0:01

Welcome back to another episode of Big Money Energy

0:03

where we talked to super successful and

0:05

self made people to find out exactly

0:08

how they did it, how they went from nothing

0:10

to something. Today I am joined by

0:13

none other than Raja Rajamana,

0:15

CMO of MasterCard. We talked about a

0:17

lot of different things and let's get into

0:19

it. Welcome to another episode.

0:32

Take me back to the beginning, so for

0:34

the audience and everyone that's watching and listening,

0:36

your story into like fortune,

0:39

fortune five hundred, you know the world to being the CMO

0:41

of MasterCard, which is just nuts.

0:44

You don't wake up one day and say mom,

0:46

this is what I want to do. You initially went to school

0:48

for chemical engineering and now

0:50

you're in marketing, so clearly there

0:52

was there wasn't a book on that. So take

0:55

me back to your little kid, you're running

0:57

around, what were you first interested in? See

0:59

if a stay as a kid. I

1:02

used to be a good student even

1:04

then, and my mom would

1:06

put the fear of God in us to say that if

1:08

you don't study well, you will

1:10

have to probably be a manual

1:13

laborer in one of those fields or

1:15

construction sites, which petrified

1:17

me. So I used to really study very hard. Did she make

1:19

you do that work like at nights or weekends or

1:21

summers. No, no, no, no, she did not. Viewing

1:24

it from a distance was enough for

1:26

me to say that's not what I would really like to do. So

1:29

as a student, I was a very good student, and

1:32

I joined chemical engineering because I was interested

1:34

in chemistry, and I was also specializing

1:36

in environmental engineering, which is all about pollution

1:39

control and treatment of effluence and all that.

1:41

And I really enjoyed it. And I was a valectorian

1:43

and I stood first to the university as

1:45

well as other universities, got some gold

1:48

medals and all the good stuff. So I thought that's where

1:50

I was going to actually make my career. And

1:52

I joined NBA after that in one of the prestigious

1:55

management schools in India called the Indian

1:57

Institute of Management in Bangalore, and

2:01

I joined for environmental management

2:03

and human settlements and habitats.

2:06

So that was where I thought I'll specialize in.

2:08

And quite by accident, between the first

2:11

and second years, I had to do internship.

2:14

And I did this internship with a company

2:16

called lack Me, which was a color cosmetics

2:18

company in India, in India, in India, in Angalore.

2:20

So I was sitting in one of the cabins and working away on

2:23

my logistics projects, and I

2:25

overheard a conversation between my supervisor

2:27

and the agency guys in the next cubicle,

2:29

and I said, why are this guy struggling so

2:32

hard? To me, it was very evident how they

2:34

should produce the campaign, though I had no clue

2:36

of advertising or marketing for that matter.

2:38

So I just took a small piece of paper and I said

2:41

the campaign caption I gave, is

2:43

it bad to look good? And then I created

2:46

a small campaign out there right there as

2:48

an ad and I went to him and they said,

2:50

hey, I got an idea. I just overard your conversation,

2:52

so I hope you didn't mind, but here is what I have as an

2:54

idea. So he fell off his chair. He

2:56

said this is brilliant, and then that made

2:58

it its way to the chair one of the company,

3:01

and then they really converted it to the real campaign,

3:03

which become a big hit once some awards and

3:05

all that. Wow, and it was just something you were overhearing.

3:08

I was just overhearing, and they intuitively did

3:10

it. So then I started thinking, you know,

3:13

maybe this is what I'm really good at. So in

3:15

stuff environmental interesting, our

3:17

environmental management. Let me also try to specialize

3:19

in marketing. So I started taking a lot of

3:21

marketing electives and that's when the bug

3:23

had really written me. And here it is

3:26

thirty six years after. I'm

3:28

still in marketing and I joy every moment

3:30

of it. So then you graduated,

3:32

You've decided to make the switch over to marketing,

3:35

which is a massive mindset shift.

3:38

How did you have the courage to do that? Like I

3:40

hear you you had that

3:43

line with you know the superiors,

3:45

and it works and it's fun and it's exciting. Let

3:47

me go take some electives. But you train

3:49

your whole life to do one thing to then

3:51

just make such a dramatic shift, Like, how do you

3:53

have the courage to do

3:56

that? Or did you not do it? Like it wasn't

3:58

so black and white, It was kind of over time.

4:00

No, it was an immediate switch. Literally, it was

4:02

an immediate switch. There was no pondering

4:05

route for a long time. So the key thing

4:07

is, you know, every marketing course that

4:09

I took, I really enjoyed it very deeply,

4:12

and I could perform very well in the examinations,

4:15

in the case studies and things like that. Uh,

4:18

and when I graduated, I

4:21

had I also want some scholarships and all the good

4:23

stuff. So when I graduated, there was

4:25

a company which came to the campus

4:27

called Asian Paints. It

4:29

was the largest paint company in India. Like

4:32

the first company you worked for, correct, yes, And

4:34

they came for the campus recruitment and they don't

4:36

They didn't have a marketing department

4:38

though they were India's largest paint company

4:42

and they wanted to create a marketing department.

4:44

They wanted me to be a founder member

4:46

of the marketing team. But as a founder

4:48

flunkey, which I was okay with. I had

4:50

two bosses. It was a three people team.

4:52

So somehow the idea of creating a

4:55

department from zero and being a founder

4:57

of that department gave me a lot of kick.

5:00

I said, okay, I'll go and do it. And

5:02

imagine my surprise when I went to the camp.

5:04

When I went joined the company, one

5:06

of the directors on the board of that company,

5:09

he and I we happened to meet in a

5:11

men's toilet. So he asked

5:13

me, I believe you're the guy who has come in

5:15

to teach us how to do marketing, But

5:18

tell me we are doing anywhere so well

5:20

without the help of any marketing so far,

5:23

and we are the market leaders, So tell

5:25

me what exactly are he is going to do

5:27

and how are you going to transform this because we're doing well

5:29

without your help so far. That actually set

5:32

me thinking quite a lot. I said, these guys are

5:34

already market leaders. They don't have a marketing

5:36

department, So what exactly does marketing

5:38

do in companies? Till that time, my knowledge

5:41

and marketing was all very theoretical. It

5:43

was reading Philip Cartler and all the marketing books

5:45

and all that stuff. Then I started on a journey

5:47

going to different companies h

5:50

and trying to ask them what do you do

5:52

in marketing? How are you organized? And

5:54

what are your goals and what are your strategies

5:57

and so on. And I was going to people who are not companies

6:00

you were not competing against. And

6:02

it was a fascinating eye opener for

6:04

me that each company had its own

6:06

definition of marketing. They do whatever

6:08

they pleased and call it marketing. And

6:11

I said wow, because that that sort of dispelled

6:13

the myth that marketing is a function is

6:16

very well defined and this is

6:18

how it has to be. It was as varied as

6:20

the companies were so Hi

6:23

said, Okay, then we'll come up with our own definition of marketing.

6:26

And I created my own job description

6:28

and our own mandate for the function. And

6:30

we produced some award winning campaigns and

6:32

created some award winning new products which

6:34

became market leaders and became with

6:37

the distribution and logistics innovations.

6:39

Had a fantastic time there, and then what happens

6:42

is once you start, you know, seeing

6:44

success, success motivates you

6:46

to do even more, and that sort

6:48

of even more and some of that that sort of kept

6:51

going throughout my career and I moved from after

6:53

three years with Asian Pints, I

6:55

moved to Unilever, which

6:57

was considered to be their school of marketing in India.

7:00

Yes, and the reason why I wanted

7:02

to mut huge company. It's a gigantic

7:04

company and it's a household name

7:06

in India. And I didn't move because if it was a household

7:09

name or a great brand. But I moved because they

7:11

were giving me accommodation in Bombay.

7:13

As a nice little they give you an apartment.

7:16

It's a big perk right in Bombay. You don't

7:18

affer you cannot refer an apartment on

7:20

your own, particularly when you're starting

7:22

your career in three years into your career. So I said, that's

7:24

a great deal. So I went and joined, and

7:27

when I joined, I had the biggest shock in my

7:29

life when they said, okay, you're coming

7:31

into Uni Liver, but you start in

7:33

sales, not in marketing. And here

7:35

I was. I always had very low opinion

7:37

of salespeople. Oh good, you've come

7:39

to the right podcast. Correct, so welcome.

7:43

So interestingly, I said, no, sales

7:45

is meant for people who are not intellectual. Great,

7:48

God, I want to just keep recording this. I'm

7:51

sort of going on right. And I always

7:53

felt if people are a glib they

7:55

can talk smoothly and

7:57

they can trick you into buying things that you don't

7:59

need. You're a great sales guy. You in awards,

8:01

you get your come incentives

8:03

and all that. They said, that's what sales is. And I'm not that

8:05

kind of a guy. Always fancy it myself

8:07

as being a intellectual and a creative

8:10

kind of a guy, but not a sales guy. So I said, I'll

8:12

not joint and then the head of marketing

8:14

for Univerity India he said that you trust

8:18

me unless you're a good salesman,

8:20

you'll never be a good marketer. You'll remain an

8:22

ivory town marketer. And

8:25

uh, the temptation of

8:27

the apartment was too much to let go, So

8:30

very reluctantly I

8:32

went into sales. And I was put

8:34

in charge of North India, which

8:37

was a gigantic territory for India at the time

8:39

for all the personal care products. And

8:42

I had like a salespeople

8:45

that had to supervise and had no clue of sales,

8:47

and I was put off their boss. I said,

8:49

he's going to be a crazy journey. And I

8:52

think my myths about sales got dispelled

8:54

with it. The very first week. Suddenly

8:57

started seeing that these guys and I

8:59

joined. In summer, it's hot,

9:01

scorching heart in India. In the I've

9:05

heard it's awfully hot. And

9:08

these poor guys would

9:10

go onto the streets go shop

9:12

to shop to shop, because in India the distribution

9:14

was moment pop stores. They

9:16

would go, they would plead, they would convinced,

9:18

they would sell the product, actually deliver

9:21

the products themselves, because they had to pick

9:23

up stocks and if you don't deliver the

9:25

stocks, then the shopkeeper might change

9:27

his or her mind. So they wanted to fulfill

9:30

the right then and there itself, collect the money from the

9:32

previous visit, and then go to the next

9:34

shop. They had to do forty shops a day,

9:37

and I started walking with them. I found

9:39

a new and a level of respect

9:41

for these folks. I said, these guys

9:43

are killing themselves. They're pounding the pavements

9:46

relentlessly, and when you're told

9:48

no, no, no, in multiple shops, it's

9:50

very for me. I was feeling thoroughly

9:53

depressed and demoralized. These guys they wouldn't

9:55

let their spirits sink our sag.

9:57

They would just keep going. I tell you that was probably

9:59

the biggest lesson in my life from the point

10:01

of resilience. And I

10:04

a new founding appreciation

10:06

for sales like never before. And

10:09

then I start getting addicted to sales and

10:11

we started really together the sales that we were

10:13

bonding beautifully, But what was enduring

10:16

was the relationships with the people. They

10:18

would give their life for you. And these folks still

10:20

now. There's some of my best friends and I

10:22

keep in touch with them and whenever I go to India, we

10:25

have a reunion with the team. And they're

10:27

all in different places now. Some of them have unfortunately

10:29

passed away, some of them are there. So the those

10:32

who are life we all get together

10:34

frequently and we have our zoom calls these days.

10:36

Actually I made lifelong relationships and

10:39

they taught me, actually, what is marketing

10:42

in the field, mar

10:45

It is sales. You are

10:47

fighting the marketing warfare on

10:49

the streets, in the shops, in

10:51

the retail and that's where the actually

10:53

the rubber hits the road. You

10:56

can sit in your ivory tower head office

10:58

in an air conditioned comfort and then start

11:01

creating all your fancy campaigns.

11:03

But these are the guys who actually make it happen. You

11:05

know, you can create demand, yes, but these

11:07

are the guys who are actually enabled the demand fulfillment

11:10

and get the distribution going. Without all

11:12

that, your whole marketing is altherways useless,

11:14

and particularly in those days, there was no direct marketing.

11:17

You had to go through distribution channels. But

11:19

what also done it did was in

11:21

sales, you're focused on tangible

11:24

outcomes. In marketing, you

11:26

can become very fluffy and intellectually

11:29

justify to yourself that you're doing a great job. People,

11:31

I've loved this campaign, stuff

11:33

like that, But sales is all abouts

11:35

and it's very very tangible, right,

11:38

connecting the dots between the results, marketing,

11:40

etcetera. It was a phenomenal journey

11:43

and I was there for three and a half years in sales

11:45

before then I moved into marketing.

11:47

And then when I'm so grateful that I had that steam,

11:58

I want to go back there to that that moment it where

12:01

you know, you talked about the question

12:03

that came to you of Okay, we're

12:05

a huge company, we're

12:07

selling a lot. What are you

12:09

going to do for marketing? What is marketing

12:13

for a company that is already selling the

12:15

most? Is it just really?

12:17

I mean, you've done a lot of innovation and what I mean I could

12:19

talk to you for a hundred hours right like

12:22

there is That's what I'm saying when you came in here

12:24

as I don't even know where to start with him because from

12:26

this award to this title, to this role

12:28

to this is so much. But it's

12:30

it's innovating new products to help sales.

12:33

Is that kind of the path that you then

12:35

took. For sure, you're selling everything you currently

12:37

have well, but you could sell more

12:39

and you could also do this, this, this, and that's where

12:41

marketing helps. So marketing or

12:43

the way I would look at it is creating

12:46

demand across

12:48

every point within the value chain.

12:51

Okay, consumers should

12:53

demand your product, the retailers

12:55

should demand your product, the whole

12:57

siters should demand your product or service.

13:00

Which you were it is the factory

13:02

people should prioritize your product.

13:05

You're creating demand for your product to be produced

13:07

by these guys. You're literally selling

13:10

You're the need to get your product

13:13

into their respective domains across

13:15

the entire value chain is one part of it. Second,

13:18

you're trying to understand the latent demand,

13:22

latent needs of people. People many

13:24

of the times they don't even know what they want, right.

13:26

And I think Steve Jobs has really made it famous

13:28

with his court and that's true. But Philip

13:31

Carler long long before that, he said that marketing

13:33

is all about satisfying the felt

13:36

and the latent demand of people.

13:39

And uh so that part of

13:41

it is something which is fascinating to understand.

13:44

Like, you know, how innovative can you get creating a

13:46

soap? How much two people related

13:48

a stupid soap are a shampoo? Right?

13:50

But then you're trying to split hair and come

13:52

up with concepts which are really compelling and

13:54

shift the market share in terms of the

13:56

demand that you get and then fulfill it. It's

13:58

that kind of a thing. How do you manage logistics

14:01

very differently, how do you come up with packaging

14:03

innovation Because when people are going not

14:05

every product purchase is a predetermined

14:08

purchase. There is a lot of impulse purchase.

14:11

Plus also at the moment of truth, when you're just

14:13

buying it, the packaging needs to be motivating

14:15

and give you that just gentle nudge to

14:18

go over and then pick up that and then buy the product

14:20

you create packaging pricing

14:23

this is a quantitative game, and

14:25

pricing is where in fact I have leveraged

14:27

probably the most of my engineering skills because

14:30

you're playing with numbers and how

14:32

small changes in pricing can

14:35

vastly impact your profitability on the one

14:37

hand, but on the other hand, it

14:40

can also you know, move

14:42

your consumer behavior, whether your price elastic

14:45

or not. That's what the term is. It's

14:47

fascinating. And then there's behavioral economics,

14:50

which is a completely different field where it has got

14:52

nothing to do with rational thinking, but

14:54

it's all about emotions and feelings and how do you connect

14:56

that behavior with economics And the combination

14:59

of the intersection is habit of economics it's

15:01

a fascinating thing. So marketing is

15:03

such a rich and holistic function.

15:05

Uh, and that's what I tried to do throughout

15:08

back area, which you a role with you a

15:10

company or with your geography I

15:12

was in So how long were

15:14

you you lever almost seventy years,

15:16

almost seven years, and from there

15:18

you went to City Bank, City

15:21

Bank and you're there for a long time, fifteen

15:23

years. So what was the first thing you thought

15:25

about then? As as

15:27

the marketer right behind that new credit

15:29

card? That that other people listening

15:32

who are starting their own businesses, whether it's in

15:34

sales of real estate or cars,

15:36

or starting their own app or whatever

15:39

they might be doing. Like where do you what

15:41

do you start? I get that question a lot because

15:43

people become very overwhelmed. Right, they

15:45

know what they're doing, but they have no idea where you even start?

15:47

Do I start with socialize

15:49

it people on the street? And I should

15:51

I print out flyers? Do I go on a radio

15:54

show? Do I do it all? And then I don't do

15:56

anything because it's too much like when

15:58

you did that, Like, what was the first thing you thought about?

16:00

What you want? See? The first thing is you need to make

16:03

sure that you understand what

16:06

need you are satisfying and

16:08

of whom?

16:10

Uh? And if you know, for example, I'm satisfying

16:12

the payment needs of consumers,

16:15

that is a notion in itself. What part of payment

16:18

needs is it the borrowing or

16:20

is it the you know, a spontaneous

16:22

immediate payment or you're talking

16:25

about the convenience. There are so many

16:27

aspects of So what you do is you look

16:29

at the need dissected

16:32

to death to understand every

16:34

facet of that need. Number one,

16:36

write it all down. I think there's

16:38

nothing gives you better clarity than

16:40

either speaking it out or writing

16:42

it down. Writing it down is by far the best when I

16:44

find. Then when you look at it and then

16:46

see, okay, these there are ten needs

16:49

or sub needs or manifestations

16:51

of the need or the one need that I'm actually

16:53

saying I'm going to address. Choose

16:55

your bucket of needs that you want to satisfy Number

16:58

one. Then get

17:00

the cultural context and the fabric.

17:04

People say, oh, I'm in the business to business

17:06

marketing or my product is to businesses,

17:09

so why should it be b to be so why should it be bothered

17:11

about, you know, human psychology

17:13

and all because I'm selling it to your business. The

17:16

thing that's a big fallacy in people's minds.

17:20

So long as it is human beings

17:23

who run businesses, they

17:25

still behave like human beings even in the business

17:27

context. So Raja the consumer

17:30

behaves exactly the same way as Raja

17:33

the decision maker for his business,

17:36

the same aspirations, the same insecurities,

17:39

the same goals, the same apprehensions.

17:42

It's your one individual, irrespective

17:44

which context you are in. But

17:46

what happens, for some weird reason is

17:48

people become very formal and impersonal

17:51

when it comes to be to be communication or b

17:53

two be pitching, whereas in personal

17:56

they're all you know, oozing emotion and nice

17:58

and warm and all that stuff. So

18:01

that people have to really realize it is

18:03

one single person into different contexts.

18:06

Yes, when I make decisions for my company,

18:08

I'm not paying it out of my pocket. Sure, somebody's

18:11

financing, there are some gatekeepers, there are some influencers

18:14

to my decision. But I'm still

18:16

Raja. I'm the same person with

18:18

the same emotional makeup, with the same feelings.

18:21

So if you recognize that part of it,

18:24

you're going to be marketing very differently

18:26

than the way you are. In fact, I give this

18:29

feed back to a lot of my peers as well. Is

18:31

a look at the flyer or some brochure

18:33

that you produce for a company. It

18:36

looks like a piece of industrial brochure, which you

18:38

should not be. Make it interesting,

18:40

make it exciting, make it playful. So when

18:42

you came into MasterCard, because I'm still

18:45

you know, I've always come from a

18:47

point of you know, every house we sell

18:50

is a brand new puzzle. You know, the house

18:52

hasn't sold a thousand times where it's selling so

18:54

well that one house, so I could sell it in a heartbeat.

18:56

I don't have to do anything for it. Every house

18:58

we get is hard in some

19:00

way, unless it's underpriced. But it's

19:04

maybe twice in my whole life I've met a seller who's

19:06

agreed to underprise something every other

19:08

time by far, well it's over priced.

19:11

Um. And so you MasterCard

19:13

is a huge company, right, a

19:16

massive company. What

19:18

was one of the first things you did when you came in there

19:20

to really help them think about marketing

19:22

in a different way, to help them grow their

19:24

business? Yeah? You see, Actually MasterCard

19:28

was already a top hundred brand whether

19:30

you inherited it, right, And

19:33

that's a huge privilege to inherit a brand

19:35

like MasterCard, and I felt very grateful

19:37

for that, and I still feel very grateful for that. And

19:40

the company had a fantastic ad

19:42

campaign called Priceless. Uh

19:45

so it's not like I have inherited something which

19:48

is broken that needs to be fixed, but

19:50

just chugging away brilliantly. Famous.

19:53

Who came up with that? An

19:56

agency? An agency, yes they have that. They were

19:58

the ones who came with the Priceless campaign. And we is

20:00

running now. In fact, next year is

20:02

the tiversary of that

20:05

happen, So it's it's absolutely

20:07

doing a brilliant even today. So

20:10

when it came in my my mandate

20:13

was not a fixed marketing, but

20:16

to really move marketing into a different

20:18

realm of effectiveness. And

20:20

so we started asking ourselves, what why

20:22

does marketing exist within master Card?

20:25

So in those days it all used to be about build

20:27

and nurture the brand and

20:29

make it strong. So

20:31

I said, that's a very narrow way of defining marketing.

20:34

So we said, we'll have three pillars. We

20:36

will grow and nurture the brand

20:39

and protect our reputation. We

20:41

will be the single biggest competitive advantage

20:43

for master Card. So marketing

20:46

and communications should be the single biggest

20:49

competitive advantage for master

20:51

Card, and therefore we can fuel the business.

20:53

So we said, we'll be actually feeling the growth

20:55

of the business, profitable growth of the business, and

20:58

of course build these UH platforms

21:01

and capabilities that are very

21:03

difficult for other people to replicate, so we have a sustainable

21:05

competitive advantage. So with these

21:07

three pillars, we went in and

21:10

we went a complete overhaul, including

21:12

the Priceless campaign. So Priceless

21:14

used to be an advertising platform,

21:16

so you show very beautiful moments in people's

21:19

lives that are truly priceless. Might

21:21

say you focus on priceless things for

21:23

everything else there is master Card. That was

21:26

the campaign very simplar. So

21:28

what I felt was that first day

21:30

had to be very careful not to have the new Bright

21:32

syndrome. So new Bright syndrome

21:34

is actually an Indian concept where they say

21:36

when in India we have the concept of joint

21:38

families where everyone lives together

21:41

from the family, so that the boy, if you have got

21:43

sons, the daughters in law and the son, they

21:45

all live with you and you grew up in you

21:47

age, the previous next generation comes up,

21:49

the previous generation passes away, but they're all

21:51

living together. So they say,

21:53

when a new bride comes to the home, she

21:56

wants to prove herself that she is

21:58

worthy of the family, and and

22:02

then she tries to impress. And then first thing, the way she

22:04

tries to impress is to criticize

22:06

the existing practices and tell everyone how

22:09

great her mother's house works, and

22:12

get the best practices from the previous home.

22:15

So that is a recipe for disaster. So

22:18

when I came into the basket at one of the first things

22:20

I said is I have to respect the heritage.

22:23

I have to be grateful for what I have inherited,

22:26

and then not be biased only by that,

22:28

but to say, okay, how can I take it to the next level.

22:30

I'm not throwing the baby out of the bath water, but how

22:32

do you make the baby stronger? So

22:34

the first thing we struck me is priceless

22:37

is being so underutilized as a

22:39

concept for us by us, it

22:41

was used only for advertising. But can

22:43

priceless be truly infused into

22:45

all the four piece of marketing? Which

22:48

product? Can we create priceless product opportunities?

22:51

How do you infuse pricelessness into price,

22:54

into packaging, into promotions, everything

22:56

like across the ind of her distribution and

23:00

that changed our whole approach, and then we started

23:02

create using priceless as an experiential

23:05

platform introat of showcasing wonderful

23:07

experiences on the television. In the advertisements,

23:10

we said, we'll curate and create experiences

23:13

for people that will really experience.

23:16

And you know, there are certain things which

23:18

you can explain, there are certain things you cannot

23:20

explain. Your experienced. Priceless

23:22

is to be experienced, not explained. So

23:24

we were creating those priceless moments for people

23:27

to experience. Like just as an example,

23:29

if you say, okay, you can go and sleep on the Great Wall

23:31

of China, or sleep inside

23:33

the Pyramid the Great Pyramid

23:36

Chaps that's in Egypt. That's

23:38

a once in a lifetime experience. Or have

23:40

it to ur off Loover

23:43

Museum after the museum is coursed

23:46

for public, and you sit at the end of the dinner

23:48

in front of Mona Lisa's portrait and

23:50

you have dinner with her and there is official

23:52

photograph of taking your pictures and you're trying to sneak

23:55

your pictures when nobody's watching, and you

23:57

sleep for the night under the glass pyramid

24:00

created by I M. Pay and you

24:02

sleep out of the stars. It's an ethereal experience,

24:05

unbelievable experience, truly priceless.

24:07

So we started curating this at

24:09

scale in an economical fashion,

24:12

and I moved a lot of my money from traditional

24:14

marketing into experiential marketing.

24:16

We started building experiential marketing platforms

24:19

which became rock solid for us,

24:21

and we started getting into sponsorships in a big

24:23

way to be able to curate these experiences.

24:26

So we looked at people's lives into passions.

24:28

What are people passionate about? No two

24:30

people are passionate about the same thing. Each

24:33

one is very unique. So we would focus on ten passion

24:35

points around the world like sports is one passion

24:37

point, music, traveling, art

24:40

and culture, movies, philanthropy,

24:42

environment, sustainability, help them well being and so

24:44

on. So we had these ten passion points.

24:46

In each one of these passion points, we're curating

24:49

experiences that money cannot buy, but

24:51

you can get only with a master Card. That

24:54

changed our trajectory completely, both

24:56

in the B two B context and two B two C context

24:59

and fast word. Now master Card has

25:01

become a top ten brand in the world, as

25:04

may shared by brand z, which is we had

25:06

identified one of the most robust methodologies

25:09

and trackers done by a third

25:11

party. So we're not self reporting ourselves. Somebody else

25:13

is doing it and they are publishing it and we're looking

25:15

at pure that public data. And

25:17

uh so we're a top ten brand globally. We

25:20

are at number eight in the United States. Our

25:22

brand has never been stronger. Brand valuation

25:24

has multiplied about eight times

25:27

in the last eight years. Crazy,

25:30

yes, and it's been sort of that's

25:32

just on the brand side. But in terms of the cutting

25:34

it stuff, we are doing something like, you know, creating

25:36

our audio brand, and

25:39

we have been rated for two years in a row as

25:41

the world's number one audio brand for

25:44

two years. You know that. That's a very nice

25:46

thing for us. We created and launched our

25:48

own restaurants. We launched

25:50

our most recent restaurant three weeks back in Some

25:53

Paula in Brazil. The next one

25:55

is happening next week Mexico.

25:57

Priceless. It's

26:00

Priceless by master Card

26:03

everything, you got everything. It's it's a

26:05

phenomenal restaurant, but it gives you unbelievably

26:08

could experience. That is

26:18

the idea. Then through all the experiential

26:20

marketing and not just magazine

26:23

ads right and standard television commercials.

26:26

Is you're you're taking budget

26:28

dollars and you're putting it in places that can

26:30

permeate what you're talking about, like

26:32

you know behavior more than

26:34

any Yes, it's behavior, absolutely

26:37

right, and connecting and engaging with consumers

26:40

on things that they get about, which

26:42

is what we call passion points, and not just reminding

26:44

them that you your credit card. Nobody

26:46

cares right, they can about themselves

26:48

and their needs. So how do you really

26:50

engage them in that sense? And also one of the key

26:53

things we do is we call it multisensory

26:55

marketing. If you see most of the ads

26:57

that cater to do off your senses the

26:59

sense soft, site, and a sense of sound.

27:03

Now, human beings by and large are blessed

27:05

with five senses, which

27:07

means they've got sensors, five sensors

27:10

through which they absorb information, the brain processes

27:13

and comes to conclusions and makes them act or

27:15

feel or think. How do whatever? Why

27:17

are we using only two? How can you leverage

27:19

all the five senses? Fragrances

27:23

one that's a sense of what it

27:25

called as well. Then we have got restaurants

27:27

as a sense of taste as an example,

27:30

sense of touch. We launched a card last fortnight,

27:34

a card called Touch Card, which

27:36

actually helps blind people by

27:39

feeling it. There is a small notch on the side

27:41

of the card so they can orient the card

27:43

because otherwise they have no way of front

27:45

of the card exactly, and they don't know which

27:47

is that a credit card, DEVID card, prepaid card today,

27:50

what they have to do a person whose site impaired they

27:52

had to take the current shoot to somebody else? Which card

27:55

is this? Why should this we depended

27:57

on somebody else? It's scary on one hand that a lot of bad

27:59

character to take advantage of it, and on

28:01

the other hand you should give them an

28:04

enablement to be independent.

28:06

So when we did develop this concept and we

28:08

ran it past some brilliant not

28:11

not for profit organizations like the

28:13

National Royal National

28:16

Institute for the Blind in the United Kingdom,

28:19

they loved it. So we have actually

28:21

just announced the launch and we're going to be making it

28:23

available in the first quarter of two

28:25

around the world. So this is laborating

28:28

the sense of touch. Now, what what

28:30

we are doing here is not to brag

28:32

about MasterCard the brand,

28:35

but show you and give you experiences

28:37

that are truly meaningful and relevant to you,

28:40

and you know subconsciously, subliminally

28:43

or virtual level it, or even consciously that

28:45

this has been brought to you by MasterCard, and you feel good

28:47

about it. So there is a strong positive

28:50

connection between your feelings and

28:52

the enabler, which is in this case MasterCard.

28:54

So we're rethinking marketing completely.

28:58

And you know, I actually returned the book

29:00

called Quantum Marketing, which went on

29:02

to become a Wall Street a General bestseller.

29:04

Congrats right way, Thank you so much that one

29:07

lots of awards. I feel very very grateful

29:09

for that. And many business schools have

29:11

actually changed the marketing curriculum

29:14

in their NBA program based

29:16

on my book. And so

29:18

what we're talking about is the way you do marketing today

29:21

is not going to work tomorrow. You need to reinvent

29:23

marketing in the new context

29:26

of cultural changes that have happened and are

29:28

happening. They're literally tectonic

29:30

changes. Then you're talking about

29:33

technologies coming at as like a tsunami. More

29:35

than twenty four different technologies like AI,

29:37

A are we are, You've got a

29:40

body called autonomous driving vehicles, sit

29:42

aroun of things, wearables, twenty four different

29:44

technologies each one capable

29:46

of disrupting life's twenty four

29:48

of them together will totally alter lives altogether.

29:51

So marketing has to really leverage those technologies

29:53

and not get obsolete or left behind. And

29:56

then there is data every time,

29:58

Like you know, people have connected a thermostats,

30:01

connected tooth prussures, connected commotes and coffee

30:03

makers, so everything is connected

30:05

and these connected devices are gathering

30:07

information. So we need to be

30:10

very careful of consumers privacy,

30:12

be in incredibly respectful of

30:15

their privacy. And even as you're respecting

30:17

the privacy, then figure out what am I going to do

30:19

with all this data? How can it make sense out

30:21

of it and how can it be in better service

30:23

of the consumers tomorrow. No,

30:26

between the technology, data, and the cultural

30:28

shifts between the three of them, marketing

30:30

is not going to be the same. And the new way of

30:32

doing marketing is quantum marketing and MasterCards

30:35

is my labs. MasterCard is my labs literally

30:38

where we are trying out and then figuring

30:41

out what works, what doesn't work, and then take it on.

30:43

So it's been a fun journey. What excites

30:45

you about the future now, right,

30:47

You've been doing this for a long time. You've

30:50

seen the world change real fast, and

30:52

it gets faster every single year. The

30:54

way you market and the way you sell

30:57

is very different today than it was when

30:59

I got to the business thirteen years ago. It's

31:01

very different than the way it was. You

31:04

know, it's less door to door now, which is great,

31:06

um, but it's also overwhelming because there's

31:09

almost too many options. So

31:13

thinking about marketing, branding,

31:15

and sales in the ties

31:18

and beyond, how do you

31:20

stay motivated and how

31:22

do you how do you plan for success

31:25

when there is so much noise and you

31:28

can't win with dollars. Dollars

31:31

is not the way to win at all. Uh.

31:33

In fact, you know, when I look at the

31:35

future, I talk about the

31:37

advent of the fifth paradigm of marketing.

31:40

So if you go back in time, marketing

31:43

used to be in its very first parody, very

31:45

product centric. I've got

31:47

a great product, packaged, beautifully

31:49

priced, appropriately available next

31:52

door, consumers well flocked

31:54

by product. And why because consumers

31:56

the logical in their thinking and

31:58

rational in their behavior. Why would they go anywhere

32:01

else? If we get the best product, best price,

32:03

great packaging, easy availability.

32:05

That used to prevade for a long time, actually

32:07

for more than two thousand years. Literally, But

32:10

then marketers discovered

32:13

that now people are not rational

32:16

in their thinking our actions. They're not logical,

32:18

they're emotional, they're full of feelings,

32:21

they're irrational. Actually, that

32:23

was the second paradigm of marketing when sociology,

32:26

psychology, anthropology, they came into marketing.

32:29

It prevailed for a good number of years,

32:32

and in mid ninety nineties

32:34

Internet came about, Data analytics

32:36

came about into marketing. It changed

32:38

the face of marketing totally. It was

32:41

like people are starting again in

32:43

terms of marketing. That is the

32:45

third paradigm, which is data driven marketing. Then

32:47

in two thousand and seven, iPhone was launched

32:50

and social media platforms scaled,

32:52

starting with Facebook. That brought

32:55

marketing into the fourth paradigm. Each

32:57

of these paradigm shifts was being enabled

32:59

by two technologies at a time. But

33:02

going forward, we are at the cusp

33:04

of this fourth and fifth paradigms

33:07

where we are going to be disrupted by twenty

33:09

four technologies, each one incredibly

33:11

powerful, and the collection of this twenty

33:13

four is mind boggling. Everything

33:16

that we learned in marketing till now is

33:18

going to fall flat on its face. It's

33:22

like you're recreating the entire concept

33:24

of marketing, reimagining it totally,

33:27

new frameworks, new structures.

33:29

Just to give an example, I keep

33:31

saying this often that advertising

33:33

as we know it is dead. Loyalty

33:38

doesn't exist. Loyalty is dead.

33:41

There's not a concept of loyalty. Human

33:43

beings are not hardwired for loyalty,

33:45

period Dogs are. Human

33:47

beings are not. So what's

33:50

the point of brand's running loyalty programs.

33:52

They need stickiness of the consumers, but they

33:54

have to reimagine the entire paradigm. Ah,

33:58

Purchase funnels don't exist. Purchase worlds

34:00

are collapsed. So what I'm

34:02

saying is every single facet and tenet

34:05

of marketing the way we know it is falling

34:07

is failing or falling apart. So we

34:09

need to reinvent and rethink and

34:12

marketing when you do this is so

34:14

enabled with all these technologies and

34:16

data and everything happening. I

34:18

almost feel like I've been trained

34:20

these last thirty six years to

34:23

now enter the real field of marketing.

34:25

Some at the start of the journey literally of this

34:28

fifth paradigm, which is incredibly exciting.

34:30

There's the most inspiring moment and one of the good

34:32

things Ryan is I

34:34

might sound Pollyannish on this. But

34:37

the reality is there is something fantastic

34:40

you feel when you feel

34:42

when you realize that they have made a contribution

34:45

for the betterment of somebody or some

34:48

groups, or some communities or some countries. Marketing

34:52

of future is not just

34:54

about shareholders and your company's profits,

34:57

but it's going to be grounded in ethics,

34:59

int aegrity and good for

35:01

the community, of the social good. So marketing

35:04

is going to be a force for the growth

35:06

of the company but also for the good of the

35:08

society. Now, we

35:10

experimented with a few We started

35:12

at MasterCard with Cancer Cures,

35:15

so we partnered with Stand Up to Cancer. Were

35:18

raised about fifty dollars for them.

35:20

We created campaigns, we did a whole bunch of things.

35:23

Our job is easy, but they created

35:25

drugs, that discovered drugs which got ft

35:27

aproved seven drugs in the record

35:30

time. And when patients

35:32

actually occasionally right to MasterCard saying

35:35

that thank you MasterCard. And we do this with MLB

35:38

and World Series and All Stars

35:40

and all that, where we say the stand up,

35:42

stand up moment, stand up to cancer moment,

35:45

so you stand up for somebody against cancer

35:47

and you hold the board et cetera. The kind of

35:49

emotional response which we get is gratifying.

35:52

Are getting into things like the

35:55

Touch card for the blind people, and

35:57

I have personally received letters from some of

35:59

the parents of blind children saying

36:02

that this is so profoundly meaningful, Thank you

36:04

so much for doing it. I think that in

36:06

itself makes it worth it. But it

36:09

is not just to feel good. This is going

36:11

to be a requisite. Consumers are

36:13

going to vote with their wallets for

36:16

the brands which do social good, which

36:18

are purpose driven, not just for political

36:20

correctness and to give a non nice sound

36:23

bites. It's not about sound bites and political

36:25

correctness and optics. It's about

36:27

such substance. Consumers are not idiots.

36:30

They see through us in a heartbeat,

36:33

and therefore you have to be authentic, consistent.

36:36

Since you're committed and demonstrate

36:38

what value you're adding, you will win big

36:40

time. And again, this is not just you

36:43

know, uh, for the sake of statement

36:45

I'm saying, but I've read a full chapter in about

36:47

it in my book. Specifically because

36:49

this is making such a big difference to us, whether

36:52

it is for attracting the right talent and retaining

36:54

them. Now, they want to be the place where their

36:56

social good. They're exactly

36:59

and people are wanting to buy, even paying a premium,

37:01

the products which are actually contributing good to the

37:03

society. So this is going to be the most

37:06

exciting phase of marketing and number so

37:08

I inspired and I wish I'll have longevity

37:10

to see from the next few decades

37:12

of working. But that's called

37:14

visual thinking. Big

37:18

Money Energy is hosted by me Ryan

37:21

Sirhand. It's produced by Mike Coscarelli

37:23

and Joe Lorreesca, an executive produced

37:25

by Lindsay Hoffman. Find more podcasts

37:28

like Big Money Energy on the I Heart Radio

37:31

app or wherever you get your podcasts.