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bluehost.com/WonderSuite. Darmuk

1:17

and Jalad at

1:20

Tanagra. If

1:23

you get that reference, you're a Trekkie

1:25

like me and I'm so excited to

1:27

connect with you on that. That is

1:29

from the episode Darmuk, the 102nd episode

1:32

of Star Trek The Next Generation, found

1:34

in the fifth season. I saw that

1:36

episode for the first time when I

1:38

was in junior high and it broke

1:40

my brain because what happens real quick

1:43

is the Enterprise runs into another ship

1:45

at a planet. That ship beams their

1:47

captain and Captain Picard down to

1:49

that planet and then what ensues

1:52

is essentially the finding out that

1:54

this race speaks in metaphor

1:56

and myth and that Darmuk and

1:58

Jalad were too legendary travelers.

2:00

They were strangers who met and

2:03

faced a common enemy on the

2:05

island of Tanagra and there is

2:07

a beast or a whatever

2:09

you want to call it an

2:11

alien to overcome on that planet.

2:14

And this is what they were

2:16

forging a connection with the Federation

2:18

and Captain Picard by beaming them

2:20

both down there to do just

2:22

that become modern day Darmukh and

2:24

Jalad. Why do I bring that

2:26

up? Well first up, welcome back to

2:28

Beyond the to do list a podcast

2:30

not just about managing the day to

2:32

day busyness but the true goal of

2:34

productivity living a more meaningful life. I'm

2:37

your host Eric Fisher and in

2:39

this episode, as you can guess

2:41

we are diving deeper into the

2:43

world of effective communication with Pulitzer

2:46

prize winning journalist and many other

2:48

awards author Charles doohig of the

2:50

power of habit smarter

2:52

faster better and his new

2:54

book out now super communicators how

2:57

to unlock the secret language of

2:59

connection. And what I love about

3:01

this book is that super communicators

3:03

aren't just conveying information and making

3:06

sure that that information has been

3:08

received. Although these days that's a

3:10

100% if you can actually do

3:12

that super communicators do

3:14

much more than that they connect

3:17

in all settings personal and professional

3:19

and no I don't mean in

3:21

like a touchy feely way although

3:23

yes when that's appropriate on the

3:25

personal side but it also means

3:28

you can connect on the professional

3:30

side when appropriate and that connection

3:32

is made through communication and that

3:34

there's a camaraderie and a mutual

3:36

support there as someone who is

3:39

a communication major in college this

3:41

really resonates with me but I

3:43

really think it's going to resonate with you and in fact

3:46

I think this book is a podcasters must

3:48

have book so in case you're a podcaster

3:50

listening to this this is something I highly

3:52

suggest you pick up but regardless if you're

3:55

a podcaster or not everybody communicates so I

3:57

know this book is going to make a

3:59

big impact for you. And it

4:01

starts here in this conversation with

4:04

Charles Duhigg. Well,

4:07

this week, it is my privilege to welcome

4:09

back to the show Charles Duhigg. Charles, welcome

4:11

back to Beyond the To Do List. Thanks

4:14

for having me back again. I am excited. You've

4:16

been back. Well, you've been back never. You've

4:18

been back once and now twice. You

4:20

came two times previously. And

4:23

you've got a brand new book. It's

4:25

called Super Communicators, How to Unlock the

4:27

Secret Language of Connection. And I love

4:29

this book because I was a communications

4:31

major in college, which is

4:33

really something that prepares you for radio

4:36

and television, both in front and behind

4:38

the mic or the camera. But

4:40

to me, there's also this fascinating thing

4:43

of an exciting kind of almost

4:45

philosophical or sci-fi aspect to it in

4:47

a human level of communication theory. And

4:49

that's what this book brought me back

4:51

to in terms of like tickling that,

4:53

you know, part of my brain, so

4:56

to speak. Oh, that's so

4:58

nice to hear. Yeah. The theory is amazing. And

5:00

then the stories are actually amazing, right? That sort

5:02

of practical takeaways because the truth of the matter

5:04

is that, as you know,

5:06

communication and conversation, there's a science to

5:09

it. And if you learn

5:11

that science, you're able to connect with others

5:13

so much better. Yeah. And that's

5:15

the thing is like we want to connect and we

5:17

want to understand. We want to learn. We want to get

5:19

along. We want to, you know, connect with others just for

5:22

our own sake, although really it comes out to be for

5:25

everybody's sake. Learning how to be a super communicator helps not

5:27

only our own self

5:29

but everyone else because the flow of information, thoughts,

5:32

feelings, all

5:34

of the things, they flow more freely and

5:36

they connect. If I had

5:38

a theme word for the book, I would say connection. And

5:41

in fact, that's in the subtitle, so duh. Right. Right.

5:44

Unlocking the secret language of connection. And it's

5:46

sometimes helpful to sort of define what a super

5:48

communicator is because sometimes what

5:50

he's been talking about is a super communicator instead

5:52

of a super middle

5:54

school football club. Yeah. leap

6:00

immediately into mind for you? Yeah,

6:02

there's a couple people, so I feel lucky. Yeah,

6:04

yeah, tell me one of them. Who's one of them? Well,

6:06

so I'm gonna just call this out there. One of the

6:08

people that I would call is my editor

6:11

that does this show. So he's gonna

6:13

hear this long time friend, 20 plus

6:15

years since from college, so. And

6:17

so he's, for you, he's a super communicator,

6:19

and you're probably a super communicator back, right?

6:21

You're people who know how to connect with

6:23

each other, know how to really like get

6:25

on the same wavelength really quickly to trust

6:27

each other. And there are some people who

6:29

can consistently do this with everyone, right? We've

6:31

all met these people, we know who these

6:34

folks are. And for a long time, I

6:36

thought that like there was something that they

6:38

were born with, like they were born with

6:40

charisma or they were extroverts. But it turns

6:42

out as I got deeper into this stuff,

6:44

what I learned is literally anyone can learn

6:46

to become a super communicator. In fact, super

6:48

communicators want super communicators at some point,

6:50

something happened to make them think about

6:52

communication a little bit more. And so

6:55

once we learn these skills, then anyone

6:57

can do it. And I

6:59

love that, that it's a skill.

7:01

I mean, certain people's other skills

7:03

or natural innate talents do help

7:05

them along in certain aspects of

7:08

it, but overall, it's still

7:10

something that we all can learn to

7:12

do and be better at. Absolutely, and

7:14

for me, this was really driven home

7:16

when I figured out that I

7:18

was communicating badly and it surprised me. I would fall

7:20

into this pattern with my wife, and this also happened

7:22

at work, but I would come home from like a

7:25

tough day and I would start complaining about my day

7:27

and say, you know, like, my boss is a

7:29

jerk or my coworkers don't appreciate me. And I

7:31

said this to my wife and my wife would

7:33

respond with some really practical advice. She'd say, why

7:35

don't you take your boss out to lunch? You guys can get to know

7:37

each other better. And instead of being able

7:39

to hear what she was saying, I would get even more

7:42

upset. And then she would get upset at me, because I

7:44

was upset. And so I went to researchers

7:46

and experts and I said, what's going on here? And what they

7:48

said is, well, you are making

7:50

a mistake in the kind of conversation

7:52

you are having. You are

7:54

not actually speaking to each other. And what they said

7:56

is, what we've learned is that we think of a

7:59

discussion as one thing. but it actually contains

8:01

multiple different kinds of conversations and most

8:03

of them fall into one of three

8:05

buckets. There's these practical discussions, right, where

8:07

we're sort of talking about plans or

8:09

solving problems. There's emotional conversations where

8:11

my goal is to tell you how I feel,

8:13

but I don't want you to solve my problem.

8:16

And then there's social conversations where we talk about how

8:18

we relate to each other and to society. And

8:22

they said the problem that you're having is

8:24

that you are having an emotional conversation in

8:26

those moments and your wife is having a

8:28

practical conversation. And both of those are equally

8:30

valid kinds of conversations, but because you're not

8:32

having the same conversation at the same time,

8:34

you're not hearing each other. Yeah, it's

8:36

different objectives. And again, it's not that there's

8:38

a disalignment in terms of the

8:41

goal to, you know, get along and

8:43

communicate. It's that you're communicating, it's almost

8:45

like the radio waves. You know, you

8:47

turn the dial and there's different spectrums

8:49

and different like wavelengths and you're on

8:51

different wavelengths, but you're still trying to

8:53

get through and it's signaled a noise.

8:56

That's exactly right. And that is from neurological

8:58

studies that when you're having an emotional conversation,

9:00

you use different parts of your brain than

9:02

when you're having a practical conversation or social

9:04

conversation. And so the takeaway from that is like,

9:06

we need to be using the same parts of

9:08

our brain at the same time to really be

9:10

able to understand each other and to really connect.

9:13

I want to keep moving in this direction with this

9:15

thread of the conversation, but I want to back

9:17

up for one second and say the last two

9:19

times you were on, you were here about different

9:21

books, The Power of Habit and Smarter, Better, Maybe

9:23

I've got the order wrong. Smarter, Faster, Better, Smarter,

9:25

Better, Faster. Yeah. One

9:27

of those, you know, but those weren't

9:30

completely separate topics from this mainly because

9:32

communication is an overarching thing that permeates

9:34

everything we do. But I'm curious to

9:36

see what are your thoughts on the

9:38

through line from those books

9:41

to this one. So

9:43

when I write The Power of Habit and Smarter,

9:45

Faster, Better, and in particular, this is true of

9:47

The Power of Habit, it's very, very self-focused, right?

9:49

It's about how do I change my habits? How

9:51

do I automatically do the things that

9:54

I want to do? And I think

9:56

it's really powerful. And I think there's a lot to be learned

9:58

from that. But at some point, I begin to realize. it

10:00

does not matter how successful you are. So

10:03

much of our own success

10:05

depends on other people, right? It depends on the team

10:07

we're working with. It depends on how we get along

10:09

with our family. It depends on whether our ability to

10:11

go in and have a conversation with someone and convince

10:13

them to trust us. And so by

10:16

looking just at ourselves, we're missing

10:18

a huge opportunity for doing something

10:20

meaningful. And most of that meaning

10:22

is created through conversation. It's when

10:24

I talk to someone else when

10:26

we connect with each other, when

10:28

we're on the same wavelength, that

10:30

is when we feel like we

10:33

can work together and trust each other. And

10:35

so I wanted to figure out, not only

10:37

can you improve yourself, how do you improve

10:39

teams and groups and communities, or

10:41

just one on one relationships because they're so

10:43

important. It's interesting. And I

10:46

love that aspect of kind of shifting

10:48

the, not completely, because we always want

10:50

to improve ourselves, but shifting the focus

10:52

off of how do I just improve

10:55

myself, but doing better communication as a

10:57

two-way street, as a send and receive.

11:00

Yeah. And this is one of the things.

11:02

So as I mentioned, like there's some people

11:04

who are consistent super communicators and they tend

11:06

to do a couple of things differently from

11:08

other people. One is that they tend to

11:10

ask many more questions, actually 10 to 20

11:12

times as many questions as the average

11:14

person. And some of those questions we hardly

11:17

even registered because they're like, how would you

11:19

think about that? Or, oh, what'd you say

11:21

next, right? Questions that kind of invite us

11:23

into the conversation. But some of the questions

11:26

they ask are deep questions. And deep questions

11:28

are really powerful because they create a sense

11:30

of trust between two people. And a deep

11:32

question, it sounds intimidating, but it's actually pretty

11:35

simple to do. Like if you meet someone who's

11:37

a lawyer, you can say to them like, oh,

11:39

what made you decide to go to law school?

11:42

What do you love about the law? Those are

11:44

both questions that ask someone who they really

11:46

are. And a deep question in general

11:48

asks us about our values, our beliefs,

11:50

our experiences. And once we get

11:52

into this habit and super communicators have of

11:54

asking a deep question, which is a pretty

11:56

easy thing to do, then suddenly what we

11:58

find is that people... They start saying things

12:00

that are meaningful and real. Sometimes they

12:03

say things that are vulnerable. And when

12:05

we engage in reciprocal vulnerability, when we

12:07

share something about ourselves, it's

12:09

hardwired into our brains to feel more trusting

12:11

of that person, to feel closer to them.

12:14

And that's really powerful. Yeah, when you

12:16

say deep questions, some people are like, ooh, I

12:18

don't know, I don't want people asking me deep

12:20

questions, or I don't want to make the air

12:22

in the room awkward by me asking a deep

12:24

question, but I think they don't understand exactly what

12:26

you mean by deep question. You gave some examples.

12:29

I think what they really need to understand

12:31

is, the goal is to get to something

12:33

deep, but really it's like a quick little

12:36

laser. Absolutely, the question itself doesn't actually appear

12:38

deep. What you're doing is instead of asking

12:40

someone about the facts of their life, you're

12:42

asking them how they feel about their life.

12:45

Because the truth of the matter is if I say, what do you do

12:47

for a living? And you say, I'm a lawyer. Well,

12:49

if I'm not a lawyer, like it's kind of a

12:51

conversational dead end. But if I then say a deep

12:53

question, it's easy to ask, you know,

12:56

when you were in law school, what was the best

12:58

thing you learned? Like what's the thing you find yourself

13:00

carrying from law school? Now

13:02

I'm asking you about how you

13:04

feel about things, how you felt about going to

13:06

law school, what you feel about like the challenges

13:08

of life and the opportunities. That's

13:10

a question that's fun to answer. And when

13:12

I do so, I reveal something meaningful about

13:14

myself, right? I create a platform where we

13:16

can actually connect. Yeah, one of

13:18

the secrets that I tell people, it's

13:21

not a secret anymore, is that when I'm

13:23

preparing as often as I can for a conversation

13:25

like this one, I will try to go

13:27

out and listen to shows that

13:29

they've been on previous to mine pretty recently,

13:31

so that I can kind of get a

13:34

cadence to their tone, hear their talking points

13:36

obviously. But also come up with

13:38

my own like follow-up questions that that host

13:40

didn't ask. And what you're doing in this

13:42

book is you framed it for me a

13:44

little bit differently. It's not about the follow-up

13:47

question, it's about the depth. It's getting to

13:49

that depth and I'll have that natural curiosity,

13:51

or at least I am in that moment

13:53

leading into that natural curiosity, which makes me

13:55

think of that Ted Lasso darts scene in

13:57

first season, I don't know if you... You've

14:00

seen it, right? Where you're playing darts with. Yeah. He

14:03

knows that. If anyone had ever

14:05

asked him, he would have said, oh, I actually played

14:07

darts every single week with my dad. Yeah. So

14:10

in the book, you know, the book is

14:12

built around stories, as you know. And one

14:14

of my favorite stories is the story of

14:16

the CIA officer, who's just terrible at recruiting

14:19

spies. Like honestly, one of the worst recruiters

14:21

in history. And he sort of

14:23

meets this one woman that he wants to recruit and

14:25

things aren't going well. And she says she never wants

14:27

to speak with him again. She convinces her

14:29

to have dinner one more time with him. And in

14:31

that conversation, he just kind of gives up. Instead

14:34

of trying to recruit her, instead of trying

14:36

to make an argument, he just says like

14:38

to himself, this isn't going to work. And

14:40

so he's just instead starts being honest, right?

14:42

He starts being authentic. He starts saying like,

14:44

I've wanted this job my whole life. And

14:46

it turns out I'm terrible at it. I've

14:48

been embarrassed so many times at how bad

14:50

I am. And he talks for only about

14:52

five or six minutes and she starts crying.

14:55

And he reaches across the table because he feels terrible,

14:57

like pat her on the arm. Says, look, I'm sorry,

14:59

I did not mean to make you cry. And she

15:01

says, no, no, I finally hear what you're

15:03

saying. I want to help you. I think

15:05

we can do something important together. And

15:07

that woman ends up becoming one of the best assets in

15:09

the Middle East over the next 20 years. But

15:12

the only reason this guy Jim Lawler

15:14

was able to recruit her was because

15:16

he was authentic himself. He

15:18

was honest with her. That's how we create trust.

15:21

And we can be authentic and honest

15:23

all the time, particularly when we reciprocate

15:25

someone's emotions. And we reciprocate their vulnerability

15:27

when we say, look, I

15:30

understand you feel worried and

15:32

disappointed in yourself. I feel that

15:35

way about myself too. That's how

15:37

we create trust and real bonding. Well,

15:39

I think that even the moment there where

15:41

they're both having different conversations and

15:44

then he switches to having

15:46

the right one and then that connects

15:48

with her and then they connect and

15:50

get on the same page. Within

15:53

psychology, that's known as the matching principle, right?

15:55

What the matching principle says is that you

15:57

and I have to be having the same

15:59

kind conversation. That's why me and my

16:02

wife kept on fighting with each other because I

16:04

was having an emotional conversation, she was having a

16:06

practical conversation. But as soon as you align, as

16:08

soon as you say to the person, okay, I'm

16:10

going to match you. And sometimes you could just

16:12

ask. Like now my wife asks me, do you

16:14

want me to solve this problem for you or do

16:16

you just need to vent and get this off your

16:19

chest? Once we align

16:21

with someone, then we're able

16:23

to move from different kind of conversation

16:25

to different kind of conversation together. And

16:27

there's actually a kind of cool technique that they

16:29

teach in schools to teachers, which is that when

16:32

a student's upset, you should ask them, do you

16:34

want to be helped? Do you want to

16:36

be hugged? Or do you want to be

16:38

heard? Which is of course

16:41

the practical the emotional and the social. And

16:43

when a student says, Oh, no, I

16:45

want you to hug me or I want you to help me,

16:47

or I just need to tell you what's going on. I want

16:50

you to hear what I'm saying. It

16:52

feels so good, right to like, be able to tell

16:54

the other person this is what I need from this

16:56

conversation. And it feels wonderful to them because they know

16:58

how to match you. Well, we've all

17:00

had or most of us have had

17:03

the experience of trying to teach or

17:05

help a kid when they really just

17:07

need the hug, right? And that's just

17:10

so frustrating as parents. And

17:12

it's frustrating for them too, because they just need

17:14

the hug. And you're just like, well, I see

17:16

you're frustrated with the I'll use tying your shoes

17:18

because that was both of my kids issues for

17:20

a very long time. They're both grown ish enough

17:22

now that that's not an issue. The

17:24

boy just wears Crocs all the time. So that's

17:26

all part of it. But again, it's signal to

17:28

noise. And it's getting to the same conversation. I

17:31

love that I love. Do you need help? Do

17:33

you need to be heard or do you need

17:35

a hug? Yeah. And

17:37

basically, what we're really it's just a quick

17:39

code for like, tell me what you want

17:41

out of this conversation. Right. And

17:43

let me tell you what I want out of

17:45

this conversation. Work to

17:47

there was a study that was done where some researchers

17:50

went into an investment bank. And this

17:52

was like a place where people fought with each

17:54

other all the time, like they were screaming arguments

17:56

constantly. And they said, Okay, for the next week,

17:58

we want to do this experiment, before you

18:00

go into a meeting, write down

18:02

your goal, just one sentence, write down

18:04

your goal for the meeting and

18:07

the mood that you hope to establish. So

18:10

people would write down things like, you know, I want us

18:12

to come up with a budget, but I want everyone to

18:14

be on board with it and happy with it. Or, you

18:16

know, I want to ask Maria if she wants to go

18:18

on a vacation with me, but I want to make it

18:20

easy for her to say no, because that's awkward otherwise. And

18:23

so everyone would do this before a meeting, they'd write it down.

18:26

Usually they just stuck it in their pocket. They didn't

18:28

even reference it, but the incidents of conflict in those

18:30

meetings went down 80%. And

18:33

the reason why is because people knew what they

18:35

wanted, and they could communicate it to others,

18:37

they were prepared to listen to others say what

18:40

they wanted in return. And this

18:42

is something that we know consistent super communicators

18:44

do, is they usually

18:46

take just like half a second, like

18:48

half an inch deeper thought to

18:51

figure out what they want out of a

18:53

conversation before they start that conversation. Because

18:56

that makes such a big difference, and it makes them

18:58

able to ask the other person, what

19:00

do you want and need? Yeah,

19:02

there's a phrase or a sequence of

19:04

words here, self-awareness is what I'm going

19:07

for here that gets mentioned on the

19:09

show a lot, because I think it's

19:11

just one of the super keys to

19:13

understanding that next step is taking that

19:15

pause moment and saying, you know, take

19:18

my pulse, literally or figuratively, and then

19:20

also check, you know, your

19:22

mind and your emotional state. Am

19:24

I tired? Am I, you know, and figuring out

19:27

all that out where I am, but then also,

19:29

okay, what do I next step want? And

19:31

that's what it seems to be like for me. Yeah,

19:33

no, I think that's exactly right. I

19:35

think that's exactly right is trying to

19:37

figure out and psychologists refer to this

19:40

as a quiet negotiation that happens at

19:42

the start of every conversation, right? Where

19:44

the goal is not to win the

19:46

argument, the goal is to get understanding.

19:48

Like I just want to know what

19:50

you want and what you need. Because

19:52

if I can figure that out, then there's

19:54

so much more. And another story in the

19:57

book is the story about this guy, Dr.

19:59

Bafar Adai, who's a surgeon in New York City,

20:01

and a cancer surgeon, and all these patients would

20:03

come in who were terrified because they just got

20:05

the cancer diagnosis, and you would basically tell them,

20:07

oh, you don't have to have surgery, right? Like

20:09

it's slow growing, we can just kind of wait

20:11

and see what happens. And they

20:13

would listen to him or appear to listen to him and

20:15

then they'd go home and then the next day they would

20:17

come in and they'd be like, nope, I want the surgery,

20:19

like definitely cut me open. And Dr. Adai was completely confused

20:21

by this, like why are these people keep asking me for

20:24

surgery when they tell them they don't need it? So

20:26

he went to these communication experts at Harvard Business

20:28

School and they told them, well, the mistake you're

20:30

making is you are assuming you know what they

20:32

want, but you need to ask a deep question.

20:34

You need to ask a question that allows them

20:36

to talk about their values and their beliefs and

20:38

their experiences. And the best way to do that,

20:41

again, because I'm going to ask you what you

20:43

feel about what you think of something rather than the

20:45

facts of something, is I'm just going to say at

20:48

the beginning of the conversation, say, what does this

20:50

diagnosis mean to you? So that's what

20:52

he started doing, started asking patients this basic question, what

20:55

does this diagnosis mean to you? And

20:57

they would say things, he expected them to talk

20:59

about medical issues or fears of pain. They

21:02

would say things like, my dad died when I was

21:04

young and I don't want to put my wife through

21:06

that or my kids are really worried and I want

21:08

to like remove their worry. They

21:10

wanted to have an emotional conversation and Dr. Adai

21:13

had no idea. But once he

21:15

learned to ask that question and listen, then

21:17

he could match them and talk to them

21:19

on their wavelength. And once they did, once

21:21

they were aligned that way, then

21:23

they could easily start going to the practical things

21:25

about what's the right course of treatment. And

21:28

the number of patients requesting unnecessary surgeries

21:30

went down 30% after he started doing

21:34

this. Just by asking a

21:36

simple question and then starting down that

21:38

path of that conversation with them where

21:40

they're both having the same conversation instead

21:42

of two different ones. Exactly.

21:46

Instead of assuming I know what you want, just

21:48

asking a question that lets you express it. So

21:51

deeper questions, does that work across all three

21:53

of those different types of conversations? In other

21:55

words, it gets what I'm saying is

21:57

it's probably deep questions to do that alignment, So

22:00

to speak I'm guessing that the type

22:02

of deep question changes or is it

22:05

universal? It's pretty much universal

22:07

because the truth of the matter is that you

22:09

know Often times when you ask a deep question

22:11

someone will say something that's a little bit emotional

22:13

in response or it will expose an emotion and that's

22:16

because emotions Influence every single

22:18

one of our conversations. It doesn't

22:20

matter if you're discussing budgets at

22:22

work There are emotions at

22:24

play that are shaping how people speak

22:26

and how they hear Right because

22:29

we might be talking about like what's the right

22:31

number for accounting next year but in the back

22:33

of people's mind is We might have

22:35

to do layoffs if we can't figure this out and

22:37

that's really scary like I might get laid off Or

22:39

I might have to lay off other people. I don't

22:42

like that And so oftentimes

22:44

when we ask a deep question what we find

22:46

is that somebody Somebody shares

22:48

something that's a little bit vulnerable with us

22:51

or a little bit revealing and

22:53

sometimes it's just practical right? Sometimes they say

22:55

like actually the thing I'm worried about

22:57

is you know column 5 doesn't line up with

22:59

column 7 and we got to figure Out a

23:01

reconciliation for that. Okay, that's not really an emotional

23:04

conversation That's a practical conversation, right? But

23:06

now you know they're in a practical frame of mind

23:08

like I should meet them there I should invite them

23:10

to meet me in a different frame of mind the

23:13

point being that the deep question It

23:16

reveals something and we should listen

23:18

to what it reveals and

23:20

go there I think what it reveals

23:22

is their adult version I'll say this that way

23:24

of the do you need help do you need

23:26

to be heard or do you need a hug?

23:28

But in an adult way, although there's nothing wrong

23:30

with adult hugs Yeah. Yeah, maybe

23:32

not in the workplace You're

23:36

exactly right that like one of

23:38

the things that super communicators do in addition

23:41

to asking a lot more questions and asking

23:43

deep questions Is they try and

23:45

work really hard to show the other person

23:47

that they want to connect with them? Because

23:49

showing that you want to connect is half

23:51

the battle Laughter is a great

23:53

example of this right about 80% of

23:55

the time when we laugh it is not in response

23:58

to something funny We laugh in

24:00

conversation conversations to show someone we like

24:02

them, that we want to connect with them, that we

24:04

feel comfortable with them. And they laugh back, which is

24:06

the most natural thing to do, to show us that

24:08

they feel the same way. And in

24:10

fact, once we become attuned to

24:13

learning how to look for

24:15

laughter and youth laughter, we can use

24:17

it as this real bridge. Another

24:19

story in the book is about

24:21

NASA and how NASA started testing

24:23

astronaut candidates by watching how

24:26

they laugh. And an interviewer would

24:28

walk into a room and he would spill papers

24:30

on accident, but actually on purpose. And then he

24:32

would kind of laugh up there and say, ha

24:34

ha ha ha. And

24:36

then pay close attention, did the candidate who

24:38

is there to interview, did they

24:40

laugh politely? Like, ha ha ha, that's funny. Or

24:43

did they go, ha ha ha, I'm sorry, like, let

24:45

me help you pick it up. When

24:48

people match each other's level

24:50

of nonverbal communication, when they

24:52

match each other's energy, they're

24:54

showing us that they want to connect with us. And

24:56

when they don't, they're sending a message

24:58

that like, I'm stepping back. Like I don't

25:00

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I mean

28:53

as you're saying that it hits me that

28:55

oftentimes when I'm doing these recordings and I

28:58

mean I guess I'm spilling everything here today

29:01

is that I will often put

29:03

myself on mute so as not to

29:05

talk over by accident the guest like

29:07

as you're talking I'm like I don't

29:09

want to accidentally cough or whatever so

29:11

there's a lot of practical reasons but

29:13

the other thing is then I'm almost

29:15

nodding way more and you can't tell

29:17

that I'm doing that right now unless

29:19

you can see me but I'm nodding

29:21

over emphasizing I'm on the same page

29:23

yes I understand what you're saying keep

29:25

going keep talking and that's kind of

29:27

the mildest version of laughter in a

29:30

sense it's affirmation yeah no that's absolutely

29:32

right and these nonverbal signals or you

29:34

know laughter is verbal but it's really

29:36

non-linguistic right it's the it's laughter it's

29:38

when somebody like describes something sad it's

29:40

sort of like you know frowning and

29:43

showing them that we like are listening

29:45

and that we hurt on their behalf

29:48

all of this are really important signals

29:50

to learn to pay attention to as

29:53

children we do it really really well in

29:55

fact basically from about six weeks of age

29:57

babies will mirror the physical emotion

29:59

emotions that they see. But what happens as

30:02

we get older is that we sort of

30:04

fall in love with words. Like it's so

30:06

easy to listen to language and think that

30:08

we understand things, that we stop

30:10

noticing nonverbal and non-linguistic communication. We ask someone

30:12

how you do it and they say, oh,

30:14

I'm fine. And we pay attention to their

30:16

words instead of the fact that like their

30:19

arms are crossed, their voice is down, they're

30:21

downcast. But the more that we

30:23

just remind ourselves, like, take in the whole picture,

30:25

pay attention to everything, the more

30:27

we'll actually figure out how to connect with this person. One

30:30

of the subsets of superpowers that super

30:32

communicators have is this skill of listening.

30:35

And it's not just about those nonverbal

30:37

and the tone and the what they

30:39

said, but what they really said on

30:42

the layer beneath that. Yeah,

30:44

that's exactly right. And it's really important.

30:46

You know, another thing that super communicators

30:48

do is that they prove to

30:50

you that they're listening. And the way that

30:52

they prove it is by voicing

30:54

that deeper layer. So there's this thing known

30:57

as looping for understanding that's particularly powerful when

30:59

we're in a conflict with someone, right? If

31:01

we have a disagreement, if we're fighting with

31:04

someone, there's a suspicion in the back of

31:06

our heads that this person isn't actually listening

31:08

to me, they're just waiting their turn to

31:10

speak. And so how do we

31:13

do that? How do we prove to someone

31:15

that we're listening to them? Well, the best

31:17

answer is what we do after they stop

31:19

speaking, because sometimes they don't notice if we're

31:21

nodding with them. They don't notice if we're

31:23

smiling, speaking in such a cognitively intense activity

31:25

that we don't pick up on what our

31:27

listeners are doing. But if when someone stops

31:29

talking, if you do this thing called looping

31:31

for understanding, which is step one, you ask

31:34

a question, preferably a deep question. Step

31:36

two is once they answer that question,

31:38

you repeat back in your own words

31:41

what you heard them say, right?

31:43

And oftentimes what you're doing is

31:45

you're actually saying that deeper layer

31:47

that you recognize and

31:49

that they recognize. And then step three, and

31:52

this is the one everyone forgets, is

31:54

you ask if you got it right. Because

31:56

if I ask if I got it right, not only am

31:58

I asking permission Listen to feel like

32:00

I understood them. But. Sometimes we don't

32:03

get it right, right? Sometimes we hear something and

32:05

we repeat it back to the person they said

32:07

and they said note Note: that's not it or

32:09

or I think you miss the important part of

32:11

that. We. Often get in

32:13

our own way when it comes to communicates.

32:16

The. And and looping for understanding. You know

32:18

they've done studies the like Harvard Law School

32:20

in Harvard Business School in Stanford. People.

32:23

Who use looping for understanding? It reduces

32:25

the now of tension in conversations. And

32:27

that's the men are misunderstanding them out

32:29

of conflict. By. Eighty percent.

32:32

It's. Just amazing What happens in a a

32:34

simple thing. You can get the habit

32:36

of saying what does your you say

32:38

as a determine even get this right

32:40

assistants and it is the part where

32:42

I step in and I say so

32:44

if I hear you Charles and we

32:46

are vague as rice is I guess

32:49

it's it's it's it's as well and

32:51

and so my in correct me if

32:53

I'm wrong. I think what you're saying

32:55

is what communication really is all about.

32:57

What super communicators really do is they're

32:59

constantly looking to a line on what

33:01

is this meaning this conversation, What. Is

33:03

this really all about which conversation

33:05

are we having and so they're paying

33:07

attention? They're looking for the the queues.

33:09

They're using their skills to listen,

33:11

but they're also looking and using those

33:14

skills to decipher up from the

33:16

other Rand what that person wants and

33:18

or needs and then meet them. That's

33:21

exactly right. and that's exactly what Super Communicators

33:23

The Book is about. His try and explain

33:25

these different kinds of conversations and how they

33:27

work and how to recognize them in the

33:29

skills that each of them rely on. And

33:31

this can sound really overwhelming when we discuss

33:33

it this way and abstract, but the true

33:36

the matter is. Our brains have

33:38

evolved to be good communication. Our brains

33:40

have evolved actually make this into habits

33:42

and instincts. If. You think about

33:44

it like communication is homo sapiens

33:46

superpower. Read. It's a thing that

33:49

has made us so successful as a

33:51

species has allowed us to build families

33:53

and communities and cultures. And so

33:55

our brains have evolved to be

33:58

really good communication. Know. That being said, But

34:00

we live in a very different world than

34:02

when our brain evolved, right? Like we communicate

34:04

in very different ways now, and so that's

34:06

one challenge. The second is that oftentimes we

34:09

forget to listen to those instincts, and

34:12

the way that we remind ourselves, the

34:14

way that we help ourselves rely on

34:16

what we already know is by learning

34:18

how these conversations work, learning how to

34:20

recognize the different kinds of conversations. So

34:22

that I know if you say something

34:24

emotional that like maybe I would have

34:26

missed previously, I now know if I

34:28

just ask you a follow-up question, we're

34:30

going to get to something deeper and

34:32

we're going to feel closer to each

34:34

other. That's not even

34:37

going into the fact that we're living in

34:39

a whole different world in terms of technology

34:41

and the pressure slash, pressure

34:43

is not the right word, probably just the difference

34:45

of dynamics and that there are so many different

34:47

versions of the dynamic now. Like

34:49

for example, right now you and I

34:52

are talking through Ecamm and we're using

34:54

these expensive microphones and also cameras

34:56

and yet we're not face-to-face and yet

34:58

we are and there's a cognitive dissonance

35:01

yet connection at the same time for

35:03

all of that, and then step into

35:05

texting and or voicemails and phone call,

35:08

long-distance phone calls where it's a detached

35:10

voice. And we don't think about how

35:12

strange all that is, but yet at

35:14

some point it was only handwritten notes

35:17

through the post office. All

35:19

of that's different these days. It gets into what

35:21

I found fascinating about communication theory, like I said

35:23

earlier. Yeah, you're exactly right and

35:25

it is fascinating. In the

35:28

book, I described this experiment where they

35:30

brought all these gun rights enthusiasts and

35:32

gun control activists together. And

35:35

the goal was not for them to convince each other, it was just

35:37

to see if they could have a civil conversation. And

35:39

they taught them looping for understanding and these

35:41

other techniques. And in fact, over

35:43

the weekend, face-to-face, they had these great conversations. Everyone

35:46

kind of walked away saying like, I haven't changed

35:48

my mind, but I feel like I just understand

35:50

the other side so much better now. And

35:53

then they created a Facebook group for them.

35:55

And within 45 minutes, people were calling

35:57

each other jackbooted Nazis. apart

36:00

immediately. And the reason

36:02

why is because it's easy to

36:04

forget that different channels of communication

36:07

require different skills. So the best

36:09

example of this is when telephones

36:11

first became popular about 100 years

36:13

ago, there were all these articles that said

36:16

people will never be able to have a real conversation

36:18

on the phone because they can't see each other. And

36:20

so it'll only be used like a telegram, like for

36:22

like, you know, stock trades and stuff like that. And

36:25

what's interesting is at the moment, they were right.

36:27

If you look at those transcripts from early

36:30

conversations, people couldn't connect with each other, they

36:32

couldn't have real conversations. But of course,

36:34

by the time you and I were a teenager, we could

36:36

talk on the phone for like seven hours alike

36:39

and feel incredibly close to the other person. And

36:41

it's because we had learned that talking on the

36:43

phone is different from talking face to face. And

36:45

we learned it so well, it'd become a habit,

36:48

we don't even think about anymore. Now,

36:50

we've only been online for like 20

36:52

or 25 years, right? And some forms

36:54

like texting is basically like 10 years

36:57

old. And so as a

36:59

result, a lot of the rules are

37:01

less instinctual. But once you

37:03

remind yourself like, listen, a text is

37:05

different from a tweet is different from

37:07

a email is different from a phone

37:09

call. Different rules apply in

37:11

each setting, then you get

37:14

much better at using those different channels

37:16

to connect with other people. And

37:18

some of that speaks out generational. But

37:20

some of that difference there between all

37:22

those different methods and modes is how

37:25

you learned what you learned to communicate with.

37:27

Like for example, I mean, there's the whole

37:29

like, Oh, no, I don't want anybody to

37:31

like just call me phone call out of

37:34

the blue. Personally, that's not me, I actually

37:36

sometimes would prefer you just call me. So

37:38

we can go back and forth quick. But

37:40

that's me not my daughter, my daughter, I'll

37:42

call her at college. And she'd be like,

37:44

Hello, like what do you want? Just text

37:46

me. My kids are the same

37:48

way, right? They send me texts with emojis in them.

37:50

Like it's there's no words. It's all just emojis. And

37:52

I'm like, What is this? What is this

37:55

mean? And they're like, No, no, this is how I

37:57

talk to my friends, right? Like there's a clearly a

37:59

message there. Like you just don't understand it. And

38:02

the truth of the matter is our

38:04

brains have evolved to be absolutely amazing

38:06

at adapting to different forms of communication.

38:09

But in order to allow that to happen,

38:12

we have to think just a half an inch

38:14

deeper before we open our mouth or before we

38:16

send that tweet or before we write that email.

38:18

We just have to say to ourselves, you know,

38:20

if we were face to face and I said

38:22

something sarcastic that hear the sarcasm in my voice,

38:24

but they're not going to hear the sarcasm when I type it

38:27

out. And so as a result, they might

38:29

take me seriously. Yeah. With the

38:31

sarcasm in a text base, like that's the

38:33

thing is it's almost like, gosh, it's almost

38:35

my mind is going through a flowchart inside

38:38

of my head where it's

38:40

like, if this, then that one, how

38:42

am I to what do I want

38:44

to communicate? Three, who is it for

38:46

which communication method is best for them?

38:49

And then, okay, how do I if I

38:51

want to convey sarcasm, like you were just

38:53

saying, how do I add that in textually

38:55

or emoji that they understand it comes across

38:57

and yeah, that's why I can feel like

38:59

a lot when we describe it this way. But

39:02

the truth is what happens is you start

39:04

writing a message to your friend, Jim, and you

39:07

know, instinctually, you know, like, oh, if I

39:09

make this little comment, and then I put

39:11

a winking emoji afterwards, he's going to know

39:14

I'm being sarcastic, right? Like our brains have

39:16

the ability to form these habits and instincts

39:18

that we don't have to think about it.

39:21

And really, all that it takes is learning

39:23

how this stuff works to let your brain

39:25

be free enough to figure it out. I

39:28

think the great thing about all of

39:30

this that you're talking about here is

39:32

it's cross relational, it's all about relationships,

39:35

but it's across all different types of

39:37

relationships, it's going to improve the one

39:39

to one, whether that's a spouse or

39:41

son, daughter, whatever, father, parent, etc. And

39:44

also the whole business world and like being

39:46

in groups, I think my one thing is,

39:49

like, let's throw this back into the business

39:51

world for a second and say, okay, we're

39:53

in a group meeting. How do you say

39:55

we apply some of this to best have

39:57

a great business meeting before it gets started? Yeah.

40:00

Okay. So the first thing that we should do

40:02

is this experiment I mentioned, like if everyone just

40:04

writes down and literally this takes like seven seconds,

40:06

if they just write down what they want out

40:08

of this meeting, then even if they don't

40:10

share it with each other and the mood that they hope to establish,

40:13

even if they don't share it with each other, they'll

40:15

have it in their own head. So actually

40:17

Amazon does this, right? Before each meeting, they

40:19

say, write down one sentence, what you hope

40:21

to get out of this meeting. They

40:23

don't share them with each other, but

40:26

that way everyone knows. That's the first

40:28

thing. The second thing is to remember

40:30

that the goal here is connection and

40:32

understanding. Oftentimes we go into

40:34

a conversation, particularly a team meeting,

40:36

and we think the job is

40:38

to convince people I'm right or

40:40

to convince people I'm smart or

40:43

to convince people that we're on the right path. And

40:46

there are times when that's called for,

40:48

but that's not a conversation. That's you

40:50

giving an inspiring speech. The goal of

40:53

a conversation is simply to understand what

40:55

each person at the table most wants

40:57

to say and to help

40:59

them understand you and each other. And

41:02

so one of the things that super communicators do

41:04

is that in addition to asking a lot of

41:06

questions and a lot of those questions are throwaway

41:08

questions like, you know, what'd you make of that?

41:10

Or what do you think about that? Inviting people

41:12

into the conversation. Another thing that

41:15

they do is they just repeat other

41:17

people's ideas because oftentimes

41:19

an idea will be out there and

41:21

we'll have heard it. And until we

41:23

hear a second person say it, we

41:25

don't fully absorb it. And so

41:28

super communicators become incredibly influential and

41:30

incredibly popular, not because they're

41:32

generating great ideas, not because they're generating solutions

41:34

themselves, but because they're listening so closely to

41:36

other people that when they hear something valuable,

41:38

they can say, you know, Jim just said

41:40

something really important. Like I want to just

41:42

like, you know, make sure we get that

41:44

up on the board. That's a really good

41:46

point. And now suddenly

41:48

Jim A feels fantastic. B,

41:51

other people really have heard Jim's

41:53

idea because that super communicator has

41:55

repeated it sometimes in ways that

41:57

are clear. And most importantly,

41:59

I've sent a signal to the room if you

42:01

have a good idea other people

42:03

will notice. So bring your

42:05

good ideas and that's really

42:08

powerful. In studies it shows

42:10

that supercommunicators are the most influential person

42:12

in the room without oftentimes anyone even

42:14

realizing how influential they are. That's

42:17

totally true. As you're saying that

42:19

you brought to mind another lesson that I

42:21

think connects perfectly here that I learned again

42:23

from one of my communication profs and he

42:26

gave us an assignment and he couched it in this he

42:28

said you're gonna come to class next time and

42:31

you're not gonna know if it's your turn yet or not

42:33

but all week I'm gonna call on you randomly and you're

42:35

gonna have to get up and you're gonna have to speak

42:37

on something instantly. You're not gonna be able

42:39

to prepare for it or anything and we were freaked out

42:41

and then he said I know you can do it and

42:43

here's why and he gave this example he said I was

42:45

sitting in a church service on a Sunday evening and

42:47

the guest preacher randomly wasn't gonna be able to

42:50

be there and so they called me up and

42:52

so what did I have to do well here's

42:54

what I did and he walked us through it

42:56

and he said and you've seen this example happened

42:58

probably in professional speakers you've

43:00

perhaps even used it yourself where you

43:02

get up and at the beginning you

43:04

don't start by making statements and proclaiming

43:07

things you ask questions of the audience

43:09

and you connect with them and you

43:11

find out where they're at and what

43:13

they want and who they are and

43:15

then suddenly they're drawing in to you

43:17

and then as you're doing that you're figuring

43:19

out oh well I know what I can say

43:21

now to one you're using up

43:23

time which is great but then two

43:25

then you really deliver something that's much

43:28

more honed towards that audience in that

43:30

moment at that time it's a really

43:32

really good point and in fact one

43:34

of the interesting things is if you

43:36

watch since we're in presidential candidate season

43:38

if you watch Trump and Biden speak

43:40

what you'll notice is that at the

43:42

beginning of their speeches they ask a

43:45

lot of questions now they're

43:47

kind of making arguments but they're posting them as

43:49

questions but the reason they do them as questions

43:51

is because they know this draws

43:53

us in once I start answering

43:55

that question whether it's out louder inside my

43:58

own head you and I are aligning And

44:01

it's worth talking about what actually happens when

44:03

we do that. So like within our brains.

44:06

One of the things that we've learned in the last

44:08

decade is that when we are having a deep conversation,

44:10

when we're having a real conversation with someone, it's

44:13

reflected in our bodies and our brains. Like right

44:15

now, even though we're not aware of this and

44:17

we're separated by thousands of miles, the pupils of

44:19

our eyes are dilating at similar rates. Our

44:22

breathing patterns are starting to match each other. Our heart

44:25

rates are starting to match each other. And

44:27

most importantly, if we could see inside our heads,

44:29

what we would see is that our neurological activity

44:31

is becoming more and more similar. This

44:34

is known within neurology as

44:36

neural entrainment. And when

44:38

you think about it, this is the goal of communication,

44:40

right? That I can describe an emotion or I can

44:42

describe an idea and you don't

44:44

just listen, you experience that emotion. You

44:46

experience that idea. It becomes

44:49

your idea. Our brains become

44:51

alike because we're feeling and thinking the

44:53

same things. And it's at that

44:55

moment that we can really understand each other. And

44:58

more importantly, that we feel connected. We

45:00

trust each other. We want to work

45:02

together. We like each other more. That's

45:05

what has helped our species survive. Yeah,

45:08

we can get along, but we can do

45:10

more than that. We can actually work towards

45:12

a common goal together, whether that's personal or

45:14

it's professional. That's

45:16

exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah. On

45:19

the back of the book, it actually, I'm going

45:21

to lift it up here. It says, the right

45:24

conversation at the right moment can change everything. And

45:26

I'm really hoping that this one was that for

45:28

somebody listening in right now. Me too. I'd

45:31

love to point people to where the book is out now.

45:33

This is dropping right as the book's coming out. And I

45:35

would love to point people to where they can dive in

45:37

a little bit more, find out more about you and even

45:40

your past books because they align perfectly with

45:42

this one. Oh, thank you. And the thing

45:44

I will say is that anyone can become

45:46

a super communicator. Like this is not something you're

45:48

born with. This is not something you have to

45:50

be super slick or polished to do. Literally

45:54

anyone can learn these skills and

45:56

make them into intuitions. And

45:58

so yeah, to answer your question, thank

46:00

you for asking. it is, you know,

46:02

the books available wherever you buy books.

46:04

So Amazon and Barnes and Noble, but

46:06

also your local bookstore will have it

46:08

in stock. And if you want to

46:10

learn more about me, if you just

46:12

Google, I'm the only Charles Duhigg on

46:14

earth, because it's a weird last name,

46:16

D-U-H-I-G-G. And so, so if you Google

46:18

me, or you Google the power of

46:20

habit, or you Google super communicators, I'll

46:22

come up. And on my website, I

46:24

actually list my email address. Because I

46:26

believe like, again, this is about communication,

46:28

this is about connection. And so

46:31

anyone who sends me an email, I can promise

46:33

you, I will read that email and I will

46:35

reply to it. It might take me a couple

46:37

of days or a week, but I'll definitely, definitely

46:40

engage with you. Because I think that connecting with

46:42

other people is really important. It's the thing that

46:44

makes us successful and healthy

46:46

and happy. That's a bold move that to

46:48

put that out there like that. We've already sent 21,000 or 27,000 emails.

46:50

It's like a lot of emails. But like, it's easier

46:56

than you think it is. That's awesome. Charles, I can't

46:59

wait to see what you do next. I'm loving this.

47:01

I am going to be continuing to

47:03

dig through and piece this out a little

47:05

bit more and apply it more consciously self-awareness

47:07

wise as I'm, I mean, I can already

47:09

tell I kind of felt like, you know,

47:11

I had a much more connective conversation with

47:13

you. This is the first one that I've

47:15

had after reading this book. So, I think

47:17

there's a lot of good to be done

47:19

with this. So, thank you so much. Oh,

47:22

thank you so much. Thank you for having me

47:24

on and this has just been wonderful. I really

47:26

appreciate it. And I hope you and anyone who's

47:28

listening tells me about the great conversations they have.

47:32

Well, that's another podcast, Cross Off Your

47:35

Listening To-Do List. I hope that you

47:37

enjoyed and resonated and that this connected

47:39

with you, the topic, the method, all

47:41

of it, that this conversation has won

47:43

you over because I'm holding my book

47:46

here right now and I'm going to

47:48

be going through this again, but

47:50

a little bit deeper, doing the homework,

47:52

if you will, because I really know

47:55

that communication is key. Honestly, even with

47:57

ourselves, we talk about self-awareness all the

47:59

time. time on this podcast. Well, some

48:01

of the communication that you do with

48:04

yourself, which conversation are you having with

48:06

yourself is a great question. Do

48:08

I need to hear myself? Do I need to

48:10

hug myself or do I need to help myself

48:13

is a way that we could

48:15

maybe frame that. So again, I

48:17

hope that you're coming away from

48:19

this conversation with some really great

48:21

thought provoking nudge towards bettering your

48:23

communication, becoming a super communicator. That's

48:26

my goal for you, from me

48:28

for the show. And if I

48:30

did, or at least if I'm

48:32

getting there, and you found something

48:34

worthwhile in this episode, I would love for

48:36

you to do me the favor of sharing

48:38

this with somebody you know needs to hear

48:40

it. You can do that by hitting the

48:43

share button wherever you're listening to this or

48:45

heading on over to the show notes where

48:47

you can find the link to the book

48:49

at beyond the to do list.com. Thank you

48:51

again for sharing. Thank you for listening, and

48:54

I'll see you next episode. Transcribed

49:28

by