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member FDIC. Hi,

1:19

I'm Hannah Brown and welcome to Better Tomorrow.

1:22

My absolute favorite thing to do is have a heart

1:24

to heart talk with my new friends and my best

1:26

friends. Where

1:29

we sit down and talk about all the things

1:31

like relationships and love, faith and self care. And

1:33

of course, the little things as well, like the

1:36

struggle to figure out what to eat tonight. All

1:38

in all, I really wanna ask, how am I

1:40

better today than yesterday? And bring artists, entrepreneurs, and

1:42

friends along on the journey. So join me on

1:45

the journey, will you? Hey

1:51

y'all, welcome back. I'm so glad

1:53

that you're here. Such

1:56

a busy time and it

1:59

got a little bit busier. for me

2:01

because I'm recording this before I

2:04

head out to Los Angeles. I

2:06

got told I think

2:09

like on Thanksgiving maybe the night before

2:12

that Dancing with

2:14

the Stars wanted to have some of the

2:17

old champs to come back and do like

2:20

a fun Christmas dance and it was

2:23

a surprise so if you

2:25

watch last night for the finale of

2:27

Dancing with the Stars this season hopefully

2:29

you saw your girl as now I

2:34

haven't got there yet I don't know what to expect

2:36

I don't know if I'm just doing like a little

2:38

five six seven eight you know a few eight counts

2:40

or if it's a whole dance if it's a whole

2:42

dance I'm probably gonna be really nervous because I have

2:45

not danced in

2:47

a hot minute so we

2:49

have rehearsals for two

2:53

days so I'm hoping it's more it's

2:55

weird because like I don't want it to be like only like

2:58

one ain't counting me like a spin and then a

3:01

point to camera like that would be a bummer I

3:03

would love to do like a little bit more than

3:05

that but I'm also like okay I

3:09

am not in the routine as I was on Dancing

3:12

with the Stars of learning dances in the matter of

3:14

a day or two so I am

3:17

very interested to

3:20

see how that goes hopefully you're listening and you're like

3:22

oh my gosh you killed it Hannah it

3:24

was a little bit more than a five six seven

3:26

eight but not a full three-minute dance routine that is

3:28

that is my hope that is how

3:31

I'm hoping I'm coming into

3:33

today in real time

3:35

feeling like it was so much fun

3:37

and I killed it but who knows

3:41

but that was definitely an

3:43

unexpected little treat because I

3:45

am not only

3:49

going to LA right before the holidays but

3:51

I am off today as if you're

3:54

listening to this Wednesday when it came out

3:58

on my way to Puerto Rico so We're

4:00

celebrating a friend's birthday. I mean for

4:02

Ben so it's gonna be fun So

4:07

yeah, maybe we'll get a real tan instead of this spray tan

4:09

I've got on right now What

4:13

else is new okay, I really just have

4:16

to talk about the golden bachelor because

4:18

oh my gosh I

4:23

Obviously, you know and Have

4:27

more knowledge about that world than most because it's

4:29

you know being bachelorette and being on that side

4:31

and I Texted

4:33

the executive producer as I was watching

4:36

the finale last week and

4:38

let me pull up what I put In

4:41

all caps the first thing I wrote was

4:43

why? then another

4:46

text why Gary and

4:48

then the next one was First

4:53

state oh no the next one was

4:55

all caps Why did he say all those things

4:58

to Leslie and the next one

5:00

was first faith now this I can't handle

5:02

it So

5:04

I mean This

5:06

point is not a spoiler like I was

5:09

so shocked That

5:11

after all the things that he said first

5:13

to face, you know, she was the

5:16

top three I really thought it was gonna be

5:18

faith and Leslie at

5:20

the end of the thing because he had told them

5:22

both on their hometowns that he loved

5:24

them and Just the way

5:26

that he was like talking to them as a

5:29

lead I remember just trying to

5:31

be really cautious of what I Said

5:35

like I didn't say I love you to

5:38

Any of my guys until it was the

5:41

last guy there. I Said

5:43

I was like falling in love for sure. But some of the

5:45

ways that he was saying things I was like, whoa, that's pretty

5:48

bold. So I thought he was like totally all in

5:50

with With Leslie by the way

5:53

that he had just kind of talked to her the

5:55

whole time saying you're my girl

5:57

and stuff I was like, oh my gosh

6:00

And so when he broke up

6:02

with her, I

6:04

was shocked because I'm

6:07

like, Gary, you cannot be saying all

6:09

these things. You cannot do this. He

6:12

told her that he chose her and we don't

6:14

even know what really happened in the

6:17

overnight. Whatever he must have said to her made her

6:19

100% sure. 100%

6:23

sure. That

6:25

is, it was just

6:27

so heartbreaking watching her get hurt.

6:30

And I just,

6:32

I loved her the whole time. I thought she

6:34

was like such a strong woman in the way

6:36

that she was able to articulate herself even in

6:38

her devastation, how she just

6:42

really articulated everything I was thinking because she

6:44

has been through so much with her relationships.

6:46

Like her whole thing was never feeling chosen.

6:49

And he kept telling her and reiterating

6:51

those things. And she kept being a

6:53

little timid of like, Hey, this is

6:56

my trauma. This is how I've been

6:58

hurt. Like I didn't have this, you

7:01

know, beautiful, long lasting

7:03

marriage. I had two failed marriages because

7:05

of not feeling chosen and

7:07

being betrayed in ways. So this

7:09

is really hard for me. And he

7:12

kept reassuring her that he understood

7:14

and affirming

7:17

the way he felt about her. I was like,

7:20

okay, dude, what

7:23

happened? And look, it's so hard

7:25

on that side of things. I

7:28

get it. Like poor Gary. I still

7:30

love Gary, but I was distraught and

7:32

I had to text the executive producer

7:34

about it. And I was like,

7:36

I just love Leslie. I want to hug her. And I'm just cheering her

7:38

on so much. And also she's so hot. Like

7:40

how do you look like that at 64? And

7:45

he just said back, he's like, I know, but

7:47

the heart wants what it wants. And

7:51

I also want to

7:53

say like, I'm so happy for Teresa and Gary.

7:55

I just feel like we

7:58

have to be so careful. with our words and

8:01

in that situation, it's unlike anything else that

8:03

I have so much compassion for

8:05

you're just trying to do what

8:07

you feel like is right in that moment and

8:09

maybe it wasn't the best way to handle things

8:11

and I think we know that but I

8:14

want to make sure I say that I'm super

8:17

have empathy for all people

8:19

involved but it just like

8:21

broke my heart because I

8:23

genuinely knew he liked Teresa

8:25

but I did not think

8:28

that was the way it was gonna end up but I'm

8:30

really happy for both of them and they seem so sweet

8:33

and like they're getting married

8:35

so they are having a live

8:39

wedding for Bachelor Nation to watch

8:41

on January 4th which I'm

8:44

so happy and I love it like they

8:47

only have like their last years to live

8:49

together and why wait so I

8:52

think that is super cool that they've gone

8:54

all in but even the EP

8:57

on the show one of them was like yeah it wasn't how I

9:00

thought it was gonna go but you

9:02

know we're really happy for them so it

9:05

all worked out there's a love throwing in and

9:07

I really hope that they do a golden bachelorette

9:09

and I'm just gonna say like I want my

9:11

girl Leslie at first I was like okay my

9:13

girl Faith I'm gonna be so excited for her

9:15

golden bachelorette because I thought I just for

9:18

sure thought that it would be Leslie and him

9:20

at then but Leslie just

9:24

she's babe total babe I loved

9:26

that show so much I'm so

9:29

excited to can that and

9:32

hope they continue to have

9:35

the golden bachelor and bachelorette I'm just

9:38

really invested in it and think it's just

9:40

a sweet and nice change of things to

9:42

see people with so much wisdom and in

9:45

a real life experience with love and

9:47

loss share their

9:49

love story it's it's really cool so well

9:53

sorry I just had to talk to someone about that

9:55

I mean I'm talking to everyone about it but how to

9:57

talk to you guys about my thoughts I I

10:01

ended up being like Adam, please just I

10:03

don't know what's not to happen so

10:05

I need you to record this because on the

10:08

date where Gary

10:10

broke up with Leslie, I was like

10:12

something's about to happen because he's

10:14

acting too weird on this last chance date

10:17

So I was like, I need you to put it up. So I

10:19

had the whole thing recorded of my reaction of being like what? big

10:23

crap Who

10:25

would have thought? These old bucks

10:27

were gonna give us so much

10:30

drama It

10:33

was great though But

10:37

to the episode today, I love

10:41

our guest Kate Bauer I I

10:45

just love the way that she Is

10:49

able to Yes

10:52

have gratitude for all the blessings in the

10:55

world but also be able to say sometimes

10:59

life kind of sucks and That's

11:03

okay, and it doesn't go our way and

11:05

how do we keep moving

11:07

forward with hope? But

11:10

but also realizing that it's okay that

11:12

like we hurt that we're scared that

11:14

we're mad at God that we don't

11:16

understand and so we really dive

11:19

into that to that in this conversation and

11:21

I Feel

11:23

like we just are really connected Kate

11:26

actually came Here

11:29

during the holiday season to go to a

11:31

charity event and invited me to go with

11:33

her and like we've only met

11:35

through The

11:38

podcast and I've obviously been a fan of

11:40

her work She's

11:43

written some really awesome books so that's how we

11:45

connected initially but then met for the first time

11:47

for the podcast and now She

11:50

invited me to go to this event with her

11:52

and I was like sure and she's like, wow,

11:55

I'm really Impressed that

11:57

you're going with like almost a complete stranger to this

11:59

event that I also don't know exactly what's going on

12:01

and I don't know people here. And I'm like, it'll

12:04

be fun. I like you. I want to like, I

12:07

think when you're meeting new people and

12:09

you really like them, you have to

12:11

like invest. And I'm learning that

12:13

so much more. I'm

12:16

in what they have going on and showing

12:18

up. And so I wanted to show

12:20

up for her. Like she was showing up for another friend

12:23

and we went to this party and it was so fun. And,

12:26

um, anyway, she's just a great human. And I just feel

12:28

really supported by her and encouraged

12:30

by her and like my own work.

12:32

And I want to share what all

12:34

that she does with you guys. So

12:38

I think that, um, you'll really

12:41

love this podcast and the conversation

12:44

that we have. Um,

12:46

I don't want to talk too much about it without just

12:48

like going into it. So I hope you guys just enjoy

12:51

this conversation with Kate Bower. I

12:54

am so excited that Kate Bower is

12:56

in the house. I'm

13:00

really looking forward to this. I feel

13:02

like, I mean,

13:04

I feel like you've made it your mission to

13:07

make everybody feel like it's okay to just be

13:09

as they are and be a human being. And

13:11

you don't always have to be better tomorrow, but

13:13

we still, like I said, I have to try,

13:16

but we can just be, Oh I'm with you

13:18

in that. But I'm really trying

13:20

to be optimistic that it's going to

13:22

be better. And if it's not,

13:25

it's not. I always

13:27

say when I'm talking about like better

13:29

tomorrow, I use it as like,

13:33

oh, I'm sorry, right now I'll

13:36

try to be better tomorrow. It's

13:38

not a guarantee, but we're, but we

13:40

like to have conversations that will at least help

13:43

us on the way.

13:46

And I feel like just

13:48

everything that I've read of yours that has inspired me about

13:56

you does help me get

13:58

through the days that aren't. so great.

14:01

And I'm just glad that we get to have

14:03

this conversation because you just, I

14:06

know, like, I know

14:08

we think you're such an inspiration for your

14:10

strength and courage. You're like,

14:14

I know your whole thing

14:18

because you're just human. I'm sure

14:20

like, yeah, you have

14:22

things that maybe you weren't as courageous

14:24

and there is fear. But

14:26

the way that you have gone

14:30

through everything that you've gone through that

14:32

we'll get into and simultaneously,

14:34

wow, been

14:37

able to share that with

14:39

other people through your books.

14:43

And you guys, if you haven't read them, we're just going to go

14:45

ahead and make sure I say it right. You

14:48

wrote two books while you were

14:52

battling what you

14:54

were, you thought was an incurable

14:56

cancer, colon cancer stage four, right?

14:59

You wrote two books for

15:01

other people called everything happens for a

15:03

reason and otherwise I've

15:05

loved and no cure for being

15:07

human and other truths I need

15:10

to hear. I never noticed that

15:12

the little parentheses how they went together. I

15:14

love that. And I got,

15:19

I found you through your first

15:21

book and you like talking to everybody

15:23

about that. But now in that

15:25

moment you thought you had

15:28

incurable cancer, but now you're here cancer

15:30

free. So how does that all feel

15:32

on there? Yeah. Really?

15:35

Well, cause it's been, it

15:38

is so the roller coaster

15:40

of life is a sort of just never

15:42

lets you off. And I

15:44

started writing mostly because,

15:48

well entirely because I, I got a

15:50

stage four cancer diagnosis in September and I

15:52

thought I was going to die by June and

15:55

I thought, well, I

15:58

guess it's time to like put all my cards on the floor. table like

16:01

what do I really believe didn't

16:03

I sort of hope that life was gonna be

16:05

easier than this aren't

16:08

I actually like kind of angry honestly at

16:11

God because I was pretty I

16:13

know you're not feel like I was really great but

16:15

I was like pretty great you're

16:18

just like had I

16:20

participated in you know terrible

16:23

crimes against humanity I'd be like fine yeah and

16:25

I was like I thought I I thought I

16:27

did what I was supposed to do and then

16:29

life hands me this so for the

16:31

first year and really so

16:33

much of the time about being sick

16:35

is just you being bored in hospitals you think

16:37

it's gonna be some like existential fight against like

16:40

a rocky montage and it's instead like

16:42

filling out paperwork or sitting in waiting

16:44

room so I wrote that book

16:47

everything happens for a reason and otherwise I've

16:49

loved because it was the was

16:51

like the sweetness of the lives that I was

16:53

trying to really think through and if I could

16:57

reckon with my life more honestly than

16:59

maybe I could learn

17:01

how to live like that so I

17:03

think that's kind of what the writing became was how

17:06

do I learn to live like this whatever this

17:08

happens to be and for the first two years

17:10

it was just like high drama

17:13

surgeries all the time and then it became

17:15

the more boring parts about being sick where

17:17

people don't know you're sick and your hair grows

17:19

back then they go you look so great and

17:21

you're like thanks my life is horrible quietly yeah

17:25

and then eventually I was like kind of doing

17:27

okay yeah and in all of it I

17:29

guess what I've been trying to practice

17:31

is how do I learn how to

17:34

speak more honestly about the life that

17:36

I'm really living and how maybe

17:38

do I have any tools to help other

17:40

people do that too and that's what I

17:42

find so refreshing because um

17:46

there's like this self-help

17:49

or like christian

17:51

book culture that everything's always

17:54

like somebody

17:56

will tell a story of a hard

17:59

time but there is always this

18:01

like beautiful bow at the end. That's

18:03

not really how life is. And that's

18:07

when I kind of discovered your

18:09

writing, it was like, yes,

18:13

I know that I'm getting better through

18:17

all this. Like it's life is teaching me something, but I

18:19

really didn't want to be taught this lesson. So

18:21

this is not when the, this

18:24

is not a course I signed up for, but

18:27

I was interested in. Exactly. This

18:29

is entirely, yes, we are of the

18:31

same heart and mind. Like there's been a lot of

18:33

things that I'm like, when

18:35

people ask like, would you go back

18:37

and change your, like the regret, like do you

18:39

regret anything? I'm like, yeah,

18:42

there's something. I would probably go

18:44

back and I don't

18:47

even want to go, really go back to that place, but

18:49

yeah, I don't know if I would love,

18:51

I loved everything that happened. Yes, there were

18:54

so many, yes, there were so many great,

18:57

that's our culture, it makes us do that. And then we

18:59

even say. And then why we can't even just like say

19:01

it, I mean, and I just love that you just

19:03

said, oh no, no, no, I

19:06

definitely have regrets, which people hate.

19:08

The only correct response is

19:10

that it made me who I am today. And

19:13

that's apparently like supposed to stick the

19:15

landing on, I mean, it

19:17

could be anything. But I do think

19:19

that we've got these, and I think the language

19:22

that really helped me is I, I

19:24

realize that so much of the difficulty

19:26

about being honest is that we have

19:28

really tight cultural scripts about what we're

19:30

supposed to say, women in particular,

19:33

and the sort of

19:35

last notes of that song always

19:38

have to be gratitude, no

19:41

matter what. I learned everything, no

19:43

matter what. I could never possibly go

19:45

back, no matter what. And

19:47

that everything is always, nothing is wasted, everything

19:50

is always leading to something. And

19:52

I think trying to say

19:55

the two things at the same

19:57

time feels almost impossible, but one that we

19:59

all know. almost always find something kind

20:02

of precious, like this little glittering gem

20:04

in the rubble of the crap of

20:06

our lives. And also

20:08

most of it might be

20:10

useless or we wish we could skip. And

20:12

I would love it if that were kind

20:15

of more culturally acceptable to say. I

20:17

was going at, I

20:20

was thinking about that because I wanted to

20:22

ask you what you thought

20:24

about, I feel like sometimes when

20:26

you see people be really honest about how

20:28

they are, you get people,

20:32

first of all, look at you like you're

20:35

crazy in person or if you do it on social

20:37

media, it's like, okay,

20:39

we know you went through something bad. Can

20:41

you get over it now and start posting

20:44

pictures of sunsets? I feel that way. Sometimes

20:46

I'll talk about like, I've

20:49

definitely been on a journey with my mental health. And

20:51

I'll have people be like, okay, we

20:53

get it. Can you, you

20:55

know? And I, oh,

21:00

why are we like that? I guess it's just like,

21:02

why as a culture are we like that? Because I

21:04

can also see there's maybe sometimes

21:06

I've internalized that for other people,

21:08

even though I'm obviously going, I've

21:12

been on the other side, that kind of sucks. And

21:14

it's like, oh, so I can't be that honest. You

21:16

really dislike when I post cute

21:18

pictures of me and my boyfriend, or

21:20

now my fiance and my dog. And

21:24

that's what you like. Not actually,

21:26

totally my real self. And

21:28

also an unfinished problem

21:30

because someone out there is like, take talk.

21:32

Yeah. I

21:34

think there's certain kinds of problems that we

21:36

have an especially low tolerance for. Illnesses

21:41

we can't see, so that includes all

21:43

mental illness. Anything

21:45

where you're not like holding, we

21:48

have a prop cast on, like

21:50

at a neck brace. You're like, oh, it

21:52

might not be that bad. But

21:55

it's emotional pain. And that goes for like the breakups

21:58

and sadness of all kinds. And the

22:00

loss of friends, it could be acute grief, it

22:02

could be moving somewhere

22:05

and missing people and feeling lonely. I mean,

22:08

any emotional pain we can't see. And

22:10

I think especially problems

22:13

we can't immediately imagine the end

22:15

of. So anything that's... Because

22:17

this is probably why I started saying to myself, because I

22:19

had chronic cancer and it was like three years and years

22:21

and years. And they'd be like, how are you? And I'm

22:24

like, still have

22:26

cancer. I'm like, I'm

22:28

kind of like embarrassing it. And I'm

22:30

like, it's still there. Sorry

22:33

that that's boring because you already have that

22:35

information. But I

22:37

started saying like, life is a chronic condition.

22:40

And we're all in the middle of something.

22:43

And it's much harder to explain

22:45

being in the middle than it is to sort

22:47

of... When we

22:49

always want to be at the beginning or the end. I'm

22:52

going to ask you about the

22:54

before and after. I think the

22:56

middle is where all the mess happens and where

22:58

it kind of

23:00

sucks. But there

23:03

are some gyms and

23:05

those make it all worth it. I

23:08

just love that you talk about that because

23:10

I'm like, it gives me the freedom. And

23:13

I think a lot of other people would just be like, this

23:17

fucking sucks. And

23:19

I'm tired of just being grateful. We are full

23:21

of people selling a cure.

23:27

And I think it's

23:29

really... I mean, like gratitude,

23:31

for example. When I was in

23:34

the thick of the hardest part of not

23:36

making sure, like not being sure of every choice I

23:38

was making was a life or death choice. This

23:41

surgery, that surgery, will I die on the

23:43

table? Will I just dramatic awful things all

23:45

the time? I kept

23:47

a big whiteboard over

23:50

my fireplace and I would

23:52

write every lovely tiny bit of grace that

23:54

I had been given. A kind

23:56

nurse, like gummy

23:59

worms. from the

24:02

waiting room, every

24:05

little thing that I needed to add up

24:07

to something beautiful, and those moments have been

24:10

given. Being able

24:12

to recognize the lovely things that are in

24:14

our life is a

24:17

way that the present gets given back

24:19

to us, even when the future is absolutely

24:22

terrifying. On the other hand,

24:24

those are strategies. They're not solutions to the

24:26

problem of being a person. If

24:29

there were a cure for all of this, for

24:31

despair and grief and ultimately death, we

24:33

would have found this by now. It's

24:36

just us. It's just us mucking

24:38

around, but this hyper-positive

24:41

thinking culture is mostly

24:44

honestly because the health and wellness industry is a

24:46

$12 million a year industry, and they wouldn't be

24:48

selling it to us if they didn't want us

24:50

to buy it. When we stop

24:52

buying things, I think we'll feel a little

24:55

less like we're one facial cleanse and

24:57

juicing recipe away from. I

25:00

think there's this piece that can

25:03

come over you and it's like, there

25:05

really is no cure for

25:09

life happening to me.

25:12

Sometimes it just happens and I didn't manifest

25:15

it. No. No.

25:17

It just happens. The good and the

25:20

bad. Yeah. That's it.

25:22

That's it. That's it. Most

25:25

of what we'll define in our life happens

25:28

to us, not through

25:30

us, not just to us. It's

25:34

us learning to respond with

25:37

love and compassion and whatever grace we

25:39

can find that then

25:42

defines our character. That's

25:45

different to say than to say,

25:47

well, we can only control our response

25:50

and therefore we have all the power. We

25:52

actually have very little power, but

25:54

what little power we have is beautiful. It's

25:57

beautiful. It really is. There's a lot

25:59

of power. one thing that I heard

26:02

you say about what gratitude is for you.

26:04

It's like, you

26:06

said like it was, it's the glue

26:08

that sticks all the good

26:10

things together. It's something I might have

26:13

buttered that, but I love that because

26:17

it's, it's just

26:19

reminding like, Oh, today, today

26:23

I woke up and I had a good,

26:25

my tea was really great. Yeah. That's like

26:27

just, or the person at the

26:30

counter selling makeup was really nice and hold

26:33

onto those things

26:36

when life sucks. It isn't like

26:38

that. It doesn't cure anything. It just

26:40

makes it a little bit more bearable. Is

26:42

that why I do gratitude

26:44

in some way or do you even?

26:46

Yeah, I do. Yeah. I

26:49

guess I just think of it like it's small math. It's

26:52

like small, good math. And

26:54

like it, it really does add up to something. And

26:56

I mean, you know, if, if a day was like

26:58

a bad, bad day and it was, you know,

27:01

eight hours of chemo and it

27:04

was health bills that couldn't afford. And if

27:06

you add all that stuff up, the

27:08

math of what's hard is those are big numbers.

27:11

So I needed something in the other column. And

27:14

it turns out that it's, it's

27:16

always the same thing. It's beauty.

27:19

It's people

27:21

being hilarious. It's the nurse

27:23

I had that used to let me pretend that he

27:26

was a vampire. And that when I left that he

27:28

used my blood for his own purposes. So

27:33

funny. And he was like really

27:35

creepily stroke my mane when he would

27:37

take the blood draw. He did. And he was like,

27:42

he always made it seem like he was like glad when

27:44

I left the room. Cause he just wanted his alone

27:47

time. That

27:49

made my whole day. Yeah. So

27:52

it's just the

27:55

same thing. It's just jokes and

27:58

delicious food and people who love it. love you.

28:01

Yeah, love. Putting it together. Yeah.

28:04

But we're all just putting it together. I mean, anyone

28:06

who thinks that they've got it mapped

28:08

out is just honestly having

28:10

a moment, a wonderful season of

28:12

luck. And when people are

28:14

in that season, I want to be

28:17

like, bless you. There

28:19

are these seasons where we get it, like wind in

28:21

our sails. And if

28:23

anyone's in that moment, they should not feel

28:25

bad. Like it is a gift. But

28:28

when it ends, I don't want that same

28:30

person to then wonder what it was about them

28:33

that caused them to crash. It's just being

28:36

a person. I

28:42

feel like I am

28:44

constantly juggling so many

28:47

different scripts or intros

28:49

for podcasts or writing

28:53

for my book that it can

28:55

be really hard sometimes to get

28:57

certain tasks done because I just

29:00

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32:02

have now all this insight, but

32:05

what were you like before

32:08

the diagnosis? Like what did

32:10

you spend your time doing? What

32:15

did you think your purpose was the

32:17

same as it is now? Like

32:21

obviously a lot changed and was not in

32:23

the plan, but what was the plan? The

32:26

plan was nerd-dom

32:29

forever. My dad's a

32:31

historian, my mom's a music

32:34

professor, all I ever wanted to do. We

32:37

have so many books in my family home that there's

32:39

just like those sad

32:41

unsanitary bathroom libraries. We

32:43

were like someone needs to do something. This is no

32:45

longer safe for us. I

32:49

just love books. I just wanted

32:51

to be a professor, but I was really ambitious about it.

32:55

I was going to do everything right and

32:58

I was happy to suffer for it because I thought I just

33:00

put in your time and it's all adding up. And

33:03

then someday I was going to have

33:06

like an office with a turret

33:08

and gargoyles and all these grateful graduate

33:11

students who thought it was amazing. And

33:15

you know, and then some

33:18

of it started happening. I got my dream job. Like

33:20

I married my high school sweetheart. I was like crushing

33:23

it on my Instagram life. And

33:30

then I was, you know, like the

33:32

first person in your friend group where the bad

33:34

thing happened and you're just, I

33:37

couldn't believe it was me. I couldn't believe that it

33:39

was, I was like

33:41

35. I had a brand new baby. And

33:43

I was like, oh, no, I've been nine. Okay. So I died

33:45

35 and that the thought

33:47

of it just exploded

33:51

my sense of self because I thought, and

33:54

this was untrue. But I

33:56

thought, wasn't I working my way into

33:58

something special? Wasn't I? I am special

34:00

somehow. And that,

34:03

giving that up, giving that being

34:05

special was just awful. Being

34:08

as special as everybody else is friggin' worst.

34:12

I know, I still try to tell. I'm like, I am special.

34:15

I am. But then

34:17

I'm like, I still

34:20

think I still want to believe that. Do

34:22

you still believe that yourself? No,

34:25

it did something. It

34:29

did something, and part of it is good and part of

34:31

it was bad. The bad part

34:33

was I was

34:37

treated so badly in the diagnosis process

34:39

where it was, I mean, by

34:42

the time I made anybody pay attention

34:44

to my symptoms, it was already stage four because

34:46

they didn't. So you knew there was stuff going on.

34:48

Yeah. And I, I mean, I... Was

34:50

it like your stomach pain? Yeah. Okay.

34:54

I begged, I pleaded. And the reason I ended up getting the

34:56

scan that showed my cancer was that I

35:00

screamed at a human man in

35:02

a doctor's office, which

35:04

felt very not Canadian. Yeah.

35:06

I was so compliant. And I

35:09

was like, you guys,

35:11

I'm in debilitating pain. Yeah.

35:14

But I, so I think by the time

35:16

I got, by

35:19

the time I found out what exactly was

35:22

wrong, I really did feel worthless. So

35:24

when it was so bad, it like confirmed

35:26

something in me that shouldn't have been confirmed,

35:29

which was that I was disposable. And

35:32

that feeling is something I see and I

35:34

saw in other people

35:36

who had, who like walked a hard

35:39

road. And that bit is like,

35:42

it's hard to undo. That

35:44

bit needs everybody to be like, no, you

35:46

really are. The world would be so different

35:48

without you. You are a

35:50

delight and a gift. You know, like that

35:53

part was wrong and

35:55

that's taken a bit, but the part

35:57

that was right was that

35:59

I was. humbled. I thought I was

36:01

like climbing a ladder just that way. And then

36:03

it turns out I wasn't. Just

36:07

took the ladder. It was like,

36:09

Oh, no rungs. How do ladders

36:12

work then? Yeah. So

36:15

trying to give up on believing

36:17

that I am special,

36:21

that I'm an exception to the role that life

36:23

happens to all of us. That

36:26

changed my life. Yeah. And

36:28

you're still I don't love it. But

36:31

then was there a part of you? And maybe

36:33

this is not the right question to ask, but I'm gonna

36:35

ask it anyway. Uh,

36:40

I also I kind of

36:42

hate doing this. But this is the way that I guess I try to

36:44

empathize in the world tries to do it. Be like, I

36:46

understand. I don't understand. Yeah, I don't understand.

36:49

But I think I was so young when

36:51

I had, I had

36:54

like these intense stomach pain. And

36:57

I remember it was

37:00

same. That's what sucks about like,

37:04

the medical everything

37:06

in America is like, it

37:08

takes so long for somebody to actually

37:11

believe you. But my

37:13

mom, I think yelled at someone and

37:15

finally got everything. To

37:18

find out like, yeah, I had a malignant tumor and

37:21

I needed care immediately. And

37:23

I was but then I guess, then

37:26

I did feel special. I

37:28

was lucky. Or I survived. Or I didn't

37:31

have to go through chemotherapy. And I really hate when

37:33

people like, Oh my gosh, you had childhood cancer. I'm

37:35

like, I don't that's

37:37

not no. Because I don't

37:39

want to be put. I didn't go

37:41

through all the pain I could have gone through. It

37:44

was really scary. And my

37:46

parents had to talk to the oncologist that was like,

37:48

Yeah, your daughter has a tumor on

37:51

her pancreas that is filled with malignant

37:53

cells. And we don't know if we can

37:55

get it out like that. Sucked. I

37:58

was sick. But

38:00

then I'm fine. Well,

38:06

you're, I know you

38:09

survived the uncurable. Is

38:11

there something in you

38:14

that feels like, Oh,

38:17

maybe all the great stuff

38:19

I did. Say

38:21

with me, because we're in that process. I think

38:23

that kind of gets to the prosperity gospel of

38:25

like, just like our life is like, if

38:28

I've done all these good things, I might go through

38:30

this bad thing, but I'm going to

38:32

survive. But then on the backside of

38:34

that, I know people that were also

38:37

really good people. Also their

38:40

children that were around me that their

38:43

cancer worse

38:45

and they died. And

38:48

so there's like this thing that I think

38:51

we're all trying to balance of like. Yeah.

38:55

I want to hold on to yes, I'm special. And yes,

38:57

something that I did matters and

38:59

the way that I talk and the myself

39:02

and other people and the way that

39:04

I pray and the way that I serve the Lord

39:06

all adds up to something. But then when

39:08

you do that, you discount the people are

39:12

the alternative. That could have been my

39:14

life that how now

39:17

do you look at that? When

39:19

I was in my twenties, I

39:22

spent most of it interviewing

39:25

people who were

39:28

trying to preach the solution

39:30

to illness, to

39:32

poverty, to family alienation. They,

39:37

you know, the prosperity gospel, the idea

39:39

that God wants to make you healthy,

39:41

wealthy and happy and which is the

39:43

dominant spiritual theology

39:45

of about, well,

39:48

it's about 60% of churches over 10,000. So

39:52

the of the biggest churches, it's the most popular

39:55

thing that you're going to hear. And

39:57

I spent most of my twenties ruining

39:59

family vacation. traveling around with

40:01

a little clipboard, interviewing the preacher

40:04

and interviewing people in the

40:06

pews. I spent, I guess, so

40:09

much time with people who

40:12

were saying the right

40:14

prayers, who'd spent a lot of money,

40:17

who'd traveled long distances, who

40:20

were extremely, in my opinion, like, very

40:23

spiritually brave people to

40:25

even ask for cures for

40:27

things that felt impossible. And

40:30

I, I mean, I've sat with people

40:32

in wheelchairs,

40:35

desperate for to walk

40:37

again with parents who just lost

40:39

their kids at funerals, at prosperity

40:41

gospel funerals, which are, in my

40:43

opinion, the saddest, the saddest

40:46

ritual in the world is saying, is

40:49

having to grieve something that they did just

40:52

one second before said was impossible. And

40:54

so I, I feel

40:57

like I just have all of those stories in me

41:00

about people who did all the right things. And

41:03

so when I

41:05

did all the right things, and

41:07

it still happened to me, and now

41:11

I'm doing really, really well, I guess

41:13

what I try to hold in that thing

41:15

is that one little space, is that thin

41:17

space between the idea

41:19

that everything is possible,

41:21

which is prosperity

41:23

gospel or health and wellness,

41:25

or everybody's recent

41:28

cousin with an essential oil program. So

41:32

we're so happy for. And

41:35

then the other side that we also can't do,

41:37

which is that nothing is possible. And

41:40

that is the place of despair and the place where

41:42

we then don't know what our actions are for. And

41:44

then we wouldn't even know how to try anyway. And

41:47

I think that space between is something more like,

41:50

what is possible today. And

41:53

that is a good place. That

41:55

is a place of the words that I

41:57

love our limited agency. If agency

41:59

is what we can do. We have

42:01

limited agency. But we

42:03

still, I mean, but in there is still

42:05

possibility. Yes. And anyone who's

42:07

like committed to some kind of fitness program

42:09

knows like these tiny incremental things can become

42:11

something amazing.

42:15

But China sort of, I

42:17

think trying to land all of our

42:20

hopes on such a small

42:22

runway is hard. And I

42:24

think we end up getting kind of stuck between

42:26

a lot. I'm constantly

42:28

in the everything is possible. I'm

42:30

like a new year's nightmare. I

42:33

have like 20 new resolutions. I'm

42:35

like constantly obsessed with my own

42:37

perfectability. And then I'll pitch back

42:39

into like, well, I guess nothing is possible. So

42:41

I'm that. I'm that. This

42:48

show is sponsored by BetterHelp. So

42:51

the holidays are coming up. When

42:54

it comes to gift giving, my

42:56

family's picked it pretty seriously. We

42:58

really love, I think

43:00

we are a family that really

43:02

appreciates a good gift. That's

43:05

thoughtful. That's something we need or is

43:07

an experience, a vacation that we can

43:09

take together. We've kind of done a

43:11

little of everything. But

43:15

it's all really about taking that time to be

43:17

together. And I get

43:20

really upset when people try to

43:22

open gifts by another person opening a gift. No,

43:24

we all wait. And we take the time to

43:26

really let the person open their gift, have their

43:28

moment. The person that gave the gift can explain

43:31

why they gave the gift. That's

43:33

how we do it. But whether or not

43:35

your family gives gifts during the holidays, you

43:37

get to define how you give to yourself.

43:40

And the holidays are a great time

43:42

to do that. So whether it's by

43:45

starting therapy, going easier on yourself during

43:47

the tough moments or treating yourself to

43:49

a day of complete rest, remember

43:52

to give yourself some love this holiday

43:54

season. If you're thinking of

43:56

starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's

43:59

entirely online. to

46:00

bless us or like what is God's desire for

46:02

our life? I think that is in that

46:05

in between, but what is it that he's wanting

46:08

for us and from us? Yeah.

46:11

Yeah. And blessed is such a perfect word

46:13

because it gets so loaded in our

46:15

culture with like Instagram

46:17

hashtag blessed. There can be

46:19

the version where we've kind

46:21

of shellacked it with so much shine

46:23

that we can't actually then say like, what

46:26

are we really asking? What

46:29

was God asking from us and

46:31

what are we even trying to do with our lives? I

46:33

feel like the blessing language is so helpful

46:36

for me because it lets

46:38

us try to practice answering that question. Like, so what

46:40

does God want from us and what should we do

46:42

with our lives? Well, I

46:45

mean, I mean, so much

46:48

of what we've been talking about is like practicing

46:51

cultural and spiritual honesty.

46:54

I think honesty

46:56

is a start. What

46:59

then in our

47:01

limitation are we then pulled into

47:03

doing? I do think that we're

47:07

called to love and serve. Like and

47:09

most of it will be very boring, but

47:11

like our awareness shouldn't

47:14

be the final goal is

47:18

I just laugh because so

47:21

much of the stuff that I read in self-help books

47:23

is just trying to make me more and more aware

47:25

of myself. But it doesn't do like

47:27

the next chapter, which is like, well, great cool

47:29

with all this awareness and like, what am I

47:31

for? We're

47:34

for love. We're

47:36

for like being in

47:38

a web of love with other people and carrying the weight

47:41

of their dumb lives too. It's

47:43

not just my dumb life. So

47:46

it's so funny, but like all of this is

47:48

trying to pull us into changing us. Most

47:51

of it I think will be because other people need

47:53

us too. Yeah.

47:57

I feel like I'm kind of in that. to

48:02

admit I think I

48:04

never was aware and now I'm like

48:06

fully aware of everything and

48:09

I don't like where I'm like I'm very self-aware of the

48:12

things and I'm not trying to wear that as a badge

48:14

of honor it's like now now that I'm aware how do

48:16

I now believe yeah

48:22

what do I do with this mess and to

48:24

really be able to say now

48:27

that I know all the things I know about

48:29

myself and I've accepted that to

48:31

feel like God

48:34

still is like oh

48:37

but this is what now this is all that

48:39

I want you to use now there's like a

48:43

that part of awareness is

48:45

important but like you

48:47

said it's like now that I

48:49

know all this how can I use my

48:52

unique yeah crap

48:55

yeah to actually

48:58

help in some way I

49:00

mean I there's a

49:02

perfect theological word for

49:05

that exact experience and I

49:08

like it when I think about limited

49:10

agency that we can change a little bit

49:13

but if we really want to but

49:16

also just what you're describing which is that

49:18

like but we are we

49:21

are made to be changed like the

49:23

transformation is also like little

49:26

blobby worm to butterfly like we're

49:28

we're we're also on this earth

49:31

to to become more and

49:33

like the word is sanctification it's

49:35

like it's the refining making

49:38

transforming making I mean

49:40

we're supposed to be kind of made more beautiful

49:42

in love so I

49:45

want to be sanctified like it sounds

49:49

it sounds a lot more boring than I'm hoping it's gonna

49:51

be I

49:53

want to be like lovely

49:57

and how I know how to be useful other

50:00

people in this life. But

50:02

I also want to get to the place where I feel

50:04

like I know I'm not

50:07

lovely yet but I'm still worth a

50:12

person that I can

50:14

still reach my hand down and I

50:16

can't save someone but I'm yeah, I

50:18

can bring them on a journey to or

50:21

be there for their theirs and I don't have to

50:23

be any other way than just me. That's

50:26

a hard that's hard for me to get to.

50:28

Just That's good,

50:30

believing it. Yes, I want

50:32

to be

50:34

sanctified I guess. Is that how you say

50:36

that? But I'm

50:38

not fully there yet. No, that's

50:41

I don't and I don't think we get anywhere. I think

50:43

we just keep doing it. Is this just it? Yeah, I don't

50:45

think we get there. Weirdly

50:48

because there are a bunch of religious groups

50:50

that I studied where they they're called perfectionists

50:52

and they're like done. I don't think I'll

50:54

laugh at me, nice. Tell me

50:56

how that goes. You've studied

50:58

a lot about religion. You grew

51:00

up religious. I'm assuming.

51:02

Yeah, right Christian. Yep. Is

51:06

there anything that while you were

51:09

studying, searching that

51:12

you were taught to believe is true that

51:16

you found maybe wasn't and how

51:21

did you not freak? I'm

51:23

freaking out. I'm

51:27

hoping that's no, but that's so

51:30

everyone asked that question and I really like it.

51:34

Not that way. Not that not. Yeah, no, I

51:36

could I grew up a kind of a in

51:38

a funny Sorry

51:40

to this particular religious group, but I could

51:42

have been a pretty weird religious group called

51:44

Mennonites and they're constantly

51:47

making furniture and baking

51:49

things. What's the difference between

51:51

being Amish and yeah, they're like theological cousins.

51:53

Okay, it's kind of like a Baptist and

51:55

Methodist person. Are they are they feel like

51:57

they're actually totally different? Well these ones both

52:00

have a reluctance to

52:02

embrace the modern world. Okay.

52:05

And, but still mostly do. Okay. And

52:09

it's kind of like being part of a tribe, because it's

52:12

like a, we would say, ethnic religious group, but it's like

52:14

an ethnic group and a religious group. So they felt like

52:16

a language and their own food

52:18

and their own jokes. And I

52:21

like it. Yeah. I

52:23

do. So I grew up

52:25

in a religious world that was, that had

52:27

a bubble and the bubble was really, it

52:30

was fun in there. It was

52:32

seamless, you know, the

52:34

bubble was great. It was. And

52:37

I, and that,

52:39

and that has like a, I

52:42

don't know, it has like a familiarity to it. I

52:45

still, I, and

52:47

I love those communities so much. And I'm, I feel

52:49

really grateful that I got to grow up inside that

52:51

feeling of, of

52:54

people who know each other's stories. But

52:57

the thing that I, I guess I have changed the

52:59

most in is, maybe

53:02

because I became a scholar of religion

53:04

is I'm constantly in other people's bubbles.

53:07

Watching them do things that are almost, who

53:09

are not always very familiar to me. And

53:11

they're always weird. And every, so much weird

53:13

is, they're always weird. And

53:16

every group is so weird. My group

53:18

included, but every group is weird.

53:20

And I

53:22

think that's made me realize that there's,

53:26

every group has some stuff I really

53:28

wish we could skip. And they

53:30

almost always have one sort of superpower. I

53:32

was going to ask you if there was like a group

53:35

that you studied that you were like, you ever felt like,

53:37

oh, they have it more figured out

53:39

than everyone else. Or does everybody just kind

53:41

of have their stuff? Well, you're like, no,

53:43

it's so weird. I mean, I'm just thinking,

53:45

I really like different,

53:48

like for example, if

53:50

my life is genuinely going like fully off

53:52

the rails, I

53:54

can't go to a very proper church because I

53:56

will get a very proper prayer. And I'm

53:58

not interested in a very proper. for prayer at that moment.

54:00

You don't understand how bad my life

54:03

is. I like going to the ones who

54:05

go for gold. So

54:09

certain kinds of Pentecostals, for example, they're

54:11

like, who knows what can happen? I was like,

54:14

great. Let's see

54:16

what we can do. So that

54:18

religious tradition I love for

54:20

prayer. Other ones are way better if you say,

54:22

need a meal plan and

54:24

your family wants lasagna for two years,

54:27

then you should become. You should

54:29

join a Methodist or Presbyterian.

54:31

I was going to say, bad

54:33

days. Bad days are crazy.

54:36

Or, you know, my

54:39

Muslim friends are super good at the regularity of

54:41

their prayer and they're like, on it, done. I'm like,

54:43

oh, you really are praying for me. This is great. So

54:46

I've, I think the gift has been

54:48

in learning to be outside my own bubble and kind

54:51

of be able to borrow from this. Isn't

54:54

that scary?

54:56

But I also think, and I wonder

54:58

what your thoughts on this are. I

55:01

have a lot of

55:03

friends, especially like in LA would say, like, all

55:05

different religions are, we're all pointing the same

55:07

direction just on a different boat. Do

55:10

you think that's true? No, no, no, no,

55:12

and it's partly,

55:14

it sounds great. It does. But that's because

55:16

we don't know enough about other people's beliefs.

55:19

And if we did, we'd be like, wow, that's

55:21

really different. And you just, if someone feels like

55:23

they're the same, just ask five more questions.

55:26

But isn't that, I think that that's the

55:28

scary part too. It's to be like, oh,

55:31

we're so different. How

55:33

can we be in community together? But there

55:35

is a way. I mean, there are all

55:37

kinds of things that people

55:40

can come to really beautiful agreement about,

55:43

about the nature of God,

55:46

about community, about justice. But

55:48

in most of the particulars, well,

55:52

it really depends which group, but it is,

55:55

that is one of my favorite things about being a scholar of

55:57

religion is looking at the fact that because you're a scholar of

55:59

religion, people have been woven through different

56:01

stories over the centuries that

56:05

we really do disagree about

56:08

many, many, many things. And learning about the

56:11

disagreement, I think, is where good

56:13

conversation and also mutual understanding is

56:16

built. Are there still things

56:18

in what you believe that you

56:20

have like a hard time? Yeah.

56:23

Actually, I feel like I say I believe this, but this

56:25

is really hard. I feel like I

56:27

have that and there's some things that

56:31

I'm just like, God, I don't

56:33

understand why you want it this way. It doesn't

56:35

make that much sense to me. Yeah. But

56:38

I'm just going to trust you. But I still don't

56:41

understand. I don't know if I, I don't

56:43

know if I agree with that, God. It's

56:45

just also like totally so ridiculous. I

56:47

don't think any of us have fully figured out. No.

56:51

And part of that

56:53

gives me a little piece. Also lots of anxiety

56:55

because I'm like, well, wait, wait, wait,

56:57

wait. Yeah, exactly. Show me the right answer.

57:00

But if nobody knows, I

57:03

teach at a divinity school and so

57:06

we've got a faculty of maybe 50

57:08

different people and we have 50 different

57:10

sets of beliefs. We're pretty close. But

57:14

the differences actually do bring me a lot

57:16

of comfort is because we don't, we

57:19

don't make tests for each other. There's

57:21

no, I've never been in a faculty

57:24

meeting where people like started

57:26

picking on the particulars of other people's

57:29

differences. There's

57:31

just 50 unbelievably smart people. And if I really

57:33

want to know more about that thing, I can

57:35

go knock on their door. And that

57:37

is my version of like the kingdom of heaven.

57:39

That's what to say. Pretty smart

57:41

people who are quite kind.

57:44

Quite kind and acknowledge

57:47

what other people believe to be true. And

57:50

that doesn't mean that it discounts what they believe. Yeah.

57:52

And they show up with food when I'm sad. So

57:55

that's where we need to go. I

58:00

want to ask you about, let me not do it, but

58:02

about when you have, you were told that

58:16

death is upon you. We

58:18

all know it is, but like, yeah,

58:20

we forget, but then to be

58:23

like really told like, no, you

58:26

have an incurable cancer. I

58:33

mean, I think of this song by a Timmer girl, like

58:35

the live like you were dying song. Yeah. What,

58:39

I think there's that and then there's also, I

58:41

think there can be a lot of other ways

58:43

to handle that type of news. And I don't

58:45

think it's always like making bucket list and checking

58:48

them off. But what

58:50

was your instinctual reaction to

58:53

that type of news? And like, did you

58:55

go into action? Did

58:58

you grieve or were

59:01

you making the bucket list? Totally.

59:03

Totally. So funny you brought the Timmukra live like you

59:06

were dying. Because I'm like, you know what happens

59:08

when you're dying? Paperwork. You

59:10

know what happens when you're dying? It's like,

59:12

when did he just

59:14

not do the paperwork? I know. And

59:17

go ride that bull? There's so many

59:19

logistics to being miserable. Yeah,

59:21

it's, I

59:24

guess, I guess

59:26

it was, I guess it really was all the

59:28

above. I mean, the

59:32

most vivid memories I have of that are

59:35

right when I would wake up, I would forget that

59:37

I was dying. And I'd have to

59:39

remember all over again. And I

59:41

couldn't, I genuinely couldn't believe it

59:43

was me. I

59:46

felt like it had to be

59:48

a mistake. Because you're

59:51

in, because you're only in

59:53

your own body. Like, and you can't believe

59:55

that your body is somehow

59:58

like not being controlled by your

1:00:00

like will and your heart and your

1:00:02

love. You're like, you don't I can't be

1:00:04

dying. I have stuff to do. And these people

1:00:06

need me. So that felt that

1:00:09

kind of grief felt like a title live.

1:00:11

I mean, I mean, I had to make

1:00:14

a lot of rules honestly to manage the grief. No

1:00:17

sad songs. You know,

1:00:19

no Taylor Swift after 7pm. Don't

1:00:22

answer the question. How are you? People

1:00:26

tell them by accident and then the day's over. That

1:00:29

is me all the time with just

1:00:31

my brain and mental health. I'm like,

1:00:34

please don't ask me I am. I'll

1:00:36

tell you. I will tell you. And then

1:00:38

my day will be worse. And then your

1:00:40

day will also. And both our

1:00:42

days will be good. Be good.

1:00:45

Do I need to call someone? Exactly. Yeah.

1:00:49

I said the grief was

1:00:51

sometimes overwhelming. And

1:00:55

and I do still sometimes to be

1:00:57

honest, feel confused about

1:01:02

really like if I'm okay or if other people are okay,

1:01:04

because I just have so many people in my life who

1:01:06

have who are sick

1:01:08

and because of the nature of my work, a lot of

1:01:11

people reach out. And so sometimes I'm

1:01:13

like, oh my gosh, is the whole world dying is a

1:01:15

thought that I have more often

1:01:17

than I would like. I want to ask

1:01:19

you this one because I

1:01:22

find this really annoying about cancer when

1:01:25

people are like,

1:01:27

it's like the fight of cancer. Yeah,

1:01:30

you thought it's like when

1:01:33

people get on

1:01:35

the other side of cancer, like you fought so hard.

1:01:39

Does it mean the person that died didn't fight? Yeah.

1:01:42

Why do we do? Why do we do

1:01:45

we win and lose? Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:47

I mean, cancer sucks. Like, let's

1:01:49

put it on cancer. But not on

1:01:52

the people of how hard they fall.

1:01:54

Yes. Right? Yes. And

1:01:56

that's the I think the biggest feeling of

1:01:58

being the one that's sick is

1:02:01

you do go

1:02:04

from that language of feeling

1:02:06

like you're losing the fight to, I

1:02:08

mean, I don't

1:02:10

think I had a stronger feeling than

1:02:12

that I was a loser. Because

1:02:15

I mean, I was something

1:02:18

awful is happening. Not just

1:02:20

to me, something awful has happened to everybody in my

1:02:23

life. My illness is

1:02:25

extremely expensive. I'm ruining

1:02:27

all the children's birthday parties. I

1:02:31

officially nightmare with small talk.

1:02:34

I mean, like, I'm the round

1:02:36

robin of terrible. I

1:02:39

mean, yeah, I, I felt absurd. You

1:02:46

know, so every time

1:02:48

someone's going through something awful, whether it's something

1:02:50

people recognize as sad like cancer or not,

1:02:53

I'm always like, Oh, I know the feeling of

1:02:55

like, I'm the bad thing. And

1:02:57

that's a strong, that's a strong, it's a

1:02:59

lie. But it's a big

1:03:02

feeling to get over or ever

1:03:05

be okay with. Yeah.

1:03:09

I require you

1:03:12

require a lot more you

1:03:14

require help. Was

1:03:16

that hard to be able to

1:03:19

receive? It's horrible. Yeah,

1:03:21

I'm very helpful. I would like to help

1:03:23

you Hannah. I would like

1:03:25

to be helpful. Would not like to

1:03:27

be helped. I like to prove to you that

1:03:29

I am competent and have it together. Please

1:03:32

don't know more than that. Yes. Please

1:03:34

don't see my house. Please also don't ask me

1:03:37

anything right now because I'm not

1:03:39

going to help you. Right? Like,

1:03:41

yeah, I was really good at looking

1:03:43

in vulnerable and cheerful. I wanted to

1:03:45

be like the best person ever. Yeah.

1:03:49

So is that why you wrote? Do you feel

1:03:51

like you wrote the books to be able to

1:03:53

tell the real truth? I was lying. I mean,

1:03:56

honestly, I lied to everybody in my life consistently

1:03:58

because I wanted to be. lovable

1:04:00

again, wanted to be not the sad,

1:04:02

horrible thing. Or make it better. Do

1:04:04

everything you could in your... You

1:04:07

can't change the cancer, but you can change

1:04:09

how you are bearable

1:04:12

with it. Yeah. When my family... When everyone in

1:04:14

my life read my books, they were like, Oh.

1:04:16

And I

1:04:18

was like, well, I've really pulled that off. Yeah.

1:04:25

You wrote a book, I

1:04:27

guess two books through a really hard part

1:04:29

of your life. I feel like I, when

1:04:31

I wrote my book, not

1:04:34

as helpful, but I

1:04:37

think I process. I was

1:04:39

processing for the first time when I wrote my book. And

1:04:41

I think there's a lot of vulnerability in

1:04:44

that, but then it's like looking back.

1:04:46

It's not that I'm

1:04:49

grateful, but

1:04:51

that's where I processed for the

1:04:54

world, for anybody to have,

1:04:58

I guess. And there's an honesty in that

1:05:00

that I think is really great

1:05:02

and why people connect to stories. But

1:05:04

for you, was

1:05:06

there ever a time that you

1:05:09

were like, Oh, did

1:05:11

you write the book, I guess, feeling

1:05:13

clear about how you felt? And

1:05:17

I think that I wasn't fully clear. I

1:05:19

was processing. Do you feel like you

1:05:21

were processing the book? And now that you look

1:05:23

back, you're like, obviously,

1:05:26

there's a lot of good that came from a

1:05:28

lot of people, but felt like,

1:05:30

Oh, maybe not that

1:05:33

I actually kept to myself, but like, yeah,

1:05:37

this was a grand way

1:05:39

to process. That's

1:05:41

how I feel. Yeah, that was a grand way

1:05:43

to process. Write a

1:05:45

book for everyone instead of maybe

1:05:47

just my journal. I'm so sorry that happened.

1:05:55

I was especially like that because with the

1:05:57

first with the first memoir, I really

1:05:59

do. I didn't think, I thought I was

1:06:01

not going to live that long. And so

1:06:04

I did say some things like there was

1:06:06

this guy had this crush on it like,

1:06:08

I don't know, the dawn of time.

1:06:10

And I had this really obsessive paragraph

1:06:12

about how all my journals were like

1:06:14

a record of where he was so

1:06:16

that my diaries could exonerate him or

1:06:18

convict him of a crime. And

1:06:22

then I saw him later. I

1:06:24

was like, Oh, hey, Colin. So

1:06:28

I was about that. Yeah. Sorry

1:06:31

about that. I think you probably know. I

1:06:33

forgot the thing. It was like I just

1:06:35

wrote my little love letter and mailed it. So

1:06:38

there was some moments like that. Yeah.

1:06:47

It's not walking the plank is

1:06:49

sometimes probably as weird as walking.

1:06:51

Yeah. Yeah. But

1:06:54

I think. Yeah.

1:06:58

That's it. Yeah. It's like now

1:07:00

you've said it, you've done it. Then

1:07:03

you realize, Oh, that's kind of scary. But

1:07:05

I think being able

1:07:07

to put out something so honest in

1:07:09

a way that I

1:07:12

hope, I hope allows other people to

1:07:14

feel like they can be like, especially

1:07:17

with your book and like, if

1:07:19

you ask me, I'm okay. Please read

1:07:21

this book. I want to give somebody

1:07:23

who maybe can't find the words for

1:07:25

how they feel in that moment

1:07:28

to be the person that I guess

1:07:31

had the courage in the fear of it

1:07:33

all to say how it actually feels

1:07:35

in this moment. And maybe it changes. Maybe I get

1:07:37

grateful and maybe I'll feel this way. But right now

1:07:39

that's how I feel. I think

1:07:41

there's something really powerful about putting

1:07:44

that into the world. And

1:07:46

then other people being able to like have

1:07:48

that. I think that's what you've

1:07:50

done and like what I've found from I love

1:07:53

your devotion. Good enough because I

1:07:55

haven't run a

1:07:58

lot of devotions and they may. me

1:08:00

feel like I should feel a certain way that

1:08:02

I don't feel. But to be

1:08:04

able to read something that

1:08:07

feels like I feel right

1:08:09

now, but there's still this glimmer of hope.

1:08:12

I think the hope's important. Feels

1:08:15

really nice because it's not asking too

1:08:17

much of me. It's not asking too much

1:08:19

me in the time that really sucks.

1:08:22

And I think that's really special what you

1:08:25

have done and continue to do in your work

1:08:27

and why I'm like so grateful to be able

1:08:30

to have this conversation with you because

1:08:33

you've done great things but you still

1:08:37

don't skip over the parts that people like to

1:08:39

skip over on their

1:08:41

Instagram feed. And that's

1:08:43

really cool. Because apparently I am no longer

1:08:46

incapable. Same. I'm

1:08:48

having the friction of that.

1:08:51

Sometimes I just go thinking

1:08:54

just real life and I think a lot of people

1:08:56

feel like this is like if you're not doing well

1:08:58

that means you should go away during

1:09:00

that time and then come back when

1:09:02

you're good. But

1:09:04

to be able to give the space and

1:09:07

the freedom for people in the community for

1:09:09

people to say I'm not

1:09:11

good but I'm still here. And

1:09:13

this is how I am. I think

1:09:16

it's really cool. There should be

1:09:18

more of that. Well I think I really do think

1:09:20

you're doing a great job with that. You really are.

1:09:22

I'm crying but I'm looking at you.

1:09:24

Authenticity. Yeah. And you have it dear. You

1:09:26

really do. It's so

1:09:28

hard. It's the worst. It's

1:09:31

much less marketable. Last thing.

1:09:35

If there's no cure for being human which...

1:09:38

Shit. Do

1:09:41

you have like any remedies

1:09:43

or some hope for

1:09:45

us that you can give

1:09:47

us? Just anything. Yeah yeah yeah. Oh

1:09:49

great. Totally. Yeah yeah I promise. It's

1:09:51

all wrapped up. Six step plan. The

1:09:55

things I do believe in more than ever I think

1:09:58

I believe in encouraged. I

1:10:00

think life just takes more courage than

1:10:02

I thought it would and that and

1:10:06

When I don't have it then we just borrow it from

1:10:08

other people. So I believe

1:10:11

in courage. I believe in hope I

1:10:13

think that Beautiful

1:10:16

things are in front of us and

1:10:18

it is a story that God's telling us and other

1:10:20

people who love us and so I'm Really

1:10:24

obsessed with hope and I'm

1:10:26

mostly just really believe in I always say like

1:10:28

interdependence But it's just it's just people like I

1:10:30

I believe that we're gonna end up being carried

1:10:32

by other people It's just gonna be really inconvenient

1:10:34

and it won't be on our schedule and most

1:10:37

of those people are not Going

1:10:39

to be the shiny people that we would have

1:10:41

imagined if we could wind them all up and

1:10:43

select them for their duties They're just but we

1:10:45

will be rescued by others. So I

1:10:48

do think it's gonna be okay It's

1:10:51

gonna be okay Mine,

1:10:53

I'd be great. Maybe even better This

1:11:00

is awesome Thank you guys so

1:11:02

much for listening to the episode

1:11:04

better tomorrow is produced by me

1:11:07

Hannah Brown and Legos creative Our

1:11:09

producer is Andrew Stromer our

1:11:11

shows recorded engineered and edited by the

1:11:13

Legos creative team Remember

1:11:16

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1:11:18

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1:11:20

and don't forget to rate review us on

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1:11:26

Brown And you can stay updated on all

1:11:29

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