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5% off your entire order with

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promo code BEYOND. Hello and

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welcome back to Beyond the

1:26

To-Do List. I'm

1:42

Eric Fischer and this is the podcast

1:44

about helping you not just be more

1:46

productive, but to find the real meaning

1:48

of productivity, living a meaningful life. This

1:51

week I'm excited to bring back to the show Todd

1:54

Henry, he's the founder of Accidental Creative,

1:56

a company that helps creative people and

1:58

teams be prolific. Brilliant and

2:01

healthy at a moment's notice. He's

2:03

a popular speaker, he consults with

2:05

companies, and honestly the thing he's

2:07

most known for that he's been on

2:09

the show for the most is

2:11

his books. So many to mention. The

2:13

accidental creative, Die Empty, Louder Than

2:15

Words, Herding Tigers, The Motivation Code, Daily

2:18

Creative, and now a new one,

2:20

The Brave Habit. A guide to courageous

2:22

leadership. And in this conversation, that's

2:24

what we're talking about. We're breaking down

2:26

that new book. We're talking about

2:29

the practical applications of The Brave

2:31

Habit and the transformative power that taking

2:33

brave actions in everyday life can manifest.

2:35

First and foremost, we talk about what

2:38

is The Brave Habit? What does that

2:40

mean? And there are five components.

2:42

It's an acronym, B-R-A-V-E. And

2:44

then we talk about why this book

2:46

is connected to his second book, Die

2:49

Empty. We also differentiate between the words

2:51

bravery and courage. There's a lot of

2:53

semantics there. There's some nuance there. And

2:55

The Brave Habit is more than just

2:57

sucking it up and being like tough

2:59

in a moment and doing the right

3:01

thing and just doing it like Nike

3:04

style. It's a lot more about cultivating,

3:06

as the word habit indicates, a

3:09

normal way of doing things

3:11

with an optimistic vision, having

3:13

agency in one's life, applying

3:16

that brave habit to leadership. And

3:18

that leadership word doesn't just mean

3:20

leading others. It also has a

3:22

lot to do with leading yourself.

3:24

I know that if you're a fan of Todd Henry and

3:26

his previous books, you're going to love this one too. In

3:29

fact, this one kind of underpins and complements

3:31

all of those previous books.

3:34

So enjoy this conversation with

3:36

Todd Henry. Well,

3:39

this week, it is my privilege to welcome

3:41

back to the show Todd Henry. Todd, welcome

3:44

back to Beyond the To-Do List. Man,

3:46

I Feel like I have been on your

3:49

show so many times. I'm like a co-host

3:51

at this point. You could be. I Was

3:53

just thinking, as I was kind of retrospecting

3:55

about how many times you've been on, I

3:57

realized you were first on. Where

4:00

have you You done? The Accidental Creative,

4:02

the Podcast obviously and the book that

4:04

the name comes from. But it

4:06

was really die Empty that started your appearances was

4:08

like oh Time Henry As a new book it's

4:10

called die Empty and I'm I'm not gonna jump

4:13

into what it's all about just yet, but. That.

4:15

Was ten years ago. That. You

4:17

started that night, started the show eleven

4:19

this years ago now so very early

4:21

days and then you consistently shown up

4:23

over and over and over again and

4:25

it's been great having you in. One

4:28

of things I realized as I was

4:30

going through your new book: The Brave

4:32

Habit a guide to courageous leadership. I.

4:34

Saw parallel am scared. Call it out his

4:36

last time that John a Calf was on

4:38

the show and we both know him a

4:41

bit. He was talking about the books your

4:43

New Playlist which was the book his daughters

4:45

wrote and he kind of cobra with them

4:47

and and edited but they really wrote it.

4:49

but it was based off his soundtracks book

4:51

and as I was going through that book

4:54

much like going through the Brave Habit that

4:56

you have I realized oh, this is the

4:58

book they wanted to write for a long

5:00

time and you've even said so in some

5:02

of the marketing materials and I've seen. Like

5:04

the underpinnings in the ethos of your approach

5:07

to how you do what you do. Finally

5:09

kind of in full spotlight. I think that's

5:11

the best way I can put it doesn't

5:13

ring true for you. It

5:15

does that mean other working on this book

5:18

for seven years since two thousand and sixteen

5:20

I guess it's almost eight years I guess

5:22

now. or twenty twenty four between twenty three

5:24

is why wrap the book That works out

5:26

for about seven years and it was kind

5:28

of was a slow burn and and in

5:30

that times you know like I release the

5:32

end this on your show talking about louder

5:35

than words and then hurting tigers and in

5:37

the movies and code and then daily korea

5:39

that phrase to like I've had four books

5:41

come out since I started working on this

5:43

book in the background. In the reason was.

5:46

Something it always bothered me about that book

5:48

Die Empty that you mention in it's that

5:50

I when I release the blood of release

5:52

It It did well. It was read all

5:54

over the world. I get speak about all

5:56

over the place. but there is something I

5:58

kind of overlooked in that book that bothered

6:01

so much that I actually change the way

6:03

I spoke about that book. I changed my

6:05

my speeches to incorporate the topic of bravery

6:07

because I realized I'm telling people to do

6:09

the same. She'll go confront the forces that

6:11

keep you in the places of sadness. the

6:14

in your life. For these places we slip

6:16

into mediocrity. Well how do you do that?

6:18

Well You do that through brave, accept you

6:20

do it to. What does that even mean.

6:23

I mean telling people go do brave things

6:25

isn't really helpful unless you help them have

6:27

some handles for that looks like. So this

6:29

book really has been simmering on the back

6:31

burner for like seven years and I didn't

6:33

wanna just put the book out by pits

6:36

that actually when we pitched the movies in

6:38

code which was and twenty team and it

6:40

was has between verse in the movies in

6:42

code and portfolio my publisher decide to go

6:44

to movies in code that was when they

6:47

when the me to pursue at the time

6:49

for that pitch this one and daily creative

6:51

and my publisher said now let's. Go with

6:53

the early creative race I've I've sort of been

6:55

working on this book in the background has a

6:57

pitching is and we had a publishing offer for

6:59

this book and I was like i think I'm

7:01

disconnected Do this when on my own that the

7:03

comes gonna put on my own because I want

7:05

to have some flexibility a about how long the

7:07

book is. You know it took me seven years

7:09

to get it down to one hundred fifty six

7:11

pages and oh sees the opposite like he sees

7:13

the longer you have the more you would right?

7:15

But actually to be a long time to really

7:17

get these ideas down to their essence and be

7:19

I wanted to just be able to like share

7:21

this in whatever form. I. Wanted and put it

7:24

in the world in whatever way I wanted

7:26

to not have to worry about you know,

7:28

getting some buddies permission to do that. which

7:30

you can have to do if you're publishing

7:32

with a traditional publisher and so yeah so

7:35

it's feather really weird long process blaze of

7:37

very gratifying process to take that much time

7:39

on the book and then to so the

7:41

be putting it out the way them putting

7:43

it out. So. To couch

7:45

it in the oh, it's the

7:48

missing piece of die Empty. Let's

7:50

take like thirty seconds a minute

7:52

and just recap. For me, die

7:54

Empty because I remember seeing you

7:56

talk about it. The analogy are

7:58

the metaphor the of the graveyard

8:00

where the ideas are essentially don't

8:02

take your grades, work to the

8:04

grave, live out loud at Exeter,

8:06

etc which people see. Go read

8:08

I am them to saints and

8:11

by. But

8:13

it's to couch that context of

8:15

the Brave habit. What's the essence

8:17

of Dmt? essentially? The. Essence of

8:19

Diane to is that most people slip

8:21

into a place of mediocrity without even

8:23

knowing it That were mediocrity comes from

8:25

two words in the original language Media

8:28

meaning middle and oh Chris meaning rugged

8:30

mountains. So they get have we ever

8:32

rugged mountains they say as close enough

8:34

I'm in a subtle and most people

8:36

don't do that by choice. Most people

8:38

do that because they encounter one of

8:40

seven forces. In the seven forces are

8:42

aimless, busy, boredom, comfort, delusion, ego, fear

8:44

and guarded this which is when we

8:46

become close up the others and so.

8:49

And I am the early right about

8:51

you to the seven forces, the seven Deadly

8:53

sins I call them and how they

8:55

can cause of unknowingly unwittingly like even the

8:57

best, most talented people's metics often is

8:59

is the best. Most talented people who settled,

9:01

media sucrose, who sell and the mediocrity

9:03

because they're relying on their talent to

9:06

get them through their relying on their instincts.

9:08

You know they're past their history to

9:10

get them through. The reality is you kiss

9:12

you from the hip, your tallow get

9:14

you in the game be your practices, keep

9:16

you at the table. And so it

9:18

takes. bravery, To confront the forces, the

9:21

seven deadly sins and the reason his

9:23

bravery is because you have to do

9:25

counter cultural things to confront them. counter

9:27

intuitive things. In some cases you have

9:29

to invest your time. You have to

9:31

invest your energy in order to overcome

9:33

them. You're not just spend it doing

9:35

the most convenient are comfortable thing And

9:37

so I know that some of that

9:40

probably sounds obvious and intuitive to see

9:42

the smart people that listen to your

9:44

show. All Grangers another yo self help

9:46

book about how the not be comfortable

9:48

Good as. Your comfort zone. But

9:50

the reason the things seem obvious

9:52

is because bird the truth to

9:54

the reality is we crave comfort.

9:57

As human beings, we want the

9:59

most comfortable. path. And

10:01

there's nothing wrong with comfort. But

10:03

you cannot choose comfort at the

10:05

expense of doing great work. You

10:07

can't choose comfort at the expense

10:09

of producing value. In the end,

10:11

that's a path that leads to

10:13

regret. In The Brave Habit, I

10:15

quote Khalil Shabran, who wrote, Verily,

10:17

the lust for comfort murders the

10:19

passion of the soul and then

10:21

walks grinning in the funeral, right?

10:23

The lust for comfort murders the

10:25

passion of the soul. I think

10:28

that's true. Our love of comfort

10:30

murders our own soul,

10:32

our own passion. And then it sort

10:34

of mocks us at the funeral, right?

10:37

Being brave, as I described it in the

10:39

book, doesn't make us superhuman. It makes us

10:41

fully human. It brings us live. And so

10:43

that's really why I wanted to write this

10:45

book was to be sort of almost like

10:47

the activation guide for some of what I

10:50

wrote about in Die Empty. Now,

10:52

the title, The Brave Habit, obviously a

10:54

lot of productivity people that can latch

10:56

onto that word of habit and say,

10:58

well, wait a second. If it's habitual,

11:01

if it's something I can habitualize, if

11:03

I can make it a thing that

11:05

I do regularly, then it must be

11:07

somewhat skill level. It must be something

11:09

that someone can teach me that I

11:11

can learn and that I can then

11:14

execute with practice. And I love that

11:16

you position it that way. Yes,

11:18

absolutely. And here's why. There's been a

11:21

lot of talk about courage in culture

11:23

recently, a lot of books written about

11:25

courage and a lot of motivational

11:27

speeches about how to be courageous. And that's

11:29

great. I mean, I think all those messages

11:31

are really important. I mean, what C.S. Lewis

11:33

wrote that courage is every virtue at its

11:35

highest point or something. And I think that

11:37

all of that is true. I got that

11:40

quote terribly wrong, I'm sure. But that's

11:42

the essence of it, right? And so courage is

11:44

certainly something to be aspired to. And I

11:47

love that it's become a topic of discussion.

11:49

My problem is this. Eric, if

11:51

I tell you, go be courageous,

11:54

that's like telling you, like, Eric, go be

11:56

a couple inches taller, or Eric, go jump

11:58

a little higher. or Eric, you know,

12:01

your eyes need to be a little

12:03

bluer, right? Like, how do you tell

12:05

someone to go have an

12:07

attribute, you know, to have courage

12:09

or to be courageous? Because it

12:11

seems like something you feel, right?

12:14

And so that's always been my issue with that word.

12:17

Whereas, if I see

12:19

you do something, it's really easy

12:21

for me to say, Eric, that was really brave.

12:23

What you just did, that was very brave. And

12:25

so in the book, what I basically do, how

12:27

I draw that distinction is, I

12:29

believe that bravery is the active form

12:31

of courage. Bravery is courage put into

12:33

play in a moment where we either

12:35

have to rise to the occasion or

12:37

we have to shrink into cowardice. It's

12:39

really easy then to say, like, were

12:41

you brave or were you a coward?

12:44

You know, it's easy to sort of distinguish between those

12:46

two things. I think most of us in our honest

12:48

moments, if we were asked that question about a critical

12:51

point in a meeting, where maybe we bit our tongue

12:53

and we didn't say what we wanted to say, or

12:55

where we knew we had an idea we could share

12:57

and we chose not to because it was easier,

12:59

or when we were in a difficult moment

13:01

in a relationship and we know that we

13:03

could have been the bigger person and reconciled,

13:05

but instead we chose just to let the

13:07

other person stew in bitterness or whatever. If

13:09

I ask you, okay, were you brave in

13:12

that moment or were you a coward? Most

13:14

of us would be able to kind of

13:16

answer that question if we were being really

13:18

honest with ourselves. Whereas if I said, were

13:20

you courageous or not? It's like, well, I

13:22

don't know. Like, that feels a little more

13:24

ineffable. So that's kind of where I draw

13:26

the line in the book and

13:28

the reason I called it the brave habit is

13:30

because it's my strong belief based upon the

13:33

research I did for this book over many

13:35

years that bravery is something we can train

13:37

ourselves to engage in, that we can actually

13:39

train ourselves to respond with bravery, but it

13:42

requires, just like anything else, I spent most

13:44

of my life in my career working with

13:46

creative pros, right? It's a very similar thing.

13:48

We tell people, hey, go be creative, okay?

13:51

How do I do that? Well,

13:53

you build practices in your life to prepare

13:55

you for those moments when you need to

13:57

be creative and then you've trained yourself to be

13:59

creative. creative in the moment. That's how you do it. That's what

14:02

I teach people how to do. Bravery

14:04

is the same way. You can't make

14:06

yourself brave, but you can train yourself

14:08

to be likely to respond with braver

14:10

instincts in the moment by getting ahead

14:12

of those moments and by sort of

14:14

teaching yourself some practical skills. And so

14:17

in order to do that, you have

14:19

to understand the mechanics of bravery and

14:21

when brave action is more likely to

14:23

occur than when it's not. I

14:26

like the distinction between the two words and

14:28

it makes me think of often the distinction

14:30

that language can bring. When we think of

14:32

the word love and how these days, oh,

14:34

the word love means

14:36

lots of different things, but back in the

14:38

day, they were just different words that mean

14:40

different nuance to the word love. And

14:43

so it's almost like courage

14:45

is the feeling part of love,

14:48

whereas bravery is the action part

14:50

that hopefully you get to that

14:52

point where you've habitualized continual showing

14:55

up and you talk about the

14:57

word agency, which I love later in the

14:59

book. I think there's another word that people

15:01

might mistake in the midst of courage and

15:03

bravery and there's multiple words, but they all

15:06

kind of mean the same thing. Some people

15:08

would mistake bravery for if we're thinking just

15:10

action, they're thinking, oh, I do whatever I

15:13

want. It's not

15:15

just boldness. It's not just

15:17

bravado. It's strategic and it's

15:20

decisive, but it's again, habitual.

15:23

Yes, and that is the distinction I make

15:25

in the book. Some people, some of the

15:27

advice out there is similar to

15:29

something like, just go do it. Take

15:31

the leap. Why have you not already

15:33

done it? Just go cut off the

15:35

relationship. Just go leap into the business,

15:37

quit your job, do the thing. That

15:39

is terrible advice in a lot of

15:41

circumstances. Now, there are maybe some people

15:44

for whom that's really good advice, right?

15:46

Because maybe they are holding on a

15:48

little too long and they're afraid to

15:50

be brave. But for a lot of

15:52

people, that's terrible advice. That's

15:54

bravado. That's boldness. That's

15:56

not necessarily bravery. Bravery

15:59

calculates Bravery is strategic. Bravery

16:01

understands. And this is part of what I

16:03

get into in the book is the two

16:05

kind of qualifying characteristics of brave action. Where

16:07

brave action likely occurs is that you have

16:10

an optimistic vision of the future. So you

16:12

have a clear vision of the way things

16:14

could be, a better possible future. And you

16:16

believe you have some agency to be able

16:18

to bring it about. Meaning that you believe

16:20

you have the capacity to move whatever it

16:23

is toward that vision of a better possible

16:25

future. Some people make a

16:27

bold leap into the unknown and they

16:29

call themselves brave. And

16:32

I'm thinking no, actually in some ways,

16:34

that's a form of cowardice. Because you're

16:36

absolving yourself of responsibility for the outcome,

16:38

right? If I just make a bold

16:40

leap into the unknown, oh, I can't

16:42

be held accountable for what happens. I'm

16:44

just look at how brave I am.

16:46

I'm making a leap. No, people who

16:49

act bravely understand the consequences and they

16:51

act in spite of the consequences. They

16:53

understand what they're doing, what they're getting

16:55

themselves into and they position themselves for

16:57

success. And then they make that calculated

17:00

brave leap. But I think

17:02

we often mistake that. We think like in order

17:04

to do something great, I have to be bold.

17:07

Sometimes, but not necessarily, right? So I

17:09

think it's important that we, as

17:11

you said, we have to use our words

17:13

very carefully. Same thing

17:15

with bravery versus heroism. I

17:19

think we often conflate these things. We

17:21

think bravery is running into a burning

17:23

building and rescuing someone. Yeah, that's certainly

17:25

brave, but I would really sort of

17:27

skew that more toward the word heroic,

17:29

right? Because you're doing it at risk

17:31

of life and limb. But it's also

17:33

brave when somebody says something in

17:35

a meeting that maybe other people aren't going to

17:37

like, but they know that this is the right

17:39

perspective and they know they need to share it.

17:41

Well, that's a brave thing to do because you're

17:44

risking something. You understand the cost, but you're doing

17:46

it anyway because you think that there's a better possible

17:48

future and you're claiming agency to bring it about. That's

17:50

brave as well. For some people, it's brave to get

17:52

up on the stage like you're going to do at

17:54

the conference that you're going to, right? To get up

17:57

on stage and share your insights. For some people, that's

17:59

what we're doing. would be a really brave

18:01

thing. You and I, I mean, I get

18:03

on stage in front of thousands of people

18:05

all the time, right? Like for me, that's

18:07

no longer a brave thing. But for some

18:09

people, that would be like their biggest fear

18:11

and to get up on stage and share

18:13

their ideas would be very brave, right? So

18:15

it's a sliding scale. We have to recognize

18:17

that. And the reason this is important, Eric,

18:19

because some people might be thinking like, okay,

18:22

yeah, okay, fine. Hey, bravery. Okay, I'm on

18:24

board with that, right? But here's the thing.

18:26

We don't live our

18:28

life, right? Our life

18:31

is comprised of moments. And

18:34

how we respond in specific moments

18:36

at points in time in our

18:38

life is going to determine

18:40

the arc of our life in

18:42

general. So when we look back on our

18:44

life, we're not going to see a whole

18:46

pie of things that we did. We're going

18:49

to think about specific moments. And the moment

18:51

if you ask people what they regret the

18:53

most at the end of their life, and

18:55

I've talked to a lot of people about

18:57

this, because again, I wrote the book, Diambi,

18:59

right? If you talk to people what they

19:01

regret the most in their life, it's typically

19:03

not when they stepped up and made a

19:05

brave choice and failed. It's usually

19:08

those moments when they knew what they

19:10

needed to do, but instead they chose

19:12

the cowardly path, they chose the path

19:14

of comfort, the path of least resistance,

19:16

they chose to run away instead of

19:18

moving forward, right? That's what people regret

19:20

the most. And so

19:22

what I'm trying to do in this

19:24

book is help people understand the significance

19:26

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19:28

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19:30

get the next promotion or whether your

19:32

project succeeds. Yes, those things are important.

19:34

What I'm really trying to help people

19:36

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19:39

you look back, those moments

19:41

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19:43

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19:45

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19:47

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19:50

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23:03

mention the word agency. I think people

23:05

are wondering Okay, well if I want

23:07

to start habitual icing this and I

23:09

want to feel like and want to

23:11

feel like I have more agency, I

23:13

want to have more agency in my

23:16

life now. Can we develop that agency

23:18

in our lives and can get past

23:20

this sense of powerlessness that we sense

23:22

in ourselves. Yes, It or

23:24

three core elements of agencies I talk

23:26

about in the book. By the way,

23:28

agencies a fascinating topic is one day

23:31

I I really I dove into this

23:33

is why to the salon Great this

23:35

book because I kept pulling these threads

23:37

in our discover some guy who wrote

23:39

about all this stuff and it all

23:41

this research back in the early eighteen

23:43

hundreds of my coffee. Ninety to read

23:45

everything that guys ever written as I

23:48

would discover like in this case with

23:50

the workers our Bindra you know who

23:52

was a phenomenal researcher and psychologists. and

23:54

discovered old his work on agency them like us not

23:56

going to read all his stuff a read his studies

23:58

and read the outcomes of So when

24:00

we talk about agency, we're really talking about

24:03

three core things. We're talking about our proficiency,

24:05

which means our skill set, our capacity to

24:07

personally execute what we're trying to execute. We're

24:09

talking about the people in our lives, our

24:11

relationships, because we don't always have to be

24:13

able to do things ourselves if we know

24:16

other people who can help us accomplish what

24:18

we're trying to accomplish. And we're talking about

24:20

our platform, which is our ability to amplify

24:22

whatever it is we're trying to do, you

24:24

know, our reach. So to show

24:26

you how this might play out, like let's say that

24:28

I'm really concerned about something happening in some part

24:31

of the world. Listen, I'm really concerned about

24:33

the war in Ukraine right now, right? Because

24:35

I'm concerned about that. I have very little

24:37

platform to influence that. There's very little that

24:39

I could do, even with the reach I

24:42

have with my podcast or with my books

24:44

or with my speaking, like I could use

24:46

all of that. And there's very little that

24:48

I could do to influence what's going on

24:50

in Ukraine right now. But

24:53

there are things within my sphere of

24:55

influence that I can have tremendous impact

24:57

over. So when I talk about agency,

25:00

what I'm talking about is understanding the reach

25:02

that you have, the capacity you have to

25:04

actually bring about your vision of a better

25:06

possible future in your life and in your

25:09

world. The way we develop that is like

25:11

we develop anything else. There are some specific

25:13

phases we go through as we grow in

25:15

our creative expression or

25:17

our career, whatever that looks

25:19

like. We typically begin by copying other people.

25:21

I'm sure, Eric, when you started your podcast,

25:23

you probably had a set of people that

25:25

you could listen to and you probably were

25:28

like kind of copying their

25:30

style a little bit, right? Like

25:32

trying to find or maybe when you're writing, like you

25:34

sort of copied some other people. I know I certainly

25:36

did that in the early days. I really wanted to

25:38

sound like Ira Glass when I started out. So I

25:40

was like talking like NPR and trying to, you know,

25:42

and then I found my own voice, my own style,

25:44

my own thing. And that's

25:47

what I call divergence. That's the innovation phase

25:49

of your growth and you start to become

25:51

known for a thing. And that seems like

25:53

a wonderful place when you become known for

25:55

a thing. It seems like that should be

25:57

the best part of your career, but it's

25:59

actually a very dangerous part of your career, a

26:01

very dangerous part of your life. Because what happens

26:04

when you become known for a thing? You

26:06

start protecting that thing. You start circling the

26:08

wagons. It becomes all about preserving the thing

26:11

that you've built. And if

26:13

we want to continue growing, if we

26:15

want to continue developing our agency, we

26:17

have to be willing to continue to

26:19

develop our skill set, which means going

26:21

all the way back to the beginning,

26:23

maybe copying and incorporating some other skills

26:25

from other people and developing those skills

26:27

and continuing up the growth curve and

26:29

being willing, if necessary, to fail our

26:31

way to growth. But most

26:33

people, when they become successful, don't do that.

26:36

Most people, when they become successful, when they become

26:38

known for a thing, it becomes all about preserving

26:41

the thing they've become known for. And

26:43

so they circle the wagons. If you're up

26:45

for it, I'll give you an example of how this is playing out

26:47

in my life right now, in my business. Peal back the curtain, man.

26:50

Yeah. So as I was

26:52

writing this book, I was asking all kinds of really brave

26:54

questions of people and challenging them to

26:56

do brave, authentic things with

26:58

their work and make brave decisions and

27:01

claim your agency and establish your vision

27:03

and all that stuff. And one of

27:05

the questions I started asking myself was,

27:07

if I were to start accidental creative

27:09

all over again, like I did 18

27:11

years ago, would I be doing things

27:13

the way I'm doing them right now?

27:16

And I thought about that a lot. And

27:19

the uncomfortable answer I came to was, no,

27:21

I wouldn't. I would be doing things

27:23

very differently if I were starting over today. Well,

27:25

the next logical question, Eric, is, well, then why

27:27

are you doing them that way if you wouldn't

27:29

be doing them if you were starting over? And

27:32

I realized the reason I'm doing them that way is

27:34

because it's pretty dog uncomfortable. It's

27:36

pretty dog unconvenient. I've got all these

27:39

sponsors and all these people listening. And

27:41

I've got this platform that I've built

27:43

over all these years and these millions

27:45

of downloads every year. And we're monetizing

27:47

that with advertising. And it's really comfortable.

27:50

But I knew I had a different vision of

27:52

the future. I knew that there was a way

27:54

that things could be better. And so I had

27:57

to make some difficult decisions. And one of those

27:59

decisions was... completely and you and I

28:01

have been talking a little bit behind the scenes about

28:03

this because you've kind of been seeing this coming. I've

28:05

kind of been queuing you in on I think I'm

28:07

doing some pretty major overhauls here. So

28:09

I ended up basically driving a semi-truck through

28:12

18 years of work. You know, I had

28:14

thousands of back episodes that are now just

28:16

gone. They're just they vanished. They're gone. You

28:18

can't find them. We started over with episode

28:20

one of the podcast and we renamed it

28:23

from accidental creative to daily creative because if

28:25

I was starting over, would I call it

28:27

accidental creative? That's the opposite of everything I've

28:29

been teaching for the last 18 years. Why

28:32

would I call it accidental creative? So we

28:34

renamed it daily creative because that's what we're

28:36

aspiring toward is being creative every day, you

28:38

know. We started over with episode one

28:40

and we moved it to a storytelling format,

28:43

more of a narrative, a fully produced narrative

28:45

format. I also knew that we talked about

28:47

agency that I can't do this on my

28:49

own. I mean, you know how hard it

28:52

is to produce an interview podcast, let alone

28:54

one where you're trying to develop a narrative

28:56

arc and you've got production and music and

28:59

multiple stories and interviews and all that. I

29:01

knew I was going to need to increase

29:03

my people element of my agency. So I

29:05

brought in somebody who I knew is really

29:08

great at story to help out. You know,

29:10

I needed to do that to claim that agency. I had

29:12

somebody in my network. I was like, great, this is part

29:14

of my agency. I have a person in my network who's

29:16

really great at this. I'm going to bring him in and

29:18

make him a partner in this new effort, let him produce

29:20

the show. But the thing is, I

29:22

had a vision. I knew it was

29:25

right. The easiest thing to do would be just to

29:27

stay where I am and just keep

29:30

milking what I've built for as long

29:32

as I can. But I also knew

29:34

that I could not be a brave,

29:36

authentic voice challenging people to do brave

29:38

work unless I was willing to be

29:41

a brave, authentic voice doing brave work

29:43

in my own business. And so we've

29:45

completely reinvented everything that I've been doing

29:47

for 18 years. And it's scary.

29:51

And to the point of failing your way to growth, I'm

29:53

sure we're going to put out some clunker episodes at some

29:55

point. I think the ones we've done so far have been

29:57

pretty good. But at some point, we'll probably put out a clunker.

30:00

or two and that's just part of learning,

30:02

that's part of growing and figuring out how

30:04

to get there. And the risk of that

30:06

is A, we're

30:08

forgoing advertising revenue, which is

30:11

basically a really good salary for someone

30:13

is what we're forgoing every year in

30:15

order to do this. Because we got

30:17

rid of the back catalog. As you

30:19

know, that's like millions of downloads a

30:21

year of monetizable podcast content. We're forgoing

30:24

that because it can't be there

30:26

side by side with what we're doing now. And

30:28

the other risk is people aren't going to like it

30:30

because I've been doing a thing for a while. Well,

30:33

that's a very real risk. People might leave, but it's

30:35

the right vision. I know it's the right vision. It's

30:37

where I want to go. It's where I want to

30:39

take my work. And that's something I'm just going to

30:42

have to brave through if that's the case. So that's

30:44

an example of how these principles have been playing out

30:46

in my own life and my own work. And I

30:48

think we all have to ask those dangerous

30:50

questions. Sometimes we don't ask them because we don't want

30:52

the answer. Speaking of vision, I know

30:55

that there's again, you can only see out so

30:57

far, literally and

30:59

figuratively. But when

31:01

people say vision, often some people will hear

31:03

that word and they'll think, oh, the way

31:05

that I think and feel about the future

31:07

or my perspective, again, language and interchangeability here.

31:09

But when it comes down to it, there's

31:12

an uncertainty when you're talking about all of

31:14

this. There's no certainty. You don't know. Again,

31:16

it's the scary stuff is you don't know

31:18

if people are going to like it. You

31:20

don't know if doing away with what worked,

31:22

air quotes, is the right choice. But

31:24

you have to test the theory and you have to move

31:27

forward. And in the book, you

31:29

talk about cultivating an optimistic

31:31

vision as part of bravery and

31:33

the brave habit. How does that

31:35

play into this for you? So

31:39

you have to have a belief that

31:41

there is a better possible future. That's what

31:44

optimistic vision is, right? When you lack that,

31:46

when you have a pessimistic view of the

31:48

world, it's very difficult to act bravely because

31:50

your belief is even if you believe you

31:53

have agency, if you don't have a better

31:55

vision for a better possible future, you don't

31:57

have some vision you're living within. pointless.

32:00

Why should I act? Why should I

32:02

be the martyr that throws myself on

32:04

the spear when it's not going to

32:06

matter anyway? And so you

32:08

have to have that belief. And I don't

32:11

care what it is. In the face of

32:13

uncertainty, and let's face it, Eric, we are

32:15

facing more uncertainties on more fronts, I think,

32:17

than I've ever experienced in my lifetime in

32:20

terms of the global economy, in terms of

32:22

politics, in terms of business. And think about

32:24

just how business is being disrupted by AI

32:26

and all the potential ramifications of that. And

32:29

a lot of people listening to this

32:31

are probably creative pros like I am, and probably thinking

32:33

like, am I going to have a job in three

32:35

years? Or am I going to be taken over by

32:37

a robot? What's going to happen? There

32:40

are a lot of things right now, a

32:42

lot of questions that we're asking. And so

32:44

in order to navigate through that, we have

32:46

to have a vision for what a better

32:48

possible future looks like for us so that

32:50

we can continue acting in a meaningful way.

32:52

If we don't, if we just

32:54

succumb to the pessimism that the world often wants

32:56

to draw us into, it's going to be really

32:59

difficult for us to act bravely in

33:01

those moments that matter. Now, I

33:03

know that the part of the title

33:05

that some people will think should

33:07

be a bigger maybe component of the book

33:09

or that it might be what they're looking

33:11

for as they come in, they latch on

33:13

to the last word of the subtitle, leadership.

33:16

And they think, oh, this is about being

33:18

a brave leader. Well, it is

33:20

and it isn't. It's about being a brave

33:22

leader of yourself, first and foremost. And I

33:24

think that's basically the first half

33:26

plus of the book. But then you

33:28

get into kind of the herding tiger,

33:30

daily creative side of things where it's

33:32

not just about you, it's about you

33:34

involved in a team or you leading

33:36

a team, you doing that

33:38

work consistently, but doing it bravely.

33:41

So let's talk about that. Let's

33:43

take this brave habit and apply

33:45

it to not just the daily

33:47

work that you're doing yourself, but

33:49

how you apply it and how

33:51

it starts to connect and even

33:54

multiply the impact of bravery on

33:56

a team and others as you're

33:58

connecting with other humans. and

34:00

other people. You caught something

34:02

really important there because the original

34:04

subtitle was a guide for courageous

34:06

leaders. And that noun

34:08

leaders was something that several people including

34:11

I sent it to the editor of

34:13

the Accidental Creative, my first editor David

34:15

Moldauer. And he said, I think you're

34:17

limiting yourself by putting that noun leaders.

34:20

And I want to say Seth Godin

34:22

actually gave the same feedback. We actually

34:24

ended up changing the subtitle to a

34:26

guide to courageous leadership

34:29

because regardless of whether you're

34:31

the noun leader, everyone

34:33

has to exhibit leadership in their life.

34:35

Whether that's leadership in your community, in

34:37

your family, on your team, with

34:40

your peers, even in your own work. Everyone's

34:43

accountable for exhibiting leadership in some

34:45

capacity. And so the core

34:47

of the book, the last several

34:49

chapters really, once we sort of get beyond

34:52

the theory of it is, okay, how does

34:54

this play out in practice? What does this

34:56

look like? What are some brave things? What

34:58

does brave leadership look like in an organization?

35:00

What do brave teammates look like? What does

35:03

brave work look like? And

35:05

it's some principles that I think people often,

35:08

they would say that brave work is, take the

35:12

bold risk with your ideas or

35:14

take the bold risk with your

35:17

client conversation. That's not really what

35:20

I'm encouraging people to do. It's

35:22

things like own your words and

35:24

actions. That might be the

35:26

bravest thing you can do, but to actually

35:28

stand in front of your team and say,

35:30

I'm going to own my decisions. I'm a

35:32

person of consequence, which means that everything I

35:35

do has consequence. And I'm going to own

35:37

the consequences of my words, my actions. As

35:39

a leader, that means a leader of a

35:41

team. That means putting your resources where your

35:43

mouth is. That's a brave thing

35:45

to do. Many leaders I encounter, I

35:47

work with tons of teams, Eric, and

35:49

many leaders I encounter frustrate

35:51

the heck out of their team because they talk

35:54

a big game. They love to cast a big

35:56

vision, but then when it comes down to it,

35:58

they're not putting resources behind. the things

36:00

that they say matter, right? Instead, they're hedging

36:02

their bets because they don't want to be

36:05

caught in case they're wrong. They don't want

36:07

to end up, you know, getting in trouble

36:09

over making a commitment that they shouldn't have

36:11

made. And so their team is like, I

36:14

don't feel like I can trust anything you

36:16

say, because you're telling me one thing, but

36:18

then I see you doing another thing. And

36:20

so what does bravery look like in those

36:23

circumstances? It looks like leaders actually backing up

36:25

their words with action, with resources, actually supplying

36:27

their team with what they need. What does

36:29

brave leadership in an organization look like? It looks

36:32

like speaking candidly to your

36:34

team and advocating on behalf of

36:36

the organization and its priorities, and

36:38

speaking candidly with your leadership and

36:40

advocating on behalf of your team,

36:42

and not being afraid to do both

36:44

leaderships about being in the middle. It's

36:46

not about being on top. Everyone thinks

36:48

leading is being on top, but every

36:50

single leader in every single circumstance reports

36:52

to someone. They have someone they're accountable

36:55

to. Even the CEO has to report

36:57

to the board. The board has to

36:59

report to the shareholders, right? Think

37:01

about the way the US government is set up,

37:03

right? We have checks and balances on every branch

37:05

of government. Everybody reports to someone regardless of where

37:07

you are. And so brave leadership in an organization

37:10

looks like I am going to speak candidly with

37:12

my team, and I'm not going to ask them

37:14

to do something that I'm not willing to resource

37:16

and put my full effort and belief behind. And

37:19

I'm going to turn around and do the same

37:21

thing with my organization, and I'm going to be

37:23

willing to speak to the organization when I think

37:25

they're not being fair to my team and make

37:28

sure that I'm fighting for what my team needs

37:30

in order to do their best work. So

37:32

on an organizational leadership level, that's what it

37:34

looks like. On an interpersonal level, it looks

37:36

like being the first to step up and

37:39

resolve a conflict. I am willing

37:41

to be the first person to say, hey,

37:43

I'm going to be humble enough to come

37:45

and have this conversation because our relationship is

37:47

more important to me than being right. And

37:50

so I'm willing to have this conversation. I'm

37:52

going to enter into the difficult conversation with

37:54

you and make sure that there's nothing between

37:56

us because if there's something between us, that's

37:58

just more important. complexity we have to jump

38:00

over in order to even do our work

38:02

because now I know we've got this tension

38:05

between us. Let's just resolve it. It doesn't

38:07

matter. Let's just resolve it and move beyond

38:09

it so that we can actually do some

38:11

stuff together, right? These are things

38:13

we don't think of as bravery. We think we

38:15

always think the big projects, the big initiatives, but

38:17

more often than not, it's the small things, the

38:19

small moments, the little ways in which we're compromising

38:22

integrity that we have to focus on. Speaking

38:24

of the small moments that ties into

38:26

the word habit in the brave habit,

38:28

that it's habitualized, that it's incremental,

38:31

that it's small, consistent

38:33

actions, what are some

38:35

of those brave habits

38:38

that we can start to habitualize?

38:40

What are those building blocks that

38:42

make it to where we are

38:44

living this out consistently? So

38:47

the brave habit, as I described in

38:49

the book, is comprised of five steps,

38:51

B-R-A-V-E, and it is literally a

38:54

habit. It's something that you can habitualize, you

38:56

can ritualize in your life. Twyla Tharp in

38:58

her book The Creative Habit, which I only

39:00

just now made that connection that it's the

39:02

creative habit, the brave habit, right? But

39:04

she wrote about how every morning as a choreographer, she

39:06

would go to the gym for a workout. So she

39:09

would get up, she'd put her clothes on, she'd go

39:11

down, hail a cab, go to the gym, do her

39:13

workout. And she said, the ritual

39:16

isn't doing my workout. The ritual is hailing the

39:18

cab, because I know if I hail the cab

39:21

and get the cab, I'm going to do my

39:23

workout. The cab is going to take me to

39:25

the gym, I'm going to do my workout. So

39:27

the ritual is hailing the cab. And in the

39:30

same way, if we rely on our instincts and

39:32

those moments when we have to be brave, we're

39:34

going to fail. We're going to succumb to comfort.

39:36

We're going to succumb to the easy path. Instead,

39:40

we have to get ahead of those moments. And

39:42

so B-R-A-V-E is the method that I challenge

39:44

people in the book to do. B

39:46

stands for block, which is block time,

39:48

which I'm sure most of your listeners

39:51

are very comfortable with that terminology. But

39:53

block time to review the uncertainties

39:55

in your life, to look at those places in

39:57

your life where you feel some tension, where you

39:59

feel that sort of little gut clench where

40:01

you're like, I know I'm gonna have to do

40:03

something here. I don't know if I'm really comfortable

40:06

with it. Block time to review it. The second

40:08

part, the R is review. Review those tensions. Review

40:10

areas of tension in your life, uncertainty in your

40:12

life. Where in my life am I a little

40:14

bit less than comfortable with my relationship? Where am

40:17

I a little bit less than comfortable with my

40:19

work where maybe I'm being challenged to do something

40:21

I'm not really comfortable doing or where I'm being

40:23

challenged with something that feels a little beyond my

40:26

capacity and is gonna require bravery in order for

40:28

me to do it? So review. Review all

40:30

of those areas of your life, your meetings, your

40:32

tasks, your projects, all of that. A

40:34

is agency. Claim agency in each

40:37

of those areas. Okay, I might be nervous

40:39

about walking on stage and giving a speech.

40:41

Let me review why I am perfectly able

40:43

to do that. Let's look at all the

40:45

reasons in my life why I have the

40:47

agency to be able to bring about a

40:50

better possible future in that circumstance. V

40:52

is vision. What is my vision

40:54

for that area? What is the better possible future

40:56

that I'm trying to bring about in that area

40:59

of my life or that relationship or that task

41:01

or that project? And then E is express. Express

41:03

an intent. What is my intent? What is the

41:05

outcome I am committed to in that area and

41:07

what am I going to do this week in

41:10

order to bring about that better possible future? So

41:12

if I have a challenging relationship with my manager

41:14

and I know I need to have a difficult

41:16

conversation with my manager this week, right? Block

41:19

time. I review that relationship. What are my touch

41:21

points with that manager this week? Where are the

41:23

moments likely to be where I'm tempted to

41:25

succumb to cowardice but I know I need to

41:27

have a difficult conversation? All right, agency.

41:29

Let me review difficult conversations I've had in

41:31

my life. What have made some of them

41:33

really good? What have made some of them

41:36

really difficult? What do I need to exhibit

41:38

in order to claim agency in this? Do

41:40

I have the capacity to have this conversation?

41:42

Yes, I do, right? Vision. What is my

41:44

vision for what a healthy relationship with my

41:46

manager will look like on the

41:48

other side of this conversation? And then

41:50

E, express. What is my intent? When am I going

41:52

to have the conversation? What am I going to do

41:55

if the opportunity presents itself? Well, I'm choosing ahead of

41:57

time that I'm going to rise to the occasion. I'm

41:59

not going to succumb to that. the cowardice, right? So you're

42:01

preparing yourself for those moments before they

42:04

arrive. And that way, you're not relying

42:06

on that fight or flight

42:08

instinct in the moment. Instead, you've already determined

42:10

what you're going to do when that opportunity

42:12

arises and you're much better poised to act

42:15

bravely in the moment when it does. The

42:18

acronym strikes me as prompts or

42:21

journaling prompts, if you will. And it

42:23

could be daily, like daily creative, or

42:25

it could be weekly. It could be

42:27

just, hey, this week, you know, forward

42:29

casting or retroactively looking backwards. How

42:31

do I think I did? It

42:33

could be all of the above.

42:36

That's just one way that I

42:38

kind of see this integrating onto

42:40

some other ritualized practice that gets

42:42

it into a regular rotation. A

42:44

hundred percent. We actually created a print workbook for

42:46

this book that's available. I mean, you can buy

42:49

it wherever you buy your books. The reason we

42:51

did that is because of that very thing, right?

42:53

The back half of the entire workbook, the first

42:55

part walks through all the individual chapters, but in

42:57

the back half, it's like 50 pages of just

42:59

like worksheets where you can work through the brave

43:02

habit on a weekly basis and sort of review

43:04

all the areas of your life and what agency

43:06

you need to develop, what agency do you already

43:08

have? You know, what's your vision for each of

43:10

these areas? And that's exactly what you described. It's

43:13

there for that reason to help people engage

43:15

in that habit, that ritual consistently.

43:17

Now, ideally, we would get to this sooner

43:20

rather than later and start getting entrenched

43:22

in a good way into this process. But

43:24

I know that you had a perspective change

43:26

on all of this. You even kicked the

43:28

book off with this in a way. Talk

43:31

a little bit about how the book starts

43:33

with this story that you tell about basically

43:35

a health issue from when you were younger.

43:38

Yeah, when I was 15 years old, I was playing

43:40

in a varsity basketball game. Basketball was my love at

43:42

the time. It's what I really live

43:45

for, really. I mean, if I was being honest,

43:47

I started feeling a little tightness in my back. So the

43:49

coach pulled me out of the game and had me stretch

43:51

on the sideline and I went back in and it didn't

43:53

go away. So he pulled me out and I thought I

43:56

must have pulled a muscle or something, you know, something silly

43:58

like that. So I went home that night. I

44:00

got in bed and went to sleep. I woke up in the middle

44:02

of the night and I couldn't move my legs. Or

44:04

to put it more precisely, if I moved

44:06

my leg two inches to the left or

44:08

the right, I would have a shooting pain

44:11

all the way up and down my spine

44:13

and it just was agony. And so I

44:15

rolled out of bed, I crawled arm over

44:17

arm into the hallway and I yelled for

44:19

my parents, hey, something's not right here. My

44:21

legs aren't working properly. They called an ambulance,

44:23

took me to the hospital, they did a

44:25

scan and they found a grapefruit-sized mass in

44:27

my abdomen and they immediately thought it was

44:29

cancer. Then they did exploratory surgery

44:32

and they discovered that it actually was

44:34

a swollen muscle, that there was an

44:36

infection, a staph infection

44:38

in the muscle that was pressing

44:40

my sciatic nerve against my sacroiliac

44:42

joint, basically paralyzing me. I basically

44:44

could not move. Well, the

44:46

hospital was ill-equipped to deal with it. They

44:49

couldn't deal with it. So they transferred me

44:51

to a hospital in Columbus, Ohio to the

44:53

infectious disease ward where my doctor was Dr.

44:55

Michael Brady. I kid you not for you

44:57

Brady Bunch fans. Michael Brady was my doctor

45:00

and he came out and he told my parents,

45:02

he said, hey, if I can save him, which

45:04

I mean, just think about hearing that as a

45:06

parent, if I can save him, I'm going to

45:08

have to pump him full of so much antibiotics

45:10

that it's going to definitely have side effects. There's

45:12

no questions going to have side effects. And they

45:14

said, well, of course, save him if you

45:17

can. So they did, they pumped me full

45:19

of antibiotics. And I remember, Eric, in that

45:21

moment, people cycling through my hospital room, coming

45:23

to visit me, I remember even

45:25

as a 15 year old kid,

45:27

I remember thinking, man, they are choosing their

45:29

words very carefully. And it didn't hit me

45:31

until later that these people thought

45:33

they were saying their last words to me. My

45:35

friends and my family, they thought this might be

45:37

the last thing I ever say to Todd, because

45:40

everybody thought I was going to die. I lost 50 pounds.

45:43

I went in as a 190-pound, 6'3",

45:46

190-pound athlete. And I came out at 130, 131 pounds. So I lost

45:48

50 pounds in the hospital. I

45:53

eventually came home. They told me, you're going to learn

45:55

how to walk again. You probably won't be able to

45:57

run, or you probably won't be able to play basketball.

46:00

which just crushed me and I was like, screw you,

46:02

I'm gonna do it. So I did, I learned how

46:04

to walk, I put on a bunch of weight, I

46:06

drank a bunch of protein shakes, put on a bunch

46:08

of weight. I was running within a

46:10

matter of months. I ran the steps at the school

46:12

day after day to kind of get back in shape,

46:14

put back on like 50 pounds. And by the next

46:16

season I was playing basketball and they ended up having

46:19

a really good high school career in basketball. As a

46:21

matter of fact to this day, I have on my

46:23

wall a couple years ago when they tore the gym

46:25

down, my dad was able to get a three foot

46:27

by three foot piece of the floor from the old

46:29

gym, the top of the key where I used to

46:31

shoot. That was kind of like my favorite shot and

46:33

he got it for me and I put it on

46:35

my wall to remind me that I'm gonna go through

46:38

difficult seasons in my life and I need to rise

46:40

to the moment when it happens. But what

46:42

happened to me in that moment, Eric, was

46:44

a really valuable thing for a teenage kid

46:46

who, I mean, as you know, teenage kids,

46:48

like they think they're gonna live forever. I

46:50

mean, teenage kids think that they're just it. What

46:53

really happened for me was I realized, man,

46:55

life is precious, life is short and moments

46:57

are important and I'm gonna have hard things

47:00

in my life and I need to be

47:02

willing to rise to these moments. Even

47:04

when it's difficult, I'm gonna have to rise to

47:07

the moment and work for what I want. And

47:09

so that recovery really taught me a lot and

47:11

also, I mean, I wear hospital

47:13

gowns for weeks on end and have people

47:15

staring at your butt and using

47:17

you as a human pen cushion, you

47:20

lose all self-consciousness. And so I was

47:22

really shy going into that experience

47:24

and like afterward, I'm like, sure,

47:27

like most popular girl in the school, sure, I'm

47:29

gonna ask her out, why not? Like, what do

47:31

I have to lose? Like I've already like almost

47:33

died. Like what, you know, it's funny how your

47:35

perspective changes on things when your perception

47:37

of consequence is altered in that way. And so

47:40

I really wrote this book and I talked about

47:42

this in that chapter. I wrote this book because

47:44

I want people to have that same sense of

47:47

imminence and urgency about the moments in their

47:49

life. I want them to feel what I

47:51

felt in that moment, which is, man, life

47:53

is precious and these moments are sacred, these

47:56

moments that we experience and we need to

47:58

be prepared to meet them at the end

48:00

of our life, we're gonna look back and it's gonna

48:02

be our response in those moments that is gonna stand

48:04

as a testament to what we really valued, what we

48:06

really cared about on this earth. I'd

48:08

love to point people to the book. I

48:11

think that's a great way to kinda close

48:13

this up is let's point people towards the

48:15

book. I know that this is dropping, this

48:17

conversation is literally dropping as the book is

48:19

coming out. People may be able to get

48:21

the window of pre-order still, which would be

48:23

great, but if not, it is out momentarily.

48:25

So let's point people to where the best

48:28

place is to, again, jump in, find out

48:30

more, and actually also connect with everything else

48:32

that you're doing. Yeah, you can

48:34

buy the book wherever books are sold. So,

48:36

you know, audio book, e-book, whatever, a print

48:38

book, you can get it wherever you wanna

48:40

read it. So just, you know, buy The

48:42

Brave Habit wherever books are sold. If you

48:44

wanna check out my work, you can do

48:47

so at toddhenry.com. That's my personal

48:49

website, and you can find all my books and

48:51

podcasts and everything else there, and listen to Daily

48:53

Creative with Todd Henry, which is the new format

48:55

for the show. After 18 years, we're now on

48:58

episode four, Eric. Congratulations.

49:00

Yeah, thank you. So wiping away

49:02

3,000 episodes has a tendency to

49:05

do that. So we're back at episode

49:07

four now. Wow, that's brave.

49:10

That's all I can say. Great job. Yeah,

49:12

so Todd, it's been great talking with you

49:14

as usual, and I think

49:17

next time you show up, I think

49:19

you're the person who's been on the

49:21

show the most, guest-wise, so maybe

49:23

we should have that happen sooner rather than

49:25

later. You've got a big flurry of activity

49:27

of travel and speaking, and obviously, you've probably

49:30

got book ideas that are simmering, but in

49:32

this new realm of stuff that

49:34

you're doing, let's figure out a way to have you

49:36

back sooner. I would love that. That would be great.

49:38

Yeah, I'm frantically writing my next book as we

49:40

speak just so I can be back on your

49:42

show, Eric. You heard it here, so I've

49:45

got it on documentation. So Todd, thank you

49:47

so much for being here again as usual

49:50

and for sharing your wisdom and experience. Thank

49:52

you so much, and thanks for your consistency

49:55

in your showing up for your audience over and

49:57

over and over again. I

50:00

mean, there's just a handful of people that I

50:02

look at and I'm like, man, that is what

50:04

consistency looks like. It is so hard. People don't

50:06

understand what it takes to do a show like

50:08

this. So thanks for what you do. Well,

50:12

that's another podcast crossed off your listening to-do

50:14

list. As we wrap up this episode, I

50:16

hope that as you got something out of

50:18

this, you're thinking of this concept of the

50:20

brave habit and how it can complement your

50:22

life. Number one, I think you should go

50:24

grab the book. You can find the link

50:26

in the show notes at beyondthetodolist.com. But

50:29

then also start to think about where

50:31

those moments in your past have been,

50:33

where you've been called towards this bravery

50:35

that you've needed, and start to realize

50:37

that you can move forward claiming agency

50:39

and having a cultivation of that optimistic

50:43

vision. And remembering

50:45

that bravery isn't just for heroes. It's

50:47

something that we all need to do

50:49

in our everyday lives and take those

50:51

lessons from this conversation and start to

50:53

apply them to your day in and

50:56

day out life, your leadership, your agency.

50:59

And I don't just mean if you're a

51:01

creative agency, I mean your actual agency and

51:03

the agency you have in and about your

51:05

life that you may not think you have.

51:08

I really hope that from this conversation, you

51:10

were inspired to be more optimistic and that

51:12

you can lean into having more agency in

51:14

your life and an optimistic vision and

51:16

moving forward into the possibilities that are

51:19

there for you in this new year.

51:22

If you found this helpful, I would love for

51:24

you to share it with somebody you know needs

51:26

to hear it. Hit that share button in your

51:28

podcast player app of choice or over on the

51:30

show notes over at beyondthetodolist.com. Thank

51:33

you so much for sharing. Thanks again

51:35

for listening and I will see you

51:37

next episode. All right, I'm gonna go ahead

51:39

and close this out. I'm

51:44

gonna close this out. I'm gonna close this

51:46

out. I'm gonna

51:48

close this out. I'm

51:51

gonna close this out. I'm gonna close this

51:53

out. I'm gonna close this out. I'm

51:56

gonna close this out. Thank

52:04

you.