0:00

Hi everyone and welcome to the Bigger

0:02

Pockets podcast network. I'm your host today,

0:04

Dave Meyer. If you've been following along

0:06

the last couple of weeks both on the

0:09

Bigger Pockets podcast and our sister

0:11

podcast, the On the Market podcast,

0:14

we've been covering in depth the

0:16

NIR, National Association of Realtors

0:18

Antitrust Lawsuit Developments. For

0:20

those of you who haven't been following, first

0:22

and foremost, you can go listen to the

0:25

episodes we released last week, which was sort

0:27

of a factual accounting of

0:29

the lawsuits, what the jury decided,

0:31

what is in the actual settlement

0:34

that NIR agreed to last week.

0:37

Today, we're going to be going

0:39

into what happens from here. And

0:41

while last week we talked to

0:43

a reporter, this week we are

0:46

actually going to bring in four

0:48

experienced investor friendly agents to hear

0:50

first and foremost, their reaction to

0:52

this news about the NIR settlement,

0:54

what they're doing today to modify

0:56

their business, what they think might

0:58

happen in the future, and

1:01

how investors should be changing their

1:03

approach to working with real estate

1:05

agents. We have a great

1:07

lineup of guests today. First and foremost

1:09

is Avery Carl. You might have heard

1:11

her on the Bigger Pockets or On

1:13

the Market podcast before. She's a massive

1:15

agent and owns a big brokerage in

1:17

Florida called the Short-Term Shop. She also

1:19

wrote a book on short-term rentals for

1:21

bigger pockets. We have Craig Kirillop, who's

1:24

an agent out of Denver and the

1:26

founder of the Fi team. Next, we

1:28

have Juliet LaLau, who is an agent

1:30

working in both Hawaii and Denver. That

1:32

sounds awesome. And she is the founder

1:34

of Heavy Realty. And last but not

1:36

least, we have Mike Savignago, who is

1:38

an agent out of Chicago with United Real

1:40

Estate. And again, all of these are agents

1:43

who work with investors, have a lot of

1:45

experience in this industry and are going to

1:47

share their thoughts and insights about the changes

1:49

in the agent industry with us.

1:51

So let's get into it. Avery,

1:54

let's start with you in case any of

1:56

our audience is unfamiliar or didn't listen to

1:58

last week's show, where we sort of. When

2:00

into the technicalities of the

2:02

settlement, can you just fill

2:04

us in on how commissions

2:07

had traditionally been split prior

2:09

to this settlement? So.

2:12

While there hasn't been a set standard

2:14

because there is no standard to miss

2:16

and. What? Has typically happens

2:18

is when a listing agent goes

2:20

to take a listing is l

2:22

say hey mister seller and typically

2:24

we charge this amount and we

2:27

will split it with a buyer's

2:29

agent. So a separate agent that

2:31

is not affiliated with the listing

2:33

agents who brings a buyer usually.

2:35

Again there has been no standard

2:37

but it's usually city say seats

2:39

are a lot of. I think

2:41

that the general public is under

2:43

the assumption that it's always six

2:45

percent. It's not, it's always. Been

2:47

negotiable and I do think

2:49

that. There's. A little bit

2:52

of a misconception about what.

2:55

Has been happening prior to

2:57

this settlement so. Up.

3:00

Until now, it was required by

3:02

the National Association of Realtors works

3:04

a listing agent to offer some

3:06

compensation. Any compensation to a buyer's

3:08

agent. They couldn't offer zero dollars,

3:10

but they could offer one dollar.

3:12

And I think that a lot

3:14

of people aren't understanding that there

3:16

have been agents offering one dollar

3:18

commissions are five hundred dollar commission's

3:20

to buyers agent for decades. but

3:22

the public has not necessarily know

3:24

now so I think that's more

3:26

a we're dealing with here is

3:28

public perceptions than. Was actually been going on

3:31

out there in the real estate agent world up

3:33

until now. Thank. You for explaining

3:35

that because I do think there

3:37

a lot of confusion about how

3:39

things have worked traditionally particular for

3:41

people who are new to real

3:43

estate. never bought or sold the

3:46

home before and every. Now

3:48

that. This. Settlements

3:50

has been agreed upon.

3:52

How will this change?

3:55

I think it's again much more attains

3:57

in public perception. Then. It

3:59

is as. change in how things are done. And

4:01

I think that now

4:04

it's going to just be a

4:06

much more transparent conversation between buyers

4:08

agents and their buyers at the

4:10

beginning of the relationship and during

4:13

the relationship than it has been

4:15

before. Because up until now, buyers

4:18

haven't really been in the conversation as

4:20

much about what the commission being offered

4:23

is. And so I

4:25

think that there's gonna be a lot more

4:27

transparency, a lot more conversations happening sooner in

4:29

the transaction than there have been in

4:31

the past. Okay, thank you for

4:34

that background Avery, much appreciated. Mike, let's

4:36

turn it over to you. Do you

4:38

have the same understanding of how commission

4:40

negotiations will change as what Avery just

4:43

said? Yeah, I think like she said,

4:45

I mean, it's just gonna be more

4:47

awareness. And I recently

4:49

have had clients start reaching out

4:51

to me going, hey, what does this mean for

4:54

our transaction? Or what does this mean if I

4:56

list my house? I think they're

4:58

just more aware now that they

5:00

have options. Things are

5:02

negotiable, but honestly, I

5:04

haven't seen any of my clients do

5:07

this 0% commission for buyers.

5:09

They're still like, ah, I think we'll just

5:11

do it like we have been doing. But

5:13

I think that'll change a little bit. Is

5:15

there anything that you're doing in your business

5:17

proactively, Mike, to facilitate that change?

5:19

Or are you sort of just waiting to see

5:22

what happens? On the buyer side,

5:24

in case a listing agent doesn't have a

5:26

commission for me, I am

5:29

having my clients sign on

5:31

my exclusive contracts that if

5:34

in the event that a seller doesn't pay my

5:36

commissions, I am going to charge my buyer

5:39

a minimum or a percentage.

5:41

So yes, on my exclusive contract, I

5:43

am proactively putting that

5:46

in the contract in case a listing agent

5:48

doesn't want to pay me. I

5:51

haven't heard that. Is that something you

5:53

came up with? Or is this something

5:55

being adopted industry-wide? Well, I'm

5:57

in Chicago in my brokerage.

6:00

started doing that on our contracts and

6:02

my association. So I think

6:04

they're just kind of proactively getting ready for

6:06

this as well. Alright well Juliet

6:08

let's turn it over to you. I'd love to

6:10

just start by now. How did you

6:13

react when you heard about the settlement? Were

6:15

you surprised? I was a little surprised

6:17

but at the same time I think you know

6:19

I wasn't sure which direction this

6:21

was going to take the entire market. How people

6:23

were going to react in general was more my

6:26

concern was just how consumers, how

6:28

people that don't understand what maybe

6:30

agents do, what their reaction was going to be. It

6:32

was a little less on maybe how I was going

6:34

to get paid, what my future was going to look

6:37

like as an agent, but how

6:39

just the public was going to handle this

6:41

and how we were going to have to

6:43

untie a lot of knots due to media

6:45

misinformation or just people not understanding the process.

6:47

So at first it was a little bit

6:49

of confusion there but as I have been

6:52

really driving into understanding all of this

6:54

process better trying to immediately

6:57

make myself a better agent whether I'm

6:59

representing a buyer or a seller I'm

7:01

feeling a lot more confident even now

7:03

it's only been you know a few

7:05

days and that I've just been immersing

7:07

myself and I think that that preparation

7:09

and understanding of the entire process will

7:11

give people more confidence moving through this

7:13

change whether it happens or not. I

7:15

mean if this passes and goes through

7:17

it's going to have to affect everybody but if

7:19

it doesn't it's still going to affect a lot

7:21

of people that are now understand that it was

7:23

always negotiable and that they don't have to pay

7:25

and so how are we going to prepare for

7:27

that now and I think it's just a matter

7:29

of having knowledge and the more knowledge you have

7:31

the more confidence you have and so that's going

7:34

to be really important. That's a great perspective.

7:36

Craig I'd love to hear your opinion as

7:38

well. What was your reaction when you heard

7:40

the news? My first reaction when I ever

7:42

hear a news article that just blows up

7:44

is just like wait three

7:46

days and then kind of come back to it because

7:49

I don't like to fall into all the hype and

7:51

the like craziness that everyone is saying and

7:53

so I kind of did that. I waited a couple days

7:56

and then I just realized It's

7:58

all. It's more hype than anything else. I

8:00

forget the know this virus commission was

8:02

always negotiable. Now the buyers just know

8:05

that a sociable and so I take

8:07

You know what Mike said and when

8:09

Juliet said. I one hundred

8:11

percent agree with is that you now does

8:14

have to have those conversations up front with

8:16

your buyers. Bray actually bring your value and

8:18

I think this is a wonderful thing for

8:20

the industry. And makes it harder but

8:23

it's can eliminate fifty percent of the competition in

8:25

all of which are bad agents and no one

8:27

on this call is about isn't So we should

8:29

be very happy about this whole set of it.

8:31

So. I want to get back to that

8:33

idea of as some people leaving the industry but.

8:36

I can you just tell us a little

8:38

bit about logistically like how is this gonna

8:40

work so you start working with a buyer

8:42

What is this conversation going to look like.

8:45

Yes, I think it's just emphasizes the

8:47

importance of the buyer consultation. I think

8:49

a lot of agency to skip that

8:51

before, especially the inexperienced once and so

8:53

now there's gonna be a more and

8:55

a bigger emphasis. that's always what we're

8:57

done with our agents, on how to

8:59

actually have a have a conversation with

9:01

the buyer, sit down with them, run

9:03

them through the process, explain the value,

9:05

and explain why they would be foolish

9:07

to go on represented, or to go

9:09

with anyone else besides us in our

9:11

team or whatever. and hopefully they understand

9:13

that. And then of course I six

9:15

sellers. Are still if want to sell their

9:17

house? Are still going to. Offer.

9:19

A buyer's commission and the ages are enough to

9:21

look at on the deal by deal basis. When

9:23

they put enough or in haste is the silicon

9:25

pay for the commission or the not and mixer

9:27

they want to buy or know before they actually

9:29

right the offer ever did you want to japan.

9:31

Yeah just wanted to add to that because

9:33

I recently was a seller where this came

9:35

up so we bought last year like we

9:37

call on a fishing can't afford my husband

9:40

and the kids and I guess for me

9:42

sometimes that we live at the beach so

9:44

you can't get me off of each to

9:46

go to fishing campus ah to gonna hang

9:48

out at and we decided after six months

9:50

I think we bought a little too far

9:52

away. it's a little too much work. We

9:54

kind of want to sell this thing. And

9:56

when you go to sell land the

9:58

land asset class. The lot different from

10:01

the residential asset class that we're talking about.

10:03

And so we interviewed a few agents and

10:05

we picked one that we like the best

10:07

to sell it. And when we

10:10

got the contracts, a list of

10:12

property. There was a clause in there

10:14

that said. He could choose it.

10:16

It when he was not offering a buyer's

10:18

agent commission across the board, he was gonna

10:20

choose who would get whites. And you know,

10:22

we were not mean to sellers. We were

10:24

not in a bad financial position. we had

10:27

a need to fill which all sellers do.

10:29

They're selling for a reason rights, not necessarily

10:31

because they're going to go bankrupt if they

10:33

don't sell this properties. But our need was

10:35

oh, this is too far away as too

10:37

much. Let's get rid of it. And when

10:39

we saw that we said oh hey, you

10:41

know what? We. Don't like that we

10:44

want. Any. Buyers. To.

10:47

Have. Anybody. In the world who has a real

10:49

estate license like bring us or buyers because we want to

10:51

sell this thing we don't want it to sit on the

10:53

market so they. Mean. A We have to

10:55

keep paying mortgages on it and just sit

10:57

there if we can't get it sold so

10:59

he would not negotiate that with us. He

11:02

said if you know some agent that I've

11:04

never worked with that I don't know who

11:06

they are, their residents of residential agent who

11:08

doesn't know how to do Lance, I'm going

11:10

to pay them less than somebody who I

11:12

do lands with often and we didn't like

11:15

that. We said I don't care who's like

11:17

Aunt Susie agent it is, we want their

11:19

buyer if they're qualified. We want them to

11:21

buy this house from us and in this

11:23

property from us. And we ended up

11:25

not using that agent going of finding it

11:27

agent that was offering a decent buyer's agent

11:30

commission. He was offering City City to anyone

11:32

who brought a buyer because we wanted more

11:34

buyers and we're happy to pay someone's agent

11:36

to bring them to us so we can

11:38

get this sold And so I think they're

11:40

I don't think that all of a sudden

11:42

all of the sellers in the country are

11:44

going to say oh, we're not paying these

11:46

to want you know I'm willing to offer

11:48

other agents. A commission to bring me

11:51

buyers as I do have a need to get

11:53

this sold even though it's not necessarily a financial.

11:55

One of the great point and I feel for that

11:57

easy because if I were him I would not want

11:59

it. negotiate with you over an

12:01

agent contract, given your expertise. Okay,

12:06

so we need to take a quick break,

12:08

but when we come back, more from these

12:10

agents about their take on the NIR settlement

12:12

and what changes they expect to see in

12:14

the industry. Stick with us. You

12:18

might think you want real estate, but that's not

12:20

true. What you really want is

12:22

passive income. With new investors struggling to find

12:24

deals or get enough money to buy them

12:27

and veteran landlords tired of the constant tenant

12:29

phone calls, is there a better alternative?

12:32

Actually, there is. Short

12:34

Notes from Connect Invest. Connect

12:36

Invest is an online investing platform that allows

12:38

you to easily participate in passive real estate

12:40

investing and all you need is $500 to

12:42

start. Head

12:58

to connectinvest.com to

13:00

create your account. Fund your digital wallet with at least

13:02

$500. Select from 6,

13:04

12, and 24-month short notes with

13:08

annualized return rates up to 9%. Then

13:10

sit back and let your monthly returns roll in.

13:16

connectinvest.com/VP. Passive

13:19

income without the property headache? It's

13:21

possible. There's a way to

13:24

invest passively in real estate and get monthly

13:26

income without any tenants, maintenance, or property management.

13:28

The one we have been doing this for

13:30

years and if you're an accredited or high

13:32

net worth investor, you too can collect cash

13:34

flow without the headaches that come from owning

13:36

rentals. How? By investing

13:38

in a private real estate fund with

13:41

PPR Capital Management. PPR's co-founder Dave Van

13:43

Horn wrote the book on real estate

13:45

note investing for BP. But he's not

13:47

just investing in notes. Dave and his

13:49

team also have an extensive background in

13:51

commercial real estate and with PPR Capital

13:53

Management, They're strategically investing in both notes

13:55

and commercial real estate nationwide with over

13:57

half a billion dollars in assets. Your

14:00

Management Ppr has provided individuals with

14:02

the steady source of truly passive income

14:04

since two thousand and seven without ever

14:07

missing a payment. Check them out

14:09

at Investors ppr.com. Again, if you're

14:11

looking to get monthly passes income from

14:13

an experienced team with a strong track

14:15

record to to invest ppr.com Today. You

14:18

know how easy it is the by

14:21

an investment property from New Western? Just

14:23

head over to New Western Real Estate

14:25

Market place find investor Reddit Properties, get

14:27

help from the New Western team of

14:29

real estate specialists. Save time and money

14:31

in by the perfect property for your

14:33

goals. The thought it's easy or you

14:35

could try to find profitable deals yourself

14:37

I guess but that was becoming an

14:39

area expert and talking to dozens of

14:41

agents and sellers. from there you'll have

14:43

to cough properties calculate a harvey's make

14:45

offers in more offers in my then

14:47

you might be stuck. In analysis paralysis,

14:49

I think we go with Newwestern instead.

14:52

Newwestern makes real estate investing easy. Newwestern

14:54

requires a new property every thirty minutes

14:56

for the marketplace of over one hundred

14:59

and fifty thousand investors and with Newwesterns

15:01

licensed agents who are local investing experts,

15:03

your next investment properties much closer than

15:05

you think. Check out newwestern.com Become an

15:08

investor in the marketplace for free and

15:10

get local investment grade properties in your

15:12

inbox. They don't call mailbox money for

15:15

no reason that newwestern.com to find your

15:17

next investment property. Only thirty minutes until

15:19

new property pops up to get click.

15:22

And. Will come

15:24

back every one of here with agents

15:26

every Juliet Creggan Mike talking about the

15:28

and I are settlement, let's jump back.

15:31

July. I am curious. are you know we

15:33

talked a little bit and you all seem

15:35

like pretty calm about this after say like

15:38

i you know you really things on the

15:40

internet and view or social media never and

15:42

seems to be freaking out and all four

15:44

of you just have this calm demeanor to

15:46

as you think that's universal across the industry

15:49

or our peoples are like crack said maybe

15:51

new or our agents or less experience agents

15:53

are they concerned about this may be more

15:55

than the for view or. i would

15:58

imagine agents with less experience engine no matter

16:00

how long you've been in the business, if

16:02

you haven't been having these types of conversations

16:04

or been really been through these processes, you

16:06

might be a bit more nervous because you're

16:09

not going to be as prepared. And there

16:11

will be agents who will be more prepared

16:13

who understand how to have these conversations with

16:15

their listing agents and with their sellers, there's

16:17

going to be somebody that's going to be

16:21

having these conversations already or has been doing

16:23

them for years. And if you haven't been

16:25

doing them, you might be a bit nervous.

16:27

I think that with

16:30

what Craig was saying, and what a lot of

16:32

people are saying, there certainly are going to be

16:34

a huge exit of agents, those people that were part

16:36

time, the people that don't want to do the hard

16:39

work, because it is going to be more

16:41

work. And some people don't like that. And

16:43

some people certainly thought that getting your license

16:45

was super easy. All you have to do is open

16:47

doors, that it's just a walk in

16:49

the park. And that has never been the case,

16:51

at least ever for me, it's always been extremely

16:54

difficult one way or another, every transaction is different.

16:56

And I think that a lot of people are

16:58

certainly going to be bummed out that they now

17:01

have to work harder. I'm actually more excited that

17:03

I have to work harder, be better, be smarter.

17:05

And some people are certainly not going to feel that

17:07

way. Do you think that we're

17:09

going to see this sort of

17:11

mass exodus of people like people

17:13

say like half, you know, NAR

17:15

might lose two thirds of their

17:17

membership. Do you think it could

17:19

be that dramatic? Honestly, I think it

17:21

could be I mean, with just the way that rates

17:23

are, and just maybe there's other job opportunities now that

17:26

have been opening up for a lot of people, I

17:28

think that it could be, I would

17:30

hope that there would be a small glimmer

17:32

of that number that actually proves to be

17:34

wrong, where you have people saying, you know

17:36

what, I'm not going to be part of

17:38

that demographic or that percentage, I'm actually going

17:40

to use this opportunity to make myself better

17:42

and to do the work. I don't know

17:45

how many people think that way. I don't

17:47

know how many other people have other options.

17:49

I myself have given myself no other option

17:51

Except for real estate. So it's, you know, just one

17:53

direction that I have to go, burn the boats type

17:55

of a thing. So There's no exit. So It's just

17:57

gonna have to make me better. And You know, there

17:59

might. The other people that have another

18:01

opportunity that looks better is easier is

18:03

more convenient that they might go to

18:05

so we we will see that over

18:07

time. I'm a little thrilled as Craig

18:09

was saying that if there are more

18:11

agents bad agents that leave that's going

18:13

to be wonderful for everybody else that

18:16

stays an for all of the consumers,

18:18

sellers and buyers investors it's gonna be

18:20

a benefit to everybody. asks if that

18:22

agencies. As as a gray perspective

18:24

and love the book Burn The Boathouse.

18:26

Going to mention that after you were

18:28

talking about giving yourself no other option

18:30

if anyone wants to read it paper

18:33

about just sort of like forcing yourself

18:35

to find success in your chosen path.

18:37

Highly recommend it. Like I think, given

18:39

how measured all of your approaches are

18:42

here I'm I'm curious if you see

18:44

that working with investors. Is.

18:46

Going to insulate you a little bit

18:48

were sort of seems the prospect for

18:50

ah, investor friendly agents and maybe it

18:52

might be a little bit different for

18:55

people who focus on traditional homebuyers of

18:57

sort of heard this line of thinking

18:59

were some people are like all investors

19:01

are now going to stop paying a

19:03

buyer's agent because they've done this before

19:05

and if you're going to do a

19:08

lot of transactions, maybe it behooves them

19:10

to learn how to do the transactions

19:12

and they're going to do it themselves.

19:14

I've heard that. I. Went

19:16

to Vassar. I'd have no interest in becoming

19:19

a real estate agent and I will always

19:21

your refuse a real estate agents but I

19:23

hear sort of these contradictory. Ideas.

19:25

I'm just curious if you think

19:27

that investors are working with. investors

19:30

may be. Fair differently as

19:32

an agent in the future. Yeah.

19:34

I got I'm I'm mostly work

19:36

with Arm Investors and. I.

19:38

Mean. He. Knows he can't just put

19:40

him on one block. it as. You.

19:43

Know what kind of and bus or they are cause there's

19:45

a lot of investors who. Know. How

19:47

full time jobs and. They. Really

19:49

don't know much about construction in

19:51

distress property so they have a

19:53

we rely on me. Who. Was

19:55

also have a general contractor. Back.

19:58

In a day to actually look at a distrust. and

20:00

go, hey, foundation's gone, you don't

20:02

want this one. And look at another one,

20:04

go, hey, it's just cosmetic, 20 grand,

20:07

you're going to gain 50k equity.

20:09

So I think working with those

20:11

type of investors, they're still going to

20:13

see our value. And they're going

20:15

to want to work with a buying agent because we're

20:18

bringing value in and they don't have time to go

20:20

look at 30, 40

20:22

deals. They just want you to bring them

20:24

the good deal that makes sense for

20:26

their situation. So no, I think

20:28

investors are still going to

20:30

want to work with buying agents. And I mean, I've

20:33

had multiple situations where

20:37

listing agents were changing leases or

20:39

updating leases that were under

20:41

market. And I found it during the closing

20:44

process, stuff like that. And so we

20:46

always have to keep what

20:50

they want part of what we're doing. And

20:52

I think that's the importance of

20:55

buyer agents. Well said, Avery, did you want

20:57

to jump in? Yes. Yes. So

20:59

what I wanted to clarify is that

21:01

there's always going to be those Fisbo

21:03

type people out there that are doing

21:05

for sale by owners or the type

21:08

of people who are going direct to

21:10

listing agents and aren't using buyers agents.

21:12

Like that's, you've never had to use

21:14

a buyer's agent. It's not like all of a sudden you

21:16

don't have to use one. But an example that I want

21:18

to give is we had

21:21

a very, very large hedge fund that

21:23

if I name it, everybody would recognize

21:25

it, client listing client earlier this

21:27

year that they bought a couple of years

21:29

ago. And they're going to sell quite a

21:32

bit of their portfolio. And they went direct

21:34

to listing agents, because you know, they've got

21:36

data that none of us could ever hope

21:38

to even see they got unlimited money and

21:40

limited access to data. And

21:42

they bought several short term rentals in a few

21:44

of our markets. And what happened was,

21:47

there were things that needed to be

21:49

disclosed about these properties, the septic system

21:52

specifically, where the listing

21:54

agent on these was from out of

21:56

town and did not properly disclose that

21:58

these five bedroom properties of them

22:00

were on one bedroom septic. Well, in

22:02

that market, you have to list a

22:04

property according to the number of bedrooms

22:06

the septic is rated for, which is

22:09

one. But they were both listed as

22:11

five bedroom properties. They bought these properties.

22:14

And when they came to list them with us, we

22:16

had to unfortunately let them know like,

22:18

Hey, guys, you don't have to

22:20

five bedrooms, you've got to one bedrooms that we now

22:22

have to list as one bedrooms, you bought them as

22:25

five bedrooms. And of course, I

22:28

didn't would not say this to them. But like, any

22:30

good buyer's agent in the market would have known

22:33

like, Hey, we need to check this out, this

22:35

needs to be disclosed. Because now

22:37

they're in a bad situation. And that a

22:39

couple with us a few other things, they're

22:41

going to be down about a million dollars

22:43

across this portfolio because of these

22:46

very data driven decisions, that they

22:48

didn't have that qualitative information of

22:50

a local expert to tell them,

22:52

hey, we don't need to buy this,

22:54

or you know, maybe we need to look elsewhere. So the people

22:58

that aren't using agents are just not going to

23:00

use agents, those people have always existed, but the

23:02

value of using one to help you not make

23:04

those million dollar mistakes that a Wall

23:07

Street fund that has, you know, like I

23:09

said, access to everything we could never dream

23:11

of having for making million dollar

23:13

mistakes. So I think another thing to think

23:15

about when investors, you

23:17

know, in the conversation of having investors

23:19

use buyers agents, sometimes investors don't see

23:21

things in the eyes of the buyer,

23:23

they're going to just be seeing things strictly as

23:26

numbers, they're going to be seeing, you know, they

23:28

don't see what someone is going to want to

23:30

appreciate in a home, what the neighborhood

23:32

is really like, they're just coming at it with the

23:34

numbers and how they're going to make out afterwards. And

23:36

having a buyer's agent that can understand what a

23:39

consumer actually wants, and having those viewpoints is

23:41

really valuable that sometimes they don't have some

23:43

of them have that they're really, really good,

23:45

they might not need it need agents, as

23:47

they were saying, but there are going to

23:49

be some that do want someone's input and

23:51

are going to want that expertise that they

23:53

might not always think about or have just having an

23:55

extra set of eyes is going to be very helpful for

23:57

them. Craig, I'd like to get your your take on this.

24:00

investor thing. Do you think that

24:02

sort of differentiating yourself as

24:04

an investor focused, an investor friendly

24:07

agent is going to change

24:09

the way you navigate this upcoming

24:11

shift? Yeah. So I think

24:14

it's great to focus on investors. But

24:16

I think like what one thing that I've kind of

24:19

been thinking about even the last couple of years as

24:21

just the market has changed, not even just with this

24:23

whole NAR settlement, is that I think

24:25

it's silly to just have one kind

24:27

of customer like, right? Because then if

24:30

the investors go away for some reason in your

24:32

market, now you're totally severed. You don't have anything

24:34

else. So we've been pivoting as well, getting more

24:36

into the residential space as well. Of course, we've

24:38

still got our investor arm, but we're doing a

24:40

lot more with just traditional people buying

24:42

homes and stuff like that. And so one thing I

24:44

wanted to add to kind of the previous conversation was,

24:48

there's a reason why there are people out there that

24:51

are full-time investors and full-time, like

24:53

a full-time investors that aren't agents and

24:55

full-time agents that aren't investors. They're two

24:57

completely different things. And

25:00

to think that one person can do the other as

25:02

well as it's like saying an electrician

25:04

can do the same job as a plumber, right?

25:06

Like they both know how to work on houses, but

25:09

they're two totally different things. And so I

25:12

think that, you know, you might see some people

25:14

try to do each, but like Avery just

25:16

brilliantly pointed out, they might catch

25:18

themselves with some massive losses by not having

25:20

a trusted professional doing the correct side of

25:23

the transaction. Okay, we have to take one

25:25

more short break, but we'll be right back.

25:27

Stick around. Trying

25:33

to run your business all by yourself? It's

25:35

too hard to hire. I don't have the

25:37

time, you say. What if I told you

25:40

that all you needed was Indeed? Indeed is

25:42

your matching and hiring platform with over 350

25:44

million global monthly visitors, according to Indeed data,

25:46

and a matching engine that helps you find

25:49

quality candidates fast. Ditch the busy work. Use

25:51

Indeed for scheduling, screening and messaging so you

25:53

can connect with candidates faster. And Indeed doesn't

25:56

just help you hire faster. 93% of employers

25:58

agree. Indeed

26:00

delivers the highest quality matches compared to

26:02

other job sites according to a recent

26:04

Indeed survey. Leveraging over 140 million

26:07

qualifications and preferences every day, Indeed's matching

26:09

engine is constantly learning from your preferences,

26:11

so the more you use Indeed, the

26:14

better it gets. Join more than 3.5 million

26:17

businesses worldwide that use Indeed to hire great

26:19

talent fast, and listeners of the show will

26:21

get a $75 sponsored job credit to

26:25

get your job's more visibility

26:27

at indeed.com/bigger pockets. Just

26:29

go to indeed.com/bigger pockets right now

26:31

and support our show by saying

26:34

you heard about Indeed on this

26:36

podcast. Terms and conditions apply. indeed.com/bigger

26:38

pockets. Need to hire? You need?

26:40

Indeed. Whether you need

26:42

to buy or sell, or you're just obsessed

26:45

with looking at homes for sale, Redfin's got

26:47

you covered. Redfin updates their listings every two

26:49

minutes to help you see new homes first.

26:51

And they give you personalized recommendations based on

26:53

the homes you like, so you can find

26:55

a home that's just right for you whether

26:58

that's a cabin, a craftsman, or a castle.

27:00

With the top rated Redfin app, you can

27:02

favorite homes, share listings with others, and schedule

27:04

tours even on the same day with a

27:06

local Redfin agent who can help guide you

27:08

through the whole home buying process. And if

27:10

you're looking to sell, Redfin agents have

27:13

the experience to help you get the best

27:15

price possible for your home. That's because they

27:17

sell twice as many homes as other agents.

27:19

With a listing fee as low as 1%,

27:21

Redfin's fees are half of what others often

27:23

charge, which means you'll have more money to

27:25

put towards what matters most to you, like

27:27

your next home. In fact, last year, Redfin

27:29

saved home sellers $127 million. No matter where

27:31

you are in your real

27:35

estate journey, Redfin can help. Download the Redfin

27:37

app to get started today. Remember

27:39

When you had to pay to get

27:42

a lead phone number? It was like

27:44

the Dark Ages until Deal Machine Made

27:46

skip tracing a thing of the past.

27:48

Now With your Deal Machine plan, you'll

27:50

get unlimited access to phone numbers and

27:53

contact information for no extra cost. That's

27:55

right, get high quality, reliable information trusted

27:57

by leading financial institutions, all for you.

28:00

We comply with the Federal do Not

28:02

Call list explore over a hundred and

28:04

fifty data points including age, gender, marital

28:07

status, occupation, and a ton more. Trust

28:09

me, this is the data you need

28:11

for off market deals with new filters,

28:14

people flags in color coded phone

28:16

numbers. Lead management just got a on

28:18

easier ready to step up you're investing

28:20

gang. Sign up for a deal. Machine

28:23

planted day and game. Immediate access to

28:25

this unlimited treasure trove of contact information

28:27

and phone numbers. Just had to

28:29

deal. machine.com/bp transform your lead

28:32

generation and deal making strategies

28:34

with deal missing. Sign up

28:36

today and start exploring the

28:39

unlimited possibilities at Deal machine.com/bp.

28:42

He. First talk about it before. High.

28:44

Interest rates are crushing real estate investors

28:47

leaving even some of the best investors

28:49

in need of funding now. But with

28:51

today's liquidity crisis. Who. Can sell

28:53

the demand with Fund Rise

28:55

America's largest direct investor alternative Asset

28:58

Manager you have the opportunity

29:00

to. Been. To

29:18

date, Fundrise has completed more than $500 million worth

29:20

of private credit deals dollars worth of credit

29:23

deal with with an average net interest

29:25

of 10.8%, and they've already amassed a

29:27

pipeline worth more than $300 million. hundred

29:29

million dollars. Don't sit on the

29:31

sidelines. You can take advantage of this

29:33

unique window of opportunity while it lasts with

29:36

Fundrise's new private credit strategy. strategy. Ready

29:38

to start? Go to fundrise.com/pockets

29:40

to learn more. That's F-U-N-D-R-I-S-E

29:45

dot com slash pockets. This is

29:47

a paid endorsement for Fundrise. Past

29:49

performance is not indicative of future results.

29:54

Of the back to beg your pockets. Let's get

29:56

back into our conversation. So. mike

29:59

let's let's start with you I'd like

30:01

to turn the conversation here a little

30:03

more towards advice. So Mike, if there

30:05

is an agent out there who's maybe

30:07

newer or not is feeling

30:10

uncomfortable, uncertain about the upcoming changes in

30:12

the industry, what advice would you give

30:14

them? What should people be thinking about

30:16

and doing right now? I

30:18

think just transparency is going to be

30:20

super important upfront and

30:22

telling your clients or potential clients,

30:24

Hey, there's this, you know,

30:27

issue going on right now, things are

30:29

kind of pretty negotiable right now. Um,

30:31

and just kind of being upfront about what

30:34

the options are, what the

30:36

benefits of those options are. Um, you

30:38

know, as we talked about before, yeah,

30:40

you could not pay a buyer's agent,

30:42

but who's going to come see your

30:44

house if you're not paying them. So,

30:47

you know, go over those options, um, kind

30:49

of let them decide. And,

30:51

um, I think protecting yourself too,

30:53

with the contracts that you have,

30:56

um, with minimums, you know, saying, Hey,

30:58

if someone, you know, the buyer agent

31:00

or the seller agent doesn't want to pay us, you

31:03

know, I have to charge you at least

31:05

four grand or whatever for my time of

31:08

driving around and helping you assess

31:10

these properties, et cetera. Um, so

31:12

I think just transparency and trying to protect

31:14

yourself as best as possible. That's

31:17

great advice. Avery, same question. How would

31:19

you counsel an agent right now? So

31:22

what my advice would be just to chill

31:24

out and wait and see. The

31:27

real estate industry is incredibly slow moving. Wait

31:29

to kind of see what happens. And we

31:31

had a really perfectly timed

31:33

thing happen yesterday and today, right?

31:35

Just in time to talk about

31:37

this on the podcast. So we

31:40

on the buyer side had our first

31:43

buyer who wanted to buy a property, make an offer on

31:45

a property that was offering 0%, uh, to a buyer's agent.

31:49

And so our agent let the buyer

31:51

know they went to the seller, to

31:53

the listing agent said, Hey guys, we want to make

31:55

an offer. You guys willing to pay a buyer's agent?

31:58

They said, you know, just submit the offer. So we

32:00

put everything in and said, okay, you know, you guys

32:02

are going to pay the buyer's agent X amount. The

32:04

seller said, I'm not paying a buyer's agent period. Like

32:07

I'm not paying for that. We'll let the buyer pay for that. So

32:09

we go back to the buyer and we said, Hey, you know what?

32:12

Seller doesn't want to pay. So

32:14

we're going to have to figure out, you know, how, what

32:17

do you, how do you guys want to move forward with? We

32:20

can't work for free. So if you guys

32:22

want to move forward with this deal without us, you're welcome

32:24

to do that. Or we can figure out

32:26

a way for, you know, you guys to pay the buyer's

32:28

agent fee, whatever that is, we'll work it out. Or

32:31

you know, what do you want to do?

32:33

And the buyer said, I don't want to buy this

32:35

house, but we've been working with you guys for a

32:38

year. Let's go find something that works where they are

32:40

offering one. So we said, wow, okay, we'll

32:42

go find you another one. Today that

32:44

same seller called back and said, Hey, actually

32:46

we will pay you submit the offer because

32:48

we weren't going to offer at all. So

32:50

I think that, you know, that kind of

32:52

illustrates the point of like, if

32:55

you just really, really want, there's going to be

32:57

those people regardless. The people who are

33:00

going to go direct to a listing agent who don't want to

33:02

use a buyer's agent. Those people have been out there forever and

33:04

they do it that way. And then there are

33:06

also the for sale by owner people who don't

33:08

want to pay an agent at all that have been listing

33:10

that way for decades. So nothing

33:12

is really changing that much except the

33:15

conversation that has to be had around

33:17

it. Well, thank you for sharing that

33:19

story. That is that's super interesting. I was wondering

33:21

how quickly this was going to start happening. It

33:23

sounds like these kinds of things are

33:25

already happening, but maybe it's

33:27

just this like temporary turmoil here. And,

33:29

you know, it sounds like the seller

33:32

and their agent sort of figured this

33:34

out and we're able to find

33:36

something agreeable in just a couple of days. I

33:38

just wanted to add something on that on what what to

33:40

be saying to either new agents or just people that are,

33:42

you know, worried about what's going to happen next, whether

33:45

or not this goes through. I think the

33:47

best thing is to just take this as

33:49

an opportunity to just improve yourself now just

33:52

to be a better buyer's agent now and

33:54

really just understand the entire process and start

33:56

educating people today. Just use it no matter

33:58

what happens as an opportunity. to just

34:00

become better now. That's

34:02

such a good point too, because buyers are

34:05

probably also wondering about what's happening. And as

34:07

Mike said, and as you said, Julia, like

34:09

just being transparent and helping them understand and

34:11

show that you have nothing to hide and

34:14

you're trying to navigate through the situation with

34:16

them, I'm sure we'll build a lot of

34:18

rapport and trust with your clients. Let's

34:20

turn to the investor side of things. Craig,

34:23

if you were an investor who's trying to

34:25

figure out how to navigate this situation, is

34:27

there anything as, if you

34:29

were buying a new house, is there

34:31

anything you would be doing differently or

34:33

questions you would be asking your agent

34:36

right now? I think this just really

34:38

emphasizes the importance of using a good

34:41

agent, because effectively now the

34:43

buyer, the buyer always paid for it, but

34:45

now everyone knows that it's negotiable, so it seems a

34:47

little bit more seriously that the buyer is paying for

34:49

it. And so I think you need to ask just

34:52

some serious questions about, hey

34:54

agent, do you have any investments yourself?

34:57

How can you help me? Do you have contractors? Do you have

34:59

all of the things that you're looking for an investor friendly agent?

35:01

Like you've just got to make sure to ask the

35:04

appropriate questions to make sure that you're getting the

35:06

best value for the agent. I

35:08

don't think you can use your uncle anymore just because

35:10

he's your uncle. And I

35:12

think that's going to be really the biggest thing. I

35:14

was just going to add to that. And I think,

35:16

Craig, it's important that yeah, you do have a realtor

35:19

who has the experience of houses that you're

35:21

trying to buy. I mean, there's

35:23

so many times I've run into realtors who are

35:25

selling houses. They don't even own a house. I

35:28

call them real estate agent posers. I mean, how

35:30

are you going to sell houses to people when

35:32

you don't even have one yourself? And not to

35:34

try to get on people who are not in

35:36

a good situation. But if you're

35:38

in this profession and especially if you're working with

35:40

investors, you should have an

35:42

investment portfolio to work with those. I do,

35:45

so I can say, hey, this is

35:47

how an Airbnb property works.

35:49

This is how a short term or long term

35:51

rental property. This is how a multi-unit works. And

35:54

that's what I think makes me a good agent for those. types

36:00

of clients. And so

36:03

I think finding those types of realtors

36:05

is going to be really important

36:07

for investors moving forward. That's great

36:09

advice. And as someone who's not an agent, me,

36:12

but has interviewed dozens and dozens of

36:14

agent, it is so obvious.

36:17

Like when you meet with an agent, who

36:20

knows what they're talking about and has worked

36:22

with investors before. And it and

36:24

ones who really are just trying to

36:26

sell you on the home buyer, dream

36:29

home kind of thing. And I think

36:31

the more that you can talk about

36:33

numbers or talk about your own personal

36:35

experience, the good and the bad. Like

36:37

I personally love that when agents tell

36:39

me, oh, I had this bad experience

36:41

or, you know, I used to

36:43

recommend this contractor, but it didn't work out. It's

36:45

like, that's just the business. That's just how

36:48

it works. And the more transparent you can

36:50

be and more you can show

36:52

that you understand the things that

36:55

real estate investors are thinking about, the

36:57

better you're going to be. Before we

36:59

go, Avery or Juliette, do either of

37:01

you have any thoughts or advice that

37:03

you want to give to investors? I

37:06

would say, you know, to investors, just keep

37:09

in mind the value that some of these

37:11

agents are really bringing to you. And if there's some that are

37:13

not bringing value to you, you know, really kind of

37:15

interview others who can really help you through the

37:17

process, whether it's finding off market deals or negotiating

37:19

really strongly for you, or when

37:21

it comes to the sell side, really representing

37:24

you very well and being able to find

37:26

a great buyer's agent and compensating that buyer's

37:28

agent appropriately. It's going to

37:30

be a really good time to just focus

37:32

on who can serve you best and really

37:34

just have a better interview process to what

37:36

Mike was saying earlier. I agree.

37:38

Just making sure that you're asking the right

37:40

questions of every agent and not just going

37:43

with the first agent that slides into your

37:45

DMs because you went on a Facebook group

37:47

for the market you want to buy in

37:49

and said, I'm looking for an agent. Make

37:52

sure that you interview everyone and ask the

37:54

right questions to make sure that they are

37:56

the best value, the best person to do

37:58

the job for you. I think. I think the process

38:00

might slow down a little bit. I think before

38:03

you could hop on bigger pockets, get an investor

38:05

from the agent, go see a house that afternoon

38:07

and put under contract. Now

38:09

the buyer's agent, and just to let all the buyers

38:11

know, is that it's gonna probably be a little bit

38:13

more like, hey, there is going to be a buyer's

38:15

consultation. They are gonna actually show you the value that

38:17

they provide so that you will then

38:20

sign an exclusive right to buy

38:22

and commit to that person before going

38:24

to see that house. And so I

38:26

think those days might be past us where you

38:28

can get into houses in 30

38:31

seconds. Well, that sounds like another maybe

38:33

good side effect, silver lining thing here. That

38:36

like if it forces you to really talk,

38:39

interview your agent and pick the best

38:41

one, that's probably best for agents and

38:43

investors over the long run. Should

38:46

have been doing that anyway. Yes.

38:49

Definitely should have been doing that anyway. But if

38:51

this is a reminder and will force people to

38:53

do it, maybe it's just the kick in the

38:55

butt some people need. All

38:58

right, well Avery, Mike, Juliet, Craig, thank

39:00

you all so much for being here.

39:02

We really appreciate you sharing your insights,

39:04

your expertise and this somewhat confusing but

39:06

interesting time in the real estate investing

39:08

industry. We hope to have you all

39:10

back sometime soon so we can hear

39:12

about how things actually play out over

39:14

the next couple of months. Awesome, thanks

39:17

a lot. Thanks. Thank you.

39:19

Thanks so much, Dave. Good to see you. Thanks

39:21

again to the whole crew that was

39:23

here for sharing their insights and information

39:25

here. I was genuinely surprised about how

39:27

calm everyone was because if you go

39:29

on social media or anywhere really, right

39:31

now you see these headlines that are

39:34

like everything's going to change and I

39:36

have to admit there have been times

39:38

where I've thought that this is going

39:40

to be a huge, pretty monumental shift

39:42

in real estate in the whole real

39:44

estate industry. And while we don't

39:46

really know what's going to happen, we're gonna have

39:48

to see how things played out, I found the

39:50

conversation that we just had a

39:52

bit reassuring to hear that real

39:55

estate agents are still finding ways

39:57

to add value and to be

39:59

beneficial to... transactions for the people that

40:01

they work with and I just generally agree

40:03

with this sentiment that a lot of them

40:05

shared which is that If

40:07

you're good at what you do And if you

40:09

pursue excellence and you add value that

40:11

there's always gonna be a place for

40:13

you even you know That's true in

40:15

the real estate industry. It's true as

40:17

an agent. It's true in almost any

40:19

industry So I really appreciated that input

40:21

from all of our guests here today

40:23

and hope that it's true for real

40:25

estate agents So I'll leave you all

40:27

with that always try to find ways

40:29

to add value whether you're an investor

40:31

an agent or anything else And

40:34

if you do want to meet an investor friendly

40:36

agent like we talked about today You

40:38

can always do that for free at bigger

40:40

pockets calm slash agent finder Just put in

40:42

a little information about yourself and you'll get

40:44

matched with an investor friendly agent who can

40:46

help you with your next Deal for

40:49

bigger pockets. I'm Dave Meyer. Thanks for listening

40:57

You