0:00

This is the Bigger Pockets Podcast Show 931.

0:04

What's going on everyone? This is David Green,

0:06

your host of the Bigger Pockets Trail State

0:09

Podcast, joined today by my good buddies, Dave

0:11

Meyer and Rob Abasola. Excited to be here

0:13

because many of our listeners have been

0:15

asking us this one question that we're

0:18

gonna dive into today. They've

0:20

been wondering how the three of us

0:22

would start to invest if we were

0:24

in their shoes. So that is what

0:27

we're gonna do today. We're basically, the

0:29

three of us are gonna rewind to

0:31

square one, pretend that we do not

0:34

have successful real estate portfolios and apply

0:36

our current knowledge to the average situation

0:38

and condition that Americans find themselves in

0:40

today. Yeah, we're gonna be doing

0:43

this with some pretty stringent criteria here. And we're

0:45

gonna be starting from scratch on this episode, much

0:47

like the board game life. So let's get into

0:49

it. All right, to start the show, we all

0:52

are going to be on the same page in

0:54

the same position as aspiring real

0:56

estate investors. So let me set the scene for

0:58

everyone. We will have a salary of

1:00

$60,000 a year, which is

1:02

the average salary in the United States. We will have

1:04

$10,000 in our savings account, no

1:07

debt, but a car payment of $400 a month. We

1:10

will be living with a partner and splitting rent

1:12

with them. The rent is 1500, so

1:14

we'll each be paying 750, no kids. And

1:18

we live in a tertiary market outside

1:20

of a major Metro with strong market

1:22

fundamentals, often called an emerging market. The

1:25

median home price in this market is $300,000. And

1:29

our job is salaried, so there is

1:31

no overtime opportunities. We have a hybrid

1:33

remote schedule, so we work in the

1:35

office sometimes and from home sometimes.

1:39

Rob, I know you hate starting off, so I'm gonna start

1:41

with you. What's the first thing you're gonna do? I

1:44

know what you are gonna say, so I'm gonna

1:46

change my answer here. And I'm gonna

1:48

say $10,000, in my opinion, doesn't

1:51

really buy you much. I think

1:54

there's several ways that you can get started in the world

1:56

of real estate. But I think if

1:58

that's all the padding you have. then

2:00

getting into real estate out the gate might

2:02

be a little bit risky because there's a

2:04

little thing called capex and maintenance that could

2:06

destroy your life if all you

2:09

had was $10,000 to sink into an investment. So

2:11

yeah I think if you're coming into this with

2:13

$10,000 you might need to fortify the foundation if

2:15

you will. So I think the best way to

2:17

really invest your $10,000 is education and I don't

2:22

necessarily mean high ticket education. I don't think you

2:24

need to go and enroll in a big course

2:26

or anything like that. What I mean by this

2:28

is I want you to go out and start

2:30

networking peer-to-peer and getting education that way and

2:32

the best way to do that there's a few

2:35

ways you can sign up for a BP

2:37

Pro membership. Really really cheap that

2:39

gets you access to our website but even the

2:41

free version of that you get free access to

2:43

forums where you can literally communicate with thousands of

2:45

investors every single day. The second tier to this

2:47

if you do want to start investing a little

2:49

bit of money is you can you

2:52

know $10,000 gets you a

2:54

couple tickets to some conferences, plane tickets,

2:56

hotels. I think that's gonna be the

2:58

best way to invest $10,000 is going around and going to

3:02

different real estate conferences where you can

3:04

gather ideas and meet people and then

3:06

we can work on actually executing once

3:08

we have a base education on

3:10

what it is we actually are interested in doing.

3:12

Alright Dave I'm gonna move to

3:15

you shortly. Rob before we do

3:17

I have one question for you. Are you

3:19

cutting out the guac at Chipotle in preparation

3:21

for your investing future? Well hey every little

3:23

bit counts and that's $3 so

3:25

absolutely. Some people talk about it some people be

3:27

about it. Rob is cutting out the guac. This

3:29

is a serious man he loves real estate. Hey

3:32

don't walk about it be about it you know

3:34

what I mean? Dave moving to you. I'm not

3:36

gonna ask you about sandwiches because I don't want

3:38

you to cry here on a podcast but I

3:40

am gonna ask you what's the first step that

3:42

you would take towards investing? So

3:44

the first thing I would do

3:46

is try and figure out what

3:49

type of deal I want to do

3:51

first. Is it a house hack? Is

3:53

it a short-term rental? And sort of

3:55

get an idea of what that's going

3:57

to cost. So you would start with

3:59

strategies. I would start with

4:01

strategy. And the reason I would do that

4:03

is because you need to assess sort of

4:05

how close or far away you are from

4:08

being able to purchase property. And as Rob said,

4:11

10,000 bucks is probably not going

4:13

to get you that far, particularly in this

4:15

type of market. So if you

4:17

were to buy the medium price home in this market

4:19

of $300,000, that putting 5% down, you

4:24

would need at least $15,000 just for the down payment. And

4:28

then you would probably need another $5,000 for

4:31

closing costs. And then on top of

4:33

that, you probably need at least another

4:35

five grand for CapEx and repairs like

4:37

Rob mentioned. So I think

4:40

that a little exercise is helpful

4:42

and just seeing that right now,

4:44

probably not super realistic for me

4:46

in these conditions to buy a

4:48

property on my own. So

4:50

then I'm starting to think there's two different things that

4:53

I could do. I can either figure out

4:55

a way to save up another, let's

4:57

say $15,000. That

5:00

might be easy for you, that might not.

5:02

It's hard to say given your situation. Or

5:05

maybe the better option that I would

5:07

probably do is try and partner with

5:10

someone, whether that's on a house hack

5:13

or on a single family

5:15

rental or even on a flip,

5:17

depending on your strategy, I would

5:19

look to find an experienced investor

5:21

where I can contribute some equity,

5:23

maybe not even all 10,000, but

5:26

maybe I can just put a little bit into

5:28

this deal. Let's say I'll put five grand into

5:30

it and I'm gonna sort of

5:32

shadow the experienced investor and learn as much

5:35

as I can from that investor, hopefully make

5:37

a little bit of money on it. But

5:39

really, to Rob's point,

5:41

work on my education while I have probably

5:43

a small piece, but at least I'm in

5:45

a deal a little bit. I love that.

5:48

Let me just add to that because oftentimes

5:50

the answer is like, hey, go shadow someone

5:52

and make them work by training you. In

5:55

your scenario, you're saying, hey, I'll put a little bit

5:57

of my money into this deal, which is pretty much

5:59

everything. for you in this scenario, that's skin

6:01

in the game, the stakes are high and so I

6:03

think it's really, it shows

6:05

a lot of good faith to be willing to

6:07

do that if you're going to go and partner

6:10

with someone. All right, my first step would be

6:12

to get my financial house in order. So

6:14

I have a different take on real estate than some people.

6:17

Like the Brandon Turner's of the world tend to say, you

6:19

can't buy real estate, be creative, figure out a way to

6:21

buy it. And for some people that works. When

6:24

I talk to the wealthy investors that I've met, the

6:26

successful ones, they all have one thing in common and

6:28

it's capital. It takes money to

6:30

invest in real estate and real estate

6:32

specifically requires more money than other investments

6:35

do. Like your Apple stock doesn't have

6:37

a roof that needs to be replaced

6:39

and if it does, it doesn't come

6:41

from you as the investor. It

6:43

comes from the funds of the company and your

6:45

dividends would just be less. But when you own

6:47

the asset completely yourself, like you mentioned earlier, you're

6:49

going to be having to replace those pipes when

6:51

there's a leak or that roof if there's a

6:53

problem or that air conditioner when

6:55

it goes out. So you really need to be

6:57

in a financially solid position before you get super

6:59

deep into real estate investing. And I know that

7:01

everyone doesn't love hearing it but it's the truth

7:03

and that's what we bring to you here. So

7:06

the first thing that I'm going to do is get

7:08

my financial house in order. I'm going to start with

7:10

a budget. We're going to come up with a budget

7:12

of what we're going to spend on food, gas, energy,

7:14

entertainment, everything. We're going to have a plan and

7:16

then I'm going to download apps like Rocket Money.

7:19

I believe Mint was one that was available before.

7:21

I don't know if that one's still around. But

7:23

it's actually going to tell us how much money

7:25

we are spending as a couple because in this

7:27

case we're with a partner on our

7:30

credit cards and we're going to make sure that

7:32

we're hitting that budget. So you earn the right

7:34

to get into real estate investing which we all

7:36

like by starting by controlling your own expenses. And

7:38

then I'm going to start looking for a job

7:40

that pays more or opportunities at this job where

7:42

I can make more. So if my boss says,

7:44

hey, this is all we got for you, there's

7:46

nothing more, great. I got another 16

7:48

hours in a day. I'm going to go pick up

7:50

a shift waiting tables. I'm going to go get my

7:52

real estate license. I'm going to go look for an

7:54

investor that's hiring someone to help with work. I'm

7:56

going to do something to be financially productive during

7:59

those days. down times because we

8:01

don't have kids right now to

8:03

make more money and save more

8:05

money that will get that $10,000

8:07

that I have in the bank

8:09

doubled and tripled much faster, which

8:11

case I'll feel more comfortable investing.

8:13

Yeah, I think that I like

8:15

that advice, David, and generally agree

8:17

that trying to improve your financial

8:19

situation won't just help with

8:21

your first deal, but it's going to

8:23

pay dividends over the course of your

8:25

investing career. We were

8:27

on a show, the three of us recently, and we were

8:29

joking about how because I have a

8:31

full-time job, I am the most lundable

8:34

out of the group. I think that

8:36

is something that people should consider is

8:38

that if you're able to increase your

8:40

salary or bring in just

8:42

some more money that a lender can look

8:44

at, that it's going to help you throughout

8:47

your entire investing career and it will set

8:49

you up even if that means taking a

8:51

little bit longer before you get that next

8:53

deal. With that said,

8:56

I guess, David, you're going

8:58

to build up your financial

9:00

fortress, if you will. What

9:02

would be your first investment once

9:05

you did that? Are you going straight into real estate? Are

9:07

you investing in equipment that might

9:09

help you start a side hustle? Is

9:11

that where you're getting at? You might

9:13

start something on the side here where you can make more

9:15

money. What's your next move? Well, my first

9:17

investment is going to be a race to a house hack.

9:19

If we're talking about a $300,000 median

9:22

home and I could find some even less than that,

9:25

I'm looking for the ugliest, biggest house that I

9:27

could possibly find. I want to get something that

9:29

already has four or five bedrooms, that has space

9:31

that I can add another bedroom to. This is

9:34

my first deal. I want something

9:36

that's been sitting on the market a while, terrible pictures,

9:38

maybe has a tenant in it so other people aren't

9:40

buying it. I'm going to get that realtor and

9:42

say, what do we got to do to get this house? Do I

9:44

have to wait for the seller to get the tenants kicked out?

9:47

Is there an open unit that I can use

9:49

a primary residence loan to buy it and then

9:52

replace the tenant? Or is there something

9:54

I can buy and rent by the room? When

9:56

you're trying to get a foothold in real estate, rent by the

9:58

room is usually the first step in the easy way. a

10:00

step to do. It's not sexy, which

10:02

is why nobody likes to do it because no one

10:04

likes roommates. That's my objection to hear all the time.

10:06

Well, I don't like roommates. I get it. I also

10:08

don't like being broke. So which of the don't likes

10:10

is worse? I'm going to deal with roommates for a

10:12

period of time. So I'm going to find a big

10:14

house, add some bedrooms to it, and

10:16

if the average priced home is $300,000, I can get

10:18

in with $9,000 down.

10:22

I actually have enough right now with 10 grand. I

10:24

just don't have enough to do it and feel comfortable

10:26

that I still have savings for life. So if I

10:29

can get to $15,000, $20,000 by

10:32

working extra shifts and saving more money, I'm just going to go in

10:34

there and I'm going to buy a house hack. I'm going to

10:37

live in a room with my partner and I'm going to rent

10:39

out the other four rooms or five rooms to

10:41

somebody else and I'm going to start living for free.

10:43

And now we're also going to be saving that $1,500

10:45

a month that we used to be spending on rent.

10:48

Cool. Yeah, that makes sense. House hack. I knew it. I

10:50

knew it. That's a good one. I think that is a

10:52

very, very strong answer solution to

10:54

anyone getting into it. I mean, I tell

10:56

everybody house hack should be everyone's first investment,

10:58

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11:00

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14:28

welcome back, investors. Dave Myer, Rob Abasolo,

14:30

and I are here walking through how

14:32

we would invest if we had to

14:34

start from scratch today. So let's

14:36

get back into it. Now, what's it you,

14:38

Dave? Yeah, it's so boring, I know, but

14:41

house hacking is just the right answer. And

14:43

I rarely give

14:45

that sort of definitive advice.

14:48

Most questions in real estate are like,

14:51

it depends, it depends on your strategy,

14:53

and blah, blah, blah. But I think,

14:55

honestly, house hacking is kind

14:57

of a no-brainer if you're getting

14:59

started, especially in the scenario that

15:02

we've created here, where it's just

15:04

you and a partner, you don't

15:06

have kids, you would greatly benefit

15:08

financially just from reducing your rent

15:10

expenses rather than having to cash

15:12

flow. And so there's a lot

15:14

of benefits to it. So I just, I

15:16

know that's boring, but we can end the podcast now.

15:19

Let's make it a little less boring, because

15:21

there's different flavors of house hacking. We typically

15:23

just say house hacking. House hacking is a

15:25

principle. It is not an

15:28

actual strategy, okay? You can do

15:30

like I said, rent by the room. That's not

15:32

a popular flavor. That's the broccoli flavor of house

15:34

hacking. Then you've got something there a little more

15:36

sexy. You buy a fourplex, you live in a

15:38

unit, you have your own, you rent out the

15:40

other three. That's a more enticing

15:42

flavor, but it's just harder to find that kind of

15:44

deal. You have to guacamole. Yeah, there you go. Add

15:46

a little bit of guac to it, right? You

15:49

have a basement that you live in and you

15:51

rent out the rooms upstairs or rent out the

15:54

house upstairs. You've got a house hacking

15:56

with a short-term rental component to it where you live

15:58

in an ADU and rent out the house. There's

16:00

different ways to do this and some are more

16:02

sexy than others. I'm starting off with the least

16:04

sexy one because that's the easiest way to get

16:06

my foot on the door. But we should point

16:08

that out that house hacking itself

16:11

is a very generalized term and there's lots

16:13

of different ways to make it

16:15

happen. I'd like to point out a

16:17

pre-house hacking because in this scenario, you're

16:19

probably living in some kind of apartment.

16:21

I actually don't really think you need to buy

16:23

a house to house hack. I think you could

16:25

go and rent an apartment and then

16:28

rent a room in that apartment. All

16:30

I really want from anyone that's

16:32

doing the house hacking thing is try to

16:34

get your monthly living expense as

16:36

close to zero as possible. If

16:39

you're like, well dang, I got $10,000, $9,000 of that is going to go

16:41

towards a $300,000 house for the down payments 3.5%. What

16:47

about maintenance that's still

16:49

going to kill you if your AC goes out that first

16:51

year? You're going to be in a really bad

16:53

spot. I'd even push people to

16:55

think before that and say, hey, can

16:57

I rent a two-bedroom apartment where my

17:00

roommate is covering a majority of that

17:02

rent? If you can get your

17:04

rent down just close to zero, I think that jump-starts

17:06

your real estate career because pretty much at that point,

17:08

you're saving your rent every single month

17:10

and that starts compounding pretty quickly too. There

17:13

you go. Great point there. You see how house

17:15

hacking is one of the only

17:17

real estate investing strategies that pairs with financial

17:19

independence, principles of building wealth

17:21

as opposed to just ease. I

17:24

bought a property, it makes a whole bunch of money,

17:26

and it's passive income and I don't have to do

17:28

anything and it just makes me rich while I go

17:30

do what I want. In today's market, it's definitely not

17:33

like that. As we're starting over with only $10,000 and

17:35

a $60,000 salary, we don't have the luxury of ease.

17:37

We're going to have to get our hands dirty here.

17:39

Rob, how are you going to get your hands dirty?

17:42

Well, there's a couple of things.

17:44

I think getting into this world of real estate

17:46

investing, especially with $10,000 because I don't want to

17:48

make it seem like it's nothing, but it really

17:50

is a risky place to be to put all

17:52

of it on the line. When

17:54

I'm looking in the world of real

17:56

estate investing, this is technically not real estate, what

17:59

I'm about to do. about to say it's a little

18:01

bit more hospitality but I do think it's a good

18:03

way to get your feet

18:05

wet as they say. They do say

18:07

that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, your toes, dip your toes in

18:09

the water. I mean your toes are on your foot David,

18:11

come on. So I would

18:13

probably push someone towards co-hosting and

18:16

co-hosting is basically property management. There's

18:18

a small difference here. Typically property

18:21

managers collect money on behalf of

18:23

the landlord and then they remit

18:25

it. So there's a lot of differences and

18:27

yeah, that gets a little bit more cumbersome with the

18:30

paperwork. But a co-host on

18:32

the short-term rental side is someone

18:34

who actually has the login info.

18:36

They actually have access to a

18:38

landlord's property and they can list

18:40

that property on different OTAs, online

18:42

travel agencies like Airbnb, verbo.com,

18:44

booking.com and you can manage someone

18:47

else's short-term rental property and basically

18:49

give up your time. In exchange,

18:51

you can charge a percentage on

18:53

that monthly gross revenue that they're

18:55

bringing in and if they make $0 that

18:57

month, you make $0 that month. But

19:01

if they make $5,000 that month, let's say you're charging

19:03

20% management which is pretty standard,

19:05

you'd make $1,000 and that's super,

19:07

super, super low risk versus other

19:10

forms of the short-term rental side

19:12

like arbitrage where if you make

19:14

$0 one month but you're still gonna be on the

19:16

hook for your monthly rent. So for

19:18

me, I kind of like that idea because if you

19:20

can build up a co-hosting business which again is not

19:23

on the nose real estate, it's more

19:25

hospitality, you can build up a bank

19:27

account from there and eventually use that

19:29

to parlay into actually purchasing a short-term

19:31

rental property. Very nice. You're also

19:33

gonna get some experience in real estate that's gonna

19:35

gain some confidence. Dave, you see any, you wanna

19:37

poke any holes in that? No, I think it's

19:39

a great idea. People should

19:42

be looking for ways to both

19:44

invest in their

19:46

actual physical assets and in their

19:48

income potential. So I'll just add

19:50

one, something I actually did myself

19:53

was to achieve the

19:55

same outcome that Rob was just talking about

19:57

which is building up more assets with which

19:59

you can invest. I

20:01

personally, I think

20:03

like three or four years into

20:05

my investing career, decided to go

20:07

back to graduate school. I chose

20:09

a low cost state school with

20:11

in-state tuition. I invested probably about

20:13

10 grand, took on some

20:15

loans, but it was probably the best ROI I've ever

20:18

gotten on an investment in my life. It doesn't work

20:20

for everyone. It depends what field you're in, if you

20:22

like what you're doing. But if

20:24

you do like what you're doing, you

20:26

should consider investing in education that could

20:29

also increase your income potential. Now

20:31

you still need to learn a lot

20:33

about real estate at the same time,

20:36

but there are real big benefits to

20:38

getting a salary or a larger salary

20:40

and using that as sort of a

20:42

financial foundation from which

20:45

to invest so that you can order the

20:47

guacamole at Chipotle and also buy duplexes at

20:49

the same time. It's actually refreshing to hear

20:51

you say that because I do feel like

20:53

the popular thing in the real estate community

20:56

is like, don't go to

20:58

college, it's a scam. They charge you 60,000

21:00

and you're still paying it off. But it's

21:02

true, like the ROI on that is great.

21:04

It's led to you having a higher salary

21:06

which allows you to invest in more real

21:08

estate. Totally, and like we've talked about

21:10

college on a bunch of the

21:12

Bigger Pockets Money Show and it's not always worth

21:15

it. It really depends on the degree you're going

21:17

after, the school you pick. So, but I agree.

21:19

Like if you're in the right field and you

21:21

choose the right school, it can be great. If

21:24

you're in the wrong field and you choose the

21:26

wrong school, it could be terrible for your finances.

21:28

So you just have to be thoughtful about it.

21:30

Totally, totally. All right, Dave. So you've bought your

21:32

first property. We've all agreed it's gonna be

21:34

a house hack. Tell me what kind of house hack do

21:36

you think you got and what's your next step

21:38

from there? If I could pick, I

21:42

would look for, not the rent by the

21:44

room. I think it can really work, but

21:46

if you can find a duplex or

21:49

a triplex, it's gonna be less operational

21:51

intensity. Like it's just a little bit

21:54

easier, I think, to rent out multiple

21:56

units. I know that sounds different because

21:58

you have multiple tenants, but. you

22:00

have people living in separate spaces, I think

22:02

it's just a little bit easier. So

22:05

I would choose a duplex, a

22:07

triplex or a quadplex and

22:09

I would look for something that

22:12

has some sort of value add

22:14

upside and that is similar

22:16

to what David said where you might be

22:18

looking for something that is undervalued or

22:21

needs ideally if you could

22:23

find something that just needs a cosmetic

22:25

upgrade. That to me is

22:27

the perfect situation because those are skills

22:29

and those are upgrades that most people

22:32

can do themselves or learn to do

22:34

themselves. Anyone can learn to

22:36

paint, most people can learn to put

22:38

down luxury vinyl

22:40

plank or you know laminate floors

22:44

and that's how you can really start to

22:46

build some equity in the property and

22:49

the key and the reason you want to build

22:51

equity is because if you want to get to

22:53

that next deal and you're earning 60 grand

22:55

and not in your savings rate is hopefully positive

22:57

but not great, you're going to need to find

23:00

a way to build up your more cash to

23:02

get into your next deal and a good way

23:04

to do that is through value add or forced

23:06

appreciation, people call it different things but if you

23:08

could do that in your first house hack

23:10

then refinance in a few years, I think that's

23:13

sort of the one-two punch. You get more equity

23:15

in your first deal and a great house hack

23:17

and then it gives you sort of a springboard

23:19

to your second deal and hopefully subsequent ones after

23:21

that. I have a small variation on that and

23:24

I mean maybe it's I guess it could be

23:26

the same thing but yeah I

23:28

might consider just going right into the live and

23:30

flip which is kind of

23:32

what you're alluding to a little bit right Dave?

23:34

Yes, yeah very similar idea. Yeah and that's basically

23:36

like this again not everyone is going

23:39

to be willing to house hack like I

23:41

think typically if you have a spouse the spouse

23:43

may not be down and I totally get that

23:45

right and so for

23:47

me I would probably just as much

23:49

as I always have a lot of respect

23:51

for investors that rent and buy an investment

23:54

property versus buying their own home but

23:56

I do think that doing the live and

23:58

flip where you can force equity and

24:00

force appreciation is a really, really powerful

24:02

move because you can get into

24:04

that house super, super cheaply. And then

24:06

as soon as you're able to save up money, you're able to

24:09

put 3.5% down on the next house and

24:11

turn that house into a rental. It's just

24:13

a tried and true method. And

24:16

that's what I did for myself and using

24:18

those skills, the DIY skills, using my co-hosting

24:20

skills that I built up when I first

24:22

got started, that's how I was

24:24

able to really pitch investors and

24:26

people to actually invest in me whenever I

24:28

scaled up to the next property. So

24:31

Dave, you're looking at, hey, I got to

24:33

get some equity in, in addition to

24:35

keeping my housing expenses low. Yeah.

24:38

Otherwise you're going to be waiting a long time to

24:40

buy your second deal. I think if you could just

24:42

buy the house hack and hold on to it for

24:45

a while, that's actually what I did, but it's something

24:47

I regret because I sort of just bought it, took

24:49

the cash flow because I was young

24:51

and needed the money. And I was like, this is great. I'm

24:53

making a couple hundred bucks a month. And then a couple of

24:56

years later, I was like, man, if I had done some more

24:59

thinking and built some equity, I could have built

25:01

my portfolio a lot faster. So I think you

25:03

have to sort of strike the right balance there.

25:05

It's a really good point. I love that while

25:07

you are helping yourself right now by saving money,

25:09

you're also thinking at the same time, I'm going

25:11

to be thinking about the next one. And if

25:13

I can get equity coming from this property, that

25:16

could be the down payment and more for the

25:18

next property. And you also made a really good

25:20

point. That's another real estate principle worth repeating. Equity

25:23

is easier to build than cash flow. Cash flow is

25:26

very slow. It's very difficult and it's outside of your

25:28

control. Market rents are going to be what market

25:30

rents are. And oftentimes expenses are

25:32

outside of your control. Like, can any of

25:34

us prevent our insurance from doubling on our

25:36

properties or property taxes from going up? You

25:39

can't. But equity does tend to

25:41

be something you have more control over. You can add

25:43

additions to a property. You can improve its condition or

25:45

you can buy it at a good rate. So I

25:48

love that. That's how that snowball starts to get

25:50

built. The reason I like the live and flip

25:52

and why it works so well for me is

25:55

because the equity that we built up,

25:57

you know, what you're talking about here allowed me to

25:59

get a HELOC. a home equity line

26:01

of credit that I was then able to

26:03

use to build new construction properties, whether it

26:05

was my ADU or a tiny house, you

26:07

know, right outside the city. And

26:09

that really unlocked a lot of things for me too. So

26:12

it kind of gives you this HELOC funding

26:14

option for future projects that I think then

26:16

you can use to really attack the real

26:18

estate portfolio. All right, it

26:20

is time for one last quick break.

26:22

But when we come back, Rob walks

26:25

us through exactly how he pitched a

26:27

potential funding partner when he was getting

26:29

started and why that approach still works

26:31

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That's integradg.com to start

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investing today. Welcome

30:57

back to the Bigger Pockets Real Estate Podcast. Let's

30:59

pick up where we left off. So

31:02

what are you going to do for your next

31:04

option? You've got your first property, Rob. What kind

31:06

of property did you get? What's your next step?

31:08

Well, my next step here is I'm just trying

31:11

to build a little bit of experience and a

31:13

little bit of like know how in this space.

31:15

But 100% I mean, regardless, we started with $10,000.

31:20

So it's not like no matter how hard I work, it's

31:22

not like I'm getting to like $100,000

31:24

overnight, right? So what I'm trying to do

31:27

is just build my skills, build my experience

31:29

and my confidence to then go out and

31:31

find a partner that will then

31:33

fund the next rental property

31:35

that I buy. In my case, it's

31:37

a short term rental, but I mean, it could

31:39

be a long term rental. I think it gets

31:41

a little tough, right? Because when you're bringing in

31:44

private money partners, typically they're in it for the

31:46

cash flow. So I would go and I would

31:48

raise money from a private money partner and use

31:50

that to acquire my next short term rental. That

31:53

way I can get out of

31:55

the co hosting space and actually get into ownership

31:57

where I have all four benefits of real estate

31:59

ranging from cash flow, tax benefits, depreciation

32:01

and appreciation. Or debt pay down and appreciation, sorry.

32:03

So flesh that out for me a little bit

32:06

more. Like what kind of a split do you

32:08

think you're gonna offer your partner? Who are you

32:10

gonna look for? How are you gonna pitch it

32:12

to them? Okay, so you don't really have too

32:14

much of a leg to stand on because you

32:16

don't have a lot of experience in this scenario.

32:18

So here's the exact thing that I pitched that

32:20

I think is super fair. In

32:22

this point in my career, I regret it a little

32:24

bit, but I don't think I could have done it

32:26

any other way. So what I told partners going into

32:28

this was, I will

32:31

find it, I will run it, I will

32:33

manage it, as long as you fund it.

32:35

So you fund it, I find it, I

32:37

run it. That's kind of the arrangement.

32:40

And what I would say is, I'm

32:42

gonna do a 50-50 partnership on equity

32:45

and on cash flow on the entire

32:47

property. However, because

32:49

you're the one that's putting up all the

32:51

risk, I will take zero cash flow from

32:54

this deal until your investment is

32:56

paid back. Once your investment

32:58

is paid back, I will then start

33:01

taking distributions 50-50 with you.

33:04

I think that's a really fair deal. It kind

33:06

of keeps you broke for a little while. It

33:08

doesn't solve the cash flow problem, but it does

33:10

build a little bit of confidence and

33:12

it puts the onus on you to perform super

33:15

well for that investor because the better

33:17

you perform, the faster you'll get paid. That's a

33:19

great point. I love it. I

33:21

especially love that you're willing to take zero

33:23

cash flow. They basically get a preferred return

33:25

of 100% until they get paid back. That's

33:27

a tough deal to beat. Yeah. Well,

33:30

like I said, these days I'm like, well, should I

33:32

have done that? But it gave me my start and

33:34

it helped me format the types of structures that I

33:36

would go on to do. Well,

33:38

that's the scenario we're talking about getting started.

33:40

I think it's the perfect mentality, Robin. I

33:42

think it's a smart structure. And

33:44

honestly, if in your first deal, if you

33:47

just break even, you're probably gonna

33:49

be happy and learn something.

33:52

I know it's tempting and desirable

33:54

to have 100% ownership or something

33:56

or get all of the upside

33:58

in your first deal. But

34:00

if you're in this scenario where you only have $10,000 and

34:02

you aren't able to get a property

34:08

on your own and have full ownership, you need

34:10

to just be realistic with yourself and realize that

34:12

anything that's going to improve your financial situation is going

34:14

to help you in the long run, even if it's

34:16

not a home run or a grand slam right

34:18

off the bat. Yeah, I mean, the

34:20

more you do this, the more you partner with people, the

34:23

more of a rock star you can be and

34:25

actually have results, the easier it will be to

34:27

continue doing that with other people. So you start

34:29

building up references and rapport and if you can

34:31

treat one investor really, really right, it

34:34

kind of leads to more opportunities down the line too. I

34:36

think a lot of people get hung up on, well, that's

34:38

not fair. That's not fair to me. It

34:40

should be 50-50. Everyone has their own definition

34:42

of fairness. The best advice I offer there is

34:45

that market determines what's fair. What's

34:48

a fair price for your house? It's what the market's

34:50

willing to pay. The reality of life is that nothing

34:52

is actually ever going to be fair. When you're a

34:54

new person, you're going to give up a lot more

34:56

than an experienced person can and as you become an

34:59

experienced person, you may come back to that same person

35:01

you partnered with before with a deal that's better for

35:03

you and not as good for them, but that's your

35:05

value because if they say no, you can find somebody

35:07

else that would be willing to do that with you

35:09

once you've got three or four properties that you're working

35:11

on. Don't assume that when we're

35:13

starting from scratch here, the way we put

35:16

a deal together is the way we're always going to put that deal

35:18

together. It's going to evolve just like the price

35:20

of homes evolve, just like the rent that you

35:22

collect on a home evolves, just like your expenses

35:24

are going to evolve. It's always going to change

35:26

and so you're always asking yourself the same question,

35:28

well, what's market value right now? Let

35:30

me add one thing. It doesn't have to be because

35:33

some people might hear this and say, well, I really need

35:35

the money. I think there's other ways you can work

35:37

that out. You can say, hey, you get 75%,

35:39

you investor get 75% of the cash flow. I

35:43

get 25 and then once your investment is

35:45

paid back, we waterfall it, meaning we change

35:47

the splits to 50-50. I

35:49

think that part's always flexible. You just have to feel it out.

35:52

One of the biggest mistakes I ever made was

35:54

I didn't have that much experience. I

35:57

pitched my father-in-law's brother's.

35:59

That's my uncle-in-law. I

36:01

gave him horrible terms because I was like, alright, I

36:03

know what I'm doing. You get 20%

36:06

of the profits, I get 80%, and

36:08

then he was like, whoa, bud, you're nobody. You

36:10

don't have any experience. This is a horrible deal

36:12

for me. It really, I was

36:14

like, oh, okay, yeah. Maybe I need to learn how

36:17

to feel about investors a little bit more. I think

36:19

you'll know once you kind of get into those conversations

36:21

with partners. Rob, that's awesome. I

36:23

was just gonna say something similar to that. Like

36:26

David said, people want fair. Think about what

36:29

your partner wants. Is it fair for them

36:31

to get an equal deal with someone who

36:33

is inexperienced in real estate?

36:36

Kind of have to think about, like

36:39

as the partner, they can invest

36:41

that money in a lot of different

36:43

ways. They can invest it with you,

36:45

they can invest it with a more

36:47

experienced operator, they can invest it in

36:49

the stock market. And to be perfectly

36:52

candid, if it is your first deal,

36:54

you are by far the riskiest option

36:56

out there. So the only way to

36:58

attract an investor is to give them

37:00

sort of an unfair deal in their

37:02

favor to compensate for that risk. And

37:04

to David's point, that is market value.

37:06

Your market value when you are a

37:08

brand new investor is low. And

37:10

that's fine, that's just how it goes. But

37:13

you just kind of have to be realistic

37:15

about that. Totally, yeah, yeah, hey. I

37:17

was a risky boy. It would have worked

37:19

out, but I totally, that's 100% correct.

37:23

What about you, David? What would you do? What would

37:25

your plan be? Mine is what

37:27

I call the sneaky rental.

37:30

The sneaky rental is a strategy that I like

37:32

because it's covert and tactical. I'm just

37:34

kidding. Basically, it takes advantage of the

37:37

financing of real estate, which is one

37:39

of the most important parts. So the

37:41

difference between putting 20% down on a property or

37:44

25% down and 3% down

37:46

are astronomically different. I mean, you can

37:49

literally buy seven times as much real

37:51

estate putting 3% down instead of 20

37:53

to 25. That's a good way to put it.

37:55

Yeah. Right, so I'm gonna take advantage of

37:57

that, which means I have to buy a primary residence, Which

38:00

means I'm going to be buying a new house

38:02

every single year which means I'm always going to

38:04

be house hacking and I have no problem with

38:06

a boring, repeatable, predictable, systematic approach

38:08

to how I'm going to build wealth. I'm

38:10

going to buy that house, I'm going to

38:12

rent out the rooms. Next year

38:14

I'm going to do like Dave said, I'm going to try

38:16

to buy a triplex or a fourplex. If I can get

38:18

one, I'm going to get one. If I can't, I'm going

38:20

to buy another big house and I'm going to rent the

38:22

rooms out again. Now I've got two houses that I'm renting

38:25

rooms out on. I'm going to get some software that makes

38:27

that easier for me to do. I'm going to learn how

38:29

to be a landlord the old fashioned way and

38:31

handle this stuff myself. Then next

38:33

year I'm going to do the same thing again. You

38:35

could get conventional loans with 3% down which are usually

38:37

better than FHA options at 3.5% down

38:39

because on an FHA loan you're going to pay

38:42

the MIP which is like PMI and FHA loan

38:44

forever. It doesn't matter what your equity is on

38:46

the property but on a conventional loan it's going

38:48

to drop off when you hit that 80% loan

38:50

to value ratio. So I just have to make

38:52

sure every year I can save up another 3%.

38:55

Now if I'm not having a housing payment like

38:58

you mentioned Rob and I'm keeping

39:00

my budget in control, I can probably save up

39:02

more than 3% every single year

39:04

which means I can always buy another house

39:06

if I'm willing to be uncomfortable. I'm

39:08

always moving into a new property. No one likes moving

39:10

and no one likes roommates. Get over it. That's

39:13

what it takes when I got nothing and I got 10 grand in

39:15

the bank and I need to move forward. Now

39:17

in 10 years, I'm going to have

39:19

10 properties. My goal is to buy

39:21

in the best locations I can and add as much equity

39:23

as I can to every single deal just like you said

39:26

Dave. I'm kind of adding all of this together here with

39:28

my strategy. That's the benefit of going last.

39:30

You get to take everybody else's great ideas and work

39:32

it in the queue first. No, it's good though because

39:34

you know in your strategy, how many houses do you

39:36

have at the end of 5 years? Yeah,

39:38

I've got 5 houses and I've got equity in

39:40

each one. If I have 100 grand in every

39:42

house, even 50 grand in every house, I've got

39:44

a quarter million dollars of equity. I started with

39:46

$10,000 to my name and I'm just going to

39:48

keep going. For 10 years, I'm going to do

39:50

this and then I'm going to reevaluate and you

39:52

know what? That 10 year rule of you can't

39:54

keep getting more properties, that only applies to investment

39:56

properties. You could get a loan on a conventional

39:58

loan with more than $10,000. than 10 finance

40:01

properties if it's a primary. So what I keep

40:03

telling people, you gotta buy a primary every single

40:05

year before you do a short term rental, before

40:07

you do a burr, before you do long distance

40:09

investing, before you do any of the sexy stuff

40:11

we talk about on this podcast. Get

40:13

a primary residence, get it in the best

40:15

neighborhood you can, get the best deal you

40:17

can, add as much equity as you possibly

40:19

can, do the boring thing, eat that broccoli

40:21

first. And I'm going to start off behind

40:23

all the other investors and I'm gonna pass

40:25

all of them up just like the tortoise

40:27

in the race because I'm gonna keep taking

40:29

action every single year. It's a great strategy.

40:31

I wanna just like, I know it

40:33

may not sound a lot for a lot of

40:35

people, I just wanna make sure like five houses

40:38

is a lot if you're doing this method because

40:40

in 10 years you have 10, in 20

40:42

you have 20, in 30 you have 30, that's

40:44

a free, like you will be a

40:47

multimillionaire by the time you retire

40:49

if you actually execute this strategy. So I

40:51

really don't want people to think, oh, one

40:53

a year, that's just like your

40:55

foundation. You're just doing that as

40:57

like the base, but you can do so much

41:00

auxiliary real estate on top of

41:02

that and it starts to just snowball so quickly.

41:04

Well, I'm probably gonna hit a point if I'm

41:06

doing rent by the room where I've got seven

41:08

houses and then I've got four tenants at every

41:10

house, that's 28 tenants, that's crazy. I don't wanna

41:12

keep doing that. So I'm gonna take the four

41:14

that have the most equity with the least cashflow,

41:17

calculate the return on equity and I'm gonna sell in

41:19

1031 those into that big

41:21

bad short term rental that I really wanted

41:23

to get. Now I've got one property instead

41:25

of four to manage that eliminated 20 of

41:27

my tenants or whatever the case

41:30

was and then I'm going to make sure that

41:32

like Dave said, I keep buying and building equity

41:34

on every single future deal so that when I

41:36

do feel overwhelmed, I just take all those little

41:38

houses and I 1031 them into a hotel and

41:41

then I keep buying more houses in the future. Yeah,

41:44

totally. I'd love to toss out an idea

41:46

for scaling here and again, I don't really

41:48

love selling real estate, but I do think

41:50

it could work in this scenario. There

41:52

is that rule where if you lived in the

41:54

property for two out of the last five years,

41:57

you can sell it, I believe, without capital gains

41:59

taxes. You could do that for whatever

42:02

properties you want to within that five-year period

42:04

and use that money to then actually start

42:07

in acquiring more aggressive types of properties. Maybe

42:09

it's bigger triplexes, quadplexes. Maybe you use

42:11

those funds to actually execute a burr

42:13

or a rehab. But I think that's

42:16

where you can start getting a little

42:18

bit experimental with your equity. Wonderful.

42:20

But the key is you always got to have more equity because

42:22

equity creates options. Yep. And a lot

42:24

of fears people have, what am I going to do when I have all these houses? What

42:26

am I going to do when I'm stuck? If you

42:28

have equity, you have options and you can

42:30

move it around. I think that's so true

42:32

that equity is extremely flexible and gives you

42:34

the best liquidity

42:36

options to take advantage of future opportunities

42:39

because none of us really know what

42:41

they're going to be. But

42:43

if you have liquid equity, you're always

42:45

sort of in a ready state to

42:47

take advantage of whatever comes up. There

42:49

you have it, folks. Rob,

42:51

Dave, and I figuring out how we would

42:54

start from scratch, $60,000 salary,

42:56

$400 car payment, $10,000 in

42:58

the bank, just a little baby bird trying

43:00

to figure out how to fly. This is

43:02

how we would soar like eagles. Let us

43:04

know in the comments what you would do

43:07

if you think that there's a strategy that we

43:09

missed. And if you're listening to this, where you

43:11

listen to podcasts, please subscribe to this show. If

43:14

you're enjoying it, we would appreciate it a

43:16

ton. Anything you guys want to add before we

43:18

get out of here? I'm just going to say

43:20

there are definitely other more aggressive strategies out there.

43:22

You could go right into flips and

43:24

do like hard money lenders that will loan 100%.

43:28

I think there's a lot of ways to do that. You can do

43:30

wholesaling. I just think that everything we

43:32

talked about is the most practical and

43:34

a conservative but really amazing way to get

43:36

started in real estate. So I'll leave it

43:39

with that. This is practical. I think anybody

43:41

could do this. All righty. I'll

43:43

let you guys get out of here. This is David

43:45

Green for Dave's Start with Sandwiches Meyer

43:47

and Rob, drop it like it's guac

43:49

Abasolo. Signing off. Braving

44:11

the real estate investing journey on your own

44:13

can be daunting. Doubts tend to

44:15

creep up and stifle your ambition. Is this actually

44:17

a good deal? Did you run the numbers right?

44:19

What if you can't find a tenant? Can you

44:22

even afford this place? What if you lose your

44:24

job? Whatever you're going through, we've all been there.

44:26

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Head on over to biggerpockets.com/enroll me

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45:06

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45:08

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45:10

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45:14

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45:17

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