0:00

For those of you out there listening,

0:02

maybe you're someone who doesn't yet own

0:04

a home, you're renting right now, and

0:06

you want to get into real estate

0:09

investing. I can imagine that

0:11

you're looking at home prices, higher interest

0:13

rates than we've seen in quite a

0:15

long time, and you're feeling a bit

0:17

discouraged. I talk to people who are

0:19

feeling this way all the time, so

0:22

don't feel like you're alone in trying

0:24

to figure out what strategies work, but

0:26

rest assured, there are strategies that work

0:28

in today's market, and on this episode,

0:31

we're gonna talk about one of the

0:33

most reliable strategies that honestly most prospective

0:35

investors can use to get started, which

0:37

is house hacking. ["The Bigger

0:40

Pockets Real Estate Podcast"] Welcome

0:44

to The Bigger Pockets Real Estate

0:46

Podcast. I'm your host today, Dave

0:48

Meyer. Today, I'm gonna have a

0:50

conversation with Terrence Terrell, and he's

0:52

a lender, and he specializes in

0:54

working with a special niche of

0:56

investors. It's investors who are also

0:58

first-time home buyers, because whether you're

1:00

house hacking or buying your first

1:02

condo, your first primary residence, every

1:04

real estate purchase is an investment,

1:06

and this is really Terrence's sweet

1:08

spot. And today, he's gonna give

1:10

us all a masterclass in everything you need

1:13

to know if you're considering house hacking, from

1:15

loan options to common misconceptions that trip

1:17

up a lot of new investors to

1:19

the smart house hackers checklist. I think

1:21

you guys will love this episode if

1:23

you're just trying to get started. Let's

1:25

bring on Terrence. Terrence,

1:27

welcome to The Bigger Pockets Real Estate Podcast.

1:29

Thanks for being here. Dave, thank

1:31

you so much for having me. I'm excited

1:33

to be here. All right, we're gonna start

1:35

with something very basic. Most of our audience

1:38

has probably heard the term house hacking, but

1:40

for those who haven't yet, can you give

1:42

us a brief overview of this strategy? For

1:44

sure. So house hacking is essentially someone that

1:47

buys and owns a home and rents out

1:49

part of it for income, whether

1:51

it's a single-family home, and they're renting

1:54

out rooms, couches, basements, attics,

1:56

whatever that may be, or they're

1:58

buying a multi-unit property. two, three,

2:00

four units and rinsing out the other units, that's

2:03

house hacking. And why is this

2:05

such a popular strategy, particularly for new

2:07

investors? It's the easiest thing to do,

2:10

because there are so many

2:12

benefits to house hacking. I mean, obviously

2:14

you're buying the home as an owner

2:16

occupant. When we're looking at, from a

2:18

lender perspective, financing. Owner occupied

2:21

financing is always gonna get you the best

2:23

terms. So if you can

2:25

do anything with that to reduce

2:27

your own financial commitment monthly, there's

2:29

a benefit there. If it's a multi-unit, I

2:32

can actually use the qualifying

2:34

income from the other units

2:36

that you're rinsing out to help offset. So

2:38

people actually qualify for more home, if

2:41

they're buying a multi-unit than they would

2:43

if they were buying a single family,

2:45

because you have extra income. I just

2:47

wanna point out to everyone that the

2:49

reason Terrence has specifically listed duplex, triplex

2:51

and quadplex, is that that is

2:53

the limit. Four units is the limit to

2:56

what is considered residential

2:58

financing. Anything above that,

3:00

so if you go five units or

3:02

higher, you're gonna need to go to

3:05

a commercial lender or a private lender,

3:07

something different. And so that's why when

3:09

we talk about house hacking, most

3:11

of the time, we talk about four

3:14

units or fewer. In addition

3:16

to that one benefit of being able

3:18

to add rental income to your DTI

3:20

for the two, three and four units,

3:23

Terrence, as an investor, what

3:25

are the other benefits of residential financing?

3:27

Because this is, and owner

3:29

occupied financing, because this is sort of

3:31

the one way that you

3:34

can buy multiple units, right?

3:36

And still get owner occupied

3:38

residential financing. Yeah, so the

3:40

big benefit there is, like

3:42

I was talking about a few minutes

3:44

ago, with the benefits of buying as

3:46

an owner occupant. So the main benefit,

3:49

especially for first time investors, I mean,

3:51

everybody's financial situation is different, but it's

3:53

the initial cash investment. So

3:55

buying as an owner occupant, your down payment commitment

3:58

is a lot lower than it would be. if

4:00

you were buying non-owner-occupant, a

4:02

straight investment property. So,

4:05

depends on the program, right? So, if we're

4:07

looking at FHA financing, you can put

4:09

three and a half percent down of

4:11

the purchase price up to four units. If

4:14

you're doing conventional financing, you can go into,

4:16

again, up to four units with five percent

4:18

down. If you're buying a single unit property

4:20

and you're a first-time home buyer, you can

4:22

go into it with three percent down. There

4:24

are programs to where you can even put

4:27

down one percent on a

4:29

single unit property. So, buying as an

4:31

owner-occupant, especially for your first property, is

4:33

a huge benefit. Even if you're considering,

4:35

okay, I want to become an investor,

4:38

buying a property is an investment.

4:40

I don't care if it's a

4:42

one-bedroom house, a townhouse, a condo,

4:44

that's an investment because you can

4:46

then think one, two,

4:48

three steps ahead. What's my plan

4:51

for this? So, when I'm having a conversation

4:53

with someone that says, I want to be

4:55

an investor, what do I do? First, okay,

4:57

you want to buy a condo two steps ahead. You

4:59

want to buy a multi-unit, a single family, whatever it

5:02

may be. What's our mortgage payment going to be for

5:04

the condo? What is the

5:07

market rental income for these

5:09

condos in this area? Will

5:12

it cover your mortgage and some when

5:14

you move out? Does

5:16

your building allow rentals? Is

5:19

there a rental cap? You know, these are the things

5:21

that you want to ask when there's condos, single family

5:23

homes. There's no cap, right? But you still want to

5:25

make sure that the rental income that you're going to

5:27

get when you move out of it, because again, that's

5:29

an investment, is going to at least cover

5:31

the mortgage because you don't want to be in the red when you

5:33

move out. That's a bad investment. That makes sense. So, it's advocating

5:36

for thinking ahead so that

5:38

I guess there's two strategies,

5:40

right? One is just making sure that it's a

5:42

positive, probably a cashflow positive

5:44

deal if you move out. The

5:47

other one is if you're using

5:49

an owner-occupied strategy for that first

5:51

deal and you move out and

5:53

you want to maybe do another

5:55

owner-occupied deal into a duplex, shiplap,

5:57

squadplex, you're going to have to

5:59

refile. that first deal because

6:01

you obviously can't get two owner occupied

6:03

deals at the same time. Well,

6:06

not necessarily. You don't have to. There's

6:09

a seasoning, right? Yeah, you don't have

6:11

to refinance it. So when you're buying

6:13

an owner occupied property, your

6:15

commitment to that property is one year. Okay.

6:18

You got closing, you sign a document that says, I

6:20

intend to live in this property for one

6:23

year. But if you're going conventional

6:25

financing and you buy one this year, you

6:28

can buy another one next year, owner occupied,

6:30

you don't have to touch the financing for

6:32

the first one. Got it. Okay. I

6:35

just want to get back to something that Taren said earlier, just

6:37

so everyone knows. It's like there are programs right now where you

6:39

can put 3% down, 5% down, 10% down and buy

6:44

four units. That

6:46

is one of the most powerful

6:48

ways to start your investing portfolio

6:50

out there. It's really why

6:53

so often when investors are asked, what's the best

6:55

way to get started? Ask a lender, what's the

6:57

best way to get started? So many people say

6:59

this because it's really just kind of a little

7:01

bit of a cheat code because you can put

7:04

less down, you can get more units. And

7:06

if you live in a state or a area

7:10

where cashflow is difficult to

7:12

come by, one of

7:14

the cool things about house hacking is

7:16

you don't actually need to have it

7:18

be cashflow positive in order for it

7:20

to be a positive financial decision for

7:22

you. If you can reduce your

7:24

housing costs, like imagine you're renting and you're paying

7:27

1500 bucks a month, if through house hacking, you're only paying

7:29

$200 a month, that is $1300 a

7:34

month that you're saving and it's actually after

7:36

tax money, so it's even better. And

7:39

so you have to think about what kind of

7:41

financial situation that would put you in. That's not

7:43

true of everyone. For some people,

7:45

it would still be better to rent, but it just

7:47

gives you a little bit more flexibility. So

7:50

I do want to just talk to you a

7:52

little bit about, Terrence, who this is

7:54

good for, because we've been talking about how great

7:56

house hacking is, but is it good for everyone

7:58

or what are the types of clients you think

8:01

do best with house hacking? Well, I mean, I'm

8:03

a little bit biased because I've done it for

8:05

many, many years myself, but I mean, I think

8:07

it's good for anybody. Yeah, me too. I did

8:09

it myself. That's how I got started. Exactly. And

8:11

you know, if, like you said, if the numbers

8:13

make sense to where it's reducing your housing costs

8:15

or housing expense, or even if

8:17

it's the exact same as it

8:19

would be if you're renting, your benefit

8:22

there is you're owning a home, you're

8:24

building equity. So there's the win there.

8:26

But like you say, it's not for

8:28

everybody. Not everybody wants to be a

8:30

landlord. Not everybody wants to deal with

8:32

tenants. That's understandable, right? So if someone

8:34

is wanting to and willing

8:37

to be a landlord or they're used

8:39

to having roommates, it's a win-win. I

8:41

don't see any negatives to it if

8:43

it's someone that is capable and willing

8:45

to be a landlord. I think that

8:47

makes sense. There are certain personality types,

8:49

right? Where like, if you don't want

8:51

to live next to your tenants, like

8:54

I personally don't think it's as bad as people make

8:56

it out to be. Like I did

8:58

it for several years, but

9:00

I understand that. If that's something you really don't

9:02

like, it might make sense for you. All

9:04

right, so now that we know what house

9:06

hacking is and who should consider it, what

9:08

do you need to know before you go

9:10

after your first house hack deal? Terence

9:13

brings that down for us right after the break.

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take care of our people over there. Welcome

11:27

back to the BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast. I'm here

11:29

with Lender Terrence Terrell, and we're walking

11:31

through everything you need to know before you start that

11:33

first house hack. So let's just jump

11:35

back into it. Let's talk

11:37

about, you know, some common misconceptions

11:39

that happen with house hacking. Like,

11:42

where do people get confused during

11:44

this process? One of

11:46

the biggest ones I have when I take phone calls

11:48

from people is, number one, the down payment. You

11:51

know, it's that misconception that I have to

11:53

have 20% down to buy a

11:55

house that it's, you know, so expensive. You know, saving

11:57

for down payment is so hard. Like, we just talked

11:59

about. about, there are other options,

12:01

especially now that Fannie Mae has

12:04

changed their guidelines back at the end of last year

12:06

to allow 5% down on

12:08

two to four units. That's huge. I

12:11

mean, you've not needed 20% down

12:14

to buy a house for quite

12:16

a while. I mean, you can get into your first

12:18

home with 3% down. Multi-units is where it gets a

12:20

little complicated, but the down payment

12:22

is a huge misconception. The difficulty of being

12:24

a landlord is a little bit of a

12:26

misconception. It's not as hard as

12:29

people make it out to be. Like you said, you've done it

12:31

before. I've been doing it for years. I have

12:33

tenants that live above, below, in

12:35

other units. It's not terrible. If

12:38

you're willing to put in the work, you have to make sure you vet the

12:40

tenants. People think that not

12:43

even just from a house acting standpoint, from a home

12:45

buying standpoint, that it's hard,

12:47

that the financing is hard.

12:50

It's not if you have

12:52

a good lender that's going to make sure that everything

12:54

that you have is in place. If it's not, tell

12:57

you what you need to do to get there or

12:59

that I can house hack and I can make

13:01

money every single month on every purchase, no matter

13:04

where I am. Like you touched on a

13:06

little bit ago, there are differences

13:08

depending on where you are,

13:10

the market that you're in. I talked to

13:12

a lot of people, thankfully through Bigger Pockets because

13:14

I've had a presence on the platform for almost 10

13:16

years, 12 years now, that

13:20

when they're listening to podcasts, when they're reading articles and

13:22

they're talking about cash flow positive, I bought a house

13:24

for $50,000 and I put $10,000 into it and I'm

13:28

going to sell it for $400,000. That doesn't work

13:30

everywhere. I work with, like I said,

13:34

I'm in Chicago, I do lend in

13:36

multiple states around the country, but I'm

13:38

primarily working in a major metropolitan

13:40

where those numbers aren't necessarily the

13:43

facts. We have to kind of back up

13:45

a little bit and say, okay, if you're looking to buy a multi-unit,

13:48

on a two-unit, you're probably going to do what you

13:50

said, Dave, and you're going to reduce your monthly payment

13:53

just with a two-unit. Three-unit, you're probably

13:55

going to break even. Four units where you're going

13:57

to be cash flow positive. Then you think about the numbers when you're

13:59

going to move out. So those are the

14:01

biggest misconceptions that I have to deal with. Do

14:04

you find that most clients

14:06

that come to you fully

14:08

understand what they're getting into

14:11

or are there any things that perspective

14:13

or potential house buyers should be thinking about

14:15

before approaching a lender? Well, to answer your

14:17

first question, no. A lot of people have

14:19

no idea what they're getting themselves into. You

14:23

know, they say, okay, I have, you

14:25

know, X number of dollars to put down on a

14:27

house. I want to buy a million dollar house. I'm

14:29

like, okay, hold on, let's back up a little bit. Let's

14:32

work backwards into what that needs to look like. Because

14:35

people know that they need a down payment. What that down

14:37

payment is, they don't know, but we educate them on what

14:39

that is. But one thing they're not thinking

14:41

about is CapEx on a house.

14:44

They're not thinking about closing costs on a house.

14:47

You have to have those. I mean, there are ways for

14:50

closing costs. There are ways to ask for seller

14:52

credits to kind of help with those. One

14:55

question I do get a lot of is, oh, I'm just,

14:57

I want to roll in my closing costs. I'm like, well,

14:59

technically, that's not a thing. The

15:01

way that you do it is you get a credit

15:03

from the seller to then reduce those closing costs.

15:06

That's how you can get the seller to pay for closing costs.

15:09

But there are limits. You know, there

15:11

are limits on how much you can get with FHA

15:13

financing, you know, your CapDeck 6%, depending

15:16

on the down payment, conventional

15:18

financing, you know, if you're less than 10%

15:21

down, which most first time buyers are, your

15:23

CapDeck 3% of the purchase price.

15:26

But that goes a long way. It'll help you almost

15:28

eliminate your closing costs. So then you can come to

15:30

the table with just your down payment. But

15:33

then also, okay, well, what's

15:35

my CapEx on this place? You know, what am I going

15:37

to have to put into it? What am I going to

15:39

have to put into it years to come? This is why

15:41

you have a home inspection. So you can have a general

15:43

idea of what that looks like. One thing

15:46

people don't think about is reserves. Reserves

15:48

are key. You know, if you're buying a two

15:51

to four unit and we're using conventional financing, six

15:53

months of reserves at your minimum. And

15:56

what that means is six months of

15:59

your mortgage. mortgage payment put away. We have to show

16:01

it, we have to source it, we have to show you how.

16:03

It doesn't have to be liquid. It can be 401k,

16:06

it can be stocks. We just have to show

16:08

that you have six months of reserves. Yeah. And

16:10

that just makes sense from a risk mitigation perspective,

16:12

right? Everyone needs to

16:15

be able to weather

16:17

financial downturns. Everyone knows

16:19

this, life happens. And you might

16:21

face a month where a boiler breaks

16:23

and then something happens. Your personal life

16:25

totally unrelated to real estate. You have

16:27

to have some money in the

16:30

bank, both literally

16:32

and figuratively, to actually be

16:35

able to weather those storms. Because as

16:37

we talk about a lot on the

16:39

show, real estate works when you

16:41

hold it over the long run. What

16:43

stops you from doing that is not

16:45

properly having reserves to weather these downstorms.

16:48

That's when some people have to sell

16:50

at an inopportune time and take a loss.

16:53

Whereas if you just keep the right amount

16:55

of reserves, you can hold on as long

16:57

as you need to make the return that

16:59

you're looking for. Right. So let's talk about

17:01

qualifying for a house hacking loan. For an

17:03

owner occupied mortgage for

17:06

let's say duplex, what are the main things you

17:08

as a lender are looking at? We're going to

17:10

look at credit score. We're going

17:12

to look at assets. We

17:14

need to make sure you have sufficient funds

17:16

to close. So your down payment, your closing

17:19

costs, your reserves. We're

17:21

going to look at your debt to income

17:23

ratio. This one is huge. So

17:25

your total monthly debt, because everything we

17:27

look at from a lending perspective is

17:29

monthly. So your total

17:31

monthly debt as a

17:34

percentage of your gross monthly income.

17:36

And that is inclusive of your

17:39

mortgage payment. So if we're

17:41

looking at a duplex, we're going to look

17:43

at your gross monthly income plus the rental

17:45

income that we can get from the other

17:48

unit. And we can use 75% of

17:50

that. The appraisal is going to tell us what the

17:52

market rental income is. We use

17:54

75% of that and we look at your

17:56

debts. So your minimum monthly payments

17:59

on your credit cards, your car payments,

18:01

your student loans, any other monthly debt

18:03

that you have plus the housing expense,

18:05

those are your monthly debts. And we

18:08

look at that percentage. With conventional financing,

18:10

most of the time, your cap debt is somewhere between 47 and

18:15

49% of your gross monthly income. We're going to

18:17

want to see a credit score of at least

18:19

640. And then

18:21

when we're looking at scores below

18:24

700, we may also be

18:26

looking at FHA financing because

18:28

FHA financing will probably give you better terms

18:30

of financing when I say by that is

18:32

your interest rate and your mortgage insurance. Because

18:35

when you put down less than 20%, this is

18:37

Lending 101, when you put down

18:39

less than 20%, you're going to pay private mortgage

18:41

insurance. So that

18:44

factor, that mortgage insurance is probably going to

18:46

be lower with FHA financing. The

18:48

rate is probably going to be lower with FHA financing

18:50

if your credit score is a little bit lower. It's

18:53

still a way to get into the property, but

18:55

it's a different way we can finance it to

18:57

keep it as favorable for you as possible. So

18:59

those are the big things we look at. So

19:01

when I'm qualifying someone and something is

19:03

off, one of those things don't fit, we

19:06

figure out a plan so that they

19:08

can get there. Got it. Because there

19:10

are ways to get there. Yeah, that totally

19:12

makes sense. So much of it is trade

19:14

offs, like you're talking about, like the ways

19:16

to get there. If you want

19:18

to put 20% down, great, you're

19:21

going to probably cash flow better because you're

19:23

not going to be paying that PMI, that

19:25

private mortgage insurance. If you

19:27

put down less, if you have less

19:29

money saved up, that's also perfectly fine.

19:31

But you have to understand that that's

19:33

going to reduce your cash flow a

19:35

little bit. For first

19:37

time investors, for people who are just getting started,

19:40

sometimes you just need to make trade

19:42

offs and you're not going to get

19:45

the perfect loan. Because just to be

19:47

perfectly honest, you're not the perfect borrower

19:49

to the bank, right? Unless you

19:51

have 20% down. And so

19:53

you have to just think about that. And that's totally fine,

19:55

right? Like not your first deal doesn't need to be a

19:57

home run. A lot of times house hacking.

20:00

can turn into a home run, but even if it's just, you

20:02

know, a single, a double, a triple kind of

20:04

deal, it can really work out for you. And

20:06

that's why you wanna just work with your lender

20:09

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20:11

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20:13

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and be happy, and then later on I can

20:26

upgrade to this. When I have more money, more

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right, we do have to take one

20:32

more quick break, but while we're away,

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if you have a friend or a

20:37

family member who wants to get their

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20:41

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back investors. Let's pick back up where we

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left off. So that sort of

24:52

brings me to my last question here,

24:54

which is, you know, you've already given

24:56

us some advice on how to sort

24:58

of start thinking one step ahead, two

25:01

steps ahead. But do you have any

25:03

thoughts on how house hackers who are

25:05

looking for their first deal or maybe

25:07

their second house hack can think strategically

25:09

right now and set themselves up for

25:12

lendability, which might be a word

25:14

I just made up, but lendability

25:16

in the future? So

25:18

it's honestly the exact same things that we

25:21

go through when qualifying them the

25:23

first time. I want to say,

25:25

okay, well, what is the plan? What do you want to do? When

25:29

you already own something, like if someone that's

25:31

looking to buy something in the future that

25:33

they already own, you want

25:35

to think about your tax returns because

25:37

this is, I mean, this can be a whole

25:40

new conversation, but I'll kind of shorten it. We're

25:43

going to look at your tax returns to

25:45

tell us what your income is on your

25:47

current property. So depending on the expenses that

25:49

you have for the property, depending on what

25:51

the rental is, depending on how many months

25:54

of vacancy you have, you may not show

25:56

very well on your tax returns, which

25:58

is always the fun part, another

26:01

fun part when I'm having conversation with people because they

26:03

say, oh, I have a really good accountant. I'm

26:05

writing off all this stuff. And I'm like, great, you're

26:07

in the red on this property, technically. So

26:10

that may hurt you for qualifying for your

26:12

second property. This is only for a multi

26:14

unit. Again, I can go on about this all day. But

26:17

on a single unit property, we can use departing rental

26:19

income when you're buying another

26:21

one, which is awesome. So we just have

26:23

to show that your current home is rented.

26:26

We have to show that you have received

26:28

two months rent or first month rent

26:30

security deposit. And then we can use,

26:32

again, a percentage of that to

26:35

offset your current mortgage. So when you're looking to

26:37

buy your second property, it's almost like you're starting

26:39

over again. We don't have to hit

26:41

you with any additional debt. Terrence, do

26:43

you have any final thoughts or final

26:45

advice for those who want to house

26:47

hack and how they can just be

26:49

as prepared as possible for their conversations

26:51

with their lenders and to be a

26:54

successful house hacker? Absolutely. Well,

26:56

number one is talk

26:58

to your lender. It's so true. It's funny,

27:00

because it just seems like people are always

27:02

like, well, I don't know if I'll qualify.

27:04

And I'm like, well, did you talk to

27:06

a lender? And they say, no. No, exactly.

27:09

Like, it's free. Just go talk to a

27:11

lender. They're going to tell you exactly what

27:13

you need to know. And you'll save so

27:15

much time knowing what exactly what you qualify

27:17

for, exactly what your position is. And you

27:19

could start honing in on the properties that

27:21

actually work for you. Absolutely. I

27:23

mean, I would say make sure that they're

27:25

talking to a lender that understands investors. There

27:27

are plenty of great lenders that understand

27:29

investors on bigger pockets, on the platform. Same

27:32

thing with the real estate agent. You want to make

27:35

sure that you're working with one that knows investing, knows

27:37

invest in your market. Because that's key,

27:39

because that's going to help you set

27:41

yourself up for success. It's not just someone that says, OK,

27:43

yeah, here's what you qualify for. Here's how you close the

27:45

deal. It's someone that's thinking

27:47

about it with an investment mindset. So

27:50

that's thing number one. And when you're going

27:52

into that conversation, have the essentials with you.

27:54

Know what your income is. Know what your

27:56

assets are. Know what you're willing to spend

27:58

on the whole month. know what you're

28:01

willing to put down, and then they can help you

28:03

work into the purchase price so

28:05

you know what you're doing. There are plenty

28:07

of people to talk to, just people that

28:09

have done it, plenty of investors that aren't

28:11

lenders and realsters that are on the platform,

28:13

that are on the forums. Have conversations with

28:15

them, those that are in your market. You

28:18

know, go to some of the meetups. Those are

28:20

key. I go to a bunch of them. It's

28:22

fun. You know, it's great to just talk to

28:24

people because I started investing before I even started

28:26

lending. No, not so. Yeah, it's just one of

28:28

those things where there's so much knowledge out there,

28:30

but you want to make sure that it is

28:32

specific to you as possible. But step one, talk

28:34

to a lender because you don't know what

28:37

you don't know. All right. Well, that's

28:39

just very candid. Good advice. I appreciate

28:41

that. I do what I can. And

28:43

obviously for anyone listening, if you want

28:45

to meet a lender, we'll put Terrence's

28:47

information in the show notes, of course,

28:49

below. We also have a lender finder

28:51

on BiggerPockets. If you go to biggerpockets.com/lenders,

28:54

put in some information there. You can

28:56

find a lender to talk to. Terrence,

28:58

thank you so much for joining us. This is

29:00

a really great, fun conversation. We appreciate it. Dave,

29:03

thank you so much for having me. This was

29:05

a blast. And thank you all for listening.

29:07

For BiggerPockets, I'm Dave Meyer, and we'll see you

29:09

soon. The

29:30

market is changing and finding your way

29:32

can be tricky. Rates shift, headlines whirl,

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but your goal hasn't changed. You want

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30:34

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