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Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast.

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Every two weeks, we post podcast versions of one of our free training videos,

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or you can access our videos now at BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org.

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Enjoy the podcast. Hi. I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries.

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Welcome to this episode of our podcast.

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Or maybe you're watching a video.

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We're so thankful that you've joined us.

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Our special guest today is Jodie Niznik.

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Jodie is an author, a speaker, a podcaster.

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She has a podcast called So Much More Creating Space for God

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that is wonderful. She's a DTS grad and she's been with us before.

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You can see or hear some of the things we've talked about

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before if you go to our website and search for her.

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But today, because we talk

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primarily to women who are

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in some sort of leadership position, it doesn't have to be anything major.

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You don't have to be running a whole ministry

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but perhaps you lead a committee, perhaps you lead a small group.

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There are many ways that you can be a leader.

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And so you're the people we're talking to today.

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And one topic that we keep emphasizing and we have other

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resources on this topic is really about soul care.

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And so I've invited Jodie to talk to you

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and to me about personal retreats.

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So, Jodi, as we think about nourishing ourselves

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for everyone, but particularly leaders, but this will be helpful to anyone, I think.

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Every believer needs to have

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some time to nourish their own souls.

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But why should a retreat be a be a regular part of our lives, But why should a retreat be a be a regular part of our lives,

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But why should a retreat be a be a regular part of our lives,

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especially leaders' lives?

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Yeah, well, I think if we're specifically

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first talking to leaders, I think as leaders, we are crafting

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experiences and encounters with God for others all the time.

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And it is really critical for us to pull away and make sure

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we're also getting that spaciousness with the Lord.

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So I think that's the critical need is that we're pouring out

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I mean, we've I'm sure it's been said a thousand times even in BOW,

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is that we pour out from fullness

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and not emptiness. And I think a lot of times

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when we keep creating spaces for other people

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and we neglect that time for ourselves, we become emptier and emptier.

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If we're just talking in general, if I can also say that I think there's

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this rhythm of work and rest that God sets up from the very,

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very beginning. And he models for us good boundaries

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when he takes a day of rest on the seventh day. When he instills

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Sabbath as one of the very first things for the Israelite community,

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he is saying You are not defined by your work and I want you to pull away

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and rest in me and know that I am sufficient

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and can provide

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for all the work that needs to get done in the amount of time that I've given you.

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And so there's this kind of rhythm of work and rest,

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rhythm of Sabbath that we have every week in our life

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or should have some sort of rest in our week.

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But I think retreating is something else that,

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I mean, even the Israelite community models for us.

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They took the seventh year off

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when they were plowing the fields and let the land rest.

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There was something called a Year of Jubilee where they released all the slaves after 50 years.

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So there's these other kind of larger markers of time

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that God instilled back in long, long ago

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as spaces for us to

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pull away and just do a little something different

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and spend a little different time with the Lord.

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And so I think as leaders, we need it to fill our soul.

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But just as Christian women,

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God invites us to pull away

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and spend time with him so that we can just know him better.

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Absolutely. And to do that often requires trust, doesn't it?

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Really, faith that he will

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give you the ability to complete your work in the remaining time.

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If you're a leader, you're responsible for a lot of things.

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You really have to trust God and say, I'm going off for a day to take a retreat

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for myself. And yet it's so necessary, just as you

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said, as people have always,

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as you reiterated while ago,

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that you're pouring out and pouring out and you got to take in.

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And it just doesn't really fit with our culture, does it?

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No, it doesn't. And I think you hit on one of the key resistances

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is that so much is demanded of us.

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It is really hard to pull away.

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We live overfull lives.

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If it's not the leadership in the ministry that we're stewarding,

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it's all the other responsibilities

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that are also in our life demanding our attention and care.

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And so it is very difficult

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to find space and resources to pull away

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for a little bit of time

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and slow down and rest.

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And I think there is also this kind of

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low level simmering anxiety.

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When we finally do pull away, it's really hard to settle our soul

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into a place of stillness and rest

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because we are thinking about the thousand

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things that we have left behind that are not done yet.

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And so it does, it requires a great amount of trust for us to say

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God will provide.

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If he's called me to this, he's given me

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you know, it is within the wise boundaries that he's set up for me.

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And I do have to trust him.

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I have to trust that this is the best thing that I can do.

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Pulling away and spending time with God will actually

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multiply my time when I come back because I will be more rested.

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I will be more focused. I will be doing the things that God is inviting me to do and not the things

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that the world may be pulling me into that God didn't invite me to.

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And I think clarity is one of the main reasons,

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maybe not one of the main reasons, but is a key reason for pulling away

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and having a retreat is we know, is this really what I'm, is God

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calling me to do this or have I called me to do this?

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Or sometimes it could be that the church is called you to do it.

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The church is putting pressure on you to do too many things as well.

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100%. Yes.

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And it's hard to discern that sometimes.

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It is. And I think retreating is discernment space.

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Mm hmm. Right. I totally agree with that.

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So what is a retreat and what isn't a retreat?

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I mean, how do we define a retreat, actually?

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Yeah. And I think this is a really critical question

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because a retreat can be a lot of different things.

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A retreat is not a week away in the mountains, although that would be lovely.

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And maybe that is something that we can actually have, you know,

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every once in a long while to pull away for that kind of extended time.

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But I think a retreat can also be a three hour block of time

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where we turn our phone off, we go to a beautiful space,

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or we find a quiet undistracted space.

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And we purpose to be still before the Lord, be spacious

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in our relationship with the Lord and spend extended time with Him.

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So I think a retreat can be actually quite small and doable for most people.

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And I do think longer periods of time are really, really helpful,

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especially like an overnight is really, every time I have done

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an overnight retreat, I come back energized, renewed vision.

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I'm surprised by how the Lord has shown up and redirected my steps.

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So it has been critical for me to have those overnight spaces.

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But in lieu of that, the 3 hours sometimes on a Saturday morning

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has also been very filling for my soul and helpful.

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Well, and I just did the

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guided retreat that you have written just a few weeks ago,

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as we had talked about taking this topic.

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It was about 3 hours that it took me to do it

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and it was very refreshing and I'll talk more about that later.

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But 3 hours, which really made a difference.

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It did make a difference, and it was very, very helpful.

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Although I've enjoyed longer retreats before too.

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So what are the things we might do on a retreat?

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I mean, if you're just out there, if you're in our audience and you think this sounds really good,

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but have no idea what to do, where do I start?

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What do I do? Yeah, I think there's some key components to what is it that you want to do?

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The first thing is unplug.

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You tell the people around you you are on available for this amount of time.

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And you turn your phone off.

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I think that is critical.

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To be unreachable for just a short amount of time

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makes us actually reachable by God.

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And when we are bombarded with

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knowing text messages are coming in or having to answer questions

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about ministry or family or anything,

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it is just enough distraction to pull us out of that space

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that we're trying to create to be with God. So I would say the first thing is to unplug digitally.

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The other thing I think is critical for retreating

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is to pay attention to our body. And that may mean that the first thing we need to do

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is take a quick nap and to rest

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and not keep pushing, pushing, pushing.

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I think a lot of us arrive at the need for a retreat

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because we are exhausted. We're physically exhausted, we're

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emotionally exhausted, spiritually exhausted.

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And so give yourself a lot of grace

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and ask, what do I need to do right now?

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And it may mean that

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you need to rest, and that's OK.

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The other things that I really love to do in a retreat

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is bring a journal in my Bible. And I like to start

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by looking back over the season that I've been in and just asking the Lord

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what was good about this season? What was hard about this season?

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What do you want me to notice?

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So I spend time looking back.

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And then I like to kind of assess

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where I am in the present.

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And then I like to spend time looking forward with God

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and asking him to redirect my steps.

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And we can get a little bit more into that as well.

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But I also think, just another thing I think is critical

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for retreating is delighting in God.

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So if you have a more extended

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time, what is delightful to you? Is it going on a really slow walk

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and looking at flowers? Is it painting or drawing?

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Is it dancing?

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Is it, you know, is there some sort of creative

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something that just delights your soul and you don't normally get to do it?

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Just create a little space to also do something fun

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and delightful. To create something or

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do something physical that is just delightful for you.

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So those are just the general

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kind of components that I think need to be a part of a retreat.

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I was part of a retreat

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when I was on church staff

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that the whole staff went to do a retreat.

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And when we got there and heard our speaker

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the first time that, you know, we were all together

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and she was preparing us for what we were going to do,

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she let us know that we were going to be silent for the next,

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you know, all night.

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And many people had roommates.

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It was a church paying for this, you know.

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And so we had to be quiet. We could not talk with the people in the room with us,

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and we could not talk to them at dinner.

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We could not talk to them at breakfast. We were there

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to be with God and to hear from him.

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And I know that was really challenging, particularly to some of the young men.

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They were just, it was, they were almost

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angry that this is what they were going to do.

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I think they saw themselves playing basketball together,

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having games together, you know, just guy stuff.

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They were anticipating that that was going

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to be their retreat and instead it was their retreat with God.

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Instead, of

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fun and games kind of retreat.

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So I do think sometimes when we think about like

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I've been on many women's retreats and it does seem like

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a lot of it is filled with just getting

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to know one another, having time together, enjoying one another,

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but I've appreciated the retreats that were more than that,

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that actually called us to go

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and be with God for a while by ourselves.

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Yeah, and I would say that's two different kinds of retreats.

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The traditional women's retreat pulling away.

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I always come home more tired from those because I've stayed up late

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and I've made relationships and they're beautiful and important seasons.

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But this retreat that I'm talking about

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and I think what you even just described that your staff went on is really a time

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to pull away to a different pace so that we can rest with God,

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so that we can gain, glean, gain some clarity

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on what God wants.

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I think, you know, an important principle that we see

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in Scripture is when God speaks.

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I love that passage in I Kings with Elijah.

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When God speaks to Elijah it is not in the earthquake.

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It is not in the fire. It is not in the, you know, all of these tumultuous things.

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It's in the quiet whisper. And I think that

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we have to let our soul settle and still so that we can hear God.

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And it's when we get quiet

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which is uncomfortable for us because we are not used to being quiet,

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that is when our soul kind of settles a little bit.

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And I think we can start to hear God's voice.

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God, of course He can speak to us however he wants.

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He is God. But the scriptural principle

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in that passage is that God tends to speak

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in the gentle whisper. And we have to attune ourselves

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to be ready to hear his gentle whisper because it's very easy to miss God.

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We can miss God because we get too consumed with our own busyness and things.

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I think it's interesting, you know, that retreat experience you went on.

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And I would say to anybody listening, I would encourage you to tell if you're

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going with other people on a retreat, let them know what kind of retreat it is.

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Those guys might have been a little more prepared if they had known

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this is where we're going. And maybe they were told and they didn't listen.

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I don't think we knew. The speaker was from out of town,

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so she came in right before the retreat. And I don't even know

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if she had definitely decided she would have us be, you know, silent.

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It wasn't forever. It was just after our first meeting together

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until through breakfast the next morning until we got back together that

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we were supposed to be silent. But even that was quite a challenge for some people.

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Oh yeah. I don't think they had ever been called to be quiet.

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Maybe in school when they were little boys.

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I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah.

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You know, one thing is you talk about what you would do on a retreat.

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One thing that this speaker had us do

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one of the questions that she had us ask

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is, what are you grieving?

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And it was a really good question.

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I did not realize how many things in my life

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I was grieving until she forced me

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to ask God what those things were.

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And, you know, the more I sat by myself that evening

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and thankfully I did not have a roommate, so I was never tempted to talk to anybody else.

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But the longer I sat there,

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just the more things that I thought of that I was grieving.

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And that is really hard on your soul to grieve and be so busy

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that you can't acknowledge it or even consider it

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because you feel like I can't think about that right now.

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Yeah. And I think, gosh, that's a beautiful question

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because if there's anything we want to avoid, it's pain.

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And so we don't take the time to consider

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what was disappointing about the last season.

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Where did God not show up and I thought he was going to?

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And of course, we have to reframe that because it's not that God didn't show up,

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it's that we didn't receive what we deeply wanted.

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Where am I just sad about the way things turned out?

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Where was it really hard?

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And I think when we get really honest with God about those things,

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we actually invite him into the pain

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and we start to see

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that he's doing other things. Things that are

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maybe not what we expected, maybe not what we wanted.

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But he can help us through those spaces of sadness,

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which actually brings us to a healthier place on the other side.

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Makes us more effective as leaders when we've really dealt

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with that deep, deeper part of us.

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Yeah, I love that question.

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Yeah, it was a really good question. And of course it was followed with, you know,

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can you give these burdens to God?

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Can you set those aside and trust him

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in grief and in those situations?

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So it was a really challenging retreat in many ways.

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It was very good.

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I've also been on

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like a day retreat

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of where we,

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it was a group, so it was a silent retreat again.

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But it was only like maybe 9 a.m.

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to 3 p.m. And those were good retreats, too.

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I really enjoyed those. And again, somebody gave

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us some questions to think about or some verses to consider,

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some reading to listen to before we went out.

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So in some ways, your retreat was sort of set up for you, which

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as we talked to these leaders online,

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they may not have that. But you have just done this with a retreat.

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And it's the one that I mentioned earlier. It's called

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"Guided Retreat for Entering a New Season."

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Tell us about that. Yeah, I think one of the things that you're hitting on

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is when we finally do pull away and make space to go on a retreat,

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a lot of times we're lost as to what to do with the time.

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And I really felt like

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I wanted to help people in that space.

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And guide them through God's word

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to do some things to help you enter into a new season.

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It's called the "Guided Retreat for Entering a New Season", but it's really

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just a guided retreat for starting a new day sometimes.

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And what it does, though, it has three movements

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and that first movement is looking back and like you said, just asking God

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what was good, what was really hard, what do I need to process with you?

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So spending some time looking back over whatever season it was.

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And then the second part is really assessing

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our present circumstances.

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What season are we in? What things need to move forward with us?

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And I think Henry Cloud calls this metabolizing.

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So we're taking that past experience. And just like we do with food,

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our body takes the vitamins and the nutrients we need.

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We learn and we grow from those things that we get rid of the rest.

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And that's really what we want to do in this kind of assessing

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the current season is what needs to come with me.

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What responsibilities and roles do I have that God is fully aware of?

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And so those things, whether they're constraints,

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or gifts, callings, those things move forward.

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So we kind of recognize what those are.

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And then the third movement is now, where are we going, Lord?

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Is there a new direction you're leading me in?

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Is there a next step that you want me to take?

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Do you want to shift my focus in any way?

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Perhaps it's just clarifying it. Perhaps it's just God comforting you that he is present with you

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and He has been with you and he will continue to be with you.

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So that's the movement of this particular retreat.

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It's all centered around Scripture and guiding and

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letting God's word actually be the thing that pulls these things out of us.

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A few questions, of course, but mostly

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I really wanted us to sit in God's Word and let the word be what informs us

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and the Spirit using the living and active word to inform us about

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how he wants us to move forward. You do a great job moving

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the group or the individual through verses and through those movements that you've just described.

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It was really helpful. When I did it,

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I was really doing it more in preparation for this conversation that we're having

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then for feeling like I needed a retreat for entering a new season.

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But when I got in it,

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I realized I'm still somewhat entering a new season.

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We're at a new church over the last couple of years, and

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we're still entering it in a lot of ways.

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We're not

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you know, firmly firm.

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Firmly firm. That's ridiculous.

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You know what I mean? Yes, I do. We're just not totally settled.

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Still figuring it out.

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We are. We're figuring it out.

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And so I really appreciated

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all of your questions and your guidance and the verses that we looked at.

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It was really very helpful to me. And the more I was into it, the more I thought this really is helpful

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for anyone, that you do not have to be in a new season.

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It could just be that God's speaking to them

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about a new season and there aren't even aware of it yet.

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Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that's another really important point to note is when, you know,

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we've talked a lot about being exhausted and that being a trigger for us knowing

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we need to go on a retreat. But I think there's also sometimes this knowing God has got something for me,

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like I know it kind of deep in my soul, but I cannot figure out what it is.

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And I think there's this sense that there's something

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changing or God is moving me in a new way.

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And that's where I think doing something like this to

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slow down and be guided actually helps us with that discernment process.

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So I think there's this kind of like little tap on our shoulder

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and we're saying, OK, I don't have time, I don't have time, or,

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you know, I'm sitting with you every morning, but I'm just, you know, then I've got to rush out the door.

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That's where I think that's a critical space to just say, OK, I'm

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making the time, because whatever God has to say, it is so worth hearing.

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And yeah, I think sometimes we're afraid

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of what we think God is saying to us, though, don't you?

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Yes. I 100% agree with that.

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I've felt that way before.

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I felt like, oh, I don't know if I want to know what you want to tell me, Lord.

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I'm nervous about that. I think that goes back to the trust issue

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and believing that God is good.

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I just recently heard that

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the root of sin is believing

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that God doesn't want the very best for us,

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that God is an inviting us into the very best place.

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And I thought, well, that is a really interesting way

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to put it, because as soon as we start doubting God,

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we start choosing our way over His way, and it's never better.

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It's never, ever better.

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God's way is always the best way, even when it's really hard,

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even when it leads us through the valley of the shadow of death, it's still better

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because we're with God. And we just like to be comfortable.

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Or at least I do. Yes, I do too.

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I don't really like change. I really just like to

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stay in my comfortable place and do the comfortable things

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that I'm already doing and not be challenged beyond that.

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That's just not always what God wants.

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It's not for our best really to get too comfortable.

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Well, no, it's not. We don't grow. When we're comfortable we don't grow.

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And we're not forced to seek

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God for his sustenance of us.

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We're not seeking him and we're not being transformed.

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So comfort actually may feel really good to our flesh,

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but it doesn't lead us to be the women that we want to be.

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When we think about who is it that I want to be in

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five years, it's going to be uncomfortable to get there.

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It's not an easy walk in the park.

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It's a climbing of a mountain.

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It's going to take some preparation and it's going to take some sacrifice

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to be the people that we deeply long to be.

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Those people that we want to be, that we envision ourselves as,

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they don't arrive there

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without a few bumps and bruises.

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That's a good way to put it.

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Is there anything else you'd like to add

29:18

as we've talked about the retreat?

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You know, I think I would just add my personal

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experience is

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when I was in a season of extreme busyness,

29:31

I didn't take space for retreat.

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And I think it really cost me

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because I stayed in some places and I kept saying yes

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to things that maybe were not the best yes for me.

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And it was when God actually helped me cease.

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And sometimes he does that in some pretty extreme ways.

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Sometimes we do it because we physically exhaust ourselves

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and we get sick and we wind up landed in bed for multiple days.

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That's not the retreat we want.

30:09

That is not the retreat.

30:11

That's like forced bed rest.

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And yet God will help us cease

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and give us some clarity in those spaces.

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So I guess for me, I would just say it's almost

30:27

like taking your vitamins, right, to stay healthy.

30:30

Retreating is absolutely 100% worth

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the sacrifice that you're going to make to take a retreat.

30:38

And if you don't know what to do, there are a ton of great resources.

30:42

Of course, I would love for you to use the guided retreat that I've created.

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And I will say there is a small fee for this retreat

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just because we paid video production and some other things.

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However, if that is at all a problem for you,

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Kay's going to have my email in the notes and you just reach out to me.

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I will give it to you because I want you to take this retreat.

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And so I don't want anything to stand in the way.

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Costs should never prohibit you from receiving the resources that you need.

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So just know I will do that with joy.

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I won't even ask a second question about it.

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If it's not this resource, though, there are other resources out there

31:24

to help you take space away in retreat and to guide you into that space.

31:29

I would just encourage you to do it.

31:32

So how can the audience connect to your retreat,

31:36

to your podcast, to the other

31:39

resources that you have, your Bible studies?

31:43

How do they get to all about.

31:46

Yeah, the easiest way is to go to my website,

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which is JodieNiznik.com

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and everything is there.

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You'll find the retreat there. You'll find a link to my podcast, which is a scripture meditation podcast,

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and you'll find links to my Bible studies

32:09

which have spiritual formation practices embedded in them.

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So that's the easiest way to find me.

32:17

That's great. And Beyond Ordinary Women also has some other videos

32:23

and podcast episodes and articles on soul care, not specifically

32:27

about personal retreats, but just different aspects of soul care.

32:32

What soul care is? What that means?

32:36

If you go to BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org

32:38

and go to the menu at the top, Resources,

32:43

go to Leadership Development,

32:45

and then go to General Leadership and You as a Leader.

32:51

So there are several steps but it's

32:54

Resources > Leadership Development > General Leadership

32:58

and then You as a Leader.

33:00

And we also have some articles on our blog.

33:04

And you can search on the blog for soul care

33:07

and find everything that we have.

33:10

We also have a Media List

33:14

that you can look at that will sort by topics

33:18

if you choose to do that, to find the same articles.

33:22

Whatever you think is the easiest. Or just contact us.

33:28

Email us at BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org.

33:31

Go to our website and contact us and that works as well.

33:35

Thank you, Jodie, for taking this time and thank you for your generous offer

33:39

for those who don't feel like they can pay for that

33:43

guided retreat because it is so well worth it.

33:47

I really appreciate your taking this time

33:50

to talk about this with us

33:53

to encourage the leaders out there to do this.

33:57

It's really an essential in a leader's life, I believe.

34:02

I agree. I believe it's also essential.

34:04

Thank you for having me. It's always fun to talk with you, Kay.

34:08

We love having you. Thank you for being with us once again.

34:13

And we will see you next time.

34:16

And we hope that you will go and look at our resources

34:20

and we'll see you then.

34:22

Thanks for listening to the Beyond Ordinary Women podcast.

34:27

You can find more podcast episodes and other resources for leaders

34:31

by going to BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org.

34:36

This podcast is produced by Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries.

34:41

Our production team includes Diana Anunda,

34:46

Evelyn Babcock, Kay Daigle,

34:49

Sharifa Stevens and Deborah Herring.

34:53

The theme music, "Back in Stride",

34:55

was written by Don E. Miller,

34:58

produced by Glenn W. Cranford,