0:00

The Vibrant Vision of Kunst Painting: A Conversation with John Busick === [00:00:00] [00:00:00] Generational Evolution of a Painting Business --- Scott L: All right, today I'm looking forward to my conversation with John Busick, owner of Kunst Painting in San Rafael, California. John is a fifth generation to own and run Kunst Painting, but as is often the case, has put his own imprint on the company and made it his own. I'm pretty excited to have this conversation. He's a good guy. And I think you're really going to get a lot out of how he runs his business. Thanks again for listening and let's get this episode started. My name is Scott Lollar and I'm a 35 year veteran of the painting industry where I've been part of growing several multimillion dollar painting companies. I have worn all the hats and have experienced everything you have experienced, are experiencing, or will experience. There is lots of chatter about getting to a million dollars, but what very few focus on is what it takes to blast through Death Valley and create the multi million dollar company of your dreams. We don't focus on fads, tricks, or shortcuts. We focus on solid foundational business principles and data that deliver results. This [00:01:00] is the Consulting4Contractors Beyond $1,000,000 Podcast. So John, thanks for being on the podcast. John: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Happy to be here. Scott L: Nice. So as we always start, tell me about the early years. How did you get into painting? John: I really, Scott L: an hour. John: I didn't have a choice. I was born into a painting family. In fact, when growing up, I painted every summer. My first job was my dad would bring home deuces that were used and I had to clean it in the backyard. He paid me 25 cents a bucket. It was my exposure to the painting industry. And ever since then, I'd wanted nothing to do with it until I went off to college, got it, finished school, got a job in the corporate world and realized those buckets aren't so bad. So, came back to the family business and the rest is history. There's a lot more in there, but keep it short. Scott L: Would you study in college? John: Business administration Scott L: You did. Okay. And how long did you [00:02:00] work in the corporate world? John: did it for three years. I had an interesting prior, to that. So I was I went off to run a rafting company in Fiji. I managed 30 local Fijians and spent a good almost 9 months there managing that rafting company. And then came back to. The states met my wife, we were both river guides and then we decided that we were going to settle down and I got a job working for, I went from the raft guide running a rafting company to a suit and tie in downtown San Francisco and I quickly hated that. So I did that for a couple of years and then realized maybe I should join the family business. Scott L: Now, how did you get a job in Fiji as a raft guide? I mean, how did that even happen? John: Good question. I went to Chico State, which I was highly involved with the outdoor program there. I was the president of the outdoor school. Through a few connections, [00:03:00] got hired by international company and they shipped me off. That was part of my internship and to finish school. So, Scott L: Cool. So you were an outdoors type of person, rafting was part of your, what you did in life. And that's how that happened. Very interesting. Did not know. I do have to ask this question. How did your dad feel about you not coming to the family business going to downtown San Francisco in your suit and tie? John: Yeah. I'll give my dad a lot of credit. He is always been supportive of whatever I wanted to do. There was no pressure of like, Hey, you should really come into this. It was always go explore, be what you want to do, whatever you want to do. There's always a spot for here if you ever want it. Scott L: Oh, that's John: So super appreciative of my old man. He was. He was awesome. Scott L: Yeah. how many years ago was this? Silence. John: why I came back to the fan business in [00:04:00] 08 was economy was starting to turn. I approached my father and said, Hey dad, I, I know the economy is not the greatest right now. My wife is six months pregnant and for our first child. And I'm thinking about joining the family business. And he said, well, I'm excited, but you've chosen a hell of a time to come into the painting as industry. Scott L: Oh man, John: but he found a spot for me. Scott L: Yeah. So before we go forward, let's go back. So your father was the fourth generation to run own and run this company. Is that correct? John: So here I'll yes, somewhat. Scott L: or it doesn't have to be quick, but give us the genealogy here. John: Yeah. So. In 1870, in the 1870s, 1880s, my great grandfather immigrated from Germany, which is Kunst, is how you say it. And he moved, [00:05:00] immigrated to New York, started painting rail cars as they moved out west, he would actually paint them. So grainer back then, in the late 1800s. And his two sons started a paint manufacturing company called Kunst Brothers Painting. And they actually manufactured, had a giant warehouse manufacturing plant in downtown San Francisco. They grew that company to have about seven stores across the state of California. Unfortunately, in the 1940s, the main factory burned down. And back then they didn't have insurance, so they pretty much lost everything. My grandfather Kunst is my mom's maiden name. My last name is Busik, but it's my mom's side of the family. So my grandfather, my mom's father, came back from the Korean War and with his twin brother started Kunst Brothers Paint Contracting. And that's what it is to this day. [00:06:00] There is a story in there. I'll, make it quick, but as any family business, Bob, who is his name, Bob Kunst, he started Kunst Brothers, brought his half brother in. They didn't get along, so my grandfather walked out in 1957, started Bob Kunst Painting. Kunst Brothers was run by his half brother, so the two companies co existed since the late 50s up until September this last year where I actually acquired them and brought the name all back under one roof. Scott L: fantastic story. Yeah. Full circle. And you own both now. John: I own both, and it's for the family it's actually a good, it's a great thing. We're all now under one roof, representing one, one whole piece of the family, and I think everyone won in this situation. Scott L: Yeah, beautiful. All right. So when you first joined then what was your role? What did you start doing? Yeah. What was the position your dad found for you? John: [00:07:00] So he said, I know you're a college grad and that sounds great, but you're going to earn the respect. I mean, we, our company has been around a long time. We have a lot of seniority around here, longevity. So I had to earn the respect of all the guys. So I actually was a crew leader for about three years before I went into the office. Scott L: Okay, and then from there, what did you do? What was your first role in the office? John: It was fast paced because unfortunately, our main office manager had a health issue and Overnight couldn't come into work and my father, my uncle were not office people. It was a very kind of lifestyle business back then. Very few systems and they re the system was the office manager. She was the computer. So it was John, get in here. We need to figure this out. So I had to teach myself QuickBooks, teach myself how to basically run a business hands on by the seat of my pants. And, Scott L: Sure. John: that's when I started meeting you folks. Scott L: Yeah, [00:08:00] and so not a lot of technology. I mean, this isn't totally pre technology, but I mean, this is, there's a lot of this happened in 10 years. So this is you're really starting to use then some technology. To run the company that probably before this was. Predominantly paper? John: But only paper, they're doing about a 1, 000, 000 and a half and revenue mostly residential. And at that point, I came in and I realized how heavily we relied on paper pen and paper. I wanted to add some new systems at that point. There are all these little apps coming out little siloed apps. So the story goes, I needed a CRM. So I started dabbling with CRM and then I needed timekeeping and then I needed X, Y, Z to run the business. So fast forward, I started implementing all those things and I realized that, man, I have, I'm in so many different programs. I can't keep my head on straight. So I ended up partnering with a [00:09:00] software developer that I met here. I'm in California, so it's, they're everywhere. And he and I kind of came up with the concept of work glue. Well, back then it was a custom ERP system just for my painting company. And when I went to a back then it was PDCA, a PDCA event. A couple of people asked me what I was using. I showed them a little bit, and I think you were there actually. And kind of raised their hands, said, how do I get my hands on that? And that was when Work Glue was born. Scott L: And how long did it take you to get that to market? John: About three years before we actually got it to market. Scott L: Okay. So that's a good place to go ahead and dig in here a little bit. So, what does Workglue do? And what is it, what's its role and what, who uses it? John: it's 90 percent painting contractors use it. It's basically at the end of the day it's a heavy project management and scheduling system. Basically after you sell the job. Workblue takes over, you schedule [00:10:00] it, you track your employees on it, you do some job costing and we sync with a lot of other programs. That's kind of the nut and bolt of what Workblue is. It's a communication platform for internal use. Scott L: Yeah, you have communication channels things inside of it as well. John: Absolutely. Scott L: Yeah. Nice. All right. So you come in, you're basically sounds like you're doing more operations, internal operations, initially 1. 5 million. Any other roles you've done in the company? John: I've worn all the hats. I've, I estimate project manage. I'm the CFO CEO. Every hat you can think of. Since I've come in, my father is now retired. My uncle's retired and I'm growing my team right now. So I'm in the process of that. We have grown the company too. we're going to do about 4. 5 this year and revenue. We are about 30 percent commercial, [00:11:00] 40 percent or as repaint some small commercial in there to repaint and 30 percent GC new construction. Scott L: Houses as you see houses. John: Houses and some light commercial. Yeah. Scott L: Commercial got it. Okay. So this is if I'm, if my timing's right you're in 2011, 12. You're, I don't know. Actually, it's going to be past that. You did the three years of painting. Now you're in deep with the operations, learning the, learning this system, actually learning the systems, your systems. So you created the systems to run this company. At what point does your father, or do you start talking to your father about taking over the business? John: Pretty quickly when I came in, he it was the plan. But he treated me like a partner from day one when I came in and the office full time and he treated me like a partner. He actually gave me half of the shares right off the bat, just to make me feel like I was a part of it and gave me a voice and, yeah, pretty quickly. And [00:12:00] he exited well. He's fully enjoying retirement at this point. He's still a sounding board for me. In fact, we had dinner last night at my house. He came over for dinner and I got to vent for about 20 minutes to him like we used to always do. It's always, as Scott it's alone, it's lonely at the top. So sometimes you need those people. Scott L: Yeah, exactly. So when did he fully leave? John: He left two years ago. Scott L: Okay. So from the time you came into the operation side and started, learning the systems, creating the systems, um, I would expect that one of the biggest things that you did then was really systematize and put everything in really in the cloud. Probably. That's true. John: Yeah. Yeah. There's certain things that I still think are done better pen and paper. Very few, but yeah, pretty much mostly in the cloud. All of our systems are constantly being revamped or never done. But we do have a lot of SOPs in place at this point. [00:13:00] And as I continue to grow my management team we continue to improve those. Scott L: So just because it helps people understand the growth from that time at $1.5M to today at four or five, has it just been a steady climb all the way through? John: Yes. And no, I mean, through COVID was a big boost shockingly. Um, we were hitting like 2. 83 for a good amount of those years. And then eventually about 2023, 2022, we started really pushing it. So I hit 3. 5, this last year I hit 4, now we're going to hit 4. 5. The ultimate goal is to hit $10 million by 2030, is our ultimate goal. Scott L: Beautiful. All right, so let's talk a little bit about, where do you do your business? Because California, we people that don't live there, we hear all sorts of things. Silicon [00:14:00] Valley. We hear San Francisco, so what is your marketplace? Who are you working with? And where do you doing that work? John: Yeah, good question. We are, if you can imagine the Golden Gate Bridge, San Francisco. Essentially right at when you drive into the city from the Golden Gate it's called Pack Heights from Pack Heights right there all the way north, all the way up to Napa Healdsburg. That's the territory we cover. It's about 40 miles. So not a huge area, but if you've ever been to the Bay Area, the traffic makes it seem like it's a long trek. Scott L: Yeah, okay. Now we also people that don't live there, all we know is the news and then we understand that it's a very expensive place to live. And so is that a challenge for your workforce or how do you find people to work for you? And is that been a challenge or any more of a challenge than anywhere else? [00:14:53] Running a Painting Business --- John: Absolutely. It's always a challenge. Most of our employees commute in. We do have some pockets [00:15:00] of lower income housing in our, in specific areas that some guys live. But most people are commuting in 45 minutes to an hour. To our shop, and that's just unfortunately the way it is. If I had a magic pill, I would solve that. I would certainly pass that around. But it's been a challenge. Yeah. Finding new people just like everyone in the country, with our state of the industry boomers retiring, we're facing the same challenges, but I do think it's exponentially a problem as you have the housing crisis where we're at to. Scott L: Yeah, I would imagine all right. So, so what is you already talked a little bit about your service mix. What is your employee model? Are you all w 2? Do you do some subcontracting? Is it a John: So, we're 100 percent W2. Can't really sub your own trade, your own same license in California legally, So yeah, 100 percent w2 and we do sub some drywall, wallpaper That kind of [00:16:00] stuff Scott L: Yeah. As it came out of my mouth, I realized I'm like, he's in California. He can't sub, and I never have heard it stated so perfectly that you said you can't sub your own trade. I like that helps me because I do have some clients in California and I know that to be true. So glad to hear that. You say that we're on, we're above board. And in California, I, yeah, I get that. It's tough. So tell me a little bit about your organizational chart. What is, what's it look like? What's your management staff look like and how do you manage the painters? John: So I have a full time office manager who helps with the bookkeeping as well. And so my finance side looks like my bookkeeper office manager, and then I have a month end bookkeeper that comes in and does the reconciliation. I like to keep that separate. But I still manage the overall finances. In terms of marketing, I have a part time marketing person that kind of heads that up. I use a third party service as well. And they're kind of my [00:17:00] hybrid marketing team and my part time lady works directly with them to produce content for them in house and then they push it out. And then I have for my sales and estimating, I still estimate quite heavily. I'm still doing about 60, 70 percent of the estimating. I do have another estimator recently hired and his role right now is mostly the repaint market. I have a full time field manager. And he's in charge of scheduling all the crews. And I have a full time shop manager who's in charge of all the vehicles, safety and all the shop. And then I have about 12 crew leaders. And from there we have four other paint positions below them. So we try to create, what we've Koontz Painting Career Path. And they can move up the ladder and finally become a crew leader, which is a pretty senior level in our company. Scott L: Lot of things to unpack there. The part time marketing. So how many, how did that come about? Was it [00:18:00] because someone wanted to only work part time or your, that's what was made sense for your combo with your third party marketing people. John: That grew organically. I was trying to do it myself. Um, a couple other painting contractors use this, uh, Social Jack is his Name. Phenomenal. I'll give him a plug. He's out of New Jersey. I know a few other painting contractors that use him. I was producing. They kept getting on me on our monthly calls of like, John, we need more photos. We need more content. We need stories. We'll happy to produce it all for you, but you got to do it. And I'm like, Hey, guys, I can't do that. I'm too busy. Well, you better figure that out because we can't do these stock images and keep putting that out there. So, A friend of our family, she's been doing marketing and videos and producing content for local real estate agents. And as the market has kind of slowly shifted with the rate changes, she had some more free time come available. So I brought her on about four months [00:19:00] ago. Three months ago, sorry, three months ago. And she's been great. So she's doing roughly 10 to 12 hours a week. She shows up on job sites. I kind of have a schedule for her on a weekly basis. Takes before and afters, writes the stories, does employee spotlights, that kind of stuff. Scott L: Now the 60 to 70 percent of the estimates are done by you. Okay. Everyone's doing the math now, John. This is the way it works. $4.5 million. You're doing it. And so someone's here. Let me just give you the multiple choice. He's lying or he's amazing. Here's mine. You have a very high average job size. So tell us how you're selling 60 to 70 percent of $4.5M. We have to know. John: I work a lot. Number one our average job size is around 24, Scott L: Okay. That helps. John: and, we have a huge network of repeat business, so we've been in business a long time very fortunate in [00:20:00] that aspect. I don't take that for granted. So when I say estimating, a lot of it's order taking, quite frankly, so I can't give myself that much credit, but I still help with the coordination of it all. We still do quite a few a lot of our GC work, those average job sizes are around a hundred thousand. So Scott L: yeah. John: It sounds like a lot, but it's really when you start breaking it down, it's actually not too bad. [00:21:00] Now, I want to just talk a little bit about the acquisition. This is something that's come up more and more in Conversation people have been asking about this and it was a family acquisition, but do you have any feedback for people about that process what you might have learned or, anything that you might advise others if someone comes along saying, Hey, buy my business. Scott L: What are the things that they should be [00:22:00] asking? And these valuations, they go to this business valuation and the numbers sometimes seem to make no sense to me. What would you say, or your feedback since you've gone through the process? John: That's a tough question. Cause every single deal is different, but I'll give you kind of my two cents of what I learned through the process. There's a lot of things. To unpack when you're looking at buying a business, most of it is subjective. Very little is objective when you're buying a painting company, meaning, the assets, right? You're basically buying whatever the assets are in that company with a subjective multiplier that says, Hey, I'm going to throw some value at the name and maybe they have a list of clients. But other than that, you're really buying the vehicles and the equipment that the company has, and that's about it. So in all reality, majority of painting companies, especially the way they're run [00:23:00] in the United States, they aren't worth anything. Scott L: Yeah, I agree with you. John: my total revenue or my net profit or whatever. Your business is worth whatever someone willing to pay for it. And that's the end of the day. That's my take on it. So if you're the only one looking at acquiring a company, and you're the only one looking at it you're in the driver's seat and you're actually the one who's in charge of the multiplier. Now, if you're looking at it and you're, maybe. Maybe you're talking to an owner that has some in house employees that are actually trying to structure a deal to or they have another 3rd party buyer. 1 thing I'm not familiar with as I keep hearing similar to HVAC and electrical that private equity is starting to enter into the market. That's a different multiplier. Those people obviously see the systems and value within that company. So that's probably a different structure, but majority of painting businesses, the mom, pause, [00:24:00] especially in the residential world, are not really worth much. So with that being said, I would throw the 2 cents that I had very good advice from my lawyer. And I'm not giving any legal advice here. I would suggest you to talk to your lawyer about it, but structure the deal with look into structuring a deal. That's an asset purchase only. So that avoids any HR complications. If they otherwise, if you buy the corporation itself, you buy the shares. If you do that, you inherit all warranties and all HR complications that are baggage or whatever you want to call it that comes with it. So, by purchase, asset purchase agreement, you're basically buying all the assets, the name, the website, the phone number, and that's it. Everything else is, employees going to reapply and you limit the warranties in there. So, Scott L: So if I'm on the cusp of a. Work comp claim and I. stay [00:25:00] with the new entity, then your company inherits that injury, even though it occurred previous to you employing me. John: That sounds correct. I mean, I would have to check on that, no, yeah, right. No, but that's basically, I think that's great advice. So, and again, do your own due diligence. John's not telling you how to do it. He's just bringing his own 2 cents. Did your uncle stay on at all? Or was it a, here's the keys and enjoy. Okay. So he's still and has a few specialty clients that he's working with as he passes off to the new estimator that we've hired. But yeah, pretty much. So I, he's not hanging on in terms of, like, some long term buyout. We are, I'm very fortunate my I'm super grateful for my father, my uncle for just bringing me in and kind of handed me the reins and let me kind of do what I wanted and they saw [00:26:00] the future of it and we all benefit. So. Scott L: Yeah. All right. I want to shift gears here a little bit toward to to your team I'm talking about painters. Tell me a little bit about the vibe or the culture, if someone came into your organization what would be some things, what would the, how would they describe your culture and who champions your culture besides you or is it you? John: Culture, wow, that's always on the forefront of my mind. Trying to keep my finger on the pulse of the culture is a constant challenge as a business owner. I will say that, but it's one of the number one things on my plate that I'm always searching to improve. For a long time, I was trying to drive the culture until I realized that I was the wrong person to do that. Don't get me wrong. I'm highly involved in it, but by promoting people from within has really helped shape the culture of our company. And that's exactly why we created that whole Kunst Painting Career Path. We wanted [00:27:00] to promote people from within and give them something beyond the ceiling of a crew leader. So, Miguel my, my field manager has been with us for now 20 years. He started as an 18 year old painter with no experience, an apprentice and fast forward to today he went all the way through the ranks and now he's in charge and I think he kind of drives the culture of our company along with a lot of others. So, we have some long, really long term employees. We have 1 employee that's been with the company for 38 years. He's still a crew leader in the field. He's set to retire in 2025. And I'm just super grateful for him. He's, I've known him since I was a kid. And then there's a lot of other folks that have been with us for 10, 12, 15, 20 years. And then we have a younger crew, not crew, but a younger class that's up and coming. They've been with us from anywhere from two to five years, and they're kind of the [00:28:00] new age of the culture. So it's constantly evolving. And it's also challenging when you have that many people around that have been here for so long, that change is hard no matter what, and when you have that longevity of a crew, it's, change is real hard. Scott L: Yeah. So if I heard you correctly, Miguel is the one that's driving some of the culture or is driving the culture as far as the field employees go. John: Miguel and I together work hand in hand and really drive that. Scott L: And why do you think you've don't know the right word here given him this responsibility or has it just been natural or, you said I you determined you weren't the guy to, to lead this charge or to do this. How did that happen? And was there a specific handoff? Is there a mandate? How does he know he's doing it? Well, you know, how did that work? [00:28:53] Employee Retention and Career Development --- John: Part of it's intentional. Part of it was Miguel saw some areas that we could improve on. [00:29:00] Let me give an example. Something as simple as we provided donuts every Friday in our shop. Guys come to our shop every day. We provide donuts on every Friday. And Miguel realized he said, Hey, John, do you mind if I take that over? I'm like sure, go for it. I don't have to stop and get donuts. He started getting Mexican bread in the morning. And I quickly realized like, I, a little bit out of touch with our own culture for our company and the best thing, so guys were much happier about these all thanked us and thank me for it. And I said, don't thank me. Thank Miguel. I mean, he's the one who did it, you know, simple things like that. Matter, that's what I've learned and I feel like if I get in the way and I think that's such a small but perfect example of I get in the way a lot in our company. I still need to get my finger on the pulse, but I feel like I get in the way both in the office and in the field. So I'm trying to find new ways and that's just one of [00:30:00] them. And Miguel's really the driving force out there. Scott L: excellent. So let's talk a little bit about the career path. When did that get developed? Was it hard to develop? And who runs that? John: So Bill Curtindale, he's been around the painting industry a while. He did a presentation at a commercial forum and PCA a while back on the career path that he kind of put together for a company he worked for. And I completely stole it from him, quite honestly. I really liked. How he created this whole momentum versus instead of most companies are I'm going to I'm a field painter. I'm a crew leader or foreman. I mean, that's it. Well, there's so many different things along the way to learn and so many different ways to earn more money and skill and everything. So we kind of really broke that into 5 different field positions. And Bill helped me do that. So kudos to Bill. Thank you. So we kind of made it our own though. So we've kind of done that. We retrained our [00:31:00] current staff with it, gave them all new titles and money, and there's performance bonus applied to all of those positions. That said, so any new employee that comes in, they meet with myself and Miguel in our conference room that there's a giant poster there and we explain each position and kind of talk through how you can move up in the company and kind of a career path of what they're looking for. So, so we kind of really drive it home when they get started. We re talk about it when we do their biannual and annual review and are always. Addressing them with their title. So just a reminder with them of like, Hey man, as a painter one, you're doing really well right now, blah, blah, blah. So just kind of reinforcing it. Is it perfect? No, it needs work. But for the most part, it's been a big game changer for our company. Scott L: And then, are you, is this dynamic? In other words, are you training in house? Are you helping people get to the next level? Or how do they, what's the plan? Or how do they know what the plan is? So [00:32:00] each, each level has 10 to 15, uh, hard skills associated to it from masking to sanding,cutting in with a brush to spraying or whatever. And then there's,as you move up and you become a lead painter, a crew leader there's additional skills that are, that are soft skills that are leadership skills that, um, to John: There's also two tests you have to take in our company to move up to the next level. So once you become a painter one, to get to painter two, you have to take a test. You have to have a grip inspection. That's an old school term right there, Scott. Grip Scott L: is. I know what it is. It's funny. It's funny. It's funny. John: We call it a grip inspection. So you have your toolbox and we do an inspection. They have to label or repeat in English every single tool that they have and know what they are. So yes, all in house to get checked off to the next level. That's a big part of Miguel's job and other crew leaders that they're kind of working under. That's part of their job as a crew leader is to check people off. Scott L: Yeah, [00:33:00] I love it. So why do you think people? work for your company, stay at your company, what are some of the things that if I asked them, they would say, what, what are the superpowers? Hey, this company does this, that, and the other, what are the things that, that you, that they've experienced with your company that have kept them around 38 years? John: It's certainly not me. I think it's each other, the guys in the field, like they are not best of friends, but all everyone gets along like we have a pretty good shop. I will say that. And that's a big piece to it. Of course we have great benefit, like we have this other stuff that helps contribute to that. We have 401k, we have performance bonuses, we pay a great hourly rate, we provide trucks, we provide gas, cars, company clothing, there's a lot of other stuff. We do [00:34:00] a whitewater rafting trip, team building stuff, and there's all these other perks. But at the end of the day, I think what it is is each other. It's like a sports team I kind of relate it to. That we're trying to Put the best lineup together, but at the end of the day, they're the ones who really control the culture of that and I feel like if we can throw gasoline on the right things, that they are the ones who really make that I think that's why they stick around. Scott L: Yeah. [00:34:30] Contractor Growth and Team Building --- Scott L: Now you just mentioned white water rafting, you, is it? Do you guys have some kind of event or a weekend or something that you do with your team? I think that's your company, isn't it? John: Yeah. So I'm, again, going back to my water rafting days I, know there, In Sacramento, kind of northern Sacramento on the American River. I take the guys, everyone who wants to come, fully paid. I take them whitewater rafting and camping for a whole weekend. And we do some team bonding stuff and just have fun. And we [00:35:00] do it, we're going on our fourth year this year. everyone's invited that works on the company. Scott L: participation. John: About 80%. Scott L: That's nice. That's awesome. Now, is it fair to say that you have a lot of Latinos in your workforce there? John: Yeah, we are 99 percent Latino. Scott L: Yeah. Okay. John: the field, Scott L: Any challenges with that or you met you, I think your example was beautiful, which is, I mean, you're buying doughnuts. You thought you were a good guy, but actually there was another step, which is why don't we buy the quote unquote doughnut that this group would prefer, right? Which was the bread. I was, when you were starting to say it, I'm thinking, Oh, it's breakfast burritos. Because I, I have someone in Texas that that's what they do, breakfast burritos. But, so, any challenges that you think unique or anything that you've done, to work with this group a little better? John: Majority of what we have is done in English and Spanish. To get to a certain level in our company, you have to speak [00:36:00] English. But that being said I do foster. Even if you're non English speaking as an apprentice painter one, that's not a problem. We help try to move you up and encourage in any way possible for you to get, keep moving up in the company. Yes, it poses challenges. I mean, there's the communication aspect is challenging. There's cultural differences. We have people from El Salvador. We have Guatemalans, Mexicans. and there's little nuances within that. So, just being aware of it has been my biggest takeaway and it's okay to say I don't understand and I don't know, I don't know the answer. So we've tried certain things as a management team and ask, starting to ask more questions like, Hey, is that important to you? To some of our main guys. So. Scott L: Yeah. Tell me what your superpower is like. What is the one or two things that you bring to your company that if you went away or couldn't do it, it would be pretty crippling or crushing or [00:37:00] whatever you want to say like what is it that you know that really you bring that no one else brings? John: Number one is I think it's my ability to sell. I can sell paint jobs. The other one is financial. I have a great, a really good grasp on our finances. Budget investments, all the above. So those are my two greatest strengths. My, my couple of my biggest weaknesses that I'm well aware of is my, Scott L: Me wanting to wear too many hats, um, is a huge challenge. me again,getting in the way is a big problem, and a little bit of my ego is a problem. Um, just because. Me. John: I think anyone that sits at the top of the company, ego is always a fine line. There has to be some sort of ego there to really move the needle, [00:38:00] but at the same time, keep it in check. So, I'm always trying to figure that one out. It's never. Perfect. You know what I mean? Scott L: Yeah, interesting. You say that because I wouldn't call you egotistical. I wouldn't think of you that way. And yes, I, you're right. There's gotta be, you gotta be a little bit of that just to be a company owner, period. But I do, I, you, you mask it pretty well. I find you to be pretty humble guy. So interesting to hear you say that. As you've talked to us about actually your org charts, not crazy, it's fairly lean. It feels like to me and you're talking about. doubling or so to from four or five to 10 million. What are some key things that position wise I'm talking about org chart that you think you're going to need to add and cultivate over the next I can't remember, you said 2030? Over the next, six years, what are some of those things that are on your radar to, to work on? John: Really good question. And that's definitely part of the roadmap, right? Key hires. So the next 2 key [00:39:00] hires is another estimator salesperson and an assistant field manager with Miguel. Beyond that will become probably an operations vice president of operations at that point. A big part of our, I should mention this, that a big part of our sales process is actually doing the work operationally we're really dialed, so we can't slip on that because I think that's what generates more revenue for our company. So putting the key people in that position, those positions operationally is a key move prior to really pushing on the marketing gas, get that right before going to the marketing well. Another one would be the, because we're a W2 model would be a full time recruiter and onboarding person. Scott L: Staffing the field is going to be probably one of your biggest challenges as everyone, because the workforce is not increasing. Apparently, John: Yeah, 100%. So, the, and then beyond that, I think we could get our [00:40:00] current location here in San Rafael. We kind of serve Marin County here. Don't head North very much, but there's plenty of work up there that, eventually I think we can get currently here about 6 million in revenue in our current market. And then we'd probably have to open a silo location, kind of a remote location up North and Santa Rosa Healdsburg that would be, producing three to four. Scott L: Yeah, I love that. I love that. That expansion type of thing. All right. Great conversation. I've enjoyed this. Before I let you go if you had a chance to give some advice to an emerging contractor, a younger version of yourself, or someone that's listening to this and got their eyes big because those are big numbers you're talking about. What are some things that you would say to that person as they are fighting the fight that is in your rearview mirror, but they're very much in, in it? What, what are some of the things you might encourage them with? John: Well, first off, Scott, I [00:41:00] don't think it's in my rear view mirror. It's no matter what state, what stage you're at. It's always there. [00:41:05] Advice for Up and Coming Paint Contractors --- John: Advice well, I'll repeat what my grandfather told me when I was a kid coming into the business, never take on a job. That'll put you under a single job. Always take care of your people, because at the end of the day, they are your company. We sell painting. Robots are not painting yet, so take care of your people. the last one is, the burnout factor has been ups and downs for me. The challenge of just, again, wearing all those hats and especially I think as you're trying to break a million or you're just over a million in revenue, you're still not large enough to have a huge team or anything is to really find time to get away and turn it off if you can, even if it's for a few hours, go for a walk, go for a hike. I think that's probably the most healthy thing that you can do mentally to keep your, keep it long [00:42:00] term in the game. Otherwise I think you burn out. And the candle dwindles and you pull the plug and hire a coach, hire a coach. Scott L: There you go. Unfiltered plug there. Yeah, I love it. Well, this has been a great conversation. I reached out to you because I knew this is what we, what I'd hear. And you really hit it out of the park. So, I think you brought a lot of wisdom. John's a great guy. And uh, in spite of what he said he's got a lot of humility. Check out Workglue. a great tool. It's a good fit for a lot of people. So go ahead and we'll put that in the show notes. And John, I appreciate your time. Really I'm glad to have known you through the years. And I think you've really brought some great wisdom to people that listen to this. So thank you. John: Scott. Always a pleasure. Thanks for having me. And I hope to see you soon. [00:43:00]