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0:38

I'm Will Lucas and this is Black Tech, Green Money.

0:42

Jarvis SAMs, founder and CEO at The Rainbow

0:44

Disruption with the mission is to partner with organizations

0:47

to develop practical solutions that champion

0:49

DEI in the workplace and enables

0:51

systemic progress where authenticity, empathy,

0:54

growth, mindset and transparency are celebrated.

0:58

Previously, he was Chief Diversity, Equity

1:00

and Inclusion Officer at Nike. A

1:03

large effort in DEI is to create equitable

1:05

opportunities in spaces where people from

1:07

various backgrounds can have a voice.

1:10

These are achievable goals.

1:12

So if we're successful in do DEI,

1:14

executives ultimately work themselves out

1:16

of jobs.

1:17

I think that the work equity and inclusion

1:20

is actually never done, as we

1:22

see as time goes on in different

1:24

horizons change, different groups

1:26

ultimately end up being at the center of

1:28

experiences of marginalization.

1:30

Unfortunately, the raw reality of our

1:32

work.

1:33

Is that because so many different factors

1:35

social, political, environmental,

1:37

economic tie into the way that

1:39

we do our work, there's always going

1:42

to be a need for organizations to understand

1:45

how do we create equitable approaches

1:47

and equitable outcomes that serve people

1:49

and teams. I think the product inclusion

1:51

space is critical here will if you take

1:54

a look at what new product development looks

1:56

like within organizations. Every

1:58

time a company drives in to

2:00

stand up a new product, we have to consider

2:03

it through the lens of ensuring that it's accessible

2:05

to all people. I'llbe at disability

2:08

status, language barriers, or otherwise.

2:10

And so with some of those different constraints in

2:12

mind, the work of equity practitioners

2:15

to ensure great outcomes

2:17

for all will forever be something that we have to

2:19

continue doing.

2:20

And to that point, you know, I've heard you talk about

2:22

before, specifically the around the time of George

2:24

Floyd and coming out of the pandemic, there

2:27

was so much focus on making sure.

2:28

Black people got equity in the workplace.

2:31

And then there was this big uprising

2:33

in you know, Pacific Islander and Asians

2:35

talking about they needed, you.

2:37

Know, equity.

2:38

So how do corporations manage

2:41

effectively so many people

2:43

you know, chomping at their heels saying, hey, you got to

2:45

pay attention to us too when it when it changes

2:47

so frequently.

2:49

Yeah, you know, for starters, organizations

2:52

have got to not look at this as

2:54

a zero of some game. Unfortunately,

2:56

so many organizations have positioned

2:58

the nature of this work through in us versus

3:01

them mentality. The challenge is the

3:03

USh and them are often too marginalized

3:06

and minoritized communities ourselves.

3:08

I recall the exact experience you're describing

3:10

will when we saw the rise and

3:13

recognition through a period of racial and

3:15

social reckoning following the murder of George

3:17

Floyd May twenty twenty, and

3:19

then by March of twenty twenty one, we started

3:21

to see increasing narratives and stories

3:23

highlighting this notion of hashtag stop.

3:25

Asian hate in numerous organizations.

3:28

You saw this conflict begin to be developed

3:31

between how communities are interacting

3:33

with one another, where support systems

3:35

are built versus none, and you literally

3:38

saw organizations positioning

3:40

a perspective that what, we

3:42

gave this much money to black communities,

3:44

and so we need to think about how do we support

3:46

API communities. The harsh reality,

3:49

though, is that the experiences of

3:51

the communities are so different, and

3:53

when you position it as a zero sum game, it

3:56

assumes that there's only this amount of

3:58

pie that's available for us to fight

4:00

over. Meanwhile, those that exist

4:02

in the space of the dominant discourse are enjoying

4:05

all of their nourishment and fruits and delight

4:07

on this side. For organizations

4:10

to be successful here, the lens

4:12

of equity requires us to consider the specific

4:15

needs of key organizations and

4:17

recognizing where our companies may

4:20

have been complicit in the marginalization

4:22

of those communities. Take, for example,

4:25

the sports industry and certainly in the footwear

4:27

industry. Arguably every

4:29

streetwear, lifestylear performance space

4:31

footwear brand has benefited off

4:34

of the contributions of black bodies, whether

4:36

it's the athletes that represent these organizations

4:39

through a sports marketing lens or the

4:41

consumers that patronize their businesses

4:43

and organizations every single

4:45

day in physical platforms and

4:47

digital These organizations then

4:50

have an obligation to think about

4:52

how they support these communities that

4:54

are a part of the building and development

4:56

of their bottom line. To do this

4:58

effectively, though, we can cannot see

5:01

the work of support of marginalized communities

5:03

at awe to one another, but rather

5:05

recognize that to truly move towards

5:07

systemic solutions means gaining

5:09

a stronger understanding of where

5:11

we've been and how we got here, how

5:14

does this show up in the present and its impact

5:17

and implication on people, and then what

5:19

investments are we going to make as an organization,

5:22

since you're a betterment of future.

5:25

I want to go a level deeper there because I've heard

5:27

black women talk about this. You know, black women's

5:30

diversity and equity inside the workplace lags

5:32

behind Black people in the workplace.

5:35

And I've heard black women talk about when organizations

5:38

and companies talk about well you talk about

5:40

women's issues, is black women get

5:42

left out and white women ultimately benefit

5:44

from the efforts that black women

5:46

have raised their arms about.

5:48

What's your take on this?

5:50

You know, well, in addition to my work

5:53

as the founder and CEO of the Rainbow Disruption,

5:55

I also teach in academic spaces.

5:57

So I am a professor of practice at Brown University.

6:00

When that I work as part of the fully Employed MBA

6:02

program as well with the University

6:04

of California, Berkeley. And so a lot of my

6:06

academic research and pursuits center

6:09

around the topics of intersectionality

6:11

and identity covering, and so the experience

6:14

that you're describing is squarely in

6:16

that space of intersectionality. Originally

6:18

a theory coined in nineteen eighty nine by

6:20

Kimberly Crenshaw from UCLA. It

6:23

argues that these interconnected identities

6:26

that we have impact either

6:28

certain privileges that we have in some cases

6:31

or increasing marginalization in

6:33

others. This is the exact experience

6:35

that we see with black women in the workplace. When

6:38

organizations talk about women's issues,

6:40

when organizations talk about making investments

6:43

in supportive women, they're typically talking

6:45

about experiences for white women. Rarely

6:48

do they consider the intersectional identity

6:50

of the approach. You can see this

6:52

in the way affirmative action policies have been built

6:55

up. The biggest beneficiary of approaches

6:57

to affirmative action have indep been white

6:59

women. On the flip side, when

7:01

many of these organizations, especially

7:03

those in the technology industry, describe

7:06

experiences of people of color or

7:08

underrepresented communities, they're typically

7:10

talking about black men or Asian

7:13

men, and so black women end

7:15

up getting lost in where and how

7:17

does this work is positioned. And yet

7:19

that means that we're not able to effectively solve

7:22

for some of the challenges that become impediments

7:24

to her ability to be successful in the workplace.

7:27

Take pay equity will We often

7:29

talk about the gender dynamic and the gender pay

7:32

gap, and yet it was not until recently

7:34

that we actually started to dig into

7:36

conversations that found that globally

7:39

around the world, if we look at where white

7:41

women are positioned relative to non

7:43

Hispanic identified white men and

7:45

then applied another layer to look at black

7:47

women, black women sit at levels

7:50

even below her white female counterparts.

7:53

Furthermore, in terms of development,

7:55

namely mentorship and sponsorship, she's

7:58

often met with resistance in so

8:00

many ways around the ability to grow,

8:02

advance and develop her career. And what's

8:05

more, when you add on

8:07

macro political and macro social layers

8:10

like those surrounding the rhetoric and sentiment connected

8:12

to the Crown Act, that's where we

8:14

begin to see the biggest implication on

8:16

her experience, where she has to make

8:19

a concerted decision every

8:21

single day how to wear her hair to

8:24

avoid being the recipient of microaggressive

8:26

behavior at best, an

8:28

abject discontent and disrespect

8:31

on what the evolution of her career could

8:33

actually look like because

8:35

of how she wears her hair, which,

8:37

as we know in the context of hair of politics,

8:40

has so many deep connections

8:42

to our experiences and identity as black

8:44

culture.

8:45

When we think about the intersection of

8:47

what it means to be both black and a

8:49

woman, she finds herself at

8:51

this intersection of certain

8:53

aspects of marginalization where

8:56

she's fighting to keep up in so many ways

8:58

to not only the status of identity

9:00

and experience, but she finds herself

9:03

competing with her white female counterparts

9:05

because we have been so preconditioned to

9:07

believe that there is only one seat

9:09

for.

9:10

Us that are available. I'll

9:12

just add to this world. This is why even more

9:14

when I talk in my lectures and the work that

9:16

I do. I often say that to truly

9:19

democratize diversity, equity, and inclusion,

9:22

we have got to create equitable

9:24

solutions for the most marginalized

9:26

amongst us, and my work and studies

9:28

we've discovered that is black transgender

9:31

women. To find yourself at the intersection

9:34

of not only trans or queer identities,

9:36

but female identities as well

9:38

as being part of the black community

9:41

or black identities means access

9:43

to things like environmental protections

9:45

from an environmental justice standpoint, health

9:48

equity, and the ability to not only seek

9:50

care and treatment from folks that understand

9:52

your experiences, but also the ability

9:55

to find a job and not be subjected

9:57

to under or underemployment, because

10:00

what was the experiences of those The further

10:02

you get away from the center, as Bill Hooks

10:04

describes it, and the further you get closer

10:06

to the margin.

10:08

You've talked about growing up, you know, giving

10:11

speeches in debate as being critical

10:13

to your success. I want to hear more about it.

10:16

You know, well, my family has

10:18

a very long history of the speech debate

10:21

space.

10:21

My mom was a debater, my older

10:23

brother was a debater.

10:25

And so in high school I didn't really feel

10:27

like I had a choice. It was just kind of what we do

10:29

in this houshold, and it

10:32

had the biggest impact on my life and

10:34

career. So I went on to debate throughout

10:36

my years in high school and went on to be a

10:39

national champion debater for Rice

10:41

University, and then went on to coach a

10:43

number of schools at both the high school

10:45

and collegiate level, including coaching a number

10:47

of national changions. What speech and debate

10:50

provides for people is the ability

10:52

to understand the mode

10:54

and means of effective communication,

10:57

both verbal and written. It allows

10:59

you to under stand what self expression

11:01

of identity is, and it allows you to

11:04

not only find your voice, not only

11:06

use your voice, but leverage your voice

11:09

as a means of having power and impact.

11:11

The beauty of it is well in the DEI

11:13

space, we often talk about this concept of

11:15

giving us a seat at the table, and I've often

11:17

challenged that because this table

11:20

could be broken, this table could be

11:22

being held up under the bottom by communities

11:24

that we don't even see down there, which

11:26

is the case with many fortune one thousand organizations,

11:29

this table could be ratch. I

11:31

don't necessarily need the seat at

11:34

the table. I want the voice

11:36

in the conversation. I want you to understand

11:38

my sentiments, I want you to respect

11:40

it, and I want to have the ability for

11:43

my sentiments and perspective to

11:45

be built into the way that this organization

11:47

runs and thrives strategically

11:50

and operationally. Speech and debate

11:53

gave me those skills to understand

11:55

how to build an effective argument,

11:58

how to build sound logic and

12:00

rationale, and how to combine

12:02

those great theories that are so deeply

12:04

rooted in the idea of public speaking, to

12:07

eat those logos and paint those that make the

12:09

ethical, emotional, and logical appeals.

12:11

To be able to forge connections for

12:13

people, whether I'm informing you about a topic,

12:16

attempting to persuade you about something, or

12:19

just trying to make you laugh. This is why

12:21

I highly encourage especially

12:23

underrepresented communities. One of the

12:25

biggest issues that we face in both governmental

12:28

spaces and nonprofit spaces, academic

12:30

institutions, as well as in our companies

12:33

is feeling voiceless, feeling that we

12:35

don't have a way or means to be.

12:37

A part of this conversation.

12:39

It's why I encourage underrepresented high school,

12:41

middle school, and college students in role

12:44

in public speaking courses, join

12:46

speech and debate teams, because the confidence

12:48

that you build and the ability to find your voice

12:51

becomes something will that no one can take

12:53

away from you, and it becomes so

12:55

highly impactful in how we lead and

12:58

thrive over time.

13:00

I've had this conversation with several

13:02

people recently who built companies

13:05

or you know, whether they be small businesses or tech

13:07

companies, but in traditionally non

13:10

melanated spaces, right and so, and

13:12

I ask, I'm always interested in how

13:14

they manage themselves in environments

13:17

where they are not represented. Particularly,

13:19

I was talking to Derek from Cloudy

13:22

Donut about the Nonisota tooe y'all.

13:24

I was talking to him and all of his donut

13:26

shops are in white neighborhoods, and he

13:29

was talking about how he doesn't assimilate. He

13:31

is who he is and completely who he is. He

13:33

doesn't change his the vocal tone of his voice,

13:36

you know. And I'm so interested in your take on this because

13:38

I was reading something where you said where

13:40

I finally began to understand the culture to which

13:42

I wanted to be a part of. I no longer had to

13:44

think about this construct of assimilation.

13:47

I could be myself and I think

13:49

about this from a perspective of there's

13:52

got to be some wisdom behind that too, because

13:55

and I want you to correct me if I'm thinking

13:57

about this wrongly, because I think

13:59

about, yes, you

14:01

can be you, but you can't just give

14:04

sometimes you got to give doses until you've proven

14:06

yourself in the room.

14:08

And so can you talk about that?

14:11

You know, well, if the

14:14

question is that I always look like this, no,

14:16

I don't know.

14:18

Fortunate one dousand spaces.

14:20

With rainbow locks and living my

14:22

truth, you know, it was a journey

14:24

of authenticity, you know when I think about assimilation.

14:27

And I'm actually really thrilled to share with the viewers

14:29

of this podcast. It's actually the first time that

14:31

I talk about this publicly. I have just finished

14:34

the manuscript from my book Dei Credential,

14:36

which will be coming out this summer, and

14:38

in DEI Credential, one of the pieces

14:40

that I described is a definition

14:43

for me around assimilation, and I

14:45

posit that assimilation is a tool

14:47

of the oppressor, which is utilized as

14:49

a means to destroy culture and

14:51

character, to degradate

14:54

history and heritage, and to overcome

14:57

the personal to the personality.

15:00

With assimilation, it forces us to

15:02

think through gaslighting techniques

15:05

that who we are, that our experiences,

15:07

that the loves that we have in

15:09

life are bad, are

15:12

harmful or negative, and that

15:14

to truly be successful and thrive

15:16

in a deeply capitalistic environment, we

15:19

have to harness perspectives

15:21

that shies away from what our actual

15:24

cultural heritage is and moves

15:26

toward or in service of, everything

15:28

that the.

15:29

Dominant discourse tells us it should

15:31

be. Well.

15:32

I have rejected this almost every

15:34

single day in my professional career.

15:37

It's hard, the dissonance that

15:39

exists between trying to show up

15:41

as somebody else, to serve a group of folks,

15:44

just to get to that next promotion, just

15:46

to get that next raise. You end

15:48

up working yourself so much that

15:50

the burnout both physically,

15:53

mentally and emotionally becomes

15:55

so deeply pressured. In the book, I write about

15:57

this conversation of the emotional tax, also

16:00

known as the black tax. It's this construct

16:02

of working twice as hard to only get half

16:04

the progress, or have to work. Here's

16:08

the challenge with that. When I was

16:10

going into workplaces very early in my

16:12

career, I found myself giving

16:14

smaller doses than I should have, and

16:17

so I found myself in conversations that

16:19

felt microaggressive, that felt incredibly

16:21

disrespectful, that felt racists,

16:24

that felt homophobic in so many

16:26

ways. And I was working in big oil

16:28

and gas and telecommunications companies,

16:30

and so when you're doing professional services

16:32

or client services work, you don't always

16:34

feel comfortable speaking out about the behaviors

16:37

of those clients because those individuals

16:39

are ultimately helping the firm grow and

16:41

helping the firm drive. By the time

16:43

I jumped into the technology industry, though, will

16:46

I changed my whole perspective on

16:48

this. Now, let me be clear, a lot of

16:50

folks will will walk around and tell you to

16:53

be your authentic self and bring your full

16:55

self to work. My full

16:57

self did not belong in anybody's corporate

17:00

space or anybody's corpus. Seting me

17:02

after five PM is real fun and probably

17:04

does not belong in the four wall on the corporate

17:07

But what I did find is

17:09

that authenticity is defining

17:12

those values that are important to you

17:15

and being unwilling to sacrifice,

17:17

shift or move away from those values

17:19

at.

17:20

Eighty and all costs.

17:22

And so that is what was important to me.

17:24

And so throughout my time at Nike, for

17:26

example, you know, I came into Nike in April

17:28

twenty eighteen, Ball fade

17:31

part on the side, still trying to relive my early

17:34

nineties truth and by the time I

17:36

departed the company in November twenty twenty two

17:38

to launch my firm, The Rainbow Disruption, you

17:40

know, I was walking around navigating the world with rainbow

17:42

locks and dressing exactly how

17:44

I wanted to because those experiences

17:47

of growing up as a black man in Houston, those

17:49

experiences in surrounding myself in

17:51

queer spaces and LGBTQ plus serving

17:54

spaces, those are all a part of

17:56

who I am, and so they have to

17:58

be brought in spaces because they're a part

18:00

of that value set that I hold

18:02

and that I support. My message

18:05

to the listeners on this will and

18:07

I get that what I'm saying is not easy.

18:10

I'm not saying that you go to your job tomorrow

18:13

and you're like, I'm good here, Thomas show

18:15

up. That's not the

18:17

case. It is a journey. I

18:19

recognize and understand that. But what I

18:21

don't think enough of us do is

18:24

write down what those values are

18:27

and then be unwilling and

18:29

unwavering in the lack of sacrificing

18:32

those as you navigate workspaces,

18:35

even if it may come at the impact.

18:37

Of your career.

18:38

We are brilliant, we are great,

18:41

and so understand and leverage

18:43

that and recognize that even if

18:45

that's not a great fit here, there's

18:48

a lot of organizations that desire your talent.

18:51

There is

19:01

DEI, the role of death.

19:03

I mean, let's be honest, who people decide

19:05

to work with can be very personal. People

19:07

like to do business with people they like. But

19:09

part of the work of diversity is to show that people

19:12

outside their bubbles and norms add

19:14

value.

19:15

But there's still that human struggle.

19:17

Does the work of pushing require you

19:20

to put yourself on the line at every time?

19:23

Jarvis speaks on.

19:24

It, It is a really great question, Will and

19:26

I think it depends on one,

19:29

the maturation of the organization

19:31

in terms of their readiness for great DEI

19:33

programming and work. And then two, it

19:36

depends on both the resilience

19:38

and impact of the leader. I'll

19:41

say this hand or heart,

19:44

working for myself now owning my

19:46

own firm and in the work that my team does

19:48

with the Rainbow Disruption, I am

19:50

no longer bridled or stifled by

19:52

this duality of having to

19:55

force the uncomfortable conversation while

19:57

also having to worry about the political

19:59

nature of my own career management, having

20:02

to think about if I give this leader

20:04

this type of feedback which is necessary

20:06

for them to grow and develop and provide impact

20:09

in the organization, is that going

20:11

to impact my performance review or

20:13

my ability to take on my next role in the company.

20:16

It's just not something I have to worry about anymore.

20:18

And so I can show up and authentically engage

20:21

with the various different clients, partners, and organizations

20:24

that I work with, because that constraints

20:26

not fair, like I'm not on y'all's benefits play, and

20:29

so I can talk to you about

20:31

what is actually necessary in your organization.

20:34

You know, well, over the last three years,

20:36

the term diversity, equity and inclusion, and when

20:38

it's positioned to people, it's met

20:41

with resistance by a lot of communities.

20:43

And the reason that happens is diversity,

20:46

equity and inclusion, when done right, is

20:48

literally a challenge to the status quo.

20:51

It is a perspective that says, the way that we have

20:53

done things historically have not fostered

20:55

the outcomes to which we desire going forward,

20:58

and so how do we create points of intervention

21:01

to challenge that systemically. As

21:03

you can imagine, this causes a lot

21:05

of fear to a lot of people because if

21:07

you have built your career and your last three

21:10

promotions have come via some connection

21:13

to systems of nepotism that have

21:15

allowed you to grow and develop, and now I'm

21:17

saying we're actually going.

21:18

To change that.

21:19

We're going to focus on inclusive hiring

21:21

measures where we have a diverse slate of talent.

21:24

We're going to position diversity in our interview

21:26

panels, and by the way, we're going to think about

21:28

inclusive succession planning and how we

21:30

develop, advance and promote talent.

21:33

This causes fear with folks where

21:35

they end up resisting the

21:37

future state approach. It's not that they actually

21:40

have a problem with understanding the car

21:42

tours of diversity and what elements of identity

21:44

is. There is a fear that

21:47

if you change the system so much

21:49

that I have been a beneficiary of, I

21:52

now have no clue what

21:54

approaches to advancement and development

21:57

might actually look like. And so well,

21:59

I don't believe that it has to be

22:01

the role of death.

22:02

Do I think it's difficult?

22:04

Absolutely? Do I think DEI leaders

22:06

really have to focus on the protection of our

22:08

own mental health and well being, and

22:10

organizations need to prioritize resourcing

22:13

to support us absolutely, because

22:15

the reality is George Floyd's

22:18

murder was such a big moment that

22:21

organizations basically starting to position

22:23

the chief Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Officer and

22:26

essentially a public affairs type role. You

22:28

got cdios right now having

22:31

to be the voice of response when

22:33

there's an earthquake in Turkey, when

22:36

there's violence in the form of war between

22:38

Russia and the Ukraine, when there's continued

22:40

conflict between Israel and power sign with

22:42

literally every shooting

22:45

and experience of gun violence in

22:47

this country, the CDIO is now

22:49

looked at as the voice of reason

22:51

and rationality.

22:52

There. That is such a shift.

22:55

In dynamic to where now this leader

22:57

is playing a role of government and public

22:59

affairs without the accountability, responsibility,

23:02

or the authority to actually make.

23:04

GPA based decisions.

23:06

They are having to opine on global sustainability

23:08

based topics without being an expert

23:10

in spaces of climate change. They are having

23:13

to navigate conversations about

23:15

social and community impact without

23:17

overseeing the multi million dollar budgets

23:19

that are used to be spent in these spaces

23:23

for organizations to be successful,

23:25

you have to understand the significant

23:28

amount of work that's being put on. These leaders

23:31

exhibit the grace with understanding, No,

23:33

they will not create solutions in three

23:35

years that resolves something that you have built

23:38

over the last fifty seventy

23:40

five and one hundred years in many of these

23:42

companies. And so we have to understand

23:45

how do we give the same rigor and intentionality

23:48

to social innovation with diversity, equity

23:50

and inclusion that we do with product innovation

23:53

When we're developing that new app, piece

23:55

of footwear or a pail based

23:58

product.

24:00

You tie THEI efforts because

24:02

they can't just be tied to you know, this the right

24:04

thing to do? How do you tie it to actual value

24:07

and business goals?

24:09

Yeah, you know there's a few things I think on

24:11

the ethical argument for diversity, though, this right

24:14

thing to do, this so called moral imperative.

24:16

I don't think we can overlook that too much

24:18

because a lot of organizations try to

24:20

move so clearly to the business case, and

24:23

when you do that, you lose sight of the fact

24:25

that, like, there's a whole bunch of

24:27

sociological, anthropological and

24:29

psychological impact and implication

24:32

that got us to where we are today. I

24:34

need you to understand how periods

24:36

and and development enslavement impact

24:38

it. Jim Crow laws and policies which

24:41

now impact how black communities show

24:43

up each and every day, and particularly

24:46

in the workplace. I need you to understand

24:48

how the media is representation and raffine

24:51

of certain stereotypes that impact underrepresented

24:54

communities all come from the history

24:56

of our experience. So we can't overlook

24:58

that moral imperative because I

25:01

argue, will it is the right thing to

25:03

do, because we are better

25:06

not saying we are better as

25:08

people than another group. I'm

25:10

saying, as humanity, we

25:13

are better than the systems,

25:15

tools, resources, and processes

25:17

that we have chosen to accept that

25:20

continue to put some communities out

25:22

of the ability to equitably engage in

25:24

society. We as humanity are

25:26

better than the tactics and

25:28

strategies being deployed by the current state of

25:30

the criminal justice system. This

25:33

is a topic that we've known for years that

25:35

continues to have such far reaching impacts

25:37

and implications not just on black and

25:39

brown bodies, but black families,

25:42

black men, black women, so

25:44

on and so forth. We are better

25:46

than that, and so we have to resolve that and

25:48

so a lot of companies then turn to the business case

25:50

for diversity.

25:51

I will tell you well, I was very proud

25:54

women get see.

25:55

A company release the studies around this work

25:57

in twenty fifteen and corroborated

25:59

it into twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen, and

26:01

then Deloitte and BCG added some additional

26:04

imminence connected to it. However, the

26:06

one critique that I've always positioned around

26:08

the business case so called for diversity,

26:11

equity and inclusion is that it considers

26:13

this work in such a deeply aggregated

26:16

nature that it doesn't force organizations

26:18

to understand how their own history

26:21

continues to contribute to the negative impacts

26:24

and implications of the work. The

26:26

business case in many ways would lead

26:28

organizations to believe that if you certainly

26:31

hire or position black and brown

26:33

bodies in certain roles, you're immediately

26:35

going to see this thirty five percent greater likelihood

26:37

of financial outperformance.

26:39

And that's not the.

26:40

Reality of the case. If your organization

26:42

has not done the work to shift your culture

26:45

or the climate within your organization, this

26:48

talent that you've put in role will not be set

26:50

up for success. They will continue to

26:52

be pushing up against a cement ceiling

26:54

that has always been positioned against them.

26:57

And then when you don't achieve those great

26:59

business results that have been highlighted by the

27:01

study, you can now not

27:03

hold yourself accountable but rather blame

27:06

shift to put it on that individual.

27:09

And so will to answer your question directly, how

27:11

then do we tie this to business goals?

27:14

Goal setting is absolutely critical. Employees

27:17

care about four main things in the workplace transparency,

27:21

visibility, accountability,

27:24

and belonging. I am a huge

27:26

fan of the idea of consequential accountability.

27:29

This is the idea that we as an organization

27:31

have set a goal or a target that we want

27:33

to achieve and there are consequences

27:35

connected to it, not through

27:37

the lens of blame, but through the lens

27:39

of accountability. So, when we choose to tie

27:41

executive compensation, for example, to

27:44

growth and representation goals, or commitment

27:46

to DEE education or

27:49

advancement to community and social impact

27:51

policies. In addition to that,

27:54

when we set these goals, it needs

27:56

to be specific enough in such a

27:58

way that even if we put position and growth

28:00

opportunities for representation, in particular

28:03

for growth of women, in the growth of communities

28:05

of color, how are we digging into

28:07

that concept of intersectionality to make

28:10

sure that our women numbers are not just growing

28:12

because of elevation and promotion of white women,

28:15

and that our people of color are underrepresented

28:17

numbers aren't just growing because of the hiring

28:19

and development of new black or Asian engineers.

28:22

Rather, how do we understand both

28:24

through pay equity, through core experience,

28:27

through education, development and community

28:30

that we're solving for those intersections of

28:32

identity along the way that we're providing

28:34

experience and pull surveys to understand

28:37

that impact and that DEI

28:39

has a place not just on the team and talent

28:42

strategy for an HR or people in culture

28:44

organization, but that it is positioned

28:47

right on that corporate strategy for the organization.

28:50

That's how you drive results. Will if

28:52

every strategy coming out of DEI

28:55

can tie back in some way to

28:57

the core goals that the business is looking

28:59

to drive from a strategy and operations

29:01

perspective, That's where impact

29:03

is created. And that is why I often

29:06

highlight and lecture and serience that I

29:08

do. I'm a business leader. It

29:11

just happens to be that my field of practice is

29:13

helping organizations realize their fullest

29:16

social and economic potential through

29:18

the lens and advocacy of DEI.

29:22

You know one thing we haven't discussed here that I've

29:24

got you for a few more minutes, and I want to talk about

29:26

this concept of supplier diversity, right.

29:29

Yeah, So one thing many companies

29:31

lean on as an excuse is, you know,

29:33

black owned companies don't have the capacity, particularly

29:36

corporations. You know, larger

29:38

small businesses lean on that, yep. And

29:41

how can they instead help

29:43

smaller companies black owned companies

29:46

build capacity versus count them out?

29:49

It is so necessary, you know, the supplier

29:51

diversity space. It has been

29:53

around a really long time. In fact,

29:55

work around supplier diversity has

29:57

been around longer than a lot of the core team and talent

30:00

strategies that we know, like the Rooney Ruler, the diverse

30:02

later proch on the team and talent side. And so

30:04

there's a number of learnings, especially from folks

30:07

who I would consider absolute maven's in the space,

30:09

like McDonald's, like University

30:11

of Chicago, who continue to do such

30:14

amazing industry leading work in

30:16

this space. But you're right, will so

30:18

many companies argue, well, in a

30:20

competitive process of an R ANDP, we're

30:22

just not finding enough black owned businesses

30:24

that can support this work, and so you end

30:26

up giving us the small contracts for things

30:29

like minimal food service, occasionally

30:31

bringing us in to do some content creation and

30:33

marketing or videography work, where

30:36

the big contracts are going to

30:38

major technology suppliers, major

30:40

marketing suppliers. For organizations

30:43

to be successful, they have to

30:45

move beyond the programmatic and truly

30:47

go to the systemic. The programmatic

30:50

is to say we're going to go out and create

30:52

this list of underrepresented suppliers

30:54

and hopefully they lay in we're going to try

30:56

to position these black small businesses

30:58

into these smaller areas within our company or

31:00

organization. Rather, we

31:03

should be finding ways to help them grow

31:05

to scale and through the lens of sustainability,

31:08

help them understand what results

31:10

in a successful RP.

31:11

Within your organization.

31:13

Help them by positioning some of the smaller

31:15

entities within your company or organization

31:17

to be successful. For example, if we think about

31:20

the footwear industry, while a vendor may

31:22

not yet be perfect for Nike eight,

31:24

could they do work to support the converse brand

31:27

to understand the infrastructure around the organization

31:30

but build from there. While an organization

31:32

may not be fully equipped for example, to

31:35

support a large retailer,

31:38

could they work on one aspect

31:40

of the merchandising space. That way they're knee

31:43

deep in the ecosystem and growing and developing.

31:45

And then what's more, how are companies actually

31:48

investing money into ensuring

31:50

that these businesses can grow by providing

31:52

them core skills on how to effectively

31:54

run a business. When you think about some of the

31:57

major I'll even say Fortune one hundred

31:59

companies, will they have some of the

32:01

best communications teams, operations

32:04

teams, supply chain teams, merchandising

32:06

teams.

32:07

What would it look like to.

32:08

Have those leaders and their teams extend

32:11

pro bono support and engagement with

32:14

these organizations to ensure that their

32:16

business model is air tight so that

32:18

when they come to you a year from then with

32:20

an RFP, they're not only competitive

32:22

in the process, but we know how they grow at a

32:24

scale. If your organization is

32:26

focused on the impact that you're having

32:28

in terms of carbon reduction, for example,

32:30

to drive towards applimate change goals,

32:33

make sure that you're equipping these folks

32:35

with the knowledge upfront so that they're aligning

32:38

their own approach to global sustainability

32:40

with that that you have as an organization, and

32:43

finally, we'll align to the same previous question

32:45

that you asked around goal setting. We have

32:47

got to set targets around supplier

32:50

diversity, but I want to see disaggregated

32:52

targets because a lot of companies will

32:54

set one billion dollar targets five

32:57

billion dollar targets over the course of a couple of years.

33:00

If you dig into it, the majority of those

33:02

funds are going to term women owned businesses,

33:04

which is absolutely incredible. We

33:06

do need to be investing even more significantly

33:09

in women owned businesses, and in veteran owned

33:11

businesses, and in underrepresented owned

33:13

businesses. However, if we're

33:16

not considering if ninety

33:18

percent of those women owned businesses are

33:20

owned by white women, and that none of the

33:22

funding is being distributed or allocated to

33:24

support Black women, Latino women, Native

33:26

women, are First Nations women, or API

33:29

women, we have not done our job effectively.

33:31

We're giving ourselves a pattern the ba for

33:34

what is arguably a participation trophy to

33:36

make us feel good or better about

33:39

what we're doing. It's often argued

33:41

that disaggregation of data helps

33:43

us to make more intentional and deliberate

33:46

and accurate decision making, and

33:48

so I implore organizations disaggregate

33:51

it, hold yourselves accountable, and enable

33:53

your consumers, vendors, and stakeholders

33:56

to be a part of that journey.

33:57

With you in the matter

33:59

of respecting DEI

34:01

expertise. Right, So, if I'm a business

34:04

and I'm looking for a DEI person, how do

34:06

I know that this person can actually do the job effectively

34:09

one? And how can I be

34:11

a respected DEI leader?

34:15

I think on the first front, well, this is show

34:18

topic ho you know. Following

34:20

George Fwitz Murder, I saw a lot of organizations

34:22

either go out to the marketplace to find

34:25

DEI leaders, and I found others elevate

34:27

leaders within their organization. Some

34:30

elevated leaders that had a great experience

34:32

in the space or at least knew some

34:35

effort around how to drive great progress in the

34:37

war. Others elevated

34:39

leaders who simply had a passion for it. It

34:42

is unfair to those leaders, you

34:45

know, when I think about other functions

34:47

within an organization, As I said, to drive

34:49

DEI effectively, we must think about

34:51

it and connects to our business strategy

34:54

and business operations. In no other

34:57

function would we ever take a

34:59

leader and just position them in a role

35:02

based off an element of identity and

35:04

passion. Will I actually

35:07

really like product development? I

35:10

almost failed out of art class in

35:12

eighth grade. I can't draw, And

35:14

so my passion for design

35:17

and product development.

35:18

Does not mean that I could go and become a

35:20

chief.

35:20

Design officer at a Fortune five hundred

35:23

company. And so the fact that we have

35:25

taken in some cases it's very lackadaisical

35:27

approach around just placing a talent

35:30

in role. It's unfair to the organization.

35:33

It's unfair to all equity serving communities

35:35

that are part of that engagement.

35:37

With the organization.

35:38

And it's unfair to that person because

35:40

when they step into the role and they

35:42

are unable to be successful because

35:44

they've never driven approaches that actually

35:47

foster systemic change in this arena,

35:49

we still point the finger at them because

35:52

the accountability exists within them. All

35:54

the other leaders will have absolved themselves

35:56

of their own accountability and how they drive

35:59

progress in the space, and so.

36:00

That leader is ultimately unsuccessful.

36:03

And so for businesses, I highly encourage

36:05

them think about what engagement

36:07

and partnerships, for example, what firms like mine might

36:09

look like with the rainbow disruption, we can

36:11

help that great DEI leaders for

36:14

and with you, as well as help to establish

36:16

the infrastructure that's necessary as

36:18

you build your own strategy and operating

36:20

model around engagement in this

36:23

space.

36:23

The whole goal is we need to be doing.

36:25

This work to drive longer term

36:27

sustainability and to ensure that we're

36:30

creating measurable and monitorable

36:32

frameworks to do the work even

36:34

more effectively. And so organizations

36:37

have to make sure that they are prioritizing

36:39

both experience and knowledge

36:42

in the space even more than passion

36:45

and lived experience is critical though I

36:47

see a lot of organizations promoting and

36:49

elevating folks who do not speak

36:52

from the community or do not speak from the eye

36:54

of experience, and that's tough.

36:57

It does not mean that these folks cannot as

36:59

allies, advocate or access activists

37:02

for.

37:03

The communities that are there.

37:05

But unfortunately, the black experience

37:07

is one that is so unique in the

37:09

United States and in various spaces. There's various

37:12

parts of Western Europe, certainly South Africa,

37:14

and so we need folks in these roles

37:17

that can actually speak to those experiences,

37:19

that understand what it means to be at

37:21

the margin of experiences of racial

37:24

minoritized status, to be able

37:26

to actually impact change

37:29

on the flip side for DEI

37:31

leaders. Will I get the question a

37:33

lot in my LinkedIn inbox, And when I

37:35

do lectures at universities of

37:38

a number of college students who are like I want

37:40

to go into the DEI space. And I think part

37:42

of it is rooted in gen Z and jen ALPA's

37:44

strong knowledge connection and commitment

37:47

to overcoming systems of oppression

37:49

and resolving things like institutional

37:51

and structural racism. And yet

37:54

in most cases I tell them, don't

37:56

do it immediately out of college. I

37:58

think there is something so critical about

38:01

getting experiences outside of

38:03

this space, whether it's in HR

38:05

directly, in marketing and product

38:08

roles, in finance and sales.

38:10

There is something so critical about

38:12

learning foundations and fundamentals

38:14

of how businesses run and operate so

38:17

that when you do step into the DEI

38:19

role, you can be effective and

38:22

you can drive great work in progress.

38:23

Now I get it.

38:24

Well, that may sound a bit counter productive

38:26

or counterintuitive to exactly what I just

38:29

argue, this idea that you need to be hiring

38:31

experienced professionals. My recommendation

38:34

is entered organization and do a

38:37

role in a different function for two to three

38:39

years, and then step in

38:41

as a coordinator, as a specialist,

38:43

as a junior manager to learn the

38:46

framework and understanding of the space.

38:48

Read the text from.

38:49

Leaders that are driving thought leadership and engagement

38:52

here, follow the right folks on Instagram,

38:55

Twitter and LinkedIn that are positioning

38:57

thought leadership on this topic, and

38:59

then parlay that into a growth and development

39:02

opportunity in the space. Furthermore,

39:04

though, I highly encourage

39:06

my peers and colleagues in the space that are

39:08

chief diversity officers or DEI

39:10

leaders, continue to grow

39:13

in your own practice like keep yourself sharp.

39:15

I talk to a lot of DEI leaders that at

39:18

times I feel like they may rest

39:20

on their lawrels of their experience from doing

39:22

this work so well and for so many

39:24

years. The reality though will is

39:27

times were changing so significantly, and

39:29

as gen Z and Janalpa are very

39:32

actively and rapidly entering the workforce,

39:34

expectations are different. There

39:36

are many DEI practitions who have not had

39:39

to navigate this construct of identity,

39:41

for example around pronoun utilization and

39:44

understanding how to create inclusive spaces

39:46

for transgendering non binary communities.

39:49

They have not had to navigate conversations

39:51

around neurodiversity and neurodivergence.

39:53

They have not had to navigate effective accommodations

39:56

for individuals with disabilities.

39:58

We all have to continue to row in.

40:00

Our own countenances, to be sharp,

40:03

to be effective, and to grow

40:05

this work even more while also

40:07

ensuring to protect our own well being.

40:21

Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity,

40:23

afro Tech on the Black Effect Podcast

40:25

Network and I Hire Media, and it's produced

40:27

by Morgan Debond and me Well Lucas,

40:30

with additional production support by Sarah Ergin

40:32

and Rose McLucas. Special

40:35

thank you to Michael Davis sivin That's a Serrano. Learn

40:37

more about my guests and other tech this refors and innovators

40:40

at afrotech dot com joining

40:42

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