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And welcome for outward slaves live happily queer

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infested podcast are rare louder and editor at

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Slate or that this week with another round

0:52

of advice for all of our beloved Lgbt

0:55

cuties out there thanks to those of you

0:57

who said and letters that was really great

0:59

to see and are inbox this week. Listeners

1:02

please follow that example and send us

1:04

more are going to be during this regularly

1:06

so the more of your problems whether they're

1:08

low stakes are high drama that we get

1:10

the more useful or maybe sometimes even entertaining.

1:13

I don't know this will be. As

1:15

always we. Love. To hear voices so

1:17

son voice memos if you can. But

1:19

letters are also okay. Sonos to our

1:21

podcast at slate.com Okay today I'm joined

1:24

by to excellent her advisers. The first

1:26

is Danny Labrie who you already know

1:28

but just in case were slaves to

1:31

prudence from a twenty six ten to

1:33

twenty twenty one and just generally a

1:35

sage about the internet I would say.

1:38

And we also have my wonderful Sight

1:40

audio colleague and writer model and Disarm

1:42

who was a producer on sites excellent

1:44

daily news show. What next? If you're

1:47

not listening to what next to go,

1:49

subscribe to that right now. Hey everybody,

1:51

how are you doing? I'm. Good

1:53

at snowing. It's beautiful out it is.

1:55

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1:57

I a long time listener of the.

2:00

Our To End slates, advice,

2:02

podcasts and The Advice. Universe

2:04

so I'm excited he had like

2:06

universal. Than

2:08

a hard year. I'm doing

2:10

great. I also I like as get the

2:12

last couple years every year we get snow

2:14

later in the eye and and so with

2:17

that is just relief to be like. Okay

2:19

this isn't the first winter with no snow

2:21

which is a line I'm sure we'll cross

2:23

soon, but it's nice know that that would

2:26

be this year he asked us to sort

2:28

out know there's something there's something kind of

2:30

Sudan to my you know climate change anxiety

2:32

or whenever a depression whether that called to

2:34

six the surface at least from one day.

2:37

Maybe that snow spirit will influx the turn

2:39

of the podcast. There was a little

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into these letters. We've got a pretty

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interesting Saturday. Some of them are kind

2:52

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slate.com/podcast Plus.

4:16

From Vog. Was here for a word

4:18

of advice episode. When it arrives workers

4:21

are some which comes to us from

4:23

facial so paw. Hi. Our

4:25

team. I've never been the bus with our

4:27

names and faces, but have typically manage just

4:30

fine until very recently. A couple of years

4:32

ago I got a less common facial piercings

4:34

and suddenly stand out from a crowd considerably

4:36

more than I had grown used to. On

4:38

top of this, the sub cultures and groups

4:41

I participate in a fairly nice but with

4:43

large, an interconnected audience. Lots of friends, of

4:45

friends, of friends and a few enemies, but

4:47

that's neither here nor there. I keep getting

4:49

into trouble ahead with my inability to recognize

4:51

people. I have had half a conversation with

4:54

one time six months. Ago to that. but

4:56

they still greet me by name and when

4:58

we bump into each other again again because

5:00

of that piercing and he said for remembering

5:03

names and faces better or at least graceful

5:05

ways to ask someone to reminds you of

5:07

their name for the third time and as

5:10

many years. Thanks. I doesn't a

5:12

service and which has this question. I know it's

5:14

not exactly like a queer question, but I do

5:16

think this issue can come up and queer circles

5:18

more often because they are smaller and these with

5:21

this sub cultures that the letter writer describes I

5:23

think could be thought of as as queer. Some

5:25

of those are probably queer. certainly have a new

5:27

they gay guys always are now anyway. whatever what

5:29

is it would if you guys what do ya

5:32

think about a discussion? Plus I just very much

5:34

like the idea that there are street ways to

5:36

forget someone's name and gateways to produce. And

5:39

is probably true and like similarly.

5:41

Especially if you're in a number of

5:44

small like niche, nice subgroups. There's maybe

5:46

more of an expectation of emotional intimacy.

5:48

and so he has. sort of like

5:50

I met my corporate job and there's

5:53

a sort of like presumes heterosexual culture

5:55

washing over all of us is you

5:57

don't know and save her to be

5:59

as. Their name but it's understood whereas

6:01

like this person I like see at board

6:03

game night twice a year really thinks of

6:06

yeah family and so I have to tread

6:08

on our family. Yeah. Just

6:10

facial. Here's the thing is funny because I

6:12

think like in a lot of queer spaces

6:15

it would just make you further fit. Into

6:17

the crowd so unlikely. What do you piercing

6:19

like? Which part of your face. But

6:21

I'm looking that I noticed about this

6:23

is that this person seems a very

6:25

active social life and I was like

6:27

hell yeah you go, That's awesome And

6:29

I think one thing that's a little

6:32

more a really have failed me in

6:34

the social context of not remembering someone's

6:36

name is could you bring. Over somebody who

6:38

you do know the name of and you

6:40

it's her. deep. Sadness. Nine.nine or ten

6:42

times that person whose name you can't

6:44

remember will say oh hey, it's so

6:47

good to meet you. I'm. Todd.

6:50

There's an m ah, sometimes they don't

6:52

though. See, gotta be ready for when

6:54

that happens And you can be weird.

6:57

but a farm in terms of remembering

6:59

people's names and faces better I don't

7:01

really know. is there. As.

7:03

I have a good to. Go. To

7:06

light. Tactic. Or

7:08

strategy or I was thinking often a certain

7:10

has a press advance the publisher so give

7:12

you like a seat with everyone who's gonna

7:14

be raised around important is going to be

7:17

their their faces and their names I often

7:19

find myself like wasn't fun at parties are

7:21

as I suffer from the so much look

7:23

at a religious have a very bad memory

7:26

for faces. And

7:28

so you're not going to be given that. I

7:30

mean, What? I thought when reading this

7:32

was like. A. Lot of people

7:34

struggle with those to some degree and I

7:36

think that maybe not as upset by it

7:38

as a letter writer is thinking i hope

7:40

not whatever, be bored or not so wrapped

7:42

up in the arab get her and master

7:44

of needing to be called by their names

7:46

at all the time to get upset about

7:48

though so maybe you know be less hard

7:50

on yourself I would say. I

7:53

love that man on what you said a

7:55

surgery that eavesdropping are like the asking someone

7:57

else that that little triangulation you decided to

7:59

give. The idea that often I think

8:01

it's it can be really helpful. But

8:04

you know as you get are trying to think

8:06

it's kind of like a scripts when you get

8:08

to that moment where there's just no other way

8:10

to get around that I really think it's okay

8:13

to be like oh gosh I'm so sorry. I

8:15

know he is Matt ah but I'm just blanking

8:17

on your name because you could you please or

8:19

I may I think that's sigh and like most

8:22

people are gonna. Be happy to

8:24

tell you their name, er nog and hot

8:26

hold a God. I don't think it's just

8:28

be honest and maybe you know it to

8:30

a Danny was saying like that the emotional

8:32

are presumed emotional intimacy of some of these

8:34

spaces, Some of them queer. Maybe

8:37

allows for a little more honesty about

8:39

about the since it's like sale a

8:42

things at at allow depicts a study

8:44

up on Instagram before you go to.

8:46

Sometimes you know their photos from like

8:49

the last gathering to sleep. Do a

8:51

quick search and. Vr and at. The.

8:54

As people can be annoying about. The user names though

8:56

especially clears owners are like. My

8:58

username is fresh Boiled Eggs

9:00

and you like verify. Your nine

9:02

or so many people who who's against M

9:04

Handle is their name and my mind and

9:07

it's like know that's not as Cessna facilities

9:09

and. Can't

9:11

say that allowed. yeah it's better suited and

9:13

an identity the only like popsicle thoughts about

9:16

those I think so Yes oh where he

9:18

wasn't totally clear to me is this was

9:20

all happening at like social gatherings where they

9:22

were bumping into people in the street. So

9:24

I agree if this is like at a

9:27

friends get together, absolutely ask your friend for

9:29

you had over where my me as you

9:31

know. X Where's the people? I

9:33

think I would have. Either one of

9:35

two suggestions. one is concerned. a little bit

9:37

goofy, but like if you keep a little.

9:40

Cursory diary and just happened to legs

9:42

and sketched out to be interesting to

9:44

revisit later like a job. Soon as

9:46

I wrote to you bump into. And.

9:49

To do something quick like saw this

9:51

person. They know that for some are

9:53

wearing a green coach. Honestly don't go

9:56

harriet the spy and like start looking

9:58

for an uncle has hundred. I'm.

10:02

But. I you know that's one

10:04

possibility, especially. If you just hoping to sort

10:06

of strength in your memory for faces and

10:08

people, it won't be perfect necessarily. but it

10:10

it'll help to sort of embed those grew

10:12

into your memory better. The other I think

10:15

is. Either. You can just

10:17

have a pleasant conversation if you see someone like

10:19

waiting for the bus for a few minutes. And

10:21

don't worry about getting their name of the other

10:23

as if you are going to ask out, they

10:25

do it right away the onto it. Halfway through

10:27

the conversation. Because again, like Yelp and saying none

10:29

of. This is a huge deal, but you

10:32

also is possible even if someone's really reasonable

10:34

to feel a little bit slated to dismiss

10:36

they say case you don't think that memorable

10:38

so I understand why you feel it's important

10:41

even though you're aware it's not like

10:43

a mortal. insults. Do it in immediately and

10:45

keep your apology priests. Yeah, I think

10:47

our people are may be inclined to do

10:49

a big song and dance of like

10:51

I really apologize because what they want to

10:54

communicate as I'm really sorry it's not

10:56

your fault. It's not that you're not memorable,

10:58

but the longer it gets, the. More. It

11:00

can feel sort of like. Unintentionally

11:02

d is like oh darling, has a

11:05

cabin bothers run a many things. It's

11:07

like a member of that character and

11:09

house is always saying I would child

11:11

in such matters. Yeah, so much as

11:14

run the risk of sounding a little

11:16

bit like don't expect me to remember

11:18

your name, I simply can't again. So.

11:21

Just say like I'm so sorry would you remind me

11:23

your name and. Don't go into details about how

11:25

hard faces are for you to. They think

11:27

someone would just feel a lot easier about.

11:29

great were having a quick back in Cs.

11:31

Yeah, you're not going into great detail about

11:33

the like blames Dubois weaknesses of your mother

11:35

or your husband like born a lost on

11:37

a litter and like reminded constantly. And

11:39

I do success. The fact that this person wrote

11:42

an means that they had a self awareness about

11:44

this and a kind of think it might layout.

11:46

Impart, Solved the problem which yields

11:48

just pay closer attention. Because.

11:51

You're aware of the fact that this is a

11:53

problem for you so much so that you wrote

11:55

in yeah stranger to to asked her at the

11:57

outset of or apologize or over explain to say.

12:00

I would you buy me your name and

12:02

then carry on with the conversation and be

12:04

friendly. Yeah yeah, yeah social so far but

12:06

you are not a child in such matters

12:09

as I love this. I decided a little

12:11

dire adding I might take that up myself

12:13

as the house and something to sexy They

12:15

like habits or it's very. Late and Gilded

12:17

age like that Tv sell. It just seems like

12:20

the kind of thing that they would do. Now.

12:23

I love that. I love that idea. yeah

12:25

and latest calling it like my Encounters Yeah

12:27

man, that's that's great. That's a good at

12:29

it anywhere. Get a mile and you want

12:31

to share our next letter with us. Sure,

12:34

Absolutely this one is. A little bit heavier

12:36

so bear with us as as a little

12:39

bit harder. Dear esteemed panel of judges which

12:41

is a funny way to address the summit

12:43

Also that the city or outward fight us.

12:45

I'm a thirty something lesbian who grew up

12:47

in an abusive household. I'm a strange my

12:49

parents and some my siblings and only came

12:52

out to three members of my family. The

12:54

on the desire never to talk to you

12:56

or see either my parents. Again, and some

12:58

petty level I feel like they don't deserve.

13:00

To know anything about my life as it is now,

13:02

I'm very proud of our Come in the first two

13:04

decades of my life and feel immensely blaster to life

13:07

unable to leave. Now, whenever people ask what my parents,

13:09

I'm quite a front about the fact that I don't

13:11

talk to them if there. Are followup questions. I

13:13

simply explained that they are bad people and I'm

13:15

at peace without them in my life. If

13:18

people keep pushing and I'm not comfortable

13:20

to those in my past I sometimes

13:22

lie and say that it's because the

13:24

homophobic as needless trying only ever comes

13:26

from heterosexual tone deaf people who quickly

13:28

change the subject after dinner comes up,

13:31

which is perfect. I feel very emotionally

13:33

conflicted. About the sly and I don't want to

13:35

appropriate. Unique trauma being rejected or abandoned

13:37

for your queer identity. Said I dislike

13:39

until people. That my parents are deceased.

13:41

I worried that any start, Ally. Like.

13:44

Are they like they are dead

13:46

or as so pastas and will

13:49

create a continuous need for subterfuge?

13:51

Subterfuge. That word is. I. Also

13:53

don't want to offend people and the more

13:55

he the tried to go see take them

13:58

to back the eyeball even after thirteen. And

14:00

just talking about my parents still kicks off

14:02

stress response. Am I nervous systems? The. Makes

14:04

the hard to think straight and is uncomfortable moments.

14:07

Basically my question is does this make me a

14:09

bad person and to any to stop using this

14:11

crush live. From. The parent

14:13

trap. Woo.

14:15

Ri job yeah as heard executive me a

14:17

minute to totally understand what's happening in the

14:20

photos, photos on a maybe pull out a

14:22

few things for listeners. The lie is in

14:24

the boot loader at it. Does not speak

14:26

to their parents or someone to talk about

14:28

their pants, people are asking about their parents

14:30

are just asking about you and your family

14:33

and they have been lying saying that the

14:35

reason they don't talk as homophobia when in

14:37

fact it was just a D s like

14:39

it wasn't homophobia per se that was happening

14:41

right? Yeah, but it was it because they

14:44

weren't how they were now. Yet they went

14:46

out. But also it's interesting that the

14:48

the line only comes up a couple of

14:50

degrees. and yeah, somebody will say what are

14:52

your parents like oh, I don't talk to

14:55

them. Oh won't you talk to them. They're

14:57

bad people. Oh how are they that people

14:59

And then the live hands up. So.

15:01

That it takes a little bit of time to get. There in

15:03

terms of how they're bringing us down. Yeah,

15:06

My first reaction when I read this is the

15:08

idea swapping and this they are dead starter like

15:10

a son is a bad I got a susceptible

15:12

to that I think that is going to be

15:14

get more questions yeah was always says and I

15:17

said I was somebody. Who's ah, what of

15:19

My parents died when I was eighteen

15:21

and sell. All it does is

15:23

bigger questions on. And as you're

15:25

going to end of the spiraling out and your to feel the

15:27

stress response and then going to get it's is not a good

15:30

idea for don't do that. I could take

15:32

sir I feel the same way I was

15:34

in her I was a gift of homophobia

15:36

as the lies making you feel badder icky

15:38

of the i don't think does if it

15:41

says the know feel sadder as workers as

15:43

you to set it sucks up this possibility

15:45

for some kind of like curb your enthusiasm

15:47

spiral of just like ridiculous nurse like I

15:50

can to see that going and so many

15:52

bad directions so I don't think you want

15:54

to substitute.and to see think that i i

15:56

don't know the we want a lie at

15:59

all I agree. In it, away from the

16:01

lang that video and down. Their arms

16:03

a kind of wish I. Knew a

16:05

little bit more about. Like is

16:07

this coming up when people are like. Broadly

16:10

talking about family at work or

16:13

like making small talk at a

16:15

party or friends of friends Because

16:17

in some of those situations, my

16:19

advice would be not to share

16:21

the fact that you're a strange

16:23

from your family. Yeah, certain. certainly.

16:26

I can appreciate that. It is

16:28

not. Appropriate or palais of people

16:30

to like continue asking follow up questions

16:32

when you're sort of making it clear

16:34

you don't wanna go into detail, but

16:36

I also wanna be easy on. These

16:38

people are right. For. Better or

16:40

for worse people, Family is a part

16:43

of small talk conversation in a lot

16:45

of context. And it's that you don't

16:47

It's still a big ticket item. family estrangement,

16:49

And so people are naturally curious when they

16:52

hear about it again. That doesn't mean every

16:54

question anybody asks you is like reasonable or

16:56

that you are I you know, doing something

16:58

wrong. I just think that I'm. It's

17:01

a lot to ask. Someone. You don't know very

17:03

well to handle. Yeah So at for

17:05

example I don't bring up the sack

17:07

that I am a strange from my

17:09

family. in plenty of smalltalk conversations his

17:12

family is coming up. I will either.

17:14

You. Know it's It's not that often that

17:16

people will say directly to me like you

17:18

know, where's your sister today but I might

17:21

certainly just say whatever quickest. like. I wouldn't

17:23

out and out lie, but if someone asks

17:25

me how many siblings I have also chip

17:27

I don't say to but we don't speak.

17:31

Again and again. Like that's a lot of

17:33

pressure to put on a light social tie,

17:35

and so I think the way that might

17:37

help you to refrain some of this is

17:39

to think about: How can I make this

17:41

conversation easier for the person I'm talking to

17:43

instead of getting an antagonistic. Sense of this

17:46

person's trying to pry something out of me and

17:48

such as think what's the truest thing I could

17:50

say that would. Place. The least amount

17:52

of burden on you so I think maybe to

17:54

that and if it comes up in such a

17:56

way where it's totally unavoidable. I would maybe to

17:58

say sound like you know we're actually. But

18:01

and then kind. Of try to move on

18:03

to the next part of the conversation and

18:05

don't go into detail about it. Don't make

18:07

it sound like they're some big dark secret

18:09

behind it to sort of lay, you know

18:11

we're pretty scattered. I come from a pretty

18:13

small family, or just we're. Not. We're not

18:16

in a ton of contact, but and then,

18:18

whatever. Else you're talking about and of

18:20

lean into that says there's just the

18:22

sort of gentle shepherding away rather than

18:24

we don't talk but don't ask many

18:26

questions, which again is understandable desire. I

18:28

don't mean to make it sound like

18:31

that's too much, but it is. It's

18:33

a lot. It's tough. Yeah, I do

18:35

think it's. You made a

18:37

good point. Any which is that I think

18:39

the people who are asking more questions are

18:41

worried about appearing callous. Yes, they don't just

18:44

want to move on after you've said something.

18:46

That is. That's like

18:48

I think bombs them out and

18:50

makes them feel bad for you.

18:52

You know I think like somebody

18:54

hears oh you're strange and. If

18:57

it's some, it's as if I were to

18:59

say on estranged from the family Member Season

19:01

and the other person were to just be

19:04

like oh cool. Moving onto Two thousand also

19:06

probably feel kinda bad right arm and I

19:08

think that these people are trying to be

19:10

generous with you and are trying not to

19:12

be. Callous so at maybe

19:14

that resigning can help. The other thing is

19:17

is that. Back to

19:19

the question of the appropriation of

19:21

a specific kind of trauma. I

19:23

didn't this person's not being. Gentle

19:27

enough with themselves and like counter, tender

19:29

enough at themselves about the things that

19:31

they've looked through Vicinity Really proud. Of.

19:34

All. They've overcome and I actually. A

19:36

foia? Yes. And I actually think

19:38

that. You shouldn't

19:40

worry that the. The. Trauma

19:43

you gesture towards that like does the job

19:45

that you know. End the conversation in

19:47

a way that you want to is

19:49

not exactly. Precisely or trauma like. I don't really

19:51

think that that's a huge. Deal.

19:53

On So if you want to keep doing. This.

19:56

Little lie to get people to stop talking at

19:58

the. Point that. You're

20:00

describing it coming up like. Think.

20:03

That's like morally fine. I think we all

20:05

do like. We're. Blinds said ah,

20:07

move along and or her days and it

20:09

sounds like that's kind of what you're using

20:11

it for and you also didn't live through

20:13

something really hard and so don't think you

20:15

should dismiss that. There. May. Be

20:17

you guys maybe both disagree. I don't know. Annoy

20:19

thick and you know over a month other half

20:22

was. Like. Literally homophobia was a necessary

20:24

part of that decision but it probably is. It

20:26

seems likely that it would have felt like it's

20:28

like if you know if like as I don't

20:30

know yet but it seems unlikely that family members

20:33

described here as as abuse of we don't have

20:35

all the details of course with but I don't

20:37

think we need them. I think it's pump likely

20:39

that they would also be homophobic right? I don't

20:42

think that your lights appropriating too far. Yeah letter

20:44

writer I love would you If you've both sad

20:46

because I think I approached this I was going

20:48

to say something to the effect of like the

20:50

people during this are really rude to you. But

20:53

actually I'm convinced by the idea that they're

20:55

most likely time to be gentle and generous

20:57

at trying to like not seal Alice torture

21:00

letter writer your experience of that that is

21:02

a helpful reclaiming. I do think so if

21:04

you trial of the great ideas, the done

21:06

and my one has heard and people still

21:09

keep pressing I think it is okay to

21:11

get to like a place of I appreciate

21:13

your interest but I don't wanna talk about

21:16

this anymore. Stab you can set it down

21:18

right like a summit is really being nosy

21:20

and it doesn't feel genuine. And the way.

21:22

That you have been talking about I think

21:24

having that language is also signed an just

21:26

to reiterate I think not giving any. Points.

21:30

Of curiosity will help with a So yeah. Saying

21:32

that they are bad people is a point of

21:34

curiosity right? That makes me want to nine and

21:36

my where they like So yeah that's it your

21:38

fault but it has something to think about keeping

21:41

and any said this getting it as like. Tennis.

21:43

Slot as possible. Or. Probably

21:46

reduce the number of times people are are

21:48

are trying to dig and help you get

21:50

away from these conversations faster. You. Keep

21:52

a boring right to be

21:55

clear. If somebody says I'm

21:57

estranged from my family, the pool and it's awesome And

21:59

you know. Well, the polite thing is just

22:01

to say some variation of i'm sorry to

22:03

hear that and I don't like allow the

22:05

conversation to keep moving. Totally so to be

22:07

clear, I don't want to say like oh

22:09

yeah, what they're doing is great, but I

22:12

think of it as a little bit. like

22:14

because these are clearly not close friends. These

22:16

are people that you don't know very well.

22:18

Yeah, man, you don't know someone very well.

22:20

There's only so many rules that govern polite

22:22

and appropriate conversation. and when you introduce something

22:24

like family estrangement, it's It's a little. Bit like

22:26

everyone is now in the deep end and they don't. Know

22:28

what they're doing so. At again,

22:31

that doesn't mean you've done something wrong, you're

22:33

just acknowledging the truth. You didn't incense the

22:35

idea of family strange mets, But I do

22:37

think it really helps to think like what

22:39

they're trying to do in that conversation is

22:41

get back to. Politeness and safety and

22:43

agreement. And so. What they're trying to

22:46

do is is acknowledged like I'm really sorry if

22:48

I were a strange. My family. I would feel

22:50

really sad. I would want something that could

22:52

recuperate it like maybe things will get better

22:54

some day or maybe like again. If.

22:56

They had some time to think it

22:58

through. They probably wouldn't say those things

23:01

they'd realize, like actually implying that maybe

23:03

someday it'll get better or you'll realize

23:05

you've misunderstood something. Kind of makes you

23:07

seem like a fool, but they're just

23:09

trying to get to a place where

23:11

things feel safe and nice and so

23:13

don't don't put them into this place

23:15

where you know they can't swim and

23:17

so do you have to to keep.

23:19

Them in the shallow and which is again. that's what.

23:21

Polite conversation is for ya to stay in

23:23

a shallow and for this very reason because

23:25

it is difficult to talk about huge you

23:27

know, big ticket items unless you know someone

23:29

pretty well. Yeah, I think just like you

23:31

know we don't have to be close, but

23:33

I've got some really wonderful friends and the

23:35

city and yeah, we have wonderful holiday traditions

23:37

and actually maybe you let one of them

23:39

Mark you know we we get together every

23:41

weekend and now you're safe again system where

23:43

people you like you can move back into

23:45

that. Are

23:47

it's job I. Saw.

23:53

It would be right back. Are

24:03

a lot about New here during an ordinary

24:05

Citizens. As much

24:08

or for the next one is

24:10

a three year old post to

24:12

their relationship advice sub reddit. So

24:14

whatever this and regional person decided

24:16

to do has long since. Happened,

24:18

but we just. Get to Sort of

24:20

interesting we speculate which is always fun. So

24:22

did his. Overheard my stepdaughter talking to her

24:24

friends about being clear. would like to express

24:27

support without letting her know I've heard. Title.

24:30

Pretty much covers it. My tween step daughter was

24:32

hanging out with some friends couple of weeks ago

24:34

and was talking time about a girl she liked

24:36

at school. She not much anyone in. The family

24:38

and I've not hold any one and don't intend

24:40

to. I would love to be

24:42

able to express to her that we of

24:45

course love her no matter who she loves,

24:47

but I'm not exactly subtle most of the

24:49

time. so if anyone had a similar experience,

24:51

maybe someone wish they'd heard something to their

24:53

parents before coming out a be. Don't say

24:55

anything at all and it's just business as

24:57

usual. Interested to know how others might approach

24:59

this? Thanks. And then there's an edit. the

25:01

Bottomless as I really appreciate all the thoughtful

25:04

answers it's give me some confidence in moving

25:06

forward. Consensus is to just wait until she's

25:08

ready. I'll be mindful of my own language

25:10

and actions in the meantime. Plex. Or

25:17

three scissors suppose we need some sort so

25:20

much and I i one of the things

25:22

I do at Slate as at some of

25:24

Care and feeding our parenting advice column and

25:26

this situation has come up a number of

25:28

times on. It's always so sweet to hear

25:30

our wanting to do the right sang riot

25:32

like air and and being sensitive to dots

25:34

ah I'm. Data. No matter what he

25:36

or do you think about it. As

25:40

a one I really liked the self

25:42

awareness of dispersed of this person who

25:45

wrote a said yeah not exactly a

25:47

full time on. Speak as I do. You

25:49

think somebody who is not subtle but didn't have

25:51

that self awareness. Would. Have immediately

25:54

been like you got any

25:56

quraishi was in our boys

25:58

or perhaps girl singing. And

26:01

so I gotta than others of awareness of.

26:03

I also would say that led. The.

26:07

To. Sing that. This. Gives

26:09

you is just time to

26:12

prepare for the conversation. One

26:14

the twin. Step daughter does

26:16

want to have it and I think that

26:18

that's a really that's a huge blessing because

26:20

I think a lot of parents don't have

26:23

that and then what happens is you end

26:25

up. Reacting. And responding

26:27

in real time in a way that lake maybe.

26:30

Is. You know even if somebody is

26:32

not a like raging big as they can

26:34

make we're faces. I'm going on and

26:36

weird ways or this zone? Yeah,

26:38

exactly. And. I think like.

26:41

If somebody is in this situation, they

26:43

have. Been given like a little

26:46

guess. That is a ton of time

26:48

to be thoughtful about this and maybe

26:50

even talks to on. You

26:52

know, clear friends to say like. William.

26:54

What's like what puts the thing that you wanted

26:57

to hear and you're coming. Out conversation

26:59

I you know of lot.

27:01

Ah, I want to make sure I do this right

27:03

is. Any of my kids and my

27:06

senses ever come out. You don't need to mention

27:08

any of this thing that you heard. Just like

27:10

it's it's a way that serve as a

27:12

ring data gathering. The lake not right for

27:14

reasons but that the things that are going

27:17

to be. Gentle and thoughtful.

27:19

And tender. So. Yeah,

27:21

obviously weight but on. A

27:23

build your little arsenal or love Not Asia

27:26

And the thing about what it what it

27:28

is wired to the in time for myself

27:30

back here and and the hub space before

27:32

I came out my parents and even if.

27:35

Your. Parents are are sort of politically

27:37

you know, in the right. Area

27:40

to be to seem like they'd be

27:42

supportive or whatever being a mom and

27:44

that I'm never called a closet exactly

27:46

the like about had space before you

27:48

decide to share that information. things going

27:50

to seem really scary and you can

27:52

be very like on guard and and

27:54

even like positive just as as as

27:56

you intended to be positive I think

27:58

could read as as. Upset, anger or

28:00

threatening or something because you're in this

28:03

the it's a private thing for awhile

28:05

riot. You're still figuring it out so

28:07

I would be wary of like. Even

28:09

as you know you can imagine someone

28:11

suddenly buying like i don't now rainbow

28:13

paper towels or something like in the

28:15

house to starts to like sites signal

28:17

and our like his yard as like

28:19

i don't you guys thought urge resist

28:21

the urge to like put on you

28:23

know and Simon every night right leg

28:25

of that that I think this is

28:27

gonna it. I mean maybe there's some

28:29

I'm sure. There's some twins have a respond well

28:31

to that's but adding a lot of people are going

28:33

to find not like confronting even though it's antennas are

28:36

going to make it the going to feel like this

28:38

and sound and I and you don't I don't think

28:40

you want to make it feel like at the At

28:42

yeah exactly like it, like a dirty secret in any

28:44

way. and so that's why it's important to wait. And.

28:47

Yeah, I love this idea of sort of

28:49

preparing yourself so that you're ready to have

28:52

that conversation with as much information and and

28:54

sort of caught self comfort or as possible

28:56

that yeah, but you know this is so

28:58

lovely. The village that the run episodes asking

29:00

this because I think that yeah that they're

29:03

going to be in such a great position.

29:05

yeah I noticed was really lovely. I think

29:07

the only thing that I would add is

29:09

the possibility that. At

29:11

this is only a possibility but is

29:14

this was the conversation that your stepdaughter

29:16

with having in the house? It doesn't

29:18

sound like the a step parent was

29:20

like Reading their text messages are like

29:22

listening in on call it made among

29:24

us you know. Consciously.

29:26

Or not, it's possible that she brought this

29:29

up because see sort of wanted to be

29:31

overheard as a sort of way of to

29:33

sleep. Testing the waters are like not

29:35

being afraid. How about it kind of semi openly

29:37

in the house? Again, that doesn't mean he should

29:39

go say hey, I heard what he said. Just

29:41

like. A It sounds like she's at

29:43

least. On some level, trying to sort of

29:45

test the waters of. If I talk

29:48

about being clear in the house like how does

29:50

that feel and so to that and again I

29:52

agree. I don't think like. It. Never

29:54

makes anyone feel great to the here. I overheard

29:56

your phone call. I have some thoughts. And.

29:59

It's okay that not always going to be subtle

30:01

to some of dislike the at letting a pre

30:03

teen ager know that like you'd be cool if

30:05

they came out. Seriously, of course that's going to

30:07

be a little corny no matter how you phrase

30:10

it but I think to just again don't single

30:12

her out especially if there's other kids ride buses.

30:14

Cilic slightly more often mention

30:16

like. The. Existence of crew. People

30:18

that you know or you know as you

30:20

discuss something the possibility of you know and

30:22

some people like men. In some people like

30:24

women and some people like both. And sometimes

30:26

the I was in that again like us

30:28

it will sound cheesy. It will sound like

30:30

an after school special. That's fine. But

30:33

but just generally sort of make it known like

30:35

i think about queer people if you bring it

30:37

up to. Me: you will not be the

30:39

first time someone has ever meant yeah as

30:42

the I think about this independently and positively

30:44

ah Branco do it more than like i

30:46

don't know once a month. Yeah,

30:49

I think that's of us. Really good avast

30:51

submitter a final question which is a very

30:54

brief one. Bad to has a profound one.

30:56

I don't I don't know. I was just

30:58

kind of amused by it's I thought I

31:00

thought we could take a crack. Dear our

31:03

word, why do game and marry and have

31:05

kids and desist from simple and three of

31:07

us may. Maybe something about the letter addressed

31:09

to the sense wider game and married have

31:11

kids. I think we can expand that to

31:13

cripple if we wanna open as V just

31:15

about gay men. But by the we marry

31:17

and have kids I have some thoughts. but

31:19

this event. Is

31:22

I was just thinking like we certainly could expand

31:24

it but the sort of like. I. Could

31:26

I obviously read in a lot? to this

31:28

is my so much to read it, especially

31:30

with simple and free. The implication I got

31:33

was sort of like. Well. Of course

31:35

like gay women aged kids cassettes of him

31:37

and wants it is it's natural normal within.

31:39

Wanna have kids with the they're gay or

31:41

straight. But men don't have to, and frankly,

31:43

shouldn't really want to. And if you have to,

31:45

man, that. Should be like almost zero desire

31:48

for kids. There's no women around the

31:50

place making you do it. So one

31:52

father of and I also our to

31:54

read a little further I would wonder

31:56

if somebody is acts had recently married

31:58

someone and had a kid and. You're

32:00

feeling a little betrayed. Yeah, little bit of like

32:02

I thought we were all going to do. Like

32:04

cool fun such as simple and for evil as

32:06

array. Yeah, and now a bunch of men

32:08

are marrying and having kids with other men. They.

32:10

Might as well be straight. Why am

32:13

I being left behind again?

32:16

Possibly. That's not all the

32:18

settling on such certainly possible at

32:20

someone incredibly homophobic and not also

32:22

gay. but. That. Does mister

32:24

freeze? I love the backstory. yeah I I

32:26

think the up the simple and free made

32:29

me think that it was not our just

32:31

a troll. I think that yeah I think

32:33

you're right. It was like a question from

32:35

someone living a different lifestyle, years in the

32:38

community their concerns. I wanted to answer your

32:40

two parts not just not as have kids

32:42

but married first south officer. Just thought I

32:44

mean sympathy experienced it is of course some

32:47

what about laws but I think a lot

32:49

of people are doing to our community because

32:51

we live in a system where illegal and.

32:53

Economic benefits and productions accrue to marriage that

32:56

a difficult to pass up and for better

32:58

or worse I just make sense. So we

33:00

have talked for decades about time we could

33:02

talk about at runtime here that I think

33:05

that is one reason or I'll a decrease

33:07

in of why the Game On are getting

33:09

married to kids part. It's

33:11

ah much. You. Know I

33:14

I honor as a personal note I

33:16

think one great thing about being gay

33:18

is that it was not until recently

33:20

expected and not. And it's not very

33:22

easy for me to have kids and

33:24

I happy with that like that is

33:26

something that I do enjoy about being

33:29

gay, but. Obviously many gay

33:31

couples that I know personally find great

33:33

joy and child rearing to sex or

33:35

people do. They just want to have

33:37

a certain kind of tell my life

33:39

riot like and they should be allowed

33:41

to. Habits. And

33:43

I don't like earlier and in

33:45

my youth I. Would.

33:48

Have may be brought in like. To

33:50

scary. Word assimilation into those

33:52

are some things. at

33:55

this point i think I don't now as as

33:57

a serious of villager they want you know like

33:59

our of. Kind of lateral. I've let that

34:01

go and I don't think any that is

34:03

wrong for wanting to do that to to

34:06

have children. You know adoption seems noble to

34:08

me if you do on thought but whatever,

34:10

it's not really my business and people liked

34:12

our family. As you know, some of us

34:14

some of us do enjoy being simple and

34:16

free and and living that life that a

34:18

lot of people sign. great meaning and family

34:21

and of them. So it's interesting is

34:23

that like Marion had Qaeda Sort

34:25

of like one word here. it's

34:27

sort of one accent. married, had

34:29

kids that. Assess all of

34:31

a sick. it's like you did Brian useful

34:34

to break down the latest reports one marrying.

34:36

I also think people like to. Throw parties.

34:38

Yeah, I think people like to have a

34:40

big. Big party that is all about.

34:42

None of them at all about

34:44

their love and how profound it

34:47

is. how nobody's ever loved in

34:49

the way that they've love to

34:51

for. Eye on. Things.

34:53

Up as sweet as possible. A

34:55

sense sometimes marrying his. As.

34:57

Much about the lake legal economic benefits

35:00

and. Also about the. I

35:02

want. I have a day of attention about

35:04

our love like that's really fine. This is

35:06

the socially acceptable way to do it. You

35:08

can't really. Force Like one hundred

35:10

and fifty people that are close to you. To

35:12

lie to. Recognize your love to

35:15

this degree. Or they'll dress

35:17

up and drink nice champagne and travel

35:19

very far. At least it's this. Is

35:21

that the way to do that? I'm

35:23

and it's completely socially acceptable and you

35:25

don't sound crazy for asking for that.

35:27

So that was it's It's one thing.

35:30

That people want to throw a party. A gay people

35:32

love to throw parties were very good. As odd as

35:34

it makes sense that we would want to have parties

35:36

on. In terms of having kids, This.

35:39

Is interesting because it makes it sound

35:41

like the kids always follow the marriage

35:43

and that's not true. A lot of

35:45

people have children and then. They

35:47

end up. They. Married and.

35:50

Then. They're gay parents and they may

35:53

be, didn't. Realize. That they

35:55

were going to be when they first had

35:57

children as he statistics before about queer parenthood

35:59

and. The Us and actually the

36:01

states with the like largest amount

36:03

of queer. Parents per capita of

36:06

we have urges are. In. The South

36:08

and it's a lot, right Little marry young

36:10

and then. Get. Divorced and then

36:12

have children from their first marriage As

36:14

and and up me you know in

36:16

queer relationships with children and so. Yeah.

36:19

Maybe that's our at the end of having kids. I

36:22

also think the idea that like it's like

36:24

Mary and then have kids excludes the lake.

36:26

Existence of. People who

36:29

raise children as part of a community

36:31

and like. That's actually

36:33

a way to leave your simple and free

36:35

lifestyle while also having kids. So I think

36:37

this person with a suffer for it. possible

36:40

that the simple and free it's not necessarily

36:42

shade. Maybe it's somebody who. Can't.

36:44

For see a future where they can

36:46

have these things and still be simple

36:49

and for a a lot of people

36:51

do it. I feel like Dan Savage

36:53

has made an entire career about being

36:55

simple in Philly and also be married

36:57

and having kids are so it's possible

36:59

uttered I'll buy My girlfriend lives next

37:01

door to this couple A lucid I

37:03

think that couple that they also seem

37:05

to have. Four

37:07

or five adult men that kind of come and

37:10

go from this house. As far as I've seen,

37:12

Just observing and they have to very small children

37:14

and it seems that they are all taken care

37:16

of them. That's. Wonderful!

37:19

I'd. Say, I think that like there are

37:21

ways to be married, there are ways to

37:24

have kids that are some completely different than

37:26

the was. Married. Have kids.

37:28

Like. Single word single action thing that

37:31

are disclosure so that with my response

37:33

to it perhaps a bit more generous

37:35

than a than the where you to

37:37

read it which was about. By.

37:40

With a generous at all yeah

37:42

Bethesda number of I was rude.

37:45

with other. Of

37:48

her is that are unaware of this athletic

37:50

So I think to me this way I felt

37:52

sort of like the implied thing was because

37:54

they don't have to as if the only reason

37:56

anyone does is kind of thing is because

37:58

they've been brainwashed by society. right? I

38:00

swear it's or. By the all it's. About

38:05

biologically married. Omaha?

38:08

Yeah, I

38:10

don't know. it's it's it's worth giving

38:12

some thought to. Most people eventually do.

38:15

Not. Everyone for most people do so like

38:17

has some curiosity about like a thing that

38:19

most people do at some point in their

38:21

lives like maybe. Maybe. There's

38:23

like meaningful levels of like desire and values wrapped

38:26

up in it. Doesn't mean yes a like it

38:28

or approve of it or think they ought to

38:30

be doing it to psych. It's

38:33

always a little bit. Defensive.

38:35

When somebody tries to describe something to stay

38:37

calm and in we lived you member like

38:39

when there was like a sort of very

38:41

online contingent of like vocally child free people

38:43

who would refer to like gotta be some

38:45

children as like. Fox

38:48

through are just the most. Yeah,

38:50

Rochelle adopted her other sister don't

38:52

like. Or. A man. That's.

38:54

Our previous i'm says it's I was lucky I

38:56

really wanted to try to like. Make.

38:59

Something that a lot of people do,

39:01

sir. Meaningful reason sounds nuts. Yeah, good

39:03

luck to you, But I I I

39:05

don't think it's gonna catch. Ah, it's.

39:10

Not least because it's like what makes adults

39:12

different from children assists the time has passed.

39:14

You yourself are still the saying former jostle

39:16

such a beard, former child people He gets

39:18

people he kids and it's really sad the

39:21

app on me a lot of that means

39:23

you then have to have them or basin

39:25

dislike Find a way to talk about not

39:27

wanting to have children and experiencing. Social pressure

39:29

that does not put the blame on children.

39:31

Six, The children aren't the one being weird

39:33

to you about getting married, having kids. They're

39:36

just I'm not be alive and they have

39:38

no power. Cilic be nice about them. in

39:40

I said Surreal A Sterile. I

39:42

also think that the question is why.

39:45

Does they want to? S

39:48

why I think it's funny. It's

39:50

any you Basically you may the case that last

39:52

couple of thinking about by these things happen on

39:54

like this letter writers but I also think a

39:56

lot of people just disney sings and. Never. Once

39:59

things like. What I want to Do This.

40:01

Let's do it. And that's also

40:03

wonderful. I said. I

40:05

think with a growing clear population,

40:07

you're going to get more people

40:10

who. Ah, I don't

40:12

think too hard about their realize and they

40:14

just do the things that they've always thought

40:16

they were gonna do in life. And I

40:18

don't think about what it means to be

40:20

clear and doing those things at Asu Him

40:22

and that's beautiful. Since the Me I think

40:24

that's great. I love Nothing You Ethics? Yeah,

40:27

My Mother, your mother was in

40:29

a way sounds simple and freeze

40:31

simple in three rivers. Was

40:35

curiosity. For

40:40

have. Thought

40:45

of all the time we have advised

40:48

but a so much time we are

40:50

going to be doing it More authors

40:52

that with monthly service and it's repressive

40:54

remove them we want to hear directly

40:56

from year to sell them those again

40:58

v it was memory or malzieu our

41:00

asses off and always under see that

41:03

are topic ideas at our targets of

41:05

the park or. Acts

41:07

our. I

41:12

have. Never.

41:15

Ever nothing. All I learn

41:17

more about that. Hour

41:20

plus. Was produced

41:23

by Power Saw. You

41:25

like howard? Out

41:29

a family. Other's children. Show

41:33

and other and find that

41:35

are now said I. Was.

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