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Picture Science. It's easy and

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you can give as little

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or as much as you want. you

2:00

like. Thanks for having me. Thank you. We

2:14

can all spot a children's playground. chances

2:16

are it has colored plastic slides and

2:18

a walking bridge over an area strewn

2:20

with wood chips. Such playgrounds have been

2:23

designed for children to have fun but

2:25

moreover to keep them safe while doing

2:27

it. This playground

2:29

looks very different. This

2:33

looks like a junkyard. There are no

2:35

molded plastic structures. Only

2:37

old tires, some cut in half and

2:39

filled with mud. Rotten

2:41

old boards, wheelbarrows, rickety

2:43

ladders. The children over

2:45

there are pounding nails.

2:50

You're hammering real nails? Real

2:52

nails into a board? It's a scene that might terrify

2:56

parents. So why do researchers studying

2:59

children's development recommend dropping your child

3:01

off here unsupervised? Well, to answer

3:04

that we might have

3:07

to remember what it was like to have

3:09

been a child. I'm Molly Bentley at an

3:11

adventure playground in New

3:15

York City. The effort to remove

3:17

all risks from children's play suggests

3:19

we've lost

3:22

sight of why children like to play in the first place or

3:24

for that matter why any species likes to

3:28

play. It's an important question because play

3:30

is more than just fun. It

3:32

has important evolutionary benefits and we're not

3:34

the only ones who like to rough out, to sled

3:36

or to chase a

3:39

ball. And for listeners who have outgrown recess

3:41

and playgrounds, when was the last time

3:45

you felt like you had mindless fun? Find out

3:47

which of your activities constitutes true play

3:51

and which don't. I'm Seth Shostak and

3:53

this is Big Picture Science from

3:55

the SETI Institute. The

4:00

bird said, the place, the

4:02

thing. Let's

4:15

get serious about play. Adults,

4:17

play is valuable. Children, it's

4:20

a necessity. Yet

4:22

we keep favoring work over

4:24

playtime. It's a

4:26

huge mistake to think that people

4:28

are more productive if we keep

4:30

them at the wheel all the time.

4:33

That's a mistake we've made in school, taking

4:36

recess away, taking lunch period away. We think

4:38

they're going to learn more because of it. They're not

4:40

learning more because of it. They were just burning them out. And

4:42

the same thing in the workplace with adults.

4:45

You need breaks. You need time.

4:47

You need relaxation. You need time

4:49

for play and socialization. As

4:52

we consider why play is not

4:54

only fun but maybe important through

4:56

adulthood, it's helpful to begin by

4:58

defining what play is, what constitutes

5:01

play, and why might it have

5:03

evolved. There are many amusing examples

5:05

of non-human animals engaging in

5:07

behaviors that sure look like play.

5:09

Okay, Seth, I want to

5:12

show you this video. So can

5:14

you just describe what you see in this video? What

5:17

I think I'm looking at here is a

5:19

crow who is sliding down

5:21

a roof that's partially

5:23

covered with snow. Can you

5:25

tell what he's sliding on? It's the

5:27

lid to some kind of container. Oh,

5:30

the bird just flipped that lid. And it

5:32

looks like he's going to do it again. I

5:35

just think it's remarkable. He is sliding

5:37

down that roof over and over carrying

5:39

the plastic lid up to the top,

5:41

popping a board, and sliding

5:44

down again. Okay, that crow

5:46

sure looked like he was having fun. But how

5:48

do we know he is actually playing? Or for

5:50

that matter, how do we know he's actually having

5:52

fun? After all, we can't just ask

5:54

him. When a dog fetches a

5:56

stick or rats wrestle or crows right by the end of the room,

5:59

he's going to do it again. as the glids

6:01

down snowy roofs, how do we know

6:03

that what looks like play to us

6:05

really is play? David Toomey

6:07

is professor of English at

6:09

the University of Massachusetts at

6:11

Amherst, and he's the author

6:13

of Kingdom of Play, What

6:15

Ball Bouncing Octopuses, Belly-Flopping Monkeys,

6:17

and Mud-Sliding Elephants Reveal About

6:20

Life Itself. Here are

6:22

the four characteristics that scientists told

6:24

him distinguish play from other activity.

6:26

First, play doesn't help an animal

6:29

stay alive, so the crow sliding

6:31

down the rooftop isn't doing so

6:33

to ensure its own survival. Play

6:36

is voluntary. Three, playing animals have

6:38

varied movements. Each time the crow

6:41

slides down the roof, it moves

6:43

a little differently. By contrast,

6:45

the movements of an animal pacing back

6:47

and forth in a cage are not

6:50

varied. Finally, for the activity

6:52

to be play activity, it must come

6:54

from an animal that is well fed,

6:57

safe, and rested. Well, with

6:59

those defining characteristics in mind, our

7:01

assistant producer Shannon Geary asked David

7:03

Toomey about the behavior of other

7:05

animals, beginning with her childhood

7:08

dog, Brooke. So

7:10

I had a dog growing up. I had

7:12

a little wiener dog named Brooke. She was

7:14

definitely well fed, well taken care of. So

7:16

you know, teaching a dog to say

7:19

sit when offered a treat, or

7:21

teaching an animal to shake hands when

7:23

offered a toy. Would we

7:25

consider that play even though it's

7:27

kind of training? There

7:29

are areas of behavior that may

7:32

mix play with other things, but

7:35

when we throw a stick or a ball and

7:37

the dog chases it and returns, the dog is likely

7:39

to be playing with us. What's

7:42

interesting though about that is the dog

7:45

is also teaching us to play. That is,

7:47

a dog returns the stick to me. I

7:49

throw the stick again in

7:52

a place I want the dog to be able to retrieve

7:54

it. So yes,

7:56

we may be teaching animals to play and training

7:58

them at the same time. in common, they may be

8:00

doing the same to us. In

8:03

the study of play, do we have any

8:05

idea what's happening internally when animals play? Do

8:08

we know what sections of their brain are

8:10

the most active, or what areas of the

8:12

brain are connected to play? There's

8:14

been quite a bit of research on the

8:16

neuroscience of play, much of it conducted by

8:19

Sergio and Vivian Pillis at the

8:21

University of Lethbridge in Canada. The

8:24

experiments the Pillis has been conducting

8:27

over decades at the laboratory rats.

8:30

It's become clear that

8:32

neural networks are reinforced

8:35

by play. We

8:37

also know from these studies

8:39

that male rats need

8:41

play in their use if they

8:44

are going to become well-functioning

8:46

adults. Rats denied play

8:49

are, let's just say, antisocial

8:51

or asocial as adults. They

8:53

are either so aggressive

8:55

that other rats are afraid to play

8:57

with them, or they are

8:59

so timid that they won't play

9:01

with other rats. So yes,

9:04

we do know quite a bit about the

9:06

neurology of play. Now, you

9:09

mentioned some of these studies about rats and

9:11

play in your book, leading to the title

9:13

of my favorite chapter, Let's Go Tickle Some

9:15

Rats, I think it was called. Could

9:17

you describe for our audience, just give us

9:20

a picture of what kind of play these

9:22

rats were engaging with during the experiments where

9:24

we were tracking neural activity. Well,

9:26

rat play is not unlike

9:28

dog play. That

9:30

is to say, a rat in

9:33

the mood to play will try to nuzzle

9:35

the nape of the neck of another rat.

9:37

This is, just parenthetically, this is

9:39

to be distinguished from rat fighting.

9:43

And it's harsh. It's a knife fight. Play

9:45

or play fighting is more like a pillow

9:48

fight. The nape of the neck is the

9:50

target. That's all. So in

9:52

a number of experiments, one

9:54

researcher was curious

9:56

about the sounds rats were making when

9:58

they were playing. They

10:01

were making sounds that were ultrasonic.

10:04

The researcher needed a bat detector,

10:06

a machine that can

10:08

hear the echolocation signals

10:10

of bats and

10:12

transfer those into a range

10:14

that our ears can hear

10:17

and interpret. He did this with

10:19

the rats and it sounds like

10:22

chirping. He

10:24

said it sounded like a playground. He

10:27

and his associates began

10:30

to tickle the rats to see if it

10:32

would induce more chirping and indeed it did.

10:34

I can't imagine putting rat tickler on

10:37

my LinkedIn page. Now

10:40

do animals like rats that are engaging in

10:42

this sort of play fighting behavior? Did

10:44

they ever have the experience that I certainly had

10:46

with my younger brother growing up where it's

10:49

all fun and games until someone gets hurt?

10:51

Do you take play fighting a little bit too

10:53

far and then someone is actually injured? How

10:56

do animals that play fight recover from something

10:58

like that? That's very, very

11:00

interesting. Animals

11:02

that play fight, dogs are,

11:05

I think the most obvious example, have

11:07

protocols for it. Two

11:10

dogs beginning to fight or beginning to

11:12

play fight agree that they're fighting and

11:14

tell the other that they're fighting with

11:16

a rather wide behavior repertoire and one

11:18

movement in the repertoire is to play

11:21

bow. That is if

11:23

I'm a dog and I want you, another dog,

11:25

to play with me, I will bow my head.

11:27

I'll bend my forelegs and put my head near

11:29

the ground lower than your head is. If

11:33

you accept that, it's an invitation to play. You

11:35

accept it, then you will bow your head as

11:37

low or lower. When that's

11:39

done, we agree we're going to start to

11:41

play fight. And a play fighting is like

11:43

the rat fighting. A dog won't try

11:46

to break the skin. We'll just kind of

11:48

nibble or nuzzle with his

11:50

snout. And like rat play fighting,

11:53

one will momentarily pounce

11:55

on the other, the other will roll over And

11:58

then they'll switch positions. On but

12:01

all the ways they know when they've

12:03

gone too far in one goes too

12:05

far as Iraq. As a adults I

12:07

can get pretty frisky and out of

12:09

hand. I've won accidentally bytes on he

12:12

will back off and bow again and

12:14

as as if to say oops my

12:16

bad sorry I won't do this again

12:18

and if the other one accepts that

12:20

as it were apology them and they

12:23

will continue to for them Returned to

12:25

the finest to play fighting for me

12:27

So. They're playing that. they're also kind of

12:29

building up. Relationships. With

12:31

one another and I. I think you

12:33

mentioned this in the book as well

12:35

that I'm for especially for pack animals

12:38

like wolves. Being able to play and

12:40

been able to play fight in particular

12:42

is very important to their survival. Yes,

12:45

It is on of wolves

12:47

and individual will for instance

12:49

cannot take down and elk

12:51

on it's own needs others

12:53

are thus is an individual

12:56

most is. To survive

12:58

that nice others and a

13:00

more needs to. Get

13:02

along with others to cooperate with others

13:04

Pipe. Play. Fighting. So the

13:06

place fighting or playing is necessary

13:09

for the survival of the individuals

13:11

and of course for their survival

13:13

of the pack. And

13:15

now does All play has a

13:18

survival value to it? Is all

13:20

play, behavior, and animals good for

13:22

some sort of evolutionary reason? Or

13:25

is it just fun? It

13:27

may be that fun is necessary

13:29

for some evolutionary reason, I was

13:31

if one wants to put this

13:33

in the context of evolutions, one

13:35

might ask why did natural selection

13:37

make plain fun? That is to

13:39

say, make plays desirable So. it

13:42

answer to the short answer

13:44

to that question no one

13:46

knows but it does seem

13:49

that play should have an

13:51

adapted advantage and the reason

13:53

is that it has so

13:55

many disadvantages play takes time

13:57

that an animal might better

13:59

spend doing something else, hunting

14:01

or mating or foraging, it

14:03

takes energy that an animal might

14:05

better spend doing those things and

14:08

often it can be dangerous. So

14:11

all these things would seem to

14:13

be disadvantageous. So evolutionary biologists don't

14:16

always know why all

14:18

animals are playing, but they have reason

14:20

to think that there is a

14:22

reason. You have a really

14:24

humorous anecdote in your book about these

14:26

monkeys at the Calgary Zoo were

14:29

observed swinging from tree to

14:31

tree, but then seemingly purposely

14:34

belly flopping onto the ground, which

14:36

I have to imagine would have been quite

14:38

painful. Why would they do

14:40

this? This seems like a great example

14:42

of play that has disadvantages. Well

14:45

they were observed by Sergio and

14:47

Vivian Pelas and they

14:49

were quite surprised and a bit

14:51

befuddled by what was going on. There

14:54

were three juvenile Paddus monkeys

14:56

climbing a tree and

14:59

falling from the, deliberately falling of the tree,

15:01

belly flopping on the hard ground. Ouch. And

15:04

the monkeys getting up

15:06

from the falls looked as though they were

15:08

at least momentarily in pain and yet they did

15:10

it again and again. One

15:13

possible explanation would call

15:15

it the training for the unexpected hypothesis

15:18

of play. That is to say that

15:20

play is good training

15:22

for something you're not prepared for

15:24

and good training to recover from

15:26

something, recovering from a fall. So

15:29

monkeys are going to fall from trees.

15:31

It's a given and in

15:34

fact there have been scientists

15:36

finding monkey skeletons flying

15:38

that bones are broken in the

15:40

skeletons quite often. So clearly

15:43

falling from tree is, at least for

15:45

tree climbing monkeys, is part of the

15:47

deal. But

15:50

it may be if you

15:52

are a tree climbing monkey, a Paddus monkey,

15:55

you better learn to recover because you're

15:57

going to be, sooner or later you're going to take a

15:59

fall. that's what they were doing.

16:01

So this may be certainly an extreme

16:03

case, but it could still

16:05

be explained by the training

16:07

for the unexpected hypothesis. When

16:11

you were researching for this book, what animal

16:13

play most surprised you? I think

16:15

many people expect that playful

16:18

animals are mammals, maybe birds. I

16:21

think a lot of people would not assume

16:23

that reptiles play. A lot of people

16:25

would not assume that fish play, and

16:28

yet that seems to be the case. But

16:30

of the animals that surprised me most, bees.

16:33

Bees? That's right, bees.

16:35

Oh my gosh. Just

16:37

last year, some

16:40

scientists at Queensland University in London

16:42

did an experiment that tested whether

16:45

bees could play, and they did

16:47

this with two chambers,

16:50

one empty and one

16:53

filled with bee-sized wooden balls.

16:56

On one side of these two chambers, these

16:58

adjacent chambers, were the bees. On the

17:01

other side was food source,

17:03

and the bees, it should be said, had not been

17:05

fed in a while. They were hungry. They

17:07

were allowed to choose a path through

17:09

these chambers, and some went the

17:11

director through the chamber without the wooden balls. A

17:14

lot of them went, they did not go directly

17:16

to the food. They stopped to play with the

17:18

balls, to roll the balls around. And the scientists

17:20

studying this tried to figure out

17:22

what was going on. Is this some sort of

17:25

cleaning behavior? Are they confusing the balls

17:28

with food? They went through every other

17:30

list of possibilities, and they finally came

17:32

up with, no, they are

17:35

playing. I was surprised

17:37

by that. It's a recent

17:39

discovery, and I think a lot of

17:41

scientists, a lot of animal behaviorists and

17:43

ethologists would be surprised, because I don't

17:45

think very many people expected that insects

17:47

of any kind played. Finally,

17:49

why do you think the study

17:51

of play, and specifically how and

17:53

why animals play, is so intriguing?

17:55

What can we learn from this?

17:58

I think we can learn. what

18:00

we may know already, but we can be reminded

18:02

what we may know already that animals

18:05

have in our lives, and

18:07

they may be as rich

18:09

as our own in our lives. I

18:12

think we learn that play is

18:14

more important than perhaps we give

18:16

it credit for being. It's

18:19

not too great a leap, I think, to say

18:21

that life itself is playful. Oh,

18:24

I love that. Well, the next time

18:26

I play fetch with a dog, I'm certainly going to

18:28

think a lot deeper about it. Right.

18:31

Me too. David Toomey, thank you so much for joining us. Thank

18:34

you. David

18:36

Toomey is professor of English

18:39

at the University of Massachusetts

18:41

Amherst and author of Kingdom

18:43

of Play, What Ball Bouncing

18:45

Octopuses, Belly-Flopping Monkeys, and Mud

18:47

Sliding Elephants, reveal about life

18:50

itself. Birds

18:55

do it. Bees

18:58

do it. Even

19:01

if you keep it, please

19:04

do it. Well, there's

19:06

another activity to add to the shortlist of

19:08

what birds and bees do. They

19:10

both play. Well, indeed, apparently

19:12

they do. It's still remarkable

19:14

to me that bees play. I

19:17

think we can accept that dogs play

19:20

and that wolves play because wolves are

19:22

the ancestors of dogs, maybe even rats.

19:24

But insects are a surprise addition to

19:26

the play group. And what

19:29

that says to me is that play is

19:31

not some sort of superficial

19:33

behavior. It must help them

19:35

to survive. It

19:38

must have evolved because it's beneficial to

19:40

them getting their genes into the next

19:42

generation. We've

19:53

heard that play is fundamental to an

19:56

animal's development, and that's why researchers are

19:58

worried that the trend of. Emphasizing

20:00

safety in children's play might be

20:02

depriving them of important experiences. Maybe

20:04

be forgotten. What like to be

20:07

a kid and but kids are

20:09

capable of doing. Their

20:11

as on that thirty medal of

20:13

honor I see or thing is

20:15

thirty and quotes. Yeah, I mean

20:17

as though you're right. It is

20:20

risky, but honestly I also have

20:22

a lot of fun here. Next

20:25

we go to a playground that

20:27

would be a nightmare for helicopter

20:29

parents. Find out why risk he

20:31

plays the thing on pick her

20:33

thigh. And.

20:39

Other days here and you're ready for it,

20:41

go to where participants in dinner check plenty

20:43

for what's next and as safe or it,

20:45

that's where Bank of America can help for

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your financial to do. Bank of America has

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your goals. Get started of one of our

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local financial centers or twenty four seven a

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normal for taking our final. A Pc knew

20:58

you had Bank of America to accomplish. What

21:00

would you like to do with the of

21:02

my fellow to me is only available for

21:04

selected And since this is indeed or it's

21:06

Nathan a Big As American a member of

21:08

the Se. You

21:11

know, Molly. I can't help but wonder

21:13

exactly how far down in terms of

21:15

animal complexity do we see that animals

21:17

play The man? I don't think I'm

21:19

me be play. Hate the great question.

21:21

It would be hard to test whether

21:23

or maybe play in the lab, but

21:26

I'm glad you brought up complexity because

21:28

here's something that is not complex is

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22:48

Any children run over, lose born

22:50

and collect scrap metal that they're

22:52

putting in a rusted old. We'll

22:54

be for all in this New

22:57

York playground. O L the both

22:59

is meet nostalgia for my unsupervised

23:01

adventure seeking in childhood and a

23:03

bit of anxiety in my stomach.

23:13

Honestly, these rotten old wooden boards

23:15

he's resting, metal ladders and old

23:17

stained mattress. me of the her

23:19

discarded objects that are lying around

23:21

in the dirt. ah makes us

23:24

look like an abandoned area that

23:26

should be censored off with a

23:28

keep outside. Of course that would

23:30

be catnip for kids, which is

23:32

precisely the point and moon of

23:34

the reasons these children are having

23:37

a blast. Flatly. Deal

23:39

is me says a bunch of these tools

23:41

and we just saw like the highest like

23:43

May title was. On. Will

23:46

find out just what these children

23:48

are getting up to and how

23:50

that playground as a response to

23:53

the trend of protecting children at

23:55

any cost by ensuring that playtime

23:57

is safe some have called it

23:59

brings proofing but one warning that

24:01

these efforts to eliminate risk that

24:03

by one child researcher way back

24:05

in the Nineteen sixties as an

24:07

administrator seven said a child spell

24:09

may be detrimental to children's development.

24:12

High. And Mariana Rezone. I'm a

24:14

professor at University of British Columbia

24:16

in the Faculty of Medicine and

24:19

I am and fell into psychologists

24:21

studying children's outdoor Ricky Point. You.

24:23

Know we didn't used to have a a

24:26

word for risky play. It's really a term

24:28

that emerged around two thousand and nine was

24:30

when the first term, the first game and

24:32

huge and it wouldn't We see the for

24:35

it and won't meet me. Kind of didn't

24:37

need to because play with play and risk

24:39

was a natural part of that. Mariana.

24:42

I had a lot of unsupervised

24:44

play and my childhood every weekend

24:46

and summer day seem to begin

24:48

with a bang of the screen

24:50

door after breakfast and didn't end

24:52

until the street lamps came on.

24:55

That. Seem to be the norm back

24:57

then. yeah and you know and that

24:59

that play memory has some really com

25:01

and seems to we know when you

25:04

ask people to think back to their

25:06

favorite play. Memory is often involves and

25:08

being outdoors being unsupervised, taking risks of

25:10

any kind of making things up as

25:12

you go along. So yeah so and

25:14

what'd you think you get out of

25:16

those kinds of play memories wouldn't do

25:19

for you have for you're asking me

25:21

why I'm asking you Yeah it it

25:23

it has a great question of it.

25:25

Gave. Me a sense of. Confidence.

25:27

Because I was nimble and I knew that I

25:29

could do it, that I could set my mind

25:31

on a goal and then I could executed in

25:34

this had many parts to it into the my.

25:36

Kid. Seen in a little bit of

25:38

chocolate from the kitchen and and sneaking

25:40

it back up to my room. It

25:43

was exhilarating to climb up and down

25:45

that tree and it was just fun.

25:47

I don't know how to describe fun,

25:49

but it was fostered exactly and so

25:52

what you're describing is so com and

25:54

about. these experiences right? and you can

25:56

map everything you said onto really important

25:58

aspects of children's development. Health Love

26:00

being you. Know, you talked about

26:03

being able to move your body and

26:05

game mastery over your body and understand

26:07

what it was capable of. That's that

26:09

physical development, physical literacy skills you talked

26:12

about kind of building self confidence in

26:14

a sense that are. You know I

26:16

can do this and I'm capable incompetent.

26:19

So that's really important for a mental

26:21

health and wellbeing. Yeah, you talked about

26:23

a sense of of joy and fun

26:26

at those are really fundamental in terms

26:28

of also kind of mental health and

26:30

wellbeing. So even. Just your kind of

26:32

small story in slice of what your

26:35

chosen like you can see the layer

26:37

is a benefit the came from that.

26:39

For. You what do you remember from your

26:42

childhood? Did you engage in some this risky

26:44

plate? You know I'm more. I'm a child.

26:46

I grew up in their seventies and eighties

26:48

and so very typical of the time I

26:50

was you know who leave the house. if

26:52

we stay back we would get stuck into

26:54

chores and so it was like get out

26:56

of the house as quickly as we could

26:58

to make sure that we want to start

27:00

vacuuming or something and out My brothers and

27:02

I would wander the neighborhood and we had

27:04

and. We. Had a river near by

27:07

we would cohen catch snakes and to

27:09

my mother's lack of delight bring them

27:11

back home and you know and and

27:13

kind of wander around the at will

27:15

for sure. Where you

27:17

know Mariana when you describe going to

27:19

the river and catching snakes and then

27:21

you imagine me up on a roof.

27:24

This is something that our parents might

27:26

have bland step back then, but certainly

27:28

today These have been no nose for

27:30

children I think growing up in today's

27:32

ultra safe environment can you give an

27:35

overview in what ways we have limited

27:37

such. Risky play for children. What

27:39

is the new ethos? Yeah.

27:42

Loan it's a it's a not so

27:44

new eat those cause the change as

27:46

started happening in the late eighties and

27:48

there's a lot of variety of reasons

27:50

for that. But one of the things

27:52

that we weekend a point to is

27:54

a change. In Parenting Approach. Right.

27:57

And so this sense that they really

27:59

had to cure. Their children flies to

28:01

make sure that they were in activities

28:03

that we're reaching their brains and and

28:05

so that they would get into kind

28:07

of the right schools and into the

28:10

right to our universities and so on.

28:12

And so then it it just became

28:14

playing with seen as a waste of

28:16

time. At the same time we had

28:18

as a diminishing sense of children's confidence

28:21

that they really needed adults too kind

28:23

of control their lives and tell them

28:25

what to do. And so the feeling

28:27

that being a good parent with not

28:29

only making your sure your kids' brains

28:32

were you know, kind of developing and

28:34

ninety always but also making sure that

28:36

they were all always supervised and in

28:38

controlled activities so that they were. You

28:40

know what was perceived as safe? Well,

28:43

in some way and you couldn't

28:45

you could disco force. That translated

28:47

into a change in playgrounds for

28:49

example. Now I grew up our

28:51

plane on monkey bars at pretty

28:53

questionable heights, high highs and jumping

28:55

on those playground spinners that would

28:57

go round where all the kids

28:59

would pile on and that grab

29:01

on to a bar for digital

29:04

her his because they didn't want

29:06

to go fly off onto the

29:08

gravel and those play structures seem

29:10

to have been replaced by what's

29:12

called safety playgrounds playgrounds with. Plastic

29:14

slides with soft contours and structures

29:16

that seem to limit a child's

29:18

access to great heights. Or. Speeds.

29:22

You. Could see the appeal for parents with

29:24

these playgrounds. Yeah, yeah, so the approach

29:26

you're talking about is like and. Let's.

29:28

Make kids as safe as possible,

29:31

Rather, Than as safe as necessary

29:33

which is what we're going towards

29:35

now. So as safe as possible

29:38

means let's prevent everything. And so

29:40

these the playgrounds that that develops.

29:42

You know from that thinking as

29:44

you identify they had their much

29:46

lower and height. there's surfacing underneath,

29:48

it's meant to be soft surfacing.

29:50

They're much more uniform and you

29:53

know generally they come out of

29:55

a catalogue and they all look

29:57

the same and there's a very

29:59

few at what we call boarding

30:01

for play. And and so when

30:03

we think about that you know

30:05

some of the best things that

30:08

provide high afford answer things that

30:10

you can move around or natural

30:12

materials so like sticks, rock, mud

30:14

tart crates and your case snakes,

30:16

snakes, things. Yes

30:19

so things that that kids could

30:21

move around til all imagination to

30:23

shape the plate and we're going

30:25

to talk about what's the of

30:27

antidote to this of has been

30:30

but marianne of what what if

30:32

doctors and researchers noticed about. Children.

30:35

That suggests that there was a problem and

30:37

what sort of evidence backs that up, right?

30:39

Yeah, so you know, as I mentioned at

30:41

the beginning we needed a term for what

30:44

was missing and that henson the term risky

30:46

play And that allowed us to do a

30:48

whole bunch of research around what was missing.

30:51

And you know. And that's right, I come

30:53

back. Your favorite chance to play memory. So

30:55

what we've been able to show is that

30:57

kids who are have less of these experiences

31:00

are impacted in terms of the the other

31:02

aspects of their health and development. So. We

31:04

we do see really robust findings

31:07

around, you know, kids being less

31:09

physically active and moving their bodies

31:11

last, and you know, being more

31:14

sedentary, being more interested in engaging

31:16

with friends you know, online through

31:18

screen because that's more thrilling an

31:20

exciting than what they're actually seeing

31:23

outdoors of. And we have this

31:25

really interesting research around mental health

31:27

impacts of this, for example research

31:30

showing that is that teens and

31:32

young adults. Who. Have had

31:34

overprotective parents are more likely to

31:36

be anxious and depressed. There's a

31:38

challenge with self confidence and feeling

31:40

that they can manage things you

31:42

know at can have a sense

31:44

of that. The world and the

31:46

uncertainties are too hard to handle

31:48

and so they tend to pull

31:50

away from them rather than leaning

31:52

in and on and on and

31:54

on. The researchers. Building and building

31:56

and building around what kids are

31:58

missing if they're missing kind of

32:00

play. Well,

32:04

one of the responses to the culture

32:06

of caution has been the construction of

32:08

adventure playground like this one here on.

32:10

Governors Island in New York cause.

32:12

The Yard. It has risk

32:14

built into every rickety structure,

32:17

rotting board, and rustin bit

32:19

of medals. There are no

32:21

soft molded plastic slides or

32:24

soft surfaces to cushion you

32:26

if you fall. It's basically

32:29

a junkyard. Kids are loud

32:31

inside. The

32:34

parents are not. There is

32:36

one rule. close toed shoes

32:38

are required. otherwise the children

32:40

make. Up the rules. The

32:45

child just. Hitting a. Board.

32:48

With a stick. Really

32:51

hurt. Either

32:54

a rotten old boards. A. Whole pile

32:56

of them here. And talk about splinter

32:58

city. Old ladders,

33:00

some of them are arrested. of

33:02

the metal ones arrested the wouldn't

33:05

ones look pretty rickety and look

33:07

for one Charles here is found

33:09

a piano. Old piano. When

33:12

Charles has gone by in a scooter, their looks

33:14

like a scooter from about fifty years ago. And

33:19

venture playgrounds really grew out of

33:21

of post World War Europe right

33:23

for you. Had all of these

33:25

can a bombed out building sites

33:27

within cities like London and others

33:29

and the kids started playing in

33:31

them. And so there was a

33:33

realization At the time Lady Eleanor

33:35

Part Would was one of the

33:37

people that really are supported this

33:39

in terms of recognizing the incredible

33:41

play opportunities. That they offered particularly

33:44

for kids who would just come

33:46

through a war and just needed

33:48

the the psychological, the soothing aspect

33:51

of play and how important players

33:53

for being able to manage. You

33:55

know trauma in those. Emotions

33:58

and so on. But. One would have. imagine

34:00

that these makeshift playgrounds would

34:02

have broken glass in them

34:04

and bricks and just sounds

34:06

like they would be actually quite dangerous places

34:08

for children. Yeah, absolutely. And

34:11

you should see some of the

34:13

pictures coming out of them. They

34:15

would be hair raising to today's parents. But

34:19

it started a whole lineage

34:21

of the idea of adventure

34:23

playgrounds where you dedicated space

34:25

in neighborhoods for what were

34:27

essentially junkyards where kids could

34:30

hang out. And

34:33

we have over here a huge

34:35

bit of corrugated plastic drain pipe,

34:37

big enough for an adult to

34:39

crawl through and of course a

34:41

child with no problem. Hi,

34:44

are you Jake? Yes, you are. Nice to

34:46

meet you, Jake. Yeah, nice to meet you. How old are

34:48

you, Jake? I am 11. What's

34:51

your favorite thing to do here at the yard? Talk

34:53

and play with my friends. And I

34:56

love to explore because every time I come

34:58

there's always something new. Can you

35:00

just give me a little tour here and just tell me what you

35:02

see? All around the yard there

35:04

are a bunch of wood piles. There's

35:07

a mud pit. Mud pit. Are

35:09

you worried about getting splinters there in that wood pile? Not

35:12

really, I've never thought about that. We

35:15

have the sky fort which is

35:17

probably the tallest structure here.

35:19

The sky fort. Yeah. Probably

35:22

right here there would be a mattress

35:24

and then up on that platform, you would stand

35:27

on that platform and then you would jump down

35:29

onto the mattress. So you're telling me that you

35:31

jumped from up there? I'm pretty sure it's 10

35:33

feet. I have never

35:35

done it. That

35:37

place is my limit. I'm

35:40

Yoni Kalay, the interim director and

35:42

one of the co-founders of Playground

35:44

NYC. Well, Yoni, you're one

35:47

of the few adults that is allowed to

35:49

go into the yard. It's a privileged position

35:51

as I understand the parents aren't allowed in

35:53

here. That's right. We

35:55

keep the parents out of the playground because

35:58

we find that they... try

36:00

to control too much and not

36:03

let them even get a little

36:05

bit of mud on their shoes

36:07

or their clothing. All sorts

36:09

of things that they try to stop. This

36:14

is going to be a very shady house.

36:17

It's going to be a shady house? Yeah. You're

36:20

hammering real nails, real nails into a board?

36:23

Yeah. There's one. There's a nail.

36:26

Yep, that is a nail. Where did you find that? Was that

36:28

on the ground? Oh no. There's

36:30

a bunch of them over here. The

36:34

kids, just like you see the risk,

36:36

the danger, they see it just

36:39

as much as you do. And they don't want

36:41

to get hurt. Nobody wants to get hurt. To

36:43

get up, there's a

36:46

sturdy metal ladder right here. Okay, I think

36:49

it's sturdy in quotes. Yep. I

36:51

mean, it doesn't look sturdy, but up

36:54

top, like, I have tried to test it to see

36:57

if it'll fall down. This

36:59

will fall down. I mean, it's been here for a

37:01

long time, but down here it's not really connected to

37:04

anything because, you know, there's like dirt on the ground.

37:06

But up there, it's tied. And

37:09

I don't know, it kind of feels like it's welded in,

37:11

but I don't think it is. So

37:14

to be clear, Marianne, while

37:16

adventure playgrounds have been around

37:19

for a long time, this

37:21

is a recent intentional step

37:23

to build these playgrounds, especially in

37:26

urban areas, so that children can

37:28

engage in risky, unsupervised play. This

37:30

is a trend. Well,

37:33

it was a trend before, and it was in

37:35

the 80s that they started shutting them down. And

37:38

they're only now kind of

37:40

coming back into fashion as we're

37:42

realizing how important they are. What

37:46

strikes me is that as soon as they

37:48

walked into the yard, we came over on

37:50

the ferry with them, they just scattered and

37:52

then just got into it, right? They

37:54

grabbed something, they grabbed a wheelbarrow, they

37:57

grabbed a tire or something or a

37:59

stick. And they just started to play right away.

38:02

Yeah, kids are the experts of play.

38:05

And we as play workers are just trying

38:07

to support their play. She's

38:11

splashing water all over herself from this

38:13

bucket. Does

38:16

that feel good? Yeah it does. Hug?

38:20

Oh, hug? Yeah, I'll hug you. Thank

38:23

you for that wet hug. Oh

38:28

my goodness, this is so fun.

38:33

Well, among the groups that

38:35

are recommending that we bring

38:37

risky play back is the

38:39

Canadian Pediatric Society, that

38:42

is Canada's National Association of

38:44

Pediatricians. They recently released a

38:46

statement on the importance of risky play

38:48

for children. And how

38:50

does that translate into practical recommendations?

38:52

What are they suggesting that parents

38:54

do? Yeah, I mean it's super

38:57

exciting that the Canadian Pediatric Society

38:59

has come out with this statement.

39:01

It's a very powerful statement to

39:03

make. Essentially what they've said

39:05

is that they've urged their pediatrician

39:07

members to add risky play to

39:09

their clinical toolbox as

39:12

a way of managing some of the

39:15

major issues that they're seeing in their

39:17

offices today. Things like

39:19

obesity, anxiety, and

39:21

behavioral problems. You're

39:26

testing out your strength? Whoa. What

39:29

is that? A giant

39:31

ball. It's that. This

39:34

is a recorder. I don't think that's a ball. I

39:36

think that's like an old oil drum. I

39:41

think I saw as one of

39:43

the rules for this new era

39:45

of risky play is bruising is

39:47

okay but not bleeding. People

39:51

have different tolerance for their risk level.

39:54

We actually did a study, some colleagues

39:56

of mine, around what do we consider

39:58

as a serious injury. They

40:00

pulled surgeons and medical

40:03

professionals from across different aspects

40:05

of the medicine to see

40:07

what do they consider a serious injury. So

40:09

things like broken arms and legs and

40:11

even like stitches and all that

40:13

were not considered serious injuries because

40:15

it's like those can be fixed,

40:18

you know, and then and the kids will recuperate

40:20

from those and to as

40:22

I said before to take in a safe

40:24

as possible approach where you're trying to eliminate

40:26

all of that stuff. You need

40:28

to think about the cost involved

40:30

in not allowing kids to do

40:33

these things, right? Like it,

40:35

you know, one example is that

40:37

the monkey bars and playgrounds, they're

40:39

where most of the broken arms

40:41

and things happen. So is the

40:43

solution to get rid of monkey bars? Okay,

40:46

well, where are kids supposed to build their

40:48

upper body strength? Where are they supposed

40:50

to get that kind of swinging sensation

40:52

that's so beneficial to all aspects

40:54

of kind of their joy and

40:57

fun, right? So like we

40:59

need to balance, right? And

41:01

that's where we're really going for in

41:03

a safe as necessary approach where we're

41:05

trying to control the most serious

41:07

hazards and those that could lead to

41:10

really serious injury and death but leave

41:12

the risks intact so kids can make

41:14

a decision for themselves. Okay,

41:18

so let's say that you were climbing one

41:20

of these ladders and it feels kind of

41:22

shaky or you know, you're starting to lose

41:25

your balance on something. What

41:27

do you do next? Like how

41:29

do you manage those kinds of risks

41:31

because there are no adults, you know,

41:33

your parents aren't here. Yeah,

41:35

so that is something that is different

41:37

about the junkyard is there aren't

41:40

really grown so loud. And

41:42

honestly, I'd say I'm all

41:44

louder and it starts to feel

41:46

like it starts to feel shaky like

41:48

that ladder, like the ladder you have to sky

41:50

floor. What I would do is

41:52

if I was like I

41:55

would check of which half I am if

41:58

I'm closer to the top of the. I

42:00

would just keep going a little faster. But if I

42:03

was closer to the bottom, then I would go

42:05

down. One

42:08

downside of an adventure playground like this is

42:10

that it does require a lot of space.

42:13

This is much bigger than, say, the playground

42:15

you'd find at a park or play structure.

42:18

You would need more staff to maintain this.

42:21

And there is a chance that kids will get

42:23

hurt. So there are a few downsides to this

42:25

kind of a playground. I want to

42:28

first address the part of getting hurt.

42:30

Kids get hurt on normal playgrounds all

42:32

the time. When you're

42:34

a, let's say, nine-year-old who's been

42:37

to your neighborhood playground for years,

42:40

it's always the same. You've done

42:42

it a million times. It's not interesting anymore. You

42:45

start using it in ways that the equipment has not

42:47

been intended to be used. And

42:49

nobody's supervising. And

42:51

now you're jumping onto a rubberized

42:53

surface, which you think absorbs the

42:55

shock. But when you're jumping from

42:57

12 feet, 15 feet,

43:00

it's not going to do anything for you.

43:03

So our rate of

43:05

injury is not anything more than

43:07

regular playgrounds. There's a study that

43:09

was done at the

43:11

adventure playground in Houston, where they have

43:14

a normal playground and an adventure playground

43:16

on the school. And

43:18

the rate of injury at the normal playground

43:20

was actually higher. And

43:23

as far as staff, yes. I

43:26

think that it's better to pay

43:28

people and not spend millions of

43:31

dollars on play equipment when we

43:34

repurpose all the materials instead

43:36

of it going into the waste stream. Kids

43:39

love to play with it. It's every time different.

43:42

They get to change things. So

43:44

nobody feels precious about it. If it

43:46

gets broken, it's fine. I'm

43:48

just going to relax. You're

43:51

going to relax now? Uh-huh. How much hammering do you think

43:53

you did? I did

43:55

two nails. You did two nails. I think that

43:58

a long time today. Like

44:02

long then you have the

44:04

hammers other. For

44:06

references, about four inches? Yeah. But

44:10

what we see in the researchers. That kids

44:12

are. You know they're They're hanging out

44:15

with each other. They're figuring out how

44:17

to do things. There's not an adult

44:19

telling them what to do. things are

44:22

going wrong and they're managing. Yet, things

44:24

are going right and they're building self

44:26

confidence around that. And

44:30

hetty, they still the new. You're.

44:33

Building. Said that's very smart because today

44:35

is a very sunny day as it's

44:38

was to get up to eighty degrees.

44:42

And walking with the children back to

44:44

the ferry to go back into Manhattan.

44:46

They've all had a great time. Many

44:48

of them are soaked wet because they

44:50

figured out how to open up a

44:53

hydrant. A fire hydrant there at the

44:55

end. It feels pretty

44:57

good how. Did

45:02

you guys have been today? We did.

45:06

Anything. and it ended. Yet. The

45:28

joys of you Thanks Summary: On

45:30

a Brew Sony a developmental psychologist

45:32

and professor at the University of

45:34

British Columbia in the Faculty of

45:36

Medicine. Thanks. Also to Yoni

45:38

collide the interim director and one of

45:41

the cofounders of Playground and My See

45:43

for allowing access to the playground and

45:45

to Jake's parents for granting us permission

45:47

to talk with him, and to Jake

45:50

for providing a fantastic tour of the

45:52

yard. next the evolutionary benefits of

45:54

play for humans and how to

45:56

address would some say adults are

45:59

suffering from a surfeit

46:01

of somberness. We all

46:03

are playful inside. We just have to

46:05

let it out a little bit. That's

46:08

because the play is the thing on big

46:11

picture science. When

46:14

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46:52

Well, those kids were having a blast at the

46:54

playground. And I might add, so were the adults

46:57

who were there that day. But

46:59

frequently it's more the case that adults grow

47:01

out of the urge to play, sadly, just

47:03

like some animals, as we heard earlier in

47:05

the show. And some researchers

47:07

lament the loss of play as we get

47:10

older. I'm Peter Gray.

47:12

I'm a research professor of

47:14

psychology and neuroscience at Boston

47:17

College. I am

47:19

very interested in the role of

47:21

play in human evolution, as well

47:23

as in the role of play

47:25

in human development. Dr. Gray

47:27

joins other researchers who say our

47:29

lack of lightheartedness and the dearth

47:32

of downtime amounts to a public

47:34

health crisis. But no

47:36

worries. He has tips for how to

47:38

recapture your inner child. It

47:41

is a health crisis, I believe, for

47:43

adults, although my case has

47:45

always been about how it's a health

47:47

crisis for children. Adults

47:50

play as valuable. Children, it's

47:52

a necessity. And

47:54

we take play away from children, and

47:56

they're obviously suffering. Now given

47:59

that... I will

48:01

turn to adults. We are,

48:03

first of all, we are

48:05

a very sedentary society largely.

48:08

And so one of the

48:10

health problems is that we're indoors all

48:12

the time. And

48:14

we're doing sedentary things with our

48:17

work. And because we're doing sedentary

48:19

things with our work, we're not

48:21

getting physical exercise, we're not breathing

48:23

the fresh air outdoors, which is

48:25

all very healthy. It makes me

48:28

wonder if workplaces should factor in

48:30

time for recess, like the way

48:32

we had it in school. Right.

48:34

Certainly so, I think. And at

48:37

least for lunch hour, I mean, which has been

48:39

taken away from a lot of, you know, I

48:41

hear from people in the workplace who where

48:44

they're expected to be eat their lunch while

48:46

they're still on their computers doing their work,

48:48

you know, they're used to be,

48:50

you'd have an hour, which is kind of play,

48:52

you'd go out to lunch with your friends and

48:54

colleagues, you'd talk about things,

48:57

you'd socialize, you'd make fun of the

48:59

boss, you'd do all these things, and

49:01

you come back more productive. It's a

49:03

huge mistake to think that people are

49:06

more productive if we keep them at

49:08

the wheel all the time. That's

49:12

a mistake we've made in school, taking recess

49:14

away, taking lunch period away, we think they're

49:16

going to learn more because of it, they're not learning more because of

49:18

it, they were just burning them out. And

49:20

the same thing in the workplace with adults.

49:22

I was once asked to give a

49:24

talk to a group

49:27

of elderly people about the value

49:29

of exercise, actually, was the topic.

49:31

And I said, I titled

49:33

the talk, Don't Work Out, Play

49:35

Out. Any kind of

49:38

physical activity that is really fun, that

49:40

is play for you because it's fun, because

49:42

it's something you are doing, because you enjoy

49:44

it, is going to keep you physically fit.

49:46

But I wonder, Peter, then,

49:48

does all play include vigorous

49:50

exercise outdoors? I mean, what

49:53

about playing cards? Hard

49:55

to get your heart rate up playing cards, but I guess

49:57

if you have a really good hand, maybe. So let me

49:59

know. Let me tell you another thing. There

50:01

is a lot of research actually that shows

50:04

that playing video games is a

50:06

great thing as you get older. That

50:08

it forestalls, there is actually research,

50:10

it forestalls the memory loss,

50:13

it forestalls there is

50:15

evidence that it is a good protection

50:17

against all timers. That

50:20

video games are

50:22

extraordinary mental play,

50:25

mental exercise. They

50:27

exercise the very kinds of abilities that

50:29

we tend to lose in older age.

50:31

Now that would be true for other

50:33

kinds of games too. It is true

50:35

for all kinds of games that involve

50:37

thinking, that involve planning, that

50:40

involve memory

50:42

and tension. People

50:44

who play cards. My

50:47

parents generation, every time people got together

50:49

they would play Kanasta which is a

50:51

game that involves a certain

50:53

amount of luck but there is also a

50:56

certain amount of skill and thinking and there

50:58

is a social part of it that is

51:00

involved. One other definitional question is do you

51:02

distinguish between leisure time activities

51:04

and play? So reading

51:07

a book or watching a movie,

51:09

that can be very relaxing for people. I don't

51:12

know if we would call that play. Practicing

51:15

the piano which also requires

51:17

some discipline. It is literally playing

51:19

the piano but is that considered

51:22

play? We lose

51:24

track of this as adults. How do

51:26

we know what is play and when

51:29

we are engaging in it? I am glad

51:31

you asked that because I think play like a

51:33

lot of words has a lot of

51:35

different meanings in the English language. My

51:38

definition of play is that play

51:41

is an activity that has these

51:43

four characteristics. The first characteristic

51:45

and maybe the most important one

51:48

is it is self chosen and

51:50

self directed. It is something that

51:52

the player or players themselves have

51:54

decided to do and they have

51:57

decided how to do it. they're

52:00

mostly making up the rules. But they're

52:03

and when groups are playing, they have to negotiate

52:05

how they're going to play. So

52:07

that's the first part of the

52:09

death. The second characteristic of play

52:11

is it's intrinsically motivating. You are

52:13

doing it for its own

52:15

sake. You're not doing it for some

52:17

reward outside of itself. You're not doing

52:19

it for money. You're not doing it

52:21

for gold stars, for an A on

52:23

a report card. You're not doing it

52:25

to improve your resume. You're

52:27

doing it really because you want to do

52:29

it. Now that doesn't mean it couldn't have valuable

52:31

other effects, but to the degree that you're doing

52:33

it for those outside things instead of

52:36

because you want to do it, to

52:38

that degree it's not play. So

52:42

just to make a point about

52:44

this aspect of it, if you have

52:46

a job that you think, I would do

52:48

this even if I didn't need the money, it's

52:51

quite legitimate to say that job is play.

52:53

So I want to make it clear because

52:56

this is part of adult play. Adult play

52:58

and work are not necessarily incompatible.

53:01

So the third characteristic of play is

53:04

that play is always structured. Play

53:06

is never random activity. Play

53:09

is organized activity where you

53:11

and your playmates are organizing

53:13

it yourself or you're following

53:16

a pre-planned organization that you

53:18

have chosen to follow. And

53:20

the fourth characteristic of play, and this

53:23

is a valuable characteristic for adults as

53:25

well as children, is that

53:27

play is always creative. Children's

53:30

play is almost always imaginative. Much of

53:32

adults play it as imaginative, but it's

53:34

always creative. So although the activity is

53:36

a structured activity, there's a

53:39

lot of room always for

53:41

creativity. So play exercises your

53:44

creativity. As you describe that, I

53:46

wonder if cooking is a kind of

53:48

play. I know people and I can

53:50

get in the mood for cooking certain

53:52

things that is great fun and it

53:54

feels creative. Now it's very structured unless

53:57

you don't care what goes into that cake. But

54:00

it does feel both like

54:02

play, like back to the

54:04

sandbox or something like that because you are sifting

54:07

through the same kind of material if you're baking,

54:09

and leisure. You

54:12

know, it doesn't feel like work always. So

54:15

I think the point here is

54:17

that play is never defined by

54:19

what kind of activity it is.

54:22

It could be cooking, it could be pounding nails, it could

54:24

be anything. It's defined by the

54:26

attitude that you have about it. So

54:29

for some people, cooking is anything but

54:31

play. For other people, it

54:34

is definitely play. And for the same

54:36

person, it might be play one day

54:39

and definitely not play another day.

54:41

So play doesn't have to do

54:43

with the kind of activity. It

54:45

has to do with the attitude

54:47

and the motivation that underlies that

54:49

activity. Well, let's look

54:51

at the big picture and the

54:53

evolutionary origins of play and where

54:55

the impulse arises in the brain

54:57

because it's my understanding that scientists

54:59

have discovered that the drive to

55:01

play originates in the brain stem,

55:03

which in evolutionary terms is one

55:05

of the oldest parts of the

55:07

nervous system, which suggests that

55:10

play has been around for a long

55:12

time and maybe has survival value. Play

55:14

has definitely been around for a long

55:16

time and without question has survival value.

55:19

How long it's been around is

55:22

debatable. So yes, play has been around for

55:24

a long time. The primary

55:27

function, and this

55:29

is why play is especially important

55:31

for children and for juvenile animals,

55:33

is to practice the skills that

55:35

are required to grow into adulthood.

55:39

So animals of all species

55:41

play at the activities that

55:44

are really important for them to develop. And

55:46

I've made the case this is definitely true

55:48

for human beings too. And especially when I

55:50

look at hunter-gatherer cultures and how the children

55:52

play. Could you just give an example

55:54

there, please? So let me give an example for

55:56

humans. So one thing people

55:58

have to learn everywhere is... how to use human

56:01

language. Children play at language. They

56:03

learn language in play. They don't learn language

56:05

by being taught it. They learn it in

56:07

play and I've documented that. One

56:09

other thing is it's really important is to

56:11

learn how to get along with other people.

56:14

This is extraordinarily important. We are a social

56:16

species. Children learn how to get along with

56:18

other children by playing with them. They learn how

56:20

to compromise, how to negotiate, how

56:22

to accept being teased a little

56:24

bit, all of these social skills,

56:27

how to make friends. These are

56:29

very general things but even beyond

56:31

that, when you look at any

56:33

given culture, what you find

56:35

is that the children, they play in ways

56:37

that promote all of these things I just

56:39

described, but the specific

56:41

activities they choose are

56:43

very often activities that are really important

56:46

to their culture. When I looked at

56:48

hunter-gatherer cultures, the kids play with digging

56:51

sticks, with bows and arrows. They

56:53

play at hunting. They play at

56:55

tracking game. They play with dugout

56:57

canoes. When we look at farming

56:59

cultures, kids play with farming instruments.

57:02

What do kids play with today? They play with

57:04

computers without question the most

57:06

important tool of our culture today.

57:08

So of course they are

57:10

drawn to computers. So kids not only

57:12

play in these ways that promote the

57:14

things that you have to learn everywhere,

57:16

but they also play at the specific

57:19

things that they can see are

57:21

important to the culture that they're growing up in.

57:23

That is fascinating. So the

57:25

play reflects the values of

57:27

the culture or of the

57:30

society. Let me tell you another

57:32

evolutionary function of play, promote

57:34

cooperation. So

57:37

what's interesting about hunter-gatherer

57:39

cultures is that they

57:41

absolutely depend in a way

57:43

that's much more immediate even

57:45

than for our culture on cooperation

57:47

and sharing. They can't

57:50

survive without sharing all the

57:52

time. So when you

57:54

are in a situation where you need to

57:56

share and you need to cooperate, you

57:59

need to be in a- situation where you really

58:01

trust one another. And I'm

58:03

convinced that the reason we see

58:06

such high levels of playfulness and

58:08

play of all sorts among adult

58:11

hunter-gatherers as well as children

58:13

is because they have developed

58:15

over time, they have learned

58:17

if you will, that by

58:19

playing, by having a playful

58:22

attitude, we keep a good

58:24

attitude towards one another. We

58:27

all are playful inside. We just

58:29

have to let it out a little

58:31

bit. Peter Gray, thank you

58:33

so much for encouraging us all to

58:35

be a little bit more playful. Thank

58:38

you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Peter

58:41

Gray is a research professor of

58:43

psychology and neuroscience at Boston College.

58:46

Well Seth, that brings us to the big picture

58:49

perspective in the show and what are some takeaways

58:51

from you on the subject of play? Well

58:53

I guess it's just my opinion that

58:55

any behavior that we indulge

58:57

in, you know, as kids has,

59:01

you know, developed because of the evolutionary pressures

59:03

to do so. In other words, it has

59:05

survival value to play, okay, and I think

59:07

we've seen that over and over again in

59:09

this show. And it's

59:12

also fun, but that's part of the attraction.

59:14

It's part of why we do it. It's

59:16

fun. Ask kids why they play and that's

59:18

what they'll tell you. They won't say, well

59:20

it helps me to develop skills and behaviors

59:22

that will be useful for me

59:24

when I'm an adult. Indeed, I think

59:26

David Toomey was the one who said if

59:28

we weren't meant to play, then why did

59:30

natural selection make play so much fun? Well

59:48

this show would not be possible

59:50

without the creative and playful work

59:52

attitudes of senior producer Gary Niederhoff

59:54

and assistant producers Brian Edwards and

59:56

Shannon Rose Geary. I am the

59:59

executive producer of Big Picture Science, Molly

1:00:01

Bentley. Big Picture Science

1:00:03

is produced at the SETI Institute,

1:00:05

a nonprofit education and research organization

1:00:07

that studies life and all its

1:00:09

complexity. I'm the Institute's senior astronomer,

1:00:12

Seth Shostak. Also a big thanks

1:00:14

to our listeners and our Patreon

1:00:16

supporters. The original music in the

1:00:18

show is by Dewey DeLay and June Miyake,

1:00:21

and there's one more thing. This

1:00:23

episode of Big Picture Science

1:00:26

that looks at the science of

1:00:29

why humans and other animals like

1:00:31

to do things like run, jump,

1:00:33

climb, and bounce balls is called

1:00:36

the play is the thing. Perfect.

1:00:39

Bravo. Yeah, thank you.

1:00:47

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