0:00

I think Americans are used to

0:02

seeing people arrested for bullshit technicalities

0:04

and thrown in jail for long

0:07

periods of time. But

0:09

in the rest of the world it is quite uncommon. For

0:12

a non-US Bitcoin entrepreneur, the

0:14

US is a scary and

0:16

dangerous place. American

0:19

authorities seem resourceful, competent, and

0:21

motivated to destroy your life

0:23

just to prove a point.

0:26

This line of thinking is not paranoia,

0:29

nor is it cowardice. The

0:33

best in Bitcoin made audible.

0:36

I am Guy Swan and this

0:38

is Bitcoin Audible. What

0:56

is up guys welcome back to Bitcoin

0:58

Audible. I am Guy Swan, the guy

1:01

who has read more about Bitcoin than

1:03

anybody else you know. We've

1:06

got a really fun show today for a couple of

1:08

different reasons. This show is brought to you by Swan

1:10

Bitcoin by the way, the best place to buy Bitcoin.

1:13

And if you want to get $10,000 for

1:16

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go buy, you'll have no fees. And

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then you want to get yourself a coin kite

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keys and they are safe. They are

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protected from your security nightmare ridden devices

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that are surveilled and everything. Keep your

1:41

keys off that shit and get

1:43

yourself a cold card. And don't forget my

1:45

discount code, Bitcoin Audible. All of those details will be

1:47

right in the show notes. We have a

1:50

piece by Francis Puyo, the CEO

1:52

and everybody knows Francis.

1:56

Francis is wildly entertaining

1:58

and. awesome guy

2:00

building amazing things building bull Bitcoin

2:04

and they actually just lost that

2:07

they had their loophole closed of

2:09

buying non-kyc Bitcoin through the Canadian

2:11

Postal Service and that was very

2:13

sad to see I was a little

2:16

part of me was shocked at how long that

2:18

was able to go on but

2:21

it seems like a lot of the a

2:25

lot of the avenues a lot of freedoms a lot of the

2:28

ease of access are

2:30

being closed in a lot

2:32

of different ways and I think that

2:35

that hand is going to continue to squeeze

2:37

the neck and it's

2:41

important to respond in a couple of different

2:43

ways I think I think responding in a

2:45

lawsuit is something that likely

2:47

can and ought to happen there

2:50

will be conversations that we have on the show about that I've

2:53

already I'm

2:55

this hopefully getting together and discussing with a

2:57

number of different people again I

2:59

don't really know about how to target that but

3:01

I think this is an

3:03

important thing to do especially in the

3:05

context of them trying to label or

3:10

define money transfer as not

3:13

even needing to be custodially

3:15

involved like not even need to

3:17

be in possession or in control

3:20

and what's interesting is we actually talk about

3:22

this after in the take after because we

3:25

have a special guest today which

3:27

was a last-minute choice and you'll hear about

3:29

why at the very end of the episode

3:32

but my brother is actually going to join

3:34

us so we will have a guy's and

3:37

Jeff take at the end of this which

3:39

is far too long but was

3:42

a lot of fun nonetheless and I think

3:44

you guys will enjoy it so without

3:46

further ado let's just go ahead

3:48

and get into today's read and then

3:50

we'll follow it up with a little bit of commentary

3:52

okay a lot of commentary and

3:56

it's titled drain

4:00

in the USA by

4:02

Francis Puyo. It's

4:05

easy to criticize Bitcoin companies for pulling out

4:07

of the United States of America from

4:09

the comfort of your armchair with zero skin

4:12

in the game. I

4:14

don't presume to know why Async,

4:16

Wallet of Satoshi, Wasabi Wallet, and

4:18

many others decided to block US

4:20

persons from using their service, but

4:23

here is my perspective as

4:25

a non-US Bitcoin entrepreneur.

4:28

With creating transaction templates non-custodially on

4:31

the behalf of users and taking

4:33

a fee for the service can

4:35

be considered money transmission or a

4:37

money service business activity in the

4:40

United States as it is

4:42

alleged in the Samurai Wallet indictment, it

4:45

is absolutely not a stretch

4:47

to imagine that processing quote

4:49

just-in-time transactions for users as

4:51

an LSP as well as

4:53

performing loop outs which basically

4:55

constitutes an exchange of BTC

4:57

for lightning could be

4:59

or will be considered money

5:02

transmission. Even more

5:04

alarmingly in quote the government's opposition

5:06

to defendant Roman Storm's pretrial motions

5:08

in the United States versus Roman

5:10

Storm the tornado cash case, the

5:13

US government's argument attempts to refute

5:15

the notion that non-custody of funds

5:18

or quote control over funds disqualifies

5:21

a service from being engaged in

5:23

the transmission of funds and that

5:25

people that operate, develop, and pay

5:27

for software which helps develop Bitcoin

5:30

transactions even without having control

5:32

over the funds still qualifies

5:34

them as being engaged in money

5:36

transmission. See the

5:38

picture below quote these

5:41

definitions do not require control over the

5:43

thing that is being conveyed or caused

5:45

to pass from one to another. For

5:48

instance a USB cable transfers data from one

5:50

device to another and a frying pan transfers

5:52

heat from a stove to the contents of

5:54

the pan although neither situation

5:56

involves exercising quote control over what

5:58

is being transferred. The

6:02

defendant argues that the ordinary meaning

6:04

of the words accept and transmit

6:07

requires the business to have control

6:09

of the funds, as with the

6:11

word transferring. However, the definitions

6:13

of these words do not require the

6:15

narrow interpretation urged by the defendant. The

6:19

prosecution attempts to interpret the intent

6:21

of Congress in passing these laws.

6:25

If Congress had intended that the control of the

6:28

funds was a requirement, it could have said as

6:30

much in the plain text of the statute, and

6:32

Congress surely did not intend the statute to be

6:34

so easily evaded, which is likely why Congress did

6:37

not include the word control in the statute in

6:39

the first place. Under

6:42

the same faulty logic,

6:44

there exists a very

6:46

real slippery slope towards

6:48

also considering mining pools

6:50

or miners themselves, non-custodial

6:52

Bitcoin wallets, lightning network,

6:54

or even Bitcoin nodes

6:56

to be money transmission

6:58

services. Under such

7:00

a broad interpretation of what constitutes

7:02

money transmission when it comes to

7:05

US law, pretty much every

7:08

software involved in making,

7:10

relaying, or mining Bitcoin

7:12

transactions would qualify as

7:14

a money transmitter. I

7:18

personally think these interpretations are far-fetched,

7:20

legally shaky, and it is uncertain

7:22

whether they will hold up in

7:24

court. However, the facts remain.

7:28

Roman Storm was arrested and

7:30

released on bail, while Samurai developer

7:32

Hill is in jail. If

7:35

Bitcoin is money, or a money substitute, which

7:37

it no doubt is, then

7:39

custodial wallets and custody service providers

7:41

will almost certainly be considered money

7:43

transmitters in the United States, insofar

7:46

as they allow their users to make

7:48

deposits and process withdrawals on their behalf.

7:51

Some people in the Bitcoin space are making

7:53

the case that no Bitcoin service provider can

7:55

be interpreted to be a money transmitter because

7:57

Bitcoin is quote, not money, but rather is

8:00

quote, speech or software. This

8:03

argument is, pardon my French, retarded.

8:07

Of course, Bitcoin is money. Even

8:10

if Bitcoin is not legally recognized as

8:12

such by every government institution in many

8:15

countries, anybody with half a brain recognizes

8:17

that it acts as money in practice,

8:19

particularly when it suits them. Governments

8:22

refraining to consider Bitcoin as money

8:25

for political reasons simply classify it

8:27

as a virtual asset that

8:29

acts as a money equivalent or

8:31

substitute and includes companies dealing with

8:33

Bitcoin within the same frameworks that

8:36

cover money service businesses, or

8:38

they create new frameworks for virtual

8:41

asset providers entirely, usually similar and

8:43

often worse than those covering fiat

8:45

money transmission. We are

8:47

in 2024. We are

8:50

way past the stage of trying to

8:52

redefine what is Bitcoin and what is

8:54

money in a clumsy attempt to bamboozle

8:56

regulators. One's reaction to

8:58

this might be we need to push back,

9:00

stand and fight. That is a very

9:02

noble stand to take, and I support anyone taking

9:05

it. For US companies, it

9:07

totally makes sense to take that stand,

9:09

since no matter what, they are already

9:11

under American jurisdiction, and unless they plan

9:13

on leaving their, quote, on the hook.

9:16

So they have no choice but to take a stand

9:18

and fight. But as a foreign

9:20

company, why take the risk?

9:23

Sure, by pulling out of the USA, you lose

9:25

access to the world's biggest market. But

9:28

as not doing so could entail the end

9:30

of your business and you spending a couple

9:32

of decades in prison, so

9:34

it may definitely be worth it.

9:37

A non-US Bitcoin service provider

9:40

might ponder, am I breaking

9:42

US law and will be spending a

9:44

decade in a federal prison surrounded by

9:46

murderers and rapists? I guess

9:48

I'll find out on my next family vacation

9:51

to Disney World in Orlando. From

9:53

a non-US person's perspective, it appears

9:55

that you could be arrested without

9:58

prior notification and need to...

10:00

defend your case in court if

10:02

you inadvertently found yourself in a

10:04

state of quote non-compliance because your

10:07

lawyers foolishly assumed that transmission in

10:09

the context of financial regulation referred

10:11

to the exchange of money rather

10:14

than the diffusion of heat through

10:16

a frying pan. I

10:18

think Americans are used to seeing people

10:20

arrested for bullshit technicalities and thrown in

10:23

jail for long periods of time, but

10:25

in the rest of the world it is

10:27

quite uncommon for a non-US

10:30

Bitcoin entrepreneur the US is a

10:32

scary and dangerous place. American

10:35

authorities seem resourceful, competent and

10:37

motivated to destroy your life

10:39

just to prove a point.

10:43

This line of thinking is not paranoia

10:45

nor is it cowardice. If

10:47

you are not a US based company

10:50

you have better chances to have

10:52

a meaningful impact on the lives

10:54

of billions of people and push

10:57

forth the calls of Bitcoin globally

10:59

by not soliciting US customers. And

11:02

even if you are not soliciting

11:04

US clients nor operating in the

11:06

US who knows what obscure international

11:09

treaty imposed by the US you

11:11

may be accidentally violating. Better

11:13

to err on the side of

11:16

caution, cut ties with US customers

11:18

publicly and demonstrate that you are

11:20

taking steps to prevent US customers

11:22

from accessing your service. Personally

11:25

if I had any doubt whether

11:27

the US government was considering me

11:29

to be operating an unlicensed money

11:32

service business in the United States

11:34

I would not set foot in the

11:36

United States for fear of being detained

11:38

as soon as I crossed customs. Making

11:42

a Bitcoin app available on the

11:44

app store in a certain country

11:46

can easily be construed as soliciting

11:48

clients from that country and operating

11:50

in that country. While

11:52

it may seem silly, removing your app

11:55

from the US app stores sends a

11:57

clear signal that there is no solicitation

11:59

of US customers. US

12:02

Bitcoiners should also expect other

12:04

measures to restrict their access

12:06

to foreign-based Bitcoin services, which

12:08

will include banning US-based IP

12:11

addresses and US-based phone numbers.

12:14

It wouldn't come as a surprise

12:16

if no KYC businesses eventually decided

12:19

to KYC their clients even

12:21

when not legally mandated in

12:24

their jurisdiction specifically to avoid

12:26

accidentally serving US customers. There

12:30

is an argument to be made

12:32

that the problems US citizens are

12:34

facing because of their government's overreach

12:37

will inevitably become everyone's problem. Indeed,

12:39

many governments around the world emulate

12:42

the United States, and most

12:44

international organizations are heavily influenced

12:46

by US diplomats and policies.

12:49

American Bitcoin companies and citizens should stand

12:52

up to their government. They

12:54

have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

12:57

Consumers around the world should support them in

13:00

any way that they can. Abandoning

13:03

the US market is not

13:05

only the best strategic move

13:07

for a non-US company facing

13:09

such risks and uncertainties, but

13:12

also a good wake-up call for

13:14

American consumers which have become complacent

13:16

in their belief that their country

13:18

is still the land of freedom.

13:21

In an earlier tweet, I said that

13:23

Americans are too toxic. To

13:25

be clear, I love Americans and

13:28

America. I love the culture

13:30

of freedom and capitalism and the American

13:32

spirit. But the reality

13:34

is that by dealing with

13:37

US customers, you expose yourself

13:39

to the radioactive toxicity of

13:41

the three-letter agencies. This

13:43

is the sovereign individual thesis

13:46

playing out. In the

13:48

digital age, entrepreneurs will go

13:50

where they are best treated.

13:55

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13:59

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show notes. Swam Bitcoin is an entire

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them out again links right in the show notes.

16:09

Yeah, so we have a uh, Very

16:12

special guest commentator very special

16:14

bus Um

16:16

special guest special short bus

16:19

special best

16:21

commentator Welcome to

16:23

the show. What do you think? What do you think about that

16:25

article that you just listened at? 200

16:28

speed in about seven minutes Um,

16:32

it was very accurate. I

16:35

uh, I fully agree with

16:38

ransis, um the

16:41

I mean, you know our Government's

16:44

fucking terrible. I don't know like Like

16:47

this is this is what we expected. This

16:49

is what we knew half was going to happen It's

16:52

it's time for It's time

16:54

for you know bitcoin development and stuff to

16:56

start going dark like this is the next

16:58

step Um, yeah,

17:01

you know much more sense. It's

17:03

interesting God jesus

17:06

it was like this should not

17:08

be unexpected. They shouldn't be unexpected. It

17:10

sucks like it's not like it's any

17:12

fun, um, but one

17:16

of the crazy things to me is that frances talks

17:18

about how You

17:20

know, we're kind of we're not only used to but

17:23

we're kind of like Deadened

17:26

to it, you know, like we're

17:28

desensitized to the fact that on

17:31

some random regulatory technicality people

17:33

spend like 10 20 years in

17:35

prison and then Epstein

17:38

literally gets charged with like

17:42

underage rape Rape and

17:45

sexual relations soliciting of an underage prostitution

17:47

and like these sorts of things and

17:49

They just like it doesn't go to jail

17:52

like the the degree of like people

17:54

who commit like really horrible crimes Horrible.

17:56

Yeah, they ran a couple years Like

17:59

nothing. They ran Protection for him for four

18:01

years and then and then yeah

18:03

legit think they just fake killed him and

18:05

shipped him back to his island Or something,

18:07

you know, like like, you know, maybe maybe

18:09

they really killed him. I don't know I

18:13

don't know the all

18:15

all I know is that the video of There

18:19

are the the shots that they showed

18:21

of him being supposedly wheeled out on

18:24

on a stretcher or whatever It

18:27

looked like somebody photoshopped his face like

18:29

his face was bigger Thank

18:31

you. The proportions weren't right like so

18:33

it didn't look real to me like

18:35

the quote unquote proof that

18:37

he's dead didn't look real, you

18:39

know, but Who

18:42

cares this is side the point but but

18:44

the But they you

18:46

know They're definitely, you know,

18:49

Epstein's banker is still You

18:51

know one of the most powerful bankers in the

18:53

world, you know, like that they don't they definitely

18:56

don't punish their own They

18:59

only punish little competitors

19:01

or isn't that funny Epstein did

19:03

this for decades and Nobody's

19:06

in prison for money laundering all of

19:08

his pedophile sex ring Yeah,

19:11

and Bill Gates gave him millions of

19:13

dollars Yeah

19:16

Bill Gates gave him millions of dollars and You

19:19

know Bill Gates is He

19:21

led the whole COVID campaign, you

19:23

know and the idea God

19:26

the whole I Still

19:29

can't believe that the framing like did you

19:31

listen to the? They

19:33

are coming episode Yeah

19:36

came out Wednesday. I guess it was

19:38

um, yeah, well you remember the

19:41

argument when they they tried to

19:43

argue that to transfer is

19:46

kind of the crux of that argument

19:48

and Of you

19:50

don't have to actually have something and you

19:52

don't have to have it in their control But

19:55

they they specifically said so quote from a

19:57

non. Oh, no. Whoops. Where is this? I

20:00

have this quote here. Okay, if Congress

20:02

had intended that control of the funds

20:04

was a requirement, it could have said

20:06

as much in the plain text of

20:08

the statute. And Congress surely

20:10

did not intend the statute to

20:13

be so easily evaded, which

20:16

is likely why Congress did not include

20:18

the word, quote, control in the statute

20:20

in the first place. I

20:23

have to ask, I wanna

20:25

ask this person who wrote this, what

20:28

the hell kind of

20:30

technology or setup would Congress

20:32

be thinking of that

20:35

would allow the transmission of money

20:37

that wasn't custodial? Like

20:39

when has that, like

20:42

when is that ever even existed as a possibility?

20:45

Never been possible, yeah. It's literally, it didn't

20:47

need to be detailed because it was

20:50

functionally impossible until Bitcoin

20:53

existed. So why would you

20:55

have to be detailed? The

20:58

only justifiable reason to have this in

21:00

the first place is to protect consumers,

21:02

right? Like that would be even

21:04

in their own language, that would be the

21:07

point, right? We go, oh, we have to

21:09

protect you from evil people that

21:12

might steal your money or whatever. We have to vet these

21:14

people so that you know that you can trust them. We

21:16

can trust them, you can trust them. And

21:18

if they don't control

21:20

anything, then you don't have to, like we've already

21:23

eliminated the trust problem. This

21:25

is so laughable what they're trying

21:27

to do and justify. And

21:30

the thing is, is like for companies to be scared

21:33

and running away from this is perfectly

21:36

reasonable because it's just like

21:39

that Jameson Lott thing that

21:41

the article you read where, what

21:44

is it, the F, whatever,

21:48

one of the letter agencies, alphabet

21:50

agencies said that, well,

21:54

yeah, no, they proved that this is, unconstitutional

21:58

in this case, but. But everybody else

22:00

is going to have to prove that they deserve

22:02

their privacy again. In

22:04

the case, it's also unconstitutional. It's like, no,

22:07

we just proved it's unconstitutional. And they're

22:09

still just trying to enforce it and

22:11

just saying that, like, well, you have to bring a

22:13

class action lawsuit from your side because this

22:16

judgment doesn't apply to the law. It

22:18

applies to the defense of the person in the

22:20

case. So even though we

22:22

know it's unconstitutional and we are aware that

22:24

this is illegal for us to enforce this

22:26

and that we are infringing upon your rights,

22:29

the only way that you are even going

22:31

to begin to get out of it is

22:33

to go to court with us. And

22:36

so there's no reason to think they won't do

22:38

this same thing with this, right? Like even

22:40

if- They'll push as far as they can possibly

22:42

push. Yeah. Even if we

22:44

prove that this is not legitimate, then, you

22:46

know, the case, if the samurai

22:48

guys win their case, they

22:51

may do it again to the Phoenix guys

22:53

or anybody else that's still operating here, you

22:55

know, like Phoenix left. But

22:58

like that's the point. It doesn't mean

23:00

anything. Roger left the Phoenix.

23:02

Oh, yeah. Well,

23:04

and that's the reason, that's the thing that

23:06

like now privacy has

23:10

got to be the primary

23:12

focus of like everybody

23:14

in this space because for them to be

23:16

going after Roger this many years

23:21

later, for

23:23

I don't even like the tax evasion

23:25

on something like that. I

23:29

don't know. Like I don't know

23:31

if they're accusing him of taking money.

23:33

I mean, Bitcoin exists everywhere,

23:36

but I guess he left and he

23:39

owns the Bitcoin before he left, whatever.

23:42

In any case, like this means

23:44

that you cannot just like the

23:47

flag theory, the idea that you can just have

23:49

a bunch of passports and we can escape

23:51

the US if we want to doesn't apply

23:53

anymore. It's fucked.

23:56

So, you know, that

23:58

means we have. We have to

24:00

find some way to hide

24:03

our money, and we need

24:07

anonymity inside of the Bitcoin

24:09

system so that you

24:12

can still operate and

24:14

not be just hunted by

24:16

the US government because you own a significant

24:18

amount of Bitcoin. And

24:23

I'm really curious. I feel like this has to

24:25

be pushed back on

24:28

to get this clarification of

24:30

language because the

24:32

idea that

24:35

all communication that

24:37

has anything to do with

24:39

money. Literally, my

24:42

router is a money transmitter because

24:44

I punched in my credit card

24:46

information and transmitted that using

24:48

my router. That

24:51

definition is so

24:53

horrifically absurd, so

24:56

unmitigatedly insane.

24:59

Like I just don't – I can't – like,

25:02

are they not extending that? Are they not

25:04

even applying their logic, or are they just

25:07

looking for an excuse and so they've found

25:09

that? They're like, oh, here's something that we

25:11

can lean on. Does it make the whole

25:13

world insane? Does it make everything about –

25:16

like, money transmission and financial regulation, it just

25:18

regulates everything in all the things that we

25:20

do. We're probably

25:22

money transmitting right now. I don't know how,

25:24

but we would have to be somehow involved,

25:26

maybe because we're using a router that –

25:28

like, how many connections and how many different

25:30

devices are there between your connection and mine?

25:33

Who knows? How many money transmissions are we doing right

25:35

now? I don't know. Probably fact- The

25:38

small amount of entertainment that I provide to

25:41

your show transfers value to

25:43

you because your show is sponsored. It's

25:45

money. So

25:47

clearly, there's money being exchanged here.

25:49

This is – you know, we're

25:51

felons now. We're transferring

25:53

the heat from the stove

25:56

to the food, to the

25:58

meat and potatoes of this show. So, I'm

26:01

going to meet you today. But

26:07

God, and you know, he's

26:10

got another quote says from a

26:12

non US person's perspective, it appears

26:14

that you could be arrested without

26:16

prior notification and need to defend

26:18

your case in court. If you

26:20

inadvertently found yourself in a state

26:23

of non-compliance, like think about the

26:25

psychotic level of just

26:28

like what kind of like

26:31

crazy violent asshole are you

26:33

to just

26:35

for non-compliance like

26:38

this is some huge

26:40

world shattering must

26:43

put like lock people into

26:45

a cement box for decades

26:48

because somehow your

26:50

Bitcoin node is not in

26:52

compliance with some arbitrary

26:55

bitch work like paperwork

26:58

issue from a regulatory

27:00

agency as if those are

27:02

the problems of society that this

27:04

is like a peak concern like think

27:06

about it like what kind of concerns do

27:08

we have in society? What kind of

27:11

we have poverty we have like

27:13

increasing inequality we have insane amounts

27:15

of violence we have horrible

27:17

addiction to antidepressants

27:20

and pharmaceuticals all these

27:22

things like if you put your hierarchy

27:25

on all of the

27:27

problems of society where on that

27:29

list was didn't properly fill out

27:31

the paperwork and wasn't entirely

27:33

compliant with exactly how they're

27:35

supposed to package and think

27:37

about the information data that

27:40

they send from one place

27:42

to another not even shit

27:44

that they hold on behalf of somebody else

27:46

no they don't have to do that

27:48

they don't nobody even has to

27:50

be trusting them with their value

27:52

they just might kind of

27:54

like word it the wrong way and out

27:56

of that you're not helping us buy on

27:58

people enough. You

28:01

spend decades in prison. It could

28:03

actually be used to put pedophiles

28:06

in prison, which they refuse to

28:08

prosecute. Or some jackass like Jamie

28:11

Dimon from J.P. Morgan that's keeping

28:13

God knows how many criminals in

28:15

Mafia and political funding,

28:19

funding the absolute moving

28:21

the political corruption, the

28:23

money for political corruption in insider

28:25

trading probably houses Nancy Pelosi's bank

28:28

account and sees every goddamn time

28:30

she's doing her bullshit insider trading and is probably

28:32

going over to his account and being like, oh,

28:34

I guess I should buy Tesla. We're about to

28:37

get a bill for EVs in the long rest.

28:40

God, Jesus, like, I

28:43

wouldn't even be on my list. Who gives a

28:45

fuck about noncompliance? And

28:48

there are people, lives being

28:50

destroyed. You don't

28:52

want pedophiles punished if you are

28:54

a pedophile. We were talking about

28:56

earlier today, like that video of

28:58

the, who was

29:01

it? He was like an economic advisor

29:03

or whatever, the head top economic advisor

29:05

or something for the Biden administration. Yeah.

29:09

Yeah. Yeah. Like, like he doesn't, he

29:11

doesn't understand how money is

29:13

created, how debt is created.

29:16

How bonds work or how debt, how

29:18

debt is created or why it's issued

29:20

as debt. Like they issue it as

29:22

money and then they, they, they buy

29:24

bonds and that's how they, what did

29:26

they do? Is that what they do?

29:29

How do they do it? No, yeah. Yeah. They

29:31

have bonds and then people buy

29:34

it and that's, that's debt,

29:36

I think. I don't, I don't

29:38

really understand what the MMT people were talking about, but

29:40

yeah, I don't think there's anything confusing there. Yeah.

29:43

I mean, it's, it's so ridiculous.

29:46

And, and that, you know,

29:48

you were saying like, I don't know if, go back

29:50

and forth, whether they're like evil geniuses or they're

29:53

just stupid. And, and I

29:55

think it's definitely a mix of both

29:57

because I think that. retarded

30:00

people are not just like they

30:02

don't understand how things work, but

30:04

they're also ethically and morally retarded.

30:07

So if you don't like their

30:09

morally retarded idea of how

30:11

things should work, then they'll fucking

30:13

kill you for it. So you

30:16

know, like it's not, it's like, well,

30:18

if you don't like my, you know, like, it's like

30:20

you better like what I have to say because

30:22

they're just retarded, like they're retarded. And

30:24

so like I think that

30:26

is, that is like a huge portion

30:29

of it. And then you have people

30:32

that are

30:34

really, I mean, like

30:36

truly broken people. Like I mean, George Soros

30:39

and Bill Gates and some of these people,

30:41

Bill Gates was probably like

30:43

gone terribly in school for being

30:45

a weirdo. And I mean,

30:48

like he looks like a dork like from, you know, like

30:50

in the 70s or what I mean.

30:54

Like the, the, what's the joke is that, you

30:56

know, the pie in the face video with like

30:58

the beginning of his evil world. Yeah.

31:02

Yeah. Yeah. Like

31:05

it is the beginning of

31:07

his evil supervillain, you know,

31:09

story arc. Yeah. His

31:12

origin story. I

31:14

mean, you know, like

31:16

Soros literally was a Nazi

31:18

youth. Like these people are seriously

31:20

abused and messed up. And

31:23

so you do have like these people that are literally

31:26

like, they're really intelligent, but

31:29

like monsters in terms of

31:31

their, their worldview and

31:33

enemy. Like there's some discussion about,

31:35

you know, Bill Gates' dad being

31:37

some sort of eugenicist

31:39

too, you know, like, like, you know, I

31:41

don't know, but, but I think there

31:43

is a mix of both. And,

31:45

and then there's just people with the,

31:48

like everybody responds to incentives. And

31:50

if your incentive is to

31:52

steal more and control more. And like, that's the

31:54

only way to advance your career. Like,

31:57

I mean, there are people working in.

32:00

agencies that will – they

32:02

advance their career by catching criminals. And

32:04

so if they can build a case,

32:07

they can buddy up to somebody and

32:10

build a case. And

32:13

build a case against them if they don't have any. Yeah,

32:16

you create criminals, and

32:18

you can – it

32:23

boosts your career in such a degree

32:25

you become world famous for busting this

32:27

– Mark Carpellas or whatever. Whatever

32:33

the guy

32:36

you want to choose is the top dog you

32:38

need to bust or whatever. Yeah, the guy you

32:40

choose is the bad guy, and then we're going

32:42

to figure out how to interpret the law to

32:44

make sure that we can arrest the bad guy.

32:47

So it's not the law or

32:49

the actual time informs who

32:51

should be arrested. It's about deciding who the

32:53

bad guy is. And clearly – I mean,

32:55

you look at the Samurai Wallet guys' tweets.

32:58

Correct. They're clearly bad guys.

33:00

Right. So obviously bad guys.

33:02

Right. So how do we

33:04

need to determine this law to make sure

33:06

that they are in non-compliance because they didn't

33:08

properly do their paperwork. They didn't properly ask

33:10

for the correct bullet points of information from

33:12

everybody who was their customer. And

33:15

for the terrible, terrible

33:19

violation of not

33:21

checking the right boxes, you

33:23

will be in prison for the next few

33:26

years. Not asking permission. You didn't ask our

33:28

permission. You're a bad guy. Plus five years.

33:31

Just shy of what you get

33:33

for actually building a website. Right.

33:36

Right. The

33:39

building of Silk Road or – Yeah,

33:42

right. Oh, Jesus. And

33:44

did you see that they're – he

33:47

was saying that he might lose his voice,

33:50

that they are going

33:52

to take away his access to social media so he

33:54

can't post anymore. So we can't even see his tweets

33:57

anymore. Oh,

33:59

well. Good. You know because he's he's

34:01

having he's getting too much sympathy from

34:03

the world So getting too much empathy,

34:05

you know, like There's

34:08

nothing like those those evil weed

34:10

selling websites, man I can't believe

34:12

that he's you know, he's only

34:15

had what ten years, you know,

34:17

like just like that's not even that's not even

34:19

Beginning not nearly enough not not the

34:22

we're burning in hell for at least

34:24

a thousand years here You know for

34:26

the awful awful deeds that he committed

34:30

Sure, like Capone got like well and

34:33

Julian Assange like literally the man's done nothing

34:35

but tell the truth Like

34:37

that is his that is his guilt

34:39

you know and even get a fan

34:41

your shake like he can't even get

34:44

like a like an actual

34:46

court or to like be

34:49

Be judged where it's actually relevant to

34:51

him and what is going on and

34:53

all and he revealed crimes He

34:56

revealed right murder and crimes and

34:59

like mass murder and lying us.

35:01

Yeah, but he wars none

35:03

of those He

35:06

said that he told you that Afghanistan

35:09

was supposed to be a never-ending war so

35:11

they could launder money to themselves

35:14

forever and That's

35:17

that is the crime you you've

35:19

just exposed their whole scheme And

35:22

so you're now you're now evil like you

35:24

have to be defeated. You're the bank and

35:26

figure it out later. Yeah The

35:29

band the scariest thing that Francis

35:31

said in this article there This

35:35

probably true is It

35:38

wouldn't come as a surprise

35:40

to me if non KYC

35:42

businesses eventually decided to KYC

35:44

their client clients even

35:46

when not mandated in their jurisdiction

35:50

Specifically to avoid accidentally

35:52

serving US customers Yeah,

35:55

and that is probably gonna

35:57

happen. Yeah, that makes sense

36:00

But that just means that we'll

36:02

have to build, I mean, that

36:04

means that RoboSats and BISC and

36:08

all the other things are going to have to get more

36:10

robust and more accessible.

36:12

And, you know, like that, like literally,

36:15

it is time for Bitcoin to go dark, like

36:17

it is time for... Well, it's going to suck

36:19

a little bit just because the market is going

36:21

to go dark. You're not going to be able

36:23

to find, like, if you're not connected to people

36:25

that you trust, you're not going to

36:27

be able to find the tools. Like, you know, in

36:29

the context of like, pair drive and key and the

36:31

stuff that is being built

36:33

over there and the things that are

36:35

possible with it is that we could do coin joins

36:37

with like a group of 50 or 70, you know,

36:41

trusted Bitcoiners and stuff, but we can't like

36:43

tell other people about it, you

36:46

know? Like, if it was considered,

36:48

like, even if it's just like a joint,

36:50

like private group that

36:53

is just batching their transactions,

36:55

quote unquote, and, you know,

36:58

you're getting some degree of

37:00

privacy, it's like you're not... You

37:03

can't spread the information, like, you know,

37:06

they chokehold the ability for it to

37:10

proliferate, I guess. So

37:13

that depends on how well

37:16

search works on top of noster and

37:18

key, right? Like, so right

37:21

now it's terrible. There's nothing, you

37:23

know, like, both in both

37:25

places, like, can't search for shit

37:27

on key. And you can search for shit

37:29

on noster, but you're not going to find

37:31

anything because noster searches garbage. And

37:34

so you can, like,

37:37

if we build those things out, then

37:40

as we pull people into the

37:44

decent, like, the alternative world,

37:47

you know, then it becomes just as

37:49

accessible as it is now, right? Like,

37:52

if we have... If you can access

37:54

all the information, like, it is

37:56

a problem as long as people are

37:58

on Twitter and Facebook. and

38:00

whatever because they can control

38:03

it since there any talk of the

38:05

alternative platforms too. And

38:09

you know they've already like you can't

38:11

advertise some sort of any

38:13

sort of like Bitcoin service or

38:15

anything like that on Facebook like

38:17

they just they killed all I

38:19

mean legitimately they were fighting

38:22

crypto spam but

38:25

but they they killed it all under the guise of

38:27

fighting crypto spam I mean you know it's not like

38:30

there are legitimate services and

38:33

they just now we're gonna get rid of all

38:35

of it. And

38:37

so you know

38:40

there is a problem but the thing is is that

38:42

people people are awake

38:44

enough to know that there

38:47

is I mean I get more

38:49

agreement from normies now then

38:52

then I have you

38:54

know and basically any other time in the past like

38:57

I it I say things today that

39:01

I was you know definitely

39:03

in 2010 well

39:05

I didn't keep that I'm not sure

39:07

that I ever really kept was did a good job of

39:09

keeping it to myself but I got really dramatic about how

39:11

you word it well I

39:13

got a little bit like I was crazy you

39:16

know quite often and so that's

39:18

not the case so much anymore.

39:21

A lot of people are like

39:23

yeah that makes sense you know

39:25

and and so and

39:27

they know that things they know when

39:30

stuff is like people have a

39:32

better sense of when they're being fed just

39:35

BS and so you know

39:38

it's not everybody they're still like you know 30 or 40

39:40

percent of the population it's

39:42

completely just lost their minds

39:45

but but there's

39:47

a big enough portion that

39:49

is aware at least aware that

39:52

something is wrong that as

39:56

the voices the dissonant voices

39:58

disappear I think I

40:01

mean, the noise on Twitter

40:03

and Facebook and these other things now is

40:05

painful. Like,

40:07

everybody talks about it, right? Like,

40:10

there are so many bot accounts

40:12

on Facebook, and it

40:14

doesn't make any sense. Like, I don't even

40:16

know why. Like, there seems to be no

40:18

purpose to it. They just join. They say,

40:21

like, here, I wanted to share a picture

40:23

I took. And like, they

40:25

say the same crap over and over,

40:27

and but they're

40:29

all different people. They're all different, and

40:31

it's a good enough fake that

40:35

it's, and maybe it's just, you

40:37

know, maybe it's groups, like the group leaders

40:39

on Facebook are creating them because people tend

40:42

to join groups that are bigger. You know,

40:44

I don't know. I don't know what is

40:46

creating them, what the incentive is, what's

40:49

driving it all. But it's definitely

40:51

happening, and people are complaining about it. And

40:54

so, if you can, like, that

40:57

means that they're looking for alternatives. I mean,

40:59

like, the reason that me, we, and all

41:02

these other things exist is that, you

41:04

know, we go through these waves of,

41:06

like, obvious censorship and obvious, like, problems,

41:08

and people are, like, trying, they're grasping

41:10

at something better, for something better. And

41:13

with Noster and Keet being built out the

41:15

way they are, the next time

41:17

we have one of those big waves, whether it's, you

41:20

know, during the election season, you know,

41:22

like, which is weird, we haven't heard

41:25

anything about the election. It's like, we're in an election

41:27

year, and we used

41:30

to- It's bizarrely quiet. Quiet.

41:32

Yeah, it used to be,

41:35

it was like, for a year and a half-

41:37

The atom is wrong. Like, that they can't, they

41:39

don't want to call attention to it because I

41:41

think it's going really bad for them. But,

41:45

you know, we're in an election year, so maybe it'll be at

41:47

the end of this year, maybe

41:49

it'll be next cycle, maybe it'll be

41:51

around some sort of event, you know,

41:53

some sort of false flag event, but

41:56

whenever, like, you get that wave of,

41:58

like, oh crap, there's obvious, like, people

42:00

are getting kicked off of stuff and

42:02

obvious censorship happening, then people go looking

42:04

and it's like, oh yeah, what was

42:06

that thing that Jeff and Guy

42:09

were telling us about? And

42:13

you'll get waves of this adoption. It's the same

42:15

thing as a Bitcoin price wave, right? You

42:18

get more attention drawn to these things and

42:20

then it becomes more sticky.

42:22

The more people are there, the more

42:24

good information you can get and the

42:26

more you can connect. Being

42:30

able to be zapped, being able

42:32

to be, you know, like find

42:34

ways to buy Bitcoin and secure

42:37

your money, to find like intelligent

42:39

discourse and advice on

42:41

things that you can't find on

42:43

the other platforms because they're being

42:45

censored is a huge, huge

42:47

advantage. And so

42:50

I think, you know, I mean, it's also, it's

42:53

also in some ways a negative because you're being

42:55

exposed to stuff you've never heard before. So for

42:57

some people, they're going to get there and it's

42:59

like, well, this is really uncomfortable. You know, so

43:02

I don't know. Maybe it doesn't grow,

43:04

you know, super fast. But

43:07

I mean, all of these things,

43:09

you have ways to create

43:11

your own groups and whatever.

43:13

And you can kind of isolate

43:15

yourself and then still get little bits of exposure

43:18

where, you know, at the edges, which

43:20

is how minds tend to

43:22

change. So I still think

43:24

like biggest limitation right now.

43:27

And I hope even outside

43:29

of like direct privacy tools,

43:32

like despite the fact that I think like

43:34

really privacy tools are incredibly important from

43:36

the context of like getting anonymity and

43:39

getting, you know, payment privacy and all

43:41

of these things, I actually think it's

43:44

just as important to

43:46

to think about how

43:48

do we provide services without

43:50

being public, without having like how do we

43:53

make how do we do that easily? And

43:56

I think that's a huge drawback because I talk about like

43:58

one of the tweets that I did. We're like let

44:00

the Uncle Drem's rise or something and

44:03

which was you know part supposed to be

44:05

funny But part like like this is a

44:07

solution This show is brought

44:09

to you by the cold card Hardware wallet

44:12

because you should be holding your own keys And

44:14

if you are not if you if

44:16

you have reached this point, and you're still

44:19

not holding your own keys You

44:21

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44:23

you somewhere I went terribly terribly wrong because you

44:25

don't have a cold card and you aren't have

44:27

it you holding your own keys and You

44:31

still have it on an exchange You

44:33

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44:35

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44:37

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44:40

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44:42

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There are so many options at

45:00

coin kite I was actually just

45:02

talking to my brother on the

45:04

phone before we got on this

45:06

show About the tap signer

45:08

because he's thinking about getting tap signers

45:10

I think I finally sold him on

45:12

it because I love my tap signer

45:14

setup It's just an absolute blast, but

45:16

these are just all of the amazing

45:19

tools And hardware

45:21

security devices that coin kite has at

45:23

their store and you can use

45:25

my Discount Bitcoin audible

45:27

to get a discount on these things and

45:29

everything and the cold card Whether

45:32

or not that'd be the mark for or the cold

45:34

card to you You have to check them out you

45:36

have to secure your Bitcoin you have to hold your

45:39

own keys And it is not a trade-off anymore the

45:41

convenience. It's so easy, and it's so

45:44

fun I love I love my

45:46

tap to pay the link is right there in the

45:48

show notes so that you can join me on Our

45:51

holding our own keys easy to use

45:54

Super secure setups that's

45:56

how Bitcoin is meant to be all

45:59

right Let's jump back in. But we

46:02

have not properly built the tools

46:04

or even slightly geared the tools

46:07

toward letting people

46:10

work off of us. Letting

46:12

the people who know Bitcoin in their social

46:14

circles with friends and family be kind

46:17

of like the service providing center

46:20

for all of those people. And

46:23

we can do that. That

46:25

is entirely possible and

46:27

an incredibly more

46:30

decentralized way to scale it.

46:32

That would be the best path. But

46:36

I feel like are we just sitting

46:39

on these tools? The

46:42

degree of complication and

46:45

continuous frustration that I have had

46:47

of just using my Start

46:49

9 remotely. That's

46:52

great on my local network. It's

46:55

fantastic. It's literally fantastic. I love it. I

46:58

always have it open. I have the tab

47:00

open right now to my mempool.space. I use

47:02

it every single day. But as soon as

47:04

I leave this network, it all

47:06

sucks. I have to connect

47:09

over tour. And I've

47:11

got, even with Bitcoin mechanic,

47:14

you were in the conversation with us talking about

47:17

like Lightning Node Connect and using Lightning

47:19

Terminal on top of L&D. That

47:22

worked. He seems to have much better

47:24

success with it than I have. And

47:26

I don't know if it's my Zeus instance

47:28

or something, but it's like constantly crashing.

47:30

I've tried to send zaps from it

47:32

because I've had to move away. I

47:35

took Phoenix out as my default Go to

47:38

Zap wallet. And

47:40

now it goes to Zeus. And

47:43

it doesn't... I've tried

47:45

to do like three zaps. I think one went through. And

47:48

it would just like give me an error and

47:50

then I have to close the app and reopen

47:52

it and reestablish a connection. And then like randomly

47:55

it didn't do it. And like, I'd like log

47:57

in on my browser and I am LAN right

47:59

now. on my home network, but

48:01

I don't think Lightning No Connect works

48:04

that way anyway. So it's like, it would

48:06

work whether or not it's here or remotely. But,

48:08

what do you... I'm still just

48:10

using wallet of Satoshi on a VPN for

48:13

Zap. So

48:15

like, for the

48:17

first time, I opened it the other

48:19

day and it said, you're not in a serviceable

48:21

region. I was like, oh crap.

48:23

Like, I hadn't seen that. And so I knew it

48:25

was out of the app stores or whatever. And so

48:27

I just went and changed from a VPN to Switzerland

48:30

or somewhere. And then, you

48:32

know, all of a sudden, it works just like normal. So

48:36

whatever. I mean like... I

48:39

want you to know, I want you to feel really guilty

48:41

about this because you

48:44

just said this publicly and the wallet of

48:46

Satoshi guys are about to get arrested. I'm

48:50

sorry. I'm not saying, I'm

48:52

not saying, US customer as a money

48:55

transmitter and not KYC of you. But

48:59

it's sort of

49:01

funny, like sad. No, it's actually scary.

49:03

It's extremely real, you know? Now

49:07

they have to lock their PMs.

49:11

Yeah. Yeah,

49:14

I mean, well, and how do you even do

49:16

that? Like with any sort of... Oh

49:18

yeah. Sure. Of

49:20

course not. So, yeah,

49:23

I don't know. No, it's

49:26

a mess. I

49:30

think the... What

49:33

were you just saying? You were saying... I

49:37

was praying for it. I'm talking about like the

49:39

Uncle Jim model and making software. Like

49:42

Ellen Bank was like a really great tool. And

49:45

that's the other thing too, is that like I don't want to like

49:47

put the obligation on everybody else because like a

49:49

bunch of people made like really cool... Like Ellen

49:51

Bitts, Ellen Bank would be really cool. And what

49:54

you were saying was projects, then Ellen Bank got

49:56

like a critical bug, a bunch of people lost

49:58

some money and they just like... shut

50:00

it down. And like I feel to them,

50:02

you know, like that sucks. And you did

50:04

this for free. And Ellen

50:07

bits is like, then a graveyard,

50:09

like half done projects. Yeah,

50:12

well, the thing is, is start nine, we

50:15

know this start nine has been working in

50:17

this direction for a long time. And software

50:19

development just takes time. And especially when you're

50:21

trying to solve a hard problem. So they're

50:23

gonna have, you know, they're

50:26

gonna have routing, a routing solution

50:28

that is not core that,

50:30

you know, like, we're right on the edge

50:32

of that. And so we already

50:34

got it. Well, here, we do have this.

50:37

Use pair, damn it. Damn it. Use pair.

50:39

But even even what you know,

50:43

supposedly, you know, according to them,

50:45

is that are nine. Yeah, yeah,

50:47

they've got us. Yeah, their solution

50:50

is, is, you

50:52

know, a couple updates away. And

50:54

so, so I mean, whatever,

50:57

like whether, yes,

50:59

I agree, like we've got, like

51:01

pair is the solution. But even

51:03

if only brand

51:06

new, right? We're talking over time, everybody,

51:08

by the way, like, we're using this,

51:10

we're using pay right now, this is a

51:12

pure conversation. So that's how we do things. It

51:14

is. But, but

51:17

the I mean, all of this is,

51:19

is, like, again,

51:22

pairs brand new, like it

51:24

was just open source to what,

51:26

like a month ago. And whatever

51:28

it was, February 14, it was

51:30

the launch. Yeah, it

51:33

hasn't been any time. Two months and

51:35

some change. And

51:37

for the people that think that, you know, oh my

51:40

god, the tethers, this corrupt thing, this

51:42

funding, all this stuff, like,

51:44

you know, pair, the project is

51:46

a 2014 project, it's been,

51:50

Mavintas has been building this since 2014. Like this is not,

51:55

this is not like record that protocol

51:57

before that, like it's just like it's

51:59

a whole It's

52:03

truly B-cash logic to say

52:05

that because somebody

52:08

gave them some money, they're

52:11

now captured when their

52:13

goal is the whole entire time.

52:17

The funding, they've already built the

52:19

majority of it for

52:21

a decade and some change. They

52:25

had the proof of work and somebody

52:27

tried to fund it and they're

52:30

like, oh my God, this is great because

52:32

they have proof that they can do this. And

52:35

then people are like, oh, well,

52:37

clearly it's three letter agencies

52:40

are doing this. It's

52:42

nonsense. It makes sense.

52:45

It makes sense to be

52:47

skeptical. But I

52:49

don't understand being skeptical and

52:52

choosing to remain uninformed about

52:54

it, not checking

52:57

when you have something that could potentially like, like

53:00

Pearrun everything, the entire stack that

53:02

all of this runs on is

53:04

entirely open source. And there's not

53:06

like some secret sauce in Keat

53:09

that makes it work and like it doesn't work in Pearrun. Like

53:12

Pearrun time is entirely open source. Whole

53:14

Punch is entirely open source. The core,

53:17

all of the entire foundation of all

53:19

of this is entirely open source. And

53:21

we built a tiny little

53:23

chat app between me and

53:26

Hope that was a very first time

53:28

digging up. I participated.

53:30

Oh yeah. Yeah. In

53:32

the terminal chat app. We had messages though. And

53:34

like, I don't

53:37

even know, it took him like no time at all.

53:39

And we were just updating a terminal file and we

53:41

basically had a root emitter, like a really, I mean,

53:44

basically like IRC. So that's about the

53:46

degree of IRC sophistication.

53:50

Was just a terminal. But it was peer to peer. But it

53:52

was peer to peer. Again, so

53:55

there's no secret sauce that Keat has that like they have

53:57

like a special networking trick that you can't do it unless

53:59

you're using it. using Keat. No, Keat is just

54:01

a chat app on top of it. They've

54:04

just got fancy icons and a

54:06

user-friendly interface. That's literally all Keat is. And it's

54:08

going to be open source too. It's the beginning

54:11

that version one is going to be open source,

54:13

one is done. But they don't want

54:15

people building on their modules. There

54:17

were two reasons that, uh, maps specific, because I

54:19

have asked and they've talked about them a couple

54:22

of different times because one of the things

54:24

that got me a year ago

54:26

when really all of this kicked off was that

54:28

Nostra had a ton of momentum and

54:30

the Keat whole... And because it was open,

54:33

they had more developers. Because they were closed.

54:35

I mean, whole punch wasn't. But whole punch

54:37

is confusing and it's got like a bunch

54:39

of different pieces and it's not like super

54:41

intuitive when you get to learn it. Nostra

54:43

is like dirt simple, you know, so it's

54:45

like really easy to basically pick it

54:47

up and run. And

54:50

so Nostra had a lot of momentum and a

54:52

lot of activity very early on. Whereas, uh, uh,

54:55

Keat, uh, Keat didn't. But

54:58

I understand now why because they

55:00

had to... They've rewritten so much

55:04

multiple times through this. Like the Alpha and

55:06

the Beta weren't even compatible because they had

55:08

to rebuild the engine kind of from the

55:11

ground up and it makes people

55:13

excited. They didn't want people building on stuff.

55:15

Then they're going to break. And, you know,

55:17

gaining momentum on something that they were going

55:19

to destroy and then get everybody disenfranchised with

55:21

it. Be like, this is stupid.

55:23

This is like none of this is

55:25

even stable. None of it's compatible. It's

55:27

all just keeps breaking because they've had

55:29

breaking changes constantly. He says they're getting

55:31

really close to feeling like it's cohesive.

55:33

Like it's working. They've done it, like

55:35

tested it in the background of like

55:37

at scale and they think they can

55:39

do this to millions now. Like they

55:42

think they have the secret

55:44

sauce. And we talk about this in

55:46

the episode that I recorded yesterday with

55:48

them. But, uh, uh,

55:51

that's like Linus's first rule of kernel

55:53

development, right? Is like don't break user

55:55

space. Yeah. So until they get it

55:57

to the point where they update. don't

56:00

break user space because they've got the

56:02

protocol spec and built

56:05

out to the point that it will do

56:07

all the things they plan to do, then

56:09

it doesn't make sense to share it and

56:12

have people building on it. And if they've been working

56:14

on it, what, 12, 10 plus years already? What

56:19

the hell is another six months? What's another year? Right.

56:22

There's nothing to tackle. Nina's like, you

56:24

got to... This was always a slow

56:26

and steady wins the race. This was

56:28

always a tortoise mission, not

56:31

the hare. So,

56:33

yeah, but anyway, that was a

56:35

kind of distraction. But I think

56:37

what we've been talking about today, well,

56:39

like we've been saying all day today, today's a

56:41

white pill day. White pill day. With

56:44

all the bad stuff that has been

56:46

happening in the last week, there's enough

56:49

positive developments

56:54

and enough things that I

56:56

see in response to all of this that

56:59

make me very hopeful for

57:01

where we're going. I

57:04

have days where it's like, shit,

57:07

all the things, they're black pill days. All

57:11

sorts of bad things are coming down the

57:13

pipe or whatever. But

57:16

I think, I really do think we're going to

57:18

win. I

57:20

think it's inevitable to some degree as long as

57:22

everybody keeps working on it. It's only as everybody

57:25

is dedicated the way that they are. And

57:28

that doesn't mean... I

57:32

think there's another thing to point out here

57:34

too, is to

57:37

remember the difference between an

57:40

anti-fragile system and then

57:42

thinking that just everything is just good

57:44

for Bitcoin and we have to do

57:46

nothing. It's to understand what it means

57:48

when we say or suggest, which I

57:50

assume you are just because we had

57:52

this conversation a hundred times, that

57:55

Bitcoin is going to win. It

57:58

is not to say that we're going to win. We do nothing.

58:00

It's to set the response. Yeah, absolutely not.

58:04

It's that an anti-fragile system is

58:07

something where we change our behavior

58:09

and we shift our focus when

58:12

we recognize what the largest

58:14

priority problem is. And

58:16

I think privacy, we've been really

58:18

complacent. Privacy hasn't

58:21

been necessary because we haven't been under attack.

58:25

It's a whole lot more fun to

58:27

build something that is some

58:30

explicit feature that allows us

58:32

to use it more, that gets us

58:34

excited about getting payments for the entire

58:37

world, for getting

58:40

instant and cheap payments in Bitcoin.

58:43

And basically showing them, oh my God, the

58:45

UTXO and the block size limit is not

58:47

our limitation. We fixed it. We are going

58:50

to do it. We've got a 50X scaling.

58:52

We've got another one that's going to do a 10X on top

58:54

of that. And so we

58:57

want to build the features. We want to build the fun

59:00

and cool things. But just

59:02

like doing the same thing with privacy,

59:04

it's really difficult. It's

59:07

extremely difficult. And at the end of the day,

59:09

it doesn't really change anything. And it might even

59:11

be slightly more expensive. So we want to figure

59:13

out how to make it less expensive. So that's

59:15

a gargantuan amount of work

59:18

that's largely

59:21

thankless and

59:24

not really deciding and

59:26

dangerous and dangerous. And

59:29

when we're not being attacked, it doesn't feel

59:31

like a major concern. But

59:35

the antifragility of Bitcoin

59:38

is that the incentives are such that we're

59:40

going to finally get off our asses and do

59:42

something about it and we're going to focus on

59:44

it. And that's going to be what we talk

59:46

about. And that's going to be the tools that

59:48

we test because zaps

59:51

are cool. Privacy is

59:53

necessary. We

59:55

need it. And we don't want to end up

59:57

in a system where we can't bring it back.

1:00:00

we've irreparably lost it. Now,

1:00:03

luckily, I think the most pressing

1:00:07

issue or characteristic of

1:00:10

Bitcoin that ensures

1:00:12

we will one day have privacy is

1:00:15

permissionlessness, which is also

1:00:17

why the mining problem and the mining center

1:00:19

like this is what I talk about with

1:00:22

the mechanic, which I guess

1:00:24

that episode will be next Wednesday. So

1:00:28

keep an ear out for that one, guys. We had a really fun

1:00:33

sobering conversation about Bitcoin mining and the

1:00:35

ecosystem and the mining pools and all

1:00:37

of that stuff. But

1:00:40

that's one of the most

1:00:43

pressing concerns, I think, also

1:00:45

around the privacy issue, because

1:00:49

permissionlessness is the

1:00:51

most important thing for enabling us to

1:00:54

achieve privacy. If

1:00:57

we have gatekeepers to

1:00:59

the access and use of Bitcoin, then

1:01:02

we've got a problem, because then we can't,

1:01:05

quote unquote, implement the

1:01:07

privacy solution. But

1:01:10

because we still have an open

1:01:12

permissionless global network, we

1:01:14

always have the capacity to solve

1:01:16

this. And I

1:01:19

don't know, and we start combining it

1:01:21

doesn't necessarily need a, you

1:01:24

know, major scripting update, I think people

1:01:27

discount a, incremental

1:01:29

improvements and be the

1:01:32

scope of things that are possible within the

1:01:34

limitations we already have. Well,

1:01:36

and be combining all of the tools

1:01:38

that we now have, like, we've

1:01:41

had years and years of people building

1:01:43

up all these individual projects, it

1:01:45

all have potential to be combined. Like,

1:01:48

you can put payer behind a wallet,

1:01:50

right? Like, you can put payer, you

1:01:52

know, behind a lot of the mining

1:01:55

pool, you know, you can have, you

1:01:57

can have all sorts of communications happen.

1:02:00

and that are

1:02:02

happening over in a decentralized way now, you

1:02:06

change things with Noster or anything else, right?

1:02:08

Like you have a new way to connect

1:02:11

using, whether it's a hub and

1:02:13

spoke model or more peer-to-peer

1:02:15

like Payer that

1:02:19

are uncensorable and fast

1:02:21

and allow for

1:02:24

all sorts of encrypted communication and whatever

1:02:26

to happen without anybody, anybody

1:02:29

being aware

1:02:32

of what's going on, if you

1:02:34

don't want them to be. And

1:02:36

so combining these things unlocks

1:02:40

new levels of awesomeness, right? This

1:02:44

goes back to the Uncle Jim thing is

1:02:46

that I think our focus, we

1:02:49

really need to, rather than

1:02:51

thinking about privacy, necessarily

1:02:54

directly like, oh, we need to

1:02:56

combine signatures and we need some

1:02:58

new cryptographic trick and we need

1:03:01

confidential transactions is what

1:03:03

we could actually massively assist

1:03:06

this problem just

1:03:08

by letting someone kind

1:03:10

of like in my position or your

1:03:12

position host

1:03:15

and be like a state chain

1:03:17

and a lightning node for 20 friends.

1:03:22

That, if you could do

1:03:24

that 10,000 times, that's

1:03:27

massive, that's a huge shift in

1:03:30

the degree of surveillance and the

1:03:32

degree of privacy and kind of

1:03:34

the wall between, like

1:03:38

centralized institutions and centralized

1:03:40

service providers are

1:03:42

the major surveillance vulnerabilities.

1:03:45

They are the major points of

1:03:47

attack. One

1:03:50

of the things that we can do

1:03:52

and that is completely solvable by software

1:03:54

and by the people in Bitcoin who

1:03:56

do understand how to use it and

1:03:58

play with these tools. and

1:04:00

can take on that responsibility because they know

1:04:02

how to do a seed phrase, they know

1:04:05

how to do multi-sig, and

1:04:07

can actually provide, quote-unquote, non-custodial assistance

1:04:09

and wallet provision for a bunch

1:04:12

of their friends and family. Like,

1:04:14

if we took that on and

1:04:16

targeted that as how we should

1:04:19

design the software, we

1:04:21

could actually accomplish that. And

1:04:24

that would be massive for destroying

1:04:27

that obvious –

1:04:29

kind of the honeypot of

1:04:32

the surveillance problem. And

1:04:34

I don't see that as unrealistic. I

1:04:36

see it as something that we felt

1:04:38

like we didn't need to do, and

1:04:40

there was no monetary incentive to do

1:04:43

because it's easier to build – UI

1:04:46

comes with profitable companies. You

1:04:48

know? Like, a good UX comes with companies

1:04:50

that are making a profit. Open

1:04:53

source creates incredible functionality and

1:04:55

dogshit UX. Like, that

1:04:57

is 99% true. Not

1:05:00

always true, but 99% of the time, that's true. And

1:05:04

I don't know what that means. Like, is it

1:05:06

we need to find a new way to reach

1:05:10

the software, so to speak? Like,

1:05:15

how do we provide? How do we monetize the

1:05:17

software without the platforms? You know,

1:05:19

maybe – geez, not to be a broken

1:05:22

freakin' record, but a

1:05:25

pair. I don't know. You could sell

1:05:28

software without platforms and without centralized

1:05:31

entities and just deliver it over

1:05:33

pair. Well, this

1:05:35

is totally – I mean, like, I'm just off

1:05:37

the top of my head. It's

1:05:39

not hard to imagine. We're not there yet.

1:05:42

But it's not hard to imagine having some

1:05:44

sort of multi-sig arrangement in a pair –

1:05:46

I mean, in a key room, like, say,

1:05:48

the Bitcoin room, right? There's like 1,500 or

1:05:50

– however many people in the Bitcoin room.

1:05:56

Oh, the two – whatever. So, whatever the number is. If

1:06:01

you can have some multisig arrangement

1:06:03

where the admins can

1:06:05

provably lock a certain amount

1:06:07

of Bitcoin to this

1:06:10

room and then attach it to

1:06:12

an e-cash mint

1:06:15

that runs on top of Keat. You

1:06:18

can connect a wallet or something to

1:06:20

Keat. You can exchange tokens, and

1:06:23

you can see that if you're a part of this

1:06:25

room, you can see there's some

1:06:27

sort of cryptographic proof that, okay, the

1:06:30

Bitcoin are here. Here's how

1:06:32

many tokens have been issued against it or whatever.

1:06:34

I mean, there's still a degree of trust

1:06:37

in all of that, but

1:06:39

it's not hard to imagine

1:06:41

building a system where you've

1:06:43

got some proof of this

1:06:45

happening. The

1:06:47

money is there, and there's a fair

1:06:50

trade going on, and the

1:06:53

money moves seamlessly across the decentralized

1:06:55

network. And then you can do

1:06:57

the same thing. You can have

1:07:00

people move in and out of this via

1:07:03

Lightning or some other – you

1:07:05

can have the

1:07:07

peers that are a part of this system build

1:07:09

bridges to other things and take

1:07:11

on the risk of swapping if there

1:07:13

is any risk. And that is

1:07:15

a way to scale all of this. The

1:07:23

Fedeman and e-cash is really underappreciated, I

1:07:25

believe. Yeah. That's a

1:07:27

way to scale all of this in a private way

1:07:29

that nobody can control. And you

1:07:31

can apply that same logic to –

1:07:33

you can apply it as the same

1:07:35

thing to a mining

1:07:38

pool, right? Like,

1:07:40

you know, it's ocean – ocean is

1:07:42

paying out over Lightning now, which

1:07:44

is fantastic. The one problem on

1:07:47

the Lightning pool thing is that

1:07:49

the scale is so

1:07:51

important. It's like if you can do it

1:07:54

at, you know, 1% of the

1:07:56

hash rate, which let's say that's

1:07:58

– 200

1:08:01

participants 300 participants is it

1:08:03

like that's an insanely difficult like

1:08:07

organizing Orchestration, you know

1:08:09

Like the mining pool thing is a very

1:08:11

very hard one because 1% of the hash

1:08:13

rate is still just a crappy pool Like

1:08:17

it's not good to be in it

1:08:20

So part of a small pool, right

1:08:22

the the architecture of that though the

1:08:24

multi-sig thing and sediment I believe is

1:08:26

a much easier problem to

1:08:28

solve and a lot of the tools

1:08:30

a lot of people have already solved

1:08:32

and a Huge number of those problems

1:08:34

actually in a really interesting way The

1:08:38

mining pool mining. I know I

1:08:41

know of a small of a group.

1:08:44

It's trying to do it and I

1:08:47

know I know there's discussions about

1:08:49

it on sediment because

1:08:52

Not even with like my e-cash but

1:08:55

just because sediment actually built a really

1:08:57

cool peer-to-peer protocol But then I

1:08:59

also know about it on pair. So I have

1:09:02

high hopes I have well, I don't have

1:09:04

high hopes I have hopes One

1:09:08

of the solves the

1:09:10

at scale problem of

1:09:12

proper of genuine p2

1:09:14

pool that distributes

1:09:18

and properly organizes

1:09:21

in a very efficient and essentially

1:09:23

no fee way a large

1:09:28

set of Tashers

1:09:30

of miners and that can

1:09:32

actually organize in a sort of like join market

1:09:35

sense And actually compete

1:09:37

with really big pools. I

1:09:39

think well and the reason that's hard the reason

1:09:41

I'm Well, it is it's

1:09:43

a very hard problem But I think

1:09:45

there are more reasons to be bullish than that.

1:09:47

And I mean again, this is all like I

1:09:49

mean I'm Using

1:09:52

my imagination here like, you know theoretical,

1:09:55

but if we have say

1:09:58

three other hardware manufacturers that

1:10:00

are working toward a product and you

1:10:02

know, you know, it takes five

1:10:04

years to get there or whatever and we're

1:10:06

we should be fairly close to that because

1:10:08

they they've announced it, you know, years ago.

1:10:10

So, you know, if we

1:10:12

have three other hardware manufacturers, they're gonna make

1:10:15

some sort of more standardized hardware maybe, you

1:10:17

know, maybe something, maybe even something that's more

1:10:19

consumer friendly. And you

1:10:22

can take, take a dent

1:10:24

out of Bitmain's monopoly on that. Yes,

1:10:27

yes, that's a huge, huge,

1:10:29

huge benefit. But

1:10:31

then you can take one of those hardware

1:10:34

devices and you can

1:10:36

plug it in and easily

1:10:39

keep your water, dry

1:10:42

your clothes. Like, like, I mean, I

1:10:44

looked at this on a

1:10:46

dryer here and it's

1:10:49

not gonna be hard for me to set this up. Like,

1:10:51

I'm, that is one of the things that I'm gonna work

1:10:53

on in the coming months is

1:10:55

I don't know how many heat exchangers and I

1:10:57

don't know if I need to stack like three

1:10:59

in a row to get the air all the

1:11:01

way up to the, you know, like within one

1:11:04

degree of whatever the peak water,

1:11:06

you know, the peak coolant temperature I

1:11:08

can get out of the miners. And

1:11:12

maybe that means the dryer will take twice

1:11:14

as long, you know, I don't know. It's

1:11:17

certainly not like having, you know,

1:11:19

a bunch of nichrome wire in the back

1:11:21

of your dryer like

1:11:23

glowing but

1:11:26

if it works at all, which

1:11:29

I don't see why it wouldn't, then

1:11:32

you're recouping

1:11:35

costs for drying your

1:11:37

clothes and for heating your water and

1:11:40

for heating your house. And

1:11:42

that you have to

1:11:45

do those things anyway. So

1:11:47

you can do those things, you can mine at

1:11:49

a loss and join these

1:11:51

pools and the more

1:11:53

people that you, like, these mining,

1:11:55

these miners are cheaper than the heating

1:11:58

units that you have to buy. Like

1:12:00

a miner and a split

1:12:03

AC unit together. Well, it's one that's not

1:12:06

going to give you much. Like

1:12:09

if you're talking about like an S9 or something, like

1:12:12

you're... No, no. What

1:12:14

I'm saying is, even if you spend... If

1:12:19

you spent the same amount that you were going to spend

1:12:22

on replacing a whole unit, you

1:12:25

could still... You could

1:12:27

get a substantial amount of

1:12:29

mining, right? Yeah,

1:12:33

because I specifically, like my

1:12:35

What's Miners, I spent $1,200

1:12:37

on and it was going to cost me $7,000 to

1:12:40

replace my heating unit when it broke. I

1:12:44

thought you said more than that, but yeah, sure. No,

1:12:46

it was about $7,000. But

1:12:50

still, that's a huge price difference.

1:12:52

You have to lose money on it

1:12:54

for a really, really long time. So

1:12:57

people can do this at a loss, and

1:12:59

if you could literally create a

1:13:02

business of

1:13:04

just advertising that, hey, we can repair

1:13:07

your heating system or update your

1:13:09

system with... You might earn

1:13:12

a little Bitcoin in the process. I

1:13:14

mean, the thing is, is like, I don't

1:13:17

know how for Zach Bomsch's

1:13:20

plan and Unbounded Networks, I

1:13:23

still want to see where that goes. That's

1:13:26

a really exciting idea. There is a lot

1:13:28

of nuance. Listen,

1:13:32

there's a lot of what ifs, there's a lot

1:13:34

of... But

1:13:37

yeah. But

1:13:41

it is definitely a possibility.

1:13:43

It's plausible. Yeah, and actually

1:13:45

a degree of, like, at

1:13:48

some point, if you

1:13:51

aren't using mining for heating, you might

1:13:53

not be viable. You're wasting.

1:13:55

Right, right. You might not be... you

1:14:00

might actually be priced out of the market

1:14:02

because being able to do

1:14:04

that means that especially

1:14:08

when we kind of get

1:14:11

commoditized hardware and the price

1:14:13

hash power I think

1:14:16

leaves the kind of arms race

1:14:18

zone that it's still

1:14:21

kind of in and has been in for

1:14:23

a long time where

1:14:25

the improvements are just so huge

1:14:27

that the two years old,

1:14:29

three year old models are just kind of like

1:14:32

useless. Yeah,

1:14:34

we get more commoditized hardware and

1:14:38

you have, I mean, you know, if we trust

1:14:41

what we see in videos or whatever

1:14:44

online, like there's a spy

1:14:46

in New York that's like killing it because

1:14:48

he's heating his pools or

1:14:50

whatever with Bitcoin miners, right?

1:14:53

So like it just

1:14:55

makes sense that if you can recoup

1:14:57

anything like the

1:14:59

bigger your need for heat is,

1:15:02

like maybe it won't make sense at a

1:15:04

residential level, I don't know, but

1:15:07

if you're a business that you keep for some

1:15:09

time. It depends on what your heat source is.

1:15:12

If you have gas, if you have natural

1:15:14

gas, I think it

1:15:17

doesn't make sense because like my bill now

1:15:19

with the miners, it's quite a bit more

1:15:21

and I think I'm

1:15:23

still actually paying more per

1:15:26

bill after you take

1:15:29

out what I'm mining. Even if you take

1:15:31

out what you're earning. But I think about

1:15:33

it is I'm getting, I'm allegedly,

1:15:36

I already lost my keys,

1:15:38

but I'm allegedly getting, you

1:15:40

know, private Bitcoin. Yeah. And

1:15:44

allegedly, but

1:15:46

so I think I'm still I

1:15:48

am actually probably losing money just

1:15:50

on the bill. Not much, but

1:15:53

the bill is enough higher. I

1:15:56

haven't done the math on it. I do want to actually like

1:15:58

chart it out and see exactly what it is. Like

1:16:00

you said you started with less efficient

1:16:02

miners, and I also have pretty Unefficient

1:16:06

in the in that context and you know

1:16:08

using 220 plug and like it's their their

1:16:10

data or their energy hogs But

1:16:14

yeah, it's fascinating It's

1:16:17

still incredibly viable especially from the context or

1:16:19

like I saved seven thousand dollars, so Regardless

1:16:24

of I think it will be

1:16:26

about the lifespan of the explicit miners that I have

1:16:28

because probably what I'll do is I'll sell them Maybe

1:16:31

when there's kind of an opportunity in the market and

1:16:33

then buy it's getting hot now So I'm not even

1:16:35

like running them hardly at all which is sad right

1:16:37

like I feel really bad about I want to I

1:16:39

want To cut them on but then I don't want

1:16:42

to record in like 80 degree down here So

1:16:47

But nonetheless there's an extremely

1:16:50

interesting economic dynamic there that I

1:16:52

think is not It's

1:16:54

not a simple Like

1:16:56

over a long enough time and with

1:16:59

commoditized hardware I think that market if

1:17:02

we can solve the coordination problem if

1:17:04

we can solve the splitting up of

1:17:06

the lottery ticket problem Which is

1:17:08

the mining pool problem? Because

1:17:11

that is a huge centralizing force it is

1:17:13

a layer on top. Yes, but

1:17:15

nonetheless. It is a centralizing force and But

1:17:19

that's what I'm saying about like that problem.

1:17:21

You can think my you can lock generally

1:17:23

will tend to sort itself out That's

1:17:26

what I'm saying if you can lock Bitcoin into a room or

1:17:28

into a some

1:17:32

sort of you know little network of

1:17:35

peers and provably then

1:17:37

you have one transaction that you need

1:17:39

to make as a mind as like

1:17:41

that the Admin of a mining pool

1:17:43

or whatever and then you

1:17:45

can send out your your your e-cash

1:17:47

to all of your All

1:17:50

of your miners or whatever you know like it's it

1:17:53

can definitely these can definitely be

1:17:55

done It's I see

1:17:57

it is it is absolutely a difficult Haven't

1:18:00

haven't done it on it in a while, but now that it's

1:18:02

like coming around Oh, I should contact somebody I need to get

1:18:04

somebody on the show to talk about state chains Because

1:18:07

yeah, that is also blind. It's essentially

1:18:09

like ecash because the

1:18:11

blind signature so it's

1:18:14

extremely private and You

1:18:17

actually have exit capability like

1:18:19

you have the unilateral ability

1:18:21

to exit outside

1:18:24

of the I think the What's

1:18:27

there is there is it like trade-off there and I can't remember

1:18:30

exactly what it is That's that's why I need to do another

1:18:32

episode of the same But yeah,

1:18:34

you should because I had completely forgotten about state

1:18:36

chains even though Yeah,

1:18:39

I didn't I didn't even know that that was like

1:18:41

something that was still in development really Yeah, I keep

1:18:43

a lot of these things and that's all but they

1:18:45

pop out every time every now and then I'm like

1:18:48

Oh, oh a new thing. It's coming back. It's coming

1:18:50

back Well, that's like that's the thing like when

1:18:52

you hear two years ago or something like that shit was like ages

1:18:54

ago Yeah, I

1:18:56

think I literally think state chains we

1:18:58

were talking about that before Like

1:19:01

that was around the time that the lightning network

1:19:03

went live Like we were

1:19:05

talking about that before coke. I mean

1:19:08

originally the the idea Yes, but the

1:19:10

the test net wallet that I use

1:19:13

And got my first state chain coins, which

1:19:15

I think it's a habit. I don't think

1:19:17

I remember that at all I don't remember.

1:19:20

I don't know if I don't know

1:19:22

if I participated with you. It's kind of cool I was like

1:19:24

wow. Well that works Yeah

1:19:29

but But regardless,

1:19:31

um, I still it kind of

1:19:33

goes back to the original thing is that I

1:19:35

think we're not properly using the tools that we

1:19:37

have and we're we're

1:19:40

trying Really hard and

1:19:42

I don't mean this and I do not

1:19:44

mean this in like a judgmental sense It's

1:19:46

like you should be doing it this way

1:19:49

and you should be you should be building

1:19:51

dish instead of this like like it's on

1:19:53

me Like I am specifically I am trying

1:19:55

to contribute. I'm doing it in my kind

1:19:58

of messy slow. I think it's gonna to

1:20:00

be next week in it six months from

1:20:02

now away, but I'm trying.

1:20:04

I am actually trying to build stuff

1:20:06

with this and put some of this

1:20:08

freaking capital to work to help solve

1:20:10

these problems and God bless, I hope

1:20:12

I have something to share soonish.

1:20:16

I think it just happened.

1:20:20

The truth of the matter is that when you

1:20:22

hear about something, you hear about the idea of

1:20:24

what was it, the arc

1:20:26

or whatever the... Yeah, arc, the brek. All

1:20:32

these things that we hear about, people

1:20:34

get interested in this idea coming out,

1:20:37

you just have to assume that three

1:20:39

to five years from now, there'll be

1:20:41

a usable product because that's

1:20:45

the problem. It just takes that long to

1:20:48

really develop something that is meaningful

1:20:51

and robust

1:20:53

enough for everybody to use. That's

1:20:56

why it always seems like... The

1:21:00

fact that we heard a whole bunch of

1:21:02

stuff in the last couple of years, a

1:21:05

whole bunch of new ideas means that in

1:21:07

three years from now, we're going

1:21:09

to have... In the

1:21:11

middle of the bear market, the next bear market, we're going to

1:21:13

have... Yeah,

1:21:17

it's always in the bear market. It's always

1:21:19

in the bear market. You finally get releases

1:21:21

and it's nothing but bad news in the

1:21:23

price and then you're like, oh, this is

1:21:26

finally out. Everybody finally releases things. This happens

1:21:28

every bear market. It really does

1:21:30

happen like that. All the tech gets

1:21:32

exciting in the bear market. I'm actually...

1:21:34

In the middle of the bear market, we're going to have

1:21:36

all the things and

1:21:39

it's going to

1:21:41

be great. It's

1:21:44

a white pill day. We've got a

1:21:47

lot of good things happening. I think it's also...

1:21:49

I think there's two perspective

1:21:52

pieces or elements

1:21:54

of perspective to take away from this. One

1:21:58

is actually what Francis... said

1:22:00

at the end of the article. This

1:22:02

is the sovereign individual thesis playing out. In

1:22:05

the digital age, entrepreneurs will go where they

1:22:07

are best treated. Our

1:22:10

ability to move and deploy

1:22:13

capital and basically

1:22:16

shift where we are in the world to

1:22:19

find the environment that is best

1:22:22

for us has never been

1:22:24

as great as it is today. The

1:22:27

thesis of the

1:22:29

sovereign individual, the thesis of the economics of

1:22:32

violence is that people will

1:22:34

leave, is that they will lose

1:22:36

the access to capital because it

1:22:38

is capital flight, the inability

1:22:40

of capital flight that

1:22:43

has allowed the tyranny, that allows the

1:22:45

control, that allows that centralization

1:22:47

to get to a point where it's

1:22:49

just horrifically abused. It

1:22:52

is the mobility of capital now in

1:22:54

a Bitcoin world that will

1:22:56

push back against it. The

1:23:00

other thing is- When the US bond market

1:23:02

finally breaks, the US government might lose

1:23:04

some of its ability to reach outside of its own

1:23:06

borders. That was the other thing, and I meant to

1:23:08

bring it up while we were on

1:23:10

that, like Jesus Christ, an hour ago

1:23:13

in this conversation, is

1:23:16

that we're still in a place

1:23:18

where, as you said, going

1:23:21

somewhere else doesn't really help because the US can

1:23:23

just reach out. Roger was

1:23:25

arrested in Australia or something like that.

1:23:28

I don't even know, but is that

1:23:30

Japan? I don't know. He

1:23:32

was just arrested somewhere randomly and then sent

1:23:35

back to the US. He's like, what? Why

1:23:39

are you getting arrested for US

1:23:41

tax evasion in another country? The

1:23:44

thing is that this is because

1:23:46

America is still the big dog,

1:23:48

and as they are trying to

1:23:50

squeeze the throats of everybody, they're

1:23:52

getting more and more totalitarian. They're

1:23:54

getting more and more abusive, and

1:23:56

more and more they are using

1:23:59

things. that were once a service

1:24:01

that the US provided other people as

1:24:04

a way to control

1:24:07

those other countries. And

1:24:10

one by one people are gonna

1:24:12

start walking away from that. My

1:24:14

countries are gonna say, screw

1:24:17

this I am done. And

1:24:19

as the fiat apparatus,

1:24:23

the global fiat apparatus starts to

1:24:25

splinter, which it is, it is

1:24:27

in so many different ways it

1:24:29

is. But it's clearly just in

1:24:32

progress. Why they're lagging the Congress.

1:24:34

Yeah. As that happens,

1:24:40

Spain doing, I don't remember where it was,

1:24:42

by the way, so don't quote

1:24:45

me on that. But Spain doing the US,

1:24:47

doing arrests for the US, unless

1:24:50

it's literally like a serial killer, like

1:24:53

they just don't want in their country. I

1:24:56

highly suspect my hand is in less of

1:24:58

a, oh yeah we'll get to it. Don't

1:25:01

worry buddy. And nothing

1:25:03

happens. And

1:25:05

again, in the context of

1:25:07

like, they will go where they are best

1:25:09

treated, countries will start worrying

1:25:12

about whether or not they have capital.

1:25:14

Because all of the free

1:25:16

capital that has come with the mountains

1:25:18

of debt, when we realize that those promises aren't

1:25:21

being paid back, that

1:25:23

means that the capital vanishes. Because

1:25:25

we're operating on capital that doesn't exist,

1:25:29

that we believe will be paid back. When

1:25:32

that promise is no

1:25:34

longer being fulfilled or

1:25:37

being honored, all

1:25:39

of that will go away. And every

1:25:41

government, as evil and as shitty and

1:25:43

as like taxing unrealized gains as it's

1:25:46

all going to be, they will be

1:25:48

desperate for capital because they're gonna lose

1:25:50

it. And that is when

1:25:53

the sovereign individual thesis

1:25:55

really gets a sprinkle

1:25:57

some cocaine on it, light it on fire,

1:25:59

and then and poor gasoline

1:26:01

stops. When

1:26:05

that happens, it will both get incredibly

1:26:07

violent and dangerous, but

1:26:10

then also power dynamics

1:26:12

will shift very, very quickly.

1:26:16

The other thing that I think- We already

1:26:18

have states thumbing their nose at the federal

1:26:21

government. Hopefully

1:26:23

more boldly as time goes on.

1:26:26

And the other perspective I think to take away is to remember

1:26:28

this is a long term. This

1:26:32

is a long game. Don't

1:26:34

expect a solution tomorrow. Just

1:26:39

because there's a bunch happening today or this

1:26:42

week or next week and markets are shifting

1:26:44

and companies are leaving and we're having to

1:26:46

use a different app or having to use

1:26:48

our node when we didn't want to do

1:26:51

whatever tour, whatever. And

1:26:53

now we have to find a different way to provide this.

1:26:57

If you fail to-

1:26:59

I'll say this because this is something

1:27:01

I'm talking to myself right now because

1:27:04

I wanted a project that I'm working on

1:27:06

to already be done and it's not done. When

1:27:11

you thought this was going to be two months or you

1:27:13

thought this was going to be three months and then you

1:27:15

don't have it and then

1:27:17

you thought it was going to be five months and you still don't have

1:27:19

it. Don't

1:27:21

think that that's the end of it. Remember that

1:27:23

everything is going to take longer than you think.

1:27:28

You were already- you're

1:27:31

biting off ten times as much as you can

1:27:33

chew at the beginning and

1:27:36

you put yourself on a timeline that

1:27:38

never was feasible. But

1:27:40

stick with it because it matters. Because

1:27:43

this is the stuff that we need to build. These are

1:27:45

the things that we need to focus on. And

1:27:47

even if you have to come back to

1:27:49

it ten different times, twenty different times to

1:27:51

get that set up to work, to get

1:27:54

your node connecting properly and you have to

1:27:56

try ten different tools, when you get it,

1:27:58

you will have it. When you

1:28:00

do it sovereignly and you do

1:28:02

it in a reliable and fast way, that

1:28:04

will stay. When you're dependent on

1:28:07

somebody else, that's when you know it

1:28:09

might be gone one day. And

1:28:11

so... I

1:28:14

look at privacy and sovereignty

1:28:17

as a process because my

1:28:20

goal is just never move backwards. Yeah,

1:28:24

you're never going to have anything that's perfect, but

1:28:27

just never move backwards. So like

1:28:29

the last time I upgraded a phone, I was

1:28:31

not going to buy a new Apple device.

1:28:34

I bought a Pixel and

1:28:36

I put graphene on it, right? Like I'm

1:28:39

always going to... The next

1:28:41

step is always going to be a little bit better. Is

1:28:43

that a low-key jab at my iPhone? Yes,

1:28:46

all your stupid Apple products and all

1:28:49

your spyware. You're not better

1:28:51

than me. I

1:28:53

am though. The

1:28:56

thing is, it's

1:28:58

crazy how those

1:29:01

devices behave when

1:29:03

you get rid of their SIM

1:29:06

card and you get rid of their connection. It

1:29:09

will drain itself trying to track

1:29:11

everything around it with Bluetooth and Wi-Fi.

1:29:14

And it's truly

1:29:16

a piece of spyware. Yeah,

1:29:19

that's just me. Even

1:29:22

having... This is why I don't...

1:29:25

People... I

1:29:27

don't think it makes... I

1:29:29

know that in my personal

1:29:31

situation, my day-to-day practices are

1:29:33

not such that I can

1:29:36

maintain any sort of real

1:29:38

privacy from the people that I would want to

1:29:40

be private from. And so

1:29:43

I just... I am me

1:29:45

online and whatever. Maybe that's stupid. I

1:29:47

mean, given some of the stuff that's

1:29:50

happening now, it definitely makes me think,

1:29:52

maybe it is. But

1:29:55

I don't know how to hide from

1:29:57

the real... people

1:30:00

that are really the problem because

1:30:02

I know that they know that I'm tied

1:30:05

that my name,

1:30:10

my identity is tied to that old Apple

1:30:12

device. And that old Apple device has been

1:30:14

next to my new more

1:30:16

secure phone, I mean,

1:30:18

regardless of the fact that I still have a

1:30:21

plan under my name. But even if I was

1:30:23

using a prepaid thing or whatever, if

1:30:25

that device is

1:30:28

near, that old device is

1:30:30

on my Wi-Fi network or near my stuff,

1:30:32

my new phone for, you

1:30:35

know, 90% of the time,

1:30:37

then they know it's me. Like, there's, I

1:30:40

don't think, like, I don't think, like,

1:30:42

I think people are, they

1:30:45

think they have the security, like,

1:30:47

they're doing some something and honestly

1:30:49

are kind of kidding themselves in some ways. And

1:30:52

that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do, you shouldn't

1:30:54

try to improve your privacy

1:30:56

and, I mean, you should absolutely use, you

1:30:59

know, Keat and Noster and

1:31:01

Photon Mail and whatever you

1:31:03

can that's, like, encrypted by

1:31:05

default and, you know, use a VPN, use

1:31:07

everything you can, you know, secure your Wi-Fi

1:31:09

network the best you can. Get all of

1:31:12

your, don't buy a smart TV

1:31:14

or like, neuter your smart TV and

1:31:16

plug in, you know, some sort of,

1:31:19

well, I don't know, a Raspberry Pi

1:31:21

media server or something like, figure out, you know,

1:31:23

and that's, that's a whole project in and of

1:31:25

itself, right? To find a media

1:31:28

device that's not poisoned. But,

1:31:32

you know, all of

1:31:34

these things, like, looking toward a

1:31:36

more secure network, absolutely do not

1:31:38

buy an Alexa or whatever the

1:31:40

stupid, the Echo or whatever it's

1:31:42

called, like, don't buy the

1:31:45

smart home devices, you

1:31:47

know, build a network that is,

1:31:49

toward a network that is more

1:31:51

secure. But, you know,

1:31:53

I don't think it, I

1:31:55

don't think it matters as much how, like,

1:31:57

I know that if I was a just

1:32:00

a NIM on online, it would

1:32:03

be separating me from the people that might be

1:32:05

my allies if anything happened to me more

1:32:08

than it would be protecting me from

1:32:10

some alphabet agency. And

1:32:15

so, I'm

1:32:17

not saying that you shouldn't be a

1:32:19

NIM, that's fine too, especially if you

1:32:21

work for some major corporation

1:32:23

or something and your job might

1:32:26

pressure you not to say things.

1:32:28

Whatever. Privacy tools, you're probably using

1:32:30

NIM. Yeah,

1:32:32

if you are developing privacy tools, you should

1:32:34

absolutely do everything you can to hide. I'm

1:32:37

not saying you shouldn't. And there

1:32:39

is a degree to which the more people are trying

1:32:42

to hide who they are, the more security it provides

1:32:44

for the people they are. So

1:32:48

none of it is bad, really. I

1:32:53

just don't underestimate

1:32:57

your enemy and don't let perfect

1:32:59

be the enemy of the good. It's

1:33:06

kind of like the atomic habits thing, just

1:33:08

make it 1%. Like baby steps. Yeah,

1:33:11

baby steps. Just make it 1% better. And

1:33:14

don't even target 10 times better,

1:33:16

just make it 1% better. And

1:33:20

never stop doing that. Because

1:33:23

if we can do that, if

1:33:25

we can collectively target that and keep pushing

1:33:27

for that. If we can do that with

1:33:30

our Uncle Jim models, with our Bitcoin setups,

1:33:32

our local chat setups, we

1:33:37

can drag all of our friends into cheat

1:33:39

channels so we don't have to use

1:33:42

an Apple chat room

1:33:44

or whatever instead of like a non-message

1:33:46

room or whatever. That's

1:33:50

a huge win. Even if you're just dragging

1:33:52

them to telegram. Getting

1:33:54

them off of iMessage

1:33:57

and into telegram, getting family off

1:33:59

of that. It

1:34:01

makes it that much easier. It's

1:34:03

1% better. It's 1% better. Then

1:34:07

it makes it

1:34:09

that much easier to move to the next, the really

1:34:11

decentralized thing when it's ready. I

1:34:13

mean because Keed is not ready

1:34:15

for your mom

1:34:18

and dad or whatever. It's not ready for

1:34:20

grandma yet. My sister and

1:34:22

my sister use it. It's

1:34:25

getting, I don't know, it's damn near close.

1:34:27

Like it's close. When you're in all

1:34:29

the features, when you're in all the features. All

1:34:31

the widgets and wing dings. So they're

1:34:34

not all there. It's not a fully featured

1:34:36

chat. We got good emojis. We got cool

1:34:38

ass emojis. That

1:34:40

shit's animated. But

1:34:43

in the sense of like does it work?

1:34:45

Like I don't have any problem receiving

1:34:48

not- like when I message,

1:34:50

I will text April

1:34:52

from time to time and then

1:34:54

she will message me back on Keed and

1:34:56

like we use them interchangeably. Literally

1:34:59

the only time that I feel like I need

1:35:01

to use text messages is when I think the

1:35:03

notification for Keed isn't getting through because she hasn't

1:35:05

opened it or it's silent or something and I

1:35:08

know the text message is definitely going to ding

1:35:10

her and then we go back over to Keed

1:35:12

and we have the same conversation. But

1:35:14

it's not like hard for her to use it. You

1:35:20

have a text box and you type in text and

1:35:22

you hit enter and the text goes. That's

1:35:24

how it works. So that is

1:35:26

not a complicated setup. And

1:35:30

again, just 1% better. Just

1:35:33

1% better and keep doing it. I

1:35:36

made my shit 1% better today

1:35:38

and I hope

1:35:41

I am going to be able to provide something

1:35:43

that actually can make it a lot better and

1:35:46

I'm just working on making that better 1% every

1:35:49

single day. We're bringing some up to

1:35:51

help that. These

1:35:54

crackdowns are the motivation that we need.

1:36:00

to start adjusting our lives. For

1:36:02

worse. It's like

1:36:04

common sense, right?

1:36:06

And the

1:36:09

country is like a man who's procrastinating

1:36:12

and knows I should do

1:36:14

something, we should do this, but

1:36:16

I'll just put it off until tomorrow. Just

1:36:18

put it off until tomorrow. And

1:36:22

then finally the pressure gets to a point. And

1:36:24

then hopefully this is a wake up call. You

1:36:27

guys see, as Francis said in the article, this

1:36:30

take is sort of about, Americans

1:36:36

have become complacent. We

1:36:39

had it easy for a long time and I

1:36:41

think we're moving into a, it's not

1:36:44

gonna be so easy anymore. But

1:36:49

I still think we have the

1:36:51

culture and the

1:36:53

capacity to fight back in a way

1:36:55

that not many other places

1:36:57

in the world can boast.

1:37:01

Like despite the fact that we have a grossly

1:37:06

corrupt and intrusive

1:37:09

government, I

1:37:12

still think we also have

1:37:14

an incredibly hopeful means

1:37:19

and culture of fighting back

1:37:21

and there is an enormous amount of

1:37:24

momentum running against them and I

1:37:26

think they know it. We

1:37:29

got lots of rednecks. We got

1:37:31

lots of rednecks. And I can't help

1:37:33

but think. We're good to go. As messy and

1:37:36

as shitty as a lot of things are that it still might

1:37:38

be a good sign. Like

1:37:42

I still think this might be

1:37:45

an indication of the viciousness

1:37:47

that comes when things are moving in

1:37:50

the right direction and you know, like

1:37:52

I've used this analogy in the past, an

1:37:56

abusive relationship is most abusive

1:37:58

when it's recognized. that the relationship

1:38:00

is over. About in the end,

1:38:02

yeah. The user

1:38:04

is death really trying to hang on

1:38:06

to the vision

1:38:09

of what it was, the idea of what

1:38:12

it was. And they have

1:38:14

to be that much more abusive to prevent it

1:38:17

from ending as it should. Well,

1:38:21

it's like I just saw Peter Schiff's post about

1:38:23

like, they're going to have a debate about Bitcoin

1:38:25

with a bunch of people that don't like Bitcoin.

1:38:29

Yeah, it's all that good. Like Nereal

1:38:31

Rabin. Oh my

1:38:33

God. Sarah Moochie. You

1:38:38

were just on the crypto, the

1:38:40

anarchist show or whatever, talking about

1:38:43

Roger's book or

1:38:47

whatever. And Roger's book is

1:38:49

centered around Bitcoin. It's

1:38:51

not centered around his alternative

1:38:54

that's better. It's

1:38:57

centered on Bitcoin and he's calling

1:38:59

it corrupt or whatever else. But

1:39:01

Bitcoin is still the center of

1:39:03

gravity. Like

1:39:05

these things, this is just

1:39:07

the natural way things

1:39:09

move. Like people are angry and mad

1:39:12

about it and attacking stuff, but Bitcoin's

1:39:14

winning. Like we're winning.

1:39:17

They're using our words. Fiat is what

1:39:19

everybody uses now. I

1:39:25

still can't believe it. That wasn't a thing. Like

1:39:27

people don't realize that that wasn't a thing. I

1:39:30

don't remember. That was like a few years ago we talked

1:39:32

about this and I think that's like one of the biggest

1:39:34

wins. Like that is one of

1:39:36

the biggest cultural and like Overton

1:39:39

window wins that we have ever had

1:39:42

is they call it. They're all operating within

1:39:44

a Bitcoin frame. They call it all fiat

1:39:46

money. They call it fiat

1:39:48

money and they have to defend it as

1:39:50

fiat money somehow. I don't know

1:39:53

what we did and why it works so damn well,

1:39:55

but we made Fiat a proper lexicon. Please just tell

1:39:57

the way you describe it. I mean it is. They

1:40:00

didn't have the language. That was the language.

1:40:02

It was just we didn't talk about it.

1:40:05

Well, we should close this one

1:40:07

out here. Yeah. Thank

1:40:11

you. Thank you for joining me. I did not have

1:40:13

the motive. The reason my brother is

1:40:15

here is because we were talking on the phone. It

1:40:17

has been an insanely long day. And

1:40:20

I have been in and out of meetings

1:40:22

and talking with people and spending money, which

1:40:24

drains me. I don't like to spend money.

1:40:26

I don't like to see my Bitcoin leave. And

1:40:30

good God, I was like nine

1:40:33

thirty in the morning. And there was a crazy

1:40:35

morning up to that point. And it was like

1:40:37

I got in meeting with people and then

1:40:39

it was every minute. I didn't even eat until

1:40:41

six and went upstairs

1:40:43

for like seven minutes and I had to come back

1:40:46

down. And so I was talking to you and I

1:40:49

didn't think I was like, remember, I'm not going

1:40:51

to have an episode today. You're fucked. Fuck this.

1:40:53

And you're like, let's just do it. Let's

1:40:55

fucking do it. So we did. We

1:40:58

were already talking about this exact thing. What

1:41:01

was the article? And I was like, well, let me tell

1:41:03

you about the article. This

1:41:05

is literally the conversation we were already

1:41:07

having. So thank

1:41:09

you, Jeff, for being

1:41:12

my late

1:41:15

night motivation to get this shit

1:41:17

done. The audio not.

1:41:19

I assume the audio not. Thank you. Even

1:41:22

though you did terribly and nobody did like

1:41:24

it. It was

1:41:26

totally shit. But I appreciate

1:41:28

the effort. You get a

1:41:30

participation. The people on the board. Any

1:41:34

time you want Bitcoin

1:41:36

Audible participation award. I'm

1:41:40

happy to come. Come mess it up

1:41:42

any time you want. Excellent. Excellent. Good.

1:41:45

All right, man. Thank you guys so

1:41:47

much. This is Bitcoin Audible. Don't forget to check

1:41:49

out Swan Bitcoin and coin kite link in the

1:41:51

show notes. Don't be a bitch. Buy some Bitcoin

1:41:53

and put it on your cold card and

1:41:56

I will catch you on the next episode. Tilled

1:41:58

in everybody. Change

1:42:19

happens when the pain of

1:42:21

staying the same is

1:42:23

greater than the pain of change.

1:42:27

Tony Robbins.