0:00

When someone accidentally threw away the school

0:02

play costumes... Oh no!

0:05

...replacements were shipped with FedEx. And with

0:07

picture-proof of delivery, everyone could focus on

0:09

the perfect opening night. FedEx.

0:11

Where now meets next. For residential

0:14

delivery only. Hello

0:32

and welcome back to another episode of

0:34

Beyond the To-Do List. I am your

0:36

host, Eric Fischer, and today I am

0:38

thrilled to share with you a conversation

0:40

I had with Susan Drum. She's

0:42

the author of the groundbreaking book,

0:44

The Leaders' Playlist. Unleash the

0:47

power of music and neuroscience to transform

0:49

your leadership and your life. And in

0:51

this conversation, Susan will share her insights

0:53

on how leaders can use the right

0:55

music to break free from

0:57

patterns that have held them back and

0:59

make meaningful changes in your life. She

1:02

also guides us through the process of

1:05

creating a personalized playlist that serves as

1:07

a pattern interrupter to

1:09

help us shift our emotional and

1:11

thought patterns. So, in this

1:13

conversation, you're going to learn how music primes the brain

1:15

for change and can help us create

1:17

new pathways faster and easier. Then,

1:20

you can understand how to create a playlist

1:22

that represents your desired emotional state and use

1:24

it to interrupt negative patterns. And

1:26

then finally, discover the importance of

1:28

self-awareness, building new neural pathways to

1:31

transform your leadership and create a

1:33

supportive environment for you. You know

1:35

I love music. You know I love the

1:37

power of music. I think you're going to

1:39

love this episode with Susan Drum. Well,

1:43

this week, it is my privilege to

1:45

welcome to the show Susan Drum. Susan,

1:48

welcome to Beyond the To-Do List. Thank

1:50

you. I'm excited to be here with you. Same. Glad to have

1:52

you. And I'm really glad to talk about this. You've

1:55

got a book called The Leader's Playlist and

1:57

then a book called The Leader's Playlist. great

2:00

subtitle, Unleash the Power of Music

2:02

and Neuroscience to Transform Your Leadership

2:04

and Your Life. And there's so

2:07

many different words I'm latching onto

2:09

there, neuroscience for one, music for

2:11

another, and leadership because we talk

2:13

about that pretty often. I'm

2:15

curious, you've got a couple of different degrees, and

2:18

you're coming at this from a

2:20

couple of different approaches or angles,

2:22

but the book right up front

2:24

is called The Leader's Playlist. I'm

2:26

wondering, can you explain what that

2:28

concept is and how the road

2:31

to that in this book and putting it out

2:33

there came to be? Yes,

2:35

I'd be glad to share that. Well,

2:38

after doing leadership development and

2:40

coaching CEOs from all sorts

2:43

of backgrounds, billionaire

2:45

CEOs, high-profile political figures,

2:48

incredible Fortune 100 teams,

2:50

I noticed patterns. And

2:53

we'll get more into why I noticed patterns, but

2:55

here's the pattern I noticed that

2:57

we lead from the child

2:59

within us. So the

3:02

bottom line is we're inherently terrible at

3:04

making changes we know we need to

3:06

make. We've now had, what is it,

3:08

40 years of human potential research

3:10

and learning about what good leadership looks

3:13

like. And we've had 15 years

3:16

of mindfulness and presence-based training,

3:18

and we're still not good

3:20

at doing what we

3:23

know we need to do. And that's

3:25

because we're not good at interrupting

3:27

ourselves and we're not really good

3:29

at creating new behavioral

3:32

patterns. We get

3:34

stuck in ruts and we

3:36

live life like the movie Grandhog Day.

3:39

And the reason that is, is because

3:41

these are patterns that have been deeply

3:43

grooved. They're neural pathways that were built

3:46

in our childhood. And so

3:48

what I noticed about this is,

3:51

you know, everybody I think has

3:53

a superpower, and I think my

3:55

superpower is pattern recognition. It's really

3:57

how I got into Harvard Law

3:59

School. and ultimately became

4:01

this type of leadership coach

4:03

and working with these incredible

4:05

clients. And what

4:08

I've noticed is I've

4:11

been able to help them

4:13

recognize and shift this playlist

4:15

or pattern that's holding them

4:17

back from thriving in their

4:19

business. And why music?

4:22

Well, okay, I have a master's

4:24

in music and drama from

4:26

the London Academy of Music and Dramatic

4:28

Arts, but besides that, I've got a

4:30

degree from Harvard Law School, I worked

4:33

for a Boston Consulting Group, and all

4:35

of that I bring together and developed

4:37

this process that harnesses

4:39

music both literally and

4:41

figuratively to become a better

4:43

leader and a better human. That's

4:46

great. Yeah, I was gonna ask you like,

4:48

okay, we're talking, you know, for clarity's sake,

4:50

for the audience listening in, we're mentioning the

4:52

word playlist, we're talking about music, but we're

4:54

not just talking about it in the literal

4:56

sense, but also in the, I was going

4:58

with metaphorical sense, but also kind of

5:01

the approach of using

5:03

it as an example, in other words. So

5:05

yeah, when I say playlist,

5:07

you have a pattern, but also

5:09

you can use music to interrupt

5:11

that pattern. And you can use

5:13

music to accelerate the kind of

5:16

change that you want to make.

5:18

So it all fits together. What

5:20

I'm really suggesting is when you

5:23

change your playlist, you change your

5:25

life. And now, I'm sure

5:27

you'll ask, well, why music? Like, what does music have

5:29

to do with it? That's an

5:31

interesting combination of music and leadership,

5:33

right? Well, what I discovered

5:35

is music, and there's a ton

5:37

of research out there on this. Music

5:40

primes the neurological landscape to

5:42

form new pathways faster

5:45

and easier. So when

5:47

you use it the right way, you

5:49

can even shift deep seated patterns built

5:51

from childhood that get in our way.

5:54

And the way I'm suggesting you use it

5:56

is you can break free of patterns that

5:58

get us stuck and overwhelmed. and

6:00

frustration because with this new engagement,

6:06

more deep satisfaction for your

6:10

team. Your business will run more and

6:14

be able to build capacity in yourself and

6:18

others and really ultimately what I'm interested

6:22

is achieving a meaningful mission. And the studies

6:24

on music and how it impacts all

6:27

regions of the brain are fascinating.

6:30

If you've ever read anything about

6:32

how music helps Alzheimer's patients or

6:34

those with dementia who are late stage, who are

6:38

unresponsive, they put their favorite music on and

6:41

they literally come alive. There's a

6:43

measurable increase in eye contact, smiling

6:45

and this can be seen on

6:47

an MRI where all regions of

6:49

the brain are lighting up at

6:51

that moment. It literally reinvigorates the

6:53

brain. So what I

6:55

want to do is take this incredible power

6:57

of music and make some of the biggest

6:59

changes we want to make in our lives

7:01

using it. I

7:04

love that. As you're saying that I have a

7:06

personal experience that I actually haven't thought of in

7:08

a very long time. My musical background, which I

7:10

shared a lot of in a previous episode that

7:12

I guested on and then brought over into the

7:14

feed for this show, which I'll link up to

7:17

in the show notes, about the power of music

7:19

and all of that. One of the things was

7:21

that my grandfather had a giant grand piano and

7:23

I would, when I was younger, lay underneath it

7:25

as he was playing and watch his feet

7:28

with the pedals but also see some of the

7:30

things hit and all of that. Well, he had

7:32

Alzheimer's, late stage Alzheimer's, before

7:35

he was being taken care

7:37

of in a facility, he would be

7:39

at home, he would forget other things

7:41

and he would still kind of not

7:43

always be there, but you sit him

7:45

down in front of that piano, he

7:47

would just tear it up. And it

7:49

was so interesting to see how just

7:52

ingrained and part of him that

7:54

was. Yeah, amazing.

7:56

And part of it, what a emotional

8:00

state does it bring him to.

8:02

That's what we're really looking at

8:04

because music is a direct impact

8:06

on our emotions and helps

8:09

us determine what we think about. So

8:11

why not use this power to

8:13

be able to make shifts emotionally

8:16

and in thought patterns? Yeah.

8:18

In other words, what you're saying

8:21

is, is we have these thought

8:23

patterns, neurologically, I

8:25

should say, we've had them since we were

8:28

young, since we were children, as you were

8:30

talking about, and whether they've changed or not,

8:32

due to doing the work

8:34

on ourselves, so to speak,

8:36

or learning, maturing, etc., they're

8:39

still lingering pieces probably, and

8:41

yet that's metaphorically happening. And then

8:43

literally now we can use literal

8:46

music and the power of it

8:48

and the deep seated ability for it to activate,

8:50

regrow, or change pathways, I should say, is

8:52

a better way to put it. You know, somebody

8:55

corrected me a while ago, I kept using the

8:57

phrase muscle memory and they're like, well, technically

8:59

the brain is a muscle, but really it's not

9:01

about your muscles muscles in your body, it's about

9:03

the neural pathways. And I said, thank you for

9:06

correcting me. I am glad to look at it

9:08

the right way moving forward. Yeah.

9:10

So I mean, think about the last time

9:12

you got triggered by something, something just

9:14

got under your skin, and

9:16

it just irritated you. And you

9:19

either stewed about it internally,

9:21

right? Or maybe you

9:23

had an outburst about it as well.

9:25

Like I just had a guy cut

9:28

me off pretty harshly on the highway,

9:30

right? And so these types

9:32

of things, how we're responding and

9:34

where it takes us can

9:37

be what I call your eight

9:39

lane highway to hell, because it's

9:41

almost like it takes off and

9:43

you're already down the path of

9:45

anger, frustration, all this. And

9:47

how long that lasts, you know,

9:50

we want to feel our feelings because they

9:52

give us information, but the problem becomes when

9:54

it becomes a pattern in your life. And

9:56

not everybody can see these patterns. So I

9:58

say, for me, I'm all pattern

10:00

recognition. And so we

10:03

don't even have to go back to your childhood

10:05

to understand where that comes from or what's going

10:07

on there, right? All we need to

10:09

do is look at today and start to look

10:11

at what's the sort of pattern

10:14

that you notice in yourself that you'd

10:16

like to shift, right? And what's happening

10:19

in that? And what emotional state are

10:21

you finding yourself when you're in that

10:23

eight-lane highway to hell? And

10:26

then how can we shift

10:28

that? For some people they can't

10:30

even tell that they're just focused on the external

10:32

world like, well he has failed and he cut

10:34

me off and all that stuff. But

10:37

a lot of times they say, well why

10:39

is that happening to you in the first

10:41

place? Like let's look at what it is

10:43

that has you focused on certain things? Like

10:45

I could have been cut off and be

10:47

like whatever, but for some reason

10:49

in this day in particular I think

10:52

I was feeling frustrated. You know

10:54

my email server went down and I

10:56

couldn't get it working and I wasn't

10:58

getting emails from people and you

11:01

know what a headache that is and then I

11:03

get in the car and I drive this guy

11:05

cuts me off, right? It's all leading to that

11:07

piece. And so I think

11:09

it's important to look at, well

11:11

how do we shift these? They

11:13

just feel like their second nature.

11:15

But they're not actually. They're just

11:17

grooved pathways that have been there

11:19

since again childhood. And we

11:21

can shift them, meaning we can be

11:24

a choice and build another eight-lane super-free

11:27

way to take. But that's hard

11:29

to do normally. That's why change is hard.

11:31

This is where music comes in

11:33

because music will allow us to

11:35

build that new eight-lane highway much

11:38

faster and more efficiently than if we were to

11:40

try to do it without it.

11:43

And so what I'm almost saying is music

11:45

is like a turbo driver or you know

11:47

supercharger to be able to make the changes

11:49

that you need to make or want to

11:51

make in your life. So

11:54

if we are or are

11:56

not aware of those default responses

12:00

that happen, we should be. We should be

12:02

trying to and we may be getting dinged

12:04

for it without even knowing it from other

12:06

people's default responses to our default responses if

12:08

we want to go that way with it.

12:10

But once we start to notice and

12:12

once we're aware, what's that first step

12:15

look like in terms of obviously self-awareness?

12:17

We've identified a change. We've identified getting

12:19

cut off and that being a trigger.

12:22

What's that next step in terms of

12:24

starting to rewire and create new pathways?

12:27

Yeah. And I want to outline

12:29

to your listeners too, I outlined

12:31

the detailed seven steps in chapter

12:34

12 of the book.

12:36

The first two chapters lay the groundwork

12:38

for why our childhood shows up today

12:40

in how we interact

12:43

and why music is a powerful

12:45

tool to shift behavior

12:47

and how it impacts our brain. Then

12:50

I give little mini stories, so there

12:52

are nine of them, about leaders so

12:54

you can get plenty of examples about

12:57

how leaders discovered

12:59

their pattern and then what they

13:01

did to shift it and what playlists

13:03

they use. And you can even download

13:05

that a QR code, you can download

13:07

the actual playlists that they use. And

13:10

the reason I have nine short stories is

13:12

because one of these is probably going to

13:14

resonate with you and I wanted people to

13:16

have choice. And then I take you into

13:18

what is that step-by-step process. So I'm

13:21

not going to go into all of the details

13:23

of it now but I'll just kind of give

13:25

you a highlight through an example. There was a

13:27

leader, she was a chief marketing officer

13:29

for a biotech

13:31

company and she kept getting some

13:34

feedback that she was a little

13:36

too insistent about inserting herself into

13:38

key meetings and would get upset

13:41

when she wasn't copied on certain

13:43

emails and that showed up in

13:45

her 360 feedback. And they're

13:47

like we can't keep her informed about every little

13:49

thing and to her point she's like but I'm

13:51

head of marketing and for me to be able

13:53

to do my job I need to know that.

13:55

Well like that's where we go to we point

13:57

to like but they need to change right? It's

14:00

not me. They need to change. Well, we don't have any

14:02

power over them changing. All we have power over is you

14:04

changing. So let's see what we can do for that. So

14:07

I had her look at what was the emotion.

14:09

This is sort of the first step. First is

14:11

recognize that there might be a pattern that you

14:13

want to shift and I call it you get

14:15

a belly full of something like I don't want

14:17

to have this experience anymore. The second

14:19

step is to really understand when these types

14:22

of things are happening, your own eight-lane highway

14:24

to hell, what are you feeling in

14:26

that moment? I really jot

14:28

down those emotions. For you.

14:30

For this leader, it was feeling frustrated.

14:33

It was feeling angry and she

14:36

really felt like she was basically being

14:38

left out. So then I asked her,

14:40

well, where else in your life does

14:43

this show up where you're feeling angry and you're

14:45

feeling left out? She said, well, when

14:47

my husband, ex-husband, now

14:49

takes the kids to the family

14:52

retreat that I used to go to and I don't

14:54

get to go to on the lake house anymore, yeah,

14:57

I feel angry and I feel left out. Okay,

15:00

where else did that show up? We were able basically

15:02

to trace it back. You know, it happened when she

15:04

didn't get into the sorority that she wanted to get

15:06

in. It happened back in

15:08

childhood because her sister

15:11

was the kind of blonde, pretty one and

15:13

she was the vivacious one and got all

15:15

the attention and nobody

15:18

really paid attention to Deborah, right? She

15:20

was the mousy one. And

15:22

so to some degree she's

15:24

been having this playlist when she could see

15:26

that this isn't just about what's happening in

15:28

this 360 feedback. And

15:30

let me tell you it rarely is.

15:33

I promise you what is occurring that

15:35

is getting under your skin. The

15:37

reason it's getting under your skin is

15:40

because it's been a lifetime of experiencing

15:42

this, right? Get off

15:44

the merry-go-round, I say. So for

15:46

her, she chose a

15:48

song that would best represent that

15:51

to her as a pattern interrupter

15:53

and what she chose was Adele's

15:55

hello. So, you know, the son was like,

15:57

hello. Can you hear me? attention

16:00

to me, pick up the

16:02

phone, right?" And when she

16:04

felt that familiar pattern start up or

16:07

kick up, she wasn't included in an

16:09

email, she found out about something after

16:11

the fact, she could

16:13

go, oh, there's Adele again. And

16:16

I had her really listen to that music

16:18

and get in touch with like the feeling of like

16:20

what does it feel like to be on the other

16:22

side, like where Adele was in that, like that's a

16:24

horrible feeling. So just recognize that

16:26

you ignited that. And the next step

16:28

then is to build the new neural

16:30

pathway. Okay, what do I want to

16:32

shift that to and start

16:35

practicing shifting that. And

16:37

for her, we got really clear what is

16:39

it she wants to experience instead, she

16:42

wanted to experience peace and

16:44

appreciation. And she came up with

16:46

a new playlist title called I bring

16:48

peace and appreciation. And

16:51

so the literal part is she created

16:53

a playlist of songs that helped

16:55

her be in that emotional

16:57

state, practice that emotional state.

16:59

Because the more you can practice it,

17:02

the more you can access it when you really need

17:04

it. And that's the pathway building.

17:06

So we did all sorts of things, which

17:08

I won't get into, there's information in the

17:10

book about how she did that. But

17:12

it really transformed how people treated

17:14

her. But it first transformed

17:17

how she responded to what was happening

17:19

in the external world. And therefore, people

17:21

treated her differently as a result of

17:23

that. Interesting. It's a

17:25

great story. And I think we all

17:27

can kind of find some way of

17:30

resonating, I'll use resonate because that's almost

17:32

like music, right? Yeah,

17:34

we're humming at the same vibration

17:36

that the other person is, in

17:38

other words. And so I can

17:40

find myself in that I can

17:42

see myself there. I'm curious, then,

17:44

you know, what kind of you

17:46

talked about the Adele song, is

17:48

it just finding that one song

17:50

to kind of acknowledge and or

17:52

sit with or immerse yourself in

17:54

that awareness? Is it just acknowledging it?

17:56

Like, how far do you want to go once you

17:59

have that self awareness? and you have that

18:01

first kind of song, so to speak,

18:03

how long do you stay there and

18:05

or do you keep that just to

18:07

kind of acknowledge it before moving

18:09

on to creating a full-blown playlist?

18:11

And I'm sure there's a whole

18:13

bunch more going along with crafting

18:15

the air quotes perfect playlist for

18:17

you moving forward. Yeah,

18:19

I mean, what we want to do, it's

18:21

a patterned interrupter. So you have to notice

18:23

that you're on the eight lane

18:26

highway to hell and take the first exit. And so

18:28

this is a way for you

18:30

to think about how you take the first

18:32

exit on that. And it helps

18:35

to recognize that it is a pattern,

18:37

that this is a normal pathway that

18:39

you've experienced many times before. I had

18:42

her listen to that song, like just really get the

18:44

groove of understand it, but it's not like you have

18:46

to go play it or not unless you feel like

18:48

that's what's needed to shift it. Now,

18:50

when I say all this, it's not to

18:53

say, oh, feelings of anger or frustration, we

18:55

should never feel them. That's not

18:57

the case. And that's never going to be the case.

18:59

In fact, we want to feel our

19:02

feelings because they have important information. Usually,

19:05

let's say anger, it lets us

19:07

know that a boundary has been crossed so

19:10

that we can take appropriate action to

19:12

reestablish the boundary. So I'm

19:14

not suggesting that we want to just not

19:16

feel the feelings, we want to recognize them

19:18

and take the appropriate action that needs to

19:21

be taken. But what I

19:23

am talking about is when you're stuck

19:25

in a recurring pattern over and over

19:27

and over, and you keep experiencing

19:30

the anger train, that's

19:32

what I'm talking about. So

19:35

for that, if we want to shift the

19:37

pattern and make it not feel like Groundhog

19:39

Day, yes, we need to spend some

19:41

time with it and understand where it comes from

19:44

and decide is there a boundary that needs to

19:46

be reset and how will I do that? But

19:49

really, you want to build an

19:51

alternative highway. I

19:53

want to tell you about something that has

19:55

supported me in my productivity for years now,

19:57

my uplift desk. I'm just shy now. of

20:00

the five year mark of using my Uplift

20:02

Desk, and I like to think of those

20:04

times as before and after my Uplift. So

20:07

I'm thrilled that they're supporting me now like

20:09

they always have by sponsoring the show. And

20:11

you can benefit too by visiting upliftdesk.com and

20:14

using code BEYOND for 5% off your order. If

20:17

you sit all day while you're working and

20:19

you've never tried a desk that transitions between

20:22

sitting and standing, it is a game changer.

20:24

That was the main reason that I got

20:26

it, but it has so many more benefits.

20:28

Not only is there tons of space,

20:30

not just for working, but for storage. You

20:32

can build your dream desk like I did.

20:34

I got it because I wanted to get

20:36

up more, get out of my chair, and

20:38

that's what this does. It helps me get

20:41

up and away from the desk without having

20:43

to leave my desk. I can stand and

20:45

even walk while at the desk. I just

20:47

ordered a desk treadmill to go with my

20:49

desk from Uplift so I can move more

20:51

while I'm working because I noticed that I

20:53

do some of my best work while walking

20:55

and thinking and talking things out into notes.

20:57

I'm really excited to set it up and

21:00

start using it, and in fact,

21:02

I will probably use it while

21:04

recording that experience for you to

21:06

hear next time. All of that,

21:08

and they give you free shipping,

21:10

free returns with free return shipping,

21:12

which honestly sometimes is rare, and

21:15

I love that it is the

21:17

industry-leading 15-year warranty that was a

21:19

lot of my decision that covers

21:21

the complete desk. You cannot go

21:23

wrong with Uplift Desk. Go to

21:25

upliftdesk.com and use code BEYOND for

21:28

5% off your order. That's U-P-L-I-F-T

21:30

desk.com to get 5% off

21:32

your entire order with promo

21:34

code BEYOND. Think

21:37

about some of those famous business partners

21:39

who got it done, like Ben and

21:41

Jerry and Procter & Gamble, but there's

21:43

one more perfect pair out there that

21:45

you haven't named, and that's you and

21:47

Shopify. Shopify

21:49

is the global commerce platform that helps you

21:51

sell at every stage of your business, from

21:53

the launch your online shop stage to the

21:56

first real-life store stage, all the way to,

21:58

did we just get a million? and from

22:08

their all-in-one e-commerce platform to their

22:10

in-person POS system, wherever and whatever

22:12

you're selling, Shopify's got you covered.

22:14

Shopify helps you turn browsers into

22:16

buyers with the internet's best converting

22:19

checkout, up to 36% better compared

22:22

to other leading commerce platforms. And sell

22:24

more with less effort thanks to Shopify

22:26

magic, your AI-powered all-star. What I love

22:28

about Shopify is how, no matter how

22:31

big you wanna grow, Shopify gives you

22:33

everything you need to take control and

22:35

take your business to the next level. Shopify

22:38

powers 10% of all e-commerce in

22:40

the US and Shopify's the global

22:42

force behind Allbirds, Rothies, and Brooklinen,

22:44

and millions of other entrepreneurs of

22:47

every size across 175 countries. Plus,

22:50

Shopify's award-winning help is there to

22:52

support your success every step of

22:54

the way. Because businesses that grow,

22:56

grow with Shopify. Sign up for

22:58

a $1 per month trial period

23:00

at shopify.com/beyond, all lower case. Go

23:02

to shopify.com/beyond now to grow your

23:05

business, no matter what stage you're

23:07

in. Go to shopify.com/beyond.

23:13

I have used Ecamm to record this

23:15

podcast ever since the beginning. At first,

23:17

I used Ecamm's Skype call recorder, but

23:19

I briefly moved away to use Zoom

23:21

and it just didn't work out as

23:24

well. So I ended up switching over

23:26

to Ecamm Live and haven't looked back.

23:28

And Ecamm is running their Cyber Weekend

23:30

sale from Black Friday through Cyber Monday.

23:32

Go to ecamm.tv slash beyond to save

23:35

40% on an annual plan. You can

23:37

use that link to lock in the 40% off discount year

23:40

after year for as long as you're

23:42

subscribing to Ecamm. Again, that's

23:44

e-c-a-m-m.tv slash beyond for

23:46

40% off year after

23:48

year. And

23:51

Ecamm makes video so easy. Whether

23:53

you're podcasting, live streaming, recording

23:55

a course, creating short videos for social,

23:58

I use Ecamm Live to record. every

24:00

episode of this podcast and guests comment

24:03

on how much they love it. And

24:05

when I use it for other projects,

24:07

people ask me what I'm using to

24:09

make it look so professional. Ecamm is

24:12

your video sidekick. With Ecamm, you're going

24:14

to be able to produce your podcast,

24:16

record a course, livestream, create epic short

24:18

videos for your social, make your Zoom

24:21

calls look so much more professional, and

24:23

create and record the best presentations. Again,

24:25

Ecamm is running their Cyber Weekend Sale

24:27

from Black Friday through Cyber Monday. Go

24:30

to ecamm.tv slash beyond to save 40%

24:32

on an annual plan. Use

24:34

my link to lock in the 40% off

24:36

discount year after year for as long as

24:38

you're subscribing to Ecamm. Again,

24:41

that's ECAMM.TV/beyond for 40%

24:43

off year after year.

24:49

Now, I can't help but think that some

24:52

people listening in are thinking, this sounds great,

24:54

but also I feel like maybe there's some

24:56

work here to be done in terms of

24:58

professional therapy and counseling that would play a

25:01

part in all of this. Can you speak

25:03

to that? Well, sure. A

25:05

coach or therapist can help you with this

25:07

without a doubt, right? And I'm giving you some

25:09

examples and I'm giving you ways in which you

25:12

can do it. But I've had people

25:14

who weren't working with that be able to

25:16

kind of recognize, I think it's about your

25:18

level of self-development and growth, right? Some people

25:20

will be able to do it on their

25:22

own. Some people will need a coach

25:24

to help them or a therapist to help them. You

25:27

know, I wanted to make it accessible for

25:29

anyone because I believe it is possible to

25:32

recognize patterns and then to start to say,

25:34

what do I want to create instead? I

25:36

mean, that should be your ability to do

25:38

so. Now,

25:41

as far as getting to that point, like

25:43

what does crafting the playlist look like? We've

25:45

talked in half an hour, talking an hour,

25:48

because songs have various lengths. Like I'm a

25:50

fan of the movie High Fidelity where he's

25:52

talking about making the perfect mixtape to get

25:54

a girl to like him. You

25:56

want to start off here and then you want to crank it up, but then

25:58

you want to back off a little bit. bit and so you

26:01

know I'm already kind of there with that

26:03

mentality but I'm curious what your approach is

26:05

with this. My approach

26:07

is to choose at least ten songs

26:09

that you have that best represents the

26:11

new emotional state that you want to

26:13

be in and based on

26:15

that what are songs that have you

26:18

feel whatever that is is it gratitude

26:20

is it joy is it energized is

26:22

it confidence and choose one

26:24

that's your anchor song

26:26

and like I said the old playlist there was an

26:29

anchor song she also had

26:31

a bunch of other songs in the old

26:33

playlist just it wasn't just Adele right but

26:35

she had her anchor song of Adele and then you have the

26:38

new song that's your anchor that you can

26:40

kind of go to when you really need it but

26:42

you're also practicing you know

26:44

not when you're in the ring so to

26:46

speak practicing and listening to that music and

26:49

the thing about it is the reason you

26:51

want more songs is the

26:53

brain likes variety right and after a while

26:55

you're gonna need to switch out some new

26:57

songs right because what you want

26:59

to notice is what is the music

27:01

doing to you is it having you

27:03

stay in that emotional state or practice

27:05

to the best of your ability practicing

27:07

that emotional state and if

27:09

the songs are too tired now then

27:11

you gotta find some that fit in

27:13

that's why we gave lots of examples

27:15

and suggestions through this downloadable QR code

27:18

for people to see what other people

27:20

use you're like oh yeah that song

27:22

you know I think that's helpful for

27:24

people do you think there's

27:26

a place for multiple playlists because

27:28

I believe that to go

27:30

back to your original example of yourself

27:32

and getting cut off in traffic and

27:34

whatever that issue is and where that

27:37

comes from childhood etc to be blunt

27:39

we all have multiple issues we

27:42

all have multiple pathways that aren't

27:44

probably the pathways we should have

27:46

anymore in terms of being mature

27:49

and handling the world and relationships

27:51

well so it seems like there's

27:53

multiple opportunities for playlists that

27:55

help with creating the new pathways we

27:57

want to create yeah Look,

28:00

my view is change is hard enough.

28:02

Choose one to start with and just

28:04

focus on that. And once you've mastered

28:06

that, then you can go on and

28:08

create a new one. So I can give you an

28:10

example of how I've done this since I've been doing

28:12

this for a while in my own life. My

28:15

old playlist was I Am Treated

28:17

Unfairly. And there were

28:19

lots of examples in my life and

28:21

people would externally look at some of

28:23

the things that happened and saying, yeah,

28:25

and more this happened. It happened a

28:27

little bit in my professional career, early

28:29

stages, but more in my

28:32

personal life. And I was

28:34

able to shift using a

28:36

playlist called I Am Empowered. And my anchor

28:38

song was Bruno Mars, 24 Karat Magic. It

28:42

was like, you know, the song that

28:44

would just be like, it's anything but

28:46

being treated unfairly, right? And my old

28:48

anchor, old playlist song was

28:51

Jarve Hearts by Christina Perry, right?

28:54

Just sort of like really wounded. And

28:57

so when I felt myself going back

28:59

to the frustration and resentment

29:01

and this sort of feeling unfairly, I knew

29:03

as a coach that wasn't a loop that

29:05

would serve me. I could use 24 Karat

29:07

Magic to switch me out of it. I

29:09

was kind of sick of going down that

29:11

path, put it that way. And

29:13

the more I use, this is how I

29:15

discovered this technique, by the way. The more I

29:17

use it, the more I could interrupt that pattern

29:19

that what I knew wasn't serving me, but I

29:22

was like, oh, it's not like you can help

29:24

yourself. You know the feeling, like you just can't

29:26

help yourself. Anytime, like, you know, I had some

29:28

betrayal and anytime the name would come up, like

29:30

there I was going down that path again, right?

29:32

And I was like, oh, oops. So,

29:35

Brutal Mars and my empowered

29:37

playlist was transformational and me

29:39

being able to be a choice and not

29:41

have to go down that path anymore. And

29:44

once I was complete with that, one of

29:46

the things that I started really exploring and

29:48

I created a new place, and when I

29:51

say complete with it, it's not that old

29:53

playlist. I could still access it at any

29:55

time. When that person cut me off, I

29:57

was accessing. I'm being treated as a... again,

30:00

right? Because it's fair. It ain't

30:02

going away. But in the moment,

30:05

I have the choice to quickly shift

30:07

out of it using music, right? And

30:09

catching myself. So when you built

30:11

an equal sized eight lane highway, and you

30:13

want to tackle other things, then go to

30:15

the other things. And the next one for

30:18

me was really about self love. And so

30:20

I built this playlist called I am the

30:22

love of my life. And it

30:24

was all songs that really had me be enjoying

30:27

appreciation for who I was. So that's

30:30

an example of how you can start to move

30:32

it. But I really encourage not to try to

30:34

do too many of ones because look, it's hard

30:36

enough to do. Let's let's get some wins.

30:38

Right, right. Well, and I can't help but

30:41

think going back to the title of the

30:43

book, it's called the leaders playlist. So as

30:45

a leader, taking agency

30:48

in our own lives, and whatever that

30:50

means, we all have multiple roles. At

30:52

this point, we're all wearing tons of

30:54

hats. It's ideal that we do

30:56

this with ourselves. But I'm curious,

30:59

some people look at leadership and think,

31:01

I'm leading others, and they're looking outward,

31:03

and they're noticing other people who are

31:06

following pathways that they probably shouldn't be

31:08

and, you know, maybe having default reactions

31:10

to that, etc. I'm curious,

31:14

if as a leader, noticing

31:16

this in my teammates, how do I,

31:18

you know, without forcing it on them,

31:20

give them the help that they need,

31:22

give them the space, give them the

31:25

suggestions, bring them to the water and help

31:27

them drink. By first doing

31:29

your own work, honestly. I mean, think

31:31

about the dog whisperer, or if you've

31:34

ever heard of equine therapy, where

31:37

you literally go in the ring

31:39

and you by your energy are

31:41

able to shift the horse's energy.

31:43

You buy your energy, as you

31:45

saw, Caesar, he could ship that

31:47

dog's energy. We're no different. We're

31:50

also being human beings like that.

31:52

So your only

31:54

agency is often your cell

31:57

and shifting your energy. So I would

31:59

always was why the leaders play with this,

32:01

like start there. And then there's

32:03

lots of different things you can do. I mean, that's

32:05

why I'm in the field of leadership development. So it's,

32:07

you know, how do you coach others? How

32:10

do you use powerful questions? How do you

32:12

delegate more effectively? How do you inspire?

32:15

Those are all different workshops and modules that we

32:17

offer. But this is a place where the leader

32:19

needs to do their own work. I

32:21

think others are probably thinking, okay, you

32:23

know, this is a productivity podcast and,

32:26

you know, we measure things and we

32:28

get to certain benchmarks. I'm

32:30

curious if you, you probably had people have

32:32

said, you know, how much is enough? How

32:34

do I know I've, you know,

32:37

quote, gotten there or healed enough

32:39

or whatever you want to call it? I

32:41

mean, you gave the example, it never really

32:43

fully goes away. What's an arrival point,

32:45

so to speak for us? It's going to be

32:47

different for everybody probably, right? Yeah,

32:50

for sure. I mean, we never arrive. We're

32:52

always a work in progress, right? You know,

32:54

I love this phrase, you'll

32:56

never get it done and you'll never, you know, at

32:59

the end of the day, it's what's the next level

33:01

of growth? But to answer your

33:03

question, you know, what was the new

33:05

place you wanted to feel? Like for instance,

33:08

in Deborah, she wanted to feel more peace

33:10

and appreciation. Is she feeling that more often

33:12

in her life? Are you

33:15

feeling more joy? Are you feeling

33:17

less frustration? That's your

33:19

indicator. Yeah, and so

33:21

it's, again, it plays back into self-awareness.

33:23

The original catalyst for even acknowledging and

33:25

noticing that there was a path and

33:28

change that needed to happen, it's

33:30

a kind of a gut thing in a way, isn't it? Yeah,

33:33

yeah. But you might also get people

33:36

sharing, wow, you seem different. I've had

33:38

so many people say, wow, your energy

33:40

is so different now, right? They'll give

33:42

you feedback. Just like the dog

33:44

gave the dog whisperer feedback, or if

33:46

you're in the ring with the horse,

33:48

the horse is going to give you

33:50

feedback exactly where you're placing your energy.

33:54

Well then, so I go back to, again,

33:56

you talk about the leader doing the work

33:58

on themselves first, and then... they

34:00

provide that energy to

34:02

the others around them.

34:05

And then obviously other than the leader giving

34:07

a copy of the book, how

34:10

do they foster an environment

34:12

where this kind of change

34:15

and vulnerability and transparency can

34:17

happen? Well, certainly you could

34:19

lead a discussion to share what the shift

34:21

was for that leader, right? What were they

34:23

working on? How did they do it? And

34:26

then if there's enough trust in

34:28

the team or maybe these are in one-on-one

34:30

conversations, have the other person

34:32

start to identify what's a pattern that you

34:34

might want to shift and maybe

34:37

you can think about it. Or if there's

34:39

a good relationship, the leader can say, here's

34:41

a pattern I notice that may be showing

34:43

up for you. What do you notice about

34:45

that? Right? And it's just a

34:47

let's have a dialogue about that. Sometimes

34:50

we need other people to tell us that

34:52

there's this pattern going on, right? Sure,

34:54

your spouse could tell you plenty of

34:56

the patterns that get in the way of your

34:59

relationship, right? And so sometimes we need a little

35:01

bit of a mirror holding up and that's also

35:03

what a coach just does. Yeah,

35:05

yeah. And you mentioned like having a 360 review.

35:09

It's going to be based on, you know, you're

35:11

not going around to strangers saying, hey, I noticed

35:13

that this happens all the time with you, even

35:15

though you were just acquaintances. It's more of a

35:18

there's a relationship that has whatever the high enough

35:20

level of trust to be

35:22

able to feel like you can speak

35:24

in. And if they don't have the

35:27

self-awareness yet, you can notice the pattern

35:29

and kind of tactfully and carefully

35:32

in a kind way, pointed

35:34

out without holding their head straight

35:36

to it, point to it and just lightly

35:38

point to it enough that they feel like,

35:40

you know, call attention to it, in other words. Yeah.

35:43

But notice what needed to be there as

35:46

a precursor is the leader

35:48

needing to create relational safety by

35:50

first sharing and being vulnerable about

35:52

their own patterns and what they've

35:54

been working on to shift it.

35:56

That opens the door for the

35:58

other person to think about. about what their pattern may

36:01

be. So leading by

36:03

example, another great attribute of a leader. Exactly.

36:06

That's another pathway. Look,

36:09

we all see the patterns that everyone

36:11

else is doing, right? We do. I'm

36:13

sure any leader right now could tell, like, you know, oh,

36:15

he needs to ship this, and he needs to ship this.

36:18

And what I say is you've gotta start with you because

36:21

you won't be able to be powerful

36:23

in helping the other person see those

36:25

patterns without you first walking the talk.

36:29

Well, I know that we probably made

36:31

people aware of this, maybe

36:33

some for the first time, and some are

36:35

thinking, I wanna dive deeper on this. One,

36:38

we can point them where to go and get the book,

36:40

but also where to go to find

36:42

out more about you and the work that

36:44

you're working on, and maybe even get a

36:46

little bit more of the science and the

36:48

leadership aspects of it on your site. So

36:50

where can people find out more? Yeah,

36:53

they can just go to susandrum.com. It's

36:57

s-u-s-a-n-d-r-u-m-m.com. Yes,

37:00

my last name is drum, like the

37:02

instrument, only with two Ms. But

37:05

all this music, it's, I don't know how that

37:08

happened. But you can go there, and there's a

37:10

free quiz there that says

37:12

what's your path to enlightened leadership?

37:15

And it'll ask you, Joe, I think there's

37:17

only like seven or eight questions there and

37:20

it'll give you some idea of what

37:22

the pattern may be for you. And

37:24

again, seven or eight questions,

37:26

it's a door opener, but it might

37:28

show you what your superpower is and

37:30

a potential liability of what

37:33

that eight-lane highway might look like for

37:35

you. Great, I will

37:37

link that up in the show notes and

37:39

everybody will be able to go find that

37:41

without having to remember it, although it's not

37:43

hard to forget. So Susan, it's been great.

37:45

I can't wait to see kind of the

37:47

impact that this approach

37:49

will help people who honestly

37:52

probably have been struggling with

37:55

bad habits, and yet this is a

37:57

true way to really dig underneath. and

38:00

inside of and get to the root

38:02

cause and really do some profound change.

38:05

Yeah, that's what I'm here for. This

38:07

is my mission and I believe we

38:09

are only scratching the surface of what

38:11

music can do. So excited to

38:13

bring this to your listeners and hope they

38:15

start to take a deeper look and be

38:17

empowered to make the changes that they want

38:20

to make in their lives. Awesome.

38:22

Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank

38:24

you. Well,

38:26

that's another podcast crossed off your listening to

38:28

do list. I hope that you enjoyed this

38:30

conversation with Susan drum and started to get

38:32

an idea of what's going on your playlist

38:35

or multiple playlists that you would like to

38:37

create. Make sure to grab the

38:39

book over at the show notes at beyond the

38:41

to do list.com or wherever you're listening to this.

38:43

That's also where you can do me the favor

38:45

of sharing this episode with somebody that you know

38:48

needs to hear it. Hit that share button wherever

38:50

you're listening to this or again over on the

38:52

show notes at beyond the to do list dot

38:54

com. Thank you so much for sharing. Thanks

38:57

again for listening and I will

38:59

see you next episode. Bye.

39:27

Bye.