0:00

This is the BiggerPockets Podcast

0:02

Show 776. I

0:05

think it's important to say, when you buy a high

0:07

school, the very first thing that you need to

0:09

do is go buy some go-karts and a mini

0:11

bike and rip around the school on

0:13

the go-karts and mini bikes with your friends. Perhaps the

0:15

best advice ever given on BiggerPockets.

0:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If there's anything you take away from the

0:20

day, it's that. What's going

0:22

on, everyone? This is David Green, your host of the

0:24

BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast here today

0:27

with Rob Ilt, Rob Abasolo, my

0:29

co-host,

0:29

and a very cool

0:32

episode for you. Today, Rob and I

0:34

interview Jesse Wigg, an investor

0:36

in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area who's

0:38

also a real estate broker and

0:41

salesperson who does a lot of different things in

0:43

real estate and has put together one of the most unique

0:45

deals I've ever heard of, which

0:48

I'm sure Rob must have had you pretty gassed

0:50

up. You like a good unique deal.

0:52

Tell me what you liked about today's show. Well, first of all, I agree

0:54

that it was a very cool show, and when you said

0:57

that, I thought you were gonna say, Rob, joining

0:59

me here in a cool shirt,

0:59

because I am rocking,

1:02

I think, a shirt that I could

1:04

see you wearing yourself. What do you think?

1:07

You know, I don't know if, in

1:09

my personal evolutionary

1:11

journey, I'm at the point where I could wear a John Mayer

1:14

shirt. Oh, it's his whole body, too, even worse.

1:16

I thought it was just his head and a guitar.

1:18

This is the equivalent of what a 13-year-old girl

1:21

would have put on her bedroom wall of Leonardo

1:24

DiCaprio or Jonathan Taylor

1:26

Thomas, and you're wearing it on your

1:28

person on purpose. That's right.

1:31

Well, you know, for me, I'm a Mayer

1:33

head, if you will. And speaking of

1:35

being a Mayer head, today we're

1:37

talking, actually, to the unofficial Mayor

1:40

of Munhall. Yes, we are. That is Jesse's

1:43

nickname, and if you have

1:45

been trying to figure out ways to creatively

1:47

find deals in today's market, you've stumbled

1:50

across the perfect podcast.

1:52

This is a guest that has a strategy that I have never

1:55

heard of that absolutely crushed it. Robb's

1:57

Jaws and I were collectively hanging on

1:59

the. floor as we were listening. And if that's

2:02

not enough, he also gets into a strategy

2:04

he uses to raise the comps on all

2:06

of the properties he owns in the same

2:09

neighborhood while giving practical advice

2:11

for what you can do to sell your homes for more when

2:13

you're flipping all that and more in

2:15

an awesome show we have for you today. But before

2:17

we bring in Jesse, today's quick

2:20

tip is simple. Consider the

2:22

ways real estate makes you money that you

2:24

may be taking for granted or unaware of. Today's

2:27

guest, Jesse has found several ways to create

2:29

wealth that you may have never even considered. And

2:31

this could open your eyes to possibilities that were right

2:33

in front of you the whole time and you never even seen

2:36

them, just like the love interest in a romantic

2:38

comedy. Rob, anything you want to add? Just

2:41

quick tip number two,

2:42

buy the shirt at the concert.

2:45

If you've been skipping out on t-shirts, I know

2:47

they're 50 bucks. And if you've gone

2:49

to concerts for 10 years with the same artist, just buy

2:51

it. You only live once, David, as the

2:53

millennials would say,

2:55

YOLO. Yeah. So if you're feeling really bad about

2:57

how your real estate investing journey can turn out, just look

2:59

at Rob wearing the shirt. You will immediately feel better

3:01

about yourself. This is actually the feel good episode

3:04

of the year. Without further ado, let's

3:06

bring in Jesse.

3:07

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5:59

PETA by saying, yeah, I'm going to stop

6:02

calling myself a dad because of animals. But he

6:04

also doesn't want to offend all of the human race.

6:06

Who's like, why do we call people dads because

6:08

they have dogs? And that was not

6:10

fair of me to start this thing off, but I've always

6:13

wondered, like, it's a trend right now

6:15

to say that you're a dad or a mom of

6:17

animals. Everybody's doing it. And

6:19

I'm like, but I don't know anyone with kids that does that. So

6:21

I always wondered, so I'd be like, I, I, I have three

6:23

kids now. I want, yeah, no one does

6:26

that. That's what I mean. I'm a human baby.

6:28

No one says I'm a dog mom

6:29

anymore. They're like, I'm a,

6:32

now you're a real mom, right? I just said real mom.

6:34

I might've just offended PETA there. If you're listening to this

6:37

podcast and you're an animal parent, please

6:39

don't complain. We love you. Uh,

6:41

but yes, this is a tricky thing. So I'm curious, Jesse,

6:43

how that's going to work out. You have to let me know once the baby

6:46

comes. Oh, of course, of course. Yeah. I

6:48

made notes and I'm curious about your real estate journey. Oh

6:51

yeah. I suppose we could talk

6:53

about that. I guess you guys

6:55

want to be boring. So

6:57

today we're going to dive into an unusual but highly

7:00

lucrative deal that you were a part of a

7:02

couple

7:02

of rapid fire questions to give us the quick

7:04

stats on that before we get into your story. First

7:06

off, what kind of property is this? Sure.

7:09

You're talking about the school. Yeah. It's

7:12

a 55, 55,000 square foot Catholic high school

7:15

that myself and my partners purchased. Officially

7:17

the first person that I've ever interviewed or even met

7:19

that turned a school into housing. This

7:22

is super cool. What did you pay for this property?

7:26

$100,000 for an entire school. Yep.

7:31

Yep. Okay. We're going

7:33

to have to figure out this thing. What's the cashflow right now?

7:37

Let me say this. We

7:39

probably generate close to 41, 42,000 a month

7:41

gross income from the building. Wow.

7:46

I'm going to say that. Yeah. Are

7:48

we going to get the details later? Are you going to tell us what the net profit

7:50

is? We're probably around the ballpark

7:52

of netting low

7:53

20s a month. Yeah.

7:57

I already knew I was going to be mad. Like you said, you bought at school.

8:00

I was like, oh, I already want that. And then you're like, we bought

8:02

it for 100K. And I'm like, you know, to

8:04

squeak out a decent return, we're

8:06

talking like 20K profit a year

8:09

and you are effectively, yeah, you're getting

8:11

that a month. So

8:13

I'm mad. You've made Rob mad. Congratulations.

8:16

Well, listen, if it makes you feel better, I'm actually only,

8:18

I bought it and I was a sole owner and then

8:20

I'm currently only the minority

8:22

owner. Okay. So, you know,

8:25

that's not all going to me. Okay, okay. That's

8:27

fine, I'm less mad. Yeah, that probably just means that you made a

8:29

bunch of money selling ownership of the property.

8:31

So it's not cashflow, but it's even better. I

8:34

feel like I had a really good deal. Cool. I

8:36

feel like I had a really good deal. Well, you officially turned my partner,

8:38

Robilt, into Robummed and I'm

8:40

curious to hear how you did that. Now,

8:43

before we

8:43

get into it, let's hear about how you got into

8:45

real estate. What were you doing before real

8:48

estate? Yeah, so I

8:50

was working at a juvenile delinquent dependent

8:52

group home,

8:53

pretty toxic environment.

8:56

I was ready to get out of it. I knew an individual

8:58

that was in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania that was flipping

9:00

homes. So I moved two hours south from

9:02

Erie, Pennsylvania and started

9:04

working as like

9:07

a labor punchless guy on

9:09

this house that individual

9:11

was flipping

9:12

at 10 bucks an hour. And I have a really interesting

9:15

story about being there, if I can share

9:17

that with you. Yeah, let's hear that. So at

9:19

one point, this is part of my story, I've told it many

9:21

times, but at one point when I was

9:24

working on this home, I was laying on my chest

9:27

for a week straight on a pillow with a dental

9:29

tool, carving out grout

9:31

lines that the agent had found,

9:34

three or four layers down in the kitchen. They

9:36

wanted to keep this tile, so it was one inch by one

9:38

inch tile. And so for a week straight,

9:41

I'm carving out the grout lines because

9:43

they're so black and filled with

9:45

different dirt and such. So like we

9:48

asked and cleaned in a couple of their options, just didn't work very

9:50

well. So just like scraping out these grout lines

9:52

for a week at 10 bucks an hour. I

9:55

gotta tell you, like

9:56

at one point laying on my chest

9:59

cold, cause the time... I was so cold, okay? I

10:01

was like, I think I made a mistake.

10:04

So yeah,

10:05

that was the beginning. Did it make you wanna go back to

10:08

the previous job or no? At

10:11

times, because the previous job, I

10:13

became an assistant supervisor and had the ability

10:15

to sleep in the unit and

10:18

get time and a half. You just needed a staff

10:20

on site. So there were some perks about

10:22

that job, but ultimately I decided no, I'm

10:24

gonna stay in real estate and ready to make some moves.

10:26

This sounds like the beginning of a

10:28

Disney movie where

10:31

you're working for free in an orphanage

10:33

situation. And they're like, okay,

10:35

now get on your hands and knees and peel

10:38

potatoes all day long. And you're like, similar.

10:40

Languishing away, crawling on your

10:42

belly on tile, scraping it with

10:45

a iron toothbrush, like

10:48

wondering, like someday my prince will come.

10:50

But you didn't wait for your prince. You went out and made it

10:52

happen. So this is a pretty cool way to start

10:55

the hero's journey. What did you do

10:57

on your first deal as an investor? How did you get out

10:59

of tile cleaner into real estate owner? For

11:02

sure, yeah. So that didn't go very well either.

11:04

However, the individual I was working for, I

11:06

said, hey, I was about six months in,

11:08

just construction, punchless

11:10

labor stuff for this guy. And I said, hey, I wanna flip a house,

11:13

what do I do? He's like, find some private money, find

11:15

a house that needs work, handful of different things.

11:17

I started working with the real estate agent

11:19

up in Erie PA.

11:21

That agent is now

11:23

my wife, so I married my realtor. Wow.

11:26

Yeah, interesting story there. But

11:28

so the first house I purchased,

11:31

skipping a lot of details, I

11:34

probably overpaid, I under budgeted. I

11:36

didn't know what I was doing. I didn't calculate

11:39

for property tax, for interest payments,

11:41

for heating bills, just like

11:44

lack of experience, just young and

11:46

ready to make moves, right? My

11:48

buddy and I flipped the house, did all the work

11:51

from like YouTube videos.

11:53

And when that house did end

11:56

up selling, I lost $43,000 in the first house I

11:58

flipped. Okay.

11:59

So let's talk about that. People

12:02

always talk about their losses and they're always like,

12:04

yeah, you know, the first house I lost 60,000, I lost 43,000. Did

12:08

you just have that chilling in your bank account? Like

12:10

what happens when that happens? Man,

12:13

what an interesting story. So

12:14

at the time that I'm renovating this home,

12:17

I am barbacking, okay? So

12:19

I'm not making money. When

12:21

I needed to pay interest

12:24

payments or property tax on the home, I

12:26

was borrowing money from my friends. I

12:28

borrowed a couple grand here. I borrowed four grand from

12:30

my girlfriend at the time, now wife, right? So I

12:32

just started borrowing money. I had no money

12:34

at all. So the funding on that

12:36

deal was the first position from like a standard hard

12:39

money lender and then a second position of a

12:41

smaller amount from like a friend

12:43

of mine that I connected with at

12:45

a 20% interest rate, okay,

12:47

by the way. Just knowing nothing, I was like, how about 20%? That

12:50

was your friend? That sounds good. Your friend. Yeah,

12:53

I don't know if they were your friend. I'll be honest. Well,

12:55

he likes to make money. He's a businessman. Okay,

12:58

okay, I can't blame him. So once I finished

13:00

the house, I moved to Pittsburgh,

13:02

but the house didn't sell for about a year and a half

13:04

later

13:05

after it was finished, okay? So

13:07

probably six months in, nine months into sitting on

13:09

the market, I'm like, wow,

13:11

I'm gonna lose money, okay? So I realized

13:13

I'm gonna lose money. I honestly had no money. When

13:15

I moved to Pittsburgh, I moved in a very rough house

13:18

intentionally to start saving money.

13:20

I was starting to save money, trying to get caught back

13:22

up, getting prepared.

13:24

When the time came that the house was

13:26

sold and I was going to lose that $43,000, the

13:29

first investor was gonna be fully paid off, I believe, if

13:31

I remember correctly, or very close to it.

13:33

Full principal amount plus interest, okay?

13:36

And then that second investor, I went

13:38

to him, I said, you have to sign off on this loan.

13:40

You have to satisfy the mortgage

13:42

and I will pay

13:44

you back. So when the time

13:46

came, I was hustling. I had a little bit of money saved

13:49

up. I sold my vehicle. There

13:51

was a decent vehicle, it was a Chevy Tahoe,

13:53

got a little money from that, bought a $1,000 Chevy

13:57

Cavalier or something that I'm driving,

13:59

was able to come.

13:59

up with about $20,000. So I have that 43

14:02

grand I owe at the closing table.

14:04

I was able to come up with an extra 20 grand,

14:07

so I paid him. Now I'm down to broke, back to

14:09

zero.

14:09

And I told that investor, give me time. I'm

14:12

hustling, I'm making moves. I got my real estate license,

14:15

I'm down in Pittsburgh, and I'll pay you back. It

14:17

took me about a year, and I was just grinding hustling.

14:19

And I probably year, year and a half, and I

14:21

paid him off. Wow. Okay. And were they

14:23

amenable to that? Or were they like,

14:26

okay, this is our last deal

14:28

moving on from here? Or did

14:30

they respect that you were able to make it happen?

14:32

I mean, I have a great relationship

14:34

with them today. So yeah, I think they were,

14:37

they believe me. I made a mistake,

14:39

but I'm a man of my word. And there was zero

14:41

question that I would make them whole, and I did. And I didn't

14:43

just make them whole on their principal amount. I made them

14:46

whole on the full interest. And that 20% continued

14:48

to accrue during that time period. Cool. There

14:51

was no adjustment whatsoever. Good for you. That's

14:53

really, really, really great. Thank you.

14:55

Follow-up question, not as

14:58

important or impactful, but when you say that the realtor

15:00

is your now wife, did you meet said

15:02

realtor for the first time on this project?

15:06

So I was introduced to

15:08

said realtor by a friend

15:11

of mine, and she said, I'm getting my real estate license.

15:13

And I said, I'm looking for a flip.

15:14

She said, okay, I'll help you out. I said, perfect. Okay.

15:17

All right. So that's a real ROI right there. You got a wife.

15:19

Congratulations. Well, you know what I said? I have 100%,

15:21

100%. And I can't say what I do want to say is that

15:26

yet my very first experience with

15:29

my wife, I lost $43,000. So I give her a hard time,

15:31

you know, but no, couldn't

15:34

be happier. Couldn't be happier. It was amazing. All right.

15:36

So that was a pretty gnarly entry

15:38

into flipping a house here. What got you

15:40

back into investing after that? For sure. So

15:43

I mentioned earlier, I got my real estate license

15:45

and I moved to Pittsburgh while that house was still

15:47

on the market waiting to sell as a flip.

15:49

I got my real estate license and were just like hustling

15:52

as a real estate agent.

15:53

And I knew I wanted to get back into investing,

15:55

but there was a lot I had to learn. So

15:58

when I was down here, I was just doing a lot.

15:59

of networking, connected with people, asking questions,

16:03

learn as much as I could, and I had to make

16:05

up for that 20 or the 43 grand I lost.

16:08

So I gave myself a little

16:10

bit of time and just understood real

16:12

estate better and the real estate market in

16:14

Pittsburgh, and then weighed my options

16:17

of

16:18

how can I get back into it and

16:20

mitigate my risk a little bit from a financial standpoint.

16:22

Do you remember what some of the things were that clicked

16:24

in your mind when during this period

16:27

of learning real estate better? Was there

16:29

specifics you can

16:30

point to where you were like, oh, I thought it was this way,

16:33

but I realized it was that way? Or a pattern that you

16:35

recognize, anything for people that are in

16:37

that same stage of I'm trying to learn real estate, but

16:39

they don't know what that means? You know, the first thing that

16:41

comes to mind, and I hope this answers

16:43

your question here, but the first thing that comes to mind now is like,

16:46

I very rarely

16:48

do a deal now unless I

16:51

feel like I have at least two exit strategies,

16:54

right? And when I went into that first flip,

16:57

I didn't even know about, I

16:59

didn't know what a refined like a burr

17:01

was,

17:02

right? Like, I it was like purchase

17:04

this, renovate it, sell it, right? And there was

17:06

like no backup options. But looking back, if I

17:08

was in the same position, the amount of

17:10

you know, knowledge I have now, I would have refinance,

17:12

I would have made a couple adjustments and

17:15

probably got out of that for little to no

17:17

money out of pocket.

17:18

But yeah, the biggest thing I would say is just

17:21

like having two exit strategies when you're

17:23

entering a deal. So you learned how to analyze a property

17:25

for cashflow. You learn, right?

17:27

And that was before you just knew about flipping houses,

17:30

which I think is where everyone

17:31

starts or at least the uneducated

17:34

about real estate looking at like buy low, sell high, because

17:37

we all understand that concept, whether it's stocks

17:39

or whether you're trying to like buy

17:41

a couch and sell a couch for more, you're

17:43

making money on Etsy, buy low, sell high is

17:45

something we all understand. And that was how you

17:48

got into real estate, which is that one track mind. And then

17:50

you started to learn what buy and hold real estate look like

17:52

for sure. Maybe what neighborhoods were better

17:54

to have tenants in, you started to evaluate

17:57

like,

17:58

if this property would cashflow or

18:00

how much equity would have. Is that what you're saying when you're

18:02

saying you learned how real estate worked? Yeah, that's accurate

18:05

information. Yeah, just, yeah, you're right. Underwriting the deal,

18:07

understanding your options more.

18:09

You know, just it was limited knowledge and like,

18:12

and just

18:14

one track minds, perfect way to put it. And

18:16

where did you go to get this information at that time? I

18:18

had a mentor that I, there was the

18:21

individual that was flipping houses that I started working

18:23

with. So when I say that, you know, I asked

18:25

him a handful of questions, but

18:28

I just kinda, and this is, this

18:30

is good and bad about me. I just kinda

18:32

like make moves. Like I just pull

18:34

the trigger and I get things done. You learn by doing

18:37

is what you say. Yes. And

18:39

so like, you know, like I said, that's good and bad about me. I

18:41

work with a life coach and we established very

18:43

early on that I have an alter ego

18:45

and his name is Kane. So we got Kane and

18:48

Jesse.

18:48

And that was, you know, a bit

18:51

of, that's a way I operate. Kane kind

18:53

of runs a show a lot of times and we just pull the trigger and make

18:55

moves, which is helpful and hurtful at times. I think

18:57

it's a good thing. I was just talking to a student last night who

18:59

they're like, yeah, I don't know. It's a bad habit. Like

19:02

I, I just do things when I'm like, no, that's what

19:04

I think that's the most important skill you can have

19:06

because you can figure it out on the backend.

19:09

Whereas most people try to figure out on the front end and lose

19:11

every deal that ever comes across the table. So

19:14

I think, you know, obviously you need to counteract how

19:17

quickly you know, you act after you

19:18

take action and you need to make sure that your ducks

19:20

are in a row. But I think acting quickly is the

19:23

number one skill you can have as a, as a real

19:25

estate investor personally. I couldn't agree

19:27

more. There's no question whatsoever

19:29

that

19:31

the reason I've reached a level of success

19:34

is because I take action. Yeah. And

19:36

in general, if I had to pick between the person that carefully

19:39

analyzes every step, that's my personal is

19:41

probably more that way, which is why I ended up being a pretty

19:43

good educator because I have to understand

19:46

every single piece of the engine before

19:48

I trust to get in the car and drive it versus

19:50

the person like you that just jumps in and does it and

19:52

figures it out as they go. Your personality

19:55

will event will ultimately learn faster

19:57

and be more successful if they don't quit. So,

19:59

uh,

19:59

I don't want anyone to hear this and think like, oh, you're being reckless.

20:02

The key to people like you is learning, if you

20:05

know you're just gonna jump in and do things, mitigating

20:08

risk becomes incredibly important. You don't wanna put

20:10

your whole nest egg into the first deal when you don't

20:12

know what you're doing and you're trying to figure it out. So

20:15

learning how to know I'm gonna make

20:17

mistakes, it's gonna bleed money, but I'm gonna learn

20:19

quicker, so make sure that I don't lose all my

20:21

money, or all my time, or all my opportunity

20:24

is extra important. So getting

20:27

back into moving forward for you, walk us

20:29

through your strategy of

20:29

how you're increasing value and setting your own

20:32

comps now that you understand real estate better. Yeah, for

20:34

sure. So after I moved to Pittsburgh, I

20:36

moved to an area called Homestead, Munhall,

20:39

West Homestead, it's three boroughs, all

20:41

kind of together here,

20:42

literally across the river from Pittsburgh.

20:45

And

20:45

I saw that there was a

20:48

lot of opportunity here at real estate. To be

20:50

very frank, the area

20:53

is a little rough in sections, but

20:56

there was a lot of opportunity based on location,

20:58

some of the development that was already in the works right there on

21:00

the waterfront. And so

21:03

I realized that being

21:06

an agent, I worked with a lot of buyers, and so I

21:08

can understand what is interesting or

21:10

appealing to them.

21:11

And so I realized there was an opportunity

21:13

here to where if you can create a cool enough

21:16

product, a trendy enough product,

21:17

then you can kind of pull buyers

21:19

to a certain area. Like you can get this house for 115,000 or 150,000,

21:24

you know what I mean, like after renovated. And

21:26

so what happened was, or what I do, I should

21:29

say,

21:29

is the concept is fairly

21:32

easy. I'll buy five homes all

21:34

in the same area, okay?

21:37

All five of those houses, I'll renovate

21:39

just as nice, except house number five

21:42

might be on a street that's a little bit

21:44

nicer than those other four homes, okay?

21:47

In addition, I'll put a little extra

21:49

money into the house that I'm going to sell.

21:51

The items that I put money into

21:54

doesn't necessarily make the home more valuable

21:56

from an appraisal standpoint. It makes it more

21:58

valuable from a... like a cell, it's like

22:01

more sellable, right? Yeah, you're going to sell

22:03

it quicker. That's right. If a bedroom has an accent

22:05

wall, right?

22:06

It looks cooler, it's trendier, but

22:08

it's not going to appraise for more, okay?

22:11

And so what I do is I renovate all five,

22:13

I place tenants in four of those homes, house

22:16

number five, I put a little more money into it, and

22:18

I sell it for as much as I can to create a comp

22:21

and increase the value in the area. So from

22:23

a flipping standpoint, I'm different than most

22:25

people

22:26

because all of my efforts are in one area.

22:28

And so over the years, I have increased the comps

22:30

to, and now when I say this doesn't mean

22:33

all the houses were the same criteria. Some

22:35

were a three bed, some might be a four bed, but it can

22:37

show you that general idea. The first

22:39

house that I flipped, purchased, renovated,

22:42

the resale number was 115,000, and

22:44

that was a big deal for the area, okay? 115, 150, 190, 212, 270, 425.

22:53

And so all of the homes that I own in

22:55

this area are continuing to increase in

22:57

value because of the comps that

22:59

I'm creating. So I play a big impact

23:02

in this market, and

23:04

I've been doing it for years now. This is why it is

23:06

so important to have a good real

23:08

estate agent selling your houses if you're flipping

23:10

homes, if you're just selling anything, because

23:13

the point you make gets missed on so many people.

23:16

Value

23:17

can come in many different forms. Like

23:20

just when you think about how we determine what a property

23:22

is worth, there is not one

23:25

singular agreed upon metric for determining

23:27

what it's worth. There's what an appraiser

23:29

would say it's worth. There's what a different appraiser would

23:31

say it's worth. There's what it's worth from a cashflow perspective.

23:34

There's what it's worth if you were to sell it versus

23:37

if you were to hold it. There's what it's worth to a buyer on

23:39

the open market that really wants it. It

23:41

is a real estate, we talk about it as

23:43

if it's this objective numbers

23:46

oriented entity,

23:47

which you do have to approach it from that way if you're trying

23:49

to make money, but values are incredibly

23:52

subjective. And your point really

23:54

highlights that. An accent

23:57

wall

23:58

to an appraiser is worth nothing. They're not gonna. to

24:00

give you the extra $12 of value for the paint

24:02

that you put on it. But to the person who's

24:04

buying it might make them pay five

24:06

grand more than a different house that

24:08

had the same bedroom bathroom count because

24:11

they want to make sure their offer gets accepted, not someone

24:13

else's. And real estate agents who live in

24:15

this space, we see this all the time.

24:18

We see the people that come to us with a home and we know this

24:20

is going to be hard to sell. It's got outdated

24:22

stuff. It looks ugly. It smells musky. But

24:25

the person who owns it says it's

24:27

got the same bedroom and bathrooms as that

24:29

house that

24:29

sold for $270. Why

24:32

would mine only sell for $220? You're ripping

24:34

me off. But we know that house

24:37

had a landscaped yard, really pretty

24:39

area, nice view, closer to the school.

24:42

It got four offers. That's why it sold for $270. Yours

24:44

is going to get zero offers until it sits on the

24:47

market for two months and then we reduce the price.

24:49

Yeah, absolutely. It's a very good point and very

24:52

accurate because I

24:54

mentioned this earlier, but being an agent, I

24:57

have good insight to what buyers

24:59

are looking for. The truth is the vast

25:02

majority of time, people are pulled or

25:04

there's heavy emotion involved in the home. And

25:06

if it's a really cool, really trendy

25:08

house, people are willing to pay more, period. It's

25:12

not a sure thing you're going to get the appraisal and

25:14

there's challenges with that every time. But

25:17

that has worked for me so far and I'm continuing

25:19

to do it. Well, it's tiny little pieces of information

25:22

that lead to big results. Rob, what do you think about

25:24

this whole thing? Because you're not a real estate agent, but you're

25:26

kind of a fly in the wall right now. So the

25:28

thing that I'm looking for clarity on is when

25:30

you were talking about the strategy, I thought you

25:32

were saying that you were making one really nice so that

25:35

you can sell it at a higher rate, so that you could

25:37

sell the other four

25:39

basically. But it sounds like you just placed the tenants

25:41

on there. So what is the purpose for

25:44

making that fifth one nice and selling it at a higher

25:46

one if it's not necessarily benefiting your

25:48

next flip? Does that make sense? I think I

25:50

follow what you're saying. So let me try to answer that

25:52

for you. The idea here is that

25:55

I'm not looking – that's where I say a little abnormal

25:57

than other people. I'm not looking to make

25:59

money.

25:59

on my flips.

26:01

I'm looking to increase the value of

26:03

the home in the area as much as I can

26:05

because

26:06

that will build my net worth from an equity

26:08

standpoint on the four homes that I keep,

26:10

the tenants are in place. Got it. So let's

26:13

say you break even on the flip, okay? And

26:15

you bought it at a price where all

26:17

the homes are valued around 200 and you're

26:20

able to sell for 250, but you broke even

26:22

for whatever reason. Yep. And you have four other

26:24

homes in that neighborhood that were valued at 200 that

26:27

now get pulled much closer to 250. Theoretically

26:30

speaking, if every one of them goes up by 50

26:32

grand, you have four of them, you just increased your net worth

26:34

by $200,000 by breaking even

26:36

on a flip. Oh, okay. Exactly. And so

26:38

that's why I'm willing to, like that's where

26:40

all my efforts are here. And that's where I'm focused. I'm

26:43

very long-term goal oriented and I'm

26:45

working on building my net worth, not the quick buck

26:47

on the flip,

26:48

right? And so yeah, I've continued

26:50

to build value in the area and build equity. Oh

26:52

man, Jesse, I love this man. Yeah,

26:54

I'm really glad I clarified that because

26:57

you basically made 200K on that flip. That's

27:00

exactly right. And the truth is there's times,

27:02

like one of my most recent flips, I mean, we

27:04

worked on it for 12 months. It was a very

27:06

long project, right? And I made 10

27:09

grand. When I say make 10 grand, if I work on

27:11

a project for 12 months and I walk away with $10,000,

27:14

I lost money. Right. But

27:16

the increase in value of all the

27:18

other properties and what's funny is that

27:21

it's a small community and there's a lot of people that have

27:23

lived here his whole life and like every time I list

27:25

what I call my comp setters,

27:27

people like,

27:28

no way, there's no way you're selling

27:30

that. And I have every time, you know what I mean? I'm not

27:32

saying that's going to continue, but it's worked. Here's

27:34

why I think this is incredibly important for

27:37

everybody who's trying to make money in today's

27:39

market. It is harder than I've ever seen, Rob,

27:41

I think you probably agree to cashflow

27:44

and to make money in real estate right now.

27:46

Like it's possible to do as a house

27:48

flipper. It's getting close. I don't

27:51

want to say it's impossible. It's getting incredibly difficult

27:53

to find a good cash on cash return

27:56

on real estate because of the competition

27:58

we have. And in order to throw.

27:59

in the market we're in right now, you have

28:02

to break out of the cash flow

28:05

microscope that you're just looking

28:07

at this one way to make money

28:09

in real estate. You make money several ways in

28:12

real estate. And I've been talking about a better

28:14

way to look at money rather than just cash in

28:16

the bank is money is a store of energy.

28:19

The

28:19

store of energy that we call cash is

28:21

when you keep money in your savings account or in

28:23

your checking account. And flipping houses, if you

28:25

do it well, can increase your

28:28

energy in that storage vehicle, but

28:31

it's ineffective because you have capital gains taxes,

28:33

you have risks that you're throwing into this entire thing,

28:35

you have market fluctuations where you can actually lose

28:38

money. So you try to flip a house and lost $43,000 out

28:41

of that specific storage.

28:44

Equity is a different way

28:47

of storing energy. It's stored

28:49

inside of the asset.

28:51

And your strategy, though it's semi-complicated,

28:54

although it's actually somewhat simple if

28:57

you understand it, is a way of amplifying the energy

28:59

that you're storing in the other properties that

29:01

you have. It's not being taxed. You

29:04

have vehicles to get the energy out of it, a

29:06

cash out refinance, a HELOC if you want,

29:08

a 1031 sale that's gonna be tax friendly, different

29:13

methods. And though this might sound

29:16

like it's fancy

29:18

for lack of a better phrase, it's not at all.

29:20

This is very fundamentally sound approach

29:23

to real estate investing. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely,

29:25

that's what I tell people. It

29:28

sounds like it could potentially be difficult, but all

29:30

my efforts are in just one area. And I think most

29:33

people don't do that.

29:34

Challenges, finding deals and things of that

29:36

nature, but it's worked for me and

29:38

I'm continuing to do it.

29:40

It's essentially burrowing

29:42

an area, an entire area,

29:45

if you wanna look at it that way. Well, it's also how realtors

29:47

tend to look at geographical locations.

29:50

We look at them like farms. You

29:52

wanna send all your mailers, you wanna do all your

29:54

door knocking, hold all your open houses, ideally

29:57

in the same neighborhood because you're touching the same

29:59

people, you're building up.

29:59

up your presence and your brand in that neighborhood.

30:02

The same people are seeing your for sale signs on

30:04

houses when they're driving to work. You could

30:06

sell 10 houses across the entire

30:08

city of Pittsburgh or 10 houses in one

30:11

location. And if you sell them in one

30:13

location, that's gonna give you an amplified exponential

30:15

return on people that come back to you to sell

30:17

their house. You've kind of taken that approach that realtors

30:20

have and applied it to the world of real estate

30:22

investing and you've seen similar results. Do you think that's where you

30:24

got it from? No, no, it's

30:26

not where I got it from. To tell you the truth, where

30:28

I got it from was I moved

30:29

to this area specifically because

30:32

I have pit bulls, as we mentioned earlier,

30:34

okay, I'm a dog dad, right? I moved to this

30:36

area specifically because it's difficult to find a

30:38

place for rent when you have pit bulls based on breed

30:40

restrictions. So I had a friend that had

30:42

a house that was like really rough shape.

30:45

Anyways, I moved here and after I moved here, I

30:47

knew I could pick up real estate for very inexpensive.

30:50

I mean, I bought a house for three grand, I bought a house for

30:52

five grand. So very, very inexpensive.

30:54

As you can imagine, needs a lot of work, right? But

30:57

once I was here, I thought,

30:59

I believe this house

31:02

is worth X amount, okay? And it's like, but there's

31:04

nothing else saying it based on the comparables

31:06

that it is. And I said, how do comparables

31:08

come about when a house sells, right?

31:11

And that just blows my mind. It's like, okay, well, I can make a big

31:13

impact on this market by creating

31:16

something that a buyer will be so emotional

31:18

about that they'll pull the trigger out if I can get over that appraisal

31:20

hurdle. So it was more about like,

31:22

I was creating a cool product in an area that

31:24

I wanted to focus on and

31:27

I knew it could be worth more. And so I knew

31:29

I just had to sell a house to create that comp, that's what

31:31

it was. And how long had you been outside the

31:33

Pittsburgh area? When I moved to

31:36

Pittsburgh, I moved to this area, Homestead,

31:38

Mon Hall, West Homestead. I say that because they're all connected,

31:40

you're interchanging, but like, I moved directly here.

31:43

When I say across the river, I mean like,

31:45

literally across the river. Like I could probably throw a baseball

31:47

and hit Pittsburgh. Okay. I'm not very

31:49

good at baseball. I could probably throw something over there.

31:52

A rock. Yeah, a rock, a rock. So

31:55

we've already established this is a really genius

31:57

strategy, I mean, kind

31:59

of since.

31:59

since sort of going this route, setting your

32:02

comp and everything like that, how has it been

32:04

working for you on the grander scheme? Do you feel

32:06

like... Is it one of those things? Because it seems like

32:08

you sort of have to do it a few times before

32:10

it really starts kind of having an effect on

32:12

a zip code or a neighborhood.

32:15

How's it actually panning out for you now? For

32:17

sure. When I first

32:19

got back into real estate investing, I did

32:21

one deal a year or two deals a year. So

32:23

I'm not making an impact on the market. Skip ahead

32:26

seven years and

32:27

people start to catch on and

32:29

see what's happening. As someone's like,

32:31

a home sold for 220, a home sold for 270?

32:33

I'm like, yeah,

32:35

yeah. So the area starts gaining some

32:37

traction, gaining momentum. And it's not

32:40

just me over here anymore. I feel like I was a little

32:42

bit of a pioneer to an extent

32:44

from a flipping standpoint or renovating standpoint

32:46

in the area and became

32:48

fairly known in the area in a short amount

32:50

of time for taking these risks and

32:53

putting that type of money into these homes. But

32:55

yeah, it's a collective effort

32:57

between multiple different investors in this area now, just

32:59

like the community in general. It's just definitely getting stronger

33:01

and just getting a lot more attention and it's

33:04

turning. It's definitely transitioning or

33:07

vitalizing. You've earned somewhat

33:09

of a moniker, like a nickname

33:11

in the area, right? There

33:14

are a handful of people that call me the mayor

33:16

of Munhall. Very cool. Hey, listen,

33:18

it's the titular

33:21

title, unofficial mayor of Munhall.

33:23

And David, do you remember what titular means from our last

33:25

podcast? I remember it was looked

33:27

up. Yes. It means significant in name only.

33:30

Is that fair? Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Look at

33:32

you, Dave. Well, I'm glad that you broke that out because

33:34

I had no idea. I just gnawed and laughed. So

33:36

yeah, that's the same thing that I asked Rob. Why

33:38

are you saying that you even know what that means? And I was like, basically,

33:41

and I gave the answer and you're like, that's not what it means. And

33:43

then I gave a congruent answer that I think

33:45

counted. Anyways, okay.

33:48

So

33:49

love this, love the answer to that. That's really

33:51

amazing. And I think it's super smart to

33:53

kind of go about this way. It seems like it

33:56

takes a little bit to build, but honestly, probably

33:58

not as one with, not as long as one would.

33:59

would think. Tell me, how long had you, so

34:02

you said that you kind of moved right outside, whatever, that's

34:04

where you moved to. How long were

34:07

you there before the school came along?

34:09

Yeah, so I've been in this area for

34:11

probably

34:12

six or seven years, I would say. And

34:15

I purchased that school about three years

34:18

ago. So I guess I was investing

34:21

for about three years. I started to become known in the community.

34:23

And so people were connecting me with deals,

34:25

off-market deals, not even wholesalers.

34:28

Just like I was known in the community because I live in the community

34:30

and I invest in the community.

34:31

And so people are like, hey, I know about this school,

34:34

individual needs to get rid of it. I'm like, yeah, I'd

34:36

love to check it out. And so it was brought to

34:38

me. And so I picked it up in 2019. And

34:40

I think it's important to say

34:42

that when you buy a high school, the very

34:44

first thing that you need to do is go buy some

34:47

go-karts and a mini bike and rip around

34:49

the school on the go-karts and mini bikes with

34:51

your friends. So we already did that, right? So that

34:53

was a blast. Perhaps the best advice ever

34:55

given on BiggerPockets. Yeah,

34:57

yeah, yeah.

34:58

If there's anything you take away from today, it's that. Honestly,

35:01

that sounds pretty amazing. I'm

35:03

jealous of that, of that bucket

35:05

list experience right there. It was awesome. All

35:07

right, before we move on to the next portion of our

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35:41

So someone brings you this high school, and

35:44

then you're like, I'm gonna turn it into a

35:47

giant house. Like, what did you

35:49

even have in mind when it came

35:51

across your desk at first? So when I first

35:53

got connected to it and you walk the building, it's just like,

35:55

wow, this structure is amazing. Just

35:58

the building itself is amazing structure.

35:59

beautiful brick, huge windows, tall ceilings,

36:02

terrazzo floors are out, like just

36:04

huge auditorium, very cool

36:06

gymnasium. Like when you walk into

36:08

the building, like you just, it's just

36:10

a vibe, right? It's a really cool space

36:13

and it's like,

36:14

man, I want this, I wanna be involved. I

36:16

believe in this area, I think I can figure something

36:18

out with it, right? And so, you

36:20

know, we went under contract at a different number

36:22

after I ran, did some inspections and things

36:24

of that nature, phase one inspection and such, I

36:26

was able to get him down from what

36:29

we were under contract at of 175 to 100,000. So

36:32

yeah, after I acquired it, first thing we did

36:34

was grab the mini bikes and the go-karts and after

36:36

we mess around for a few weeks, I knew that I needed to

36:38

connect with partners to get this deal

36:40

done, whatever we were gonna do, because

36:43

of the size of the job and from the financial standpoint

36:45

as well, it was just like beyond my means. And

36:47

so I started asking

36:49

around, talking to people, explaining that I had

36:52

it, think, you know, brainstorming on different ideas

36:54

of what I could do. And I connected to an

36:56

individual whose name is Dan Spanovich. And

36:59

Dan and I went back and forth for a little while

37:01

about partnering up and

37:03

he had had experience converting a property

37:06

before, like a conversion

37:08

school to, or maybe it was a warehouse

37:11

to apartments. So we started having that conversation,

37:13

but the truth is like, we couldn't come to an agreement

37:16

on evaluation of what

37:18

he would buy in at.

37:19

And so it kind of fizzled and like, and

37:22

I lost Dan, if you will, from a partner standpoint,

37:24

we couldn't come to an agreement. So probably

37:26

a month later or two months later, I was connected

37:29

to another individual, a friend of mine, Adam

37:31

Kaluchi from New Jersey. And

37:34

we started talking and after he walked the building,

37:36

he was just like, I want in, I wanna be a part of this.

37:39

So we quickly came to an agreement on

37:41

the valuation of the property and

37:43

became 50-50 partners. After

37:46

about maybe a year of us spinning

37:48

our wheels, trying to figure things out, come up with a plan,

37:51

we reconnected with Dan Spanovich

37:53

and came to an agreement on the buy-in. And

37:56

then he got back into the deal. And

37:59

from that point, forward, we knew we were going

38:01

to do apartments. So the

38:03

truth is that Dan was the brains

38:05

of this operation and we couldn't have done

38:07

it without him.

38:16

Okay, this is a really good background

38:18

into this very intriguing deal that

38:20

neither Rob nor I or anyone else I know has

38:23

ever heard of. We're going to jump into this traditional deep

38:25

dive style now that we have an idea of

38:27

what this thing looks like. So how did you find

38:29

this deal? The deal was brought to me off

38:32

market because I'm plugged into the community,

38:34

the truth. Okay, so this is just people that know this

38:36

guy buys real estate and they said maybe he'll buy

38:39

this thing that we need to sell. Yep, that's right. And

38:41

there was individuals in the community that really believe

38:44

in the community

38:46

becoming revitalized, transitioning,

38:48

right? And so they're bringing me deals because

38:50

they know I'm taking action. Very

38:52

cool. Yep. When you put yourself out there, I've

38:54

been telling people to send me unique deals and

38:57

stuff on Instagram lately and people

38:59

send them.

38:59

They do because a lot of people are too scared to take

39:02

on a school or on a unique property or whatever,

39:04

but they want to see it get done because they want to

39:07

see it have new life, right? So very

39:09

cool, man. How did you negotiate it? So

39:12

they were originally asking 225,000. I knew that the seller was in a

39:14

tough spot and had

39:19

to get rid of the property. So it was already kind

39:21

of a fire sale.

39:22

And after I put it under contract,

39:24

I got it under contract for 175,000. Once I did my inspections, phase

39:27

one study

39:29

and such, I'm not

39:31

surprised, but we came across asbestos

39:33

and a few other things. And after I got the remediation

39:36

quote, it was 75,000. At this point, it was weeks into the

39:40

deal and we were getting very close to the point

39:42

in which the seller needed to sell. And

39:45

so right or wrong, I knew that I

39:47

kind of had the leverage here. And so

39:49

I said, hey, I want 75,000 off for this

39:52

asbestos remediation and I'm not

39:54

moving forward. And they said, okay, done. And we

39:56

closed a few weeks afterwards. So that's how I was able to

39:58

get it significantly.

39:59

cheaper than even they were asking. Did it end up actually

40:02

costing 75K to get the asbestos

40:04

remediation done? I believe it may

40:06

have been. Yeah, I believe it may have been. I think we may have got... I'm

40:10

not 100% sure, but I think it was in that ballpark

40:13

for sure. Okay. And how did you fund this deal?

40:15

Investors, a private investor. So I

40:18

have experience with single families and small

40:20

multi-units and been doing that for a while, and it was

40:22

a private individual that funded the deal. And

40:25

what did you end up doing with those? A flip, rental,

40:28

burr? Yeah. So

40:29

we did a full conversion.

40:32

We converted the school to 31 apartments,

40:36

and we're keeping that as

40:38

rentals. And more importantly, you rode go-karts all

40:40

over the entire place to christen

40:43

the birches. The extra income is the go-kart

40:45

track income that they produce in the gymnasium.

40:48

Rob, we may need to do the same thing in Scottsdale. That

40:50

would be really cool. Put a go-kart track. And

40:53

even more importantly, we got to talk about the details

40:55

of that. In the gymnasium, there

40:57

was a water leak, and the gym floor

41:00

had bowed so much that there was this

41:02

big,

41:03

we'll say jump, we'll say mini bike

41:05

jump. It was bowed so much

41:08

that we'd come

41:10

ripping around through the cafeteria and

41:13

hit this bump that was in the gymnasium

41:15

floor to jump in. I mean, I got videos. It was

41:17

a good time. That's pretty awesome. Okay.

41:19

So what was the outcome after all was said and done? Yeah.

41:22

So we

41:24

all in, we're about 3.3 million

41:26

into the school, and our

41:28

most recent valuation was 4.7 million. Wow. That

41:32

is not what I expected on any of that. That's

41:34

a lot. You could

41:36

have paid the 250 and it probably wouldn't have even

41:38

barely made a dent in this deal. That's funny. I

41:40

was not expecting numbers that big. You're

41:43

saying you whittled them down to a hundred. I

41:45

know. And so with

41:47

that being said, I think

41:50

my dad called this my golden goose.

41:52

We all know that this was a killer deal. Very

41:55

rare if ever come across deals that

41:57

you're going to be able to build that much equity and have that much.

43:59

things of that nature. So there

44:02

was a huge tax benefit

44:04

there. We were able to obtain close to three

44:07

quarters of a million of historical tax credits. So

44:09

but I'm assuming these are credits that came from you

44:11

buying a property in this specific area

44:14

where the government said because you revitalized

44:17

this area that we really want to be

44:19

rejuvenated, we're going to give you tax credits moving

44:21

forward. That is correct. Yes, we got both

44:23

state and federal tax credits there. So

44:25

we were in a historical, I

44:28

guess, historical tax credit

44:29

area and had the ability. So we went through

44:32

an application process. Doesn't mean you're approved,

44:34

but we got approved and we're actually getting

44:36

approved the school across the street. So as

44:38

of now, it looks like we're getting 630,000 on that property. This

44:42

is another great point of how money comes in

44:44

more than one way with real estate. And we can miss

44:46

it when you just look at cashflow or buy

44:49

low sell high. They basically gave you 150 grand

44:51

a year. And

44:53

in tax credits, rather than giving that to you in cash,

44:56

but it's the same thing. A hundred

44:58

percent. It blew my mind.

44:59

It blew my mind. It's like, wow, more

45:02

knowledge wrapped around this. It's like, I should buy one

45:04

big building a year

45:06

to obtain the historical tax credits if I can.

45:08

I will have a tax bill. Yeah, it's certainly

45:10

like we've often said it's hard to find good deals, but

45:13

you can make good deals. And I noticed a lot

45:15

of people, they look for this home run

45:17

deal. I want to buy a place for a hundred grand

45:19

that's going to be worth 4.2 million or whatever.

45:22

I can't find one of those. What am I

45:24

supposed to do? But when you add up a whole

45:26

bunch of base hits into the same deal, you get the

45:28

equivalent of a home run. It's just looking for all

45:30

those different angles like what you did. Absolutely.

45:33

All right. So what's next for you? You're doing

45:35

another school across the street. Is this going to be your thing?

45:38

You're going to become the

45:38

Pittsburgh school converter?

45:42

A few things. I won't go too deep into it,

45:44

but yes, we have a school across the street.

45:46

I personally acquired a school a couple of months

45:48

ago, likely not going to convert

45:50

into apartments at this point.

45:53

But another thing I'm focusing on, two partners

45:55

of mine, we're putting together real estate fund.

45:58

So we're looking to get a fund up.

47:59

social skills that is terrified to

48:02

actually go on social media. I think it's talked into

48:04

this by the 23-year-old

48:06

in her office. And so rather than talking

48:09

on there, they do this little like bounce thing

48:11

where the music plays and there's a little bubble that pops

48:13

up that says like, do you think you

48:15

need 20% down? And then they point up here and

48:17

they dance and it says, well, you don't. You can

48:19

do it for three and a half percent down. And

48:21

then they point in another direction. DM

48:23

me for more info. It is the cringiest,

48:26

most horrible thing. And it spread like

48:28

wildfire.

48:29

Like just, yeah, no, well, I haven't done

48:32

that and I haven't even seen it. Actually, I need to get back

48:34

on. Check it out. No, no, you don't want to see it, man.

48:36

You don't. That's why I'm saying I'm like a groundhog. I

48:38

poke my head out. I see that on TikTok. I go

48:40

right back in my hole. I'm like, I'm not looking at

48:42

this anymore. Cut to two months later. That's

48:45

all David's feed is going to be. Yeah.

48:47

All right. Well, you can find me on TikTok

48:49

not doing any of that stuff. Also at Rob Built

48:52

on Instagram at Rob Built. I do a lot of reels. I

48:54

do a lot of trends, though. I bring the comedy

48:57

on TikTok. They say I'm the Walmart

48:59

of comedy in the world

48:59

of real estate. You can also find me on YouTube

49:02

at Rob Built as well. What about you, David? Yeah, I highly

49:04

recommend everyone to go follow Rob as well. He

49:06

comes up with the original stuff based

49:09

on a background as a marketer. I know

49:11

I'm getting serious right now and you are being funny. It's

49:13

really, really good. And he's not just copying

49:16

any trends. He sets trends.

49:18

And that's why he's my boy. Carry on. You

49:21

can find me at David. Oh, yeah. You want to hear

49:23

more? A little bit more. Keep

49:25

going. You

49:27

can find me at DavidGreen24.com or

49:29

follow

49:29

me on all of your social medias, LinkedIn, Instagram,

49:32

Facebook, whatever you use, at DavidGreen24. Add

49:35

the E at the end and look for the blue check mark, which I

49:37

have now, so you won't be taken

49:39

advantage of. Jesse, this was a

49:41

fantastic show, man.

49:43

I love it. I mean, you gave a ton of value from

49:45

flipping houses to set comps in the

49:48

area that you're