0:00

Check me out at the annual Black Effect Podcast

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Festival, happening Saturday, April twenty seventh

0:04

in Atlanta. Live podcasts are on deck

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from some of your favorite shows, including this

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one, Black Tech, Green Money, and also some

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of the best podcasts in the game like Deeply

0:13

Well with Debbie Brown and Carefully Reckless.

0:15

Atlanta is one of my favorite cities in the world.

0:18

I've lived there for two years. Actually, in my worldview,

0:20

seeing us successful in every industry

0:22

and not having any limits on our potential largely

0:25

was shaped by Atlanta. So to be there with you

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doing this podcast talking about how we build

0:30

or leverage technology to bill wealth. Come

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on, man, doesn't get better. I want to see

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you there. Get your tickets today at Black Effect

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dot comback Slash Podcast Festival.

0:40

I'm Will Lucas and this is Black Tech, Green

0:42

Money.

0:44

I'll find so.

0:45

David has committed his life to actualizing

0:47

a more just and equitable world.

0:50

His resume is page is long, but

0:52

for the sake of this podcast, he's President

0:55

and CEO of the Global Black Economic

0:57

Forum, focused on reimagining

0:59

what diverse, the equity, inclusion

1:01

and opportunity looks like in global workspaces

1:04

and marketplaces. As well as achieving

1:06

the notion of economic justice.

1:08

For black people all over the world.

1:11

As someone who's worked across various sectors

1:13

like he.

1:13

Has, including public service, business,

1:16

nonprofit, and more, how does Alfonzo

1:18

believe technology.

1:20

Can be levised to address systemic inequalities.

1:22

I think that leveraging technology

1:25

driven solutions to

1:27

address systemic inequalities

1:30

really require collaboration. It

1:32

requires us to reach across sectors

1:36

that considered challenges against

1:38

marginalized communities or what marginalized

1:40

communities are facing. What I mean

1:42

by that is we have to look in education, we

1:45

have to look at wealth management, we

1:47

have to look at policy advocacy, we

1:50

have to look at health equity, we have

1:52

to look at entrepreneurship, and in all

1:54

of those different sectors we can

1:57

leverage technology driven solutions

1:59

to a systemic inequality.

2:01

So, as an example, if

2:03

you look at education, technology

2:06

can provide access to quality education

2:08

and training, which is really essential

2:11

to economic empowerment and

2:13

other things that we think of when we generally

2:16

think of education, and the

2:19

educational platforms can really break

2:21

down barriers to education with

2:23

marginalized communities to support

2:25

resource challenge public schools and

2:28

maybe provide students with skills and knowledge

2:31

that can help close the wage gap. So

2:34

you take another example wealth management. Fintech

2:37

innovations such as mobile banking and

2:40

digital wallets and peer to peer lending

2:43

can expand access to financial

2:45

services for underserved populations, including

2:48

those with traditional banking

2:50

accounts and credit intories. So

2:53

by providing alternative financial

2:55

solutions, technology can

2:57

help marginalize individuals build assets,

3:00

improve their economic resilience.

3:02

And then maybe we think of a healthcare as another

3:05

sector. Telemedicine

3:07

and mobile health applications can

3:10

improve access to healthcare services

3:12

for communities with limited physical

3:14

access to medical facilities,

3:17

and so if you're living in a remote

3:19

setting, for example, where

3:22

it's difficult to gain

3:24

access to other resources that people

3:26

have if they live in urban areas, telemedicine

3:29

can be incredibly helpful in addressing

3:31

the gaps in healthcare delivery

3:33

and in fact empowering people to take control

3:36

of their own health.

3:38

You said a couple things in there. I want to point

3:40

out one. You mentioned the phrase wealth

3:42

management. I believe you said wealth generation also,

3:44

but I'm not positive on that one. But I was

3:46

thinking about reading your background.

3:49

You know, you've been involved in some

3:51

really groundbreaking legislation. Helping push

3:53

those things, pushing things forward

3:55

in particularly around you know, social

3:58

and economic systems. Is

4:00

there an imperative for black people

4:03

to build wealth? Do we

4:05

have a responsibility to build wealth?

4:10

Yes? Yes and yes. Look,

4:13

as black people, we have centuries of

4:15

colonization, enslavement,

4:18

and systemic inequality that

4:20

have impeded our ability to

4:23

gain financial freedom and the dignity

4:25

that we actually deserve. And

4:28

when we talk about financial management,

4:30

when we talk about wealth generation, often

4:33

people want to divorce it from colonization,

4:36

they want to divorce it from slavery, they

4:38

want to divorce it from systemic inequality,

4:41

and we can't do that. We have to sort

4:43

of recognize the systems that we operate

4:46

within and how important it

4:48

is that we take

4:50

our personal liberties

4:53

and use those liberties that we

4:55

have gained from our ancestors

4:58

to achieve financial freedom. You

5:01

know, the most recent data from the Federal

5:03

Reserve Survey, I

5:05

think it indicated during

5:07

COVID that the wealth gap

5:10

widened. So between twenty

5:12

nineteen and twenty twenty two, you

5:14

know this, the medium wealth saw an increase.

5:16

However, the weave gap or the wealth

5:19

gap increase for people

5:21

who are racial minorities and if you put

5:23

an even finer point on that, when

5:25

Martin Luther King gave a speech on the March in

5:28

Washington in the nineteen sixties, the

5:30

wealth gap was eight to

5:32

one, and today that wealth

5:35

gap is twelve for me on

5:37

the other way, Yeah, it's going

5:40

the other way. And as much as people talk

5:42

about, you know, advancements

5:44

in technology and advancements in economic

5:46

empowerment and all of the other categories,

5:48

we're seeing this gap increase between

5:51

white and black people. We take another

5:54

category, housing equity. We're

5:57

seeing that black households chilled,

5:59

some improved, but we're

6:01

also seeing a gap with respect to

6:03

home equity,

6:06

whether black people actually have the ability

6:08

to purchase homes and hold onto those

6:11

homes. We're seeing existing and

6:13

exacerbating disparities. So

6:15

what I would say to your question is, we

6:18

have to think about the centuries of systemic

6:20

discrimination in public policy and

6:22

financial practices, in societal norms

6:25

that have hindered our ability to

6:27

acquire black wealth. And it's all

6:29

of our individual and collective responsibilities

6:32

to address that, not only through

6:35

structural reforms, but also our individual

6:37

actions.

6:38

So I'm going to ask this a different way. You're

6:40

saying it's not okay, then to be comfortable

6:43

with your little salary taking care

6:45

of you and your little house. Is

6:47

that safe to say?

6:49

That is safe to say? You

6:51

know that is safe to say because you

6:55

know, I have

6:57

to often think about the work that I do and

7:00

why I continue to do with what motivates

7:02

me to do this work, And I often think back to

7:05

our ancestors and the folks

7:07

that were killed, that

7:09

were murdered in order

7:11

for us to be in the position that we're in. So

7:15

just putting that lens on and

7:18

thinking about the responsibility that

7:20

we have to further advance

7:22

the interests of marginalized communities

7:24

and specifically black people.

7:28

Not only do we owe it to ourselves, but

7:30

the systems that we operate in were intentionally

7:33

created to oppress us. So

7:35

you're either going to be subjugating yourself

7:38

to a process and a system

7:40

that exists to oppress you, or you're

7:42

going to work to overcome

7:44

those systems collectively as

7:47

a community and also individually.

7:49

I like that. I like that.

7:51

So when you think about black entrepreneurship

7:54

in those even using technology

7:57

or building technology black entrepreneurship,

7:59

what, in your opinion are some of the most pressing

8:02

issues and concerns facing us.

8:06

Well, I think what you would hear most often from

8:08

folks that operate in these spaces is acsets

8:10

to capital, access to capital,

8:12

access to capital, access to capital. We

8:16

have black entrepreneurs all over the world,

8:18

all over this country, often

8:20

facing challenges in accessing access

8:22

to startup capital, including venture capital

8:25

funding. You may know this,

8:27

Black women, women of color

8:29

business founders received only

8:32

zero point zero three eight percent of

8:35

venture capital dollars. So to put that in context,

8:37

two hundred and eighty eight billion dollars

8:40

is allocated each year through the venture capital

8:43

infrastructure, and of

8:45

the two hundred and eighty eight billion dollars,

8:47

only zero point three eight percent those

8:50

are women of public. That

8:52

is something that should be alarming to all of us. So if

8:54

you want to start your own business and you're looking

8:56

for investors, you're looking for people

8:58

to actually support you and grow that business,

9:02

it's going to be difficult for you to find that in the

9:04

current infrastructure. So access to capital

9:06

is incredibly important and one

9:08

of the main obstacles that we face. The

9:11

second I would say is market access and contracts.

9:14

Black owned technology companies often

9:17

encounter challenges in securing contracts

9:21

and assessing markets dominated

9:23

by large or more established firms,

9:26

so they have to overcome those barriers

9:28

every single day. And we have to think about

9:30

how we foster supply diversity

9:33

initiatives. What I mean by that for those

9:35

who may not know, you know, if I run

9:37

a company, I usually I'm in the business

9:39

also of buying products and services. If

9:42

I'm buying products and services and I'm

9:44

only buying products and services from

9:46

non black people or non

9:48

people of color, that's going to

9:50

exacerbate the problem. So this idea

9:53

of market access and contracts is incredibly

9:56

important. And I would say another challenge

9:58

is global digital divide.

10:00

You know, digital inclusion

10:03

efforts like ensuring access

10:05

to soft and hard infrastructure can really

10:07

help bridge the digital divide

10:09

from marginalized communities, but that's often

10:12

quite difficult to do because

10:14

we don't have access to it. And

10:16

then I would say, finally, we're talking about building

10:19

collaborative infrastructures and systems,

10:21

and we don't have that ability

10:24

in many cases because we're excluded from the

10:26

process. So bringing together stakeholders

10:28

from government, from industry, from the non

10:30

for profit sector to help create a

10:33

supportive ecosystem for black entrepreneurs

10:35

in tech is also I think a significant

10:37

barrier.

10:39

I'm so glad you mentioned contracting because

10:41

I want to ask you about that and because you teed

10:43

that up. You know, outside of what I

10:45

do here, I have a small business also,

10:47

and we've been as several times. You know, we participate

10:50

in bidding processes and typically

10:54

I would avoid that because the

10:56

barrier to just complete the applications,

10:58

particularly when we talking about governments and whether

11:01

it's local, municipal government or federal.

11:03

Forget federal, that's a whole other beast. But

11:07

I'm just like, you know, it'll take me a

11:09

month just to respond and

11:12

then you got to try

11:14

to win it, you know, so you'll

11:16

spend forty eighty, you know, one hundred

11:18

and twenty hours just trying to respond

11:20

to an RFP and then

11:23

may not even get it. So how do small businesses,

11:25

particularly black owned small businesses, position

11:28

themselves? And I guess I'm phrasing that

11:30

in a way of is it designed

11:32

that way to keep us out because

11:34

they know we can't spend the time to

11:36

do this.

11:38

Yeah, you know, I had the privilege

11:40

of serving in government for twelve years,

11:44

and I had the privilege of serving as Council

11:46

to the governor of New York, the first black

11:49

man to have that rule. And you think of the State

11:51

of New York being a progressive place.

11:53

I happen to have the privilege

11:55

of serving as the first black person, black

11:58

man, I should say to service

12:00

counselors for the governor. There were black women that

12:03

served in that role, but unfortunately

12:05

I remain the only black man to serve in that role.

12:08

And when I served in that role, I had

12:10

again the privilege of drafting and

12:13

working on legislation that

12:15

included the Minority and Women Owned Business

12:18

Program. So this is a program that exists

12:20

in New York and other parts of the country. The

12:23

goal is to increase opportunities

12:25

for minority contractors

12:28

and women contractors to get business

12:30

with the State of New York, and that exists

12:32

in many other parts of the country. Now,

12:36

to your point, the systems, I

12:38

believe were created in such a burdensome

12:41

way that it makes it difficult for

12:43

people just to go through the application process.

12:45

And when I was there, one of the key goals

12:48

that I had was how do we demystify

12:51

this process and how do we make it simpler.

12:53

Now you were here on the other side, people

12:55

say, well, we need to keep this process

12:58

as is, because what can learned about fraud.

13:03

That's the argument why these programs

13:05

that the application process is so difficult,

13:08

is they argue that we need to make

13:10

sure that we eliminate or

13:12

reduce or address fraud. And

13:15

I would say that obviously is a legitimate

13:17

concern.

13:17

So what they say about yeah, exactly,

13:20

that.

13:21

May be a legitimate concern. But

13:23

what you can't answer for me is why

13:26

of the billions of dollars we have allocated

13:29

out in contracting, only point

13:31

x percent are going to black and brown

13:33

people? Why is that? And

13:36

no one was able to answer that question, which

13:38

is why I worked with a large

13:41

and very talented team

13:43

in advancing that legislation but

13:45

also breaking down the barriers to

13:48

entry for people right, making sure

13:50

that it was easier for people to get those contracts,

13:52

and also importantly holding

13:54

the agencies accountable right

13:57

because in many of these cases, the agencies

13:59

could grant what's called waivers if

14:02

they couldn't find a minority contractor or a

14:04

woman contractor, they would grant

14:06

a waiver to a white owned business to do

14:09

the work. And what we did

14:11

when I was in government

14:13

is eliminate that waiver process

14:15

so that it went through an additional review

14:18

process that agencies didn't have the

14:20

right just to grant those waivers. And I think

14:22

that's what we need in many parts of the country,

14:25

is additional accountability efforts to

14:28

make sure that market access and

14:30

contracts are actually available to

14:32

black entrepreneurs who are seeking to do business

14:34

with government agencies around the country.

14:37

Yeah, I love that.

14:38

One of the things that we don't talk about, I think enough,

14:41

you know, on this podcast, is addiction.

14:44

And we talk about mental health, we talk about things

14:46

like that, but we don't talk about addiction, particularly in technology

14:48

often and even

14:51

instrumental in creating treatment

14:53

centers for addiction and etc. And

14:55

even advancing economic empowerment

14:57

through policy. And I wonder, like, what

15:00

are the wrap arounds or

15:03

the rap rounds that should be there, or

15:05

the broken bridges between mental

15:08

health, addiction and financial stability.

15:10

So, like it was, we don't correlate

15:13

those two often enough in our community.

15:16

There is a direct relationship between

15:19

financial instability and mental health

15:21

and addiction. We have

15:23

a huge mental health crisis in

15:25

this country that often gets ignored,

15:28

and you see it exacerbated in large

15:31

cities. Right if you live in a large

15:33

city like New York City or Los Angeles.

15:36

You may see evidence of mental

15:38

health on the streets, and

15:40

in some cases not all, but in some cases

15:43

reflected to people who are homeless,

15:46

and we're not addressing that issue sufficiently.

15:49

In states and cities

15:51

around the country, Underserved communities,

15:54

including low income neighborhoods and

15:56

communities of color, disproportionately

15:59

experience and what we call social determinants

16:02

of health, and that

16:04

really contributes to mental health challenges

16:07

and addiction and financial instability.

16:10

And if we're not really going to address

16:12

the social determinants of health, it

16:14

makes it a lot more difficult for people to

16:16

get to that place where they can be financially

16:19

stable. And our communities

16:21

face systemic barriers in addressing

16:24

health care or accessing as you say,

16:26

health care, accessing education,

16:29

accessing employment opportunities, supportable

16:31

housing. So, you know, folks

16:34

often like to talk about mental health

16:36

in a vacuum, but it has to

16:38

be directly tied to healthcare, education,

16:41

employment, and housing. If

16:43

I can't afford an apartment, I'm

16:47

more than likely won't be able to sustain a

16:49

job. And if I have

16:51

a mental health challenge and

16:53

it's not treated, that's going to

16:55

affect my ability to

16:57

get a job or to hold on to a home,

17:00

and that perpetuates into

17:02

a vicious cycle of poverty. So I

17:05

had the privilege of helping

17:07

to create an addiction treatment center in Los

17:09

Angeles that was and remains

17:11

quite successful. And

17:13

I think we need more of that work, and we need more

17:15

focus on those areas because we

17:17

tend to disaggregate them and

17:20

think of poverty and mental health in one

17:22

bucket and then financial stability in

17:24

another.

17:25

Yeah, you've had

17:27

an incredible story. I want to talk about a Flanso

17:29

for a second, just the man, you know, the human

17:33

Talk about mentorship that you've received, and

17:35

you know, what are some of the most important lessons

17:37

you've learned.

17:40

I've got the privilege of working with

17:43

and for some incredible people who

17:46

took the time to invest in me. And

17:50

before I even talk about my professional

17:53

life, I'll just talk about my family. Yeah,

17:56

you know, my parents, my uncles,

17:59

my aunts, my that

18:02

have taken the time and continue to take the time

18:04

to pour energy and love

18:07

and attention into

18:09

me and for me, and

18:13

that serves as a foundation in a building

18:15

block for creating

18:18

the person that I am today. You

18:22

know, when folks say how did you get to

18:24

this place, I often say,

18:26

not by myself. And

18:29

I didn't get here alone right If

18:32

my parents were not and

18:34

I used to call them dictators. If they were

18:36

not such dictators in

18:39

making sure that they pushed us to read

18:41

and to write and to engage

18:43

in different cultures and different languages,

18:46

I wouldn't have the scope and the perspective

18:48

that I have today. And it wouldn't

18:50

have led me to practice law.

18:53

It wouldn't have led me to do the work that

18:55

I've done. But when I got into

18:57

those professional spaces, I also found

18:59

people that invested

19:01

in me. From Joanne Epps, who

19:03

was the former dean

19:05

of the Temple Law School where I went to law school,

19:08

or to Clipper Scott Green, who

19:11

was the judge that I clerked for, one

19:13

of the first black judges

19:16

on the federal bench. And

19:19

I clerked for him, and one of the things that he said

19:21

to me that will always stick with me, he

19:23

says, people often arrived at conclusions

19:26

with too little evidence. And

19:29

he said that to me in the early two

19:31

thousands when I clerked for him. And I think about

19:33

that often, especially today in

19:36

an environment where people reach

19:38

conclusions based on a tweet without

19:41

actually understanding the facts and

19:44

drawing conclusions about marginalized

19:46

communities that are in many cases faults.

19:50

And that mentorship, in that sponsorship,

19:53

over the decades that I've been doing

19:55

this work, has really helped

19:58

not only refer mind my approach

20:01

and my thinking on a lot of the work

20:03

that I do, but also my humanity.

20:07

You know, as we become more successful, it's very

20:10

easy to forget where you come from.

20:12

It's very easy to forget about the person who

20:14

is less has less opportunities

20:17

than you, because you're constantly moving forward and

20:19

constantly reaching higher. And

20:21

another mentor told

20:23

me very early on, be

20:27

careful who you are kind

20:29

to on your way up. You

20:31

may meet them on your way down. Yeah. Yeah,

20:33

yeah, And I often think

20:36

about that ladder because we, yes,

20:38

we have highs and lows in our lives, and

20:41

we always have to think about the humanity

20:43

that we that we exhibit in

20:45

how we communicate with people, how we treat

20:47

people, and how we live our lives.

20:50

I love that.

20:51

And you know, one of the things that your

20:54

work makes me think about the

20:57

humanity and DEI work and

20:59

it's under attack today, and

21:02

specifically I want to talk about having

21:05

access to these opportunities like you know, I'm

21:07

on a college board, I'm chair of the board at

21:09

the at a university, and we're

21:11

faced with you know, we can't even ask questions

21:13

about you know, what's your background.

21:16

You know, when you talk about scholarshiping or donors

21:19

who specifically designated their dollars

21:22

for black students, we can't do that

21:24

today. And that's across the country and in so

21:26

many other places. Venture capital firms

21:28

who were set up for black people are having

21:31

challenges and doing this.

21:33

What do we do?

21:34

What do we do to ensure we still have

21:36

you know, distribution channels

21:39

for opportunity.

21:42

So I think there are a few things that we should do. First.

21:45

I think we need to understand

21:47

the landscape. That is

21:49

the enough. What I mean

21:52

by that is a

21:54

permanive option in d and I exists

21:58

for white people. It

22:01

is called nepotism

22:04

and it is called legacy.

22:06

Yeah. Yeah.

22:08

When I was in law school, Danny Reno, who

22:10

was the former Attorney General, came and spoke

22:14

about affirmative action, and she said, I am

22:16

a product of affirmative action. Why

22:18

because either her father or an

22:20

uncle or someone knew someone

22:23

at the university that she was ultimately

22:25

accepted into and we don't

22:27

call it affirmative action, but that's what it is. It

22:31

is sanctioned nepotism

22:33

and sanctioned promotional opportunities

22:36

for those who are white or

22:38

who are not black. So let's

22:40

understand the landscape. We need

22:42

to understand that is nepotism and legacy,

22:45

and that has existed for decades and continue

22:48

to perpetuate this system of inequality.

22:51

So that's first. Second, I

22:54

think ensuring access to opportunities

22:57

for historically underserved and

22:59

marginalized groups requires

23:02

advocacy. It requires

23:05

policy reform, it requires

23:07

community engagement, and

23:09

it requires an ongoing commitment

23:11

to the principles that we call DNI. Right,

23:15

so we have to make sure that we're willing to advocate

23:17

for the idea of diversity, equity

23:20

and inclusion, because what is the alternative.

23:23

The alternative is that we are accepting

23:26

institutions being non diverse

23:28

and non inclusive, we are

23:30

accepting workplaces being non diverse

23:32

and non inclusive. We are accepting

23:36

that we are less than Ultimately

23:40

by refusing to commit to DNI

23:42

and the principles undergirden DNI,

23:45

what we're saying is that we're less than and we know

23:47

we're not right. We know we're

23:49

not There is no reason why many

23:52

of these boardrooms are not diverse. You can't

23:55

tell me you cannot find a qualified

23:57

black or brown person to serve on a board.

24:00

You can't find a qualified black a brown person

24:02

to serve as a CEO. You can't

24:04

find a qualified black a brown person to work

24:06

in your law firm. So the

24:08

advocacy, the policy performed, the community

24:11

engagement, the ongoing commitment to D and

24:13

I principles are incredibly important

24:15

and understanding the landscape that

24:18

nepotism is really another

24:20

word for affirmative action. Legacy

24:24

is another word for affirmative action, and

24:26

we need to understand how all of those

24:28

principles coincide with the pushback

24:31

that we're getting. Now. We're seeing that there's

24:33

been a lot of progress or some progress

24:36

in education, in business, in finance, and

24:38

now it's being dismantled. And we have

24:41

to fight against that dismantling of

24:43

affirmative action, against D and I, against

24:45

inclusive policies because they will directly

24:48

affect all of us.

24:50

So it helped me make sense.

24:51

It is because if you look at qualified

24:54

studies, you know if you have diverse

24:56

people, you do better in business.

24:58

Those are facts you make more

25:01

money, which

25:03

is what we are in the belief

25:05

of like, that's what they want. They want to make more money,

25:07

they want more power, more influence. And

25:10

so if I show you, businessman,

25:12

business woman statistics that say you

25:15

make more money when you have diverse boardrooms,

25:18

you make more money when you have diverse rosters

25:20

of staff, and then you still I

25:23

don't want to I don't want to use the word hey, but do you really

25:26

not like us that much that you are

25:28

willing to make less to not put us

25:30

at the table?

25:32

Well, I mean you pose the elephant

25:36

in the room. That's the question. There's

25:39

data that has been issued for

25:41

decades. We have reports after

25:43

report after report showing the

25:45

business space for diversity, showing that

25:47

if you have a diverse team, you're more successful.

25:50

If you have a diverse team, you're more innovative,

25:52

If you have a diverse team, you will have

25:55

a more sustainable bottom line

25:57

over the long term. So, if I'm a business

25:59

leader, or I'm assigning

26:02

value, financial

26:04

value to diversity, and if

26:06

I'm not, then

26:09

I either believe that

26:12

black and brown people are lessening, or

26:15

I'm willing to Negate

26:21

or not, I'm

26:24

willing to ignore the financial

26:26

loss. I'm

26:29

willing to ignore the financial

26:31

loss that my company is going to experience

26:34

as a result of not embracing diversity.

26:37

Wow. I mean that's how we should think about it, because

26:41

no one is denying the studies. No one is

26:44

saying the studies are wrong. And

26:46

we're talking about Harvard Business School

26:49

to Mackenzie, They've all issued

26:51

studies showing the value of diversity

26:53

to companies across the globe. And this is not

26:56

just a US based issue. So if

26:58

I'm a CEO and

27:00

I ignore that, I either

27:03

believe that black and brown people are less than

27:05

or I'm willing to suffer financial lots.

27:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, And and so I've had this

27:13

conversation. This pot casts a lot, and I'm really

27:15

interested in your take on this. So I there's

27:18

there's two conversations

27:20

to be had. One there is you can go to the Apples,

27:23

the Googles, the Tesla's, the whatevers

27:25

of the world and say you should hire more black people,

27:27

et cetera, etcetera, etcetera.

27:28

Make that case.

27:29

I personally am not in.

27:32

I want to build my own table. I'm not asking

27:34

for a seat at nobody's table. I'm gonna go build

27:36

my own table. And I recognize

27:38

that there's value in both perspectives,

27:41

in both efforts, And I just wonder what your thoughts

27:43

are on those two things,

27:46

right.

27:47

I think we need both and I think you're exactly right.

27:49

Not every single person is an

27:52

entrepreneur. Not every single

27:54

person has what it takes to be an

27:56

entrepreneur, to be your own

27:58

boss, to worry about

28:00

making payments to you

28:03

know, pay corporate taxes four times a year.

28:07

Not everyone has that.

28:08

I know you know what I'm talking about, right,

28:12

But we.

28:13

Should all have the opportunity to explore

28:16

the our interest

28:19

in being an entrepreneur. So that's one.

28:22

The flip side is that if

28:25

we want to work for others, if

28:27

we want to work in an environment that

28:30

we don't own, we should

28:32

also have the ability to do that. I

28:35

mean, we arguably live in

28:39

an economy,

28:42

capitalist structure that's free enterprise,

28:46

which is really fascinating to me. Those

28:49

who are against diversity and

28:51

inclusion ostensibly support

28:53

free enterprise. So if

28:55

you support free enterprise in

28:57

a capitalist structure, why you against

29:00

d and I why are you pushing

29:03

CEOs to

29:06

move away from diversity? But at the same time

29:08

say that you embrace free enterprise. You

29:12

can't do both right.

29:15

You either embrace pre enterprise and allow companies

29:17

to create the structures that they deem most

29:20

appropriate to achieve to advance

29:23

economic opportunity and the bottom

29:25

line, or you don't. And so

29:27

that's why I find this entire movement

29:30

against D and I intellectually dishonored. It's

29:32

not really about D and I. You

29:35

know, this is about a fear of a minority

29:38

majority district in a few years. This

29:41

is about a fear of entrepreneurs

29:44

getting to the point where they have so

29:46

much in resources and access that

29:49

you can't control them. And

29:52

that's the larger narrative that we're fighting

29:54

against me.

29:56

In the three minutes I got left, I got two more for

29:58

you. So I one, I want to do this real. What

30:00

is the imperative We have to

30:03

find roads to success for the formerly incarcerated.

30:08

That is one of the most important things we need to

30:10

do. Look, we all

30:13

know the Rockefeller drug laws, the

30:16

criminal justice laws that have been passed not

30:18

only in the state of New York, but in other parts of the

30:20

country disproportionately impacted people

30:22

of color. We know and

30:25

many people know how the sentencing

30:27

structures were different if you had cocaine

30:30

versus crack cocaine, right, and

30:33

we know the impact that it had on communities

30:35

of color. With

30:38

respect to those who are

30:40

justice impacted, who are largely black

30:43

and brown, when they are released,

30:46

we have a responsibility to make sure

30:48

that we open up opportunities for them.

30:51

Otherwise we're simply perpetuating

30:54

a cycle of mass incarceration and disproportionately

30:57

impacting our communities. When

30:59

I was in the Governor's office,

31:01

I worked on critical pieces of criminal

31:03

justice reforms, from solitary confinement

31:06

reforms to legislation to

31:09

culturial courtail allowing

31:12

minors to be treated as adults in

31:16

prison. We called it raise the Age. And

31:20

I just feel very strongly that,

31:23

you know, the criminal justice system being what it is,

31:26

we either believe in rehabilitation

31:29

or we don't. We either believe

31:31

that people can go in, serve their time

31:33

and be released and then serve as contributing

31:35

members of society or and don't. And

31:37

if we do, then we have to make sure

31:40

we create an infrastructure to support them and

31:42

that them are largely black and brown.

31:46

And the last one is, you know, obviously

31:48

we having a humongous conversation about AI, and

31:51

I wonder what concerns Alfonso

31:54

about AI and what

31:57

roads we have to solve whatever concerns

31:59

is that you have, So a little bit of a two parter.

32:01

There for you.

32:03

I'm really concerned about AI because I

32:06

think we often think of

32:08

the challenges that AI presents,

32:11

but we fail to think about the opportunities.

32:14

And we need to think about the opportunities. Now.

32:17

Now, when you think about the challenges that AI

32:19

presents, we certainly know that in some industries,

32:22

AI will result in eliminating

32:25

those industries. So you think of language access

32:27

as an example, right, you had

32:30

companies that were providing language access services.

32:32

Well, pretty soon you will be able to

32:35

and you can in many instances communicate

32:37

on your phone in almost any language. So

32:39

you may not need the same types

32:42

of services that we currently provide

32:44

or have been providing. But at the

32:46

same time, there are opportunities

32:49

to expand access to financial services,

32:51

There are opportunities to expand community

32:54

development, There are opportunities to maximize

32:56

technology, and we as

32:59

black and brown people, should be looking for those

33:01

opportunities not only to invest,

33:03

but to create our businesses, right,

33:06

because that is the future. I.

33:09

You know, AI has been with us for a long

33:11

time, and many people say, what is this AI think?

33:14

And I said, look at your phone series

33:16

AI, and

33:18

it's been there for a while. So as

33:20

we think about technology for the future,

33:23

I think it's important and imparative that

33:25

we think of investments in this

33:28

arena and we think about how we can

33:30

take our resources and create businesses

33:33

that can better serve our communities.

33:50

Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity

33:52

Afro Tech from the Black Effect podcast

33:54

Network in Nightheart Media.

33:56

It's produced by Morgan Debond and me Well

33:58

Lucas, but the additional production support

34:00

by Sarah Ergan and Love Beach.

34:03

Special thank you to Michael Davis and Kate McDonald.

34:06

Learn more about my guests and other tech diswether. It's an

34:08

innovator's at afrotech dot com. Enjoy

34:11

your Black Tech Green Money, Share

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this with somebody. We'll

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get your money, peace and love.

34:21

Check me out at the annual Black Effect Podcast

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