50

people don't recognize what an

43:50

impact that had. I just feel

43:56

like there's something happening

43:56

around there. And again, this is

43:59

beyond my scope of knowledge

43:59

here.

44:01

No, I believe me, I love it. Yeah, I could sit here and talk to you for three

44:03

hours. Oh,

44:06

thank you. But

44:06

I will say to that, that's when

44:09

I see just my own opinion, where

44:09

I find fewer and fewer

44:14

politicians that I find

44:14

readable, where they're writing

44:19

things, or giving speeches that

44:19

I think are profound, the

44:22

numbers start to dwindle. At the

44:22

end. That's just my own personal

44:26

opinion. I was talking earlier

44:26

about Thomas Paine, I was

44:29

reading something from the

44:29

American crisis to my students.

44:32

And I thought nobody writes like

44:32

this anymore. You know, nobody's

44:35

got this passion. Nobody

44:35

believes these kinds of things.

44:39

You know, nobody's able to use

44:39

rhetoric in the same way for the

44:44

same purpose. But again, that's

44:44

just my personal opinion. So

44:47

we always

44:47

like to end the show on a high

44:50

note, who is someone that makes

44:50

you better when you're together?

44:56

Well,

44:56

that would

44:56

definitely be my mother. She has

44:59

been an example too. me my whole

44:59

life, even today still, you

45:02

know, here I am Negative Nancy

45:02

and I'll go and see her. She

45:07

brought me chilly this morning

45:07

by the way, she made it at home

45:10

and brought it over this

45:10

morning. So, but if I were to,

45:13

you know, spend some time with

45:13

her this afternoon My mood would

45:16

shift, I would start to see the

45:16

world as a much kinder world, a

45:22

world where there's more

45:22

morality than I think there is

45:26

where things are a little better

45:26

than they are. She always puts

45:29

other people before herself and

45:29

she does things for other people

45:33

silently and happily. They never

45:33

know she's done it. She doesn't

45:37

need to pat on the back, which I

45:37

find really admirable. And I

45:41

wish I could do I always sort of

45:41

need that little thank you from

45:44

people. That's terrible, but

45:44

it's true. So I would say my mom

45:47

Thank you to

45:47

our partners Miss Sallie’s

45:52

Market for presenting this

45:52

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45:55

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45:59

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46:33

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Better Together with Kosta

46:35

Yepifantsev. If you've enjoyed

46:38

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46:38

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46:50

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46:53

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46:53

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46:55

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