0:11

I think the power of design is always

0:13

to make meaningful differences for

0:15

people . And

0:18

yeah , where are we heading with design

0:20

? I think it's the most difficult question to answer , but

0:22

you do see a lot of things

0:24

happening . So you see that there is

0:26

more focus

0:29

on health . There is , I

0:31

think , a lot of focus

0:33

on inclusivity and

0:36

diversity , which I really

0:38

think is a good thing . I

0:40

think we are mindful of generation

0:43

changes , so you see

0:45

that the characteristics of different

0:47

generations , they

0:50

demand for different solutions , but

0:54

also things like mixed reality

0:56

. So how does

0:58

the digital work world and

1:01

the physical world come together ? I think all of

1:03

these things are shaping , let's

1:06

say , the future of materials .

1:20

All right , hi there , welcome

1:23

to a brand new episode of Beyond Interior

1:26

Design . Thank you for being here . I'm

1:28

Marc Müskens , your host , and together

1:30

with Sven van Buuren , we are the proud founders

1:32

of the Beyond Interior Design Club

1:35

, and this is where we

1:37

provide interior designers with the tools

1:39

and training they need to take

1:41

their businesses to new heights . If

1:43

you're curious , go to beyondtheterrordesignclub

1:47

. Well listen

1:49

, interior design is

1:52

a constantly evolving field

1:54

that requires innovation , provides ideas

1:56

and new perspectives , and

1:58

we believe that designers possess a unique

2:01

ability to create spaces that

2:03

leave lasting impact on people's

2:05

life , and that's why

2:07

we're so committed to helping

2:09

interior design entrepreneurs to tap into

2:11

this potential . Based on

2:14

our core philosophy form follows

2:16

meaning . So

2:18

when I spoke to our inspirational

2:21

guests of today for the very first

2:23

time , I knew he should be in the Beyond

2:25

Interio r Design podcast . His vision

2:27

, his perspective on the design and

2:29

architecture world is beyond

2:32

. He's head of design creative

2:34

director at Collier's Amsterdam

2:36

is a research driven

2:38

designer from urban planning to real

2:40

estate and from architecture to interior

2:42

design , and today is here to inspire

2:44

us on how to add more meaning

2:47

, more relevance , to our

2:49

designs , to create real impact . So

2:51

please welcome Geoffrey

2:54

Timmer .

2:56

Thanks , Marc . Thanks for the introduction , and

2:58

well nice to be here .

3:00

Yeah , Thank you . Thanks for your

3:02

time . Well

3:04

, we're going to talk about participation

3:07

, relevance in design research , the

3:09

culture of architect and design firms

3:12

. So we have a lot of topics today

3:14

, but let's start

3:16

. I read an article about

3:18

you , a post on LinkedIn

3:20

. I can't remember where it was really

3:22

, but you said I love

3:24

to make real architecture

3:27

. What is that real architecture

3:29

?

3:32

Difficult question to answer . Obviously , and

3:37

to be honest , I cannot be the judge

3:39

of what is real architecture and what isn't

3:41

. But what

3:44

I would like to recommend , and basically

3:47

I would like to recommend all of your listeners , is to

3:50

listen either to the audio book or

3:52

to read the book

3:55

of Rick Rubin which

3:58

is called the Creative Act , A Way

4:00

of being , and I think he addresses

4:02

a couple of things about architecture and about

4:04

art in general quite good

4:08

, I would say . And

4:10

one of the things he basically says

4:12

is the importance of awareness

4:15

, so being really

4:17

aware of what you're feeling and what

4:19

you're seeing and what you're hearing and these kind

4:22

of things , without drawing immediate

4:24

conclusions . And I think really

4:28

experiencing art of architecture

4:31

is really about being aware

4:33

and feeling if things fit

4:35

or click or real

4:38

or feel real , and it's really a personal

4:40

feeling . I would say there's no

4:43

real judge to it .

4:44

I would say it's about feeling

4:46

, it's about experience instead of aesthetics

4:49

. Definitely yeah . So

4:51

the aesthetics , the design

4:53

, is a kind of means to the experience

4:55

.

4:57

Well , aesthetics is always obviously

5:00

important and it's

5:02

the first thing people see , but I

5:05

would say it's a little bit like

5:08

these records . So you have these

5:10

incredible records which , the first

5:12

time you hear them , you're immediately

5:15

blown away . But sometimes , let's

5:17

say , this feeling

5:19

doesn't last . And there are these records

5:21

which take a little bit more time to get

5:23

adjusted to or to get acquainted to

5:26

, but ultimately they end

5:28

up being this masterpiece . Or you hear things

5:30

which have never heard before and that

5:32

I think could also work for

5:34

architecture .

5:35

Yeah , it sounds to me like sometimes it's

5:38

with a song here it's the first time you're like

5:40

, well , maybe there's something good

5:42

in it , and after a few times

5:44

you're like , wow , exactly

5:47

.

5:48

Also visit places more often and on different

5:51

days of the week and different moments

5:53

in time . It will change

5:55

your feeling and it will change

5:57

your mind about it .

5:59

Yeah Well , right now we live in

6:01

an image-driven

6:03

world , right ? What's

6:05

your opinion about that in our profession , in architecture

6:08

, in design , in terry design ?

6:10

Yeah , I'm not so sure . If we live on

6:12

an image-driven world , I think

6:14

. I think what fascinates me more than

6:18

the image-driven , let's say

6:21

, mindset , is the

6:23

way how human behavior works

6:25

actually , and what I'm

6:29

constantly fascinated about how

6:33

humans interact , what they do , but

6:35

also new ways of thinking new

6:38

generations introduce , and

6:40

this is also , I think , understanding

6:44

this is for

6:46

me crucial , because

6:49

that's for me also the only

6:51

way to make meaningful things

6:54

, to really try to

6:56

understand the dynamics of human behavior

6:58

. So also try to understand why

7:00

this

7:02

, let's say , this image revolution

7:05

is so important for people and why

7:09

they are captured by it and why they are driven

7:11

by it . That's

7:14

for me , I think that's

7:16

for me the essence .

7:18

So you start with the human being , with the

7:20

persons , with the users , with humanity

7:22

.

7:23

Always so for me , that's always

7:25

the starting point , and

7:27

I also believe that I work

7:29

in an organization which is a global organization

7:31

, a global real estate organization , but

7:34

still I think it has this

7:36

people-first mentality

7:39

and for me that's crucial . So

7:41

it's architecture

7:43

and interior projects are

7:45

always about people and about

7:47

human interaction and about how

7:51

people come together and why they would

7:55

like to spend time there . So

7:57

that's always the background of everything we

7:59

do .

8:00

Yeah . So when I relate that to inspiration

8:03

because some designers will tell

8:05

you I have a lack of inspiration

8:07

yeah , what

8:10

is happening at that moment when you lack inspiration

8:13

? They look

8:15

for beautiful pictures , they look for

8:17

some themes or concepts , but

8:20

where's the real inspiration ? If I hear your story

8:23

, I might know your

8:25

answer . But how do you get more inspiration

8:27

?

8:28

Well , it's everywhere and there's no fixed rule

8:30

to it . So you can hear it a

8:32

little bit in my voice that I loved

8:34

my voice last week for all post-a-week

8:37

. And what was really

8:39

nice was that , due

8:43

to the fact that I could not talk and I could

8:45

not have , let's say , zoom meetings

8:47

or calls whatever , a lot of my meetings

8:49

were cancelled . That meant actually that

8:51

within my working

8:54

day , I got more time actually to

8:57

think rather than to speak , because

8:59

I think the agendas

9:01

are overloading for

9:04

everyone . But

9:06

what happened at that moment was

9:08

because I

9:10

was not under so much pressure during

9:13

the day , I

9:16

started to see things differently

9:18

again . I started to look at

9:20

another way , at series

9:22

, at movies , while reading

9:24

books . So sometimes inspiration

9:26

, or finding inspiration , is also , in

9:30

a way , to get detached from the things

9:32

you were always doing . Another

9:34

thing is that I

9:37

recently visited one

9:41

of the museums in Tilburg which is

9:43

called the Textile Museum , and I would

9:45

recommend everyone to go there . When you have

9:48

a writer's block or when you're out of creativity

9:50

, please go there , because what

9:53

happens there is amazing . When

9:58

you walk into the Knowledge Center there for

10:00

Textiles , you can

10:02

see that there is a research lab there where

10:05

you can really actively engage

10:07

with people , with artists who are working

10:10

with complex techniques of

10:12

textiles . It's from tufting

10:14

to laser cutting , whatever thing you

10:16

can and what you can see there is

10:19

that people are really obsessed

10:21

in what they're doing , they really want

10:23

to understand it and in

10:25

a way , when you get into that mindset

10:27

again , you also

10:32

plug into a different type of creativity

10:34

again . So there are all sorts

10:36

of ways , but also go into nature , walk

10:39

outside , and that's

10:41

also something which a lot of

10:43

people also relate

10:46

to . Nowadays . Nature is such an

10:49

important and inspiring source

10:51

of creativity . It

10:53

always changes , it's never the

10:55

same , so that's wonderful .

10:59

Yeah , sounds good . What I thought

11:01

with the inspiration part is that if

11:03

you take the human , human-centered

11:05

design , you

11:08

can get a lot of inspiration from them

11:10

, from humanity , from humans . So

11:13

most of the time , if I look at our interior

11:15

design firm , we

11:17

are obsessive about

11:20

knowing them , feeling them

11:22

. We want to be our

11:24

clients . We even

11:26

do that , actually , for a couple of days with them

11:29

. So we stay in their home sometimes we

11:31

are even asleep at

11:33

their place to see how they brush their teeth

11:35

, how they use the kitchen , how the kids

11:37

come from school . You

11:40

are going to be them . So

11:42

first of all , you see the problems or

11:44

frustrations so you can

11:46

solve it , and on the other hand

11:48

, you're just like , hey , they're enjoying really that

11:51

moment . There's the real experience going

11:53

on . Then they get out of this

11:55

moment . They break patterns . That's

11:57

what you tell about finding inspiration

12:00

. Last week you broke a pattern

12:02

. I think that's

12:04

really , really powerful because you use your

12:06

time in a different way . You

12:09

saw the world differently . You could not

12:11

use all your senses . Literally you

12:13

were not allowed to speak . Almost . Yeah

12:17

sounds great . Yeah , what

12:19

is it ? Well , actually

12:21

you told me that in the

12:23

first meeting we had that

12:25

there is a real big danger of

12:27

the design Most well

12:30

I wouldn't say most designers

12:32

do architects , but we jumped

12:35

too quickly into conclusions

12:37

. What about that ? Because

12:39

, yeah , I want to know more about it .

12:42

Yeah , so when

12:47

you work in a commercial business and

12:49

obviously also

12:52

architecture and interior architecture

12:54

is restricted to

12:58

strict timelines and deadlines you

13:01

tend to be concerned

13:04

about making it in time . What

13:08

I see often is that , for instance

13:10

, a research part has been kept to

13:12

one day or two days in order to make

13:14

sure that you reach

13:16

those deadlines . But the

13:18

unfortunate thing and also the fortunate thing

13:20

about creativity is that you cannot capture

13:23

it in time , so sometimes

13:25

it simply takes a little bit more

13:27

time . What

13:30

I really like about the way how we are

13:32

organized at Colliers

13:34

and how we work together with the different departments

13:36

is that we understand

13:38

this part of creativity

13:40

and we try to

13:42

make the constraints

13:45

of projects in such a way that

13:47

we maximize

13:50

time for creativity . And

13:53

I really like that , because that means

13:55

that maybe you need to do your procurement

13:57

procedure slightly different or

14:00

you need to organize , let's

14:02

say , your meetings slightly different , but

14:05

it does result in quality research

14:07

time or quality creativity time

14:09

, which you can really ultimately

14:12

see at the end product . So

14:18

that's , I think , what is important here

14:20

.

14:20

Yeah , so you're literally designing the

14:22

whole process that you're doing with

14:24

, designing the freedom and

14:27

the time blocks that you can have this extra

14:29

time actually for

14:31

going into this maybe obsessive

14:33

research or obsessive whatever

14:36

, to feel it really

14:38

to get into the veins of the

14:40

problem or whatever . You are literally

14:42

designing that upfront to make sure that

14:45

you can have this experience

14:48

for your own creativity .

14:49

Yeah , in a way as an architect or

14:51

as an interior designer , you also need to be

14:53

, let's say , a process designer . Because

14:57

in a way , you're creating

15:01

your own freedom or you're creating your own

15:03

path to success . So

15:05

it's really understanding how

15:08

you can be your

15:10

best for your client is also by designing

15:12

the way towards your end

15:15

product .

15:16

Yeah , wonderful .

15:17

I strongly believe in that .

15:19

Yeah , we call it . Sometimes you

15:21

have to design your interiors , your architecture

15:23

projects , but did

15:25

you design your own business and with business

15:28

we mean the whole process around

15:30

to enjoy

15:32

your creativity , to design

15:35

your freedom of creativity , to

15:37

design your financial freedom . That's

15:39

also part of it , because then you

15:41

are talking about time . Financial

15:43

freedom and time are really connected , and

15:46

that's why you don't want to have this pressure

15:48

on your creativity when

15:52

you're designing , let's

15:54

say , your process .

15:55

you're also designing your behaviors and

15:59

what I really also as

16:01

a recommendation and I think everyone almost

16:03

read it by now but this Atomic

16:06

Habits book , I

16:08

think , is a great way of

16:10

understanding how relevant

16:12

process is to

16:15

create , let's say , new habits

16:17

in your design philosophy . I

16:20

think that's a great source of inspiration . I would

16:22

say Atomic Habits .

16:24

Yeah , habits , all right . Yeah , we

16:26

will create . When people

16:29

well , you're listening not

16:31

for the first time to this podcast you know we are creating

16:33

landing pages with our guests , so

16:35

this one will be instituteofinterdesign . com/geoffrey ,

16:39

and we will put out there some resources

16:42

that we mentioned in this live podcast

16:45

, so no worries . When you did

16:47

the guidance , well

16:49

, yeah , talking about habits , yeah

16:51

, and you said , yeah

16:53

, designing your own habits , because

16:57

why you want to do that ? What's

17:00

what's ?

17:03

Well , you want to do that because , in

17:07

a way , it

17:09

helps you to feel comfortable with

17:11

your design process . And

17:14

there are a couple

17:16

of these habits which we try

17:18

to also adapt in our studio . For

17:20

instance , one is about

17:23

research . So don't limit

17:25

research to only one person . We

17:29

have a diverse team and we

17:32

deliberately also try to create

17:34

a mix of different backgrounds

17:37

, nationalities , genders , because

17:39

everyone looks at challenges differently

17:41

. And I think

17:43

also Rick Rubin again

17:45

a great source of inspiration , and

17:48

I really feel that Rick

17:50

created this book , which is kind of like

17:52

the follow-up of that

17:58

book , the Artist Way , which

18:00

was read by everyone back

18:03

in the days when they got stuck into creativity

18:05

. But

18:10

I think he really puts it really nice

18:12

that he says the

18:14

information that reaches us is

18:16

being filtered by each and

18:19

everyone in a unique way . And

18:23

when you're doing research and when

18:25

you're doing that together with a couple of people

18:28

, you see that you

18:30

create different perspectives

18:33

, different views on solving

18:35

that problem

18:38

because , simply , everyone

18:40

filters the information in a unique way

18:42

and you

18:44

learn to focus on the information that is

18:46

essential for you . So

18:49

those are these typical

18:52

behavioral things which

18:55

create

18:57

also , in a way , studio culture .

18:59

Yeah , so if you talk about

19:01

the Danish weekend jumping to quickly

19:04

into conclusions there can be , if you

19:06

have one researcher , you're the only

19:08

one with your own perspective Exactly . You

19:10

can have a wrong perspective of what's

19:13

really going on or you don't see the next

19:15

level of your designs .

19:17

Yeah , and everyone

19:19

had this moment when they thought after

19:21

an hour of research or a day of research . Well

19:23

, I know it exactly right now and

19:25

I have the exact definition of

19:27

it . But then the danger

19:29

of that is that ultimately

19:31

it has a lot of assumptions and

19:34

you get narrow minded by

19:36

it , so you create this tunnel

19:38

vision where you cannot step out anymore

19:40

of this thinking , and this is , I

19:43

think this is killing .

19:45

How do you know your design is not based

19:47

on assumptions ? When we

19:50

talk about residential design , you can just check

19:52

in with your clients . You say is it

19:54

really true , do I see this right ? Or

19:56

is it correct that you

19:59

can check it and if they're not sure about it you

20:01

can take some extra time to filter

20:03

it ? If it's really right what you see ?

20:05

But how ?

20:05

do you do it when you are working on ? Well

20:08

, you have big scale projects . How

20:11

do you make sure you're on the right path ?

20:14

I'm not sure if it's that different . So

20:16

, in a way , when

20:18

we work for organizations , we try to learn

20:20

as much as we can . Obviously

20:23

, learning also goes by listening

20:25

to people , but

20:27

ultimately you need to register , or

20:29

you need after , I

20:32

would say , getting

20:34

all this information , you

20:37

will start your analysis , and not too

20:39

early , but you will start it and

20:41

this analyzes . You will always present this to

20:43

your clients , so you will show them . This

20:46

is what we have learned , this is how we understand you

20:48

, this is how we think your

20:51

organization functions , and sometimes

20:55

for them it's kind of like a check

20:57

in the box . Yeah , indeed , it's correct . Sometimes

21:00

it's an eye-opener and

21:02

sometimes you're not right . It's

21:05

also testing by explaining

21:08

it to people , by opening up .

21:11

Yeah , great . Yeah , your team grew

21:13

from 2 to 22

21:15

people right now . Yeah

21:20

, with all gender , age , nationalities

21:23

. Like you said , you are

21:25

the team leader ahead of design , so

21:27

you are a person who wants to get out everything

21:30

from your head , from your people , so

21:32

you're thriving on teamwork , but

21:35

there's a really multidisciplinary approach

21:38

. What your advice to small offices

21:40

or just design duos or maybe single designers

21:42

? How can you deal with this ? Because

21:45

it's all about we want to

21:47

make our designs more relevant , right , like

21:49

we call it . Beyond interior design , beyond

21:52

design , beyond architecture , you

21:54

want to touch another level

21:56

that is not about the aesthetics , but

21:58

the kind of importance

22:00

you want to attach some extra meaning

22:03

. How can you get there when you are just

22:05

a small company or designer

22:08

duo ?

22:09

I would say , be open to collaboration . So

22:12

we have done a lot of pitches

22:14

where we also

22:16

collaborated with a lot of parties , simply

22:20

because of the fact that we love

22:22

to collaborate . Because when you

22:24

collaborate you start to learn other perspectives

22:27

, you insert

22:29

, let's say , expertise from

22:31

others , you learn from others

22:33

. So I think

22:35

also collaboration is part

22:38

of a learning environment

22:40

journey is to

22:42

keep developing yourself and

22:44

, yeah , sometimes

22:48

you need to step aside of your own ego to

22:51

collaborate on projects , to share

22:55

profit in a way as well , but

22:57

that's OK .

22:59

Yeah , well , you mentioned the word ego

23:01

. Let's go deeper

23:03

into that , because there

23:06

is some straight things going on about

23:08

authenticity , your own inner

23:10

. How do you say feeling

23:13

as a designer , how you see the world , your

23:15

kind of ideology ? How

23:18

do you deal with that , even in teams ? Because then

23:20

you have somebody who has an idea , the other one

23:22

has an idea . You

23:25

don't want to compromise , you want to go

23:27

to the other level . How

23:30

do you deal with that ? Because you're on top of

23:32

the group ? Well

23:34

, not on top , maybe you're in the middle .

23:37

Yeah . So to

23:39

be honest , it doesn't feel like that . So

23:41

I think we have autonomous teams

23:43

who

23:47

really drive their own creative process , and

23:49

I strongly believe in that , because there's

23:52

no one who has the right answer in architecture

23:55

, in art or in interior design

23:57

. So I think it's more about

23:59

understanding , let's say

24:01

, storylines , understanding principles

24:04

, understanding concepts , rather than

24:06

saying this is the right answer . So

24:09

that means also that the power

24:11

is , I would say , within the design

24:13

teams and within the groups

24:16

who are working for these clients , and obviously

24:18

I would

24:20

like to participate in conversations

24:23

and I would like to give

24:25

my opinion or

24:27

give my view on it . But

24:31

I also don't have the right answers . So

24:34

it's really about , I

24:36

would say , empowering teams , making sure

24:38

they feel safe , they feel secure

24:40

, they feel , let's

24:43

say , open and welcomed

24:45

to share their ideas , to share their vision

24:47

. And we shouldn't forget

24:49

that design

24:51

projects are also the most vulnerable

24:54

moments in the times

24:57

for those , for young designers . So

24:59

they need to be extremely vulnerable to

25:01

show their great insights

25:04

and their great work . And when

25:06

you would work , then in

25:09

a way that you kill

25:11

those ideas based on your own . I

25:14

would say that's

25:16

. I would say it's

25:18

not the way I would like to work .

25:20

No , most of the time . Now I see it

25:22

because I'm well , I'm

25:25

almost 20 years

25:27

graduated after this , so

25:29

15 year in business . So I

25:31

do see graduation shows where designers

25:34

have this kind of rebellious view

25:37

on the world and I love that so much

25:39

because all the rest is kind

25:41

of boring or in the flow of

25:43

you know , it's like , ok , yeah , good

25:45

design , but it's not

25:47

changing my life of the world . You

25:50

have this rebellious design most

25:52

of the time . They have . Well

25:55

, it's not easy for them to get a job because

25:57

they don't fit in really well , but

26:02

there is a possibility that their

26:04

dreams are slowly dying

26:06

and the rebelliousness is slowly

26:08

dying because they just want to fit

26:10

in somewhere to earn money . So

26:14

this is yeah , I found

26:16

this really . I had an

26:18

internship and I really felt

26:21

the freedom to say whatever I liked

26:23

and it was cool . They built in a moment

26:25

in the design process that everybody could say it's

26:27

worth , and I yes , you need to be

26:29

very vulnerable because it was like , hey , you're

26:32

a company existing for a few

26:34

years and who am I Just graduated

26:36

, or not even graduated , and

26:38

you are an internship , and you're like , ok , this is just

26:41

my opinion , and

26:44

then if they take you serious , if it feels safe

26:46

, they will . All

26:48

the experienced people will take it immediately to the next

26:51

level . And then there's really

26:53

cool stuff happening , because you're like , yes

26:56

, that's what I mean , and they take it to

26:58

new heights . So , yeah

27:00

, I can fully imagine that when you work in teams like

27:02

that , if everybody feels

27:04

like that , you can do

27:06

incredible stuff with

27:09

design .

27:10

And what you said about being rebellious . I

27:14

connect that also to that

27:16

research part . So I

27:18

see the strong connection with research , because one

27:20

and maybe

27:22

you should also listen a

27:24

lot to , for instance , people like

27:26

Rutger Bergmann or something like that because

27:29

what they

27:32

do in creating

27:34

these new disruptive ideas

27:37

is that they are obsessive about what

27:39

they do . And this is

27:41

what I really like about people , because they

27:43

have this relentless

27:46

commitment to

27:49

what they are doing . And that's constantly what

27:51

I see , also at Dutch

27:53

design weeks or whenever

27:56

you see people

27:58

really

28:01

into

28:03

and going mental on these subjects

28:05

.

28:06

I really love that . Yeah , go even

28:08

play . That's the right words . Yeah , it

28:10

is .

28:11

And when you create this space or create

28:13

this environment where people feel that

28:15

they can really own this subject

28:18

and try to go as far as they can

28:20

in these subjects , then they

28:22

will also flourish and they will

28:24

also feel seen and feel

28:27

part

28:29

of the team .

28:31

Yeah , and most of the time when I came

28:33

up with a wonderful idea , everybody was like yeah

28:36

, just keep going when it's wonderful , but

28:38

only when it's wrong or bad or horrible

28:41

or ugly design . Then there was a kind of discussion

28:43

how

28:45

does it go in your firm ? What

28:48

are the biggest discussions on design ? When

28:51

it's beautiful or when it's ugly or ugly

28:53

? Well , don't mention it , I don't want to call it

28:55

ugly , but

28:58

it doesn't feel right . It's

29:00

almost like yeah exactly .

29:02

So I hope that the discussion will never

29:05

be about beautiful or ugly

29:07

. So it should be really about

29:09

did

29:12

we address the problem correctly ? Is

29:15

it really clear

29:17

what we are solving for the organization

29:19

? Do we

29:21

really think , or do we

29:24

really feel that we

29:26

have answered to

29:28

the needs and to the requirements of the clients

29:30

? So that should be the

29:33

aim for discussion , and

29:35

I think things like

29:37

beautiful or ugly are so subjective that

29:40

then you go again

29:42

into this ego

29:45

pitfall where

29:47

someone is

29:50

the one who can say , no , this is ugly

29:53

or this is beautiful or whatever .

29:55

Yes .

29:56

Yeah . So I would say . And

29:58

then we go again to more like the

30:00

relevance discussion , not about beautiful

30:04

and ugly , but more about is it relevant

30:07

to the organization , is it relevant to people

30:10

, is it ? I

30:12

think it's more about that .

30:14

Yeah , this episode is called the key to relevance

30:16

. So

30:19

what can you say ? What is the key ? How

30:21

do you unlock this

30:24

relevance ? How do you add this meaning , more

30:26

meaning , to your designs ? Because that's what

30:28

you're doing Making

30:30

it relevant is making it well

30:32

. Let's describe relevance

30:34

first . What is relevance ? Se dzisiajaras

30:37

queJi .

30:39

I think we have touched upon it a couple

30:42

of times in this podcast . So

30:46

I think being relevant

30:48

means that for

30:52

me , it's a way that people would like

30:54

to use things or would like to go

30:56

to places or would like to

30:58

be at places . Then it becomes

31:01

relevant to them . It's

31:04

the whole discussion about the

31:07

new balance of how people organise

31:10

their work and private life so

31:14

they go to the places which are relevant for them

31:16

at this moment .

31:17

The balancing of private life and

31:19

work life . Yeah

31:22

, that's what it's all about when we're creating

31:24

environments .

31:26

I would say it's part of that . So why

31:30

people go to the office

31:32

is because it has

31:34

a certain relevance to them , because they meet

31:36

colleagues , or they have

31:38

this experience where

31:40

they can never find somewhere else , or there are

31:42

all these kinds of things . So

31:47

that's for

31:49

me what makes it relevant . And

31:53

then I think research

31:56

is one of them , but also

31:58

flexibility

32:01

. We have talked in our previous

32:03

talk a little

32:05

bit about flexibility .

32:07

You don't like that word , right .

32:09

You don't like it . I think it is

32:12

used in a lot of different and difficult

32:14

ways , so

32:17

you also need to be

32:19

a bit more clear what you would like to do

32:21

with flexibility . So

32:24

everyone asks for flexibility

32:26

, but what does it really

32:28

mean ? And I think

32:30

that flexibility we

32:32

should connect it more and more to this

32:34

relevance theme , so

32:37

spaces should

32:39

adapt to the human behavior

32:41

in a way to stay

32:43

relevant to them .

32:46

You talk about the relevance of over

32:49

time , the durability , yeah

32:51

, exactly .

32:52

So for me , flexibility is about .

32:55

Not about like you can do everything

32:57

on the same place . It's like

32:59

a multifunctional center

33:02

or something like that . We had those words in

33:05

Holland a few years ago . Every

33:08

hometown country had a kind of multifunctional

33:11

center . It was the most exploring

33:13

. You don't want to go there , you

33:15

want to go everywhere , but not there it's just

33:17

obviously all witchers .

33:21

Obviously you want to be able to use spaces

33:23

on different ways at different moments

33:26

in time , but

33:29

I think that flexibility is more about how

33:31

do the environments stay relevant

33:34

over time . So if

33:36

we see that people are

33:38

using the office more and more as a place

33:41

where they meet their colleagues

33:43

and have their meetings , then

33:45

I think also the office should

33:47

accommodate that . So

33:50

this is more how I see it .

33:52

I'm talking about hospitality . What

33:57

could be the relevance of hospitality right now

33:59

, these days ?

34:01

Yeah , what we see more and more

34:03

is that and that's what I really like

34:05

is that we

34:10

mix environments a lot . So

34:12

you see a lot of influences

34:15

, of hospitality

34:18

influences in offices and

34:21

vice versa , and you see

34:23

more retail experiences in

34:25

offices or in

34:27

hospitality environments . So I think that

34:31

learning also from different

34:33

environments and how they could be relevant

34:35

to other environments is really inspiring

34:37

. So that's also why

34:40

our designers and

34:42

our group of designers have different backgrounds

34:44

. So some really

34:47

have this background in hospitality , others

34:49

really have this background in offices , and

34:52

the funny thing is , when you

34:54

let them interact or when you let

34:56

them work on these

34:58

different projects , you get inspiring

35:00

results because they

35:03

look at it from a fresh pair of eyes , from

35:05

a different perspective .

35:06

Yeah , I was never into the

35:08

office design . I

35:11

hated to be in an office . I didn't want to work

35:13

for a boss in an office , so I had this

35:15

thing about offices

35:18

and then obviously we have some

35:21

students in our membership programs which

35:23

do design offices . So it is really refreshing

35:26

because they bring a new level

35:28

into the office world . And

35:30

we have some podcast guests about

35:33

office design and well

35:35

, they really made

35:38

me enthusiastic about the

35:41

extra levels you can add to an office , how

35:43

you can use the space , how you can read the space

35:46

, how you can see if a company

35:48

is successful or not , because

35:50

of how you design the space and the floor plans

35:52

. Did you see where the people are , in which space

35:54

the company is ? So inspiring

35:57

? So I was like , oh yeah , this is new . Now

36:00

they add another meaning maker

36:02

or a place making element there into

36:05

the world . So yeah , I love to hear

36:07

that . But in terrarium

36:09

design , if you talk about architecture , it

36:11

can last for years . We

36:14

have buildings in the world of 2000

36:16

years old , looking at the big cities

36:19

in Europe , rome or whatever

36:21

. Thousands of

36:23

millions of people are in a year visiting

36:25

those places . But then we talk about

36:27

interior design and that sometimes

36:30

it lasts well , with shops for

36:32

a few months within terrarium

36:34

design , hopefully for five

36:37

years . What

36:40

can we do about that ? How can we make it so

36:42

relevant that we don't want to change these environments

36:44

too much ? Because it's well

36:47

, a lot of us is based

36:49

on trends right Right now . You see

36:51

the magazines , we see television . That's one

36:53

of the frustrations I do have about

36:55

the terrarium design . It has

36:57

nothing to do with relevance , just about

37:00

consumerism , buying

37:02

new stuff , new excitement in your

37:04

life , and that's it . You're getting bored

37:06

for the color . Change the color and

37:09

change your life . It's not that . So

37:11

what's your perspective on that ?

37:14

That's also slightly changing , I think . So

37:16

when you look , for instance I

37:18

think maybe

37:21

it was last year or I

37:23

saw also one of these frame magazines where

37:28

the editor-in-chief also indicated

37:30

that they

37:33

also are shifting slightly towards

37:36

other topics . So

37:38

I think that

37:41

when you looked at the framework website

37:43

, it was a lot

37:45

about popping colors

37:48

and about really

37:51

strong , let's

37:53

say , visual representations . But

37:55

they are also tending more and more to

37:58

, I think , very interesting topics

38:00

about inclusivity , about

38:02

healthy environments , about

38:05

using all senses

38:08

in environments . So

38:12

I think that also by

38:14

shifting from , let's say

38:16

, color and

38:19

Instagram-able characters

38:22

to more relevant topics

38:25

, I think also the

38:27

quality of the offices change and

38:29

also maybe

38:31

also the durability of the offices change

38:34

. But

38:36

I also think that

38:41

we are more and more obviously looking

38:43

into and that's also

38:45

something we are doing in projects as well we

38:47

are registering also what we are putting

38:49

into the interior . So we

38:51

are looking at the environmental impact

38:54

of elements

38:56

, we are looking into

38:58

the reusability , into

39:00

the second-life option

39:02

. So I think , although

39:04

maybe the interiors last

39:06

for a shorter time

39:09

span than buildings , we try

39:11

to think of second-lives or third-lives

39:13

or endless-lives possibilities

39:15

.

39:17

That's really good news to hear from bigger

39:19

companies that are doing it , because they work obviously

39:21

on a bigger scale , so they can

39:23

create way more impact than just

39:26

designing one home , one residential

39:28

area . So well

39:31

, sounds great . So you

39:33

are registering the pieces of

39:35

furniture , the materials . You really have

39:37

a kind of Bible

39:39

where all the elements are there . Yeah

39:43

, so we work in .

39:44

Revit as a team and

39:46

within these Revit models , you can obviously

39:48

store a lot of data , so you can connect

39:51

a lot of data to your elements , and

39:53

we see that , while the

39:56

data used to be limited

39:58

to , let's say , color dimensions

40:01

manufacturers , I

40:03

think the type

40:06

of information also changes

40:08

which you attach to the elements , so

40:10

it becomes much more , let's say

40:12

, also a management tool or

40:15

a facility management tool at the end , rather

40:18

than only a design tool .

40:21

Yeah , great , yeah . So again multidisciplinary

40:24

, all kinds of worlds are mixing so

40:27

well . Obviously the

40:31

key to relevance is this kind

40:33

of research thing , because

40:35

you want to last , that

40:39

the environment lasts longer as

40:41

you design it , that people

40:44

can adapt to the space , the space

40:46

can adapt to them . That's a kind

40:48

of success recipe for well

40:51

good architecture . Is

40:56

that the kind of conclusion I want to look ? Is

40:59

there a kind of recipe

41:01

or ingredient Like you

41:03

can add ? It's like well , you

41:05

want a good tomato soup and you put a little

41:07

bit of garlic into it and then it tastes

41:09

much better . What do you have ?

41:11

some kind of success recipes or

41:13

key factors that when you add that to your

41:15

yeah

41:18

so luckily it doesn't work like that in design , so

41:20

I'm also in a way happy about that . Yeah

41:24

, but what I do think

41:27

is that also how

41:30

these conversations work , and while

41:33

doing a lot of conversations with people

41:35

, is that you hear different

41:38

bites and pieces from

41:40

a lot of people and you hear all

41:43

these new insights and I think

41:46

you need to check and

41:48

you need to test more or less on

41:51

how these insights work for you as

41:53

an organization . So not everything works

41:55

for everyone , but you could simply test

41:57

it . So also , like simple

41:59

things , what we're doing at the studio is like

42:01

when you start a new project

42:04

, your brainstorming not only with , let's

42:06

say , the core team of this

42:08

project , but you make it wider , you invite

42:10

people to join

42:13

. Your brainstorming parties results

42:15

to different , let's

42:17

say , insights , and

42:19

I think that that

42:22

is what that

42:24

should be a key takeout . So collect

42:27

all these different types of information

42:29

, collect all these type of different

42:32

books and

42:34

see how it can transform

42:37

your way of working and how it can transform

42:39

your life a little bit . So

42:42

listen a lot to people , talk

42:44

a lot to people and

42:49

also don't

42:52

try to only

42:55

put your opinion on the table , but also

42:57

listen to what others have to say and

42:59

try to be mindful for that and ask questions

43:02

about it . Don't

43:05

think too soon

43:07

that you know what it's like or

43:09

how it's going to be Be

43:11

curious .

43:15

Yeah , well , the key thing I took away from this episode

43:17

was that you literally designed the process

43:19

for that , so you don't have to think about

43:21

the process every time and asking the right

43:23

questions . You do have the right questions

43:26

, they are there , it's in your system

43:28

, in your process , so you can truly

43:31

focus on the end result , on

43:33

the design , on

43:35

your own research . Yeah

43:39

, I think that might work really well

43:41

. Just not just go with the flow or

43:43

designing an intuition or assumptions

43:45

like , hey , this could

43:47

be a beautiful place , maybe this is it . No

43:50

, does it feel sure when

43:52

you are on the right , when

43:54

the end result is like well , this is it

43:56

. Do you have a kind of certainty

43:58

when you know it's there , is there because

44:01

of the research , is that another ?

44:04

Yeah , in a way that

44:06

you need to trust your instinct again . So

44:10

at a certain moment you

44:13

need to ask yourself did

44:17

I get everything out of it ? And

44:20

you will feel it . And

44:23

you also need to realize that . You

44:29

know that and that's also

44:31

something which Rick Rubin again says

44:33

really nice in his book . He says

44:35

don't think of all

44:37

of these projects like that this needs

44:40

to be your masterpiece or this needs

44:42

to be your best work in life , because

44:44

ultimately it will not be like that . So

44:48

we saw it again and again over time , if

44:51

it was with music or with

44:53

art or whatever , people reinvented

44:57

themselves , people started

44:59

to think differently and that lead

45:01

to different results and

45:04

some you know it's

45:06

. Enjoy it , enjoy

45:10

the process , enjoy these

45:12

projects , but

45:15

don't put that you know big

45:18

pressure on yourself that it needs to be

45:20

your masterpiece .

45:22

Yeah , sounds great , even for a perfectionist

45:24

, because we have a lot

45:26

of perfectionists in our field . I guess

45:28

I know a lot of them

45:30

. Yeah , but so

45:33

actually

45:36

, what you're telling me is and that's what

45:39

I feel about your vision , your perspective

45:41

on the interior design and architecture world

45:43

it's all one big research

45:45

, it's we

45:48

never have this perfect

45:51

end result . It's just like

45:53

let's . I think this would be the

45:56

best new , best thing

45:58

for humanity Use

46:01

it , test it , live in it .

46:05

Yeah , you end the project with obviously

46:08

the best you could do at this moment for your clients

46:10

, but then again you

46:15

also learn from it once

46:17

you have delivered it . So

46:19

you visit it again , you see how people

46:21

use it , you see how people interact with it . And

46:24

what I really like and what I

46:26

see again and again , is that the

46:29

room for experimentation is back

46:31

. So I see

46:33

that a couple of organizations

46:36

there to experiment

46:39

within their organization to see how

46:41

people react to certain changes

46:43

, and that's something I really

46:45

like and I really love that , because

46:48

that means that you're mindful of how

46:51

people are using this space and you're mindful

46:53

of their inputs and how actually

46:56

you can achieve to

46:59

create something which was even better than you

47:02

originally thought . That's

47:05

also something we're currently doing for a client

47:07

and I'm explicitly not naming

47:09

clients or projects we're doing , because

47:11

I think it's not about that

47:13

and , in a way , naming

47:16

one client also could

47:20

make people think that this is a priority

47:22

and it is not because each client

47:25

is obviously as important . But

47:28

what we are doing there is we are delivering

47:31

a building or an interior

47:33

fit out for them in 2028

47:36

. But we are

47:38

currently testing , within

47:41

their current headquarters , our

47:45

ideas , how it could work

47:47

and will these kind

47:49

of ideas really help people

47:52

to get the best out of their work or

47:54

the best out of their way

47:56

of working . So I really like that

47:58

, that this experiment seems to

48:00

be back , and

48:02

it is also a logical moment

48:04

that it's back , because it is a time of uncertainty

48:07

. You see that a lot of organizations

48:09

struggle with the fact will

48:12

people come back to the office or not , and

48:14

for how many days ? So

48:17

that's , I think , within

48:21

all of the challenges of this time . I

48:23

think it's also a nice

48:26

thing to do , yeah

48:28

.

48:28

So a last question when

48:30

are we heading with the design world

48:32

? What does the design

48:35

feature look like in your eyes ? You

48:37

said we are going to . There is more

48:39

experimenting nowadays . I

48:42

do like that as well , because maybe that's to do

48:44

with commercial aspect of we want to see

48:46

new things , we want to experience new

48:48

environments . We

48:50

are getting bored very quickly because we see

48:53

on social media the whole world

48:55

is coming on your timeline , so

48:57

it's hard to stand out . So

48:59

where are we heading with design ? How important

49:01

is design in the future ?

49:06

I think it's super important . So

49:10

I think the power of design is always

49:12

to make meaningful differences for

49:14

people . And

49:18

yeah , where are we heading with design ? I think it's the most

49:20

difficult question to answer , but you

49:22

do see a lot of things happening . So

49:24

you see that there is more

49:27

focus on health . There

49:30

is , I think , a lot of

49:32

focus on inclusivity

49:34

and diversity , which

49:36

I really think is a good thing . I

49:39

think we are mindful of generation

49:42

changes , so you see

49:44

that the characteristics of different

49:47

generations , they

49:49

demand for different solutions and

49:53

also things like mixed reality . So

49:55

how does the digital

49:58

work world and the physical

50:00

world come together ? I think all of these things

50:02

are shaping , let's

50:05

say , the future of materials . But

50:09

how it will exactly look , I hope each

50:12

time different .

50:14

We can work on it , we can build it , we

50:16

can design it right . That's

50:18

the power of our expertise , our profession

50:20

. Yeah , together we do have the power

50:23

to design this world and to

50:25

well , maybe improve humanity

50:27

. Yeah , well

50:30

, wonderful , Geoffrey , thanks a lot . I

50:33

told you we go with the flow . That's what it was

50:35

. I always prepare some kind

50:37

of script to get

50:39

out , at least what I would like to get

50:41

out . But I loved it . You

50:43

gave me some new surprises , new insights and

50:46

really cool sharing

50:48

your perspective on the design and architecture

50:51

world . So thanks a lot for that . Good

50:54

luck at calling it out .

50:56

It felt like a nice conversation yeah

50:58

.

50:59

Well , that's great . That's a good compliment . I always

51:01

would like to have that . That is not an

51:03

official interview or whatever

51:05

. I just , yeah

51:07

, just a talk about design

51:09

passionates . Yeah , well , wonderful , we

51:12

are going to prepare for our listeners on Instituteofi

51:14

nteriori mpact . com/geoffrey .

51:17

You can have the landing page . You will go

51:19

there , or beyondinteriordesign . club and

51:21

you go to the blog . You can find

51:23

more information on Geoffrey there . You

51:25

can contact him by LinkedIn . That's

51:28

the best way to connect with you .

51:30

Definitely , but also feel

51:33

free to visit us at

51:35

the Collier's office in Amsterdam

51:38

. Cool yeah , happy

51:41

to have a coffee , have a talk

51:43

about architecture , interiors

51:45

, love it .

51:47

Well , sounds great , Geoffrey . Yeah

51:50

yeah , Thanks a lot . Thanks a lot , people , for

51:52

listening to another Beyond Interior

51:54

Design podcast . Well

51:56

, subscribe to the channel . Go to

51:59

beyondinteriordesign . club for more information

52:01

, practicalities , entrepreneurship skills

52:03

, everything beyond

52:06

interior design . Thanks

52:08

a lot . See you next time . Bye .