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on all audio elements. Hello

0:46

and welcome back to another episode of

0:49

Beyond the To-Do List. I'm your host,

0:51

Eric Fisher, and this is the show

0:53

where I talk to the people behind

0:55

the productivity. This week I'm excited to

0:57

share with you a conversation I had

0:59

with Josephine Campbell. She's the author of

1:01

the book Power Barometer, How to Manage

1:03

Personal Energy for Business Success. And

1:06

in this conversation we're going to talk

1:08

about managing personal energy and the crucial

1:11

role that it has in

1:13

managing the success that you're going

1:15

to have, both individually and within

1:18

teams. Josephine emphasizes the

1:20

importance of addressing personal energy and

1:22

the awareness of that and the

1:24

impact it has on identifying roadblocks

1:26

and issues that are coming up

1:28

against you. We talk about the

1:30

Power Barometer, how to check in

1:32

at meetings with yourself as well

1:34

as teams as to where your

1:36

energy level lies and how to

1:38

accommodate that. Enabling individuals

1:41

and team members to share

1:43

your personal energy levels for

1:45

better decision making, the significance

1:47

of mental energy and traditional

1:49

time management strategies, how those cross

1:52

over together, and especially how

1:54

to work together to

1:56

normalize the awareness matrix.

2:00

when it comes to not only

2:02

our energy levels but practices and

2:04

putting best practices into practice in

2:07

order to not just monitor and be

2:09

aware but actually do something about choosing

2:11

which work is the right work to

2:13

do at which energy levels

2:15

you're at. So I'm gonna get out

2:17

of the way and just say enjoy

2:20

this conversation with Josephine Campbell. Well

2:24

this week it is my privilege

2:26

to welcome to the show Josephine

2:28

Campbell. Josephine, welcome to Beyond the

2:30

To-Do List. Thank you very much,

2:32

Eric. It's great to be here. I

2:35

am so glad to have you and

2:37

I'm really interested and excited to be

2:39

talking about something. I don't think we've

2:42

talked about this enough when it comes

2:44

to productivity. You have a brand new

2:46

book out called Power Barometer, How to

2:48

Manage Personal Energy for Business Success and

2:51

you know being around in the productivity

2:53

space for a while and the show

2:55

being out for a long while. I've

2:58

often heard people try to throw new

3:00

phrases into the vernacular like they'll say

3:02

productivity is more about time management

3:04

than task management. I've also heard

3:06

things like productivity is about energy

3:09

management not time management like they

3:11

try to interchange all these things

3:13

and that one I think is

3:15

particularly applicable here, energy management because

3:17

that's what we're talking about. We're

3:19

talking about your book Power Barometer

3:21

and I'm curious have you had people

3:24

come up to you and say well

3:26

how does a power barometer differ

3:29

from say a traditional time

3:31

management strategy? How do you

3:33

see the real difference here

3:35

when people are like wait

3:37

power energy what does that have to do

3:39

with productivity? I'm like well it couldn't be

3:41

more obvious and to you as well but

3:43

to them what do you say to them?

3:45

Yeah I draw the scope triangle

3:48

to them time, money,

3:51

quality. So my

3:53

experience is that most managers whether

3:55

they're people managers or product

3:58

managers or project managers everybody,

4:01

consciously or unconsciously, think

4:03

within this scope of time,

4:06

quality, and resources.

4:08

And let's just call it money because at the end of the

4:10

day, that's what they're thinking about, right? Or what we

4:13

are thinking about. And that's

4:15

the fourth dimension missing here because the

4:17

scope triangle origins from

4:19

the time where the

4:21

world was far more mechanical, the

4:24

world where innovation such as

4:26

the assembly line made a difference.

4:29

And now we are at a

4:31

different stage in history. We

4:34

are at different stage in

4:36

human progression. And if you

4:38

look at most companies, even if you look at

4:40

their accountings, what is creating

4:42

value? What is their biggest assets?

4:45

And what is their biggest cost?

4:47

It's people. It's brain power.

4:50

So when the most valuable

4:53

asset is people,

4:55

people's brains, and the brain

4:57

runs on personal energy, it actually

4:59

consumes 20% of your personal energy, 20%

5:03

is a lot, then

5:05

it confides logic not

5:07

to encounter personal energy

5:10

within the scope of

5:12

thinking, prioritization, and making

5:14

decisions. I'm curious with

5:16

your background, what led you to

5:19

this? Obviously, we all kind of

5:21

have this feeling overall about our

5:23

own personal energy. If we have

5:25

any level of self-awareness, we

5:27

know, oh, I'm hungry. Oh, I'm

5:30

tired. You know, we've got some

5:32

of those baseline, you know, broad

5:34

stroke type things like I need

5:36

sleep, I need food, I need

5:38

to use the restroom. We've got

5:40

physical awareness of different things

5:42

like that. But I'm curious, how did you

5:44

come across this kind of cross section or

5:46

Venn diagram, because I like mentioning those all

5:48

the time, of energy and success when it

5:51

comes to business and just everyday life? Yeah,

5:54

so I used to be quadruple

5:56

national champion in jujitsu.

5:59

And today, I'm an executive coach.

6:02

I'm also a leadership development consultant.

6:04

So I work with leaders. I

6:06

help and support leaders in

6:09

becoming even better leaders and solving problems

6:11

and dealing with whatever is in the

6:13

way. And I

6:15

realized in my practice that some of

6:17

the tools that I have from my

6:20

jujitsu practice made a lot

6:22

of sense and created a lot of

6:24

value. It really, really changes a lot

6:27

of things once you start managing personal

6:29

energy. So some of the tools

6:31

I converted into business life. For

6:34

people who don't have a clear understanding

6:36

of some of the like, you know,

6:38

we know karate kid, we know kung

6:40

fu. Jujitsu is just

6:42

another one of those martial arts, so

6:44

to speak. What are

6:46

the specifics of jujitsu and what are some of

6:49

those lessons that you took from that or those

6:51

principles that are now leading when

6:53

it comes to success and leadership and the

6:55

power barometer? Yes, jujitsu

6:58

varies from kung fu or

7:00

the type of karate that

7:02

they practice in karate kit

7:04

from also having more judo

7:06

in it. Judo is actually

7:09

extracted from jujitsu. So

7:11

you also throw people, you have the karate

7:13

part of it, but then you also throw

7:15

people, you have locks, you have this whole

7:17

wrestling part of the fight as well. But

7:20

actually, it doesn't matter whether I

7:22

was doing jujitsu or karate or

7:24

kung fu because what I'm bringing

7:26

to the business world from

7:29

Japanese or East Asian

7:32

martial arts, I could probably

7:34

also have brought that from kung fu or

7:36

shodokan karate or some other type

7:39

of East Asian martial arts. So

7:41

it's the awareness of

7:44

what happens within you and

7:46

around you. Do you remember in karate kit,

7:48

you have to do all these exercises that

7:50

Mr. Miyaki gives him wax on, wax off

7:52

and he has to stand on a pole

7:54

and do all sorts of exercises that one

7:57

could think, oh, what does that have to

7:59

do with fighting? Did you

8:01

watch the movie? Yes, very much a fan, especially

8:03

because there's a more recent Netflix TV show that

8:05

my kids and I very much enjoy. Great.

8:08

So those exercises

8:11

and any other mental training exercise

8:14

you do in East Asian martial

8:16

arts is essential to your performance.

8:19

And when you are in a battle, it's

8:22

an enormous amount of energy

8:24

you have to use during a fight,

8:26

but it's also an enormous amount of

8:28

energy you need to spend on being

8:30

afraid and being in what I call

8:33

the red zone where you are mentally

8:35

hijacked if you don't know how to control

8:37

that. And if you are

8:39

in what I call the red zone, you

8:42

are not capable of seeing what's

8:44

coming behind you or what's

8:46

coming next in the darkness because

8:49

that is necessary to win a

8:51

battle, but it's also necessary in

8:54

modern business life. You

8:56

have to stay in the green zone, have to

8:58

know what's coming behind, you have

9:01

to know what's coming next even though it's dark

9:03

and there's a lot of uncertainty. You

9:05

just know that something's going to hit

9:07

you at some point if you're not very

9:10

aware and mentally

9:12

agile. So you're talking

9:14

a little bit here about red zone, green zone. Obviously

9:17

some people, they see that's on the cover.

9:19

People have got this spectrum and they're thinking,

9:21

oh, my energy levels, but I mean it's

9:23

much more, I don't want to call it

9:25

complicated, but it's much more involved or deeper.

9:27

There's more depth to it, I guess is

9:29

a better way to put it than just

9:32

red means danger and green means go. There's

9:34

a lot more depth to it. Yes,

9:37

that's true. So the

9:39

model that I'm structuring the book

9:41

around is a matrix and it

9:43

has two axes. The

9:46

vertical axis is personal energy and

9:49

the horizontal axis is

9:51

your cognitive capabilities, whether you

9:53

are ready or hijacked.

9:56

When you're hijacked, your brain becomes a

9:58

little bit more advanced. comes like

10:00

an autopilot. It's in reaction mode.

10:03

It's just trying to survive and

10:06

this sounds very dramatic but

10:08

really it happens to all of

10:10

us many times during a day. It

10:12

can be very subtle. Like in

10:14

my case, I hate being late. I like to be

10:16

on time. So if I feel like

10:18

I don't have enough time that I might

10:20

be late, I can potentially get hijacked. I

10:23

can be driving on the highway and I

10:25

can miss the exit because I'm in

10:27

the red zone and then of course,

10:29

it's really stupid isn't it? But that's

10:31

what happens to all of us

10:33

and that's because the brain is

10:35

designed to maximize our energy use

10:38

and your brain is also designed

10:40

to keep you alive. So

10:42

as soon as the brain thinks that you

10:44

might be in some kind of danger

10:47

or you need to preserve your

10:49

energy, it's going to push you into

10:51

your red zone. We have many

10:53

different behaviors when we're in the red zone. We

10:55

can fight, we can flight and

10:58

we can freeze. In modern

11:00

business life, it's not about

11:02

punching each other but it's about speaking

11:05

a bit harshly, not saying

11:07

thank you. It can be about

11:09

not speaking up. Do you know these situations

11:11

where someone comes at you and you're in

11:13

an uncomfortable situation and afterwards you're thinking, oh

11:15

my God, why didn't I say anything? But

11:18

it's because you've been mentally hijacked so your

11:20

brain is not capable

11:22

of speaking up because your

11:24

default is freezing and keeping

11:27

quiet in these moments. And

11:29

then of course, we want to be what I call ready because

11:31

when you're ready, you have your

11:34

freedom and your awareness to

11:36

bring about the most appropriate response to

11:38

the situations that you can think of

11:40

and you can think much faster. You

11:42

can see things from different perspectives. You

11:45

might even be able to sense what's

11:48

coming from behind and

11:50

what's coming next. So that's the

11:52

horizontal axis and then you have the personal

11:54

energy on the vertical

11:56

axis and that can be high and

11:58

it can be low. High energy

12:00

doesn't mean that you're accelerated and you're

12:03

speaking very fast and you're all like,

12:05

high energy can be very calm.

12:09

High energy is just that you have enough for whatever

12:11

you want to do. It's almost

12:13

like a gas tank. Your tank is full, in

12:15

other words. Exactly. And

12:18

on this matrix, it's almost like the, I'm going

12:20

to probably butcher it, but the Eisenhower Matrix, where

12:22

I think we've talked about that recently, even where

12:24

it's urgent and important, where it's like some things

12:26

are urgent and important, some things are urgent but

12:28

not important. I'm not going to go through all

12:31

four of them, but you get the gist. Yeah,

12:33

I love that matrix. It's a great one. Let's

12:36

talk about what it looks like and

12:38

feels like to be in each of

12:40

those four corners. Can you explain

12:43

like what state we're in and how that works and

12:45

what it's like to be there? Yes.

12:48

So each corner, each

12:51

quadrant represents a mental

12:53

state of mind. And there

12:55

are many more mental stages of

12:58

mind than four, but I've picked

13:00

those four because they're representative in

13:03

relation to whether you're radiant high job

13:06

and whether you have high energy

13:08

or low energy. So in

13:10

the upper right corner, in

13:13

the green zone, you have mentally

13:15

agile. That's where we want to be. You

13:18

picture Karate Kid at the big battle at

13:20

the end of the old movie, and

13:23

at that point, he is mentally

13:25

agile. He's super fit. He's trained

13:27

not just his techniques and his

13:29

body, but also his mind, his

13:32

inner self. So he can

13:34

sense what goes on within him. So

13:36

he can manage his emotion, his state

13:38

of mind, his energy level, and

13:40

he can also sense what's happening behind

13:43

him, around him. That's mentally

13:46

agile. Then below mentally agile, in

13:48

the green zone, you have mellow.

13:50

When you are mellow, you still ready,

13:52

you still have a clear mind, but

13:55

you are low on energy. You know, that

13:57

does happen sometimes that we spend our energy.

14:00

You know, sometimes at night, I'm

14:02

mano, not full of energy, but

14:05

I still have a clear mind. If I'm

14:07

peacefully sitting in my couch and having a

14:09

good time, it can be absolutely

14:11

wonderful. There's nothing wrong about having low energy

14:13

at the end of the day. And

14:16

then on the other side of the

14:18

vertical axis, you have the red

14:20

zone. The upper quadrants,

14:22

you have what I call narrow.

14:25

And narrow is what often is

14:27

being interpreted as being full of

14:29

lists. We have to really,

14:31

really watch out for this state of

14:34

mind because very often in business life,

14:36

especially if it's like this big squared

14:38

guy, it's being celebrated that he's just

14:40

full of lists. And he doesn't

14:42

listen or she, this person doesn't

14:44

listen what other people are saying. This

14:46

person only have on

14:48

his or her mind what he

14:51

or her is thinking

14:53

about. So we all get

14:55

to that state of mind sometimes and then we just see

14:57

what's in front of us, what we want to do. And

15:00

if somebody else has a comment

15:02

or a different suggestion, it feels

15:05

almost annoying. You

15:07

just want to get there. You have a

15:09

tunnel vision and your ears doesn't work so

15:11

well. Sometimes they create some

15:13

problems when collaborating or leading others. And

15:17

then below that quadrant, we

15:19

have fragile. And I don't

15:21

want anybody to be there. I'm really, really doing

15:23

everything I can in my own life not to

15:25

go there at all. But

15:28

the reality is that there are millions

15:31

of people living and working

15:33

there in that

15:35

quadrant, having that state of mind day in

15:37

and day out for years. And

15:39

they break down at some point. So

15:42

people that we know who have been

15:44

suffering from severe stress, often they've been

15:46

mentally in that quadrant most of the

15:48

time for years and it happens too

15:50

often. Now it seems

15:52

to me that, and correct me if I'm

15:55

wrong, because I'm trying to make sure that

15:57

those that are listening understand this, it seems

15:59

like The trouble doesn't necessarily

16:01

come in between having

16:04

higher low energy per se

16:06

as much as it does

16:09

being in the red zone more than

16:11

the green zone. Is that an accurate

16:14

interpretation? Yes and no. What

16:16

I'm trying to avoid is to be in the

16:19

red zone. Because when you're

16:21

in the red zone, you're not productive. You're

16:23

spending a lot of energy. You're not doing your

16:25

best work. You will not come

16:28

up with great new ideas or solutions. You will

16:30

not be able to hear what other people are

16:32

saying. You might be able to

16:34

push the ball that you are fixed on a little

16:37

further. But it's not really quality

16:39

work. So when you're

16:41

low on energy, you're more vulnerable to

16:43

get hijacked. Of

16:45

course, you can be more productive when you're high

16:47

on energy than low on energy. So

16:50

I'm really, really trying to manage my

16:52

energy to have high energy most of

16:54

the day. And then what happens

16:56

is that throughout a day, no

16:58

matter how high our energy is, we do

17:01

have circles of energy, rest

17:03

activity cycles. So

17:06

trying to acknowledge them

17:08

a little bit, having a

17:10

few breaks when you are in

17:13

the low end of the cycle will

17:15

support your energy level all over

17:17

the day. So at

17:19

the end of the day, you would have had more energy

17:21

and you would have been more productive if

17:24

we remember to

17:26

respect those circles ups

17:29

and downs and take a few pulses.

17:31

And we have a lot of research that

17:33

backs up the value

17:36

and the increased productivity and taking breaks.

17:38

You probably also had someone else on

17:40

the show talking about this, I can imagine.

17:43

Yes. Yeah, we've talked about

17:45

taking breaks often. Yeah, because

17:47

it does increase productivity and it's

17:49

basically also because it's personal energy

17:51

management. Think

17:53

about some of those famous business partners

17:56

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17:58

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your leadership skills today. Hey,

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so I wanted to give a report.

20:49

I have gotten my treadmill for my

20:51

uplift desk. I told you I was

20:54

gonna share my experience with that and

20:56

well, I'm easing into it. I've already

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Been doing that for five years now.

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I love my uplift desk, but I'm

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now to be able to get that

21:12

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21:14

Because if you're sitting around all day

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21:23

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entire order with promo code beyond. This

22:12

was something that we were, my wife and I were trying to

22:14

talk to our daughter who is

22:16

in her first semester of college and

22:19

she was home on Thanksgiving break and had

22:21

some work because it's a dual program. So

22:24

even though classes were done in one place,

22:26

there were still some residual online work and

22:29

she was not managing her time or

22:31

especially her energy well. She was sitting

22:34

for hours at a time at a desk

22:36

working on work that she needed to turn

22:38

in before the end of the weekend. And

22:41

I just kept telling her, you need to take

22:43

a break. You need to take a break. Instead

22:45

of going up and to the right, you are

22:47

going down and to the right. The entire time

22:49

you're sitting, you're becoming less, I want

22:51

to say, functional is what I, I don't think that's

22:53

what I said. But in other words, your brain is

22:55

leaking. You're sitting here doing the work and I applaud

22:57

your focus. But if

22:59

you don't get up and take a break and move around

23:02

and either go, I don't want to say it too loud,

23:04

go walk the dog or go get

23:06

up and refresh yourself and

23:09

recharge, you're pouring good minutes

23:11

after bad minutes. I think

23:13

I kind of got through to her finally when I explained,

23:15

you know, if you have a certain amount of time that

23:17

you know it's going to take you to do all of

23:19

it, you can either sit here that

23:21

entire time and it'll take you longer than

23:23

that because as you get going, you'll have

23:25

less energy and you'll get to the end

23:27

and you'll have wasted two, three extra hours

23:30

just sitting there or you break

23:32

it in half or thirds or fourths

23:34

and you do little chunks and then get up and

23:37

move around and then sit back down and it's still

23:39

going to take you a little longer, but hours less

23:41

than you just sitting here the whole time. Very

23:44

true. It's a really good example,

23:46

Eric. It's a very

23:48

good example, but it's an example

23:50

on an individual level and really

23:52

in my book, I focus on

23:55

what happens in a meeting, in

23:57

teams, in groups, at work. Because

24:00

I do think there's already been written a lot

24:02

of books on what can I do for myself

24:05

and manage my sleep and I can go for

24:07

a walk and all that. That's been covered already

24:10

but what I was missing in the

24:12

literature is what do I

24:14

do as a manager

24:17

to manage personal energy in

24:19

my team with my colleagues

24:21

in the meetings. We

24:24

all know the feeling of leaving a meeting

24:26

completely drained and we all know how unproductive

24:28

that is. What

24:30

do you do about that? That is

24:32

what I've been writing about and that has

24:35

my big interest because I

24:37

find that there are so many managers

24:39

out there to whom this

24:41

resonates and they just want to get started.

24:44

I hear them asking the question, okay how?

24:46

How do we get started? And I think

24:49

they're also thinking especially because over

24:51

the course of the last few years we've

24:54

had added in extra

24:56

dimensions of remote

24:58

work which changes

25:00

the way, like right now we're

25:02

talking through Ecamm as we record

25:04

this conversation for the

25:06

podcast and we're

25:08

not physically present in the

25:10

same space so it changes

25:12

that dynamic and if you're

25:14

working digitally and remotely energy

25:16

levels can be even more

25:18

tricky that way. Yeah,

25:21

it's consuming more energy to

25:23

work remotely or

25:25

hybrid than in person. It

25:28

does. The screen does

25:30

somehow eat some of our energy. I

25:33

don't know how but I know that when

25:35

we track it because we have a heart

25:37

viability rate monitor that we can use to

25:39

track personal energy throughout the day and

25:41

we can see there's a difference

25:44

between teams meeting and in-person meetings and

25:46

of course it depends on who you're meeting

25:48

with, are you introvert, are you extrovert and

25:50

what is the meeting about and so on

25:52

but meetings who otherwise would

25:54

be in the green zone

25:56

and pleasant if they were in person

25:58

can sometimes have more red

26:00

zone activity on a screen. And I think

26:02

it's because it's more exhausting for people to

26:05

sit in front of a screen all day.

26:08

Definitely. Yeah. And again, that's another

26:10

reason why you go to

26:12

some of that other literature and you

26:14

take breaks and you figure out how

26:16

to integrate those with not

26:18

just time, but space and selection of

26:20

activity. But there are people out there

26:23

leading teams or part of teams and

26:26

the collective energy is

26:28

where your expertise really lies. There's

26:30

leaders out there and there's

26:32

individuals too who are part of teams. They're

26:35

all asking right now, okay, how

26:37

do we get started with

26:39

protecting slash working with

26:43

others and that ebb and

26:45

flow and the awareness matrix? Yes.

26:48

So the reason why I'm calling it

26:50

the awareness matrix is because the key

26:52

is to be aware. That is

26:54

the first step. So having

26:57

conversations about personal

26:59

energy, legitimizing

27:02

that it's a valid factor and

27:04

sharing your energy levels, which

27:07

we can quantify is a very,

27:09

very good first step. So

27:11

then once you are aware of

27:14

what your energy level is, then

27:17

you got to take responsibility for it.

27:20

So, you know, we all know people who

27:22

give energy and we know people who drains

27:24

us and sometimes it can be the same

27:26

person doing one thing or the other. But

27:28

if everybody are responsible

27:30

for how they contribute to

27:33

the energy at the meeting or

27:35

in the collaboration and if it becomes

27:37

a norm, we will

27:39

see completely different behaviors than

27:42

what we are seeing many places today. So

27:45

you got to take responsibility for it and then you

27:47

got to act on it. So

27:49

it sounds very simple, right?

27:51

Awareness, responsibility and then act.

27:54

That's the one, two, three. But in

27:57

reality, it's both very,

27:59

very good. very efficient, it's going to

28:01

increase productivity and it's

28:04

going to solve a lot of

28:06

problems. But it's also going deep

28:08

somehow because when you start talking

28:10

about personal energy, when you

28:12

start sharing what really

28:14

drains you, you will

28:17

address the real roadblocks, the

28:19

real issues, the real elephants

28:21

in the room. So

28:23

in that sense, you'll be

28:25

confronted with the tough truth. And

28:28

that's hard for people to deal with,

28:30

honestly. They're either not practiced in having

28:33

enough awareness to begin with, like I

28:35

was talking about earlier, oh, they have

28:37

this just blanket statement of, I

28:40

am aware I am tired, or I am

28:42

aware I am hungry, or those

28:44

kinds of things, but they don't know how

28:47

to deal with it in a nuanced kind of a

28:49

way. Yeah, but I find

28:51

that as soon as we

28:53

start having the conversation, can I do a lot

28:55

of workshops on this with leaders, with teams, but

28:58

also just yesterday I did

29:00

a workshop with department leaders from

29:02

big firm, from different

29:05

departments, but all on the same level. And

29:07

as soon as we start having these

29:09

conversations, they can quickly find low hanging

29:12

fruits. And then what we

29:14

actually spend a lot of time on

29:16

is sharing those ideas that

29:18

they get, because I want the ideas to come

29:20

from them. I can inspire, but I know at

29:22

the end of the day, people are not going

29:25

to do something that someone external came and told

29:27

them to do. They're going to do what they

29:29

came up with. So I'm doing

29:31

exercises with them for them to come

29:33

up with something that makes sense to

29:35

them. And also because they're the experts

29:37

on their everyday life. No

29:40

matter how smart you are, you cannot come from

29:43

the outside and know more about their everyday

29:45

life than they do themselves. I'm

29:47

a coach, so I'm coaching people, groups to

29:49

come up with great ideas, things that they

29:51

can actually do, share them, and

29:54

then find support systems of ways

29:56

to stay engaged, because people

29:59

tend to be very engaged. engaged at the workshops,

30:01

but we know from science that

30:04

if you do leadership development activities, quite often people

30:06

forget it and they go back to the same

30:09

old, same old. So maybe that's what you mean

30:11

about that people don't know what to do about

30:13

it or how to change it. It's easy

30:15

to stay in the same pattern.

30:18

So I'm always trying to encourage

30:20

and find ways and create new

30:22

systems that people start supporting each

30:24

other, start collaborating about it, for

30:27

it to become a norm, a norm

30:29

within the company, within the team, wherever

30:32

we're working because once it becomes a

30:34

norm and you start reminding each other

30:36

about it, then it's

30:38

easier to go down and get that sandwich

30:40

for lunch or take those five

30:42

minutes break and speak to each

30:44

other in a way that is not taking the energy

30:46

out of the room. It

30:48

actually really varies from company to company,

30:51

from team to team, but it's taking

30:53

people's energy. Yeah, this is

30:55

why I like this because it's not all

30:57

about, like you said before, it's not all

31:00

about the individual per se. This is a

31:02

culture of a business, a way

31:04

of addressing energy levels. Really,

31:07

one, it's normalizing awareness of

31:09

it, it's normalizing then talking

31:11

about it and then it's normalizing cultural

31:13

practices at the organization that allow you,

31:16

like you were just giving the example

31:18

of, is how do we have or

31:20

how do we hold a meeting, have

31:23

a gathering of whatever the goal

31:25

of that meeting is for, how do

31:27

we facilitate that while not all draining

31:29

each other as we have that? A

31:31

lot of people are like, wait, you

31:34

can have a non-draining meeting, that's possible?

31:36

Actually, let's talk about that specifically for a second.

31:38

How do we have non-draining meetings? What

31:41

are some of the best practices that

31:43

you found working with organizations that they've

31:45

come up with solution-wise, since you're not

31:47

always trying to present the solutions to

31:49

them, what are some of the interesting

31:51

ideas that they've come up with for

31:53

their own cultures to have non-draining meetings?

31:56

Well, actually the power parameter,

31:58

I wrote about it in another... book. So

32:00

it was a tool I came up with. But then

32:03

just as I published that other book,

32:05

I heard about a successful leader who

32:07

was doing something similar. And

32:10

she also called it the power barameter. So

32:13

she came up with the same ideas I did. And

32:15

she was practicing it in her organization. And

32:17

the second chapter in my book is about

32:19

her. And what

32:22

she is doing is in

32:25

her unit, they would

32:27

use the power barameter to check in

32:30

on personal energy levels for each individual

32:32

at the beginning of a meeting. And

32:34

then they would share it. And

32:36

it just takes five minutes. But actually

32:39

checking in on your personal energy level,

32:41

it also has the effect of that

32:43

you land mentally in the room where

32:45

you are, you become more present, you

32:48

become more aware. And you stop thinking

32:50

about the next thing you have to do

32:52

or the meeting you just came from. And

32:54

once they were sharing their personal energy level,

32:57

they would connect more with each other in

32:59

the sense they would understand better what state

33:01

of mind the other person that

33:03

they're collaborating with or the other people

33:05

they're collaborating with their

33:07

state of mind. And sometimes it

33:10

would lead to decisions such as there

33:12

was an employee and

33:14

his family was, they were very, very ill.

33:17

And once they checked in on his energy

33:19

level, they actually figured out, well, it's better

33:21

you're probably not present at this meeting, because

33:24

you should go back home and attend to them. And then

33:26

you could come back with more energy and be more productive,

33:28

because not going to be productive to have you in

33:30

the meeting today. And you should go take care of

33:32

your family. But they would

33:34

also align with each other. So

33:36

the rest of the meeting would be smoother,

33:39

faster. And then they promised each other that

33:42

if one of them could

33:44

sense that the energy in the

33:46

meeting was getting lower, they

33:48

would raise their voice. Because when the

33:50

energy is getting low, there's something wrong.

33:52

Okay, it could be that people are drained. It

33:55

could be that you just need five minutes break. It could

33:57

be they're talking about the wrong thing. It could be that

36:00

I think talking about energy is

36:02

easier than talking about feelings for

36:04

most people. And it's

36:06

not so confrontational unless

36:08

you want to share. I

36:10

think even though energy level isn't

36:13

a feeling, it's something you can

36:15

feel and it feels

36:17

kind of emotional, especially in like

36:19

in a business world or a productivity sense. Oh,

36:23

I have no energy and sharing that

36:25

even sharing a number only almost. Again,

36:27

we want to get away from a

36:30

judgment call on you

36:32

or on others. If they give a

36:35

low number, you would think,

36:37

oh, I have a low number. It's because I

36:39

spent all my energy getting all this great stuff

36:41

done, but that's not really what it's perceived as,

36:43

or at least what we think it will be

36:46

perceived as. If we go around the room

36:48

and I say, I'm a three. Oh, what's

36:50

wrong with them that they're at three right

36:52

now? Why can't they get their energy level

36:54

higher is kind of what the defensive mechanism

36:56

would be. I just wanted to

36:58

call that out there in terms of discomfort. Yes.

37:00

Yes. I completely see what you're saying.

37:04

And I did fear that

37:06

I would get those reactions.

37:08

I actually expected that is what

37:10

would happen, but it's not. And

37:12

I can't tell you why. I'm like, I just

37:14

think that people are okay with numbers. Exactly

37:17

what you're describing. That's what I feared, but I

37:19

haven't seen it. I'm glad to

37:21

hear that the experience that you've had with it

37:24

is completely the opposite. And it's, it's been freeing.

37:26

It's been helping. I think that somebody who hasn't

37:28

done it yet can come into that. It's one

37:30

of those things where it's like, we always feel

37:32

we're way less productive than we are because we

37:34

have so much more on our to-do list than

37:36

we really should be putting there for a singular

37:39

day or an hour. We think we can do

37:41

so much more than we can. And

37:43

then we beat ourselves up because of it. That's

37:45

the kind of productivity guilt that I'm bringing in

37:48

here to kind of address a little bit. Yes,

37:50

that's very true. But then if

37:52

you know that you're on a three and your

37:55

colleagues know you're on a three, you'll be

37:57

able to scope the world.

37:59

work in a way that you would

38:02

have a bigger chance of succeeding and do great. It

38:04

gives them a chance, but also you a

38:06

chance, to kind of go into a prioritization

38:09

and a triage mode of saying, you know,

38:11

I know where I'm at right now. And

38:13

one, I'm going to do something to address

38:15

that energy level as much as possible. But

38:17

two, I also can address

38:19

my task load. You can

38:21

shift things around, in other words, to make it work better.

38:24

Yeah, or you can shift how

38:26

you're working. Right. So,

38:29

as of yesterday, I did a full day

38:31

workshop with 35 people and then I had

38:33

to drive like a long drive just afterwards.

38:35

So, I was really, really tired when I got

38:38

back home and I was really tired and I woke up. And

38:41

it's been a long time since I was that

38:43

tired when I woke up. So, I was

38:45

low on energy this morning. I was probably on

38:47

a tour. It doesn't happen often, but I

38:49

was this morning. Unfortunately, I only had one meeting.

38:52

Then I decided, I'm going to take

38:54

my laptop and I'm going to go to bed. I'm going to

38:56

relax. And I'm

38:58

going to do some work. I'm just going to do a little bit. You

39:01

know, I've done some things I've got to do, but then I'm just going

39:03

to do something I feel like. And you know what

39:05

happened? I did so much that

39:07

I have to do, but I was

39:09

actually very productive because I was relaxed.

39:11

I was taking care of myself. I

39:14

respected that I was, for one

39:16

time's sake, I was on a tour, something like that. So,

39:19

at the end of the day, I was

39:21

actually pretty productive. I wouldn't have imagined it

39:23

if you asked me in the morning. Yeah.

39:26

I'm curious. So, obviously, I think

39:28

one of the first places to start is just

39:30

maybe going by a number. Do you have kind

39:33

of like, when we're starting to enter in to

39:35

having application of the awareness matrix,

39:38

we'll start with ourselves, but then

39:40

also as a group, how do

39:42

you suggest we get started integrating

39:45

this into our everyday work

39:47

and life? I

39:49

will suggest that you start with the

39:51

energy aspect of the matrix rather than

39:54

using the whole matrix. And

39:57

I will suggest that you start

39:59

being aware of energy levels and

40:02

that you start sharing it. And

40:04

so you talk about it for everybody

40:06

to take responsibility for the energy level

40:09

and for it to become a norm of how

40:11

you collaborate. You can even turn it into a

40:14

working principle if you use working

40:16

principles for how you collaborate. Then

40:19

everybody can do one thing at

40:21

the time to improve the energy

40:24

level in the collaboration. I

40:26

always recommend people just to do one

40:28

thing at the time because

40:30

when you have to change your behavior or

40:34

make new habits and improve how you do

40:36

things, you will succeed far more often

40:38

when you do one thing at the

40:40

time. You can make a whole list,

40:43

but just focus on one

40:45

at the time. That's a great

40:47

place to start. As we wrap up here,

40:49

obviously, I think that a lot of people

40:51

will benefit from actually picking up the book

40:53

and starting to dive in much more deeply

40:55

on this power barometer. Where

40:57

can people go to find out more about

41:00

the book as well as the work that

41:02

you're doing? Yes, on

41:04

josephinecampbell.com. Josephine spelled with

41:06

an F. And

41:09

there's a freebie section. If

41:11

you put in your email, you can actually

41:13

get the first chapter of Power Barometer for

41:15

free. You will also

41:18

find other resources, other tools from the

41:20

books that are available for you so

41:22

you can get started right away.

41:25

Perfect. We'll link up to that in the

41:27

show notes for people to find very easily

41:29

and jump on over to that. Josephine, it's

41:31

been great talking with you. I am excited

41:33

to see the impact that this is going

41:35

to make for people, not just

41:37

individually, but as groups and teams and

41:39

organizations. Thank you so much for sharing.

41:42

You're welcome. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

41:47

Well, that's another podcast crossed off your listening to-do

41:49

list. I hope that you enjoyed this conversation with

41:51

Josephine Campbell as much as I did. This time

41:53

of year, energy. I'm just going to go ahead

41:56

and say the cliche now more than ever. This

41:58

is the time of year. that this

42:00

is releasing in the fall winter time

42:02

where there is less light out for

42:04

a lot of us. And

42:07

it can be harder and harder

42:09

to manage and be aware of

42:11

our energy levels. This is an

42:13

important conversation to have had right

42:15

now. I suffer from that. I have an

42:17

issue when it comes to it's

42:19

just darker out or the lack of light

42:22

during the day because it's also gray out

42:24

instead of sunny and warm. It's cold and

42:26

dreary and I wanna just bundle up and

42:28

do nothing. And if you're like me, this

42:31

conversation will help you start to map some of

42:33

that out, figuring out what you can do, how

42:36

you can best get around that temporary shortcoming,

42:38

so to speak. And if you know of

42:40

somebody else who is like me and if

42:43

you're like me, you probably do, you know

42:45

somebody else who struggles at this time with

42:47

energy management, would you do me the favor

42:49

of sharing this conversation with them? Hit that

42:51

share button wherever you're listening to this, in

42:54

a podcast app or on the website or

42:57

even over at beyondthetodolist.com

43:00

where you can find the show notes you can share from there as well. Thank

43:02

you so much for sharing. Thanks again

43:04

for listening and I'll see you next

43:06

episode.