0:16

Hello and welcome back to Beyond

0:18

the To Do List. I am your

0:20

host, Eric Fisher, and it's almost 2024.

0:22

We've all been stressed and busy. I

0:24

mean, we already were even before 2020.

0:27

But I can't believe that that quick succession

0:29

of years, 2020, 2021, 22, 23, it's going

0:34

to be 2024. And honestly, this has

0:36

me in a bit of an introspective

0:38

mood or mode. And obviously

0:40

traditional productivity thought says we need to

0:43

close out the year well and start

0:45

the new one well also, but

0:47

let's be real. That's hard. There's

0:50

a rush to close all the loops, set

0:53

all the goals, and then succeed

0:55

with all of them as New Year's resolutions.

0:57

And, and I don't know about you, but

0:59

I hate that pressure. So I

1:01

decided I want to take a little time

1:04

to revisit two shows in particular from this

1:06

past year about being more human. See, because

1:08

over the course of those years that I just

1:11

rattled off, I've kind of felt like that slipping

1:13

away a little bit. Or there would

1:15

be moments that I would notice

1:17

my humanity and my being

1:19

or whatever you want to call it moments

1:22

in community camaraderie or

1:24

even solitude but

1:26

with art or nature. And that's

1:28

why this week I wanted to

1:30

revisit a conversation I had with

1:32

Gretchen Rubin, podcaster and author.

1:35

I had this conversation earlier this year

1:37

with her about her book life in

1:39

five senses, how exploring the senses got

1:41

me out of my head and into

1:43

the world. And basically

1:45

her book is about her

1:48

transformative experience of heightened

1:50

sensory perception after she

1:52

realized the potential loss

1:55

of her sense of sight and

1:58

then had a subsequent deep appreciation

2:00

for basically life's ordinary moments and

2:02

I love that. And in this

2:05

conversation we talk about that as

2:07

well as the difference of

2:10

but also the meshing of analog

2:12

and digital experiences. Let's face it,

2:15

we're living in both those worlds.

2:17

We discuss the value of live

2:19

analog experiences like concerts

2:22

and art and cooking.

2:25

Speaking of cooking, we talk about

2:28

taste preferences and differences and obviously

2:30

we talk about all the senses

2:32

really but I just can't help

2:34

but think productivity isn't just about

2:36

doing things or checking things

2:38

off. It's a means to an end

2:41

and that's why we talk about

2:43

topics like the five senses in

2:45

this podcast because we often need

2:47

new and fresh moments of clarity

2:49

to check in with ourselves. I'm

2:52

often using the phrase self-awareness on the show a lot

2:54

and there's a reason for that. Knowing

2:56

what you want, learning how

2:58

others have accomplished that without burning

3:01

out, without selling your

3:03

soul, and without just being a

3:05

flurry of busy activity but

3:07

instead being strategic and purposeful

3:10

and intentional, that's

3:13

the goal. Anyway, that's what I hope you get

3:15

as you listen to this conversation and I hope

3:17

if you've heard it before it resonates

3:19

deeper this time as you spend time

3:22

with friends, family, and in meaningful

3:24

moments during this holiday and

3:27

New Year season. Also,

3:29

we've got a mailbag episode coming

3:31

up. If you've got a burning

3:33

productivity problem or question, head on

3:36

over to beyondthetodulist.com. Click the

3:38

contact button in the top part of

3:40

the site and it'll send a message

3:42

right to me at my email. Again,

3:45

that's beyondthetodulist.com and then click

3:47

the contact button at the

3:49

top of the site to

3:51

send me a message. Alright,

3:53

I'm gonna get out of the

3:56

way. Enjoy this conversation with Gretchen

3:58

Rubin. Well,

4:01

this week it is my privilege to

4:03

welcome back Gretchen Rubin to the show.

4:05

Gretchen, welcome back to Beyond the To-Do

4:07

List. I'm so happy to be back

4:09

and getting the chance to talk to you. It's

4:12

so fun to talk to you and you're

4:14

a podcaster in your own right, so I

4:16

always feel really refreshed. It's becoming more of

4:18

a habit, I think, or more of a

4:20

commonplace where somebody I talk to is also

4:22

a podcaster, or at least has guessed it

4:25

on many podcasts. You have been doing both

4:27

for a very long time, not to mention

4:29

writing, and that's one of the things that

4:31

we're here to talk about. You've got a

4:33

brand new book. It's called Life in Five

4:35

Senses, how exploring the senses got me out

4:37

of my head and into the world. And

4:39

I want to talk to you about what

4:42

the origin story of this book is, but I

4:44

want to say as soon as I saw it,

4:46

I thought to myself, this is

4:48

a real key book for me. So

4:50

personal side note, I'm sure

4:52

you're familiar with the Enneagram. Yeah.

4:55

I'm a five, and fives

4:57

get stuck in their head, and to

4:59

get out of their head have to get into

5:02

their body. And that's where

5:04

the five senses come in. So I was like,

5:06

oh my gosh, this is like a handbook for

5:08

being a healthy five on the Enneagram scale. I'm

5:11

curious if you've had anybody give you that feedback yet at

5:13

all. Not at all. And

5:15

I have a couple books about the Enneagram. I'm going to run

5:17

and look that up because I hadn't made that connection. You

5:20

know how when you learn about something, like, and

5:22

you know it, but you don't connect it to

5:24

something that you learn later. You know,

5:26

like you don't connect the dots until somebody points

5:28

them out, and then you can connect two things

5:30

that you sort of already know about. So I'm really,

5:32

I'm writing myself a note right now. That's

5:34

a great point. I have heard, you

5:37

know, because I love any kind of categorization,

5:39

like I have my Four Tendencies quiz that

5:41

divides people into four tendencies. I

5:44

love any kind of self-knowledge quiz or

5:46

self-knowledge framework. So I know the Enneagram,

5:48

and now I'm really excited to think

5:50

about it in connection with the five

5:52

senses. So okay, insight dropping right here

5:55

in front of us. Yeah,

5:57

well, and again, it's big and bold right

5:59

there. in the title, five. So for

6:01

me, it's even more kind of a subtle

6:03

call out to it as well. Wow,

6:06

nicely done to make that connection.

6:08

Okay, so the five and the

6:10

five senses. Okay, I'm running to

6:12

my bookshelves right after we're done talking

6:15

to pull out my volumes. Yeah. So

6:17

but for you, and you

6:19

know, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole

6:21

of asking you what you're I mean, you would have

6:23

probably said it already if you knew that you were

6:25

a five, and you probably would have thought about that.

6:27

But we don't have to go into that. But for you, this

6:30

process, I'm always curious, when authors

6:32

come to a point of saying,

6:35

I have a new book idea, and

6:38

you can kind of see the trail from book

6:40

to book to book. And it's, you know, interesting

6:42

of, oh, we talked about this,

6:44

and then that pointed me in this direction.

6:47

And then this next book came, this one's,

6:49

I think a little bit different, where it's

6:51

just a natural progression. I think it's actually

6:53

more of a current current events is probably

6:55

not the best way to put it. But

6:57

where we find ourselves in our lives right

6:59

now, on a global scale, we've all kind

7:01

of had to be sequestered

7:04

and had our routines change.

7:06

And in other

7:08

words, massive shifts in thoughts and

7:10

ideas and emotions. And so

7:13

that's kind of where I thought, Okay,

7:15

I can see where she's coming from.

7:17

Obviously, you had a catalyzing event that

7:19

kick started this whole process of a

7:21

year long journey through all five senses.

7:23

I'd love for you to tell basically

7:25

that superhero origin story for this book.

7:28

Well, as you say, when I look back on my

7:30

previous work and other things that I've done,

7:32

the groundwork was there, but I just I

7:34

hadn't seen it myself. Like I hadn't put

7:36

together the pieces. And I

7:38

did I had this sort of epiphany moment where,

7:41

so I'm a person who gets I'm kind of prone to

7:43

pink eye. So I get pink eye from time to time,

7:46

usually goes away in zone. But one time, it was

7:48

really sticking around. So I

7:50

went to the eye doctor and

7:52

got my amateur diagnosis confirmed. And then

7:55

as I was getting ready to leave,

7:57

he said to me very casually like,

7:59

Oh, we be sure to come in

8:01

for your next checkup. You know you're at risk

8:03

for losing your eyesight, so you don't want to

8:05

miss a trip. And I was like, wait, what

8:07

are you talking about? I didn't know that. And

8:10

he said, oh yeah, you're very severely

8:12

nearsighted and that means you're at greater

8:14

risk of a detached retina. And

8:16

if that happens, you can lose some of your vision. So

8:18

we would want to catch it right away. And

8:21

I had a friend who had lost some

8:24

of his vision to a detached retina. So

8:26

this was very real to me.

8:29

And I mean, I went out

8:31

on the street. And intellectually, of

8:33

course, I knew that I could lose any of

8:35

my senses at any time. And I knew of,

8:37

too, that I could still have a rich and

8:39

fulfilling and meaningful life if I did lose my

8:41

senses. But it somehow

8:43

just hit me that

8:46

I really could lose my sense

8:49

of sight. And at that moment, I realized, and

8:51

I'm not appreciating it all. I don't

8:53

take any time thinking about it,

8:55

reveling in it. If

8:57

I did lose my sight, I would feel so

9:00

much regret for everything that I hadn't noticed that

9:02

was happening right in front of me. At the moment

9:04

that I was having this realization, every

9:07

knob in my brain just cranked up

9:10

to 11. And

9:12

I could see everything with crystal clarity. I

9:14

could hear every noise. I could smell. I

9:17

live in New York City, pretty smelly place.

9:19

I could smell these smells. I could

9:21

feel the cold sidewalk below

9:23

my feet and the wind in my face.

9:25

And it was just, all my senses, it just

9:27

was sort of this psychedelic experience. And again, I

9:30

live in New York City, so I was walking

9:32

home from the eye doctor. And it lasted for that

9:34

walk. And it was just a transformative walk.

9:36

I just never had felt the world

9:39

with such clarity. But I realized,

9:41

I could do this at any time. This is

9:43

like I'm not strapping some gizmo to my face.

9:46

It's just that I haven't been paying attention. I

9:48

have the power to appreciate my

9:50

ordinary days so much more than I

9:52

have been. And I just thought, I

9:55

was in this kind of fog of

9:57

constant preoccupation and walking around. lost

10:00

in my own thoughts and I thought I need to

10:02

get out into my body and the way to

10:04

do that is through my five senses and really connect

10:06

with the world and with other people and with

10:08

myself. And then looking back I realized

10:10

I'd been sort of edging up on this in

10:12

a lot of indirect ways but this is where

10:14

it all crystallized to me and like I really

10:16

want to live my life in all five senses. I

10:19

had a little bit of a sliver of

10:21

that also an eye doctor experience. I

10:25

did not wear glasses until

10:27

about let's say February

10:29

of 2021. We're

10:32

recording this in March 2023. So

10:35

it's been about two years now. I'm actually ironically

10:37

I am going to the eye doctor for an

10:39

annual checkup today. Oh, there you go. I'm of

10:41

this recording. Go to the eye doctor. Yeah. So

10:44

everybody warning, regular reminder, here you go.

10:47

But I've been having issues and I thought you know what?

10:49

I have trouble driving at night. Things are

10:51

blurry at times. And I thought to

10:53

myself, you know what? What if I go to the eye

10:55

doctor and just say, hey, I'm having trouble driving at night.

10:57

Is there any kind of like driving glasses

11:00

for at night? Not

11:02

thinking like I was like, no, I've had

11:04

20-20 vision my whole life. Well, creeping up

11:06

into mid 40s, it's like,

11:09

oh, I'm past that threshold of now that's going

11:11

to start deteriorating. And I start going through, they

11:13

do the test and they're like, well, you need

11:15

glasses. And I'm like, what? And they're like, you

11:18

need bifocals. And I'm like, what? And

11:20

I'm like, I don't feel blind. I just

11:22

feel like at night things are just whatever.

11:24

Anyway, longer story shorter, I

11:26

go, I get the prescription, I

11:29

order the glasses, they come in, I get

11:31

them, I bring them out into the car

11:33

and I put them on for the very

11:35

first time and I'm like, there's

11:37

individual leaves on that tree. I

11:40

had that ex- I had it like, you know,

11:42

seven, eight years old. But it's

11:44

amazing, right? Yeah. And it

11:47

just, it kind of, so it was a singular

11:49

sense, but it was that very moment that I

11:51

thought, oh my gosh, I've been missing out. So

11:53

I've been trying to, again, and that's why this is

11:56

kind of a timely book for me. It's been two

11:58

years. We tend to have- revelation

12:00

moments and then kind of ease back out

12:02

of them. Like you said, that lasted for

12:04

that walk home. But

12:06

what was the jumping point from you

12:08

having that walk home and that kind

12:10

of moment of clarity there to saying,

12:12

you know what? I need to write

12:14

about this. I need to experiment with

12:16

this. Well, I was just

12:18

instantly seized by this determination to just go

12:21

deep into an exploration of the five senses.

12:23

And I'm a very systematic person. And I'm

12:25

also kind of a street scientist where I'm

12:27

always experimenting on myself. I'm like my own

12:30

guinea pig. And the only way

12:32

I could really understand something is to like read about

12:34

it and take notes and then write about it to

12:36

figure out what I think or to get myself

12:38

to do something. So I had the

12:40

epiphany and I thought I need to do this.

12:42

You know, I wrote the happiness project, which was

12:45

all about sort of understanding happiness and how

12:47

to make myself happier. And I thought I

12:49

need to do something that's going to put

12:51

me through the research, the

12:53

experimentation and the learning that can come from

12:56

it if I'm really going to grapple with

12:58

this in a serious way. Because you're right,

13:00

it's very easy to have an epiphany. It's

13:02

very easy to feel changed, but it's hard

13:04

to be changed. And that takes

13:07

a lot of work. And so for me, the way

13:09

I do it is I read a book and that

13:11

keeps me on track and that kind of lasts long

13:13

enough for real change to happen. It really sinks

13:15

in over time. But the minute that

13:17

I got home, I was really seized by

13:19

a determination to go deep. I knew

13:21

that this was the path that I

13:23

wanted to take because I've been writing

13:25

about happiness and human nature for more than a

13:28

decade. I think about it all the time. They

13:30

did have the feeling that something was missing. I

13:32

felt like there was something that I was

13:35

overlooking. There was something that I was missing.

13:37

And then when I had that experience, it all

13:39

clicked in and I was like, this is the piece that

13:41

I've been missing. And so I was very

13:43

excited to have identified it and then

13:45

to see a framework where I could

13:48

explore it. I think one of

13:50

the interesting things also, again, that ties into one

13:52

of the long standing preoccupations that I have is

13:55

analog versus digital. And I know that digital

13:57

can aid. We spend so much time in

13:59

the digital. world, we forget that

14:01

we kind of hear, oh

14:06

digital bad or get off your phone or too

14:08

much screen time, in other words. Blanket statements that

14:10

are well-meaning but not necessarily helpful, per se. And

14:13

I think one of the things that really is interesting to me

14:15

is some of these senses

14:17

can be aided by digital. Don't

14:21

get me wrong, there's nothing that replaces getting

14:23

out in the world, whether that's your own

14:25

circle of area that you can go in or

14:27

further and beyond with travel, etc. And

14:29

being analog about things, I

14:32

mean I don't know what I'd do without

14:34

digital. Well, let me say this, I'm thinking

14:36

of sound, I'm thinking of auditory, I'm a

14:38

huge music fan. But I

14:40

love going to concerts, which I kind

14:42

of, you know, they're using digital technology

14:44

but to me that's an analog thing

14:46

because it's experiencing live performance of music,

14:48

etc. But ultimately having digital music

14:50

on my phone at all times

14:52

allowing me to not just have

14:55

it on as background music but

14:57

to be able to like sit and actually

14:59

observe as a word that you use with

15:01

seeing but contemplative listening or just pure enjoyment

15:03

for the sake of music. Like what we

15:05

used to do when we were teenagers where

15:07

we'd open up the album and look through

15:10

the liner notes while we had our headphones

15:12

on in our bedroom and we were in

15:14

our own little world, like that's what I'm

15:16

trying to get back to myself personally at

15:18

least a little bit, especially because of this

15:20

book. Well, that's a really

15:22

interesting point and I think a lot of people

15:24

who write about the five senses

15:27

and whatever approach they take do

15:29

tend to be sort of very anti-technology.

15:31

And I have to say that I'm very

15:33

pro-technology when it's used wisely because I think you're

15:35

right, a lot of times it can

15:38

really amplify or make things more convenient

15:40

or give us opportunities that we wouldn't

15:42

otherwise have. I think that the

15:44

challenge is for each of us to say, well,

15:46

where is technology getting in my way and undermining

15:48

my like my happiness and my sense of connection

15:50

to the world instead of bolstering it? So for

15:53

instance, one of my favorite little exercises,

15:55

if you're the kind of person who can't get

15:57

off your phone is I'm like, turn your phone

15:59

to grayscale. Have it be in black white

16:01

and gray instead of full color and you will find it

16:03

much easier to stay off your front Because it's just it's

16:05

much less enticing and it's much less convenient to use a

16:08

phone in black white and gray By the way This is

16:10

a way to get your kids off their devices as you

16:12

just switch it and tell them that it's broken and you

16:14

can't Fix it, but I agree with you

16:16

that there is often it really will put Opportunities

16:19

in your mind like I go to the net

16:21

every day and from time to time like all

16:23

listen to music while I walk Around and kind

16:25

of have a soundtrack. It really dramatically

16:28

Changes my experience now I'm

16:31

not a person who does that very often but

16:33

I can imagine that for some people that would

16:35

be a really important and Significant part of that

16:37

experience and it's really only possible because of how

16:39

easy it is now for us to carry around

16:42

Thousands of songs in our pockets and pick

16:44

and choose very easily But you

16:46

know, it's interesting what you say about the album

16:48

because I do hear people talk about like in

16:50

a way it's so convenient to have all that

16:52

music and Probably you'd make that

16:55

trade there is something lost because

16:57

the cultivating of the collection

16:59

that people would come and see and the

17:01

excitement of handling the album and looking at

17:03

the art and the liner and just the

17:06

Physicality of it and so it's a bug and a

17:08

feature It was a huge pain to slip all that

17:10

stuff around and have to store it But

17:12

on the other hand, it's kind of fun to have it

17:14

and display it when we love something We often want to

17:16

show it to other people and share it that way So

17:19

a lot of times these things are complicated It's

17:21

not that one is right and one is wrong or

17:23

one is better and one is worse But it's just like

17:25

you sort of have to pick and choose and I think

17:27

what we want to do is to be aware of Wow,

17:30

I really get something from a concert that I

17:32

don't get from listening to something in my living

17:34

room Therefore I want to make space for that

17:37

in my calendar and in my budget to go

17:39

hear live music Rather than

17:41

saying oh, it's illegitimate to listen to music

17:43

on your smartphone because that's not good

17:46

or something Which some people seem to just

17:48

kind of dismiss it all and I think there's

17:50

a lot of good to be had Yeah, there definitely

17:52

is and for me again. There's a power to

17:54

music I remember there was one summer and even

17:56

then into the fall. I was taking time off

17:58

for I had done year of college and

18:01

I was going to take a semester off

18:03

so I had all summer and then that

18:05

fall semester and I was working in a

18:07

warehouse and my saving grace was my Walkman.

18:09

Yeah, Walkman. I was using tapes. I was

18:11

using tapes because CDs skip. I

18:14

recorded or copied over like favorite

18:16

tracks and even full favorite albums

18:18

onto tapes and just

18:20

the perception of time, the perception

18:22

of how hard work was

18:25

or wasn't due to the music. It

18:27

was just this transforming moment

18:29

in time and experience and I've been

18:31

curious to see if that happens to

18:33

other people. Some people I

18:36

know, I've had conversations with them, friends

18:38

and family etc. and they seem to

18:40

say, yeah, similar experience. I just don't

18:42

know outside of myself. Another reason to

18:44

get into the senses is to connect

18:46

with other people. That's just

18:48

been one of the kind of milestone chunk

18:50

of like nine months that really drove that home

18:52

and said there's a power not just

18:55

to music but like sound and soundscapes

18:57

and just imagination and even just closing

18:59

your eyes, maybe focusing on specific senses

19:01

and closing other ones off to really

19:04

dive deeper into them. When

19:06

one sense goes down, the other ones

19:08

become more aware. That's

19:10

why the lights go down when you're

19:13

going to a concert or why you close

19:15

your eyes when you're kissing, you have more

19:17

attention for whatever's left or like also if

19:19

you really want to focus like if I'm

19:22

a very fearful driver and so I'll often

19:24

turn off the radio when I'm driving so

19:26

I can see better. It's

19:28

like why? Where is your attention going?

19:32

It can be helpful and it can also

19:34

just be fun to sort of play with

19:36

what kind of sensory information you're doing. It's one

19:38

of my exercises. I did a dining in the

19:41

dark where you wear a mask while you're eating.

19:43

Say you eat without seeing your food

19:45

or the people around you and it

19:48

was really interesting. It very much changed

19:50

the experience as you can imagine. I

19:52

remember there being a scene in a movie, I

19:54

think it's called About Time or something like that.

19:56

I know that I should know this because time

19:58

is a very important thing. facet of productivity, but

20:00

it's the one where the guy can go in

20:03

a closet and like time travel back to Any

20:05

moment in his life and anyway There's a

20:07

scene where he meets his future wife and

20:09

it's like a double date and it's in

20:11

a like you get Escorted down and you

20:13

get sat and there's no light and you

20:15

eat in the dark and anyway that's that's

20:17

what that reminded me of obviously getting into

20:19

our bodies and Focusing on

20:22

the senses and really not just enjoying them

20:24

Kind of cherishing them and really

20:26

holding them as something that's special

20:28

and integral is Important

20:31

not just for the sake of I say

20:33

it's productive to live a full life That's kind

20:35

of the aim of productivity in a way. It's

20:38

not just about our senses making us

20:40

feel life richer But there's other benefits

20:43

to when you talk to those in

20:45

the book beyond just Sensing

20:47

things stronger. It goes way beyond that

20:50

No, you can use it to calm anxiety

20:52

and you know to sort of feel

20:55

less stress You can use it to just

20:57

have more fun. Just lighten up You can

20:59

use it to connect with other people you

21:01

can use it to evoke memories and preserve

21:03

memories I'm somebody who doesn't remember things

21:05

my own life very well So I'm always

21:08

looking for ways to like make memories

21:10

more solid you can use it great

21:12

for sparking creativity I thought oh

21:14

that despite spark my creativity I was

21:16

not prepared for like how much creativity this

21:18

would just sort of unleash into myself

21:21

You can use it to help yourself like stop

21:24

Snacking all sorts of hacks about like what if

21:26

you need to quiet a crowd? What if you

21:28

need to make small talk with a stranger like

21:31

the five senses offer all sorts of

21:33

sort of Transcendent benefits, but

21:35

then also like super kind of

21:37

day-to-day hot I

21:40

was surprised by in how many

21:42

directions The five senses took me

21:44

in terms of just making my life happier

21:46

or healthier or more productive or more creative

21:49

So you went on a journey

21:51

over a year kind of experimenting

21:53

in doing different You know self

21:55

experiments as you say about the

21:58

five senses for yourself curious

22:00

kind of two-part question here. One

22:02

is how did you structure that

22:04

experimentation over the course of a

22:06

year and then what were some

22:08

of your favorite or even most

22:10

surprising findings from those experiments? Well

22:13

this is a thing. Okay, Eric, so always

22:16

for me it's structure. What is the structure

22:18

of a book? And I will spend years

22:20

researching and thinking about a subject before I

22:22

understand what the structure is. And then inevitably

22:24

I pick a structure where anybody reading the

22:27

final book would say, what other structure could

22:29

you pick? This is the most obvious structure

22:31

and yet for me it's been months and months of sweat

22:33

pouring down my face trying to figure out. So

22:35

with the five senses, okay. First I

22:37

was like, no it's going to be 11 senses

22:39

or maybe it's nine senses. It's like sort of

22:41

the five kindergarten. You could call the five senses

22:43

the Aristotelian senses or the

22:46

kindergarten senses that seeing hearing

22:48

is only tasting touching. Plus then I

22:50

had these other ones that I was going to do.

22:52

So was it nine? Was it 11? I went back.

22:54

I went forth. And then you know a friend of

22:56

mine, I was talking to her and she's like, you

22:58

know I think you should just talk about the five

23:00

senses. And I was like, you know what? I think

23:02

you're right. So then I had the five senses. Plus

23:04

then I had a section that was called Somsorium. And

23:07

that was about all how our senses all work

23:09

together. And then my editor said, you know

23:11

what? By the time I get to five I'm kind of ready

23:13

for it to be done. And so

23:15

the structure of the book is the

23:17

five senses. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching

23:19

in that classic kindergarten Aristotelian order. Which

23:22

makes sense if you think about why they're in

23:24

that order. But although you might think,

23:26

oh gosh she just grabbed the most obvious

23:28

structure. It actually took me so

23:30

much intellectual labor to

23:33

get there. Which I think ended up making the

23:35

book better. But it was hard. You know

23:37

the most surprising thing I learned is

23:40

kind of the most obvious thing that

23:42

I should learn. And you mentioned it

23:44

in your talk about going to the

23:46

eye doctor. Which is how we all

23:48

live in our own sensory world. Like

23:50

you think, oh the world, I kind

23:52

of said, well yeah we all have

23:54

our own you know individual makeup. But

23:56

we're basically, the world is the world.

23:58

No we're seeing. We perceive

24:00

such different sensory experiences. And so

24:03

you say you didn't realize how

24:05

much your vision had been affected.

24:07

That's very, very common. It's very common for

24:10

people not to realize how much hearing they're

24:12

not hearing. There's a, I read a memoir

24:14

of a guy who was a partner in

24:16

a law firm and he was 34 years

24:18

old before he realized that he had, you

24:20

know, pretty significant hearing loss. He just thought

24:22

everybody heard the way that he did. They

24:24

just coped with it better. It's

24:26

not uncommon for people to be like young

24:28

adults before they realize they're colorblind or that

24:31

they don't have a sense of smell. We just

24:33

have this natural assumption that people perceive

24:35

the world the way we do. And

24:37

you also, your brain is

24:39

not an objective reporter. Your brain is trying

24:42

to tell you what it thinks Eric wants

24:44

to know and needs to know. And my

24:46

brain is telling Gretchen what Gretchen needs to

24:48

know and wants to know. And again, like

24:51

I live in New York city and we're

24:53

on a podcast and it could very well

24:55

be that a siren will start to go. And

24:57

I guarantee you, you will

24:59

hear the siren coming through the microphone and

25:01

I will not hear it because my

25:03

brain is like, we don't need to hear sirens. But

25:06

somebody said to me, Oh, in the LA people

25:08

don't hear the helicopters because those are

25:10

so common that the brain just puts them into

25:12

the background. It doesn't signal them as

25:15

information. I had a similar

25:17

experience where, and this was something that had

25:19

puzzled me for years. So I know more

25:21

than a decade ago, I quit sugar. I

25:23

have this such a powerful, uncontrollable sweet tooth.

25:25

So I thought, you know what, I just

25:27

want to give it up altogether that, you know, I'm

25:29

an abstainer, not a moderator. It's easy for me to

25:31

have none than to have a little bit. I'm just

25:33

going to quit eating sugar. It's too boring to have

25:35

this always in my head. So I gave up sugar

25:38

and it wasn't that hard for me. And

25:40

over the years, people have said to me,

25:42

like, why was it that harder for you?

25:44

Like, you're we're also surrounded by these cues.

25:47

You know, you you turn on the TV, you

25:49

open up social media, you walk down the street

25:51

and you see all you know, you're in an

25:54

airport and you just see these rows and

25:56

rows of delicacies and you smell this stuff

25:58

and you're constantly reminded. the

26:00

cabinet at home or at work, like why

26:02

does this not bother you? And

26:04

I thought, why doesn't it? Like

26:08

I have this really bonkers sweet tooth but

26:10

now it doesn't bother me. Why not? I

26:13

just was truly puzzled by that. And

26:15

then I realized that it you know after

26:18

I stopped eating sugar my brain was just like

26:20

this is an interesting information progression. She doesn't

26:23

need to know this. She doesn't respond to

26:25

those things. It's like seeing an

26:27

enticing display of dog food. It's useful.

26:30

It's there. It's just not useful to

26:32

me or like uncooked oatmeal and

26:34

rice. It's like that's not

26:36

interesting to me. I wouldn't reach for that. I

26:38

could dial into it of course if I pay attention

26:41

then I notice oh like the beautiful smell of the

26:43

bakery. But it just doesn't tug

26:45

at my mind the way that I think it does

26:47

for some people. And I think that's why. I

26:49

think that at a certain point my brain just turned

26:51

down that knob because it wasn't

26:54

useful. So my sensory experiences are

26:56

really very different from other people's

26:58

sensory experiences because of my

27:00

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27:34

I know that there's a lot

27:37

of people out there wondering the question of

27:41

before the dial got turned all the

27:43

way down there was probably some difficulty

27:45

at least in the early stages of

27:48

again with your self-confessed such a strong sweet

27:50

tooth. Do you have any kind of I

27:52

mean again it's been 10 years do you

27:54

have any kind of recollection as to the

27:56

kind of early moments of trying to turn

27:59

that dial down? whether

28:01

that was intentional or if it

28:03

was byproduct of your systematic approach,

28:05

obviously. Well, I write about that in

28:07

Better Than Before because it was kind of like this

28:09

huge experience in my life because it was so unexpected

28:11

that I just was able to do it so quickly.

28:14

And what I talk about there is I happened to

28:16

read a book called Why We Get Fat by Gary

28:18

Taubes, which is really all about insulin. My

28:20

sister's a type 1 diabetic, so I was very

28:22

interested in that, especially at that time, in the role of

28:25

insulin in the body. So that's why I

28:27

happened to read that book because I wanted

28:29

to understand more about insulin. And he just

28:31

really made this case for why insulin

28:34

is sparked by foods with carbohydrates. And so

28:36

if you don't want your insulin to go

28:38

up, just avoid those foods. And

28:41

this was in Better Than Before,

28:43

I talk about this as the strategy of the lightning bolt. This

28:45

is one of the most effective ways to change

28:47

the habit, but it kind of has to happen

28:49

to you. You can't make it happen the way you

28:51

can do the strategy of pairing or the strategy of

28:54

scheduling or something. I was just so

28:56

struck by this book and the ideas in

28:58

this book that I just overnight changed all my

29:00

eating habits. And I just quit sugar. I basically

29:03

gave up most carbs except for nuts

29:05

and leafy vegetables, and it just stuck.

29:08

And so I think at that time, I was so

29:10

swept up in kind of the newness of it. You

29:12

know, sort of like when you start something new, there's

29:14

all this excitement and energy. Kind of makes

29:16

it easy to start kind of rolling down a

29:18

hill at the beginning, and then it gets harder

29:20

as you continue and continue. And I

29:23

think what happened was it was such a

29:25

new way of eating, and I was eating

29:27

all kinds of foods that I had before

29:29

been avoiding. And so that was sort of

29:31

fun and satisfying. And then I think

29:34

that sort of that switch over happened

29:36

pretty seamlessly. So I think I

29:38

was very fortunate. Like I'm not saying – I mean,

29:40

your mileage may vary in terms of how this would

29:43

unfold for somebody, but that's how I did it. I

29:45

read this book. I decided, okay, I'm going to

29:47

just change everything overnight. I did it,

29:50

and by the time I

29:53

was sort of accustomed to it, all

29:55

that noise had really faded because I was somebody

29:57

who like, you know, back in the day, in

30:00

a day when everybody was sitting a meeting, you know, you'd sit in

30:02

a meeting, there'd be a plate of cookies. For two hours,

30:04

I'd be like, I don't want to have a cookie. I don't want to have

30:06

a cookie. And then I would eat three cookies on my way out the door.

30:08

You know, like, it was just always on

30:10

my mind. Oh, we have ice cream in the freezer. Now,

30:13

later today, tomorrow, two bites, three

30:15

bites. It's my birthday, all that. I

30:18

just was so bored of it. It was so tiring.

30:20

And so then when I gave it up, I was

30:22

like, this is great. You know, somebody said to me,

30:24

what's the fun of life without a brownie? And I

30:27

thought, you know, life without a brownie is so much

30:29

more fun for me than any brownie could ever be.

30:31

But again, I'm not saying this is true for

30:33

everyone. Absolutely not. There are moderators who like to

30:36

have things sometimes or a little

30:38

bit. I'm not saying this would work

30:40

for everyone or that I'm recommending. I'm

30:42

just saying it's something that puzzled me

30:44

from my own experience. And it wasn't

30:47

until I wrote the life and five

30:49

senses that my own experience made

30:51

sense to me because I

30:54

understood how my five senses

30:56

were contributing to my inner

30:58

experience. You mentioned the thing

31:00

about living in New York City and hearing

31:02

the sirens, which I've heard in the course

31:04

of this podcast. I don't know if they'll

31:06

be in the final edit because it may

31:08

be, you know, processed out by accident or

31:10

even on purpose. Wait, Eric, I think there's

31:12

one right now. There literally is. And so

31:14

it's totally fine. It doesn't

31:17

bother me. Yeah. And I don't

31:19

even hear it because sometimes people be like, oh, let's wait

31:21

for my dog to start barking. But I don't even

31:23

hear it. Yeah. But I liken

31:25

that to this sweet tooth thing where,

31:27

again, the plate of cookies and the

31:30

siren, two different senses, two

31:32

things that are present. But you

31:34

got to the point where your

31:36

senses acclimated and said, that's not

31:38

useful information. Yeah. Acclimation is the

31:40

perfect word for it. I'm acclimated to it. And

31:42

you know, we've all had this experience where like

31:44

you get a dog and then all of a

31:46

sudden you're like, wow, I know I never noticed

31:48

all the like pet stores in my neighborhood because

31:51

your brain was like, I don't need to splash that

31:53

information for you because it's that useful. Or

31:55

like you love music, you probably when

31:57

you are like scrolling through your

31:59

day or looking at the newspaper or whatever, you probably

32:02

see a lot of things about concerts

32:04

and performances because that's interesting to you. I

32:06

almost never go to a concert or performance.

32:08

I'm not a huge music person. So my

32:10

brain doesn't make that stuff jump out of the page at

32:12

me. So this is something we're all very

32:14

familiar with and yet it was still super

32:17

surprising to me to realize just how

32:20

concreted it is, like how much this

32:22

really is happening. It's not just like

32:24

nobody can decide what color the dress

32:26

is and it's kind of this one-time

32:28

phenomenon. It's happening all

32:31

the time. Well, it's funny you mentioned that music

32:33

and going out in the public because one of the

32:35

things for me that it's a blessing and a curse

32:38

is going into a restaurant or into

32:40

a public space where there is music

32:42

playing. For me, it's like part of

32:44

the atmosphere. It's a factor like temperature

32:47

or how many people are spaced

32:49

together or grouped together, how loud

32:51

the music, how soft it is.

32:53

But regardless of the volume of

32:56

the music, my brain is always

32:58

going, oh, what song is this?

33:00

It's almost an internal trivia game of how

33:02

soon can I figure out what song it

33:04

is. See, that is such

33:06

a perfect example because I'm very

33:08

sensitive to the noise level. If it's

33:11

loud, I don't like it. So I'm

33:13

aware of that. But for

33:15

you, it's the actual content of the

33:17

music. I remember I talked to a

33:19

friend who says this very much

33:21

like you and she said she finds it very

33:23

distracting even to be in a drugstore when they're

33:26

playing music because she's like, if there's

33:28

music, I stop and listen because

33:30

her brain is just like, music, music,

33:32

music. Same thing with you. You're having

33:34

a whole extra level. You might

33:36

choose a restaurant because they have such an amazing clay

33:38

lift. Whereas for me, I'd be like,

33:41

oh, do they play music? I didn't even

33:43

notice that because our brains are helping us.

33:45

They're looking for what we want to know

33:47

and what we need to experience. That's

33:49

a perfect example. I love that. That

33:51

for you, that is a factor in

33:53

a way that it just doesn't matter to me.

33:55

Well, you mentioned earlier, you turn the radio off

33:57

in the car. So for me, that's also different

33:59

because because I turn music on

34:01

and I love listening to podcasts in

34:04

the car too. So both those things

34:06

actually make me more aware. When

34:08

it's silent, I start to

34:11

like panic and look everywhere and any

34:13

sound I hear, any siren

34:15

I hear, anything like that,

34:17

I'm always just like looking in all the

34:20

mirrors constantly, fleeting

34:22

back and forth between them all.

34:25

Because I'm calm and I'm enjoying the

34:27

ride and even if it's spoken word,

34:29

probably somebody is listening to

34:31

this right now while they're driving. I hope you're

34:33

having a good experience by the way. But that's

34:35

for me, that helps me. Long car trips, it's

34:37

like a five, six hour drive for me to

34:39

go to Nashville to visit friends or go to

34:42

events sometimes. And that's a perfect

34:44

shot to like, all right, I've got

34:46

my podcasts queued up. And then sometimes

34:48

I'll pull out specific playlists. But that

34:50

helps me. And that's a

34:52

great point, which is just as we

34:54

all live in these different sensory surroundings,

34:56

it's really useful to think about shaping

34:59

your sensory surrounding. And I used

35:01

to be much more passive, like sort of like

35:03

my surroundings are my surroundings. But exactly what

35:05

you're saying, it's like, we should really think

35:08

about ourselves and what works for us and

35:10

try as much as we can. Obviously, you

35:12

can't control everything to shape it to suit

35:14

ourselves and people are very different. So, we're

35:17

talking about how, as maybe

35:19

feeling jumpy in the car, you like

35:21

to have music or podcasts whereas I feel

35:23

like I feel more comfortable when in

35:25

silence. So it's not that one of us

35:27

is right and one of us is wrong, it's just that

35:30

different approaches work for us. You see this

35:32

in sort of like workplace productivity. Some

35:34

people want silence like me. Some

35:36

people like music, maybe you work to music. Some

35:39

people like my brother-in-law likes a busy home.

35:41

Like he works best in like a coffee

35:43

shop where there's a lot of people talking,

35:45

but it's not like coworkers where he's kind

35:47

of like, what's my boss saying or whatever.

35:49

It's just a chatter. It's just bustle. That's

35:52

what he likes. And sometimes people will listen

35:54

to white noise or pink noise or green noise

35:56

or coffee shop noise or library noise to try

35:58

to get themselves in. the auditory environment

36:01

that helps them to thrive. Once

36:03

you realize and I did

36:06

this like if you have kids you might say turn

36:08

off your music so you can do your homework more

36:10

effectively and your kid says, no I like having new

36:12

music on. No one's right,

36:14

no one's wrong. People really thrive in different

36:16

sensory surroundings and people are often bothered by

36:18

different sensory things and so like if you're

36:20

working with somebody or you're living with somebody

36:23

who's like, wow that smell really

36:25

bothers me or this shirt is so uncomfortable

36:27

I can't wear it. It's instead

36:29

of just dismissing it and saying like what's the big

36:31

deal this is not important or like this isn't

36:33

anything to worry about to think well their

36:35

sensory experience could be very different from

36:37

mine probably is very different from mine.

36:39

If it's a problem for them let's

36:41

figure out how to address it rather

36:43

than saying that there's some kind of

36:46

like this is fine because

36:48

you're like well if it's bothering somebody we need

36:50

to figure that out. I'm

36:52

completely in sync with you about

36:54

the different auditory environments and

36:57

honestly for me I found that

36:59

depending upon the type of work

37:02

it takes so if it's brainstorming

37:04

if it's sitting and just kind

37:06

of pouring over a book like

37:09

yours or sitting there with a big legal

37:11

pad and a cup of coffee in a

37:13

public coffee shop and just writing down all

37:16

the things doing a David Allen brain dump

37:18

kind of approach, perfect for that. Sometimes

37:21

I will play music that has no lyrics like

37:23

from Brain FM and it gets you into

37:25

a brain state of focus. You know puts

37:27

the blinders up like the Clydesdale horses where

37:29

it blinds them and they can't look left

37:31

or right just forward and they focus on

37:33

a task at hand for about you know

37:35

half hour to an hour or even two

37:37

hours. I've done two hours straight just listening

37:39

to music that has no lyrics and is

37:41

designed to do that and then there are

37:44

other times where I will

37:46

play music out of big speakers not big

37:48

speakers but smaller speakers here that are stereo

37:50

that have lyrics and are like uplifting

37:52

and fun and like it's a certain playlist and

37:55

I just say hey I won't say it

37:57

right now but hey thing that plays

37:59

my music. Code word play

38:01

my something something playlist and it's like

38:03

it starts to rock out like it

38:05

with varying degrees and it's a playlist

38:08

and in that moment that is for

38:11

Lifting up my mood getting me like alright.

38:13

Let's get like let's get into this and

38:15

that's like honestly that's like email Really

38:18

like it makes the email fun.

38:20

Right? Right? Well again This is a

38:22

great example of how you can shape your sensory environment

38:24

to support whatever it is that you're trying to

38:26

get done And it you know, I am

38:28

not as I said, I'm not a music person so one

38:30

of the things that I really gained in doing life in

38:33

five senses is I really Tapped

38:35

into my sense of hearing so much more than

38:37

with my natural inclination Like I

38:39

love the sense of smell so I was already doing a

38:41

lot with the sense of smell just kind of on my

38:43

own On in the wild, but it I needed a lot

38:45

of deliberate work to get me into More

38:49

hearing based things which is good because

38:51

as you say, I mean research shows that listening

38:53

to music is one of the quickest Easiest

38:56

ways to intervene in our mood. It can

38:58

give us more energy. It can calm us

39:00

down It can help us deal with pain

39:02

more effectively It can help us synchronize movements

39:04

with other people as you think it just

39:06

make a kind of a dreary Experience much

39:08

more fun as you've done several times in your

39:10

life. What's interesting is all human

39:12

cultures have music It's a universal

39:15

ancient cultural Phenomenon

39:18

there's a lot of debate about why

39:20

that might be why do we all

39:22

have music? It's a super fascinating subject

39:24

within the five senses. It's just like

39:26

the sub topic of music I

39:29

was not such a music person. You

39:31

are truly deeply musics I wasn't so

39:33

there was a lot of low-hanging fruit

39:35

for me to Experiment with because I wasn't

39:37

so sound-focused whereas for someone like you like

39:39

that might be your most appreciated sense It

39:42

sounds like that might be I would have

39:44

to think about that. I mean again, it

39:46

was a revelation to be able to see

39:49

More clearly these last two years than I

39:51

had probably for the previous three

39:54

or four as my eyesight was degrading

39:57

slowly and Unnoticeably by

39:59

myself We talked a little bit

40:01

about sight. We've talked about sound. I

40:03

want to go back to something. You

40:05

talked about the sweet tooth thing and

40:08

obviously one of the senses is taste.

40:10

I'm curious then how somebody

40:12

who's thinking, okay, self experiments

40:14

over the course of a year, one of the

40:17

senses is taste. How did you

40:19

– and I'm going to do air quotes –

40:21

how did you indulge yourself? Because I think some

40:23

people would naturally think, oh, well, she went and

40:25

tasted all these amazing things, lots of them very,

40:28

very sweet. I'm curious in

40:30

light of the context of your sweet tooth and

40:32

the dialing down of – or the turning down

40:34

of the dial, what were

40:36

those taste experiments or savoring or –

40:39

what was those self experiments in terms of taste like

40:41

for you? Well, I have

40:44

to say my most neglected sense

40:46

was taste, which probably is one of

40:48

the reasons it was easy for me to give up

40:50

sweets is because in a way, I'm not a foodie

40:52

and I never have had much appreciation for the sense

40:54

of taste. So again, like hearing there was a

40:56

lot of low hanging fruit for me to go

40:59

after, to like even given that I –

41:01

there's all this stuff that I really stay

41:03

away from to really go deeper into my

41:05

senses. So one thing that

41:07

I did, which I love, I highly recommend,

41:09

and I did live in my no-suite's rule

41:12

for this because it was such a small experiment.

41:14

I had a taste party with some

41:17

friends and so I had friends

41:19

over and we just did taste tests because

41:21

I had gone to Flavor University, which is

41:23

this two-day thing. My favorite thing we did at

41:25

Flavor University is we would do taste tests and there

41:27

we did like different kinds

41:29

of milk, like

41:32

cream, whole milk, 2%, oat milk, nut

41:34

milk, just to see the difference of

41:36

milks, different energy bars. I was

41:38

so excited because when you really notice what

41:40

something tastes like, it's just – it's much

41:42

more interesting than you would think even for

41:44

someone like me who's not a foodie. So

41:47

I had my friends over and we tasted things

41:49

like varieties of apples. We chewed

41:51

on one almond. I was like, just eat one

41:53

almond and really notice it. And people were like,

41:56

this is amazing. What I learned is

41:58

one almond tastes so much better. much better

42:00

than like a handful of almonds because you really,

42:02

really notice it. And it was just fun. It

42:04

was like everybody was laughing and talking. It's just

42:07

like a very, very fun thing to do. I

42:09

had a mystery drink, which turned out to be

42:11

Red Bull. Nobody knew it. People were like, what is

42:13

this? And then I did it with

42:15

myself, like olives. I've always like, I like olives.

42:17

But then I thought there's a million kind of

42:19

olives. Which ones do I like better? I never

42:21

even thought to try to figure it out. So

42:23

I went to the store, got like, it was called Sustable

42:26

Mix. So it was all different kinds of olives. Sort

42:28

of them out, looked them up on the internet, figured

42:30

out their names, and then taste tested them. And

42:33

I'm like, actually, I really like

42:35

the classic Black Olive. I was like, this

42:37

is the most basic thing ever. But that

42:39

truly is the olives that I love and all the

42:41

other olives. I don't like nearly as much. And

42:43

so I had not known that about myself, but

42:46

now I have a real sense of how I stand in the

42:48

great world of olives. And

42:50

it's just fun. It's kind

42:52

of fun to connect with your body. It's

42:54

fun to notice all these subtleties and all

42:56

these distinctions. Try to put words to it.

42:58

And then because I knew myself better, now

43:01

I can make better choices. I'm like, if you

43:03

offer me some olives, I'm going to get a

43:05

Black Olive. The classic is what I like. Sounds

43:07

like a really good start to a charcuterie tray.

43:10

No, exactly. But I mean, and you could

43:12

do this with anything. I mean, charcuterie is

43:14

a great example. Like, you know, it's all

43:16

there. It's like, but they

43:18

taste different from each other. But are you

43:20

just like having one after the other after

43:22

the other, not really registering it? That's a

43:24

great example. And I can never remember what

43:26

things are called. I'm always asking my husband,

43:28

do I like that? Do I like cod

43:30

better or do I like, you know, red

43:33

snapper better? I'm like, OK, start paying attention

43:35

to your own preferences. It was surprising to

43:37

me how little I knew about my own

43:40

preferences. And I've been able to just subtly

43:42

make my life much more pleasant

43:44

and convenient and easy by like I

43:46

didn't know that I didn't like Earl

43:48

Grey tea. I do not like Earl

43:51

Grey tea. I like English breakfast tea. But I

43:53

was sort of haphazardly picking one or the other.

43:55

And now I'm like, how did I not notice that I don't

43:57

like Earl Grey tea? I like English breakfast. So now I

43:59

just. I always get the tea I like. It used to be I

44:01

was sort of like, eh, sometimes it's good, sometimes

44:04

it's not so good. What are you going to

44:06

do? Which sounds bonkers, that

44:09

I would not notice that about myself. But that's why I

44:11

had to write a book like Life in Five Senses, because

44:13

I'm the kind of person who simply

44:15

didn't notice. Well, I

44:17

think what we're getting at here is that, which

44:20

I love about this, this is so just, it's

44:22

kind of eye opening in a lot of ways

44:24

as to why I can continue to do a

44:26

podcast about productivity for 10 years, because

44:29

there's all these different new aspects and digging

44:31

in and applying it in different ways and

44:33

adding in new perspectives. You're saying a couple

44:36

of different things here that I want

44:38

to show how different we are. Hated

44:40

black olives most of my life. However,

44:43

my grandmother would remind me that when

44:45

we were younger, and especially me, I

44:47

would ask for a jar of green,

44:50

as I would call them then, olives,

44:53

green olives in my stocking

44:55

for Christmas. I loved

44:57

them so much. That's hilarious. Right? That's

45:00

hilarious. So there's that. And then

45:02

I love Earl Grey tea. English breakfast is

45:04

OK to me. I will drink it. But

45:06

Earl Grey is one of my favorites. I

45:08

think it has something to do with Captain

45:10

Picard on Star Trek, but that's another story.

45:13

But what's funny is I'm curious. I

45:16

don't know how much of a coffee

45:18

or wine drinker you are. Those

45:20

are the two kind of snobby foods that people like.

45:25

I taste hints of this and that

45:27

and something, something. And it's a very

45:30

big joke on many comedy shows where

45:32

they joke about that. But I

45:34

can't tell the difference. I can tell

45:36

if it's a different flavor when it

45:39

comes to different drinks and things. But

45:41

I can't taste notes of anything in

45:43

those two drinks. Have you

45:45

really tried? See, that I think is maybe

45:47

the issue, is I'd have to try. I

45:49

think I've done it a little bit with

45:51

coffee specifically, where I've tried a

45:53

really small amount. Obviously black. And

45:56

tried a couple different kinds and thought,

45:58

you know. either so subtle I

46:01

can't detect it or I think

46:04

part of it is are you interested when I write about

46:06

neglected sense a lot of it is are you interested enough

46:08

to learn like the more we know the more we notice

46:10

and if you're interested in something you you want to learn

46:12

about it you want to talk about it you read reviews

46:14

and you're you know you're open to information

46:16

and if you're not interested then you don't have that information

46:18

and so you

46:28

don't

46:32

have that information so you don't perceive these

46:34

distinctions and you're not interested so I think

46:36

part of it is I remember

46:39

talking to somebody this is years ago I was

46:41

talking to somebody who like worked in a huge

46:43

copy company I won't say which one but whatever

46:45

you would know it and I was like oh

46:47

I'd love coffee and she goes oh what kind of coffee do

46:49

you like and I was just like black coffee I didn't do the idea

46:51

that you would have nuance I was like oh you know

46:53

I'm not interested. The idea that you would have nuance I

46:55

was like oh that's way beyond me I'm like my sister

46:57

said she likes diner coffee the best that's her favorite

46:59

kind of coffee but I did because I because

47:02

I wrote life in five senses I did allow

47:04

myself to like splurge on some kind of unusual

47:06

items and one is this thing I think it's

47:08

called nay cafe any Z you know which is

47:10

French for no nay cafe and there's

47:12

also nay de vin I think. I'm

47:15

getting the names right and it's a kit

47:17

that you buy that has all the

47:19

smells pulled out so there's like

47:21

potato and melted butter and cinnamon

47:23

and rubber and whatever distilled all

47:25

for coffee so that you can

47:27

smell them isolated so that then

47:29

when you're experiencing coffee it's you

47:31

can kind of pull out that

47:33

note more easily and so if

47:36

you were interested in doing it

47:38

and certainly for wine this is so it's so

47:40

built out you can go deep into it and probably.

47:42

You wouldn't be able

47:45

to perceive much more than you think now because

47:47

you just haven't focused your attention I haven't tried

47:49

to pull it apart I noticed that

47:51

with when we were eating the apples with my friends

47:54

I had a whole list of adjectives so I would say

47:56

to people how does this taste and it would sort

47:58

of grow for words so that I'm like. Is

48:00

it mealy? Is it juicy? Is

48:02

it lemony? Is it floral? Is

48:04

it astringent? And like as you're tasting and

48:06

the words are being suggested to you, you

48:09

start to be able to perceive that nuance

48:11

and be able to, like you say, it's

48:13

like putting the glasses on. All of a sudden there's more clarity. And

48:16

I think this is why the Neglected Sense in

48:18

a way is really fun. I have a quiz,

48:20

Neglected Sense quiz on my website. It's good to

48:22

know it because then just like you, you might

48:24

be like, you know what? I've spent so much

48:26

time on music. It's super fun. But now I

48:28

feel like I want to shake myself up. Why

48:30

don't I take a coffee class with a friend

48:32

and like really just like see what

48:35

I can get out of coffee. Maybe there's more

48:37

there to explore or to enjoy or

48:39

if nothing else, I'll have fun with a friend doing

48:41

something kind of out of the ordinary. Yeah,

48:43

that's a great idea. And I think that's

48:45

right. I think and I will say that

48:47

I do notice like I definitely can tell

48:49

the difference. I'm not a tasting note kind

48:51

of coffee snob, but I'm a beans kind

48:53

of coffee snob, I guess is the best

48:55

way to put it. I buy

48:57

our coffee for our house. My wife can't

49:00

tell the difference. My daughter either. My son

49:02

doesn't drink it. But I buy

49:04

local. It gets shipped in. They roast

49:06

it local. It's really good beans. No

49:08

knock on Dunkin Donuts. Love you Dunkin

49:10

Donuts. But probably should pick a different

49:12

one. Like I'm not going to throw

49:15

any coffee company under the bus. But you

49:17

know, your generic coffee companies that you find

49:19

in a tin at the supermarket versus these

49:21

beans that are high quality and I roast

49:23

myself, I can tell the difference there. So

49:26

I think there's probably a threshold to then go a little

49:28

further. So I think it's a great suggestion to do the

49:30

class. Okay, that's true. But

49:32

here, let me throw this study into

49:34

the mix. Okay, they did a step

49:36

because this again is how your brain

49:39

is giving you information that you want.

49:41

They did a study of I think it was

49:44

college students and asked them

49:46

to rate different coffees and for

49:48

people who were who identified as

49:50

very environmentally conscious. The

49:52

coffee that was labeled like eco

49:54

friendly or green or whatever, they rated

49:56

as tasting better than the rate of the

49:59

coffee. regular coffee. So this

50:01

is how your brain might shape

50:04

your perception based on your values.

50:06

And so it truly tastes better to

50:08

you because your brain is like, this

50:10

is better coffee. Now it also might

50:12

taste better, like objectively because of what

50:14

you're processing or shipping times or whatever.

50:16

But it is also interesting that our

50:18

values can shape our experiences

50:21

in the same way. Oh

50:24

my gosh, I just found out I'm a

50:26

fraud. Anyway. No, no, no. I'm kidding. I'm

50:28

kidding. That's just, it's funny. That's

50:30

exactly right. I love this because it

50:33

may be that there are other

50:35

sensory and as well as internal

50:37

emotional and intellectual factors that are

50:40

bleeding into the way

50:42

we are interpreting that sensory input.

50:45

Oh, absolutely. No, it's like, it's like my

50:47

friend who was like, I saw her and

50:49

she's like, oh my gosh, I

50:51

just smelled some D'Arcarin Noir on this

50:53

subway and it's ruined my whole day.

50:55

That was my ex-husband's cologne. And

50:58

I was like, no, for somebody else, it's

51:01

like, oh, it's my

51:03

first date or whatever. All

51:05

these things carry their own very, very

51:07

personal associations for us. Yeah. There's

51:09

so much power here. And honestly, I

51:12

think we've spent the majority of the time talking here

51:14

on one, the benefits, two, we definitely talked

51:17

to sight, we've talked to sound, we've spent

51:19

some time now on taste. Obviously,

51:21

there's two other senses, touch as

51:23

well as smell. We're talking about smell. We

51:25

won't really go into those now, but there's

51:28

so much, I'm really excited

51:30

to do some more digging

51:33

and again, along the lines of taking the

51:35

coffee class and jumping off points. There's so

51:37

many jumping off points is I guess what

51:39

I'm saying, to really do

51:42

more self-discovery, not

51:44

just for our own personal

51:46

well-being and enrichment, but I

51:48

guess it bleeds into a

51:50

better understanding of ourselves in

51:53

a lot of ways. Again, I talked about the Enneagram

51:55

when we first started talking. This is

51:57

feeding into a better understanding of myself, which then helps

51:59

us out. helps me to understand how I

52:01

interact with the world, which for

52:03

me leads to again a better life which is again

52:05

one of the things that has to do with productivity.

52:08

I want to point people to the quiz

52:11

that you talked about as well as the book. As

52:13

we're talking about this, it's not yet out but as

52:15

this releases, it is. I would love to point people

52:17

to your site to get the quiz and the book.

52:20

Yes, gretchenrubin.com. This is my

52:22

name.com. You can find everything

52:24

about the book. You can read an excerpt. You

52:27

can pre-order it or order it

52:29

depending on when you're listening. You can take

52:31

the quiz. You can sign up

52:33

for my Five Things newsletter. I have a podcast,

52:35

Happy with Gretchen Rubin. You can check that out

52:37

there. I'm all over social

52:39

media as Gretchen Rubin is my handle.

52:41

I love to hear from people because I

52:43

feel like the world is my research assistant.

52:46

Just like you've given me two great examples

52:48

and a reading assignment just talking to you.

52:50

I feel like I get so many ideas

52:52

and resources and observations and questions from

52:55

people. Let me up wherever you

52:57

are. For all things related to

52:59

any of my work, gretchenrubin.com is

53:01

the hub. Awesome. I

53:03

will make sure to link up the site as well

53:05

as I'll link out to the podcast directly and things

53:08

like that. People can find that. Gretchen,

53:10

it's always awesome talking to you. I

53:12

was so glad that this comes around.

53:14

Open invitation, next time, next book, whatever.

53:16

It always fits. They all fit,

53:19

honestly. We're interested in so many

53:21

of the same things. Thank

53:23

you. It's always so much fun to talk to you. Yes.

53:26

Thanks again, Gretchen. Great talking with you as always. Thank

53:29

you. So,

53:31

what did you think? I hope that

53:34

you enjoyed this conversation with Gretchen Rubin

53:36

as much as I did revisiting it.

53:38

I hope you can see why I wanted to revisit it.

53:41

I think there's a lot of power in the

53:43

five senses. I really resonated with

53:46

her and her transformation experience as

53:48

well as that kind of awakening

53:51

one in myself and being more

53:53

aware, I think, this year of

53:55

the way that the five senses

53:57

play into my being. and

54:00

being human and the importance of

54:02

that. I thought that this was

54:04

a perfect time to revisit that and I hope that

54:07

you did too. Again, I hope

54:09

that if this was the second time

54:11

or however many times you've played back

54:13

this conversation, it drove a little deeper.

54:15

It resonated a little more with you.

54:18

If it resonated with you, I'd love

54:20

for you to share this conversation with

54:22

somebody else that you know it will

54:24

also resonate with. Would you do

54:26

me that favor? Hit the share button

54:29

in your podcast player app of choice,

54:31

wherever you're listening to this or again

54:33

head on over to the show notes

54:36

at beyondthetodulist.com. Share it from there. That's

54:38

also where you can send in your

54:41

questions for the mailbag episode coming up.

54:43

All you need to do again is

54:45

while you're there at beyondthetodulist.com, go to

54:47

the top of the page, click contact,

54:50

it'll send me an email with

54:52

your message and you will be

54:55

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54:57

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54:59

contact, send me a message.

55:01

That's all you need to

55:03

do. Thank you again

55:05

for sharing. Thank you for listening

55:08

and I will see you next episode.