0:04

hey folks, with an ex of

0:06

course katie here things are going to be a

0:08

little bit different this week jesse is gone,

0:10

he is off actually i didn't

0:12

ask what he's doing and really who cares anyway

0:15

it's just going to be me this week along with

0:18

helen lewis, a reporter

0:20

for the atlantic and jesse

0:22

will be back next week enjoy the show

0:31

lewis is a staff writer at the atlantic

0:34

as well as the author of difficult women

0:36

a history of feminism and eleven sites

0:39

she's also the hosts of a new radio documentary

0:42

called the church of social justice which

0:44

will air on the bbc on sixteenth

0:47

we're going to talk about that and a little while the

0:49

first hello and welcome to blocked and reported i

0:51

should mention we've discussed you on the

0:54

show several times including

0:56

a piece that you wrote about people with tourette's

0:58

or perhaps people thinking tourette's

1:00

civically on tic toc and we

1:02

also discuss you when a voiceover

1:05

yours was removed from a video

1:07

game because of your turf eat

1:09

tendencies so let's start there you

1:12

are a resident of turf island which

1:14

the new official name of the uk

1:17

and your frequently groups and with other feminists

1:19

writers who been critical of the new

1:22

ideology and things like self id

1:25

there's a lot going on going on island right

1:27

now and i'm gonna ask you about that and a moment

1:29

but first how did you get

1:31

involved in this particular culture war

1:33

battle what was your peaking moment

1:36

that's historical question

1:38

for me now i mean i feel it's something he was

1:40

kind of people staggering and know like very

1:43

new to the subject and then they kind of them say

1:45

something on twitter and they get this kinda someone nuclear

1:47

blast bucket them in the like everybody

1:49

seems very angry about this and

1:51

these kind of i feel like i'm when we can a grizzled

1:53

old veteran

1:54

and a fucking on my roll up being that he

1:56

should have been around here in twenty four

1:58

green i'm a

1:59

your general washington in this case right exactly

2:02

yet so i it was meant fourteen i was

2:04

at the new statesman then i stepped editor and i

2:07

it was around the time of delivery the time

2:10

com right that this a nice

2:11

right battle am and i'm into

2:14

right about having we did a trans

2:16

issues week we did very sympathetic

2:18

we have people from i think various of

2:20

the campaign groups rising and seven sorry

2:23

you were really affecting so people writing about

2:25

i'm into this the difficulties accessing have

2:27

a kind of levels street harassment in

2:29

a kind of how's your casual cruelty

2:32

i think that i was in the nineties

2:34

into thousands about

2:36

the idea that people sort of allowing some ice my

2:38

sympathies were in i'm an amateur know i kind

2:40

of confirm the to the school list but

2:43

then but then kept happening i've

2:45

quite alarming rate save live

2:48

in cook stirring celebration front of her time free

2:50

erudite i'm at peace me you know if this

2:52

is actually what liberation excite been

2:54

kind of into a tight dress and huge

2:57

hair extensions that know what

2:59

feminism heard is that

3:01

the perfect and point for women so when

3:03

did he suddenly become the aspiration

3:05

of thing for women and then there were more more instances

3:07

like that then what happened is

3:10

twenty , there was a a parliamentary

3:12

inquiry led by somebody maria

3:14

miller a tory mps arriving mp split

3:17

been silvana point in best known for slightly

3:19

fiddling her expenses and she clearly decided

3:21

that the great comeback was her being champion

3:24

of feminism the first inquiry she with

3:27

this and car entered into trans issues

3:29

and what came out by is that they didn't have anything the

3:32

street speak i'm it was only transcripts

3:34

an but there was two people like prison governors

3:37

he said will hang him if we go to pure self id they're

3:39

real problems here because what will happen when a

3:41

male rapists once the female prison like that

3:43

something we need think that in advance and she's

3:45

are blissfully steamroll a possible that possible

3:48

people saying the real problem here is access to medical

3:50

and funding and then came out

3:53

with like to the ourself i d m

3:56

rage everyone's gonna sit here thanked

3:58

me and be brilliant and cause people

3:59

it actually looks at the same as going to point one

4:02

who we doing to bit more scrutiny this the policy

4:04

and then capri angry said they were fake feminists

4:07

i'm i'm not really for me was the the

4:10

tipping point because i've always been interested been interested is

4:12

a policy issue right as an issue of policy

4:15

capture interest groups and

4:17

then rushed decision making

4:19

that doesn't take into account it didn't because ideology

4:22

comes first

4:23

i think some american listeners will find

4:25

this interesting that

4:27

the tories are lead the

4:29

party that sort of started all in the uk

4:32

right so this this from faulty was

4:34

right about american bellicosity what say

4:36

having turned up late for the last well war they're very

4:38

keen be on time they an

4:41

iso thing that applies to conservative entity

4:44

to entity to you say

4:46

am labour patrice civil partnerships

4:48

which was the first version of gay marriage and then david

4:50

cameron upgraded that's to gay marriage and he

4:52

said this great thing which was i doing

4:55

fact gay marriage in spite of being a conservative

4:58

i'm a conservative right marriages can it

5:00

it institution about stable it is citing

5:02

the family louis and and i think i kind

5:04

of the all this is very exciting people being nice it's

5:08

really it's it's great a good to be not said it

5:10

depicted as he said the south faced right wing

5:12

the anymore i may quite liked

5:14

quite and

5:16

it was always presented right self ideas

5:18

in a in a way the think is very sympathetic

5:21

to the right into libertarians which is average

5:23

be to be whoever they want to be and

5:25

, incorrect like that's obviously a said

5:28

fundamentally libertarian messages if you don't

5:30

live in a society and your actions affect else

5:33

so i don't think issue has been a i

5:35

know it's know ended up my that in america but america

5:37

think on the into to become such a kind of corporate

5:39

saying is that it's very easy to just say

5:41

i think one should be they're authentic self

5:44

the only people who are going to suffer for this are boring

5:46

middle aged women are who cares about them okay

5:49

so the tories

5:51

nut so for american wizards you may not be

5:53

aware of this or not equivalent

5:55

of the republican party in the uk because you're

5:58

much further to the left of us

5:59

basically all issues yet unlike the democrat

6:02

basing i feel

6:03

so what do the labour party the equivalent

6:05

of the of social social

6:07

democrats are some young

6:09

yeah not yeah not not quite as far left his

6:12

the irony and you know they

6:14

came out of the the the labor union movement

6:17

they were working class party in their original

6:19

version which i'm not sure either of

6:21

the main american parties quite have that kind of said

6:24

of origin the and so what

6:26

is the as this has evolved over the past

6:28

few years does this does is is

6:30

an issue that the tories the conservatives

6:33

in the uk champions no

6:35

and what seem really interesting is that it's been leadership

6:38

for the next to really to who's there for the next

6:40

prime minister right to replace boris johnson and

6:43

not only has less trust

6:45

fund of the contenders made a big

6:46

they'll about the hatch who's equalities minister and she's

6:48

kind of basis i put a stop to all of this i

6:50

made sure that he notes that was

6:52

propiska

6:53

the money but even missy cynic

6:55

who is that never and chris

6:58

far as i can understand any particular interest in

7:00

feminism a sudden he says assign i'm going

7:02

to go and fight the work blob am

7:04

it's obvious popular with the

7:06

no one hundred and fifty isn't aren't tory

7:09

activists who are much more to live in the size

7:11

of england to be in a white

7:13

be wealthier to be over sixty

7:16

to be offended the only candidate who was truly

7:19

pray self i day more than have

7:22

you basically have first thing out of the gate was

7:24

to say i bet she always know when a woman

7:26

is it has become

7:28

has kind of on the right now

7:30

there's very little enthusiasm

7:32

for i'm trans

7:35

women trans women exact the same way as and natal

7:37

woman's it has been an insult thanks

7:39

near ice extent he has become a slightly know

7:41

the in a kind of american culture

7:43

war in that sense but it's certainly

7:45

not mainstream conservative

7:47

opinion anymore or which the a period of

7:49

bizarre uniformity between the two main

7:51

parties here the others interesting that the

7:53

trajectory the sort of started in the uk

7:56

but now has a decidedly sort of america and

7:58

cultures turn yeah thank you always

8:00

for him imposing assess

8:02

your arguments to as i to i

8:04

do it is particularly american

8:07

argument in in some ways because

8:10

i do think it does have the overtime the see

8:12

him in tibet isn't later make us the documentary

8:14

but it's very the suit there is

8:16

a quality to it about having a spiritual in

8:18

or essence and the best way to understand that as a

8:21

kind of gendered soul i'm

8:23

and so i think it is and more appealing

8:25

to america country that is much more easily know

8:27

in just the idea of the so but politicians

8:29

but actually talking about their souls he

8:31

kind stuff makes people slightly growing

8:34

that he's here in the same way that if you

8:36

had a kind of religion also for it and housing

8:38

authority speaking the he

8:40

people com

8:41

the find that quite embarrassing and not

8:43

know what to say than think kings

8:45

why would a great manifestation of followed right

8:48

you don't have a camera in the uk but

8:51

i don't know what that is so it's the

8:53

best way to describe it would be a sort of highly

8:55

religious people handling venomous snakes

8:57

in order to prove their out of their devotion

8:59

to the lord or or something like that sometimes

9:02

die a ,

9:04

and have precisely one mistake

9:08

answer and like it is it is pay the

9:10

lead that doesn't really do much good it's too cold

9:13

for overtime is quite lazy say a

9:15

i don't know if you could really test to facing quite the same

9:18

way as a very have to do with some other

9:20

some other british days or something like that

9:22

of if and she yeah you could even be a

9:25

goose handler food for jesus as the

9:27

okay so there's a lot going

9:29

on in terms of policy developments

9:31

in in law in the uk and i'm like to

9:33

explain

9:34

what's going on starting with tavistock

9:37

how and what the hell is status dogs

9:39

what's going on with it so the toughest

9:41

so comportment is a national health

9:43

service trust so essentially

9:44

the you know on blissful socialized

9:47

medicine where if you lose your job you're still to

9:49

have cancer treatments really an elective

9:51

want yeah i didn't lie as it's

9:54

basically communism am is divided

9:56

up into trust of mostly

9:59

geographic

9:59

this happens to be based in london

10:02

and in a couple years get was given the contract

10:04

for like to be d child's gender

10:07

and services there couple of to settle

10:09

i get in insist the interrupt your really quickly what

10:12

is the trust it's ,

10:15

basically up an organization that is a publicly

10:17

funded but has some autonomy to organize

10:20

it's own affairs i don't think there is an equivalent

10:22

so like a health i board i'm

10:24

sorry about eat probably how bad the state level

10:27

have that the nhs into various kind

10:29

of areas and they can kinda commission services

10:31

are in their local area and does make those decisions

10:33

so the thomas it does a bunch of other things see

10:36

but it also has a single good so gender identity

10:38

development service and

10:40

that became like the the

10:42

next president lie in leeds and

10:45

and some other provisions in scotland and elsewhere

10:47

but this is that like the biggie right and it was all concentrated

10:49

here and like

10:52

almost else in the world they both

10:54

had both had spike in cases in the last twenty

10:56

fold and a dramatic reversal

10:59

and he cases where so it went from nathan

11:02

biological mail predominantly

11:04

to nato biological females and as

11:07

has happened everywhere the amount the profile change

11:09

right from

11:09

have you had a persistent cross gender identification

11:11

into old had to adolescents to

11:13

him this was instrumental recent much

11:16

might have autism

11:17

much more like of other mental health problems may

11:19

be eating disorders he can really complicated

11:21

cases maybe trauma answer

11:23

they suffered all about stuff that we've seen

11:25

in american across the

11:27

and you they were giving at puberty blockers

11:30

and a couple of years ago now

11:32

a d transitional okay rebel the

11:35

into court and said i was computers you

11:37

got this it sixty alison had it went on

11:39

to a double mastectomy went on

11:41

testosterone i really regret

11:43

that now on i shouldn't have been allowed to do

11:45

that and and all the way they had

11:47

a court of appeal judgments went various this

11:50

way and that's that the result that was first

11:52

or the regime tightened a lot mate

11:54

was much more emphasis more emphasis on print consent

11:57

and then the second thing that in into this to interrupt

11:59

you

11:59

it is because of fear of lawsuits

12:02

or is this because they reevaluated designed

12:04

to think for one of these came out of the is that the

12:06

judges

12:07

the evidence of for puberty

12:09

blockers and the tavistock said will

12:12

get right back to we don't have a yet and then they

12:14

published it almost immediately after that the

12:16

first case concluded i'm

12:18

what they found was that of the

12:20

people in the sand for all but one

12:22

of the people who they treated with puberty blockers went

12:24

on to cross sex hormones i'm

12:26

sorry member thinking at the time whether that be

12:29

outcome of this specific cases is established

12:31

two things the first is it that judges have

12:33

called the street that quote unquote thera

12:35

mental it's not settled not a safe

12:37

irreversible pulls on pbt they said we actually don't

12:39

know what's going on here and the

12:42

second one reason the suppose pbc that

12:44

of people opt out of it the with a ticket

12:46

on a train the only has one destination and

12:48

probably for initial what patients in

12:50

these drugs to develop trite who were people who were

12:53

pbt at like six years old it

12:55

was oppose until you what's up with him as you age

12:57

rape and then you could go through puberty at the same time

12:59

as everybody in your school which was

13:01

in a it was a poor was that point

13:03

to pause but the new suggests

13:05

and didn't really and

13:08

one of the things that sir hilary cast hilary he

13:10

was very the anguished

13:12

former chief of the royal society

13:15

pediatricians has been doing this review into the child

13:17

and sepsis one of the things that she said

13:19

which again we've seen in other countries tapes

13:22

is maybe there is something about puberty

13:24

itself which causes children

13:27

who are gender nonconforming have gender distress

13:29

it causes that to results and if he let them

13:32

three the puberty you are never going to know

13:34

who would have grown on be a happy

13:37

or quiet eminent gay boy who is

13:40

so strong identified with the opposite sex that

13:42

they want to transition

13:43

right and for for decades

13:46

studies of kids who had been referred to gender identity

13:48

found that the majority of them did desist

13:51

once they've aged out age out of

13:53

abuse once they became adults are older

13:55

adolescence they're just the three awarded

13:58

would resolve itself it's called assisting

13:59

right for this is the other piece of the puzzle that i

14:02

think is really developed

14:02

in the last twenty years come sandwiches the

14:04

idea of gender identity as this quality

14:07

that we will

14:07

that's and the to his needs to be

14:09

know it's there and it's unchained

14:11

throughout life and just need to

14:13

enable access it and understand it's spiritual

14:16

tree

14:16

because that made it

14:18

i'm very much

14:19

definitive that you could uncover these kids with this

14:21

with this particular gender identity they'd always had

14:23

they might does not have known it and it could

14:25

be known in it with received the truth and

14:27

actually looks like the realities a little more

14:30

fluid than that and

14:32

that their arse people who live very much

14:34

on the borderline where they could either paint

14:36

medical treatment or not and it's it's very personal

14:38

decision to them that they any to take about what's

14:40

the best outcome for them yeah

14:43

so what happened with have a sock recently

14:45

will it's been shot ah i mean this is

14:47

a kind of extraordinary thing so hillary cast

14:49

as i said very distinguished pediatrician this commissioned

14:51

by the government to and sweats thomas

14:54

do the same had already been related

14:56

an inadequate by the commissioner

14:58

they said the is just not keeping records

15:00

enough i'm in if you look at them through

15:03

them minute stay with he bet he

15:05

the certain cells were talking about the fact that info under

15:07

pressure from mermaids and

15:10

stonewall satisfaction gender charity

15:12

and one big lgbt charities and

15:14

from parents who had been supported by this charities

15:17

to deliver a particular i com so

15:19

that was that strong feeling that

15:20

during his report that parents

15:23

with

15:24

shopping for an that they wanted they

15:26

got incredibly distress child and

15:28

they knew what was to fix them and then what was

15:30

going to fix them was people to discuss cross

15:32

sex home and what's interesting

15:34

is i don't america is got the capacity

15:37

to make that distinction right thing is much more

15:39

accepted the american health care system if you

15:41

have to go for it and you want to your topic

15:44

and who is anyone else to tell you that you shouldn't have it right

15:47

and so what is this me now that tavistock

15:49

has been shuttered what is this mean for kids with

15:51

gender identity disorder or center

15:54

to soar

15:54

it going going forward

15:55

what has been very sensitive i think

15:58

and no used inflammatory language

15:59

you have some people calling the tavistock in a time and

16:02

while or or it's you know it's a

16:05

here it is exterminating

16:07

gates

16:08

whenever it might be and she is just not use

16:10

any of that kind of language a tool of into

16:12

him for a opening page that said

16:15

you , to address to gender diverse you saying

16:17

like down where we're still gonna tree we want what's best

16:19

for you so it's not being framed in his american culture

16:21

war terms as in we like we're going to cut down on the in

16:24

a wacko doc says him up eating

16:26

the it's like it's just

16:28

it's a very sensible kind of middle

16:30

ground but what she said is essentially in line with finland

16:33

and sweden suggestion

16:35

is used only black you're in rolled

16:37

in a proper clinical trial say someone comes

16:39

back and says in two five years ten

16:41

years how you getting on both

16:44

in terms of your happiness with your transition and transition

16:46

was your bone density you know how is your brain

16:49

development answer brain some questions

16:51

about whether or not whether actually the puberty thinking price

16:53

itself effect lifetime brain

16:55

development in ability to make decisions

16:57

brain maturation which is really quite

17:00

scary when you think that we've been giving these drugs

17:02

act without what did they

17:04

do to children's brains i'm

17:07

and she is she said we just gonna

17:09

have to macmanus is much more then the other thing

17:11

that's happening is instead of having like the gender clinic

17:13

and you agenda program and you get sent the gender

17:15

clinics the services are to

17:18

put out into print hospitals are in the country

17:21

anything pretty

17:23

recently is this she seems to

17:25

think that what happens is if turn up at the tavistock

17:28

with all kinds of other problems and gender dysphoria

17:30

what gets treated as the gender dysphoria in

17:33

a when europe and when you ain't would you could is a hammer

17:35

everything looks like a nail and instead

17:37

if he put they services

17:39

in normal mental health commission contacts

17:42

it might be decided that the what is really needed

17:44

treatment is the fact that this child's a victim

17:46

of sexual abuse is charles cause autism

17:48

or another developmental disorder this child has

17:51

an eating disorder and part of that is

17:53

the fact that dates you know i'm also want

17:55

that breast removed

17:56

so it just seems to be taking a much

17:58

more

17:59

hello

17:59

the approach that there might be other things going

18:02

on i'm which i just then

18:04

about you but i just having read that very

18:06

tortuously long emily else colonial

18:09

times i just think sunamerica get

18:11

to a place where that kind of evidence

18:13

is the couple the

18:16

it doesn't feel like platinum

18:18

yeah this is a really good question and i'm i'm

18:20

not sure that the shuttering of tavistock

18:23

which was considered a victory by gender

18:25

critical feminist in the uk i'm not sure that

18:27

that will much of an impact at least in the short

18:29

term in the us because this has become

18:31

suitable for issue that

18:33

any attempt

18:34

q

18:35

take a more conservative approach to

18:38

to gender dysphoria in diagnosing gender dysphoria

18:40

immediately becomes perceived as a

18:42

right wing value and of something becomes perceived

18:45

as a right wing value than ,

18:47

on the left rebel against love i

18:49

think you could buy a situation where half

18:51

the country think that giving mine

18:54

as any kind of gender related his child

18:56

abuse and you've got a load of other people

18:58

who think that withholding january

19:00

late your cat is child abuse and

19:02

once you've introduced the idea that there's one

19:04

right haunts ah and the other answer is child

19:07

abuse i don't know how you climb that rhetorical

19:09

lotta and you're right the problem behaviors that i

19:11

think progressive activists of inoculated themselves

19:14

from dealing with the uncomfortable

19:16

reality of the actual evidence if i'm

19:18

what know day we buy britain is our say leucosis

19:21

happening in turf island where you know

19:23

unlike the gloriously enlightened united

19:25

states

19:25

for the troglodytes with

19:27

front teeth have you know he just hate trans

19:29

people i'm , don't drink coffee

19:31

and you certainly don't have

19:34

i'm ice cubes the necessary

19:35

it it will

19:36

let me see our religion accosted by

19:38

an ounce

19:41

okay so this was considered at least on twitter

19:43

this was the shuttering of tavistock with was

19:45

appeared to be appeared victory by gender how

19:48

did trans the activists in

19:50

the uk react to this very quietly

19:53

i'm there a couple of charities of her aunt statement

19:55

saying it's good because this means

19:57

election the more provision am

20:00

you know it was was one of those things where did i

20:02

with that with this subject right the at

20:04

human objective li bad

20:06

happens there is a great message

20:09

distance discipline by transparent

20:11

isn't transact with a just simply will not engage

20:13

the not talk about ten

20:14

that happened in that in and the of i think

20:17

isn't would be the other big example right the he

20:19

just say well this this never and then it does happen

20:21

any seven it's incredibly rare or you just simply

20:23

to spend engage with it at all and i

20:25

think this was an example edit the line

20:28

was basically the tavistock was shut down

20:30

because it's increase the long waiting lists right

20:33

and that civil suit civil mean as part of

20:35

it but it's not it's definitely not if you actually

20:38

read the coast the report all of it

20:40

i'm in a while i actually think it's a reasonable point

20:42

in waiting this while fancy lungs and the two

20:44

things can coexist right it reaches both you

20:46

can wait two years to get through the door the and

20:49

then the treatment can be over hasty

20:52

once in that those two things not

20:54

mutually exclusive am so

20:56

the that they were making about longer

20:58

waiting lists where in some respects validated didn't

21:00

mean that the treatment wasn't also rushed into

21:03

be clear

21:04

this does not mean that kids won't have access

21:06

to puberty blockers in the uk at all just the system

21:09

is changing

21:10

but it does seem to me that they're moving towards

21:12

moreover european model which that the

21:14

first line treatment is sarah

21:17

pay right and hopefully quite

21:19

intensive talking therapies particularly

21:21

for that cohort the is the new style

21:24

the know i feel you're allowed

21:26

call it rapid onset gender dysphoria additional says

21:28

i guess he can say

21:29

important the the real

21:32

identification so i think everybody

21:34

i don't ever maybe i say this hopefully there are no

21:36

there are lots of people who don't think there is such thing

21:38

as a kind of child's i take a different view

21:41

which is that there are some kids who ferry

21:43

from a very early age if they're a male

21:45

will say i'm but i'm a girl and those

21:47

people are very different to my

21:49

mind and unhappy female teenager

21:52

who i think i think generation would have ended

21:54

up anorexic and that's what i said to i went

21:56

into the we should talk to name bite me in

21:58

a couple years can i said are actually

21:59

so isn't this generation's anorexia

22:02

and we didn't treat those girls who had

22:04

profound hatred profound their body by giving

22:06

them liposuction

22:07

an at around the same time that

22:09

the news about cabs dog drops the legal

22:12

case of alison bailey resolved to

22:14

tell us about that who is alison barely

22:16

i like this this is like some kind of terrible

22:18

the open me through

22:19

for having money come on purpose

22:21

and explained the most complicated legal cases

22:24

of the last fight is that

22:26

, years as his answer as the others

22:28

and bailey is a

22:30

barista to sign work

22:32

out whether or not that i didn't have good does

22:35

it have the division between solicitors embarrasses

22:37

this is to make now we call lawyers ever

22:39

lawyers attorneys and is the same thing a case

22:41

that want the county speaks in cool basically

22:44

say as the same thing it's yeah we don't have

22:46

it's of isn't are have diverse in their well

22:48

are you out on least not the terms of

22:50

the of the nomenclature okay cool

22:53

the reason that matters is that each barristers

22:55

attached to the chambers where

22:57

that lot britain has in that an

23:00

eye to five it's which are set makes

23:03

and sunlight badges per se

23:05

so basically you work in a kind of work is

23:07

collected

23:08

it's kind of it's been a filled

23:10

open century language so it doesn't send a socialist

23:13

is that makes its and that's essentially will band together

23:15

the group of other he dissimilar practice t

23:17

a and you own it to gear the

23:19

only spread

23:20

collectively and what means

23:22

is that they're ahead the chamber's who

23:24

are the my senior lawyer there and

23:26

then they're a clark's smoke clerks who

23:29

give out all the jobs individual barristers in

23:32

practice it should

23:34

be equal but there's a lot easier to stay to see

23:36

king and this was the corvallis and complaint

23:39

say she said she

23:41

sued both her employers for

23:44

essentially didn't discrimination didn't discrimination

23:46

grounds of her gender critical police and

23:48

also stonewall the largest

23:50

lgbt charity in your

23:53

but she's recently become very controversial

23:55

because of it's incredible power over

23:58

by corporations and government

23:59

and getting it's legislative in

24:02

iraq and policy priorities straight she

24:04

sued her employer and she said stay more yeah

24:06

there's a a isn't a bbc documentary

24:09

about stonewall that's that's really quite get it

24:11

explains exactly what they do in the power that

24:13

they had that will lincoln those they're not guess

24:15

i'm steven there that i would love to yes

24:18

i would love a merciless there's to hear a

24:20

vary no

24:22

to be uma northern irish man

24:24

and his legs lovely producer who

24:26

actually understands the incredibly

24:28

titillate delicate legislation to developing

24:31

and each other's it's it's quite

24:33

the audio journey is this it as it as

24:35

am but one of things they looked at was the

24:37

way that they will have given and is he

24:40

and seen a take the when at stuff

24:42

is a birth parents are all that kind of

24:45

things had pushed

24:46

places to support self identification

24:49

you're getting of the medical diagnosis requirement

24:51

the to get agenda recognitions to because

24:55

bailey

24:56

mason and she didn't win against imo

24:58

there was no proof that

25:00

they had directly influence the chambers

25:02

set to discuss

25:03

in her but she did win against

25:05

her chambers am

25:07

because they created a kind of hostile working

25:09

environments and the the thing with interesting is

25:12

a bit like the about case in that's what came

25:14

during the court cases is the

25:16

actual result so you

25:19

must be familiar with the person who had to have

25:21

that support worth a mom and their support

25:23

dog when they testified

25:26

okay let's not

25:28

but it's very american actually so

25:31

though it was all conducted a that zoom

25:33

and for had this evidence were

25:36

alison bailey who by the way is black lesbian

25:38

survive there of child sexual assault

25:41

in a she got her rapist convicted decades

25:44

after the fall m ,

25:46

athena something specific freely genuinely

25:49

traumatic experiences and then with subject

25:51

essentially to this kind of of a

25:54

hostile environment and have and chambers

25:57

meanwhile you've got this evidence for one of the

25:59

gender grapes who has

26:02

a support worker that to show them what page their

26:05

own the documents and then has their

26:07

mom and that dog but

26:10

with infants crates and great moral support

26:12

every they all their on the same screen will

26:14

this is the funny thing is that because of the

26:17

possibility with tampering as if your mom

26:19

could be sitting of screen going to say that

26:22

it's that a all has to be and

26:25

they all had to be unkind he said that they can see that no

26:27

one is slipping him snakes i

26:30

mean i'm throwing a major the dog is it something of

26:32

that oliver i try to

26:34

be

26:34

neary

26:36

the people's he know

26:38

a eat dinner the phrase my

26:40

mustn't i think it's renounce for so

26:43

it's his description of somebody who some

26:45

sulay ribbon else has feelings like an elephant

26:47

but when they themselves have criticized has

26:49

the delicate skin of a man the florida

26:52

shrinks of the slightest touch i can't

26:54

help seeing in this discussion quite

26:57

a lot of people who a mime offense which is

26:59

that think that someone else should essentially because

27:01

that is be bullied out apply

27:03

for okay but they themselves

27:05

are so exquisitely sensitive that

27:07

they need all accommodations and the world and

27:10

central enough right but like if

27:12

you're not going if you're that person you all that the

27:14

new you find offensive even i kind of

27:16

thinking you really need to talk with you but

27:19

then you can't understand the other people might

27:21

have similarly tend

27:23

to feelings right with my but fitness it's

27:25

it's in only have a kind of goes one way only

27:28

only us suspect people are i

27:30

now emotional support need the alison

27:33

is is much money and she collapsed on the first

27:35

ever tried to take the hospital i think i've read

27:37

the story

27:37

the just kind of mean i've seen you eight

27:40

months or years for one of these employment

27:42

i'm but every couple things

27:44

that kind of came out of it one of the which is about

27:46

that stable did argue that objecting to self

27:48

id is in itself inherent

27:50

me the robot you cannot have

27:52

any good faith objections to it from a feminist

27:54

perspective know he just that anything

27:57

other than self i d's transcriber and what was

27:59

that oh

27:59

the outcome know who so as i say

28:02

she she won against the same issue and twenty two thousand

28:04

pounds in damages and because the chamber

28:06

tweeted it she was being investigated i'm

28:09

and they were because basically

28:12

the the idea was that the chamber's had to be treated

28:14

her so briefly that

28:17

in , is an award for hurt feelings she didn't

28:19

win against stonewall she

28:21

did also get another thing is i met the price is

28:23

being interesting syndicate b m the cotton

28:25

ceiling get a much wider airing spinney

28:29

other for his which tells which

28:31

i'm sure yeah you

28:32

the overly familiar with at this point

28:35

unfortunately the so

28:38

what's the for a bigger picture outcome

28:40

i saw people on twitter saying that this that

28:42

the outcome means essentially that gender

28:45

critical views cannot be

28:47

discriminated against against

28:50

in british

28:51

the employment is that is true

28:54

that does seem to be

28:55

released it because it's not just added but that

28:57

com a my a force that is case a my for said

28:59

the he worked for an american company

29:03

, ngx see

29:05

her case against same established basically the

29:07

principle that those views were worthy of

29:09

respect in a democratic system did he

29:12

didn't have to be true for they pretend to like

29:13

religious belief i say if you believe

29:16

that humans are sexually dimorphic species

29:18

and that you can't literally

29:19

the fact that his protected in the same

29:21

way as believing that you know jesus

29:23

literally race from the dead in this on the third day

29:27

so you nice to con abuse people at work

29:29

but to see the front of you believing these

29:31

things is not held to be

29:33

inherently been are beyond the pale so

29:36

that was caught in caught really quite important quite think

29:38

and this is it seems as though

29:40

of watching from the outside it seems as though both

29:42

sides

29:42

claimed victory

29:44

yeah cause she didn't win against same will and

29:46

she had crowd funded on the basis of i'm

29:48

suing stonewall and there has

29:50

been a concerted and peace

29:53

war movement

29:54

sometimes some the the involved in it been

29:56

the original find is that stable

29:59

but

29:59

analysis of them was based even

30:02

it was handed in the eighties it was

30:04

to campaign against

30:05

the homophobic laws specifically

30:07

the this disc law that's a bit

30:09

like basically version of the don't say gay build

30:11

a parental rights education bill florida which

30:13

is basically don't teach

30:14

all night don't game teaches even

30:17

mention that they gain a just keep it out the classroom

30:19

that was kind of find it that kind of atmosphere

30:22

and the of simon fans of is one of the

30:24

find as was that it when marriage was

30:26

passed gay adoptions legal here in a gated

30:28

conserve in the military the legislation

30:31

legislation rights was kind of done

30:33

so

30:34

the same would you go well done everyone

30:36

like let's go home that's have a picnic have a sandwich

30:39

know you don't you you be pivot to the nice

30:41

thing and the new thing was and cells i day

30:43

i i think the happened

30:45

here in the u s with organ a organizations

30:48

like the human rights campaign and glad they

30:50

didn't close up shop after the success

30:52

of gay marriage and then later last year

30:55

after the success of bostock out of

30:57

the supreme court

30:58

really

30:59

pivoted exactly as you said

31:01

is that the new issue and so there's than

31:03

a you know i'm often asked why is widespread

31:05

the she's tic of summers please michael's right now and i think

31:07

that is part of it is that these organizations

31:09

just switched to the next yet

31:12

he made this happen they build it into exists

31:14

the a sale you need stoners and the don't

31:16

as one

31:16

these athletes with clamps in them

31:19

about just say pregnant april i'm

31:21

right and so are you know as ever i rich

31:24

people they did this yeah

31:26

well can also been i owe [unk]

31:27

obviously blame american

31:29

yeah and what do you think americans

31:31

get wrong when we when we blather

31:33

on about what's going on and turf island

31:35

i wish i think whether or not i find it offensive

31:38

it's called turf island adding

31:40

, plenty of other than had another residents

31:43

of as an upright

31:45

know , dates but i think i

31:47

think it's sort of with it it's kind of as a

31:50

funny me like the word the word itself a dispenser

31:52

really interesting evolution right and right

31:54

have always good really strongly that it

31:56

shouldn't be used an

31:59

incomplete

31:59

i hate it's a much more people sending me

32:02

mad been a pictures of guns and and

32:04

the of tim able to slit my throat

32:06

i'm but i do think it has i sought

32:08

have been reclaimed the bylaws a british

32:10

tend to critical so i think it's something

32:12

that they feel it's okay if they use it i

32:14

think it's also one of the things that if is the term

32:17

turf has been applied to

32:19

so many people that it's lost

32:21

its is losing it's teeth right

32:23

and i think it's the difference really funny by to

32:26

a business is is there anything more cringe

32:28

some people trying to be like a have it gives

32:30

them much credit the not real feminists

32:33

i actually was the once fought

32:35

feminist appropriating radical transfers

32:37

and you're like yeah you're shouldn't be in charge

32:39

of naming things

32:40

because i just that yeah cringed a kidney

32:42

out of my mouse

32:46

okay so i

32:48

want to go back for back second to appease that

32:50

you road that out we have talked about before and

32:52

i mentioned earlier it's called the twitching

32:55

generation around the world doctors

32:57

have

32:57

these teenage patients reporting the sitting

32:59

on i could pick a

33:01

the first illness spread by social media

33:03

this is published in the atlantic and it

33:05

was about a sudden a plugin people

33:07

primarily girls or

33:09

perhaps we should call demonstrators exhibiting

33:12

symptoms of tourette's sometimes out of nowhere

33:14

and some psychologists think that

33:16

maybe a social can sit contagion that spreading

33:18

on social media particular tic toc not

33:21

there's an obvious parallel here when it comes

33:23

to gender but you chose not to make

33:25

that comparison in the peace i think was

33:27

wise i just wanted to ask you about or thought

33:29

process their yeah my so is the he should

33:31

let be it's own thing without using

33:33

it as has a porn and something wider

33:36

and i did you know i do think about it and i i did the

33:38

doctors i'm the dot

33:40

to see em undress hartman suggests

33:42

that and sleep more these patients

33:45

female quite a few them were non binary so

33:47

there is a kind of overlap there

33:50

in that they are they same high policy

33:52

of patient as once you present with gender dysphoria

33:55

but dysphoria think the problem with problem with is that just

33:58

it just felt like bringing everything

34:00

back into kind of proxy war

34:02

listed kind of disrespect the subject itself

34:05

be like i could have a grief for a lot people like

34:07

well if is pretending she hasn't had a rapid onset

34:10

gender dysphoria and , sink

34:12

and in a how feel about this but i think

34:14

that this is such a kind of hot button

34:16

issue the whole transgender issue issue

34:19

has some people's brains to the

34:21

extent that it's all the think morning noon

34:23

and and night don't want

34:25

to be that and i'm

34:28

interested person and as image than feminism

34:30

i'm interested in i'm interested in the formation

34:33

of policy and lobbying i

34:36

do not have any grievance against trans people

34:38

want to get on with living their lives in a this is not palm

34:40

i'm wider

34:42

right wing backlash to the i did it in

34:44

a meant the the idea that it's reverence got a bit

34:46

too overly limits were never dated in that when me and be

34:48

happier of men were just men and in lumberjack

34:50

shirts and like women pretty so

34:53

i not to like right too

34:55

much about no i think that's

34:57

wise and i also think that if

34:59

you had made the comparison the piece that

35:01

would have been the focus of abuse right abuse

35:03

right that my audience probably see the

35:06

parallel but also there are y

35:08

de points about the fact that this

35:10

is a repetitive cycle throughout history

35:13

and function

35:15

your logical disorder which is what gals mostly

35:17

actually have is in itself

35:20

of really interesting and misunderstood illness

35:22

and i am really interested in munch

35:25

has and i'm really interested in psychosomatic

35:28

disorders that pit have no physical

35:31

cores that stuff anita you

35:33

talked about recovered memory

35:34

therapy here on the on the poker straight

35:37

there were lots of things that have echoes across

35:39

time that a same underlying dynamics

35:42

and it's kind of interesting to them on their own terms

35:44

yeah it it is interesting that this kinda

35:46

it seems like generation has some

35:48

version of those mean when i would would i about

35:50

the same age when i was in school anorexia

35:52

and bulimia and cutters and it's not

35:54

as though somebody decides

35:57

to sorry slicing

35:59

lines

35:59

their arms or legs on their own this

36:02

this idea doesn't come out of nowhere this comes

36:04

because see other people do it

36:06

on which i find

36:08

the only fascinating but i'm also curious

36:10

why do you think that this does seem to

36:13

have sex girls more than boys that's

36:16

really didn't want that wading into kind of quite

36:18

since list days of of them

36:21

i think my hunch is that

36:23

girls mutt more social

36:25

in a particular why much more the

36:28

hierarchies or established three much

36:30

more cynical

36:31

they than

36:32

boys are right this is not the

36:34

school or even three the threat of violence

36:37

it's in the social is

36:40

much company they did fluid and i'm

36:42

in i'm i'm massive

36:44

for my own experiences

36:46

i often feel sometimes this sitting

36:48

straight couples the that is weird dynamic

36:51

where the becomes one all the emotions run

36:53

through and all the kind of organization

36:55

and they maintain the

36:56

that works with all their couple

36:58

friends

36:59

and i think

37:01

that there is something about the about the fact that sometimes

37:04

that sometimes men have recent

37:06

events my daughter i mean exactly this but more simple

37:09

emotional life that makes sense so

37:11

i think it does make sense or i think progress

37:13

as well i mean can only speak about experience

37:16

of being a girl but girl think maybe it's

37:18

more important for girls to sit in or to be

37:20

liked and someone husband

37:22

is there very social guy he's a

37:25

you know i always telling him that he is he's as

37:27

good as a woman i'm tonight's

37:29

him but like but he does not spend all down

37:32

that like i'm in nineteen thousand what's grapes

37:34

and to the live in this constant hub and stream the

37:36

nation and actually i think in a sentence

37:38

puts you but you know about lot of people line

37:41

like if i say huh oh have you heard about the controversy

37:44

of i have a right a case and

37:47

and and i just i know i envy him because

37:49

he lives much simpler life where he only

37:51

knows about people who were actually friends with he doesn't

37:53

have the whole other can and mythology

37:55

the lead other social relationships and parasitic

37:57

relationship that that didn't see

38:00

while the average i'm rising from my experience but that

38:02

would be my my the about

38:04

why girls live in these very tight

38:06

knit groups for end up being very hierarchical

38:09

i'm okay i want to pivot for a moment talk

38:11

about not all your jeans on the internet

38:13

but weird

38:14

on the internet are particularly jordan

38:16

peterson there's a a

38:18

famous interview that you did with jordan peterson

38:20

for you to gq in two thousand and eighteen

38:22

it's now been viewed i believe over fifty five

38:25

million times

38:27

i want to play club here it's this begins

38:29

with you asking jordan peterson about lobsters

38:31

and for anyone who have not read

38:33

this wouldn't peterson can in the reason because

38:36

peterson likes to compare human

38:38

solicitors because he says species

38:40

naturally conform to and and driven by

38:43

satoshi going solo play clipper

38:45

pay monthly from the the lobster

38:48

that it find typically

38:50

the bullet

38:51

right it's just you cannot read across

38:53

from lobsters and what they do

38:55

what humor say handsets were serotonin

38:57

works on lobsters what

38:58

two different way so it's certainly makes

39:00

lumps is more aggressive

39:01

it makes you know what makes the next all relative right

39:04

that one has not right

39:05

that arizona makes human beings were dominant

39:08

but less aggressive

39:09

the only recent makes the more dominant is because they're

39:11

less irritable and they're less defensively aggressive

39:14

that's not bomb us i know my new

39:16

chemistry the going to play neurochemistry

39:19

let's go and do

39:19

either way you for antidepressants on love

39:22

yes they do any make a lot to this been

39:24

defeated in a fight more likely to fight again

39:26

that's not the same mechanism that this

39:28

they met humans the it's not as if those game

39:30

the crest

39:31

as the way the humor the i think you're i'm for more

39:33

fighting intuitive ridiculous degrees fever

39:35

creatures that urinate out of their face

39:37

i think that the fundamental

39:39

issue among i'm knowledgeable

39:42

the animal behaviorists is that

39:44

anthropomorphizes with animals is generally

39:46

the appropriate tactic unless you have

39:48

reason to doubt it

39:49

bruce about jesse will be very glad

39:51

to hear that he is not the only one who you're and else

39:54

you're in a out of his face but this

39:56

it was a very intense interview sometimes

39:58

combative i'm wondering what

40:01

insight you gained into the jordan

40:03

peterson phenomenon after speaking

40:05

with them did you sort of get the appeal after

40:07

this

40:08

i think there's a lot of people who just like

40:10

his incredible certainty am

40:12

and i've just come to realize that that's a that's

40:15

a personality type the personality don't south

40:17

and i shouldn't therefore kind

40:19

of assume that everybody else thinks in the same way

40:22

in do you know i think i think i just

40:24

end up i feel one

40:26

of these i feel good about myself is the idea

40:28

that i think of myself as a free think i met some

40:30

it's really important me and and therefore

40:32

i kind of so very suspicious of anybody

40:34

you can speak dogmatically

40:37

kompany about these kind of things i

40:39

don't was something that really complete idea

40:41

in i didn't me pre say answers i went in

40:43

you and the reddit jordan peterson

40:46

because i don't know i had

40:48

a have like a death wish or something so i'm that

40:50

they weren't she relatively polite tv and

40:53

it with the thing that was came across a lot

40:55

of the time with that they were very earnest

40:58

in the sense of they will people he really cared

41:00

about like living a better life as

41:02

it goes in a kind of earnest level of self improvement

41:05

i think it would be too easy be kind city

41:07

and snarky about right whatever

41:09

form it ended up taking these are people taking ownership

41:11

of their own lives and trying to become a

41:13

better men often so

41:15

it the a kind of made me appreciate us sing

41:17

that is bugged me the since and is

41:20

purely if he went

41:22

on jay reagan cj

41:24

reagan was nice about me that thank you

41:26

thank you japes and said unlike

41:28

has he knew when i was i was varsity level

41:30

player my husband sarcastically

41:33

for my christmas card that i'm

41:35

an and then then

41:37

then said you know that the like the giving you better

41:40

opponents at least and peterson

41:42

said that i was greeted him

41:44

before the interview and the i was animus

41:47

which is a union term so the idea

41:49

that both pete both genders have a bit the other

41:51

gender in them and if you're a woman being animus possess

41:53

means that your my it inside too much

41:56

the for in your aggressive and dominant

41:59

the reason

41:59

the like i was giving him mean

42:02

match a vibes and that game

42:06

ever to budge for jordan peterson under

42:08

two things that really interesting that this is this

42:10

obviously one obviously did

42:11

no fact cycads jordan peterson

42:13

like i've worked as a journalist for some time i don't

42:15

generally stroll in girl like what's up fuck

42:17

wit let's see the insidious

42:19

like that system

42:20

hi graham to diversify well as brave

42:22

as are you don't do that they don't he cited as

42:24

the journalism school for me again no funnily

42:26

enough like i my worries a way that

42:28

i'm just too compensation

42:31

diverse i'm a habit

42:33

but the other thing with what that

42:35

said to me is the actually he didn't think

42:37

it went well and his sons really

42:39

love it right they think he's it really was i am

42:42

doing a project to buy them during the baby

42:44

sit mm so i had to go back to look at the

42:46

clips and an amazing common

42:48

that just made me laugh so much that such and last couple

42:50

of days which is you can see this feminist

42:53

a chess is going up and down breathing internet

42:56

or you can see how rental reasoning sister she's

42:58

breathing and breathing was like really that from getting precise

43:00

for this woman inhaled and exhale

43:02

did during the course of this interview and

43:05

exhaling he had are on the run and

43:07

his sights and you know

43:09

this one's about home and and pc you know non player

43:11

eric to know that sorta stuff and like innate

43:14

oh he raped her she says him

43:16

to the therapy all that stuff the the the fans

43:18

in it love at the beauty com and select university

43:21

li positive in favor of him but

43:24

he and the reagan clip from aiming idea may

43:26

be ever the tiny scintilla of died in

43:28

his mind that he had i think

43:30

you know mano a tool objective i

43:33

think he was kind of grumpy and

43:35

using the miller

43:35

really don't or an inner he's

43:38

being hustled from one thing to another and i

43:40

don't object in i think it's perfectly reasonable

43:42

be grumpy in the second test i wouldn't have wanted mean

43:44

firing ninety minutes the questions about in

43:46

a lobsters and the pay gap

43:48

that me either but

43:50

yeah it's interesting will hit his response to

43:52

it so the this within twenty eighteen and then

43:55

and twenty twenty one he went

43:57

to russia seeking treatment for been

43:59

so into

43:59

then he was put in a medically induced coma for nine

44:02

days you , about this as

44:04

well then afterwards

44:06

he tweeted a link to the article and

44:08

he and he wrote this why do you hate

44:10

me so much helen louis i tried to

44:13

a good man so my hello

44:15

louis why you hate him so much

44:17

he tried to be a good man to us

44:19

really such thing i read that and i

44:21

saw a k that's meets that that

44:23

that's and i just thought you know

44:25

any you know any good place i you and

44:28

i feel very much with him that celebrities been the

44:30

mosque that is eaten the police and

44:33

that he just he very

44:36

early and i rate isn't a is quite

44:38

mean my friend adam rather fed him as

44:40

a geneticist said he

44:42

is evolving into bell and in front of our very

44:44

eyes the selection pressure being attention

44:47

yeah yeah he does he seems to

44:49

me one of those characters who i do think

44:51

that a lot of their the criticism that

44:53

he got the heat that he got was unwarranted

44:55

but he does seem to have

44:58

evolved into a sort of caricature

45:00

he's sort of become the person

45:03

who is critics said he was in the beginning

45:05

and which i find unfortunate

45:07

for him and for those of us who defended him a

45:10

so how would you describe his trajectory over

45:12

the last couple of years to somebody who hasn't been paying attention

45:14

to jordan peterson i think

45:16

he started off as a biblical scholar

45:18

a scholar of mythology met

45:20

says meaning is

45:21

kind of insane book but you know

45:24

ah yes it's like a big textbook

45:26

of everything to do a story in the world

45:28

with own something reflections

45:31

like the bit where he goes to maximum security

45:32

the of young psychology students and mentions

45:35

the no reason he was wearing saw next knee

45:37

high leather boots and a cape

45:40

and like boys have exclusively

45:42

with what you've turned up justice sherlock holmes

45:45

to like all these murderers i'm

45:47

and then this is what guy who m

45:49

he meets he said he says i'm oh that gets left

45:51

alone in the murders also to sign like slightly

45:54

ticking off and he's a bit worried about safety and then

45:56

this other guy clients and then he later finds out

45:58

that this guy had forced to and

46:00

dig their graves before shooting them and

46:03

there's another guy's a huge that acts wound

46:05

all across his chest and chest like it would have killed

46:08

and killed and man like me and

46:10

you're like cases all a bit in

46:13

at psychological on your part why

46:15

married i'm so he had

46:17

always had this kind of odd the

46:19

sharing bits about him am i

46:21

think from the very start he came to prominence opposing

46:24

see sixteen canadian

46:26

bell on gender

46:28

identity was an impressive respect people's pronouns

46:30

i'm not you know i think you may some pretty fair points

46:33

on that in the light of everything that since happened in see

46:35

and canada and elsewhere specifically talking

46:37

about can spell compelled space in this idea

46:39

that you should be forced to

46:41

t summons pronounce

46:43

and i think it's interesting it's it

46:45

is to live

46:46

really rude not to pronouns

46:48

but the question is whether or not that should be raised

46:50

the level of a criminal offense or even civil

46:53

offense i'm say in it then

46:55

at twelve roseville twelve roseville that the core a list

46:58

and in or it's quite sweet like they never

47:00

interrupt kids when the skateboarding and

47:02

passage when of you see one am

47:05

in it and and this is the book that really made him that

47:07

he had two million copies sold and

47:09

even just in the uk i think enough to see

47:11

huge huge huge huge i'm

47:13

and any kind of sick on

47:14

whole

47:16

them and as you say ended up he was a not

47:18

addicted he was a physically dependent on benzodiazepine

47:22

i'm a huge debt which is above because

47:24

he previous even statement had a drug addicts basically

47:26

cannon needed to get in shape up

47:29

and go with the yelling that very blink bootstrappy

47:31

kind of sea sauce but when it happened to him

47:33

it was a physical depend hey i'm

47:36

an innate is kind of he gave he gave

47:38

odd into the to

47:39

the bowls of a new york times we talked to by

47:42

enforced monogamy and then can had to re

47:44

that back when he said that she wanted incentives

47:46

to marriage not like everywhere

47:48

every man in the us get allocated a woman

47:51

that that wasn't he claim what he's talking about at all

47:53

but yeah i think humans using as to briefly

47:56

to send him i think that enforce monogamy is

47:58

actually of that common term sociology

48:00

that doesn't translate well the layperson

48:03

yeah but i would there were lots of things like that i think

48:05

where he danced

48:08

, some things and

48:10

people read more into it than was there

48:12

or maybe he didn't maybe wasn't clear enough

48:14

what the limits what

48:15

this proposing or what what his thieves

48:17

were

48:19

i need to do with have this is a slight enthusiasm

48:21

strong men which culminated a very

48:23

that cool mit which is even a would have a private

48:26

meeting with a to all

48:27

and photographed with him and

48:29

you're all been straightforwardly

48:31

anti lgbt you know has has

48:34

in a is is a very strong

48:36

nato list you know has his anti race

48:38

mixing

48:40

yeah he's i i want i don't more immigrants

48:42

i want more hungarians you know he is

48:44

he believes that you europe

48:46

, she should blewitt see

48:49

this see this isn't one miss and it

48:51

tastes lead author retiring

48:53

these retiring these very strongly his closed and nice

48:55

but independent newspapers and journalism and hungry

48:58

like somebody is

49:00

peterson who really is animated by

49:02

perhaps him by the he totalitarianism

49:05

to not see to tell it's when i'm hearing the

49:07

face because the guy was saying the same anti white

49:09

things that he was was a big intellectual

49:11

swing miss them for me

49:13

you're absolutely in some of his as personal

49:16

like heard him on i believe on joe rogan he

49:18

said that

49:18

the great

49:20

the tables into battle site of cider vinegar

49:22

and and and literally didn't sleep for a month no

49:24

sleep for a month when he says that like that it's

49:26

hard to even believe well

49:28

that's if it weren't mister deeds

49:30

maybe get liability conspiratorial

49:32

me

49:32

it's one of these i think is always been fascinating

49:34

about in himself as automation list

49:36

and in that video within with me

49:39

know i was the prime minister i was the silly

49:41

the trying to make these blank slate arguments

49:43

that don't in own unfortunately size doesn't

49:46

hold up whatever that he has got

49:48

a strong it recent bass who was christianity

49:50

in religious faith which by definition can't be

49:52

proved and will sit what i would call whoop

49:55

the lover of the woods dream

49:57

dream interpret interpretations and

49:59

ninety six the civically not possible to

50:01

be awake for as long as he claims to have been awake

50:03

and he says it was sulfites that that did

50:06

it and then in a his daughter is now with

50:08

daughter pivoted being a wellness influencer

50:10

then they went to serbia written it

50:12

void cable sanctions and coffee which which

50:16

is and not or something or something advise anyone

50:18

states of sixty as his lungs when a pretty weak

50:20

state from the coma

50:22

and she's not pivoted again and has become

50:24

a trent lott yeah i tried why so a seamless

50:26

cutting lots of a lot of meat for her husband

50:29

and then they only eat this carnival

50:32

diet say it's been really it's it hit

50:34

that's why i think he says so fascinated people

50:36

his eat and i said this i'm an interview or can't

50:38

fit it all together like some

50:41

like sam harris you know there's a coherence everything

50:44

that suitable hangs together but peterson

50:46

is like this hermit crabs it's scope it's kind

50:48

of awkwardly butting up next reach and

50:51

when from the reasons that he he i think he said

50:53

of so fascinating as and and so many people because

50:55

you can like one bit of him and

50:57

the other people don't see that you know when i went

51:00

to see him and him write this and that the atlantic article when

51:02

article went to see him speak in long island the

51:04

first was something

51:06

was something my get my baby to sleep it

51:09

wasn't like what's the future the white race or

51:11

in a doll women's ickes lever the me it

51:13

was like basically like help

51:15

i'm so tired make my life

51:17

better an and for those people

51:19

imagine all the kind of

51:21

media chit about him completely goes

51:23

over the head and they just

51:24

from the books which i am mint lay

51:26

quite a sweet and

51:29

meaning

51:30

land against yeah and simple as well

51:32

i i saw him speak a couple times and

51:35

might the impression that impression walked away with is that he's

51:37

basically recherche getting regurgitating psychology

51:40

to line up to an audience that doesn't recognizes

51:42

there were three mean the thing is each street like

51:44

all people to get annoying get discourage he strayed far

51:47

beyond his own competent so the lecture

51:49

i to be sunday to keep up flat screen tv

51:51

the my there was a cheap and then cheap said i to

51:53

talk now yeah you're right on i packed

51:55

up and at this point and

51:58

what he was actually gonna talk about was a hammer

51:59

at each other and they will high status

52:02

and you realize what i was is good too fat t

52:04

v this a rollercoaster quite a rollercoaster

52:07

we're going on here

52:08

the worst the big

52:10

that was he had dave ribbon introduce

52:12

him and they really made ever do a

52:14

singer on t a whole

52:16

the doors realize my fire

52:18

they've been doing this as he then said come on baby

52:21

like a fire and then he gets see

52:23

you can shout fire in a crowded theatre

52:26

which may be the deadliest dad joke

52:28

that i have ever heard

52:31

one ugly

52:34

i like sandwich like about your new projects

52:36

are you bbc radio documentary the truth

52:39

of social justice was playing clip from introduction

52:42

the phrase you hear a lot online

52:44

focus is a religion

52:50

it's not intended

52:51

the compliment

52:57

when people say that they're arguing

52:59

that political

53:00

movement particularly on the left

53:02

can be highest and preach she's obsessed

53:05

with hunting down harrison

53:08

but in this program

53:10

i want to take the id say

53:11

a

53:13

politics the new religion

53:16

ah modern social justice activists

53:18

release the new puritans is

53:21

social media [unk] heretics and i

53:24

metaphorically burned at the stake

53:27

the lots of the culture

53:29

wars for once have a better phrase is

53:32

that almost religious

53:34

fundamentalists favour to the ten

53:36

of the debate when

53:39

people are being chased of their jobs and

53:42

killer read in the starts in public for weddings

53:44

to be seen as minor transgressions all

53:46

of this is very galileo's

53:48

inquisitors

53:51

i was thinking about that marks quite that religion

53:53

is the opium as the people

53:56

i think what we've got now is politics is the

53:58

amphetamines of the people

54:01

so allen the promise of the documentary is

54:03

basically

54:04

you're asking the question is social justice

54:06

or book nuns and their religion or perhaps

54:08

were broadly has it replaced religion

54:10

in society and this is something i've wondered

54:12

a lot and as and i was an atheist

54:15

or barely stuff

54:16

in predators in my entire life

54:18

although it did take him he again at

54:20

a cursory my wife last pricey

54:23

you're going to hell her i but sense concerning

54:26

the , of the and the and

54:28

was entirely and spat isolated not was happening

54:30

at all so i'm surprised

54:33

to find that i'm not religious at all i've been

54:35

i've i've

54:36

no spiritual and clinicians i don't even really

54:38

believe in the soul and i'm surprised to find

54:40

that in recent years

54:43

sometimes saying that the decline of religion

54:45

may actually have some negative consequences

54:47

because for most of my life i would have thought

54:49

of you know a a secular society

54:52

is a better society you

54:54

were raised in the church of england but left the during college

54:57

and i wonder if you if you've been thinking

54:59

the same thing could we use a little more in

55:01

society it's even more

55:03

ah of full bore than that i was

55:05

raised as a catholic had

55:07

leg yeah my dad is dad in the

55:09

catholic church the he's the reverend mr lewis

55:12

and my mum well our religious education

55:14

teacher any chris it minister they would just like

55:16

they believed a little bit in god they were like we

55:19

believe and lot in god we will put

55:21

on dresses and give sermons to tell you about

55:23

it

55:23

i'm sure there in the documentary which

55:25

is i'd let me to say if you ever think by or been

55:27

would be pretty nice to make a pocus with my parents don't

55:30

do it say , going

55:32

on honey will not be so

55:34

did that is amazing and senate third and curls

55:36

your parents into things they

55:39

will to start telling your produce aransas

55:42

and you it's often come on come on as his sentiments

55:45

said just it said of how about nights

55:47

ago

55:48

jordan peterson

55:49

what nine name is enough sleep lamb

55:51

bless him let him have his he was tired so

55:54

tired and does tend up the only photos

55:56

and was berated by me for minutes

55:59

and my dad

55:59

not have that let me tell i'm

56:02

so yeah so i wanted to you know

56:04

cause i think it's often said really glibly right you know

56:06

on weaknesses this new religion and

56:09

i thought and police it though unlike

56:11

let's say that question really seriously

56:14

and i think i'm in exactly the same place as he

56:16

that see you and i've been the same age would have come up that the

56:18

same time in that the all kind of tea

56:21

twenty something rebellion coincided with when

56:23

new atheists for any back when christopher right

56:26

god isn't great richard dawkins the quarterly and

56:29

so that was like along with thing gosh that

56:31

with kind of that acceptable palette of rebellion

56:33

it was the it was in the equivalent

56:36

of the early two thousand and late nineties

56:38

exactly and that was the and and know i

56:41

know it was can't

56:42

cultural as well particular in america where

56:44

you've never had an openly atheist

56:47

president and i'm not sure you could win the presidency

56:49

if you were openly atheist in

56:51

even to go truth so to pretended he d

56:53

who got was in the he deferred to some idea of a

56:55

kind of high a big them

56:56

i'm convinced that barack obama was

56:58

lying when he said that believe he believes in god to

57:01

everything

57:01

barack obama like demographically

57:03

and intellectually to says to me to

57:05

secretly listens to sam harris poll costs

57:08

and out

57:08

but you can't be was he couldn't admit it and

57:12

so

57:13

i had the same thing and particularly

57:15

at you know growing up in the nineties the right

57:17

through big issue i thought it was pretty appalling

57:20

that the catholic church with against gay rights

57:22

and gay marriage and didn't

57:24

still doesn't have women priests the idea that women

57:26

on able to lead been letter

57:29

to even as a as an actor and the parish women

57:31

were doing all will i would call the grunt work in

57:33

the sort of flower arranging organizing stuff

57:35

way that it was assumed explicitly mail

57:37

hierarchy i'm saying

57:39

and that's why i kind of

57:41

the left the

57:43

basically that i didn't believe in god for

57:45

as

57:46

yeah i'm not really a bar in the church of england

57:48

certainly which may say like does sort of tom

57:51

and and liked singing and if you believe

57:53

in god it's kind of about like the like the do

57:56

you actually like it's my see

57:57

the food ah an

57:59

i only had just

58:01

having a semi warm on a sunday nights

58:03

m i mean i i think that is a

58:06

major like when i say i think that we could use

58:08

more realism and society i'm not really

58:10

saying that think need a more

58:12

belief in a higher power that i frankly exist

58:15

what i'm saying is that we need more we

58:17

need a place to go and something to feel

58:19

bonded to other people yeah

58:21

and it kind of the bowling alone thesis about the

58:24

degradation kind of communities and institutions

58:26

but i do think in way that the higher power kinda

58:29

helps and it's interesting to me the alcoholics

58:31

anonymous is run

58:32

the had of explicitly religious framework

58:35

because it's a by accepting your own

58:37

our and

58:39

that i think that if if you don't differ

58:41

to the higher power then so to who is

58:43

a higher power it is it in fact you

58:45

i'm

58:47

that i think the main problem is that it's

58:49

that that kind of level of religious organizations

58:51

the go away even if religion doesn't and

58:54

i find it just goes was it again if you know

58:55

the crisis at twenty years ago to talk to bats

58:58

hear the opium in masses and religion

59:00

causing these wars and

59:02

whatever but all of this is true all

59:04

of which is completely turned sectarianism

59:06

is it's besieged priced at recess

59:09

religion the tribalism but it turns out you can

59:11

have these things

59:11

that's between like the knitters in the crochet as

59:14

you don't need to have it between the catholics and protestants

59:16

know the nine

59:16

the people can find divide themselves

59:19

in way

59:19

creighton a creep a

59:22

pretty much anything absolutely

59:24

mean i think that in the us especially having

59:26

a two party system that's what politics are

59:28

right and to some extent

59:31

i didn't want to seem to be some the i'd i wonder if we'll ever

59:33

get away from but am yeah

59:36

and i will also wonderful like the that i really

59:38

like we talked to rabbi am talking

59:40

about judaism rabbi and lords

59:42

and a class in the his of reform rabbi and

59:44

she said something i didn't know before which is it's

59:46

one of the that i is is

59:49

you've never allowed to study alone he have to set

59:51

a impasse it's always it's

59:53

always think this means they

59:55

sky think this means and then you have to kind of

59:57

come to terms with it and

59:59

the the i

59:59

the his head that you know if

1:00:02

i don't like someone i still have to go to their morning

1:00:04

prayers i sub to bring him gifts they i'm

1:00:06

have a i still have to deny

1:00:09

to the funeral for somebody i find very

1:00:11

annoying i'm that level of sense

1:00:13

of i have obligation to everybody

1:00:15

even if i personally don't like them is

1:00:18

something i just don't think

1:00:19

that culture is replicated very well rights

1:00:21

know i think it's the opposite of the yeah right

1:00:24

people who agree with me ah righteous

1:00:26

and everything they do is righteous and i should defend

1:00:29

everything that they day because of the righteous ones

1:00:31

and people the were pays to me i should

1:00:33

have separate everything they in the was possible face okay

1:00:35

so in order to answer question social

1:00:38

does as a religion is be to a bunch of different

1:00:40

people including john mcwhorter i'm

1:00:42

sure familiar to our audience here and

1:00:44

you also talk to a guy named a tunnel i'm i'm pronouncing

1:00:46

they quickly como la de

1:00:49

can you introduce a minimal player will places

1:00:52

they want to reply to there is camilla i will ah day

1:00:54

he writes the unheard and is currently writing a book

1:00:56

about how britain is imported culture

1:00:58

wars but he's written some really interesting stuff

1:01:00

about black africans religion

1:01:02

coming

1:01:04

the uk and how important that is

1:01:06

you more of people describing their

1:01:08

payments as not as wrong but evil

1:01:10

because i feel like that's something that press in

1:01:13

, last twenty of an adult for

1:01:15

me i feel like i've i've seen it more again

1:01:18

i don't have as to social media by think that's

1:01:20

definitely true you see that on

1:01:22

dates else as well as a source

1:01:25

on certain dates and ops people say

1:01:27

don't message say don't you're tory for

1:01:30

example efforts by think that's another

1:01:32

way in which politics political

1:01:34

beliefs is see

1:01:36

pin and see people's personal

1:01:39

lives and people's very moral

1:01:41

fiber like i told

1:01:43

them he was i'm just impressed that young people these

1:01:45

days or so cheesy but what

1:01:47

he's describing is a real phenomenon over

1:01:51

the past fifty years polling by pew

1:01:53

research shows that americans have become

1:01:55

much more relaxed

1:01:56

about the children dating someone from another race

1:01:59

the

1:01:59

the same time they become much less

1:02:02

relaxed about the children dating across

1:02:04

political lines a political

1:02:06

beliefs have become much more important reflection

1:02:08

of our characters

1:02:09

britain to

1:02:13

testify post

1:02:13

i spoke to someone who is both

1:02:16

a pride christian and happy

1:02:18

to since defined as work

1:02:23

your religion a new activism come from the

1:02:25

same place inside you what they indivisible

1:02:28

i would say so for making and i do struggle

1:02:30

with the idea of me like sunday it's and someone

1:02:33

else like my partner's not christian

1:02:35

but classic new wave very

1:02:37

at the same unami my best friends muslim

1:02:40

on muslim wouldn't want six hundred think about how

1:02:42

to like can that him to christianity

1:02:44

to christianity that's like violence really

1:02:46

this is victoria ten editor

1:02:48

of an anthology called young woke interesting

1:02:51

which argues that the church needs to become

1:02:53

increasingly awake to injustices

1:02:55

in british society what about

1:02:58

if he was conservative writer could you

1:03:00

dated conservative voters absolutely

1:03:02

not so

1:03:04

easy yes but conservatives know why

1:03:06

why why why you convert

1:03:08

the conservative for think it's because of who impacts

1:03:10

of the people for me like i can see

1:03:12

that like pessimism is like a false gods

1:03:15

that worship money they were shit success

1:03:17

i see that like why i'm here to fight

1:03:20

against like whether you're got looks

1:03:22

exactly the same as my god i know i don't know the

1:03:24

answer to this question but i do

1:03:26

know what the answers are stop people from

1:03:28

suffering and to make the more

1:03:30

equitable place which are thing is what the gospel

1:03:32

is calling us today so it's the

1:03:34

young woman there who says that she can

1:03:36

the tory i know you're married but i'm curious

1:03:38

because you did it twice i have dated a tory

1:03:41

miley university say

1:03:44

, tory cancer he sent me run for

1:03:47

election yeah that

1:03:49

there was that there thing during labour

1:03:52

ship labour leadership election that led to jeremy

1:03:54

corbyn way one of the candidates for said to had

1:03:56

a t shirt with had never kissed a tory which

1:03:58

i just thought was

1:03:59

i'm a nice i know only that

1:04:02

i i get really cannot web

1:04:04

the champ was sort of the purity politics

1:04:06

as taking pride and fact that you don't

1:04:10

anybody or would never associate with somebody

1:04:12

with different political views we thought a lot of that

1:04:14

particularly on facebook i think after the trump

1:04:16

election i saw a lot of people that i really

1:04:18

deeply care about and and respect saying

1:04:21

you know if you're a trump supporter

1:04:23

unfriend me now things like that which

1:04:25

that the time in two thousand two thousand

1:04:28

sort of made sense to me but now i see it is incredibly

1:04:31

destructive and from the reason that are and

1:04:33

of these there's a predicament that renounce

1:04:36

you did dated twenty four years i haven't met

1:04:38

that many okay let's say i would

1:04:41

, a boris johnson san i mean i have

1:04:43

i got friends who have boris

1:04:45

johnson fans and yeah

1:04:48

and so i thirteen it would be the impossible

1:04:51

i think in a call papas paradox a tolerance

1:04:53

is kind of replicable here right which is what are the limits

1:04:55

of your tolerance and the me somebody fundamentally

1:04:58

believe in democracy that's probably why my

1:05:00

line ah on basis we

1:05:03

know when i have that we don't have any

1:05:05

irina in which to disagree if it were

1:05:07

living under totalitarian system are vanessa think the same

1:05:09

i yeah i'm i'm like

1:05:12

a duck a day at the lib dem like a day

1:05:14

at scottish nationalists tickets they

1:05:16

an lcd like a day

1:05:18

anderson find a some naming

1:05:20

pretty pickpocket i was sent to slip in one

1:05:22

that it was this ally that iran

1:05:24

has i would notice to , someone

1:05:26

from the green stockings yeah that would be fine your

1:05:30

, might not see lois know

1:05:32

i probably have to clear it with him assistant

1:05:34

so this is something that we a c

1:05:37

and quite often in the us the sense

1:05:39

that people have different political beliefs

1:05:41

than us are just wrongs they're evil

1:05:44

or the lances wrong they're bad and of their bad

1:05:46

or evil is this true in the uk

1:05:48

as well i think it's less because

1:05:50

the political spent

1:05:51

stream is narrower sales

1:05:54

there are people in the tory party

1:05:56

and you know the left of the party

1:05:58

in right of the labour party his visa

1:05:59

that are a park and

1:06:03

i just think the span in the us is so

1:06:05

much wider like what really you know if you're gonna

1:06:07

bring together of

1:06:09

so of out share left

1:06:11

wing you know an

1:06:13

identity politics fan and somebody

1:06:16

he sort of but borderline white nationalist

1:06:19

that just don't get what what are the things that they can

1:06:21

a bond over it's can be quite hot or maybe

1:06:23

maybe sports but the thing that came out

1:06:26

and this is more showing the polling of america is

1:06:28

this a generation to ago

1:06:30

it was perfectly that

1:06:32

of people would say to pollsters which is already

1:06:34

have high bar at because you wouldn't want to make themselves that bad

1:06:36

if and pulses quiet a high

1:06:38

percentage said they was uneasy about the

1:06:40

kids dating i'm one another race and

1:06:43

bread another religion presumably some

1:06:46

cases and know that has really diminished

1:06:48

people are just fairy tale about that now but

1:06:51

what has gone up in the same

1:06:53

time is cross party dating

1:06:55

so democrat parents effect it brings

1:06:57

home we like someone in america hat a

1:07:00

gonna fail the way that a nice

1:07:02

white liberal couple in the fifties would have

1:07:04

been in out a bit alienated

1:07:06

by that they're due to bring a black man and

1:07:09

say the positions of essentially swapped one

1:07:11

swapped group is but one version of creating of creating

1:07:13

is kind of replace the other

1:07:15

oh absolutely i mean

1:07:16

bringing home a woman with not

1:07:18

make my parents bat an eye but if i brought home a

1:07:20

woman in a maggot hat that then

1:07:22

have issues right which is really into

1:07:25

the when i to to alex my was a

1:07:27

non binary minister in that reformed

1:07:29

church and i said is it to be which

1:07:32

was haunted come out as a christian or non

1:07:34

binary and they me you know

1:07:36

it was months

1:07:36

hi

1:07:37

people with aids them it harder to be christian and

1:07:39

an lgbt space and is to be lgbt

1:07:42

a christian space boom which is

1:07:44

kind of i have to say not an enormously good

1:07:46

reflection on the lgbt movement right the actually

1:07:49

christian on it's own apps and anything else

1:07:52

is enough to meet you go

1:07:53

that would be would like one of those people that it was

1:07:55

an interesting are facing the fact that to be lgbt

1:07:58

i remembered lgbt

1:07:59

is no seen as being inherently less weighing

1:08:02

right whereas a lot of the of that movement

1:08:05

city the gay rights movement was about

1:08:07

right powerful men beer

1:08:11

and the fact that because and think this is by partly

1:08:13

about the some nice in the last couple years of

1:08:15

the movement is because being able to do something

1:08:18

that you booked born you have this about

1:08:21

where is that non binary republican and

1:08:23

it is now something is my more aligned with

1:08:25

a certain kind of that values and and lifestyle

1:08:28

than it was that fifty

1:08:30

six years ago oh absolutely it

1:08:32

which is that as you mention it sort of ironic because

1:08:35

the a big gay rights bottles and my

1:08:38

lifetime things like gay marriage are actually

1:08:40

conservative values yeah i think

1:08:42

it's on the reasons that they eventually had a

1:08:44

, level of success and it's also one of the things

1:08:46

i think about with to trans movement now is

1:08:48

that the or the arguments and things like self id

1:08:50

have camouflaged how far we've

1:08:53

come come there certain things like

1:08:55

the example of deceiving people's preferred pronouns

1:08:57

even if those are whether there's a he or she went bad

1:08:59

day at me and

1:09:01

, just collectively gwen seems

1:09:04

like a reasonable request us yeah people speed

1:09:06

i'd be com what if they want and the same that we let people

1:09:08

change their names they get married or whatever

1:09:10

it might be i'm not just that have happened

1:09:13

and no one really forsett and

1:09:15

so they're all they're happened big strides

1:09:18

in in language an approach that just

1:09:20

come on notice really because they weren't contested

1:09:22

in the same way okay well

1:09:24

or at a re at the risk of spoiling

1:09:27

your documentary can you give us a yes or no

1:09:29

answer is social justice the religion

1:09:31

i think it is yes i'm i think it has replaced

1:09:34

a both the benefits

1:09:36

of religion for some people in the sense of that tribalism

1:09:39

looking for heretics the narcissism small differences

1:09:41

sectarianism but it was the good bits

1:09:44

and not just the kind of collectivism in the

1:09:46

sense of belonging in a sense of meaning

1:09:48

and purpose in life but also i'm

1:09:51

the same thing it's a one of the things tommy

1:09:53

was it was about the idea of being trump rallies

1:09:56

or march you know those

1:09:58

are places where you can have a kind of tons and dental

1:10:00

experience i'm i think it's what

1:10:03

dot com called collective effervescence

1:10:05

right this idea that there were some emotions you can only

1:10:07

access is part of a group you feel kind of

1:10:09

deeply connected to the universe and people injury

1:10:11

when you all chanting like either lock

1:10:13

her up poor you know i'm trans

1:10:15

lives matter is that is it the

1:10:18

you can only access those emotions through now

1:10:20

politics and they would have once been accessed through

1:10:22

religion

1:10:23

building or how how can people here

1:10:26

find on the bbc website in the bbc sends

1:10:28

out from sixteenth of august i will

1:10:30

it's a great documentary i quite enjoyed it

1:10:32

and everybody give the lesson helen lose thank

1:10:34

you so much for joining us not reporter

1:10:36

thank you for having me alright, a little housekeeping

1:10:39

before we leave you can contact

1:10:41

us at blocked and reported at gmail.com?

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a a month, you get three extra episodes

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of the show every month, we recorded

1:11:00

one this week on a

1:11:03

, has something to do with lockheed

1:11:06

martin in twitter and a non

1:11:08

binary person who or may not

1:11:10

exist just check it out blocked

1:11:12

and reported dot org your support

1:11:14

really it makes a difference and is the reason

1:11:16

can keep show as

1:11:19

always our show is produced without by tracing

1:11:21

le grange thank you trace this

1:11:24

has been blocked and reported i'm katie

1:11:26

herzog and remember jesse