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Hi, and welcome

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to the Big Deep Podcast. Big Deep is a

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about people who have a connection to the

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ocean, people for whom

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that connection is so strong, it defines

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some aspect of their life. Over

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the course of the series, we'll talk

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to all sorts of people. Then

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each episode we'll explore the deeper

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meaning of that connection. In

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this episode, I speak with

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someone who spent his entire career underwater

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helping catch murderers. Hello,

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this is Paul Kellaway and I'm Jason

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Elias. Welcome to the big

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deep podcast.

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When most people think about scuba diving, they

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picture sunkissed beaches, crystal

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clear waters, and tropical coral

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reefs, but our next guest

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has a very different take on what diving

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is about. Not only

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has he turned it into his career, but

1:08

he's the kind of guy that actually looks forward

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to jumping into farmers' ponds, rock

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quarries, and muddy lakes with

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zero visibility.

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My name is Mike Berry and

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I'm an underwater criminal

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investigator.

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Well, you know that immediately sounds super cool,

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but what does that exactly mean? Being an underwater

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criminal investigator.

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Someone calls the police and

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when a crime leads

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to the water's edge, where a land

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investigator is standing there with his shoes

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and he's wondering what to do next, there

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are people like us that they can call. Certified

1:47

scuba divers that go into the water

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and carry on that criminal investigation. It's just

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not somebody with scuba gear. It's someone

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with scuba gear that's highly trained

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because what you do next can

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blow it or they could solve

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the case. Just wiping

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off a fingerprint, the fingerprint that's

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been sitting there for two weeks waiting

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for your recovery and then based on your

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inabilities, you're touching it too much

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and wiping that fingerprint off that could

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have solved the case and led to a murderer going to jail.

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So it's pretty funny, Mike. This is a very different

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kind of diving than most people

2:22

would be used to.

2:27

You know the thing about what we do is

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we do not get to pick our dive site.

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You got to understand that my phone

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rings and someone has picked

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my dive site for me. So

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you're not, you're not usually, you know, seeing

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beautiful tropical fish and coral reefs

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. It's usually some

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farmer's pond or rock quarry

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or inlet or assessed pool

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waiting for you.

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When you go into these

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farmers ponds or rock quarries, what

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are the parameters of the job that you actually do?

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Your three cores to underwater

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criminal investigations, are body

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recoveries, vehicle recoveries,

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and evidence recovery.

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With body recoveries, that could be an accident, it

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could be a drowning, it could be a homicide.

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It could be some person that was murdered

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a month ago or 10 years

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ago. then you're no longer looking

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for a body, you're looking for the

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r emains, for the skeleton. Maybe

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if there was a bullet lodged inside

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the body, you're looking for a bullet that's now

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in the bottom composition. With evidence, it

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could be anything. It could be a murder

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weapon. It could be a stolen gun. It

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could be a safe. It's anything

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that's limited to a person's imagination.

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So when you're swimming along the bottom

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of the crime scene, how

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are you searching the area?

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You normally don't find anything unless your hand

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gets it. Then

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once your hand touches it, then

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your brain is saying, rock,

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tree, bottle,

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and then all of a sudden....gun! And

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then the moment your brain says

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gun, you have to be trained

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to let go. Because

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your job as an underwater criminal

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investigator is to recover

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any piece of evidence exactly like

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it was on the bottom . You know, it's been

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sitting there a day or two a week,

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a month, a year. It's been sitting there all

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that time waiting for someone to recover

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it. If it's sitting there laying

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on the bottom with a fingerprint, a

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pubic hair, anything. If

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it's sitting there with some evidence

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that could help contribute to the solving of the

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case, that's your job. Your

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job is to recover it. Exactly like

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it was found.

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This is such a different

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kind of life than most people would

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envision for themselves. Can you go back

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and tell me a little bit about what brought you to this place?

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Were you always interested in water as a kid and how did you

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get this job?

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I always had a connection with water. What

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helped my love grow was

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my dad had these photographs.

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They're all old black and white photographs

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of him scuba diving. In one he had this

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spear gun and he was standing about k

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nee deep in a water with a bunch of his friends.

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I just thought that was the coolest

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thing. I didn't

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know really what was going on, but it

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looked cool and

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I knew as I was growing up that

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one day I was going to be a scuba diver.

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It was after I served my term in

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the military. I went to a scuba store

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and I, my first scuba lessons

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and I loved it. I

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also knew I was going to be a police officer.

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I put in my applications to

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all the departments around Virginia and

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I was hired by the Virginia state police. With

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just the luck of the draw, I got this

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training officer just

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out of the blue. He said, do

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you happen to scuba dive? And

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I said, yes sir, I do scuba dive. He

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says, well, we're going on a scuba dive

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tomorrow for some stolen guns. If

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you'd like to go, you can come. And

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the next day I was with these two state

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police divers. I

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couldn't believe it, but they were telling me what to do

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on t he search pattern. I was u nder w

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ater and total darkness s

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earch i n the bottom. Next

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thing I know my hand i

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n a handgun. Right then I

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knew what I was supposed to do for the rest of

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my life. I

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was going to take my love for the water a nd my

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love for diving and

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t his thing I wanted to be was a police

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officer. I

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was going to combine them. I was g onna put them together

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and that's what I was g oing t o do for the rest of my life.

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Now it's 35 years later

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and I love it just like that day,

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there's nothing I would do different. What

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an opportunity it is. Imagine

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finding a murder weapon and

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that murder weapon is the key

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to the arrest. And here

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you are finding that evidence and based

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on your recovery they're making

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an arrest and a bad guy goes to jail.

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But look on the other side of that. Look what you're doing

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for the victim's family. I

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look at it as an honor. What an honor

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it is to be asked to try to help

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bring closure to this horrible situation.

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Yeah, I would say anything where you can be of benefit

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to others always has a deeper meaning

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and that that's got to feel great.

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So is there one recovery

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that you made that broke

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a case that was really dramatic or something

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that really meant a lot to you as

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a person?

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I've had a number of

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murderers, after

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interviewing the murderer , they

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would bring them back to the scene, tell

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me to my face, I'll

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never find it. And

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then seeing the look on his face

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when he sees my buoy come

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to the surface marking the target, packaging

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and walk it by him and given him a grin. Those

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are always rewarding cause

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they're thinking they

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picked the right spot and they threw it far

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enough and they had

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no idea that there were people out there

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that did this kind of thing. And

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then the body recoveries are always

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rewarding because you know

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the emotion. You're getting involved

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in a terrible situation and

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you know the

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pain that the family's going through.

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Those are always rewarding.

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You drive away and a lot of times

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you don't get thanked and you're not there for

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the thank you. You're

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there trying to just do your best,

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but every now and then you do

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get a Pat . Every

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now and then you do get a letter or

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just having a mother mouth

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the words as you're getting out of the water,

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"Thank you." You

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know what? What

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a gift that is. You

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kind of understand why you're doing it.

10:23

Just being around criminal investigations

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in general, you see

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the horror that's out there, the

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wickedness, the

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evil. But

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on the other side of that, you're on

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the other team where you're

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trying to help and you're

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trying to bring the light into

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the darkness.

11:05

Thank you for listening to the big deep podcast

11:08

next time on big deep, "The idea

11:12

of me being a mermaid,

11:15

I'm challenged about it all the time. I

11:18

don't actually believe I'm a mermaid, but

11:21

I am as close as it gets." We

11:24

really appreciate you being with us on this journey

11:26

to the Big Deep as we

11:28

explore an ocean of stories.

11:31

If you like what you're doing, please make sure to

11:33

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11:42

The more info on our guests, extra

11:44

audio and photos, as well as updates

11:47

on anything you've heard, you can find a lot

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more content. Our website, [inaudible]

11:51

dot com plus . If

11:53

you know someone you think we should talk to, just

11:55

let us know what the big deep website is. We are always

11:57

looking to hear more stories from interesting people

12:00

who are deeply connected to our world's oceans.

12:03

Thanks again for joining us.