0:21

How can you walk away from something and then come towards

0:23

it? Walk around the podcast.

0:26

Small podcasts. See,

0:28

this is what I did. Is JD our

0:30

guest? Well, I haven't introduced yet.

0:33

No. False. Suggested

0:36

a cat quote for me to open with. Mhmm. Mhmm.

0:38

And I very quickly punted the responsibility

0:41

of in person to keep David to you.

0:44

I I can't do it. It's impossible. But

0:46

I I just tried to If anyone else could do it,

0:49

then he'd be out of a job or He'd be

0:51

down to homes. Right? Right. Yeah.

0:53

I don't know how many homes Keith David has.

0:56

Number of homes, some Googling Look

0:58

it up. Yep. Not seeing

1:00

an answer to that. Weird that I can't just

1:02

look that up. I'm sorry. He's been in more than three hundred

1:05

movies though. Is

1:05

there anyone who that works for who you can just Google

1:07

a number of them around me?

1:09

Okay. Remember when that was the thing with BitRomni? Or

1:11

was he just nine homes or whatever? He's

1:13

so rich. You know how there are all those websites

1:15

that have, like, completely false celebrity network

1:18

-- Yeah. -- listings. There should be a

1:20

similar sort of celebrity real

1:22

estate numbers. Yeah. How many

1:24

how many homes they got? Right. So it doesn't even have

1:26

any connection shouldn't take it out. I like celebrity

1:28

net worth because it's like if I was

1:31

asked how much a celebrity is That's what it

1:33

always feels like to me when you're like, I don't know, five

1:35

million dollars. Like, it's just like someone's just kinda like

1:37

thinking about it for five seconds. It's also funny. I feel

1:39

like the last time I checked me, it was like

1:41

hundred and fifty thousand dollars. And I'm like, how

1:43

come I'm the only one who doesn't have an inflated?

1:47

I think there should be a sibling

1:49

site to that.

1:50

Sure. It just guesstimates how happy they are.

1:53

Oh,

1:53

yeah. Yeah. I will say that when I googled

1:55

your net

1:57

worth. Uh-huh. It says

2:00

various things such as that you are a crises. True.

2:02

I'm cuspid, but you're crises --

2:04

Okay. -- that you're American, that you're

2:07

white, Correct. Religion believes

2:09

in god, nothing listed there.

2:11

Pretty much the opposite. I have a religion,

2:13

and I'm not sure I

2:14

believe. Residence,

2:16

and I just like this. This

2:17

is the only thing I want to read. He lives

2:20

in an unknown fashion in New York City,

2:22

New York. Yeah. I just like the weird

2:24

AI generated, like, Right. Like, descriptions.

2:26

He lives in an unknown fashion. So

2:29

I mean, like, he's in New York. That's all we do. As

2:31

a friends of Griffin. How are we we can all Oh,

2:33

yes. No. No. We can all sit on. It's

2:35

unknown. It's dead on. It's dead on. Zach

2:38

Cherry, friend friend of the podcast, a

2:40

future guest, I'll say that. We

2:42

looked up his celebrity network or his

2:45

AI generated biography on some

2:47

site like that. And there was the best line

2:49

I've ever seen on one of these, which is He

2:51

is very funny. He is always making

2:53

jokes. I mean, he is

2:55

always making jokes. They're

2:57

getting it right. Yeah. Zach Cherry, very

3:00

funny. Griffin lived

3:02

in an unknown fashion.

3:03

Unknown fashion. Oh, Zach Cherry

3:05

and Scorpio. Amazing. Sam Regal,

3:07

another friend of the podcast, passing future

3:10

guest, has said to me, sometimes I just random moments

3:12

in the day I stop and think How

3:14

is Griffin existing at this

3:16

moment? Yes.

3:17

Like stress being your friend. On a day to

3:19

day basis. What do you have in your oven?

3:22

Like,

3:22

what do you store in there? Oh, a lot of things.

3:24

I bet it's, like, toys. But, no. Right. Yeah.

3:26

Yeah. Not oven. Thank

3:28

you. The shoes, toys, like stuff. I

3:30

have I have a proper place for the shoes, but, yeah, toys

3:32

in looks basically. Some paperwork.

3:36

You know, my Social Security card

3:38

for a certificate. He

3:41

does this stuff. Anyone comes knocking, he

3:43

can just burn it all. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's

3:45

smart. Yeah. That's smart. Hey,

3:47

everybody. Mhmm. This is a podcast

3:49

called blank check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

3:52

Hi, David. It's podcast about thermographies,

3:54

directors have master

3:57

success early on in their careers and are given a

3:59

series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion

4:01

projects they want and sometimes those checks clear

4:03

and sometimes they bounce baby. Mhmm.

4:06

This is a mini series on the films of

4:08

Henry Selick. It is called

4:11

Ben Hawsley's, the pod mayor before

4:14

Casmos.

4:15

Oh, man.

4:16

I'm taking credit for this mini

4:18

series.

4:19

Yeah. You're the producer? Prices

4:21

always should be listed above the title. Producers

4:23

always get above the title credit.

4:24

That's how film works. And the directors have gotten

4:27

It works. And this pockets has director and we

4:29

don't talk about him. We don't talk about him ever.

4:31

Or yesterday, returning to the main feed,

4:33

returning to the public,

4:36

who's been demanding. To

4:39

talk

4:40

the best use of three d

4:43

in the history of cinema

4:45

I'll say it. I mean, it's my favorite

4:47

use of three d in history. I I don't think

4:49

of three d. That's my

4:50

drift is trying to revive a non argument

4:53

from years ago. I can't even remember what

4:55

this is, like, the maybe, like, this is one of the

4:57

Star Wars episodes. I think it is the Star Wars episodes.

4:59

That sounds right. Yeah. That we're probably discussing technology

5:02

Yeah. You know, movie pioneering

5:04

Katie Amato is here to talk Hello.

5:06

It's so good to be back. Hi, Katie. It's nice

5:08

to have you back. We had couple we had there

5:10

was a couple on the books that

5:12

went off the books because of busyness

5:14

stuff. So it's been a minute. Wait.

5:15

Wait. What was on the books? Oh, well, you were supposed

5:18

to be unable to at one point. That's that's what

5:20

it was that weird. There's another one I'm forgetting.

5:22

There's another one. I don't remember what. But it's been a

5:24

And there's your fabled April fool's day episode

5:26

before we never had it done. And that's

5:28

your decision by the way

5:29

too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

5:30

mean, it was an idea. It

5:32

just stated you explored it and you

5:34

kinda put it away and we supported you.

5:36

Yeah. Well, also COVID. And well, COVID

5:39

and Yes. -- and it's like the enthusiast. It it was something

5:41

that would've

5:41

It was a cute idea when It

5:43

wouldn't make

5:44

sense twenty nineteen. It would be ridiculous

5:46

for us to do it now. It would be bad. Yeah.

5:48

No one would be Thank you. I don't know if

5:50

we should say what it is. Oh, no. You shouldn't know it's

5:53

ever suddenly flew

5:55

over, but let's Yes. No.

5:57

No. I I like it. It was fairly a looser,

5:59

junkier time in the podcast. Yes.

6:01

Or it's kinda like, I don't know if we do some stupid

6:03

thing. Exactly. I don't think it would fit now. JD,

6:05

am I allowed to say that you're kind of like a Michael

6:08

Clayton of TV shows? Okay.

6:11

That's interesting. Describe Well,

6:14

day, you're you know who Michael Clayton is?

6:16

From the film Michael Clayton. George Clooney.

6:18

Yes. Yeah. He's like a fixer. Right.

6:20

It's like he's on staff and everyone's like, oh,

6:22

he's a lawyer. And they're like, well, he is a lawyer,

6:24

like, he passed the bar. I'm not even

6:27

saying that Like, the opening scene of Michael Clayton

6:29

is, like, Dennis O' Hair calling Michael Clayton

6:31

at three o'clock in the

6:32

morning. Michael Clayton is, like, fuck. Okay. This is

6:34

my number one priority now. Yes. I gotta

6:36

solve this. Yeah. And and you have

6:38

a lot of jobs -- Mhmm. -- that will come up

6:40

very last minute -- Yes. -- and that them

6:42

become all consuming for a couple

6:44

of months. Yeah. Some of

6:46

them are publicly known, some of them are not. Yep.

6:48

But so a couple of times over the last couple of

6:50

years, we've, like, had an episode on the books.

6:52

Yes. And then we're we're not trying

6:55

to withhold JD from the public. JD

6:57

is not hiding, but sometimes logistically

6:59

becomes impossible. Yeah. It's been I

7:01

mean, there's been so many ups and downs of

7:04

career stuff, COVID stuff, all of that things. It's

7:06

just weird because the entertainment industry has never

7:08

been better. It's it's the most comfortable,

7:10

calm, and stable it's ever been. Well, the hard thing

7:12

is is that your the the pot well,

7:15

I'll say this. It has been so much fun

7:17

to watch the podcast, continue

7:20

to grow, and evolve, and become

7:22

such a a big thing. We are

7:24

talking earlier about I when

7:26

I first did the podcast, we were in a

7:28

basement of a bar talking

7:30

about Star Wars. And

7:32

now you're complaining about two things. The

7:34

the basement of the bar was where he did his

7:35

Was talking to each other.

7:37

Oh, I guess. Oh, yes. But he were in the we were in

7:39

a fun closet. You're in a broom

7:41

closet. It was the four of us. That's true. That was

7:43

the first time David and I ever did a podcast

7:45

together was him subbing in for Riley Solomon

7:47

on the episode you did. Right. Yeah. But

7:49

anyways, the point being now it's been so

7:51

fun to see how, you know,

7:54

how many fans and how much people love

7:56

this show -- Mhmm. -- to the point where

7:58

no joke I've been in meetings.

8:01

Like, meetings with people who are big people

8:03

in the industry and they'll be like, I'm a big blankie.

8:06

I'm a huge fan of and and they'll, like, wanna talk

8:08

to me about, like, speed racer or

8:09

something. So I spent, like, truly, I feel

8:12

like, I get, like I mean,

8:13

to be fair, you that meeting was with Papa racer.

8:15

Right?

8:16

Yes. That that's what because of Papa

8:18

racer. Yeah. He was, like,

8:19

what's his Papa? Papa

8:20

Yes. Not John Goodman.

8:23

No. PoPs.

8:23

Yeah. PoPs. Yeah. Yeah. So it's been so

8:26

fun to see all of that stuff happen. But,

8:28

actually, it was with Royalton because they were trying to

8:30

get them to sign them the

8:31

dots. Oh, yeah. Sure. Royalton. Yeah.

8:33

Royalton Croft, and they're trying to launch streaming

8:35

service. Roltson wants workflow help

8:37

with how they're producing stuff. So I

8:39

got pulled in. I don't know if I ever share this anecdote

8:42

on Mike before, and maybe I'll keep it anonymous.

8:45

But a a friend of the show who

8:47

works in television had

8:50

a meeting with development

8:52

execs. Yeah. And they

8:54

were noting him on something that he thought was stupid.

8:57

And he pushed back

8:59

by saying, you know, on a recent

9:01

sort of blank check Griffin and David were saying,

9:03

citing this other movie as an example of

9:06

a story getting away with not having to do that

9:08

and actually working out better. And the exact

9:10

one, blank checks at that. Interesting.

9:13

And backed off the note. Oh my gosh. You guys

9:15

are notebusters. That's crazy. That's

9:17

maybe the most satisfying thing I've

9:19

heard about our podcast accomplishing is

9:22

killing bad exec nodes.

9:24

I think that's great. I heard a similar

9:26

story and I won't reveal the source but

9:28

there was, you know, someone who was

9:30

facing kind of a similar situation and

9:33

the executive was just like, I think

9:35

that this is this

9:37

scene. It's just too dry.

9:40

And the person pushed back and

9:42

they were like, but producer Ben.

9:44

Yeah. This is ridiculous. Love is

9:47

wet stuff. And I just really think we need

9:49

to keep this scene Moist as hell.

9:51

Why

9:51

is this scene about dry law abiding

9:53

citizens? Yeah. What?

9:56

Cry. Alright.

9:59

This is this is pinned back JD. Yes.

10:01

And nice to be here. This is one of those episodes

10:03

that was sort of just pinned off. Obviously,

10:06

CELLIC will happen eventually. Mhmm. If Wendell

10:08

and Wilde ever comes out and JD will do

10:11

Have you seen Wendell

10:11

and Wilde yet? I have not seen Wendell and Wilde

10:13

yet. It isn't able to see. Oh, it just

10:15

just sought this week. Mhmm.

10:17

At the time we're recording, it will go up on Netflix

10:20

tonight. Wow. Oh, like right.

10:22

It's going up on

10:23

Netflix. Yes. There's been an unpublishized Oscar

10:26

qualifying theatrical run. Oh, I didn't

10:28

know. Barely. Mhmm. And

10:30

then it's going up on Netflix tonight. At the time of

10:32

the recording, it will have been out for months by the time people

10:35

listen to this. But fucking rules.

10:37

It's good. You like it? I I really

10:39

like it. I really like it. And I'll say

10:41

this. This might

10:44

be one of the harder director

10:46

rankings at the end of this meeting. I was about was

10:49

about to ask and I'm like, oh, I think I forgot you'd

10:51

do the full ranking at the end. We do. It

10:53

can't also, it's not this is hard one,

10:55

because there's only five There's only

10:57

five. I mean, like, Farsi was a similar deal.

10:59

Right. But but this, they're they're

11:02

they're pretty close together. I know

11:04

shouldn't I ask a question? Okay. Are

11:07

your ones clear to you? Yes.

11:10

I think one and 2II think

11:12

their two movies pretty much dead tied for

11:14

one and two. I haven't rewatched

11:16

monkey bone as of the time of this Coraline.

11:18

Okay. But I think three, four, and five

11:20

might also all be on a similar

11:22

level. I think there's there's two. Two.

11:25

At, like, five star masterpiece

11:27

and then three movies I put between

11:29

three and four. Interesting. I mean,

11:31

I would agree with that. I just know I know what

11:33

the number one is. Yeah. I think that's

11:36

clear. Yeah. We're not

11:38

gonna say We're

11:38

not gonna say it. This is why can't be announcing in the

11:40

next episode. Alright.

11:41

Well, I I'm not gonna say anything.

11:42

I mean, I'd make I don't think I wanna say

11:44

about the coronavirus.

11:45

Yes. This is my favorite film that

11:47

Henry Selek has directed. I'm not giving

11:49

anything away or Okay. But,

11:51

like, this would be my favorite film. He's

11:53

made. Right. K? So that's, like, an

11:55

interesting.

11:56

That's just a little little dusting

11:58

of clues. Interesting. For people to, you know, you know,

12:00

they can follow the trail. Yeah. I mean, this movie

12:03

fucking rips. It is so good, Ben. You

12:05

had not seen it before. Really? No.

12:07

Okay. Never seen Marlon before. She's

12:09

kinda benny. Yeah. She's not

12:11

cool spooky, you know. Oh,

12:14

I did dig around in the barn. little

12:16

stinker. Look at -- Yeah. -- definitely a little bit of stinker.

12:18

Deliberately got some

12:20

tood I think even, like,

12:22

sort of similar dynamic somewhat with

12:25

my parents. They both like, working

12:27

pretty

12:28

nicely. Only child. Only child. Only

12:30

child. Even making that with more alcoholic

12:32

parents. You talk a lot about your,

12:34

like, only child symptoms syndrome

12:37

with older first time

12:39

parents who were very preoccupied with

12:41

their careers and adult stuff, quote unquote -- Yeah.

12:43

-- and didn't have time to, like, entertain

12:45

you. Definitely. Or go to your

12:47

level. I did not think about how

12:49

hard this movie might hit for you until

12:52

right now. Yeah. It it

12:54

got me in a place

12:56

where it's

12:58

so dreamlike and so I feel

13:00

like it really tapped into some kind

13:02

of interior place. Okay.

13:05

Here's a starter question. Because

13:07

you're the three of us have siblings. J

13:09

d David Lane. Yes. We have two older sisters.

13:11

Mhmm. What's our sibling count here? I'm oldest

13:14

of three. Right. But my brother's three years younger,

13:16

so I didn't have very long as

13:18

soul domain.

13:19

Yeah. Same. I'm I'm the older brother.

13:21

I do have a half sister, but I didn't grow up

13:23

with her. So, like, that sort of doesn't different

13:26

That's weird. So she was in New York, but you

13:28

didn't grow up with her.

13:31

Go on,

13:31

Jason. Ben,

13:32

what was your I I forget your siblings.

13:35

I mean, only He's the only child. He's

13:36

like, say, a little Right. Right. Okay.

13:38

Yes. Understood. Class a Coraline

13:40

bend over here. Yeah. Ben's a bit

13:43

of a coraline.

13:44

Yeah. I was an unpleasant kid too.

13:46

I don't think coraline is unpleasant. I

13:48

believe her. I do, but I choose a little

13:51

riddle. Like, there's a little strength of the movie.

13:53

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She because she's definitely in

13:56

pain mode. She's pain in the neck mode.

13:57

Like, her love

13:58

movie. The way that she does it, like,

14:00

she can't make friends really. Yes.

14:02

I related to -- Right. -- she's a little

14:05

prickly on a real meeting.

14:08

There's one kid you see or interact with the

14:10

entire movie. Yeah. To be fair, he's a little

14:12

annoying. I know, but she just she just comes on

14:14

so hard. She loves I mean, it

14:16

is also kind of the

14:18

movie. She's sort of, like, jokingly nagging

14:20

here. How how old do we like, Corons are with,

14:22

like, eleven or whatever.

14:23

Right? So So here's question. Yeah. I wanna start with.

14:25

Because I do feel like when you're, like, ten eleven,

14:27

like, boys and girls -- Yeah. -- we're get back then. We're

14:29

gonna dig into the psychology of Coraline. As

14:31

a character. Have Ben as Edward here read the

14:33

book.

14:34

No. No. I've not. I feel like we're

14:37

a generation tool for it. Yeah. Yeah.

14:39

I have read came out in two thousand

14:41

two. So it would have been like sixteen. Right. Yeah. And

14:43

I was like, rumbling my sister read

14:45

it, and I feel like not only read it, but it was just,

14:47

like, one of the books that everyone reads.

14:49

It's like it's a slim bar. It's a it's

14:51

a hundred new generationally as one of

14:53

the books that every kid reads when they can

14:55

read or capture books for the first

14:57

time. The book is really, really

14:59

good. I really recommend honestly. If if

15:02

anything in Coraline peaked your interest in the movie,

15:04

I would say, read the book. They're Neil Gaiman.

15:06

Neil Gaiman. They're different in a lot of

15:08

ways. One of the things that I think is interesting that

15:10

I wanna bring up is that in the book, I think

15:12

Coraline much younger. She feels

15:14

much younger. Yeah. The Coreline in the movie feels much

15:16

more much older and a lot more emotionally

15:19

verbal. Yeah. Yes. Right? Which I thought was very

15:21

interesting. She's quite capable.

15:24

Yeah. Which

15:24

is I love that in a animated

15:27

protagonist.

15:28

Like -- Yeah. -- she's still a kid, but

15:30

she's like a pretty independent, you

15:33

know, happily independent kid. Yeah. Exactly.

15:35

Yeah. And and very self assured.

15:37

She's quite self assured. Although, I would say,

15:40

you know, her pricklyness may belies

15:42

little bit of self

15:43

cut. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's another thing that

15:45

that was interesting is that In the adaptation

15:48

of the movie, a lot of the characters are a little pricklier

15:50

than the book, which is all was always

15:52

interesting to me because it's

15:53

got a little movie was made by a warm

15:55

hearted and generous man who's

15:58

always nice, so I don't get that at

16:00

all.

16:00

Yeah. Well, that I mean, there is a lot of

16:03

it's For a kids movie,

16:05

there's a lot of edge

16:07

running through this -- Yeah. -- and a lot of way Sean, what

16:09

we're gonna touch on is there's moments we

16:11

are like, A kids

16:13

movie? This is what, like But this

16:16

is what I mean, so this is one of the

16:17

reasons this is AAA

16:20

great film. Yes. Yes. And

16:22

the fact that this kid's fantasy like,

16:25

I'm that's my ostrich. I really think she I'm gonna

16:27

say she's eleven. I'm gonna say she's basically,

16:29

like, a fifth grader. Yeah. Right. The

16:31

fantasy of a kid that age is still

16:33

like I get everything

16:36

I want. It's almost a little

16:38

mean. Like, you know, like, you know what I mean? Like, it's

16:40

so selfish what she's the paradigm

16:42

she's being offered. Right. It's not just like

16:45

whatever video games and cakes. It's

16:47

like he's silent because you don't like

16:50

when he

16:50

talks. You

16:50

know what I mean? Like that, like, that's slightly unnerving,

16:53

like, lack of empathy that kids have.

16:55

The fascinating thing that she, like,

16:57

resents that her parents don't conform

16:59

to, like, traditional fifty sitcom

17:02

gender roles. Right. Right. Right. Right. And she

17:04

wants her dad to

17:06

act like father knows best and she wants her

17:08

mom to be in the kitchen baking with

17:10

an apron on.

17:12

Yeah. And I I think what's interesting, right,

17:14

is in the book and the movie in the

17:16

movie in particular. Right? The the

17:19

exploration seems to be of that

17:21

thing that you go through as a kid. Right? You have all these

17:23

hopes and dreams of what you

17:25

want your life to be. Yes. And then when

17:27

you actually interface those, you realize that's

17:30

like, oh, the life what? The

17:32

light that you have is a light that you want, which

17:34

I would say is the theme

17:36

of every Henry Selic film.

17:39

Yeah. Sure. Yes. Yes. Sure. Yeah.

17:41

Like, I'm a big proponent of the fact that

17:43

I think for a lot of directors,

17:46

most their films are about themselves in

17:48

some way. Right? And I think there's it's

17:50

inching's like I can think of, like, sort of, like, a lot

17:52

of categories of directors, but III can break

17:55

people down into two. There's directors who make

17:57

the same film over and over again. Mhmm.

17:59

And there's directors that make like a lot of different

18:02

movies. Yes. I always think it's

18:04

so interesting. A lot of people sometimes

18:06

begrudge directors or creators

18:08

that create the same thing over and over again where

18:10

it's like they're just doing the same thing. But if they're

18:12

good, they're revealing different. Yes.

18:14

And I think that's fascinating to me because

18:17

what that means is that that person's trying

18:19

to work something

18:19

out. Right. And they're just gonna keep

18:22

That's nice to work. I support it. This

18:24

is another thing. Director shouldn't

18:26

stray outside of what they're saying.

18:28

And when they try, Coraline, oh, this is why they don't

18:30

have any connection. Right.

18:31

Or they're not passionate, you know, it's like they're

18:33

not Yeah. Exactly. -- there there that

18:35

they're trying to wrestle with or process.

18:37

No. And I mean, it's so often when people

18:39

have this sort of like, oh, great. Another one

18:41

of these attitudes. I'm like, do you actually

18:44

want to see that director? Make

18:47

the type of movie that you claim you want

18:49

to

18:49

see. Right. Would you not rather see someone

18:51

else make that type of film? Right. Those persons

18:54

film cannot be for

18:56

your liking. But it's

18:58

like if you're complaining that Wes Anderson

19:00

is making a, you know, a

19:03

a tweet outsiders

19:05

versus systems comedy, tinted

19:08

with pathos and father issues. Then

19:11

it's like, what do you think you want

19:13

out of him? Maybe you just don't like him. That's

19:15

fine. Now, to that

19:17

end, yeah, Henry Selix is particularly

19:19

funny because it is so specifically

19:22

the same story over and over again. Right? Yes.

19:24

Sure. It is always like a character

19:26

who's, like, lured by circumstance

19:30

by their circumstance to

19:33

another universe. Sure.

19:34

So, like, a Skellington being alert to Christmas

19:36

town. James being alert to Peach.

19:38

For a A man being learned to

19:40

learn to the interiority of his

19:42

creativity or whatever. Right. And

19:45

at it's a place that at first might

19:47

be somewhere they want to be that's their dream they

19:49

like it and then it becomes evil

19:51

or there's challenges that -- Yep.

19:53

-- they they don't anticipate or

19:55

that aren't gonna solve the thing. And then

19:57

at the end, their their desires to get

19:59

back to

20:01

the world, which they start status quo. Yeah. Yeah,

20:03

I mean, the one exception to this is the

20:05

flip of James where and we talked

20:07

about this a lot in the episode. The first

20:10

twenty minutes of James are like the most unpleasant

20:12

reality ever -- Yes. -- committed

20:14

to film. That is the one in which the

20:16

character is correct, do

20:18

not want to be where Chris

20:20

is. And the thing he's dreaming of is

20:23

everything -- Yeah. -- that he hoped

20:25

it would be. And he has New York City.

20:27

He goes to New York cities. Rocco Dunlap

20:29

points at him. Everything's perfect. Right?

20:32

That's the one that's flipped. But

20:34

it is this thing I find fascinating, and it

20:36

really clicked for me watching name

20:38

for Christmas this time is, like, very often,

20:40

select characters don't really

20:42

learn their lesson. Right? They

20:45

turn to where they started --

20:46

Right. -- with the sort of arrogance --

20:49

Right. -- Jack Skellington definitely doesn't

20:52

really learn his lesson.

20:53

You have this this musical number

20:55

that's literally called, like, Jack's lament --

20:57

Yeah. -- poor Jack that ends with him

20:59

being, like, no. Fuck that. I'm not

21:01

gonna feel bad about myself, I fucking killed this

21:03

bomb. That's Christmas, Jack. The

21:05

bomb can get Like, it goes

21:07

back twice as resolute. James

21:10

Again, I mean, obviously, it's based on a

21:12

novel. But, like, when he he overcomes

21:14

-- Yeah. -- his fear, death, and, like, what his

21:16

parents went through. What you know, he confront something and

21:18

moves And

21:19

he comes back to reality. Yeah. Yeah. So

21:21

he he's a little different. And I I will not spoil

21:23

Wendell and Wild for you, but there's a sort

21:25

of a a reality underworld

21:28

thing. Right. Got it. But there's also

21:30

a the the current

21:32

day version of this town and the past version

21:34

of the town thing. He's once again dealing with.

21:36

There's always two realities. Yeah.

21:39

There's a character who starts in one dreams

21:41

of being in the other. Right. There's

21:43

always Macab kinda

21:45

Yeah. He's he's just hooky. He's just hooky

21:47

fuck. Yeah. Yeah. But

21:50

but I like it's it's I I remember

21:53

you know, because I I took wrongly my

21:55

sister see that she would have been It's two

21:57

thousand nine. So she's -- Oh, eleven years old. Yeah. -- she's

21:59

eleven at the time. It's Coraline aged. Perfect

22:01

age for this. Has read the book, loves the

22:03

movie. And they were talking

22:06

about it school, and her teacher was

22:08

like, that's not a good movie. Wait,

22:10

really? And she was affected by this. She

22:12

hit my back and was like, my

22:14

teacher was arguing that Coraline wasn't good.

22:17

You, like, you agree with me that Coreline's great. Right?

22:19

And I was like, yeah. What's this fucking argument. And

22:21

she was like, he says it's like dramatically

22:24

bad because she starts out

22:26

being sort of a brat, and she doesn't really learn her

22:28

lesson at the end of the movie, she's still a brat. And I'm

22:30

like, think that's interesting. The

22:33

I don't think that's true. think she does work. Changed,

22:35

but I think it's not in the sort of

22:38

holistic. She completely transformed

22:41

the way that a lot of very Pat movies

22:43

will give you. But she learns the lesson of,

22:45

like, I shouldn't take my annoying parents

22:48

for granted. They're all right. Yeah. No. It's very

22:50

close to my life circumstance. But a lot

22:52

of movies would it would be her hugging

22:54

them, crying, being a perfect

22:56

little girl, this and that. Even

22:58

when she, like, goes to why be and she sort

23:00

of, like, No. You're alright by

23:02

me. She's still nagging him when she

23:04

does that. But, like, the spirit of I like

23:06

that no one changes that much in a way that's

23:08

somewhat realistic within sell

23:10

out. I also think there's a thing that happens. Mhmm.

23:13

And I we don't have to go too far

23:15

down this rabbit hole, but there

23:17

is a notion especially in

23:20

American entertainment

23:22

that holds

23:25

on to the, like, Campbell's hero's

23:27

journey -- Yes. -- as the definer

23:29

of what a story is. And and the only

23:32

-- Yes. -- and it drives me -- Yes. --

23:34

right. Because there's people that are like, you know, a

23:36

story arc, like, you know -- Right. -- at beginning middle

23:38

end, it's an arc you come in. It's like, that

23:40

is a type of story that is a, you know,

23:42

obvious you can get into the that's

23:45

intersectionality of where that comes from and

23:47

what that represents in terms of, like, the,

23:49

you know, Greek and Roman storytelling

23:52

-- Yes. Down through their empire or

23:54

concrete, you know, all this stuff. But

23:57

I'd say it's very limiting. Yes. And it's very

23:59

limiting. And I think some

24:01

of some great stories don't

24:04

fit into that rubric. And I think that

24:06

can unsettle people when it's not like

24:09

Oh, the exact and and not to that

24:11

Coraline pretty

24:13

pretty hero's journey. So it's not

24:15

we're not far off. It's Christine. She's

24:17

She can still he sort

24:19

of defies that always because the

24:22

growth is so kind of quiet and internal

24:24

as much as their crazy externalized circumstances

24:27

around the

24:28

characters. Yeah. It does feel

24:30

like it's it's slight changes that happen

24:32

within them. Yeah. I mean, it's it's hitting all the beats

24:34

of the Campbell App Store. But the point being,

24:36

I like a character sometimes that doesn't

24:38

learn their lesson. Yes. Because the point of storytelling

24:41

to me is not that the characters learn a lesson.

24:43

It's at the viewer. This is the audience

24:45

point. Well, that's fair. That's good point. like that.

24:47

I mean, I agree with you on that. And it's fair. People

24:49

don't always have to be learning lessons. The lessons are

24:51

overrated. But this movie reminds me

24:53

a lot of spirited away one of my favorite movies

24:55

ever. Very similar. And, like, there's a lot of movies for

24:57

a lot of children's stories along these lines where

24:59

the lessness Coraline you

25:02

you lose your parents, your parents are taken

25:04

away for whatever reason temporarily.

25:07

Yeah. You have to, you

25:09

know, struggle on your own

25:11

And then when you get them

25:12

back, you have improved or

25:14

you have had that experience. And

25:16

you're happy to see them. But you are different

25:18

because you're like, well, I did make it without you.

25:21

Right. And there's, like, that's, like, very satisfying

25:23

when you're a kid. Also, that you kinda

25:25

know the world sucks now. Like, there's something

25:27

about this exact idea of talking about

25:29

eleven. Sure. Absolutely. You're

25:31

starting to become autonomous enough that

25:33

you're like, why isn't anyone fucking telling me what to do?

25:35

Why can't I do everything the way I want to? But

25:37

the sort of like crushing existential

25:41

dread of like teenager dumb

25:43

has not hit yet. Yes. Eleven

25:46

year old, twelve year old, have you ever has anyone

25:48

ever read? You probably haven't. Has anyone here

25:50

ever read the book the thief of Always?

25:52

By Clive Parks. Yes. Yes. I have read.

25:54

Yes. That's a similar book. similar

25:56

story to this. It's And and Barker and Game in

25:59

both sort of they're similar guys. Right.

26:01

But British, who likes to upgrade children's stories

26:03

even though that's not the number one. Actually dabbling

26:05

young adult, and you're like, oh, this is spicy

26:08

young adult. Right. Right. Right. And I love it was one

26:10

of my favorite books as a child. And I've read

26:12

it a million times. It's the same thing of, like, the kid

26:14

is tempted to another place. Right. It's

26:16

a paradise. The Coraline is

26:18

a false

26:19

paradise. When it's the same lesson

26:21

of, like, he's going home. He'll be safe.

26:23

He remains a kid. Yeah. It's not

26:25

like he's going home and he's thirty five years old.

26:27

Yeah. But he did he

26:29

did all this on his own and that's valuable.

26:32

Yeah. And this typeface in the Hellraves universe? Yeah.

26:34

It does not. But it's yeah. You should read it. It's

26:36

I mean, you'll read it in a in a day. It's

26:38

so fucking

26:39

good. Little aside. I always think

26:41

about how the one senior bite is a kid that

26:43

really messes me up.

26:44

Yeah. That sucks. That's I just watched

26:46

how razor I was like when a kid

26:47

is raised in scintology, Like, you didn't

26:49

even give them a change? Yeah. Sure.

26:51

Because there's there's the point When they see

26:53

the bike's always fucked with it, they're gonna have kids.

26:55

Don't can't relate to this. Spend the season. Well, makes

26:57

about why that really surprised to be a

26:59

sense. Sorry. What? Well,

27:02

the mic yeah. Confused that. I'm saying one

27:04

of this Cenobites the kid. Ben no.

27:06

Ben is confused by you presenting that as a negative.

27:08

Yeah. I don't get it. Okay. What's wrong

27:10

with all the Cenobites like at

27:13

some point revert back to, like, what they look

27:15

like as normal people when they, like, summon the

27:18

Lament Configuration. And, like, one of

27:20

them is like a kid. And I'm

27:21

like, that's dark.

27:24

Sure. It's very uncomfortable. Ben spent his

27:26

entire Hellraiser doesn't make me uncomfortable.

27:29

Okay. Most of time. That's been his entire

27:31

child. Definitely very comfortable. Just quick running

27:33

around for lament configurations. He was trying to

27:35

become a Cenabyte child. Yeah. Absolutely. Just about

27:37

here. If we all had the lement configuration,

27:41

who here would have put it together and just

27:43

some in the Cino Bites.

27:44

Absolutely. Do what do I what do I know?

27:46

You know. I know what's gonna happen. Yeah.

27:48

You know, eBay,

27:50

and what happened? Like, it's gone.

27:52

I don't want it. But I think the idea of the Lament

27:55

Configuration

27:55

is, like, if you're being handed it,

27:57

the guy already knows you wanna fuck with it.

27:59

Yes. It

28:00

is not

28:00

just like, oh, I have found this and you figured

28:02

out yourself. It's like, it's someone who's just like, look,

28:04

I've tried every right,

28:05

miss, you you're having one. It's just the colonel

28:07

call to it, like, you're not. It's I

28:09

mean, every seconds later, I would

28:11

have it. Yeah. The

28:13

guy that that that that whatever antique

28:15

dealer would -- Oh, sure. -- wouldn't even be done explaining

28:18

what it is. I'm better

28:18

back. I finished it. He was throwing in his breath

28:21

to blow the dust off, and I could

28:23

tolerate it. Ben Ben would post

28:25

wanted ads for Lament configurations on

28:27

Craigslist. I just rewatched

28:30

Hellraiser because Got eBay Alert. Ben's

28:32

looking

28:32

at things in common state. And we had to,

28:35

like, calm down. Yeah. Right. He

28:37

takes the myself. Give me

28:39

those fucking shit. I was

28:41

upstate with David earlier. Number one show. And

28:44

he'd never seen it. And I was like, alright. Fuck.

28:46

And then we were seeing hell rates? Yes. And I was

28:48

like, one of

28:48

those He calls him Alpha credit. Exactly.

28:51

And we put it on. And of course,

28:53

to his surprise -- Uh-huh. -- you know, the cenobites

28:55

don't show up in that movie Coraline a full hour.

28:57

Yes. Yeah. And he was like, wait,

28:59

this movie is about, like, a lady who,

29:01

like, cucked her husband with his filthy

29:04

brother. Like, because that's mostly what

29:06

hell rates are gonna happen in while. It's it's

29:09

it's about the the guy a guy so horny

29:12

he had to call the Cenobites. That's perfect.

29:14

Done it all. It's one of those franchises where

29:17

the first movie is so different from

29:19

the cultural -- Right. -- idea of what the franchise

29:21

Parker has no control of the sequel. In the sequels, they were,

29:23

like, set up Cinebites wall to wall. Right?

29:25

Possibly one. See how many are, like,

29:27

six is, like, it's, like, a a

29:29

cop drum. It's like a saw

29:31

movie. Anyways

29:32

No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna pause for a moment

29:34

and just imagine somebody about this

29:36

word. That's what it is. Something like a

29:39

detective's song.

29:42

I wanna imagine the image for second of

29:44

the two David's upstate and a

29:46

little log cabin with the fire going and

29:49

hot cocoa in their hands. So

29:50

Why so many people left back home in your No.

29:52

No. They were there. I mean, come on.

29:54

But this is the image I want. The whole thing, I take

29:56

these trips with this every year, and tell you something.

29:59

We always leaf peep. We always have a leaf

30:01

keep in weekend. Me and David an hour.

30:03

Oh, no. Keep in weekend. I go

30:05

upstate you keep some leaves because the

30:07

leaves are changing. You thought that Read this term.

30:10

Definitely. Oh, no. That's it. That's it. Let's

30:12

leave Peeping. We I mean, I leave Peeping.

30:14

Deferred you as the Peeping. I've never heard You've Peeping

30:16

to leave for two. Oh, absolutely. I love people.

30:18

And we actually nailed the week on this

30:20

episode. He's

30:21

sleeping. He's had good colors who made

30:23

it the United States before. Oh,

30:25

yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. The Americas should have been

30:27

called peak peak solvania.

30:29

Anyway, But

30:33

I just that's an old John Stewart joke that always got

30:35

me where it's, like, you know, America, Vespucci. Right?

30:37

Because, like, there's a reason, you know, it's not called

30:39

Vespucci and Idol. I always thought it

30:41

was funny.

30:43

We watch we we watch all ritual

30:45

movies sort of by, miss. We watch that movie, the

30:47

ritual.

30:48

Yeah. Yes. Yes. That's a rich

30:50

one. I think that's the rich one. It's a

30:51

good monster and it's not very good.

30:53

Which one's the wait. It's like a bunch of guys

30:55

go hiking in Sweden and, you know,

30:59

classic like, ah, this trail is too

31:01

long. Let's take a shortcut through the haunted

31:02

park. It's worked out well in twenty seventeen. No,

31:04

I have not seen it. It's like not

31:07

that good, but it has good monster. Has a

31:09

fun month. I love good month. And then we watched Lear of

31:11

the White

31:11

Worm. Have you seen that? The Ken Russell movie?

31:13

No. Great movie. I checked that

31:15

out. Very campy eighties Ken

31:17

Russell at the end of his life. Young Hugh Grant.

31:20

Oh, ritual is the it Brookner, the

31:22

night house. Yes. Howard The night house guy. Yeah. Okay. And right.

31:24

And, of course, he Hellraiser. You did the new Hellraiser. And

31:26

then so when Hellraiser came up, I was, like, look,

31:28

we're we're in ritual territory. This

31:30

is, like, the most ritual movie ever.

31:32

Right? Right.ritual. Yeah.ritual's wall to wall.

31:35

Anyway, I can't remember why I was talking about

31:37

this.

31:38

So anyways, Coraline I

31:40

mean, it's the immense Coraline

31:42

summoned to the other two. The same thing

31:44

of, like, you do the thing

31:47

you probably shouldn't do.

31:48

Right? You open the door. You go

31:49

to the place. You you're summoned to the void.

31:51

And you are summoned and it is now

31:53

you're in, like like,

31:56

another world where

31:57

it's, like, what are the rules here? Yes, sir.

31:59

And to get back to where that's all started, which was

32:01

what Griffin was saying was, I I

32:04

There is a thing in cinema

32:06

or in life that we explore through cinema

32:10

that age of like six to eleven

32:12

where you start experiencing this

32:14

this desire for

32:15

independence, but it's not

32:17

the teenage desire for independence where you

32:19

wanna fly from the nest. It's that you want to

32:21

know that you can fly from the nest. You just

32:23

wait. You wanna you wanna push against the boundary.

32:26

Maybe get your hand out -- Right. -- and then be

32:28

like, okay. Okay. Alright. Alright. And I will say And then

32:30

you retreat into being like, I want my parents

32:32

to fucking do shit for me while

32:34

they still can. Like -- Sure. -- there becomes

32:36

a balance of what do I want my parents to fucking

32:39

handle so I don't have to deal with? Which adult

32:41

adult responsibilities do I wanna avoid,

32:43

and which things do I wanna push further away

32:45

from?

32:45

Yes. And once that's taken away, the

32:47

the comfort of your parents, that that that got that

32:50

it's a really scary feeling. I think the master of this

32:52

is Miyazaki. Right? Like, you look at all of his men.

32:54

It's, like, totoro is the great example

32:56

of

32:56

that. It's this fear of being without

32:58

your parents? I I mean, think spirited away is

33:00

the the group. Yes. It's scarier. Yes. Because

33:02

the parents literally transform. It's frightening.

33:05

You don't know if they're coming back. And then course

33:07

her identity is under threat. Todoro

33:10

is, like, the more younger kid

33:12

--

33:12

Yes. -- even younger. It's, like,

33:14

you know, we're being independent and you're

33:17

you understand that there, like

33:19

But you understand that we could not be

33:21

there, and that's the fear

33:22

that you're That's that's what they're kind of like

33:24

working through. I also I feel like

33:26

this is thing that gets thrown around

33:29

too often. And perhaps too lightly

33:31

now. But this does feel

33:34

like one of those few movies you could

33:36

put into like American

33:39

Glee esque films. Yes. And

33:41

and a big part of it is, you know, all movies

33:43

we've been talking about, the first two

33:46

purely stop motion CELEC movies

33:48

are seventy five minutes long. Right?

33:50

Right. Most stop motion films were, like,

33:52

seventy five minutes long. It takes a while to make these things.

33:55

This movie is like one forty. It's pretty

33:57

much like one thirty four before

33:59

credits. That

34:01

extra fifteen minutes it feels like

34:04

is mostly devoted to The the term

34:06

is Ma. Right? Isn't

34:09

Ma the term that Miyazaki uses?

34:12

For, like, the sort of moments of

34:14

existence -- Mhmm. -- in between

34:16

-- Yes. -- the story thought. Like, there's

34:18

things in this movie, like, when Coraline

34:20

is playing sort of

34:23

occupying herself with the lump

34:25

in the in the rug.

34:26

I wrote that down as I was

34:27

watching. Yeah. That's the to me, that's

34:29

the moment. That I felt

34:31

was this film operating at its

34:33

best when she's that there's this sort

34:35

of bunched up part of the carpet that she keeps

34:38

stepping on. That's To me, that

34:40

was the movie that fell. And when she

34:41

goes to the clothing store with her mother and she's trying

34:43

to get her attention -- Yeah. -- things that you have,

34:45

like, the robust prologue, epilogue

34:48

that I feel like Yes. Would be the thing you'd

34:50

cut if you're like, fuck. We can only afford

34:52

seventy minutes. Oh, so for a movie that's so much

34:54

about the boredom of this girl. It does spend

34:56

time in the boredom. It does spend time

34:58

in that feeling it evokes so well of when you're

35:01

a child and you're looking for anything to keep you

35:03

entertained. How to turn anything into a

35:05

game, especially if you're lonely. You

35:07

know? And, you

35:10

know, animation is so difficult. I feel

35:12

like this is sort of the point that Miyazaki always

35:14

tries to make is that, like, most people

35:16

don't wanna spend the effort to

35:19

depict those small moments because those

35:21

small moments aren't free in the way they

35:23

are in a live action film. You can just have

35:25

an act Not Malek. You can't Do you want a camera

35:28

to Danilo? Ten seconds on screen.

35:30

Right? That you have it takes as much

35:32

craft to make this thing happen. It's so expensive.

35:35

It's so time consuming. But those

35:37

moments are really important. And

35:39

especially for this film in setting like a tone

35:41

and a mood that is very different

35:43

than most American animated films.

35:45

As much as this falls into the spooky

35:48

stop motion world. In a spooky.

35:50

There there's a patience and like a weird

35:52

quiet to this movie.

35:54

Yeah. I I will say since I know

35:56

sometimes as a blank checklist for myself,

35:59

I don't haven't watched the movies sometimes.

36:01

And so to those who are are catching

36:04

up the the basic premise of Coraline it's

36:06

just like

36:06

supply. Let me in fact, let me crack open the dossier

36:08

and let me talk about the slide. Alright. So we

36:11

haven't talked monkeybone yet full disclosure.

36:13

We haven't that's the we have

36:14

not recorded that episode. But -- Oh, interesting.

36:16

-- Ben has yet to get boned. Oh, my head?

36:19

Not boned. Ben. So monkey

36:21

boned was maybe, like, the end most into been

36:23

a film of my childhood. It was way up there for

36:25

me as well. I was like, because I

36:27

knew I was a big animation nerd Mhmm.

36:29

-- and I knew who Henry Selick was, and I was

36:31

like, Oh my gosh. Making a live action

36:34

film. And I feel like the premise of Monkey Bone

36:36

is like the first idea most

36:38

kids have when they're like it's like, oh, and then

36:40

you go inside all the characters like

36:42

it's such a -- Yeah. -- classic. And so

36:44

I was like, this is gonna maybe be the best

36:46

movie ever made. Did you see it? I did see

36:48

it. And what'd you think? It's a very

36:51

long

36:51

movie. It's

36:52

what I remember as a kid. Right. But as a kid,

36:54

you were not, like, I like that. I don't

36:56

get why people didn't like that. No. You're not, like I

36:58

struggled with it as a kid. I liked lot as

37:00

a kid. I'm very curious to rewatch it. I haven't

37:02

seen it in probably twenty years, but I watched

37:04

it multiple times as a kid and was always defender

37:06

even in the face of, like, most

37:09

people shitting on it. It was equally anticipated

37:11

for me, but I was at an age where I was

37:13

capable of clocking a movie like that as

37:15

a disappointment. Like, yeah, I wasn't planning

37:18

the apes as that same year, and I was like,

37:20

I know this isn't working. I can't even lie to

37:22

myself that much on this one. I think

37:24

think module one is the first time that I was like,

37:26

oh, it might It

37:28

might There is that thing

37:30

where you might not

37:31

be Wait. Also, when when you see movies,

37:33

when you're, again, around ten or eleven, you start being

37:35

like, I didn't like

37:37

that. Right. Think. Because I used to like every

37:39

movie

37:40

ever, but this one wasn't so good.

37:42

Yeah. Exactly. Like because I remember I like

37:44

monkeybone. I'm sure there's stuff in it now

37:46

as an adult I'd watch and really enjoying back.

37:48

that's cool. But I remember as a kid being like,

37:51

oh, this is what I imagined it was gonna

37:53

be. I remember my parents would always

37:55

talk about dark Crystal that way. We're like,

37:57

I love dark crystal as a kid and they're like,

37:59

it's so long.

38:02

It's a really long movie. And as always,

38:04

like, no, it's great because That was what

38:06

a movie was. It's also not that long, really.

38:08

It's not even that long. I think it probably

38:11

just not long. It's just really slow

38:13

-- Yeah. -- that film. A movie I love

38:15

And it also is, like, incredibly oblique

38:17

plot wise. Like, it it's one of those movies

38:20

where famously, Henson wanted

38:22

to try to tell story with this little dialogue as

38:24

possible and originally no sense.

38:27

But to this point,

38:31

Monkeybone was highly anticipated and

38:33

then was for a long time in that

38:35

state where it was like delayed

38:38

for a very long time, very extended

38:40

post production process. They moved it around

38:42

the schedule like eighteen times it

38:44

finally comes

38:45

out. It's dumped at the beginning of the year. What I

38:47

was gonna say? Right. Palms really It

38:49

made five million against the seventy

38:51

five million dollar budget, and that's before everything.

38:54

It it was arguing. One of her. The big big

38:56

disaster this year, and there was a real

38:58

sort of gang up, like, this is a

39:00

disaster. But a huge problem was

39:03

that Foxes, like, animation product,

39:05

which this was not, but it was still under build

39:07

mechanic, which -- Yeah. --

39:08

too. You know, was a disaster like

39:10

Anastasia did well, but tight NAI was big

39:12

bomb and, like -- Yeah. -- so, like, it

39:14

did But it didn't have x animation -- Exactly. --

39:16

and by the habit of some quarters. Fox animation

39:19

is dead. And so it's really shifted from being

39:21

a Fox animation project to a Fox Live

39:23

Action project where no one wanted it.

39:25

So director jail

39:27

for Henry's Yes. Right. You know, you'd

39:30

like fuck you. You you you you caused

39:32

us so much money. Truly felt like one of those things

39:34

that he might never come out. Right? was such a sort

39:36

of radioactive bomb

39:39

Yes. Neil Gaiman, around

39:41

that time, does hand him his

39:43

upcoming Coraline. Mhmm. And,

39:46

you know, This Alec

39:48

is intrigued, but also is, like,

39:50

I saw a movie in it, but I felt like it

39:52

needed more flesh on its bones just because the story

39:55

is quite short. He

39:58

did take it to Bill Mechanic -- Mhmm.

40:01

-- who is, like, write a screen put.

40:03

Preagent this point. Yeah. Exactly. But, like, you

40:05

know, I guess, just looking for a supporter. Mhmm.

40:07

Gaming is like, you

40:10

take it from here. Like, you know, I'm not gonna be

40:12

flushing. Like, I trust you. Mhmm.

40:15

Like, that's it. Game in famously

40:18

sort of in and out. Sometimes he's very hands

40:20

on with adaptations of his work because

40:22

he's been burdened. This is around this time.

40:24

Yeah. He's doing mirror mask, which is like

40:26

Yeah. -- his yeah. Let's hit him and

40:28

Dave McKen big, like, visual project.

40:30

Right. Yeah. The biggest thing that

40:33

Selic does obviously is he adds the character

40:35

of why be -- Yes. -- because he

40:37

was, like, she needs to talk to someone. Literally.

40:40

Which because I said the book is

40:41

obviously, I'm sure, all in her head, like,

40:43

internal narration or whatever. I really

40:46

like Coraline. Mhmm. I'll say that's it's movie

40:48

that I really like. My hotteg is I

40:50

don't think we need wybe. You

40:51

don't like wybe? But he's got a little

40:53

mask. Oh, look at it. He's like,

40:55

well, he's wearing mask, but I I get where you're

40:57

coming from because think it was

40:59

necessary, but I do like him as a character.

41:01

Because I think it would force us to have more

41:03

of a He is suing why b posture. Yeah.

41:05

Doom being He's he's got a little eye gourder.

41:08

think it would force us into having more

41:10

alone time Coraline, which maybe would slow

41:12

down the think it

41:13

just might be tough literally for kids to

41:15

handle that little dialogue. I think

41:17

it's true. Yeah. But I you

41:19

know, so and it I like Weybe.

41:21

I'm pro Weybe. I'm a huge

41:24

fan of just his fucking mask

41:26

helmet. Whatever

41:27

it is. He's a dirt bike. He's not Yeah. I mean,

41:29

it's dirt bike. Absolutely. would be easy for

41:31

a

41:31

character like

41:32

that, though, on a little dirt bike with a skeleton

41:34

costume to feel a

41:36

little, like, kid movie

41:38

cool. You know what I mean? Like, real young boy.

41:40

You're kinda sick hit on the skateboard or whatever. But

41:43

but he's so

41:44

too genuinely awkward. Right? Yeah.

41:46

That's That's sort of sweet.

41:48

Yes. So he

41:49

transplants it to America. That's the other big thing he

41:51

does. The book is Yes. I also

41:53

think there's a

41:55

a little bit of literalizing of

41:57

the events that goes on in the movie that

41:59

the book is a little more

42:01

keeps them internalized a little bit more. I think

42:04

the book also it's like she goes to the other world

42:06

once and stuck there. Like,

42:08

Selic is the one who makes it more black, which I

42:10

love. Yeah. Me too. Where's he like I wanted into

42:12

the role of how all of these movies work?

42:15

Like, JJ and his dossier's keeps

42:17

on coming back. Maybe she does. Yeah. He

42:19

he just says he built it up like, he

42:20

wanted her to get multiple times. wanted it to feel,

42:23

like, maybe it's a dream.

42:25

Right? Like, maybe it's, like, this is happening when falls

42:27

asleep. Well,

42:27

I think I think that book is more like that. Fair

42:29

enough. I think this, there's, like, a lot like,

42:32

story context of why being, like, my

42:34

grandmother's says, oh,

42:36

it becomes more literal, like, oh, this bad thing

42:38

is actually happening, which I

42:40

think

42:40

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I hear

42:42

really badness. This strangest thing is

42:44

that Bill Mechanic had a production deal

42:47

with Disney -- Mhmm. -- that he had

42:49

signed that prevented him from

42:51

developing animated product projects.

42:54

Specifically. And so they had to

42:56

initially pretend that they were planning on

42:58

this being a live action film. Wow.

43:01

And Michelle Pfeiffer was considered

43:04

for the other mother. I mean, would be

43:06

Makes sense. Yeah. But

43:08

that's kind of one reason. It just is sort

43:10

of floating in development

43:13

for a long time. I wonder if that was

43:15

like AAA non compete thing

43:17

if that's some vesting of his foxes. It's like,

43:19

yeah. Yeah. You can't come aboard, buddy. Yeah. But, like,

43:21

we're Disney, so we're already doing animated.

43:23

Right. So you can't, like, bring us anime it

43:25

films, I guess. Yeah. Well, there's also the

43:28

the destroyed history of Leica's creation,

43:30

of which this is What's the ballpark of

43:32

it? Because that's yeah. But in between,

43:34

First, the guy who comes to Selic while he's in

43:36

director jail is West Anderson because West Anderson

43:39

uses him for the life of aquatics. Yes.

43:41

Right? To build the low stop motion animals

43:43

-- Yeah. -- the whales or whatever the Which it truly

43:46

feels like this is what it's

43:48

called? What's the the jaguar shark?

43:50

Yeah. But all the all the aquatic

43:52

life Yes. In Life Aquatica, all all the Fisher

43:54

Henry's Alec, which I think a lot of people weirdly

43:57

don't know, but it felt very much

43:59

like, well, this is what his career is

44:01

gonna be. Yeah. He's gonna be one of

44:03

these guys where you're like, oh,

44:05

Jack Cardiff was, like, the

44:08

greatest cinematographer in history And

44:10

then he made a film that got nominated for Best Picture.

44:13

He did a couple more exploitation movies.

44:16

My voice is all fucked up today. Excuse me. And

44:19

then pretty much went back to being a cinematographer.

44:21

Right. Like, is this a guy who was

44:24

indie, commercial, animation

44:26

director, made a couple movies

44:28

and now is just sort of for hire

44:31

doing effects on other people's movies, doing

44:33

short term projects, small, short form projects.

44:35

Right. But the other thing, of course,

44:37

the sort of fork in the road thing is that

44:39

because they collaborate well on,

44:41

like, for aquatics, Salik is, like,

44:43

you should direct fantastic mister

44:45

Fox, which I'm which I'm developing. Mhmm.

44:48

And Selic was gonna do it and backed

44:50

out because Coraline

44:53

was suddenly greenwood. He was like,

44:55

this was my original project. I'm sorry.

44:57

I have to do this. They had it set up at revolution

45:00

I think it also never did. Well, that's the thing.

45:02

Right. I think it also took

45:04

a long time for that movie to get off the ground

45:07

because revolution was

45:08

collapsing. Right. And eventually Fox

45:10

had to buy it out of turnarounds. But, yes,

45:12

for a couple years there, it was like Wes Henderson

45:14

and Henry Selick are gonna direct this together,

45:16

and that's his way to get out of jail is

45:19

teaming up with another director, which

45:21

can we imagine I

45:23

don't I'm so curious how

45:25

that collaboration

45:26

I mean, I they're two based on they're

45:28

two guys with particular points of view. I have

45:30

no idea. Based on sort of, like, what I've heard from

45:32

you. Seems like a friendly fellow, I will say.

45:34

No. Maybe not. I

45:35

have no idea. I've never I don't know. Like,

45:37

in interviews, he doesn't come across as

45:39

some sort of like No. No. No. I think he's

45:41

a friendly fellow, but they're both

45:44

famously control freaks? Yes.

45:46

Right. Like, incredibly particular, exacting

45:49

artists. Exactly. And and,

45:51

of course, select says when and it was this

45:53

is his quote. Wes Anderson still mad at me, but I

45:55

said, look, I worked on before I ever met you in this

45:57

opportunity, has come up and he

45:59

hooked him up with Mark Gustaf and -- Yes.

46:01

-- who is, like, the guy who led the

46:03

animation on different. So, like but,

46:06

I mean, Selek Singh and Anderson still mad

46:08

at me. I think Selek perceives a lot of enemies

46:10

around him at all times. I don't know to what extent West

46:12

Anderson is mad at him. Oh, yeah.

46:14

Hard to say. Hard to say. Hard to say.

46:16

But that right. It's like that's a momentary.

46:19

Does this get CELEC out of jail thing

46:21

that that doesn't

46:22

happen?

46:23

If they fought, who do you think would?

46:26

When Physically? Yeah. I think

46:28

Selic. I think Selic is tough to

46:30

beat. He's wiring. Yeah. Well,

46:32

Selic is, like, slender man. That's what

46:34

saying though. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, it feels like

46:36

he sort of, like, scrambles up onto the ceiling and drops

46:39

on toppier or something. They both fall into the

46:41

category of directors who look

46:43

like they belong in their own movies. I think

46:45

West Anderson has, like, a blunderbust. Like, you

46:47

know, he's got, like, sort of weird anti

46:49

hunting gear.

46:50

Yes. Sets his, like, con like, if there's, like, a

46:52

moral combat with, like, video game or He's

46:54

right with the Don't press

46:56

Have you announced the brawler that you guys are We

46:58

should do a cyber smash bros with, you

47:00

know, directors. We

47:03

should think of more of those. Yeah. But what's the

47:06

name? I don't know. Let's get you a bowling

47:08

alley. Celik in two thousand

47:10

four has hired at something called Vinton

47:13

Studios -- Yes. -- which is, like, Clay Mason

47:15

Studios -- -- something David.

47:17

-- will Vinton -- David. -- David David.

47:19

David, your ignorance is showing.

47:21

Pull your fucking hands up. I

47:23

was never claiming not

47:26

ignorance. Of Wilburton. Wilburton

47:28

and Wilburton. These studios are massively important.

47:30

Yes. He's the California raisins. Ten

47:33

minutes talking about -- No. -- you don't understand

47:35

how important this is. Five. Gotta say

47:39

Love this guy's back. First off, he looks

47:40

It looks like he's about to sell it. Look like one

47:42

of his character. So this okay. That This

47:45

is gonna this opens up, like, ten things I need talk

47:47

about. You

47:47

don't understand how important the defendant is

47:49

to stop motioning. I've never ever

47:52

ever ever said otherwise. I want to be very thing

47:54

cold. I'm reading I'm cold

47:56

reading a

47:57

dossier. I am not saying anything

47:59

else. Did you say

48:00

Wilvin doesn't matter anymore? I

48:02

didn't say something meaning what it's

48:04

called. You said he can lick your farts.

48:07

Goddamn it.

48:10

David. Yeah. Once again

48:12

-- Uh-huh. -- for the first time in

48:15

twenty twenty three -- Blah. --

48:17

this episode a blank check at twenty three

48:19

Trump Yeah. No. No. No. I knew. I knew I

48:21

recognized it. Subsets brought you by Mubi.

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Go off movie. Yeah. You know what I

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mean? You can watch movies anywhere. It's a

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it's a good app. It's a a good

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it's a good it's a

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good point. And the thing

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with movies is it's great. Mhmm. You

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discover the best of cinema your fingertips

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streaming anytime, anywhere, and there are

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two specific things. Yeah.

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There's two cool things that they wanna recommend. Specifically

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the US and in many other countries exclusively

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on Mubi. Number one, The

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Kingdom, Exodus. Kingdom

49:06

Exodus, which is the I guess, is

49:08

it sort of the third season of Lars

49:10

Van Trere's sort of

49:12

intermittent -- Yeah. -- hospital television

49:15

masters doing peaks. That's

49:17

exactly what it is. It is his twin peaks. Yes.

49:20

He did a third season. And,

49:22

you know, it's really, really cool

49:24

and interesting. It's about a it's a ghost story about hospital

49:26

built on top of the bleaching ponds

49:29

in Copenhagen where evil and science are

49:31

interacting. Have you ever seen the kingdoms? They're so good.

49:33

I have not. I need to. I weirdly own them on

49:35

VHS. Friend of the show Joe Garden

49:37

gave them to me once. It is premiering

49:40

on Mubi. It's on Mubi right now exclusively

49:42

the kingdom exodus. And the restored

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So you got the whole series right

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there. They've also, of course, got decisionally,

49:55

decisionally. Park Chen looks -- Yes. -- twenty twenty

49:57

two? Yes. Masterclass? Yes.

49:59

Now I just finally saw it. Oh,

50:02

did you Blind spot for me. Getting ready for

50:04

the blankies are you? I am. And I'll say

50:06

this about it. It is absolute movie.

50:08

I think you need to watch twice. That's true.

50:10

It's actually really good on the second viewing. I haven't seen

50:12

it twice. Wow. Fifteen minutes into the movie.

50:14

I was like, I can't wait to watch this a second

50:17

time because I know I'm gonna It

50:19

is it is a film that is purposefully

50:21

kind of disorienting. Yes. In

50:24

a good way, it I think is masterfully

50:26

made. But I think it is a film

50:28

that I can only magical reward on further

50:30

viewings, and you can watch as many times as you want a

50:32

movie. That's right. It's a twisted romantic

50:35

thriller and captivating detective drama

50:37

Mhmm. -- kind of hitchcocky and -- Yeah. -- it's

50:39

a really good movie. Anyway and, you know, we'll be released

50:41

it. Movie was actually did you say tripater on

50:43

it. I saw it in a theater yesterday, and there was the

50:46

movie fanfare before

50:47

it. It was exciting to see. The

50:49

singer's cow roaring. Exactly

50:51

of the lion. We should probably

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51:07

Movie. Okay.

51:09

Go ahead. Wilson is

51:11

one of the, like, major

51:13

figures ofstop motion. Yes. But

51:16

who had a hard time

51:18

getting these huge

51:20

never had the platform that

51:22

I think It's expensive. Yes. It's

51:25

He's gotta give someone to give you a lot of money and give

51:27

me the might not be a hit. He literally works

51:29

in clay. He was a clay -- Yes. --

51:31

animator. For so long, claymation

51:34

was a term used interchangeably with

51:37

stop motion. Because most claymation

51:39

we saw was most stop motion we saw

51:41

rather, was Artman and

51:43

Woven. Yes. What about, like,

51:44

the most prominent studios done working in

51:46

clay? And or yes. And I'm

51:48

You're your your kid's cartoons. Like, his son-in-law

51:50

didn't know exactly. Yes. Well, son-in-law is more

51:52

of the taxidermied animal, but guess he does a lot

51:54

of claims. Yeah. That's as well. Yeah. But but they

51:56

were like, yeah, plasticine got this.

51:58

And Vinton is this very interesting balance

52:01

of he had a lot of success in things

52:03

like commercials for higher

52:04

jobs. Right. He's a little bit like Richard Williams

52:07

actually. He did the California reasons.

52:09

Chew. Yes. Much like annoyed

52:11

apparently. They're reading some of his accomplishments. Much

52:13

like Richard Williams doing the annoyed.

52:16

Red, yellow, blue, green,

52:18

and orange, M and M's, all

52:20

him. I think the thing that people would

52:23

maybe most pop culture recognized him for

52:25

is the stop motion stuff in Moonwalker.

52:27

Moonwalker? I mean Michael Jackson picking up. The style

52:30

is very distinctive. The look of characters

52:32

is very distinctive. If you Google Woven,

52:34

you'll see a bunch things you recognize. Yeah.

52:36

But but hi, James. Yeah.

52:38

The the the Richard Williams comparison,

52:40

I think app because of these two guys were considered

52:42

like -- Absolutely. -- top of their fields

52:45

were sort of low level locals, had

52:47

their own studios. Everyone was envious

52:49

of their craft. There were always in demand

52:51

for four higher gigs, especially commercial

52:53

gigs and shit, or to come in and pinch hit

52:55

on some studio project their

52:58

own personal projects, their magnum

53:00

opuses were, like, vaguely

53:02

disastrous. Sure. Yeah. Right? When they were,

53:05

like, unfettered or

53:07

The Mark Twain movie does get credited as the first

53:09

feature link stop motion film. Is that correct? The

53:11

Adventures of Mark Twain, nineteen eighty five

53:13

stop motion animation film. I believe

53:15

it holds that title. Sure. It

53:19

it is a bananas film. Some people might

53:21

remember it as, like, it was I feel like

53:23

especially in the nineties a weird deep

53:26

cable concert rotation movie.

53:28

Yeah. It's on Amazon

53:30

Prime right now. I watched it the other night. It's

53:33

bizarre. It's like two present

53:35

day kids in like a

53:37

a space submarine with

53:40

Mark Twain. Yes.

53:42

Mhmm. Yes. They're chasing a cop. Flying around

53:45

the galaxy.

53:45

Yeah. Cool. Alright. But so

53:47

not a hit. Right. No. No fit.

53:49

Yes. Big flow. That

53:52

can transition into the like of

53:54

it all. Well, because what happened was

53:58

not a little pretty tragic in terms

54:00

of his whole -- Yes. -- trajectory.

54:03

Well, so right. Because, like, when he's

54:05

brought onboard, it's Vinton. And

54:08

Phil

54:08

Knight, of course, NIKE founder -- Yeah. --

54:10

invested in this company. And

54:12

Travis Knight, obviously, former rapper, of course.

54:15

Then decides he likes animation.

54:17

Yes. What what what rapper was he?

54:20

Did he ever rap? Do we know? He did look it

54:22

up. This is the son of the son of

54:24

the founder of Nike. Founder of Nike?

54:26

Sure. Please start talking a little bit about this

54:28

the other day. Has a record deal and

54:31

then finds his true passion. Well, it's worse

54:33

than a stop motion. It's terrible. Chili

54:35

tea. Chili tea. It's real

54:37

bad. It's

54:39

it's really, really bad.

54:42

You know, look, if your dad founded Nike,

54:45

you could pursue your projects. And if you were

54:47

twenty years old, they might be stupid

54:49

projects.

54:49

And I think. I'll say this. When

54:51

people hear that the director of Cubo in

54:53

the two strings had a rap career, they're

54:55

like, that seems improbable. If you

54:57

watch his music videos, it absolutely feels

55:00

like who you would imagine directed Cubo

55:02

in the two

55:02

strings. Interesting. Doing right. He has music

55:05

video. Right. Right. Right. It's

55:07

not like that's bizarre that that guy has the

55:09

personality of a rapper. It's like, no, it's bizarre

55:11

that a rapper had the personality of a stop

55:13

motion animator. Now maybe you guys can explain

55:15

this to me. I'll finish this. In two thousand two,

55:17

Knight takes over Vincent Studios and it's renamed

55:20

Leica in two thousand five. So what happens

55:22

to mister Vincent? Is

55:25

is he put in jail for selling,

55:28

you know, the saltwater Taffy and it made

55:30

someone sick? He just looks like a saltwater Taffy

55:32

sales.

55:33

He's got a big pushy muscle. I think there's basically

55:35

just a a kind of complete financial

55:37

collapse that is largely tied to the

55:39

rise of CGI. I don't know how much more

55:42

we can dig into this. But but

55:44

the company was just sort of shrinking

55:47

and shrinking and shrinking with very high overhead.

55:49

And, you know, we talked about the James

55:51

The Giant Peach so so much that movie was.

55:54

I've spent the time to build up crew to build up a

55:56

studio to have soundstages. I wanna keep them

55:58

working. Right. It's right. We need another project.

56:00

It's the thing with this animated studio. And

56:02

he had a big studio. He had

56:05

a big company and the work was

56:07

drying up and it got worse and worse by the

56:09

year. The PJ's thing is kind of like it's like

56:11

that was such a big project. That was supposed

56:13

to be the thing that we give her a few minutes. Producing

56:16

it, and it, like, doesn't make it a seeding razor

56:18

run how It's a two seasons. Oh,

56:20

why am I oh, no. The oh, sorry. Gary and

56:22

Mike is the one that did on me. Which was a UPS

56:24

show. Right. Which I always liked by them. Never

56:27

seen that. Never heard

56:29

of it. Let me let me But this was the thing. They

56:31

had a couple big failed projects like

56:33

that, and they're not getting commercial

56:35

work anymore. You know? I can see

56:37

why this didn't exactly like

56:40

the world's fire. What about

56:42

celebrity death match? Who did that? There's

56:44

another clean baseline thing. With the name of the animation

56:46

studio, I'm sorry. I don't remember. The guy name

56:48

is Eric Fogan. What and, you

56:50

know, this Eric Fogan.

56:53

I wanna posit preface this

56:55

by saying, I don't know the exact details. So I'm

56:57

hearing this completely secondhand.

57:00

Sure. What

57:02

I have heard happened with the

57:04

Will Vittner of it all was

57:06

that the studio was struggling. Mhmm.

57:09

And Phil Knight said that

57:11

he would make an investment -- Yes. --

57:13

his son is at that point -- Yes. -- well, his son's

57:15

like that. But I love this heart of right. Yeah.

57:17

Part of the investment was my

57:20

son has to -- Yes. -- have a major role

57:22

here.

57:22

Right. Right. His son was just an animator.

57:24

I believe, at that point. I

57:26

I don't think he's hiring me.

57:28

Right. He was an intern. He

57:30

would know. Part of the investment literally was

57:32

hiring him as an intern.

57:34

Right. That's gotcha. And so

57:35

okay. And

57:35

then in two thousand three, when film night takes over

57:37

the company, Travis is suddenly on

57:39

the board of directors. Well,

57:40

so that flipped happened pretty

57:42

quickly from what I've It I

57:44

mean, from the timeline I can guess here is

57:46

we're talking, like, five years maximum.

57:48

Yeah. It was basically when you tried to do some

57:50

business, but and my son work here

57:52

to actually, I'm

57:56

I'm in charge. And my son is gonna

57:58

be the one that's incredibly Yes. Yes. But

58:00

here's what I think is interested. I think

58:02

his son ends up being

58:05

pretty good at This is the whole You know what I

58:06

mean? Like, the whole distressing thing of, like,

58:09

it all sounds so evil. Yes.

58:11

And yet every part of this should

58:13

have been Right. And like And I've heard stories about

58:15

Leica, like, almost you hear stories about any

58:17

animation studio. Yes. Pixar, Disney,

58:20

you

58:20

know, like, where you're like, oh my god. Like, people

58:22

who work to the bone, it's so intense. Right? You

58:24

know, all that stuff. But at the same time, it's like, they

58:26

are pretty much the only people making these kinds of

58:28

movies is nice to have them. Yeah.

58:30

And Travis Knight has directed

58:32

-- Chili t. Chili Chili t. Chili t.

58:35

Chili t. Chili t. He has directed two films.

58:37

One, a stop motion film and

58:39

won a film starring Bumblebee of the Transformers.

58:42

Both of which thought were pretty good. Yeah. Not

58:44

like Masterpieces. Yeah.

58:46

Koopa was pretty good. Close to

58:48

masterpiece. It almost yeah. Kudo has

58:50

its problems, but is a so,

58:52

like, I don't know what to do about Almost like

58:54

beyond, like, regular Hollywood Napa

58:56

where it's like, oh, it turns out this person's actors

58:59

parents are

58:59

actors. Like, oh, dude. No. This is yeah.

59:02

It's the the the guy's dad,

59:04

like, bought him a studio. I mean,

59:06

to say, oh, with to his credit, you're like,

59:08

his dad buys him a studio and then

59:10

he doesn't direct a movie until they're

59:13

four in. The it it was the fourth

59:15

one. Right? Yeah. You know, it's not ginormous and

59:17

then -- Moxie. -- other boys were actually

59:19

but yeah. It's it's a very bizarre

59:21

story. He does that. He does Bumblebee. He's

59:24

now directing the next Leica release.

59:26

Is he? Yes. Okay. And then he also

59:28

just signed up to do six million dollar man.

59:31

Great. With Mark Walberg.

59:33

A six million dollar man. Apparently,

59:36

can shake up a coffee. But I think

59:38

that's also one of the one

59:40

of the bummer's Nice

59:42

signature. David's point is

59:44

cup of coffee. It's good. I like it. Yeah.

59:47

That's one of the bumbers I will say though

59:49

is that, like when

59:51

I because III was an animator in college. Right? Yeah. And

59:53

there was only so many places that you wanted to

59:56

end up -- Yeah. -- companies. Yeah. companies.

59:59

Yeah. But it was like, you get hired at Pixar,

1:00:01

maybe go Disney, and then it was like, some people

1:00:04

are like, oh, what about Leica? It's

1:00:06

a bummer that sort of like one of

1:00:08

the only paths to having sustainable

1:00:11

studio for stop motion animation

1:00:13

and to be in charge

1:00:14

of it is. It's like a charitable -- Yeah.

1:00:16

-- a thing. Billionaire has to pay

1:00:18

for a Well, this is what's so odd about

1:00:20

the Vinton like a situation. Right?

1:00:22

Is IIII

1:00:24

had it mixed up in my mind

1:00:26

that he was already a low level

1:00:29

animator rather than the internship

1:00:31

being part of the conditions of

1:00:33

Travis Knight, investing the money --

1:00:35

No. It was Phil Knight. -- no. Yeah. No. I thought

1:00:37

he was already there for sure. But it but it was

1:00:39

that he was already into stop motion. But

1:00:42

I believe as the story goes, it was

1:00:44

basically that, like, Travis

1:00:46

went to his dad on hands and knees

1:00:48

and was like, stop motion is going to

1:00:50

die as an art form. Right. If this

1:00:52

company is not saved, someone needs

1:00:54

to do

1:00:54

it. There is no American

1:00:58

government investment into the arts?

1:01:00

To a fair point. You know very little. Yes.

1:01:03

Where so many when you watch, like,

1:01:06

you look at the best animated short

1:01:08

film nominees each year and

1:01:10

it's like you might get one short film that's

1:01:12

a Pixar or Disney because they've started

1:01:15

you know, they've stayed investing in those. Right.

1:01:17

And otherwise, you're mostly seeing foreign films

1:01:19

that come out of countries that have like fucking arts

1:01:21

grants and and lotteries and funds for

1:01:23

this sort of shit. For people to work in

1:01:25

this medium that is not commercially viable.

1:01:29

But it is this thing where it's like, dad, you have

1:01:31

so much fucking money can you find

1:01:33

the kindness in your heart to save an art

1:01:35

form? And then it becomes this hostile

1:01:38

takeover that makes a little

1:01:40

bit of sense when you're like, not

1:01:42

to be cynical and crass about it, but you're like,

1:01:45

Vinton's old at this point, he dies

1:01:47

in twenty eighteen. He had

1:01:49

not been able to turn a profit in the company

1:01:51

for about a decade at that point. There

1:01:54

is the argument that there needs to be fresh blood.

1:01:56

When you go, the guy who bought it

1:01:58

just installed his son at the top of the

1:02:00

food chain within like

1:02:02

eighteen months of him starting there as an

1:02:04

intern. That seems like red alert

1:02:07

red alert, but it works. Then

1:02:10

he finally takes over his

1:02:12

director on the fourth movie it's really

1:02:14

good. Then he takes a jump to doing

1:02:16

American live action studio based on the

1:02:18

thing where you're like, what? Right? Is that similar? Was

1:02:21

he just using the as a leapfrog kind

1:02:23

of thing to get a bigger career. To do a

1:02:25

transformers spin off. Right. And it was, like, not

1:02:27

a bad And there was that moment where it's, like It's not

1:02:29

great. They ended the distribution deal

1:02:31

with Focus, Leica signs a new deal

1:02:33

with Anna Perna, they released missing

1:02:35

link, missing link, bumps really hard.

1:02:37

Yeah. There's no new Leica movie announced on the

1:02:40

horizon. That's right after Bumblebee's come out

1:02:42

and everyone's like, Is Travis Knight

1:02:44

bored with Leica? Is Leica gonna be left?

1:02:46

In the dust. And instead, Travis Knight

1:02:48

goes back, invest new money in it, informs

1:02:51

new distribution deals, starts

1:02:54

doing a new film at Leica, continues

1:02:56

to constantly, like, almost directed fucking

1:02:58

uncharted -- Yeah. -- is now attached

1:03:00

to six million dollar man. Like, we'll jump in between

1:03:03

developing live action films and

1:03:05

directing movies Coraline and

1:03:07

supporting other films, there

1:03:10

it it does seem to basically

1:03:13

work.

1:03:14

I know. But it's really

1:03:15

nice with the Wikipedia page, you just want

1:03:17

Everything about this guy you wanna Yeah.

1:03:19

I think I don't

1:03:20

wanna strangle Trevor's night to be

1:03:22

why capitalism is great.

1:03:24

I

1:03:24

do think that happens to that. That's great. No

1:03:26

no complaints there. The only bummer that Travis

1:03:29

Knight's hobby wasn't, like, mental health advocacy.

1:03:31

And instead it was stop motion that's billionaire

1:03:34

Whatever. Look, makes people but it's

1:03:36

also one of these things where it's, like, I'm

1:03:38

just laughing as at myself. III agree where

1:03:41

I'm like, oh, thank god someone just

1:03:43

trying to keep stop motion alive, but you're also like,

1:03:45

god. If like, the only way to get anything

1:03:47

done is, like, pull at the, like, tail cut

1:03:49

of a

1:03:49

billion. There would be, like,

1:03:51

alright, sir. Alright. Let's get off Travis.

1:03:53

No. I will not even Just need to -- Yeah. --

1:03:55

clarify? It's not like a chili

1:03:57

pepper. No. It's like chili pepper. Yeah.

1:03:59

Okay. chili white.

1:04:02

Letter. You know, it looks smoky.

1:04:05

T shirt. Yeah. Snow was hot back

1:04:07

then. Yes. You know, if you're a white wrap

1:04:08

or snow was

1:04:09

So it was so hot. You know, like,

1:04:11

it's like it's like, I feel like for sure, you vanilla

1:04:14

ice in the morning. Interesting. Even

1:04:16

with the weather phenomenon. I'm like, No.

1:04:19

It's like I think if you're a white rapper, you might wanna

1:04:21

lean into, like, I'm cold.

1:04:23

I see Snowy. Right? You wanna just

1:04:25

go that direction maybe? Yeah. I

1:04:28

guess there's some correlation there. Coraline.

1:04:30

Core line. Core line. And we're back.

1:04:32

The first thing Selic does with this company,

1:04:34

you know, whatever, you know,

1:04:36

young girl slash is Moon Girl, which --

1:04:38

Right. -- I have seen I a

1:04:40

little short film. It's not very good. It's C.

1:04:42

G. Right. So this is another thing where

1:04:45

I'm like, The founder

1:04:47

of Nike bought Well Vinton Studios,

1:04:50

installed his son, lured

1:04:53

Selic over, and now the first thing they're

1:04:55

releasing is a CGI short

1:04:57

film. And I was like -- Right. -- everything's done. This

1:04:59

this is like Why are they working in CGI? How

1:05:03

is Celix sunk to this low? How

1:05:05

embarrassing for everyone involved? When

1:05:07

they Coraline is happening as a

1:05:09

feature instop motion, I'm

1:05:12

like, you're skeptical just because there's

1:05:14

no track record here. Like, you know, why would

1:05:16

this Everything about the CGI films, shitty. It's

1:05:18

one of these things where you're like, this is around the same

1:05:20

time that flushed away comes out -- Yeah. --

1:05:23

with the CGI

1:05:24

fake stop motion -- Yeah. -- like CGI

1:05:26

and stop motion. Yes. I also remember

1:05:28

there was because again, I was in

1:05:30

college and this was all happening. And I was an animator

1:05:33

who was like, oh, maybe my dream is

1:05:35

to work at like remember their whole thing

1:05:37

with the three d was like they're trying to build

1:05:39

a new system -- Yes. that could

1:05:41

basically use

1:05:44

the principles of stop motion as

1:05:46

the method for animating computer

1:05:50

generated imagery. Which it felt like

1:05:52

a sort of backwards. But that was their big move.

1:05:54

And I sort of

1:05:56

That's also the era where people were like, we're

1:05:58

we're we're we're minutes away from computers

1:06:00

being able to do thing. Yeah. Exactly. But

1:06:02

they really pioneered the

1:06:04

use of three d printing in stop motion

1:06:06

-- Yeah. -- which involved doing a lot of pre animation

1:06:09

--

1:06:09

Yeah. -- on computers and then just physicalizing

1:06:11

it later. So that was all

1:06:13

context of the fact that then that leads us to

1:06:16

Coraline. I mean, it's

1:06:18

the first like a release. Yes. Yes.

1:06:20

Which has a lot of attention now on it

1:06:22

in the animation world in particular because it's like

1:06:24

Alright. Well, let's see. I

1:06:26

guess, an embarrassing hobby film. But

1:06:29

it's also I guess, the last

1:06:31

stop motion animated feature is probably Wallace

1:06:33

and Cromwell. Right? Was there anything of

1:06:35

note in between, but promise Amato

1:06:38

That's over five. I was gonna say close. Right?

1:06:40

It's the same year. Boston Underperforms

1:06:43

at the box office here in the States. Is

1:06:45

seriously big Who's ever seen? Did very, very

1:06:47

well in Europe. Yeah. Chicken Run is still the

1:06:49

only stop motion film to pass a hundred

1:06:51

million dollars domestic. So there was

1:06:53

kind of this feeling of, like, Artman had

1:06:55

the potential to be the next Pixar. It

1:06:57

took them way too long to do a follow-up

1:07:00

film. Wall Square wins the Oscar

1:07:02

-- Just below. -- who's worldwide. Underperforms at

1:07:04

the box office, DreamWorks drops their deal.

1:07:06

Another thing that makes it feel like Amato kind

1:07:08

of dying. Tim Hortons was a production good

1:07:10

well. Right? It's right to do well. Gone on Oscar

1:07:13

nomination. Yeah. Got good reviews. But

1:07:15

it sort feels like, maybe stop motion only

1:07:17

gets made at a studio level if Tim

1:07:19

Burton works into his contract.

1:07:21

Well, and the character things we talked about on the Corporal

1:07:23

Wright episode, I believe. Was

1:07:25

that people didn't realize it was stop

1:07:27

motion --

1:07:28

Yes. -- because they did so much cleanup and they just took

1:07:30

the job. Yeah. It looks too clean. We talked about this. We

1:07:32

wanted I I don't remember if we talked about

1:07:34

this, but it's like the contracts

1:07:37

for Charlie and the Chocolate Factory

1:07:39

and Corbs Bride are done together at Warner

1:07:41

Brothers. It's it's basically one for me, one

1:07:43

for you. And the same thing happens again

1:07:45

with Alison Wonderlane and Frank and Weenie.

1:07:48

It's like when Tim Burton wants to, they'll let him

1:07:50

make a stop motion movie. As payment

1:07:52

for making a bigger studio live action

1:07:54

film.

1:07:55

So here's a question that I've always had

1:07:58

about Henry Selick and Timber. Mhmm.

1:08:02

Their styles that they become known for

1:08:05

are so close to each other --

1:08:08

Mhmm. -- that I've always curious

1:08:10

in a chicken and egg sense. If

1:08:14

that's just that's why they came

1:08:16

together because I think they met in college. Yeah.

1:08:18

Yes. If that's why they found each other, because

1:08:20

they're like, oh, we like to make this sort of a

1:08:23

a job, you know. But it's so empty

1:08:25

because when you think of I mean,

1:08:27

obviously, the tim Burton of it all

1:08:29

with not before Christmas -- Yeah.

1:08:31

-- people attribute that

1:08:33

style to him. But

1:08:36

if you see Tim Burton's own illustrations,

1:08:38

it is that style

1:08:40

of these. He's making puppet versions

1:08:42

of Tim Burton's illustration. Right.

1:08:44

Right. And this interesting thing we've talked about

1:08:46

that every one of Selix films

1:08:48

has a different primary designer.

1:08:50

Yes. He will pick someone with

1:08:52

a very distinct illustration style

1:08:55

and model the entire film in their

1:08:57

vision. We have not seen a Selic

1:08:59

movie that is like his personal

1:09:02

art style, quote unquote. Mhmm. Because the first

1:09:04

one he's doing Burton, then he's doing Lane Smith.

1:09:07

The name of the illustrator on this

1:09:08

film, I forget it's a Japanese illustrator. Yes.

1:09:11

I have it somewhere. But I Todd a hero,

1:09:13

you say you key. Right. And then then

1:09:15

Wendell and Wilde, it's the the New Yorker

1:09:17

guy. Sure.

1:09:19

Yeah. I'm forgetting his name. We'll try with that next episode.

1:09:21

No. Well, William Sean. No. He's a modern favorite

1:09:24

guy who does, like, the little portraits for

1:09:26

profiles and things like that. Sure. Right. And

1:09:28

a lot of the movie review images --

1:09:29

Right. -- whatever.

1:09:30

But they all tend towards this extremely

1:09:33

disproportionate big head, thick thin, big

1:09:35

head, which is That's also

1:09:38

easy for stop motion. Right? Like Is

1:09:40

it

1:09:40

well, because of a big head, you can, like, change

1:09:42

what I'm saying. These portions are not

1:09:45

easy because it's -- No. -- that that

1:09:47

characters cannot support themselves. Right.

1:09:49

Right. Right. Natural because the two

1:09:51

of them -- Yes. -- have made that the sort

1:09:53

of status quote, if you look at Will Vinnie, look

1:09:55

at Artemont, they're very stubby. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:09:57

Right. Usually usually of these big based characters

1:10:00

that sort of waddle. Same

1:10:01

with gumby. Like, you just kinda have these characters who

1:10:03

were lumpy. Don't body shame gumpy.

1:10:05

I mean, it's how a guy was born. I mean, I'm like,

1:10:07

you look healthy. Hey, gummy's very

1:10:09

healthy. It's muscle mass. That's

1:10:13

yeah. That's interesting. Sure. So

1:10:15

it's, like, annoying to deal with these things. Well,

1:10:17

it's just it's you know, they're so

1:10:19

It's not a natural They can that

1:10:22

legs will snap you know what I mean it's like. But, like,

1:10:24

I guess it's like you can have such sort of

1:10:26

expressive movement. Yes, man. Well, that's what makes

1:10:28

the I think that's part of what

1:10:30

makes them stick in the zeitgeist.

1:10:32

Right. They're so expressive because they are

1:10:34

so disproportionate because their armature is

1:10:36

basically, like, barely covered

1:10:38

in -- Right. Faster scene or whatever. Yeah. I mean,

1:10:40

it's a thing I feel so strongly watching

1:10:42

this movie where anytime a new character

1:10:45

is introduced, you're

1:10:45

like, fuck. I can't wait to see how this person

1:10:47

moves. Right. Right. Especially in this movie

1:10:50

with

1:10:50

the -- Yes. -- with the neighbors and all. Yeah. Okay. little

1:10:52

bit more. Moon Girl, he makes. Right? The whole

1:10:54

thing is that that you know, night moves

1:10:56

fucking vintage to Oregon. Yes.

1:10:58

This is where like Yeah. This is where film night, you know,

1:11:01

film night is mister Oregon. Yeah. They

1:11:04

ask him to do car you know, he has Coraline.

1:11:06

They're like, bring Carl. We'll start work

1:11:08

on Coraline, and then they're gonna back out and I'll

1:11:10

say, Cela gives Travis Knight Credit

1:11:12

calls him one of the best animators in the world --

1:11:15

Uh-huh. -- says that he worked on Moon Girl

1:11:17

and basically went to Phil Knight

1:11:19

and was, like, we cannot block this project.

1:11:21

This must Like, so apparently, you know, as

1:11:23

Selic says, Coraline was in

1:11:25

trouble for being,

1:11:26

quote, unquote, too dark, you know, a bit

1:11:28

like a and Travis Knight was the one who got it over

1:11:30

the line. So that's cool.

1:11:32

Travisknight has to know if we're building an

1:11:34

animation memories aside. Yeah. This is

1:11:36

the number one guy we want in

1:11:38

our stable. And it very much feels

1:11:40

like much the formation of Leica is, if we

1:11:42

can get seleic here,

1:11:44

he can be our lacer. We can build

1:11:46

this whole place around him. Celic

1:11:49

told the LA Times in two thousand five that

1:11:51

his plan with was to do the

1:11:54

real world as c and the magic

1:11:56

world is stop motion. They were considering using

1:11:59

CG -- Yeah. -- for the animation of this film.

1:12:01

Glad they didn't. Yes. I

1:12:03

mean, I get the idea of the two -- Yeah. -- world, you

1:12:05

know, that's -- Yeah. -- but still, Bill

1:12:07

Mechanic thought Scott Motion was passing.

1:12:10

This fucking thing in animation

1:12:12

-- I know. -- where they're, like, boring, beautiful

1:12:14

stop motion, or beautiful hand drawn. Bassé,

1:12:17

why can't it be showy? You know? But

1:12:21

they didn't really like

1:12:24

how the CG looked --

1:12:25

Mhmm. -- in whatever test they Their noodle looks

1:12:28

shitty. Yeah. It does. My friend

1:12:31

had a term recently. I was talking

1:12:33

to him. He was talking

1:12:35

about, I won't name him for the reasons.

1:12:38

I'll be clear as I tell this story. He was talking

1:12:40

about he and his wife are in

1:12:42

the stage where they're debating whether or

1:12:44

not they wanna have a child. And

1:12:46

he was confessing to me over several

1:12:48

rounds of drinks. One

1:12:51

of the things that gives him trepidation about having

1:12:53

a child is having to watch

1:12:55

children's bullshit. With the kid, he's just

1:12:57

like that. That shit my friends who

1:12:59

have kids, my brothers, their kids have

1:13:02

to watch. It's so fucking dispirating. And

1:13:04

he said every character just looks like a shampoo

1:13:06

bottle now. And I I it's

1:13:08

such a good descriptor of this sort of

1:13:10

blandness of so much CGI characters

1:13:13

roundedness, the boring color.

1:13:15

Looks like a shampoo bottle. And like Moon

1:13:17

Girl is one of those things where you're like, this looks like shampoo

1:13:20

bottle. But of course, what's the

1:13:22

thing they settle on? It's like, okay, if we're not gonna

1:13:24

use c g, what can we use? 3D3D3

1:13:28

dimensional photography. This They've

1:13:30

done it on nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. So that's

1:13:33

that's the I think we didn't really talk

1:13:35

about that much in that episode that we mentioned.

1:13:37

They they do the three d release that starts making,

1:13:39

like, ten million dollars each year.

1:13:41

This is the beginning of Disney starting to invest

1:13:44

in three d. Something like Chicken Little

1:13:46

will come out and they'll put it on like forty

1:13:48

three d screens. But it's starting to

1:13:50

grow. Everyone knows that Avatar is in the

1:13:52

pipeline and they're working towards that which

1:13:55

everyone assumes is gonna be the total threshold

1:13:57

break through a moment. But this film comes

1:13:59

out nine months before

1:14:02

Avatar. It sure does. It's it's a real

1:14:04

important film in I am

1:14:06

certainly is the first three d movie I

1:14:08

saw that was not, like, a movie about asteroids

1:14:10

I saw at the Natural History Museum or whatever with, like,

1:14:12

red, red green. Right. I think it's the first

1:14:14

movie, and I wore those real three d.

1:14:17

Just get real d. Polarized classes.

1:14:19

Three d movies are red and blue.

1:14:22

Polarized or And I

1:14:23

didn't like, didn't see

1:14:25

Bayouville. What's it? I don't know. Fucking sick.

1:14:27

What's it called Bayouville? Anigville. Aneglifts.

1:14:29

Oh, yeah.

1:14:30

The red and blue is aneglifts. Yeah. But I didn't

1:14:32

see Baylifts because Baylifts is before this. Right? Yeah.

1:14:36

But all these things no. No. No. No. It is. It's like semi

1:14:39

limited releases. Yeah. I mean,

1:14:41

I would I such a theme for three d that I

1:14:43

would go anytime. Well,

1:14:45

meet the

1:14:45

Robinsons, I think that eliminated I remember when

1:14:47

I I saw his video. It's like, oh, how funny?

1:14:49

Whoa. Can these little

1:14:50

glasses? If this was a big

1:14:52

deal, this was like this is really kind of

1:14:54

announcing this as a medium. Yeah. And we can take

1:14:56

a little walk to the history of three d. And

1:14:58

that we don't have to go deep little We'll done

1:15:00

a little baby. Yeah. Yeah. We should stay seated

1:15:02

then. We'll stay seated. Okay. We're not gonna yeah. Yeah.

1:15:04

This is actually Well, I'm gonna

1:15:06

walk around the road. So obviously, like,

1:15:09

it was, like, eighties through the early two

1:15:11

thousands. Mhmm. It was all of what you're talking

1:15:13

about, David. Right? It's, like, A musical

1:15:15

park. Yeah. You go to the Napster Museum. We go to

1:15:17

Disney

1:15:17

World. Shanghai had set -- Yeah. -- NYMEX three in the documentaries.

1:15:20

Five months long. Everest. They had

1:15:22

non red blue

1:15:25

Yeah. No. It's yours. I saw some

1:15:27

IMAX thing about a postal delivery

1:15:30

man

1:15:30

in Alaska. Head Yeah. You would be able

1:15:32

to under an hour goals. Right? Yes. So there's

1:15:34

a we can talk about that a little bit later. We're talking about

1:15:36

three d. But this

1:15:38

after around two thousand three, two thousand four is

1:15:40

when Studios and

1:15:43

theaters start going maybe three d's the next big

1:15:45

thing. And the issue

1:15:47

was that people were

1:15:49

not shooting three d films. They were

1:15:51

taking films and converting them to three d.

1:15:53

Right. And back then the technology was So

1:15:56

now when they move convert movies to three d, they

1:15:58

will create

1:16:00

actual sort of like three d elements

1:16:02

that things are sort of like fake projected

1:16:04

onto, so that it has three-dimensional depth

1:16:07

to it. Where's basically CGI

1:16:10

animate a movie with the same shapes as

1:16:12

the live action footage and then wrap the live

1:16:14

action footage around those shapes? Yeah. Theoretically.

1:16:16

Right. What they were doing is simplified, but yeah. In

1:16:18

the early mid two thousands is it was, like,

1:16:20

it was evident for this paper cutout. Right.

1:16:22

It would just be, like, Great. This

1:16:25

two d plane is farther ahead than

1:16:27

that two d plane. It looks like a paperboard. You can

1:16:29

just everything is flat, but you can create

1:16:31

mean, you

1:16:33

know, it looks funny. It's I have seen

1:16:34

double here for crusties. Yeah. Exactly.

1:16:37

Yeah. So it it it wasn't

1:16:39

very good. There was a cut there's a few things

1:16:41

that were shot natively three d. But I

1:16:43

think Coraline was, for

1:16:46

a lot of people, the first film -- Yeah. -- and

1:16:48

I I we can get into it in a little

1:16:50

bit about the techno what they did,

1:16:52

technologically, that was so impressive. But it was one

1:16:54

of the first films that was shot natively three

1:16:56

d and they did it so well. With actual

1:16:58

cameras, because it stopped motion. Right.

1:17:01

So many of the three d digital three

1:17:03

d movies that were coming out in these experimental

1:17:05

years were CGI films because

1:17:07

they were easy to post convert because you're just modifying

1:17:10

the files that already exist in the computer. And

1:17:12

then there'd be a thing where, like, Superman

1:17:15

Returns when a plate in IMAX, there were,

1:17:17

like, two sequences that were three d -- Yeah. --

1:17:19

where they'd flash the symbol. They they test the

1:17:21

waters a little bit. Right. But this is like

1:17:23

in terms of a film that was actually

1:17:25

shot with cameras, intentionally

1:17:28

designed for three d, this was

1:17:30

a humongous app -- Yeah. -- modern era. Because

1:17:32

it also had to coincide with the

1:17:34

proliferation of digital cinema. Right?

1:17:37

So three d if

1:17:39

you're shooting something three d, for those

1:17:41

of you who are are not in the know, you

1:17:43

basically have to have one camera for

1:17:45

each eye because if you

1:17:48

right now if you like hold your hand in front

1:17:50

of your face you know,

1:17:53

as if you're doing a a eye poke

1:17:55

blocker and you go

1:17:57

back and forth between your left eye and right eye. Right? Your

1:17:59

eyes are seeing different views of things. And

1:18:01

so when you're shooting three d, the whole thing that makes it three d's

1:18:03

that you're having these two views that your brain is

1:18:05

processing into one image. You have to have

1:18:07

two cameras that are next to

1:18:09

each other. And theoretically, they have

1:18:12

to be next to each other at the exact distance that

1:18:14

the human eyes are typically

1:18:15

apart. That's what creates depth. Now,

1:18:18

with film cameras,

1:18:20

That's

1:18:20

really hard because you've got these big bulky cameras

1:18:23

that require film and need to be

1:18:25

because they need to be super precise and they need

1:18:27

to be completely in sync. Because

1:18:29

you can't, you know, you can't have

1:18:31

them off temporally even a little bit because that's

1:18:34

gonna create this weird distance. Twice as loud.

1:18:36

It's harder to do camera movements, all

1:18:38

these things become incredibly complicated.

1:18:40

Yeah. And so digital cinema

1:18:42

means that now you're dealing with a a digital

1:18:45

processors, which means cameras

1:18:47

start getting a little bit smaller, a little bit easier

1:18:49

to deal with, and you can sync stuff up digitally. So

1:18:51

you're not trying to have things be mechanically synced,

1:18:54

you can digitally sync them, which is a lot easier and

1:18:56

better for three d. But the rigs are

1:18:58

still ginormous. Mhmm. And they

1:19:00

don't exist. There is not enough flow

1:19:03

of money or time for it to be

1:19:05

something where people are

1:19:08

creating really easy solutions for this stuff.

1:19:10

So the only films that can really do this

1:19:12

like shoot natively in three d

1:19:14

are these the avatars of the world

1:19:17

that are investing all this money into new

1:19:19

huge budget technology. And when

1:19:21

James Cameron literally went to Fox and went, I don't

1:19:24

know if this movie is doable. Will you give me two

1:19:26

years and five million dollars to do some R and

1:19:28

D and maybe I'll have a film. I don't know.

1:19:30

Exactly. And so Coraline

1:19:32

just has to be right place, right time Yep.

1:19:35

-- to make good use

1:19:37

of some of this technology in a really interesting

1:19:39

way. A lot of the stuff that Cameron

1:19:41

sort of field tested on the documentaries that

1:19:44

he did in this period a

1:19:47

thing about the use

1:19:49

of three d in this movie. Mhmm. As

1:19:53

child I used to

1:19:55

always think that Wizard

1:19:58

of Oz had to be the first use of

1:20:00

color and

1:20:00

film. Because it feels so

1:20:03

poetic about it. And then the thing comes

1:20:05

into color, you're like, oh my god. No one had ever

1:20:07

seen this on a screen before. Want to believe

1:20:09

that was the introduction. Color because it feels

1:20:11

like, well, this is the moment where a world opens

1:20:14

up even though color had existed for a decade

1:20:16

plus at that point in firms. Right? But also there's,

1:20:18

like, those weird, like It's weird. It's insane.

1:20:20

Oh, yes. Yeah. I

1:20:24

I similarly feel JJ keeps

1:20:26

on in all the dossier's you

1:20:28

know In in his very j j way of

1:20:31

his very quiet sort of editorializing that

1:20:33

only we read -- Right. Talking

1:20:35

about how much Wizard of Oz comes

1:20:38

up with Selic -- Yeah. -- by the Bisonian

1:20:40

mission or other people's the whole thing we're

1:20:42

talking about of imagining another world, another

1:20:44

place, another dimension, you know, these sort

1:20:46

of alternate realities, what have you.

1:20:50

Saying to CELIC, you get to use

1:20:52

three d now. You now have a tool

1:20:54

that is kind of equivalent to being able to open

1:20:57

the door into the world of color. In Wizard

1:20:59

of Oz. It's one of the reasons

1:21:01

that I argue this is the best application of

1:21:03

three d because it's so tied to

1:21:05

the narrative, obviously. And

1:21:08

Avatar also has this thing obviously

1:21:10

where it's a guy entering a different world.

1:21:12

Yeah. Right. But and

1:21:15

Avatar is so experiential and,

1:21:17

like, incredibly well

1:21:19

executed. But so

1:21:21

much of the technique that Selic uses

1:21:24

here to make the three d

1:21:27

thematic, to truly

1:21:29

use depth as a very

1:21:31

deliberate pointed storytelling tool

1:21:35

rather than just like immersion

1:21:39

-- Yeah. -- or have stuff jump out at

1:21:41

you. It's kind

1:21:43

of insane that he nailed

1:21:45

it this hard when so much of what

1:21:47

he was doing was basically uncharted territory.

1:21:49

And figuring it out as they went along. Yeah.

1:21:52

And so that sort of leads to

1:21:54

my feeling, which is I think this is

1:21:57

in my experience for watching movies, the

1:21:59

best, most fulfilling

1:22:02

as an audience member, use of stereoscopic

1:22:06

film that I have seen.

1:22:08

Ben, like, I know you watch this for the

1:22:10

first time. Right.

1:22:12

You're not seeing in three d. You did so you didn't see

1:22:14

in three d. No. I we should talk

1:22:16

at some point about how this was also tied

1:22:18

in with the three d television craze, which

1:22:20

was a whole -- Yes. -- interesting universe movie because then we're gonna

1:22:22

leave that for later. No. We're

1:22:23

gonna talk about that. Okay. We're

1:22:24

gonna talk about that. We don't talk about it. No. Okay. But don't

1:22:26

worry about it. We'll get about it. What's the running time right

1:22:28

now? An

1:22:29

hour twenty. Exactly.

1:22:30

We're recording two episodes. This

1:22:32

is part one of the Coraline episode. It

1:22:35

might be three episodes. An element that you

1:22:37

didn't get to see, which

1:22:39

actually makes this film a good film that

1:22:41

I like to film that I think is

1:22:44

incredible and a film that like I

1:22:46

I hold in this very high esteem is

1:22:48

what they do with stereoscopic imaging.

1:22:51

So we talked to obviously,

1:22:53

we've talked here about, like, Billy Lynn and everything that's

1:22:56

happened there and how anglia is one of people that

1:22:58

really thinks about this in a creative sense

1:23:00

as part of the medium. I would say that there's

1:23:02

a lot James Cameron does Mhmm.

1:23:04

But I would say there's a lot of filmmakers

1:23:06

that three d to the studio

1:23:08

was just an added thing to add the tickets.

1:23:10

It's just it's just actually five bucks. Ticketmaster.

1:23:13

Yeah. Yeah. And so they they shoot their film exactly

1:23:15

how they normally shoot their film. Don't

1:23:18

do anything to really maybe they'll have one or two little

1:23:20

things that play with though. Something's like, you know,

1:23:22

passes in front of the screen. There are many people who do

1:23:24

it skillfully. Immersion is usually

1:23:27

the beginning and the end of the thinking. Right? Like

1:23:29

-- Yeah. -- a Scorsese will have a couple moments

1:23:31

that are very clearly explicitly designed

1:23:33

for three d. Yeah. He's

1:23:34

certainly conscious of it in the framing of every shot

1:23:36

and something like Hugo, but it's

1:23:38

also, like, not tied to story

1:23:41

in the same sense. I do remember Hugo using

1:23:43

it quite nice. Hugo used it well. Like,

1:23:45

Dark of the Moon uses it well. You know, there

1:23:47

are other

1:23:47

Dark of the Moon uses everything. Right. Yeah. But

1:23:49

will say this not only from a story

1:23:51

perspective, But again, stop

1:23:54

motion ends up being the one place where

1:23:56

you can actually explore everything that stereoscopic

1:23:58

has to offer. Yes. So something that I think

1:24:00

is fascinating. And that's why sort of talking

1:24:02

about the camera side of things, which I I won't

1:24:04

go too much deeper into it. But

1:24:07

in the past for stop motion, Obviously,

1:24:10

they would use film cameras in the past, which was its

1:24:12

own complicated thing. You know, you take you take a

1:24:14

frame, move your puppet, take a frame. It's

1:24:16

this long arduous process. Literally don't know if

1:24:18

it's working or not until you get the footage

1:24:20

back developed from the lab. Yeah.

1:24:23

Well, you did have things called lunchboxes or things

1:24:25

like that that would allow you to see previews up and it

1:24:27

is hard. Digital cinema comes along and makes it lot

1:24:29

easier because you can see your frames are happening. Yeah.

1:24:31

Corps Pride, for example, is shot on, like,

1:24:33

a Canon one d. Like, a consumer

1:24:36

a consumer grade camera -- Yeah. --

1:24:38

like that people probably have. And

1:24:40

they had to create all this technology to try to get it

1:24:42

to work and operate, but it's a little clunky. So

1:24:45

in Coraline, what they ended up doing is

1:24:47

they use a machine imaging

1:24:49

camera the type of camera that you'd use

1:24:51

like in like a factory setting, what

1:24:54

that allowed them to do was program

1:24:56

the camera super specifically. So

1:24:58

the reason I was talking about this this two camera thing is that

1:25:00

when you're shooting live action elements with two cameras

1:25:03

to get stereoscopic, you have

1:25:05

one of the biggest early

1:25:07

hurdles is cameras have

1:25:09

lenses, which is the glass stuff that makes the

1:25:11

light look cool, you know, that Yeah. We know fun

1:25:14

line. We know we've discussed them with

1:25:16

you. Yes. Exactly. Right. So,

1:25:19

stereoscopic, if those lenses

1:25:21

don't

1:25:22

match, it

1:25:24

could. think those are a heck of a

1:25:26

ton. Tonk there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Holding that

1:25:28

one in. Oh, shit.

1:25:32

Everybody if you're in a car right now, I go

1:25:34

quick hogs. Seriously.

1:25:39

So one of the things Lincoln. Thank

1:25:41

you. Yeah. If you're in a car, just this episode.

1:25:43

Give a quick Pamper. I'm sorry. Stop it.

1:25:45

Hunk if you love stereo stop

1:25:47

work. Bumper stickers. Actually, because I

1:25:49

do feel like people don't under or whatever.

1:25:50

Okay. So you have a camera phone Each time, some listeners.

1:25:52

Right

1:25:53

on the too. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm.

1:25:56

So lenses, I think we think of as these

1:25:58

finite objects that are just

1:26:00

like you know, always perfect. Lenses are

1:26:02

really imperfect things because it's glass elements.

1:26:05

Right? So lenses have a lot

1:26:07

of these issues that can come about them that

1:26:09

are unique to those lenses. That you

1:26:11

have to test in films usually to see

1:26:13

if your lenses match just generally between

1:26:15

shots, let alone stereoscopic. Those are

1:26:17

things like chromatic aberration where

1:26:20

that's when your different color wavelengths don't

1:26:22

focus the same place. That's when you get like

1:26:24

this sort of edge coloring on

1:26:27

weird lighted objects, you have

1:26:29

like spherical distortion and

1:26:31

aberration, which is like all these little things

1:26:33

that make lenses unique, which is why also cinematographers

1:26:36

will search out for lenses that have the

1:26:38

perfect balance of all of these things. And

1:26:41

it's not something you can really plan for.

1:26:43

You just have to each lens is gonna have its own

1:26:45

quality. But when you're shooting stereoscopic, right,

1:26:48

Each of those lenses represents one of your

1:26:50

eyes. So if any of those lenses are different,

1:26:53

it creates these weird effects that

1:26:55

don't quite line up exactly. And

1:26:57

that's when stuff starts because,

1:27:00

again, imagine if your eyes were

1:27:02

seeing images that were even

1:27:04

more different than they already are. You'd start to get a little

1:27:07

it'd take you a minute to adjust. But we already

1:27:09

have that with our eyes. Now add lenses to the

1:27:11

mix. If the lenses of A3D

1:27:13

film are different, it's starting to create

1:27:15

this weird thing. And, interestingly, talked about

1:27:17

it so much, and Billy Linde talked about is

1:27:19

they had to search far and wide for

1:27:21

lenses that were as closest humanly possible

1:27:23

because any differences between the lenses because

1:27:25

all these huge images. Well, stop

1:27:28

motion. Talk about three d giving them headaches.

1:27:30

It's because of not

1:27:32

exclusively, but so often these

1:27:35

sort of discrepancies will

1:27:37

cause your brain to have to work over

1:27:39

time. Right. Well, also think of this, if the cameras

1:27:42

are off timing at all, that means the two images being

1:27:44

processed in each eye when you're watching it

1:27:46

are slightly

1:27:46

different.

1:27:47

Yeah. And that's the stuff that creates these headaches that

1:27:49

makes you feel sick as you're like, oh, this is like

1:27:51

the images aren't exactly the same, something's

1:27:53

messed up, and you can't sense it, you just feel

1:27:55

sick. Right. With stop motion,

1:27:58

your subject isn't moving.

1:28:01

Right? Obviously, it's you're taking still

1:28:03

photos of it. You

1:28:05

don't need two cameras. So

1:28:08

what they did is they took one

1:28:09

camera. Mhmm. But take a photo.

1:28:11

This already sounds stress. Phone. This will move

1:28:13

it over. And then move it over. Yeah.

1:28:16

And take another phone. Yeah. Now what's even

1:28:18

more interesting about this is that normally,

1:28:20

when you are doing stereoscopy, you have to get those

1:28:22

lenses really close to be the distance between human

1:28:24

eyes. You know what I mean? And a lot of times what

1:28:27

you end up doing is you use these these

1:28:29

mirror deflection plates that

1:28:31

basically use mirrors to shoot

1:28:34

the the images into the two different

1:28:36

eyes so they can be much closer. Now

1:28:38

you're dealing with another element of glass, which is mirrors,

1:28:40

which is gonna take down some of your brightness. It's it's

1:28:42

it creates all these issues. Sure. They're

1:28:45

not having to do that. They're able

1:28:47

to create that

1:28:49

distance with skip and beyond that. I

1:28:51

think they do that I think is fascinating that makes

1:28:53

this absolutely brilliant. Instead

1:28:56

of having the cameras, the distance

1:28:58

of human eyes, they

1:29:00

have their cameras separated by the distance of

1:29:02

the puppet eyes. So

1:29:04

that your three-dimensional perspective in

1:29:06

the sets is not that from

1:29:08

a normal sized person looking

1:29:11

at these miniatures

1:29:12

but from the three-dimensional perspective of

1:29:14

someone who is of that size. I have a

1:29:16

couple of notes for you. Yeah. Notes are questions.

1:29:19

Notes. One, You said

1:29:21

the puppets don't move. They do when everyone leaves and

1:29:23

goes home and turns out the lights, the puppets come to life

1:29:25

and they move around just FYI. Did you start

1:29:27

the aftermarket thing and buy the work?

1:29:29

We place it up here. To

1:29:33

that's all very interesting, but James Cameron

1:29:35

went to Pandora. And

1:29:37

filmed the whole movie there. That was pretty difficult.

1:29:39

You had to wear a gas mask and all that?

1:29:41

Yes. So give him some credit. And work visas

1:29:43

were a fucking nightmare on that movie. Horrible.

1:29:46

I gotta deal with, you know, fuck.

1:29:48

I don't even know what the company's called in Avtar

1:29:51

or whatever they are.

1:29:51

Yeah. Anyway, the Nadia workers unionized

1:29:54

eventually, which I was really good.

1:29:55

It was so nice to support them, obviously. Like,

1:29:57

I you know, if I just I I think they should be, you

1:29:59

know, given I

1:30:01

don't even know what Navi currency is. You know,

1:30:03

this should be given as many --

1:30:05

Hey, Wabots. -- bows and arrows as they were like, yeah.

1:30:07

Yeah. Hey, Wabots. Great. Yeah. I'm sure they

1:30:10

love that. Now every four hours

1:30:12

at the stop to put their head

1:30:14

right. They gotta reach your attention to it.

1:30:17

Whatever.

1:30:18

You mean mandated ponytail break? No.

1:30:21

That's very interesting. So our

1:30:23

puppet eyes further apart on

1:30:25

their heads? Or is that they're very much closer to

1:30:27

the

1:30:27

intersection? Because they're tiny. They're tiny. So they're

1:30:29

much closer to the difference between the two to

1:30:31

the the left and right movement of the camera. Right.

1:30:34

And that's also why they're using What's

1:30:36

so funny is, like, when you if you are a

1:30:39

film nerd, you're looking up movies,

1:30:41

you sort of like like to look up, like, what cameras they're

1:30:43

using and what Lend system. I'm like, oh, is

1:30:45

this did did they use Xyce or Ankenew

1:30:47

or this or that? Or they this is a Panavision movie.

1:30:49

For this, the camera they used was the mega

1:30:52

plus EC eleven thousand

1:30:54

color CCD machine vision

1:30:56

camera. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've got one of those. It's

1:30:58

like it's like essentially like a Ford factory

1:31:00

line camera. Yes. But it's like at a at a car

1:31:03

manufacturing. Yeah. It's like in play. Probably

1:31:05

it's probably used to, like, I don't know, like,