0:11

5

0:12

seconds

0:14

of silence for her majesty the queen i

0:15

i do not want to butcher

0:22

is

0:22

it going be a a long and complicated episode

0:24

katie? i'm getting explain something see

0:26

you and one of the things i've played by the and

0:29

is why we to sit five seconds of silence for the queen

0:31

we had a huge argument about whether or not we

0:33

should actually do this item vociferously

0:35

argued against five seconds of silence on the

0:37

podcast is better if i could go jersey

0:39

we we

0:41

it is what forever listen you know if terms of how

0:43

difficult your to work with i was ice kitty

0:46

kitty off my to let's just do this and then

0:48

i'll explain and then you like we i think

0:50

we did fifty different teams were discussed

0:52

it was like playing required day with a two year olds

0:55

to daddy hers i stayed quiet for five seconds

0:57

as far as people do not

0:59

want to hear silence on a podcast those

1:01

like death of again

1:02

like soon as it's like jazz

1:05

it's the words we don't

1:06

there are a we vegan dead at you guys your way

1:08

is is better make sense and the

1:10

well she does get all the bullshit all the way katie what does the name of

1:12

this increasingly cryptic podcast

1:14

this is live in important and i'm caterers

1:16

and i'm jesse singal katie what

1:18

did you know about couples

1:21

twitch yesterday kiwi

1:23

farms the ulster volunteer force the

1:25

irish republican army and cloud flair

1:27

i am pleased to say and all of these

1:29

were you could be speaking

1:30

to me what devalued i well so they yeah

1:33

this is gonna be completed one so for the last month

1:35

or so has site as sees the imagination

1:37

of twitter and the journalists to steal

1:40

other story ideas from

1:41

the journal and do that know

1:43

never not as other journalists

1:46

yes we would never talk about a twitter controversy

1:48

anyway that's not real journalism

1:50

the has died that store journalists imagination

1:53

is has said drop kiwi farms

1:55

stadia take it you have some knowledge of this

1:57

hashtag

1:58

i do i have seen a city

2:00

the reforms as come up before this podcast

2:02

it's a very hot button subject

2:05

where if you say the wrong thing people get mad

2:07

at you on twitter so i did as due to swim

2:09

what it is to our audience

2:10

he'll kiwi farms is a is basically

2:13

a series of message words it is

2:15

like virally it is sort

2:17

of difficult to explain like get an anti

2:20

machine and go back to ah

2:22

i don't know ninety know ninety and

2:25

picture a website that sort of what it looks like

2:27

i've always found it difficult to navigate it's

2:29

, collection of the

2:32

gossip rumors

2:34

often times proven correct

2:37

and the users of kiwi firearms there

2:40

are frequently i think

2:43

miss labeled as as

2:45

, right wingers as reactionaries

2:48

because they often times their targets

2:51

will be for instance trans people are

2:53

other like hyper online leftist but

2:56

they really are an equal like they're equal opportunity

2:59

haters and there's some

3:01

like their can definitely be some bad

3:03

shit on kiwi farms i know a woman

3:06

someone i used to be friends with who

3:08

was doc on kiwi farms and the reason

3:10

she was dogs is because she was married

3:13

to a dude that kiwi farms hated in

3:15

this case i will say the guy she

3:17

was married to was a

3:19

canadian oh ooh yeah

3:22

he was a canadian white nationalist like an actual

3:24

white nationalist and she was like and credit and she's

3:26

like a trans activists incredibly

3:29

woke she's not transfer solved but he's long

3:31

been involved in the entrance activism

3:33

i think i think he's he's sort of unveiled

3:36

himself as a white nationalist very the course of their wedding

3:38

or the course their marriage but in this

3:40

no matter what

3:42

else has any reason

3:44

yeah yeah but that

3:46

so in that case their target of

3:48

their target was this like legit white

3:50

nationalist but she also

3:53

they don't like they dogs for house for summaries and then i

3:55

and i saw myself so there are there are definitely

3:57

some like some like some people

3:59

who

3:59

call up in and kiwi farms bullshit

4:02

ah button that said it

4:04

is also a place easy go to to

4:07

get

4:08

really pretty accurate

4:10

hurts iron other people

4:12

especially your enemies that

4:15

say is that

4:17

yeah so a quibble with a few things just

4:19

because i've had to me and mine this site and last

4:21

couple of days to prepare for the so that story

4:23

you told of a trans activists

4:25

being docs because her husband the white

4:27

nationalist was a

4:28

i should say she's trans herself she is a

4:30

daughter

4:31

it is i target is l am sorry

4:33

proteins activists

4:35

these guys love to

4:37

make fun of people they find ridiculous

4:39

on the internet and locales they

4:42

call them both out laugh out loud taos

4:44

their whole eat those is you can milk

4:46

them by just kept watching them are

4:48

and observing them and ridiculing them and the ridicule

4:51

times in the argo of like places like fortune

4:54

and the darker corners of something awful it's this

4:56

riddled with slurs the slurs

4:58

offered

4:59

in something awful is

5:00

very famous very influential

5:03

internet forum that lights a

5:05

sewage amount of internet culture flowed out

5:07

of something awful it out

5:09

for days will it no longer exists

5:10

yeah if you go to as dot me the last post was

5:13

july fourth twenty twenty there's all

5:15

this back story involving the sounder

5:17

and i knew growing

5:19

up as like the robin just like post comedy

5:21

suffer the front page with are all these forums i weren't

5:24

and were a lot of the

5:26

name internet celebrities in like weird

5:29

twitter spaces came out of the something awful

5:31

fox anyway kiwi , that you go

5:33

there it is just these forums

5:35

making fun of people really viciously

5:38

there's also i just normal i sports and politics and

5:40

discussing far as well like the main reason anyone knows

5:42

what kiwi farms is is they have

5:44

these threads devoted to log house

5:47

that are solely devoted to making fun of

5:49

their every move and like you

5:51

said there's also dot c involved they will post

5:53

their personal information post photos of their houses

5:55

try to figure out where they live do the same thing

5:57

it's are to their family members

6:00

it was a pretty shocking and alarming place

6:02

especially for not used to the way you

6:04

know that that four chan lingo as

6:07

you also said once in awhile

6:09

they target people who should have dirt

6:12

dug up on them a you can question their

6:14

tactics that sort of what this episodes can be about but

6:16

the using only once in awhile people

6:18

the people they target should have

6:20

yeah to do they help like a long

6:22

threads on mentally ill internet

6:24

micro celebrities whose only

6:26

like harm they've done is posting weird

6:28

said the twitter this whole thing him out of obsessive

6:31

really died in christian weston chandler some

6:33

now i guess christine weston chandler

6:36

is it possible? you just need good it it

6:38

can be farmers was born out of an obsession

6:41

with tracking, this like very weird

6:43

mentally ill guy who did guy

6:45

sorry,

6:50

that one lady

6:50

the boy was it was born

6:53

out of the folks who track that one that i

6:55

and i think yeah yeah and

6:57

he's be a this lady she's being

6:59

she's on trial right now ray

7:02

owner know

7:03

i don't wanna say you

7:06

you say what she the tomb raider

7:07

her mother this is a trans woman

7:09

i think and i think probably like like

7:12

pretty disabled disease

7:13

the really to serve person who the photon kiwi

7:15

farms have like tracked and

7:17

ridiculed for year jesus wheels they were some

7:19

the folks who tried to the mix and i'm also claimed

7:22

ribs or editors legitimate

7:24

debate over the translating this case i will use

7:26

it when must address they all follow her but like there's

7:28

some debate over the up at his lights this is sort of the

7:30

side of and kiwi farms as as like the earth's

7:32

internet celebrity that gave rise to all of us

7:34

so i think a

7:36

small number of the people they post

7:38

information about and dig up dirt on deserve

7:41

it and i'll get to that but there's a huge

7:43

amount of why

7:45

do you have a thousand threads on this micro

7:47

celebrity on twitter so

7:50

that's what kiwi farms is it is not a friendly

7:52

place it's very toxic but especially

7:56

if you're somebody who writes

7:58

or talks about it

7:59

the to issue a correction yup christian

8:02

has is not being

8:04

tried for rape

8:07

this person as being tried for felony

8:09

but she she was

8:11

the mom was disabled

8:13

yeah like an elderly elderly

8:15

demented

8:15

yeah

8:18

that's really the best place to start if you want a

8:20

kiwi farms are you a d the reason

8:22

normal people and up there i say does if they're interested

8:24

in light some weird twitter

8:27

or instagram influence or or micro influence

8:29

or there's a lot of people were few enter the user

8:31

name you will find no information on

8:33

them except twitter and

8:35

kiwi farms so t reforms in his

8:38

this information then

8:40

to be pretty accurate jerseys

8:42

that your

8:42

yes and now we're going to get into that

8:44

you are said yes ah

8:47

because up most of what to do is just or lot

8:49

for what they do they just post people screenshots

8:51

i didn't one thing they don't do as like made

8:53

up screenshots or or make up utterances

8:56

states there the study

8:58

is an obsessive about like documenting

9:00

everything and archiving everything sometimes

9:02

they spread false information and all on square me contacts

9:05

for that i'm in approximately

9:07

eight hours when we get to the second half as far as

9:09

i'm so simple guess

9:12

ah this

9:14

story of kiwi firearms centers around castles

9:17

shuffles , legal name is clarissa a d

9:20

she's open about that is a trans politics

9:22

streamer on twitch who is very

9:25

, will talk about

9:27

how am i to assume but what matters

9:29

for our purposes is that on august fifth she

9:31

was swatted at her home in london

9:33

ontario city what swatting

9:35

that is when somebody calls in

9:37

a false grad or something like

9:39

that to the police or there's a hostage

9:41

situation at this house or something like

9:43

that anna and the police

9:45

like a swat team will show up in and you

9:48

know

9:48

i suppose like i'd say probably to i don't know do

9:50

they knock on the door do they just like

9:52

down and or something like that well

9:54

that's what you say we'll get to that who get

9:56

to that someone posing as

9:59

couples

9:59

good how are couples rather than surrender she goes my

10:02

temples posing , are sent a really

10:04

juvenile email to bunch of local politicians

10:06

in london ontario claiming she had

10:08

killed her mother and was gonna go on a mass

10:11

rampage to insist gender people it's

10:13

a ridiculous email it's crazy this alpha that

10:15

and alpha that a pretty shitty law enforcement

10:17

arm

10:18

this did happen and careful since an email

10:21

there's no reason to believe couples have the email

10:23

herself know about has happened the past

10:25

people sit around swat aids and and harassment

10:27

but not not here it's apparently someone

10:29

else with a similar name might sir a d r

10:32

an older man somewhere else was also swatted luckily

10:34

no i'm sorry so couples

10:38

that have vargas with august ninth

10:40

shuffles post the you tube video titled

10:42

my life is in danger i need your help the

10:44

first thing she says in the video is as she

10:46

was woken up to an assault rifle interface

10:49

which is interface scary situation that's what is wait

10:51

up and there's and assault rifle in her face

10:53

i don't you can why you would be would like wake

10:55

up before the the gun is in your face

10:57

we'll get

10:58

every fiber

11:00

apple's are taken into custody she says she's dead

11:02

name that is the cops use her damn for before citizens

11:05

and they take all her electronic equipment and hold

11:07

onto it for awhile am a pillow a cloning

11:10

some of it took to sort of electronically search

11:12

her so this you

11:14

to veto see posts my

11:16

why didn't they don't need your help is accompanied by

11:18

a fundraising appeal on goes on me

11:20

then what the phone

11:21

those are fun

11:22

stay with me forget to that's

11:27

temples , launches this campaign to get the

11:29

site that she believes is responsible kiwi

11:31

farms taken offline see really

11:33

goes to war against them there's a lot of tweets

11:35

various other activists and journalists picked up

11:38

on the cause and again strachan it

11:40

isn't hard to know who to root for haircut

11:42

on the one hand you have hand trans

11:44

twitch streamer who's an outspoken progressive

11:47

and who was terrorized by having assault rifles

11:49

and interface and the other you have

11:51

according to basically ambulance have bunch

11:53

of like far right mouth breathing terrorists

11:56

they're referred to as a terrorists web sites

11:58

who despise chance to four and six solely

12:01

to drive them to despair and suicides

12:03

they call them trend they

12:05

call them it's routinely yeah the kiwi

12:07

farms parlance tunes are that's

12:10

like the slur as with the sars a derogatory

12:12

names they use of civic it's kiss daves

12:14

used to refer to someone including

12:17

couples who they think is like a transfer

12:19

clout in couple of cases are really ridiculous

12:22

accusations has she's open about

12:24

the fact that she had light surgery at a young age so

12:26

if he's chasing cloud she's doing so in

12:28

a very expensive ,

12:30

intensive were be us troops are what they

12:32

call what they view as

12:34

trade are clouds has are clouds people

12:37

said

12:37

hold i see

12:39

when she transitioned

12:41

the i think we could pivot here to find out if if

12:43

young people are getting surgeries sure minor

12:46

i believe she was eighteen so yeah i'm

12:48

here here's an example of the sort

12:50

of thing she tweeted from august twenty second

12:53

julie terry barry chloe sago

12:55

and david near gender or geiger

12:58

i'm gonna try to pronounce it were targets of severe

13:00

online harassment from kiwi farms and

13:02

took their own lives as lives as of it then

13:04

she tweets at cloud flair and it ceo

13:06

matthew prints and says honor their

13:08

memory and drop the what what is cloud

13:11

cloud fair okay katie [unk] leukemia long

13:13

as episode i i don't want to skip the suicide

13:15

thing let's get back to that at the end because it's it's

13:17

complicated but yeah cloud flair is basically

13:19

a layer a company that provides a

13:21

layer between someone's website and its users

13:24

a

13:25

that

13:26

give us a bunch of performance and security

13:28

services so hashtag drop kiwi

13:30

farms is directed at cloud flair like why

13:33

are you hosting these guys a lot

13:35

of people around the time seem to think that

13:37

of kiwi farms wax the protection cloud

13:39

flair provides against so called

13:41

so called denial of service attacks that's when

13:43

you just like shoot a bunch of fake users

13:46

at a website they think kiwi farms

13:48

will get attacked very easily if it isn't being

13:50

protected by cloud flair so without cloud flair

13:52

key reforms could be in trouble is that makes sense

13:54

they don't make sense but it also doesn't

13:56

make sense because like why go through it seems to

13:58

me like you're to

13:59

they're targeting couples is targeting

14:02

the bouncer rather than

14:04

the video it's

14:05

ah

14:07

why not go after the hosts why you're

14:09

after the the company up

14:11

security right well that's good because they want

14:13

to go after the host but it's like your you need to kill the bodyguard

14:16

to kill the guy inside the club basically as

14:18

you know as you know

14:19

the either let out

14:21

live shows develops oh

14:23

, so as is going

14:26

on to temples says she

14:28

feels he's no longer safe at her home

14:30

after the london swanage she moves into

14:32

a hotel supposed to social

14:34

media just to say what the know i'm

14:36

safe here's my tat i'm in a hotel

14:38

i'm confused about that why isn't she say

14:40

because she thinks that the cops are gonna come after her again

14:42

or like because she's been dogs and she thinks

14:44

somebody to shop at her house i did see well

14:46

i see once when i mean like temple temple

14:48

gets get a dog flagged i think dairy

14:51

and it gets like every day every day and new and he gets

14:53

dogs and he doesn't like move to new location

14:55

every day

14:55

i think it's or is what if what if you're if

14:57

you're addresses out and the sorts of people

14:59

who had dot you have your dress why would you go somewhere else

15:02

for that for little while

15:03

are you okay

15:04

the this is maybe i'm just not security

15:07

conscious enough but this idea of

15:09

like if i were dogs and please don't talk to

15:11

you but if i were docs i don't think i would change anything about

15:14

my behavior

15:15

i really don't because i think the like what

15:17

for like

15:17

because the challenged to the many people

15:19

that are supposed

15:20

go ducks me but like my injury is easy

15:23

to find any like we used to have phone books

15:25

right like the this idea that

15:27

the address that somebody lives and is

15:30

to be privileged information i think is pretty

15:32

fuckin lil and because like

15:34

your of at a time where you could open the phone book and find

15:36

out where anybody lived a maybe just my attitude

15:39

is different about that also it's

15:41

hard to get my house is surrounded by water

15:43

and alligators and workers i

15:45

mean i could be totally wrong about this but to me

15:47

this like dogs thing sounds terrible

15:51

but

15:52

i'm curious about how often

15:54

somebody who's been dogs

15:57

somebody actually throws up shows up to their house

15:59

we are going

16:01

the manor no i don't know i

16:03

think i just see is especially if is as

16:05

i could see that a barrister exposure for national

16:07

swatter to lights a way she

16:10

goes or hotel this hotel she

16:12

posts from it's ah

16:14

her online soccer's including some

16:16

a kiwi firearms proceed to use the

16:18

pattern on the seats and

16:21

the fact that she's in a hotel in this town to figure

16:23

out what hotel she's in from google

16:25

images of the hotel rooms

16:27

so i've interviewed

16:30

a number of people who have

16:32

had what very credible

16:34

threats made against them

16:36

it like i'm specifically i'm thinking of some

16:38

a x muslim activist that

16:40

i soak into and i've aslam

16:42

they don't talk to me about this talking about the threads

16:45

and when you enter when you talk to people

16:48

who had a real credible threat against them

16:50

they do not publicly talk about

16:52

it because that's the advice that you get

16:54

from the f b i and the

16:56

police rights because talking

16:59

about these thrive to

17:01

make them worse it tends to exacerbate

17:03

them so i also have

17:05

a little bit of a knee jerk like okay

17:07

i've talked to people who like have real real

17:09

fucking threats against them and they will not

17:12

talk about it in public into this idea

17:14

he should like posada like if you're

17:16

if you're in danger that you should be posting

17:18

photos from your location to me just doesn't

17:20

make any sense

17:21

it's definitely so this was just a photo

17:24

of the sheets but yeah it's

17:26

not good ops act like operational

17:28

security especially if you feel threatened

17:31

she's never talk to an expert in this

17:33

like it in

17:34

either way on august twenty first

17:36

she tweets high at over support

17:38

my account was hacked and had the password and

17:40

email chains hundreds of dollars worth

17:42

of food showed up on my doorstep could you please

17:44

message me so to remove my payment info from the

17:46

had to town and get reimbursed bursts

17:49

through the photo of a lot of foods are now people are hurting

17:51

her personal information in charge and subbed her

17:53

and again she does is publicly she doesn't

17:55

sit in contact overdrive clean

17:57

or does she and that

17:58

that work she doesn't know this is

17:59

there's no sign cheaper

18:02

to today that privately ever use everything

18:04

was temples is publish she's a very public purse

18:06

a guy on bars she

18:08

announces in the same tweet storm that as a result

18:11

of the she's expediting a plan move to

18:13

europe in another tweet that's

18:15

part of the same thread she didn't appeal directly the

18:17

cloud flair at ease dakota

18:19

that's matthew friend susie c o as cloud

18:21

flats this is why i want you to drop kiwi

18:23

farms from add cloud flirts even speaking

18:26

up about it has met retaliation for me it's

18:28

they're going to keep trying to track me down and

18:30

you have the power to end this

18:32

okay so i got it so

18:34

so she saying is

18:36

clough her job kiwi firearms than

18:39

kiwi farms will be like inundated

18:42

by

18:43

whatever threats and then and then

18:46

it'll go off are tied

18:47

yeah the she thinks i mean the

18:49

weird implication here is that someone well yeah

18:52

attack them with her as it is illegal what people

18:54

ray gloss over the bridge yeah she says she said

18:56

i'm going to keep getting dos and harassed

18:59

and might send food that i didn't order and said unless cloud

19:01

flair pulls down there protection for

19:03

kiwi for

19:04

this is of course all babbling publicly

19:06

this is he's not going behind the behind

19:08

the scenes as scenes as but

19:10

as far as we don't know yeah we

19:12

don't know what's up with the by the scene subway or this is

19:14

our public is a very public last item feel and

19:16

then escorts not long after the hotel

19:18

incident another woman whose as

19:20

far from shuffles as possible the political spectrum

19:23

it's merger teller greens is also

19:25

swatted

19:26

this is because of kiwi

19:27

barnes the person

19:29

the water gives the name

19:31

of a kiwi farms user says like it's me

19:33

i'm swat ago

19:34

okay so kiwi farms is good

19:35

he's a segment featuring

19:37

green on everyone's favorite cable news networks

19:40

newsmax

19:41

but also the police reports

19:43

see something else are fairly alarming

19:46

that the suspect claims that

19:48

here see is connected to this website

19:51

which is a site that actually supports

19:54

cyber stalking the suspect

19:56

even gave police their user

19:58

names are so ways you pointed

20:00

out of this is a suspect

20:02

admitted to a depend mean to do

20:04

harm via us cyber

20:07

stalking you said you for we want to

20:10

eat or prosecute whoever did this and

20:12

i'm assuming that suspect is still at large

20:14

right

20:15

yeah there's an investigation underway and

20:18

there's an even even investigation into

20:20

whether that's really the first said that

20:22

dead that

20:23

it is evident you're saying that such a web

20:25

site exists like why does that even exists

20:28

man that website needs to be taken down

20:30

there should be no business

20:32

there any kind of florida

20:34

where are you

20:35

car get your enemy that the absolutely

20:37

absurd and this is the type of lawlessness

20:40

the democrats want all over the country

20:42

he had a democrats are the party a be found the

20:44

police which is which has created

20:46

crime that is going out of control

20:48

all over the country that it is it's also

20:50

failure as of our government

20:52

and failure of our law enforcement

20:55

to not take down a website

20:57

like that like all of these i simply the

21:00

be completely eradicated they

21:02

should not be allowed to exist they should not

21:04

be able to of these police resources

21:06

like that and police officers the we need

21:09

our police officers we don't have enough

21:11

right now they need to be able to respond to traffic

21:13

accidents as real emergencies

21:16

and where they can save

21:18

someone's life nice party or

21:20

a physical on you know wait

21:23

till someone so that you know

21:26

i absolutely love this the democrats

21:28

are the party

21:29

kiwi farm

21:31

he definitely knows that he's target

21:33

yeah that is likely end up the pressure and clouds

21:35

large is now it's like both aids

21:38

trans twitch streamer but also made

21:40

retailer greens

21:41

the bipartisan everybody can agree

21:43

if you're sitting in the room here is like will get

21:45

more into their stupid kiwi farms yes and a huge number

21:48

of fights with like far right weirdos but we

21:50

got there anyway initially matthew

21:52

prints holds from on august thirty first cloud

21:54

flair posted a long article by having [unk] elisa

21:56

stars act had a public policy at cloud

21:59

flair the out it's policies at

22:01

explaining why it wasn't gonna be in the business of denying

22:03

protections to web sites that requested the

22:05

area a read in part some

22:08

argue that we should terminate the services to contact

22:10

we find reprehensible so that others to launch

22:12

attacks and not going offline that is the equivalent

22:14

argument in the physical world that the fire

22:16

department should respond to fires in the homes

22:18

of people who do not possess sufficient moral

22:20

characters posting the physical world

22:23

and i lied that is a dangerous precedent

22:25

and one that is over the long term most likely

22:27

to disproportionately harm vulnerable

22:29

and marginalized communities so

22:32

they just they they just lay this out as like this

22:34

is not a political thing we can't be

22:36

in the business of of picking winners

22:38

and losers in terms of who gets basic protection

22:40

against internet attacks which is like sort

22:43

of you know what echo of the classical

22:45

liberal free speech position

22:47

yeah that makes total sense to me it also

22:49

i mean it would seem like

22:51

it would be a good business move but i'm guessing

22:53

that they got

22:54

on a pushback from this yeah

22:56

i mean they did there's a whole campaign to

22:58

get in the dropped kiwi farms and and this

23:01

is it important point out that this is like a whole

23:03

other level of the discussion about free

23:05

speech on the internet cause it's one

23:07

thing to argue whether graham linehan should

23:10

be on twitter or meghan murphy or

23:12

what faceless policy should be about scientifically

23:14

questionable current of our stuff's those

23:17

questions like whatever you think about that and we're on the more

23:19

liberal side of those at age those questions do

23:21

come down to private companies

23:23

making decisions about like who is allowed

23:25

to be in their community the

23:27

folks who are okay with

23:30

those forms of moderation or censorship or whatever

23:32

you wanna call though often say something like if

23:34

you can follow the terms of service gremlin

23:36

ends go start your own website go

23:38

find your own community where you can be can sausage

23:40

as you want the different different is

23:42

when

23:43

it it a try to get that one shut down

23:45

to

23:45

a true be this

23:48

thing with cloud flourish different because when you get to

23:50

the territory of pressure your company like cloud flair

23:52

to withdraw a summons

23:54

protections for web sites you don't lights

23:57

at cutler like is is one of the backbone

23:59

of the internet in a certain sense and

24:02

you're taking a very very did step

24:04

in the direction of light certain people just aren't

24:06

going to be allowed to be on the internet at

24:08

all

24:08

yeah this reminds me more i think it's

24:11

more analogous to like pressuring

24:13

amazon web services to take a site

24:15

like parlor offline than

24:17

it is you know twitter kicking james lindsay

24:19

off of off of the public

24:21

yeah yeah they're two different levels of this is like

24:23

a serious arms escalation

24:25

of the potential threat to free speech from

24:27

my big companies unaccountable

24:30

something yes yeah so

24:32

august thirty first cloud flour is holding steady

24:34

not gonna drop kiwi farms then three

24:37

days later total one eighty washington

24:39

post headline under pressure security

24:41

firm cloud flour drops kiwi farms website

24:44

read a little different that article as

24:46

kiwi farms has felt more threaded they have

24:48

reacted by be more threatening the

24:51

prince told the post we think there is an

24:53

imminent danger and the pace at which law

24:55

enforcement is able to respond of those threats

24:57

we don't they just fast enough to keep up now

24:59

please keep that second sentence in my to the rest

25:01

as episode we think there's an imminent danger the

25:04

pace at which law enforcement able respond of

25:06

those threats we don't they just fast enough to cuba that

25:09

require slurs announcement if you went to kiwi firearms

25:12

you were blocked and you got is very alarming

25:14

note due to an imminent

25:16

an emergency threat to sue midlife

25:18

the content of the site is blocked for be

25:20

accessed through cloud flares infrastructure

25:22

that's intense

25:23

yeah and i think it's worth mentioning hear

25:26

that wow

25:28

third did hold steady hill

25:31

some mainstream outlets started reporting

25:33

on this and this is something that glenn greenwald has

25:35

pointed out and b c they have

25:37

their misinformation team they

25:40

published an article about this and

25:42

really quickly offer that cloud flared to

25:45

cloud fair odd given

25:47

yeah i didn't i didn't follow that side of the timeline

25:49

as closely but i wouldn't surprise me at all the

25:52

, a little bit more fun article and are certain it

25:54

i was like one of the leading tech web sites

25:56

in the world we just we had complaints

25:59

time again complaints time the stars as cloud flares

26:01

vp global had a public policy told

26:03

ars that if you're watching even mainstream

26:05

social media over the weekend what you saw something

26:08

that we're really direct threat some very specific

26:10

information about things our plants

26:12

that installation is what started to worry as she

26:14

told ars that's really what prompted us to act

26:17

over the weekend this is now i'm back

26:19

to the reporters voice there was no time to involve

26:21

law enforcement and allow for due process

26:23

cloud flair decided i , everyone

26:25

listening keep that in my to there was no time

26:27

to involve law enforcement this was

26:30

this level of violence unlike that scene and

26:32

prior high profile cases in those

26:34

instances cloud slur waded through a legal

26:36

process before blotted similarly hateful

26:38

forums like eighteen and twenty nineteen

26:40

or the daily stormer in twenty seven tunes

26:43

then he quotes matthew price again saying there's

26:45

an unprecedented emergency an immediate

26:47

threat to human life unlike what we previously

26:50

seen before so there's

26:53

this sense from clouds were that

26:55

this is an absolutely unprecedented

26:58

situation almost historical

27:00

on the internet this is basically one

27:03

of the most dangerous website save ever come across

27:05

and they had no choice but to yank it

27:07

immediately it's without involving

27:09

the authorities

27:10

okay won't what happened what were they talking about what

27:12

sort of threads where these what was what are they planning

27:14

kiwi farms is almost complete absence

27:17

of details with a couple exceptions

27:19

i'll get to in a minute either way

27:23

just continue is is this like rolling

27:25

are snowballing whatever you want to call panic

27:27

and it just gets more and more intense so

27:29

on september said councils announces

27:31

quotes kiwi farms has been removed

27:33

from the internet archive the archives

27:36

of all the threads of people made on kiwi fives

27:38

are god that's a huge

27:41

package and under couples tweet the i'm

27:43

the top response by at face

27:45

plant zero zero wait a minute

27:47

why i don't even know what is t we farm

27:49

stories about but it seems like within a week

27:52

the entire site was erased d platforms

27:54

d person and even remove from the internet archive

27:57

is anyone else concern with the amount of power be

27:59

wielded here it was my only response

28:01

at face played zero zero is wow

28:04

way to be a literal fucking nazi

28:06

yeah right i think we should probably

28:08

explain what the internet archive is for like

28:10

my parents listening

28:11

that's right now okay via the internet archive

28:13

is this

28:15

is what it sounds like it's is the site the

28:17

way back machine that you could use to check old

28:20

web pages and how they looked at different times

28:22

and sites are really important resource

28:24

and it is incredibly unusual for them to just

28:26

wipe and archive my understanding

28:29

and i did send them an email for comment is a usually only

28:31

do this if white you own a website and

28:33

you don't want it archived still

28:35

honor those requests

28:36

yeah i've done that for what a for

28:38

a blog that i kept in my twenties i

28:41

was able to know where can we find a million dollars is

28:43

ah yeah i had them take the holding down which

28:47

like from a journalist perspective the

28:49

internet archive is a really valuable

28:52

and important resource because

28:54

for instance

28:56

major outlets will still at it

28:59

their articles and you can go back

29:01

to the internet archive and find them

29:03

this is a really important source from a personal perspective

29:06

and of the and the precisely whether a

29:08

blogger who made some questionable decisions

29:10

in their twenties be able

29:12

to hide those archives is

29:14

also really bible and there's some real

29:16

tension here you know and i'm and i'm sort

29:18

of some sort of torn about it because from because journalist

29:21

perspective

29:22

i absolutely don't think that that

29:24

you should be able to sort of unilaterally decide

29:27

that these things are not going to be archived

29:30

but from a person were cited and somebody who's

29:32

who's the know interested in things like cancel culture

29:34

like cancel also see why

29:37

there are things that are online that

29:39

people that people don't

29:41

want following them around

29:43

for the rest of their lives

29:45

the nominate try to track

29:47

down i bet the website was like

29:50

this is america we speak english here dot

29:52

blogspot dot com

29:53

b it was build the wall dot com

29:55

i love that responses a plant because

29:58

it's is so day eve is the

30:00

most basic like yeah this is kind

30:02

of weird how quickly this is happening but

30:04

i see like among the journalist writing

30:06

about this it was hard disorders

30:10

the mean his twitter is always are delayed disagree

30:12

with that crap but there's is very little questioning

30:14

of any of this and

30:16

yeah taylor and said that this that

30:18

after a got taken down from the internet archive it

30:20

was a massive w a massive when yeah

30:22

that is this and and i do

30:25

think that you can acknowledge

30:27

the contradictions and the conflicts

30:29

between like wanting to preserve information

30:31

but also thinking that people should have the right

30:33

to some some privacy in some cases

30:36

but from a journalist and for to see

30:38

journalists chair being less

30:40

was really does

30:41

the to me it's strange because

30:43

like as a journalist you want access information and

30:45

you should err on the side of keeping information available

30:48

special unit is like this where no

30:50

one a kiwi josh mood was ahead of kiwi

30:52

farm so we'll get to heated didn't want to take it down

30:55

so i think the idea is just it has so

30:57

much i'm harmful information

30:59

that has had to go but by

31:01

my daily lorenz also she has also

31:03

gotten her turd tweets light from the internet archive

31:05

as an aside

31:06

the w

31:08

yeah you can just anybody can do it you

31:10

just write them and you say don't archive this and

31:12

they will not archive it anybody can do

31:14

he doesn't so doesn't even south of the internet archive

31:16

late saturday morning i get an email

31:18

that his neck i guess that's what has pronounced

31:21

that's basically the icelandic internet like any

31:23

site with a dot i a sausage stay booted

31:25

kiwi farms which had been running from the kiwi

31:28

farms that i us our domain lately

31:30

it's although up and down so

31:34

this this extremely well as have my years of expertise

31:36

but it is extremely unusual idea

31:38

in the case of his neck

31:40

the only tons of dogs in the past involve the pirate

31:43

bay which like explicitly

31:45

it illegal activity by like you know music

31:48

and yeah dark web selling shares

31:50

selling shares view this as other just like movies and music

31:53

and so yeah you're right

31:54

yeah it was like now

31:55

yeah yeah i've got now so to speak

31:58

was measured not earlier was

32:00

there are other

32:01

there you just he just like search shit onslaught

32:03

of island for you don't even need napster

32:05

the right your other examples relate

32:07

to daily stormer and literal

32:09

islamic state propaganda so

32:12

this a mighty wind farms is literally get lumped in

32:14

with terrorists web sites

32:18

that's like the soil and that's how dangerous things

32:20

have gotten that's how evil and violent

32:22

kiwi pharmacist

32:23

in kiwi farms they briefly

32:26

reappeared a under

32:28

like a dot are dot are you name

32:30

right of that's or a russian domain names

32:32

his dot are you there

32:34

was dot t o p they

32:37

also put it like c o p i don't

32:39

now they they have a

32:41

source of onion site which is like a dark

32:43

web site to kill the access via to i defy can

32:45

download tore the people

32:47

i when i go i still don't know a torres what i

32:49

had to use to get to the website your to answer

32:51

this like unbelievably laws and random string

32:53

of characters and and slash and that

32:55

it was just like the normal it

32:57

was so isn't

32:59

sometimes very hard access to cite

33:02

sources sort of the same

33:03

what are people saying when you

33:06

were able to access it

33:07

interestingly josh

33:09

mood who is like the most defiant

33:12

suck everybody type of guy would she doesn't

33:14

help his cause with that's see shutdowns

33:16

the threads about couples

33:18

cause he's just like we're not going responded

33:21

twitter drama he basically like he

33:23

was communicating with other kiwi farm folks

33:25

through telegram which is he can't really

33:27

shutting down a telegram idol think and he i'm

33:29

it's basically just said they were in a precarious

33:31

situation and you'll ever be so

33:33

he tried to save the say this it has a to say

33:35

asks ab and a suicide that as

33:37

like survived passed a doubt attempts

33:39

to do they have accused the probably have more

33:42

enemies , any website that isn't like

33:44

part of a a

33:46

movement or religious right right like lows

33:49

by price thousands of people who

33:51

have been victimized by the answered senses and

33:53

jesse

33:55

that quote that quote from a that they're

33:57

closer people gave says

33:58

washington post

33:59

yeah that they're says up taken violent

34:02

imminent threats

34:03

kiwi firearms where's that

34:05

real

34:06

hey i really don't think so this

34:08

is where everyone gets even weirder

34:11

as far as i can tell fortunately

34:13

pointed to post on kiwi

34:15

farms out as like fifty thousand

34:18

literally about couples that were

34:20

violent during this period or two

34:22

posts both of them are highly sauce

34:24

as a kid say that's a thing right incest

34:27

i mean suspects are suspicious

34:29

or the synonyms i guess so let's

34:31

say tomato tax betty prince

34:33

announces issue surgeon course on

34:35

september third late of a day earlier that

34:37

day it's temples posted the following l

34:40

, i should a service ellen murray is

34:42

also twitch streamer that the french he said he

34:44

was uses stocks are now this

34:46

is all public stats the friend a bell sassy

34:48

say whether was of the times ellen is

34:50

live on twitch and told her chat she

34:53

was planning to take me to a protein shop

34:55

in belfast so i could see how irish

34:57

protein holds up to five users

34:59

already mapped out every protein shop in

35:01

the city and one of them posted this

35:03

seafoods a screenshot of a post that shows

35:05

a key reforms user referencing are you are out

35:07

to up who team plays and saying

35:10

just rang up rang couple of lads down

35:12

in belfast and ask them to plant bombs

35:14

in all of these places also

35:16

three armed man will be at each place with

35:20

it doesn't gel gray obvious it's a fucking

35:22

joke

35:23

it's not i mean

35:26

this was about me i would be alarmed

35:28

i guess the question is do you think see

35:30

we farms or anyone on

35:32

it has the ability to summon

35:36

like a paramilitary force to monitor

35:38

all the putting sauce

35:40

in belfast the i depends on how many

35:42

putting jobs

35:42

bomb as i don't think it's a major another

35:45

etti will place outside eastern canada

35:47

as a major i put he said it's can it is

35:49

only export okay so this brings

35:51

us to joss moon he's the guy

35:53

you sounded runs kiwi farms and he sort

35:55

of has a supervillain persona that he absolutely

35:57

leans into

35:59

after

35:59

made it's announcement cheated opposed

36:02

arguing that as soon as this threat

36:04

was posted it was immediately reported

36:06

by members of the community it's down voted

36:09

and as the author of the posts pulled it out just a few

36:11

minutes after castles tweeted a screenshot

36:13

of

36:13

so they're so there's self regulating

36:15

that's what are you claiming another kiwi farmer

36:18

are provided this a prostitute timeline

36:20

where it's at three forty two this

36:22

account at was sees you he wow

36:24

makes the post nine minutes later

36:27

kessel screen taps it two minutes

36:29

after that shuffle sweet sets than the

36:31

post is deleted one minute later this

36:33

this would mean that the post was up for

36:35

a total of fourteen

36:38

minutes before it was pulled out and was pulled out

36:40

by the author himself josh media dusts

36:42

initially said ah weep

36:45

a moderator pulled it out but that he like cross and

36:47

said as she was pulled down by the person who posted it

36:49

and ah cup of must

36:51

spend a lotta time on

36:52

he reform say i think

36:54

by this point this point conflict

36:57

a huge number of couples fans

36:59

were are learn monitoring kiwi

37:01

farms to see what's going on there

37:03

and to wait for something like this happened

37:05

to that why would you rate

37:07

right is it possible that was

37:09

used to allow is

37:11

a is a careful stan

37:13

the want to use the threat is is the

37:16

say what's the word for this

37:19

reverse cowgirl is as a word for this

37:21

yeah definetly safely a reverse

37:23

cowgirl dude six a sort of here moon

37:26

in a statement moon just basically argues

37:28

like this person isn't like a real active member

37:30

the community only commented in the couples

37:33

threads this

37:35

appears to be a sweeper account someone had gotten

37:37

access to a july and kept on had to

37:39

use like this and quote so that's what josh mood

37:42

is going with this is this is

37:44

not a genuine member of our community this is like a false

37:46

flag type of

37:46

yeah for five that's the word not reverse

37:49

cowgirl gotcha

37:50

the big the synonyms moral girls

37:52

, wanna do what a false flag so

37:55

was use what he said his posts the president

37:57

has been set as cloud layer with enough pressure

38:00

single post by a strange accounts

38:02

can be made to threaten a nine year old community

38:04

and the tens of thousands of people who have use it everyday

38:06

for years at i sit the evidence

38:08

at least partially support said if this was some

38:11

kind of false flag i say not as you can just

38:13

read the archives of ,

38:15

thread if you're a masochist and

38:17

see that violent threats are not be style

38:20

of kiwi farms is all just highly toxic

38:22

ridicule frequently using racial

38:24

and ethnic slurs often not at light not

38:27

it the way that fit for they will call

38:29

one another the edwards even when

38:31

i want involve is whites ah they

38:34

do seem to have specific norms

38:36

against interfering with their targets they

38:38

call it a logging or touching

38:40

the pooh

38:43

the

38:44

you can you can you can see this if you just read

38:46

the posts which i think a lot of people reporting on the site didn't do

38:49

is roughly analogous to how in like fortunate

38:51

a spin off communities earnestness

38:53

is a sign of weakness like the your pussy

38:55

if you have feelings baylor things like

38:58

that they you're a piece her i

39:00

think you know you know that like fortunate him it's like

39:02

you mad

39:02

ah

39:04

you know you mad like letter u mad

39:06

with the images and it's just like this

39:08

truly for tournaments with a whole the

39:10

whole eat those behind you mad is i'm the troll

39:13

if i can get you to re i gotcha

39:15

yeah i got it so from

39:18

the perspective of kiwi farms

39:20

users are some of them at least this is what

39:22

they claims yes we're

39:24

going to dot these people were going to ridicule

39:26

them but if you fuck with the directly you're

39:29

a logic you're touching the pool and that's

39:31

not as that's frowned upon

39:32

they they should not do the dark same

39:34

thing because

39:37

they're just making five people then

39:40

there will be no date there be no legitimate

39:42

claim to shut down the site they gonna fuck

39:44

themselves on earth

39:46

authors or i was deserves a big

39:48

wide jaw just like if is moon

39:51

was just like the these seem

39:53

to like sort of worship this guy who goes by know

39:55

on the side edu ella whatever he says goes

39:57

see seems so

40:00

obsessed with the idea of be able to get

40:02

away with everything they can legally it's

40:04

and in the vast majority of cases it's legal to search

40:06

for people's public information post sets that

40:08

he just like he will compromise but you're

40:11

right is it wasn't for the doctor if was just

40:13

another site making fun of everyone i

40:15

saw people not battery but a lot of these threads

40:18

are not that different from twitter except for the

40:20

da seeing the slurs

40:21

the thing that has driven me crazy

40:23

about this sade it or about

40:25

the dialogue a discourse about this

40:27

site is that i see people

40:30

the on twitter talking

40:32

about he how kiwi farms and how

40:35

there's he suicide how it's

40:37

death threats how they dogs people is like you

40:39

are saying this honestly

40:41

were that same shit

40:43

happened i mean i yeah

40:46

i know it seems that wire to try to

40:48

get in one instance

40:50

the same people complaining about

40:52

kiwi farms and celebrated getting shutouts

40:55

i know for a sacked participate

40:57

in what can only because harassment campaigns against

40:59

people they hate

41:00

it's okay if people are pissed

41:02

about kiwi farms dogs

41:04

and councils the people who are who

41:06

are outraged about this how did they feel about

41:08

kiwi farms docs in marjorie taylor green

41:10

i would really love to know because i think they'd be

41:12

fine with it because nazis bad

41:15

yeah i'm alex goldman

41:17

this comment is a good example she eats

41:20

former host of reply all before that

41:22

show melted down completely and or details controversy

41:24

we covered that alex would not lift a finger to decide

41:27

his friend over that

41:29

he he tweeted some shit about and want to make

41:31

is about our inner peace i'll be brief as he was like are

41:33

jesse singles defended kiwi farms which i

41:35

was

41:37

alex was

41:38

he often call me your much dahmer

41:40

host i don't think i think slightly

41:43

dumber

41:43

national register as online harassment

41:46

that that's also a leaders just because

41:48

you went to stanford and i went to

41:50

yale i think that's it

41:51

the he

41:54

alex was as all

41:56

of media twitter piled on his

41:58

friend pj vote in the most ridiculous

42:01

over the top pile on now

42:03

these are journalist writing under their own names

42:06

and they went to good schools so they're not talk

42:08

to him they're not using slurs police

42:10

the same fucking shit it's the same said

42:12

there are no trying to ruin his life trying

42:14

to make him to destroy his reputations

42:17

and alex briefly on blocked me

42:19

and we had a brief exchange that wasn't taught

42:21

at i flipped out because he said that we were gleeful

42:24

pj got fired when we descended

42:27

what it's the opposite we defended bj

42:29

wouldn't out and say sir edward said

42:32

i try i said of heat and will be

42:34

why does software friends

42:36

with this guy alex was is fucking partner

42:39

and he said nothing while pj

42:41

was being

42:41

sry average this , already

42:44

such a complicated episode to follow and word has added

42:46

a whole other day day story short

42:49

i said to alex to

42:51

, said that actually it's good

42:54

to make fun of people who are racist or transfer orbit

42:57

you know what they decided your buddy pj vote

42:59

was racist that was the claim pt boats or

43:01

races because of some buttons byzantine

43:04

union bullshit a gimlet and a half

43:06

of media twitter piled onto pj

43:09

vote in a way where you know

43:11

what someone's mental health is like getting pulled on sauce

43:13

made to what's your entire community turn against you

43:15

that's the kind of shit that does lead to

43:17

lead can contribute to at least since

43:20

like suicide we've had instances of people

43:22

killing themselves you can it's not mana

43:24

causally since it was because of the online harassment

43:26

but it's a contributing factor slow

43:28

when it comes to kiwi firearms winning it when it's humid

43:30

there aren't any they're the only i is my a causal

43:33

right so that to me really

43:35

tough you're watching someone without goldman who is firsthand

43:38

experience of his fred getting brutally

43:40

raped over the coals for nothing stands

43:43

i know it's good it's good to harass people are my like

43:45

fuck that that so i thought there to

43:47

be so much for parker see from the folks are

43:49

gleeful that decides beanpole doubts

43:51

like you said the dachshund is awful

43:53

it also isn't illegal and we're talking about the question whether

43:55

the site's it exists at all not whether you should

43:58

go to it or whether we should like it or celebrate

44:00

it's where you like a more existential internet

44:02

area now should it be allowed to exist to me

44:04

it's that that's where you get to because of is it

44:06

doing such as illegal

44:08

this is not like go up

44:10

your nor me on the street what kiwi farm says

44:12

and they're going to tell you it's a place where

44:14

kiwis are grown that that like people

44:16

don't know who the hell they say it doesn't have a dead

44:19

until now and didn't have a high profile

44:21

outside of hyper online phases

44:23

yeah

44:24

so anyway yeah we we we we got an email

44:27

i got an email from someone who basically

44:30

was hard to defend the car farms to me i

44:32

didn't agree with all the other three this one that's

44:34

also i'm sure you've come across as line already

44:36

but it is totally against sports culture to

44:38

interact with the locales in any way it's

44:40

let alone harasser threatens anyone

44:43

who does posts interactions are threats gets equivalent

44:45

of down voted to hell and the mods or quit to delete

44:47

the worse that said there's

44:50

a plausible deniability think is your you have

44:52

two thousand three hundred pages of

44:54

people talking shit about castles the

44:57

idea that that combined with posting

44:59

her personal information is not going to lead

45:01

to some people harassing her it's is kind of

45:03

ridiculous is an hour

45:05

sure but like some people

45:07

harassing her i mean i just i think there

45:09

there has to be a really clear line between

45:11

like credible death or as things like swatting

45:14

it's and

45:16

making fun of people online even if it's cruel

45:18

even if it's mean like this is shit that happens

45:20

to everybody who has have a large

45:22

platform and happens to you it happens

45:24

to me and at some point you

45:26

have to learn to ignore it or

45:29

you turn into someone like jesse singal just crazy

45:32

just tweeting at our store demanding

45:35

satisfied yes the men are attractions

45:37

anywhere i i don't think it's arms

45:39

credible for kiwi like i think it's

45:41

true that the board culture is against

45:44

direct harassment but i think there are a little bit foolish it here also

45:46

i talked to a streamer who

45:48

i won't name who hates castles and

45:50

she was like that's not sure

45:52

some key reforms people do harass people so i think

45:55

like it'd be silly to pretend there's no harassment a

45:57

that directly comes from kiwi farmers

45:59

that

45:59

i mean that i was about sitting on

46:02

the winner is a platform where

46:04

the harassment is right encouraged by

46:06

the very algorithm like the trending topics

46:09

feed you people

46:10

i rarely this is who you should

46:12

make fun of right now

46:13

like the queen's has died in twitter

46:15

has been three days of bully about

46:17

this that's what the it's not that different

46:19

from kiwi far

46:20

this is why no matter how like we did

46:22

try to be somewhat measured with kiwi france is a pretty

46:24

shitty place in insights rasmus we will never

46:27

be able to get to a place where we will explain exactly

46:30

why it's different to the other than

46:32

the slurs which is it's aesthetic the

46:34

sourcing is not release people tell

46:36

themselves because they are slurs is because everyone

46:38

is telling you to tell yourself until you're bad person

46:40

there is there's not that different i wish people

46:43

would like rap without a little when it's when i explain

46:45

this to goldman here spotted by blocking your gadgets

46:47

desert your people don't want to have zero edwards

46:50

okay wait one more thing about this kiwi

46:52

farms so is his the

46:54

idea that kiwi farms harassment

46:57

transcends kiwi far

46:59

the or

47:00

or is the idea or does it stay on kiwi

47:02

farms right because there's a difference between like

47:04

harassment like showing up in your inbox

47:06

and people emailing you are showing up your house

47:09

god forbid and actually going to the site

47:11

and looking at it like yourself digging

47:13

into it didn't that are two thousand fucking pages

47:15

making fun of me the remaining

47:17

hand

47:18

you have added to the whole claim is about the former

47:20

about it extending office it was just aren't

47:22

you before

47:22

dubner cause you're in is it doesn't

47:25

that's the claims that it leads to harassment

47:27

beyond kiwi farms are by

47:29

kiwi farmers i'm so

47:31

i was surprised

47:34

at the difference between how the site was been described

47:36

by lot of outlets they really made

47:38

out to be a place for like a bunch of people gathered together

47:40

to find a way to kill an assault people

47:43

the reality is it's a brutal a vicious

47:46

place but it just isn't using i wake as i do have

47:48

those pretty strong norms against touchy

47:50

the pool and

47:53

again as soon as this for specific threat popped

47:55

up seven uses reporters at and it was pulled

47:57

down by it's own author forty minutes later said that's

47:59

right right the food you dry

48:02

as a as it's not taught don't touch that they do

48:05

something similar happened with

48:07

the other thread on kiwi farms on september fourth

48:09

today's part of the one i just talked about tassels

48:12

tweeted college and death threats

48:14

to the police has become has regular part

48:16

of my life because of this campaign this

48:18

campaign this second bomb threat this week this

48:21

post read i'm going to read the slurred

48:23

oh the amount of me this is what the prison sad sack

48:25

this dumb training that i'm planning

48:27

to fly to ireland is temple still there

48:29

i seriously want to shoot that dumb bitch

48:32

i will plant bombs around the place are sagging

48:34

as well someone give me the address

48:36

site that's then shuffle says i've had to talk

48:38

to the police more and ireland that i haven't canada

48:41

this website should be illegal

48:42

like apple shouldn't and told people that

48:44

she was moving to ireland's said

48:47

to sort of added some problems there

48:48

so the threat was not from shuffles

48:52

, thread on tv farms it was from the thread

48:54

on the drop kiwi farm sasha which of course

48:56

was just more people targeted by couples if

48:59

you gotta kiwi farms you will see people

49:01

mentioning this post the post

49:03

itself as dance the first response i can

49:05

see someone posting this users history

49:08

with the user image which is a furry this was posted

49:10

by a ferrari because of our lawyers that was up like

49:12

a course at some point the story was going involve

49:14

a story story only have two posts

49:16

in their entire user history and kiwi

49:18

farms one is this one and

49:21

the other is one claiming that brent in toronto

49:23

d brent terrance toronto d church

49:25

mosque killer didn't do anything wrong

49:28

and that there should be an even bigger massacre against

49:30

muslims in the uk

49:31

wow nice

49:33

the the implication is clear by this other

49:35

kiwi farms post opposing the user history

49:37

it's they're just a troll they're only here to post

49:40

like her as exhausts after

49:43

posting images of their history this

49:45

kiwi farms users as quotes

49:47

go back to wiping bite his as

49:50

glow and words

49:52

you've got to say jersey

49:53

i'm not there yet he had let go back

49:55

to wiping bite his ass glow edward

49:57

this was like by eighties users and the post

50:00

take it down after the posts was taken down by the

50:02

moderators key

50:03

okay so glow and word

50:06

a glow edward according to

50:08

the urban dictionary a government agent

50:10

f b i and as a cia a

50:12

t s making beat posts on forums

50:14

and image forced to entrap individuals are

50:16

gathered tells us that the

50:19

purported goal of glow and words is dating

50:21

potential criminals or gather intelligence about

50:23

a particular online communities to

50:26

reveal their at her intentions are believe so do

50:28

get what is what's going on with this user

50:30

accusing the other user bigger glow edward

50:32

i get it yes this person is saying that you

50:34

are said

50:36

yeah it'll told said posting sometimes

50:38

i'm the next kiwi farm use

50:40

a response and

50:42

anyone with a join date over a year that

50:44

doesn't post regularly you should be preemptively

50:47

bands like as a security precaution the

50:49

next user i

50:52

honestly believe it's a fucking sorry

50:54

not even said go that low of the seven sacks

50:57

, ago castles with degrading and everything

51:00

before you started spin the sets it

51:02

translated that means look at

51:04

the screenshot i have sewing this post has

51:06

this post rating before you use this as evidence

51:08

against us

51:09

there are so these users are they're

51:12

like oh fuck this is gonna be used

51:14

against

51:14

he said there's more they're just mad is a view

51:16

it as like a really clumsy said posting effort

51:18

like yeah another user love

51:21

how both said posers to specifically

51:23

to say quote plant bombs and quotes

51:26

so in short everyone in the thread responding

51:28

to it starts making fun of the person for the violent

51:31

threats treating it as obvious be

51:33

to involve the authorities or getty we farms in

51:35

a more pr trouble no one support supposed

51:37

was quickly taken down see workloads suck

51:40

ass can't glow harder

51:42

i guess glow means like be a sad

51:45

one more like clockwork in

51:47

all the retards on twitter will eat it up despite

51:49

it being obvious bullshit our

51:52

slurs so those are the two

51:54

violent threats on tv firearms to put the been

51:56

taught as castles thread on kiwi

51:58

farms before was locked i moved

52:00

to try show things out was about forty six

52:03

thousand five hundred posts about

52:05

one per said when they

52:07

locked it even after they lost

52:09

it there is no way i was you'd be other it was just an insane

52:12

amount of just builds there's

52:14

the separate thread dedicated to the drop kiwi

52:16

firearms or hashed firearms was about three thousand

52:18

five hundred that's how i got my estimate of more

52:21

than fifty thousand posts about castles

52:23

or her campaign i kiwi farms that's

52:25

likely and underestimates i'm sure they talked about or elsewhere

52:28

in the sights who pose

52:30

out of fifty thousand had violent

52:32

threats they both went down within like fifteen

52:34

minutes

52:34

that's it that's it this is just

52:37

to bozo a tiny tiny tiny

52:39

percentage these posts

52:41

had actual violent threads and the entire

52:43

site it's not just taken down but white from the internet

52:46

archive because of these two fucking post

52:48

i have lots

52:50

pretty hard later that it's impossible to read the

52:52

whole thread it's to all my ass on twitter i

52:54

talk to folks around kiwi farms

52:57

who of course have an agenda but they gave me

52:59

other information i needed that didn't always make them look

53:01

good no one most importantly

53:03

no one in couples can has posted others samples

53:05

of kiwi farms issue violent threats

53:08

what about off kiwi farms i mean

53:10

this became such a his story where there are threats on

53:12

other sites shoes

53:13

we get to the very weirdest part

53:15

of the sorry i'm so the threat

53:18

that dot the most attention actually involved

53:20

fortune and resident kiwi farms it

53:22

was posted by couples herself on august thirty

53:25

first mid afternoon he says time semester

53:27

was that was before asked around cloud

53:29

flair descended hosting kiwi farms

53:32

but op she said yesterday

53:35

as i was ending the stream where i gave updates

53:37

on the hashtag drop kiwi farms campaign

53:40

this was posted online just outside

53:42

my address shortly afterwards northern

53:44

ireland police came to the apartment i'm saying here because

53:46

someone that attempted to swap me i'm

53:48

gonna return to this point but the security here

53:50

is ridiculously lacks a

53:53

given that kettles is at this point other run

53:55

for her life that's what she says so

53:58

first hour in the friends you say with the northern the

54:00

publicly announce is what type of food there's any debts

54:03

ah and it's routine which is probably rather

54:05

like elysee fish and chips and

54:07

then tussles publicly posted image from fortune

54:10

that reveals the apartment building

54:12

or at least the neighborhood there and to that was a whole point

54:14

of post again

54:15

this makes it like a

54:17

harder to feel sympathy

54:19

for her if she's because a lot

54:21

of this does seem to be for attention

54:23

she'd given a fortune given me fortune

54:26

poster exactly what he wants this is how

54:28

fortune i it's like look we got

54:30

the right and also here's a picture of the house

54:32

it i'm saying

54:32

and if anybody wants to drop at it's just unbelievably

54:35

bad opposite but

54:37

i don't want to

54:40

the way from the fact it is an undeniably weird

54:42

and medicine note katie would you like me to read it

54:44

at least in august they

54:46

use couples that named the

54:48

first name from before she transition advocacy

54:50

chapel's and said i'm a i'm a gentleman

54:53

that an hour

54:54

loyalists against runes apple's

54:57

out of our community kiwi farms

54:59

altruist thirty eight twenty

55:01

twenty two that's the dates ulster kiwi

55:04

farms force first need an ulster

55:06

hi i'm josh the corn lord he

55:08

said guns ralph told me to do

55:10

this katie should be set aside

55:13

because aside because yes no

55:15

perhaps

55:15

you might

55:17

as well below

55:18

okay i'll i'll try not to even

55:20

try to get this whole thing out a sense of it up true

55:22

and we went over to derogatory term as say

55:25

like basically a cloud chasing sort of

55:27

seats trans person the

55:29

political stuff i'm in a northern

55:31

irish contests flights

55:34

hundred calories hello it of beauty

55:36

of this is six hours ,

55:38

a targeted at the troubles god

55:41

since late twentieth century conflict in northern

55:43

ireland was ireland knew nothing about us

55:44

kill the queens or does he like

55:46

they claim

55:47

we we're going if i could get they did

55:49

get to that i've made i've made this is

55:51

the wikipedia entry on the troubles because

55:54

it was primarily political or nationalistic fueled

55:56

by historical events it also an ethnic or sectarian

55:58

dimensions but despite the the terms

56:00

protestant and catholic to refer to the two sides

56:03

it was not a religious conflict a key issue

56:05

was the status of northern ireland a day we're

56:07

both fastest unionists and loyalists

56:10

who for historical reasons were mostly also

56:12

protestants wanted northern ireland to remain

56:14

within the united kingdom's irish nationalist

56:17

republicans were most hours tablets

56:19

wanted northern ireland to leave the united

56:21

kingdom and joined a united ireland a case

56:24

be independent i'm so that's what the

56:26

loyalists part of this thread is referring to this

56:28

is someone living in or near belfast two sides

56:31

with england square and things ireland

56:33

should be part of the uk and they're likely to be protestant

56:35

rather than catholics are

56:38

ulster t v farms force is i

56:40

does take , of the ulster

56:42

volunteer force that was a loyalist

56:45

paramilitary group that face off against the ira

56:47

and naturally responsible for

56:49

atrocities so that's

56:52

so best for she said i for his history

56:54

to vessel reacted

56:55

okay in who is josh the corn lord

56:57

and east and gun ralph

56:59

well just the corn lord i can imagine that

57:01

josh from kiwi farms yeah

57:04

so that's just mood or nord corner there's i'd i'd

57:06

almost certainly don't want to know or even

57:08

rouse is a fairly gonzo

57:10

right wing internet personally i've

57:12

been aware vincent gamer gate he does the ralph

57:15

retort website if , still

57:17

exists i don't care there's a lot of stuff

57:19

about east and ralph on kiwi farm she was evolving

57:21

bottle legal entanglements that provided kiwi

57:24

farms have a lot of like full tell

57:26

melt op's op's

57:28

it ralph citing seats kiwi

57:30

farm sees a like a writer for a guy

57:32

who hates kiwi farms if you search twitter

57:35

you'll see that his relationship to them is roughly

57:37

the same as kessel sites not

57:39

a fan so saying

57:42

kyle josh the corn lord either

57:44

dot ralph told me told do this me

57:46

to confusing because those two people

57:49

hate one another unless it's like truly

57:51

like and false flag him as a try to blame it on he

57:53

sends right i don't think it

57:55

didn't really seem like journalists picked up on the weirdest

57:57

years i think the folks writing about the story

58:00

mostly i know genuine familiarity with kiwi

58:02

firearms or the bizarre cast of characters ensnared

58:05

start corner of the internet also i'm just

58:07

a pathetic low life so life recognize names

58:10

like eaten ralph when i see them because i wasted my

58:12

life and have basically nothing left to live for

58:14

yeah this does seem to be a continuing

58:16

issue when news reporters

58:19

try to understand internet drama

58:21

is that you have to spend a

58:23

lot of time with a nice communities

58:25

they have specific they have a specific language

58:27

in these various different communities and

58:30

if users and drop in and

58:32

take things literally you're

58:35

you're gonna miss a lot of shit you're missing alot of

58:37

later

58:37

katie how can you expect

58:39

reporters to learn about a community

58:42

the reporting on when it's so dangerous was

58:44

pulled offline

58:44

the out your your the they need they need a furry

58:47

they they have free like tracing odorants to go and

58:49

anna and be the be

58:51

the bombs

58:52

laughing die for them so this

58:54

strange image posted to a website that wasn't

58:56

kiwi fives was for said was treated

58:59

as

58:59

what it references q if

59:00

and i was why was treated as

59:03

evidence that kiwi farms was responsible

59:05

here's how i supported it the

59:07

already found out that someone inspired by the thread

59:09

on kiwi farms had posted a picture themselves standing

59:12

outside murray's apartments were holding a thread

59:14

a message mostly to the police arrive

59:16

and told her that someone had reported as shooting at or apartments

59:19

and so on so

59:20

someone inspired by the thread on kiwi

59:22

farms look i know

59:24

the thing says kiwi firearms

59:26

but there's no reporting the backup that is the first

59:29

was inspired by kiwi firearms towards you might respond

59:31

utility being a jerk the

59:33

chassis they said they were inspired by kiwi

59:36

forms of their notes to which i would respond

59:38

the earth and someone emailed the london ontario

59:41

city government said they were couples

59:45

can we should talk journalism a minute

59:47

before we continue the story i just this once

59:50

to do how city versus yet another west yeah

59:52

we should do has given oh my god is episodes

59:54

obese i can wait till now i decided it oh

59:56

daddy fair i would fucking to hunched over towards

59:59

marriage

59:59

you have been sitting months

1:00:02

hunters

1:00:02

okay a yeah we're blocks reported were

1:00:05

podcasts that we do a lot of stores but

1:00:07

internet bullshit block reported dot org

1:00:09

or our subreddit is watch reported dot

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read it dot com we're

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doing a live event in arlington but it's sold out tough

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luck thank you for folks you buy tickets that's crazy

1:00:18

we saw that shit outright i know very

1:00:20

a very quickly october twenty ninth look for

1:00:22

tickets on credulous i actually i bought

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have to take his i'm just going to sell them for our thousand

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, that's how we have to

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hopeful live events to are

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announcing but that's announcing but the case before

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so we'll wait to websites done

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yes we have a subscriber

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right right

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three extra episodes every month

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we , recorded of fun one a couple days

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there was crazy theories traded

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go to block the reported dot org and join

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the other start know jesse's causes

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no no kiwi know she was farms are

1:01:27

workers am the other yeah

1:01:30

they're working on they're should last two policemen be so

1:01:32

thankful for thankful premium subscribers because like

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that's to imagine if imagine put all his time

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like the tor a silver notorious

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idealistic is water for departure said him

1:01:41

over time for any feedback i'm sure

1:01:44

or to reforms episode will generate feedbacks

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also we've got some great

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advice and free send us

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an mp three if you have friend a relationship advice

1:01:53

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1:02:00

advice about how to live your life then

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us to

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yes are speaking of of non

1:02:05

sexual content i also have a

1:02:07

little correction to per episode can

1:02:09

i do that here okay

1:02:11

we got an email from a listener ask

1:02:14

your our investigative reporting

1:02:17

on daisy chains and the last

1:02:19

episode

1:02:19

ha

1:02:21

alright so the listener says the sex act

1:02:23

that he is describing and the he in this case

1:02:25

is a reporter for repairs

1:02:27

health or or ,

1:02:29

boys let he's an advice columnist or for

1:02:31

the magazine men's health and

1:02:34

he described the sex at called a daisy

1:02:36

chain and are a

1:02:38

are listener says the sex

1:02:40

act he is describing he called describing is pierre

1:02:43

a daisy chain is three or more people are

1:02:45

performing oral sex on each other eg

1:02:47

person ain't would be performing oral sex on person be

1:02:50

person be performing oral sex on person see

1:02:52

in person so you'll be performing oral sex on daisy

1:02:54

a hence a chain so

1:02:56

correction to that what we're talking about

1:02:58

was a man i don't

1:03:00

want to describe it so the family friendly

1:03:02

show

1:03:03

find your the use a daisy a

1:03:05

fuss is about that

1:03:07

that you can go back and listen to that if you on our

1:03:09

description what a daisy chain is not

1:03:12

if you want to yes yeah what

1:03:14

i'm sure

1:03:14

so thank you to that i will

1:03:16

not mention his name but thank

1:03:18

you to that tour

1:03:19

berliner let's talk shit about journalism

1:03:21

get

1:03:22

let's do i love nothing

1:03:23

where the reporting on this story has been

1:03:26

like ridiculously god awful it's sort

1:03:28

of everything we criticize about

1:03:30

modern journalism the certitude the

1:03:32

complete lack of any distinction between activism in journalism

1:03:34

the confident proclamations about subjects journalists

1:03:37

know nothing about it's , there so

1:03:39

one very basic thing you'll know if you

1:03:41

follow online harassment or

1:03:44

online culture is that trolls constantly

1:03:46

do false flag attacks during

1:03:48

game or gate for example i'm going to ask you to google

1:03:51

that if you know what i'm talking about you sometimes

1:03:53

the targets of outrage campaigns get

1:03:55

google it because you'll get a bunch of wrong

1:03:57

information

1:03:58

right during that

1:03:59

that fairly frequently see people get death threats

1:04:02

like i was gamer gate and i will kill you

1:04:04

some of the time and probably most of the time

1:04:06

for be honest those folks had nothing to do with gamer

1:04:08

gate they were trolls almost always from places

1:04:11

like fourteen or a chance these are

1:04:13

sites that are very nihilistic and they consist

1:04:15

of the sort of person who wants to called a bomb

1:04:17

threat to be like i the person issue

1:04:19

in this bomb threats and tom smith at fifty

1:04:22

four would ever lane the whole hope

1:04:24

is as additional brickhouse caused by a bomb threat

1:04:26

police will show up at that force myself so

1:04:28

strolls love to stir up trouble

1:04:31

and one of the biggest waste a serb trouble at zero

1:04:34

or little wrists oneself as to threaten someone with

1:04:36

deaths and to attribute that death threat to

1:04:38

some third party for example

1:04:40

while example while poking around i had to do a lot

1:04:42

of searches on the kiwi farms archives one

1:04:45

snapshot of the site has this message at the

1:04:47

top i'm jocelyn

1:04:50

ongoing d d o s attacked again

1:04:52

ps

1:04:53

attacking a specific locales thread isn't

1:04:55

going to make me assume it's that person

1:04:57

and start up a crusade against them you fucking

1:05:00

moron do have the same

1:05:02

yes but please parsifal

1:05:03

he say like josh moon who

1:05:05

is

1:05:06

whatever else he is he savvy about the internet he said

1:05:08

if you do a are basically

1:05:11

a hacker attack against the thread about

1:05:13

a lot touts i'm not going to be like

1:05:15

oh it must have been the locale who wants this i'm

1:05:17

getting would retaliate because that's how

1:05:19

trolls worth a try to cause i kind of trouble

1:05:21

success so watching this unfold

1:05:24

i was a little bit gobsmacked by these journalists

1:05:26

who just weeks ago had

1:05:28

reported on a false flag swatting that

1:05:30

targeted castles and then suddenly

1:05:33

they're saying well if an anonymous

1:05:35

posts says it comes from an online community

1:05:38

the threat comes from an online community it's just very

1:05:41

ridiculous incredulous read my missing something

1:05:43

no i think you're right i think again

1:05:45

this gets in the fact that a lot of online

1:05:47

reporters do not understand the communities

1:05:49

of their

1:05:49

bring one cm what's

1:05:52

the snowball effect story in a bunch of journalists

1:05:54

learned about kiwi farm so the first time

1:05:56

to decide to write about it's reporting dot like

1:05:58

worse and worse i'm so

1:06:01

, reading this coverage and i'm pulling my hair out

1:06:03

at how off base it is so like the

1:06:05

canadian broadcasting corporation includes this

1:06:07

account from lives fong jones she's

1:06:09

a former google employee who's been targeted by kiwi

1:06:12

farms and and has been encouraging

1:06:14

cloud flair another to take it down here's

1:06:16

a quote from the article or involving trans

1:06:19

lifeline which is the suicide hotline for trans

1:06:21

people lose phone jones said

1:06:23

they tried they mean and kiwi farms tried

1:06:25

to slander translate lines character

1:06:27

and when she pushed back online pushed

1:06:29

back accusations they published your personal information

1:06:32

of the forum including your home address

1:06:34

or biological parents names and photocopy of or

1:06:36

gender a name change i was minding my

1:06:38

own business i was trying to support a crisis hotline

1:06:40

for trans people and now i was in the crosshairs

1:06:42

of these people etc so the

1:06:45

dancing and harassment she spirit is spirits

1:06:47

is awful and is something kiwi farms does all the times

1:06:50

but this whole account of the

1:06:53

story involving trans lifeline is this a fucking

1:06:55

lie i'm kiwi farms

1:06:57

thought the people who ran the trans lifeline were

1:06:59

grifters to reform st louis

1:07:01

swung jones is friends with them i haven't looked into

1:07:03

that but it turned out that lo and behold

1:07:06

they were grifters if you go to the suicide

1:07:08

hotlines twenty seventeen tax filings they

1:07:10

say are found her soul

1:07:12

i think it's three hundred seventy five thousand

1:07:15

dollars from allow so there was a major

1:07:17

scandal at be trans lifeline

1:07:19

like the same a suicide hotline and

1:07:21

all that gets translated into the canadian broadcasting

1:07:24

corp said she was just deciding the innocent

1:07:26

suicide hotline against slander so it's

1:07:28

just it's bad journalism in the only way you

1:07:30

could write that story that poorly it's a d

1:07:32

that credulous cordless phone jos it out is if

1:07:34

you don't know anything about that

1:07:36

absolutely and the trans lifeline story

1:07:39

was not reported but

1:07:41

did anybody

1:07:41

support i know i don't think anyone

1:07:43

covered it except study

1:07:45

griffey scammers who ran

1:07:47

it and i should be clear as it did cleaned up

1:07:50

i think now they're of generally vital

1:07:52

resource but yet they got puff piece

1:07:54

offered for ruddy a believe they were they appear to

1:07:56

have been criminals according to the people who now

1:07:59

run translation they'd lose money

1:08:01

was so and and no one paid attention to it except

1:08:03

kiwi farm said there's is crazy

1:08:05

backstory robin current a cone trying to raise awareness

1:08:08

of their lack of safeguarding like background

1:08:10

checks and supposedly one of the grifters

1:08:12

running trains lifeline showed

1:08:14

up at joshua moods house to

1:08:16

confront him that hasn't got

1:08:19

did she get his address

1:08:20

we've arms sperm

1:08:23

so yeah that's just an

1:08:25

example of like just really ah

1:08:27

brainless coverage of this such as is into

1:08:29

the into the history of the site and the

1:08:31

many controversies ah

1:08:34

okay definitely just to cnn serenity

1:08:37

better known by her online user name castles

1:08:39

became the target of a harassment campaign organized

1:08:42

an kiwi farms a notorious online

1:08:44

forum where users are openly transfer back after

1:08:47

she began speaking about trans rights on twitch

1:08:49

a live video streaming platform popular

1:08:51

with video gamers katie based

1:08:54

on what you know

1:08:56

that how journalism has performed in the sorts

1:08:58

of situations it's do six a scrap between

1:09:00

kiwi farms and temples can really be explained

1:09:02

solely by the fact that she was speaking about trans

1:09:04

rights

1:09:05

the

1:09:07

so there they

1:09:10

think old victim blaming it's

1:09:12

real if a woman dissuade that you

1:09:14

ask what she's wearing your victim blaming but

1:09:17

the concept i sort of ballooned outward and is

1:09:19

now just an excuse for people to turn off their bread so

1:09:21

someone could both be a victims but also

1:09:23

be a figure of genuine controversy in those

1:09:25

can both be important parts of the story like

1:09:27

only toddlers think the world is divided

1:09:30

into good and evil and there's others

1:09:32

and journalist and journalists and there's

1:09:34

a tendency in a lot of reporting about online

1:09:36

harassment to assume that as soon as someone

1:09:38

is established as a title of the victims

1:09:41

they should be treated as a safe and everything

1:09:43

they claim that everything should be taken at face value

1:09:45

but that's just not how the world works

1:09:47

as i could see a lot of example of this right oh

1:09:49

yeah this lesson is really important

1:09:52

virtues of couples because it's lead to some really

1:09:54

off base and confused report apple's

1:09:57

is a complicated figure she's done some obviously

1:09:59

good at rent one point she raised i

1:10:01

think two hundred fifty thousand dollars for

1:10:03

this lgbt organization in texas that

1:10:06

seems legit there's , a

1:10:08

kernel of truth of the idea that anyone who's an

1:10:10

outspoken advocate for political cause

1:10:12

on twitter or twitch and you get to begin a platform

1:10:14

is going to come in for some level of

1:10:16

abuse i would argue that's true whether you're

1:10:18

on the lesser right to be sex but

1:10:21

tussles is a very the

1:10:23

grass is sleeps or

1:10:25

other figure she seeks out conflict

1:10:28

with just about every one is

1:10:30

part of her brand see been engaged

1:10:32

in engaged long brutal by internet

1:10:34

skaters conflict with destiny he's an influential

1:10:37

twitch streamer who had seven hundred thousand followers

1:10:39

on that platform me to use make a very good living

1:10:42

in march she got booted off from the platform under questionable

1:10:44

circumstances and apparently

1:10:47

in part as he questioned whether questioned whether penn

1:10:49

transformer leotard the should be able swim and the

1:10:51

women's gym stuff a suite of the following

1:10:54

this is destiny switch channel right now that

1:10:56

with a screenshot of how he was kicked off stay

1:10:58

stevens i just took away your primary

1:11:01

source of income please leave me alone and stop

1:11:03

bullying trans people for contact

1:11:04

even destiny

1:11:06

the would destiny then she follows up

1:11:08

his followers are going to get mad some going to clarify

1:11:10

now that i did report anything and he did this to himself

1:11:13

in all the and all he did was

1:11:15

question whether leader thomas should be allowed

1:11:17

to swim on pens team which she said

1:11:20

and

1:11:20

that was the precipitated a moment

1:11:23

i think they're been one other time when during

1:11:25

like an actual riot

1:11:27

after george floyd he made a remark about

1:11:29

like you said did read next to suit the

1:11:31

riders which

1:11:33

is not good that was a while ago but i think what got

1:11:35

him kicked off was ilia thomas'

1:11:37

they didn't hear laughter

1:11:39

these overall goal last yeah but he

1:11:41

has like what a good heterodox partisan so

1:11:44

that's far from the only example of couples

1:11:46

like seeking out drama and just

1:11:48

consistently throwing rocket fuel on and again

1:11:51

i'm not victim when i'll explain why this matters in minutes

1:11:53

couples the lights in the destruction of

1:11:55

her opponents of that includes threats to dotson

1:11:58

might see straightforwardly pro the

1:12:00

dark seeing as long as the target is a bad person

1:12:02

there's no bad tactics it's just that targets

1:12:05

at one point she tweeted i found

1:12:07

out who the kiwi farms user was who dot my

1:12:09

mother it's and send him a photo of him with his

1:12:11

mother that adjusted by same and he deleted

1:12:13

his town unlike him i'm not pose you

1:12:15

outlined but as he comes back i know where he works

1:12:17

and move forward his entire post history to

1:12:20

his boss

1:12:21

right so she's into revenge

1:12:24

obviously the problem with that sort of vigilante

1:12:26

justice is you're trusting the person

1:12:29

couples of his tastes to make

1:12:31

the right the writer docking the right person

1:12:34

and the person deserves it's have

1:12:36

more recently frederick granted who deserves

1:12:39

a whole episode of zone he was the guy running a chance

1:12:41

which is one the most ah success on the internet but he's

1:12:43

since reforms and he's now fighting

1:12:45

against online harassment including

1:12:48

kiwi farms t , that tussles

1:12:50

brad in a discord chat about telling

1:12:52

someone to kill themselves somewhat

1:12:55

also posted discord chat and which couples

1:12:57

clearly appears to be threatening to dot someone

1:13:00

else this is someone who goes by winter

1:13:02

on tv farms so

1:13:05

winter posted video

1:13:07

of this discord chat with castles total

1:13:10

says i have your face a name i

1:13:12

know what schools you went to i do every

1:13:14

member of your family excited to see

1:13:16

how they all react would your information get sent

1:13:18

to them stuff was also claims they hired

1:13:21

a private investigator to look into this person's

1:13:23

background and tussles drops

1:13:25

the name of many of which is friends and family

1:13:27

members those unclear whether temples

1:13:29

has accurate information they also this exchange

1:13:31

winter how much did you pay for this

1:13:34

info by the way meeting the info from the private investigator

1:13:36

still come out of your go fund me money tussles

1:13:39

winter i don't know how much money you sit i

1:13:41

make but i was going to make six figures this

1:13:43

year before the gulf on be happy and

1:13:45

when did this happen as conversation with winter

1:13:48

this is your last few days

1:13:49

okay okay gotcha

1:13:52

so she seems to be say

1:13:54

where she has plenty of money and is just

1:13:56

putting this goes on me money into savings

1:13:58

will get back it up that wasn't really the tone

1:14:01

of the you tube appear which says like help me

1:14:03

my life is at risk

1:14:04

wait how much was the did she get for

1:14:06

the go funny

1:14:07

the one hundred thousand dollars down so

1:14:11

forces in general isn't really concerned about

1:14:13

daughter you're protecting other people's private

1:14:15

information at one point lose phone jones

1:14:17

posted an address and phone number in ukraine

1:14:20

supposedly connected to accompany

1:14:22

hosting kiwi farms truffles quote

1:14:25

retweeted at and told her followers to

1:14:27

do your thing the any

1:14:29

other context and will be like that targeted

1:14:31

harassment to tweet out in address

1:14:34

and say dude you're saying whatever the context yeah

1:14:36

totally show

1:14:38

your capitals is always involved in drama again

1:14:40

i'll explain why that matters to admit it also her security

1:14:42

habits suck she just seems completely incapable

1:14:45

of taking the most basic precautions to

1:14:47

keep yourself safe online to the point

1:14:49

where her own fans have been like

1:14:51

why do you keep revealing where you are just

1:14:53

fill in front of a green skiing stuff

1:14:55

like that i'm another

1:14:58

wrinkle here is that she has sometimes

1:15:00

at least arguably been dishonest this

1:15:02

includes this includes fundraising efforts as i just

1:15:04

alluded to so when she first one public about

1:15:06

her swatting the first thing she said in that video

1:15:08

is she woke up with a gun in her face

1:15:11

here's a clip of the to way she described the incident

1:15:13

i guess that i was woken up by london

1:15:15

police services

1:15:17

pointing an assault rifle in my says

1:15:20

i went into the hallway and

1:15:22

then saw that assault rifle i

1:15:24

screamed and i

1:15:27

thought i was going to die

1:15:28

okay so this is these are two different

1:15:30

versions of and of the incident

1:15:32

yeah and even though

1:15:34

they're not have ab

1:15:35

we know the first one didn't happen she's walked back

1:15:37

even the latter one is arguably misleading

1:15:40

the chief of police of london ontario

1:15:43

london august eleventh issued a statement he

1:15:45

said that the cops not on the door

1:15:47

midday so maybe she was woken up and she

1:15:49

was she as by naps and that there were armed

1:15:51

officers there but this wasn't there it the a dynamic

1:15:54

and she didn't bars in the door they knocked on knocked door

1:15:57

the such so they knock on the door she opens

1:15:59

the door

1:15:59

the cops are there today like

1:16:02

swarm the apartment or today say miss

1:16:05

castles can we come

1:16:07

in or whatever

1:16:07

is she they just said that she

1:16:10

was polite and they just arrested her because you

1:16:12

know as the time they they were investigating

1:16:14

air but there's no sign of a scary situation

1:16:16

with an assault rifle

1:16:17

i mean it is yeah

1:16:18

the like getting arrested for something you didn't

1:16:20

do that

1:16:21

incredibly stairs of course

1:16:23

but either but she was not woken up soon as far

1:16:26

as we as i say how long as she held that's

1:16:28

a good question i don't know not our ah

1:16:31

it a was results fairly quickly there

1:16:33

are some other red flags in her fundraising efforts

1:16:35

so like i said she raised red

1:16:37

one hundred thousand dollars to go fund me like was

1:16:39

in the video description in the video

1:16:41

couples made certain claims about the uphill battle

1:16:44

she and her fiance will cease to get their stuff

1:16:46

backs and the per carry of their situation

1:16:48

their did a quick cut of other other claims we differ

1:16:50

from that this is

1:16:52

my fiance cell phones and laptops

1:16:55

as well as their external drive which

1:16:57

contain the only copy

1:16:59

their phd thesis and

1:17:01

other important university document

1:17:03

because of the negligence of the point

1:17:05

we were both love functionally

1:17:07

unemployed and i have spent thousands

1:17:10

of dollars replacing our computers

1:17:12

and cellphones so our lives aren't

1:17:14

completely destroyed by what happened to us

1:17:17

even after acquiring a new phone

1:17:19

i still cannot log in the summer my accounts

1:17:22

because the london police

1:17:23

there with holds the found that my

1:17:25

two factor authentication goes to

1:17:27

i need your help because i can't

1:17:29

do this alone

1:17:31

i started a go fund me to move

1:17:33

immediately recoup my losses

1:17:36

build a legal fund to protect my right

1:17:38

i do not yet know when i'm going to be returning

1:17:41

to broadcasting on to

1:17:42

when i was woken up by police

1:17:44

officers and saw the assault rifle pointed

1:17:46

out me i thought i was going to die

1:17:49

i feel traumatized

1:17:50

i just want everyone to know what happened

1:17:53

and ask for help so i can seek

1:17:55

justice

1:17:56

what happened to me ah that's quite a monotone

1:17:59

i'll i like voice sounds like

1:18:01

a terrible situation it sounds like couples

1:18:03

that costs couples a lot of money there

1:18:06

is there is mean her fiance

1:18:09

sounds thought it it sounds

1:18:11

terrible right yeah it sounds terrible

1:18:13

and i think it really gave the impression they

1:18:15

were in some degree of financial need

1:18:17

do you think that's fair to say

1:18:18

early yes read a we

1:18:20

need like why we need the money to get back

1:18:22

yeah that she needed some way they can really

1:18:24

made a living so that video went up

1:18:26

on august nice and

1:18:29

included they claim that they wouldn't get that hard drive

1:18:31

back for months the very next day august

1:18:33

tenth she's a twitch stream that's now titled

1:18:36

i got my stuff back ah hundred

1:18:38

thousand fans she tells

1:18:40

her fancy gotta stop back in a fiance dot they're

1:18:42

supposed to so turned out to take

1:18:44

one day not many months and at

1:18:46

the started out videos your pc claim as she was

1:18:48

assault rifles in the things

1:18:52

though

1:18:54

there were also these leaks

1:18:57

outlaws posted earlier this week the ones with winter

1:18:59

that appears our say they go for me as good god her savings

1:19:01

account until she needs it see just hasn't

1:19:03

really been clear what the fundraisings for she taught

1:19:06

to vaguely about how her rights were violated

1:19:08

but is it it's not

1:19:10

clear what's going on i don't expect someone

1:19:13

who goes through something just dramatic to recall every

1:19:15

detail of perfect accuracy it's but

1:19:17

the story she told allowed her to raise

1:19:19

about one hundred thousand dollars to save

1:19:21

up for something and

1:19:23

it's not really clear what that is

1:19:25

did she have a when you have

1:19:28

a go fund me right you said i'm

1:19:30

mike and targets what was the actual

1:19:32

target

1:19:32

it is loosely goal as a hundred thousand

1:19:35

and or of it gets boosted if you can boost

1:19:37

will on the way

1:19:37

okay so her goal was a hundred thousand

1:19:39

dollars so she told people she needed a one hundred

1:19:41

thousand dollars

1:19:43

yeah unless there's something where you

1:19:45

can start a twenty that when it hits it raised the global

1:19:47

another guy said offered me words ss yeah

1:19:50

i'm so i don't think

1:19:52

it's unfair to point these these are also

1:19:55

never really been clear

1:19:57

why she had to flee to europe which

1:19:59

is like the little things are sitting

1:20:01

here

1:20:02

i can't avoid a fleet a year

1:20:04

of these days so journalists

1:20:06

have this you need a private plane journalist

1:20:08

use her intercontinental travel

1:20:10

to add a dash of mystique

1:20:12

a danger to the stories the headline

1:20:14

of a ben collins article and nbc news goes

1:20:17

into a trance stalkers at kiwi farms

1:20:19

are chasing one victim around the world

1:20:22

their list of targets oh my god

1:20:25

white will display marietta

1:20:28

he said she didn't do that chasing

1:20:30

her on the world she's telling him a she's

1:20:32

telling them where she's going and be she made

1:20:34

the choice to leave

1:20:36

just like she did it on that like why

1:20:39

the london from london ontario she can

1:20:41

see his country kids is gone down this

1:20:42

the ottawa yeah i don't

1:20:44

yeah this would soon so weird about the coverage

1:20:47

is like

1:20:48

no one to come close to explaining

1:20:50

why anything that happened actually required

1:20:52

her going to europe like if she wants

1:20:54

to go to europe by all means i

1:20:56

bet northern ireland's a cool place to hang out this every

1:20:59

year but especially if you're not going to take any

1:21:01

security precautions and you're

1:21:03

you're going with this storyline where your life

1:21:06

is at risk and you have to and you have

1:21:08

to raise money like people are going to ask questions about that

1:21:10

and they're not going to ask questions about that it's

1:21:12

just it's a little weird may also like

1:21:15

they were just a couple discrepancies it

1:21:17

would be one thing but it's not hard to find other instances

1:21:19

of temple's just being dishonest so

1:21:22

like i'm couples has a a

1:21:25

the couples as be whatever whatever has a longer

1:21:27

any beef with lord southern has a history of us like

1:21:29

grotesque alright ball sets

1:21:31

for reasons will get to in a moment lawrence

1:21:34

other to choose couples of grooming couples

1:21:37

responded by saying she's the southern

1:21:39

was on the jeffrey epstein flight logs

1:21:42

and justified it as follows katie

1:21:44

couric that way to start off

1:21:46

this discussion i think i need to show

1:21:48

you all something foreign southern

1:21:50

blocked me after all

1:21:52

this shit she said

1:21:54

after all the fights we got into

1:21:56

he finally blocked me and you know why

1:21:58

she blocked me

1:22:00

because i asked her why she was on the epstein

1:22:02

flight logs that's why really

1:22:05

seems like she has something to hide doesn't it

1:22:07

i think it's it's quite funny it

1:22:10

seems like people really do not like being

1:22:12

accused of being a pedophile

1:22:15

on the internet

1:22:17

that's too bad she would never do the same thing

1:22:19

to me

1:22:20

oh wait

1:22:22

yeah she did she did exactly

1:22:25

that

1:22:26

the when i did it back no

1:22:28

blocks

1:22:29

you can't take

1:22:31

the war in southern lawrence other

1:22:33

was not on the obscene flight logs i

1:22:35

target she was you to hang out with jeffrey

1:22:37

obscene he doesn't hang out with canadian

1:22:40

reporters from rebel leader

1:22:41

that argument obe agency

1:22:43

and my suez lucy like whatever

1:22:45

massage therapist but you can see hotels

1:22:47

that was really say this person

1:22:49

lied about me some of the lie about their right yeah

1:22:52

and and she tweeted the finalizing in finalizing way

1:22:55

where people you know without knowing

1:22:57

the full holidays were going all believe it and spread

1:22:59

it's she also her thing with

1:23:01

destiny got really ugly i'm

1:23:03

not going include a clip of a here but but i watched

1:23:05

a scene from her stream where she chews destiny

1:23:07

of stealth destiny which is secretly removing

1:23:10

a kind of those sex which is rape then

1:23:12

there's a very long pause

1:23:15

as her stream freaks out in the shots

1:23:17

and then eventually she was

1:23:19

it back so he just as

1:23:22

she , like a little bit of a history slipperiness

1:23:24

massage and a willingness use whatever tactics

1:23:26

it takes you know as long as as long

1:23:28

is right okay so on top of all this controversy

1:23:30

there are two other issues that are prominent

1:23:33

in her to we farm century and in the sort

1:23:35

of your dark legend of couples

1:23:37

these are rumors about couples that have spread far

1:23:40

and wide one is the claim that see

1:23:42

groomed miners now

1:23:44

online

1:23:46

you'll notice if he wasn't part of our any

1:23:48

accusation that x groomed why should

1:23:50

be met with extreme caution people throw

1:23:52

the sit around constantly right

1:23:54

absolutely and they use grooming

1:23:56

them the term grooming has really stretched

1:23:59

to now

1:23:59

it also been like idea

1:24:01

hope or indoctrination it's

1:24:03

kiwi farms is gleefully confident

1:24:06

that chapel's groomed people

1:24:08

and they claim they have screenshots to support

1:24:10

a long story mercifully sorts they

1:24:13

don't i have not seen any evidence to suggest

1:24:16

truffles actually groomed a minor scuffles

1:24:18

did run a discord server costs

1:24:22

gabi cat

1:24:24

boy rants

1:24:25

no no no

1:24:27

no no no and physicists

1:24:30

tackler edge had miners are

1:24:32

the rumor she's a groomer rhymes

1:24:35

stems from screenshots suppose

1:24:37

it'll we supposedly lead from there he

1:24:40

, a source that seems to notice they're taught about

1:24:42

told me that those screenshots might actually

1:24:45

have been from another discord server called

1:24:47

sam boy hang out

1:24:49

that would be a good match for you

1:24:52

could grow at some way out

1:24:53

i'm already and at a minute right now

1:24:55

so yes temple rand

1:24:57

is cowboy ranch tap whereas

1:24:59

she did not run symbol hang out but young out

1:25:02

there do some weird unquestionable stuff

1:25:04

that went on to these places including with minors

1:25:06

are but none of it involves couples directly

1:25:08

there is no proof that castles grim

1:25:10

someone and that's and horrible rumor to spread if

1:25:13

you don't have evidence there's one

1:25:15

instance one instance someone posts

1:25:17

a photo themselves and castles does

1:25:20

a little bit like how baba and

1:25:22

like as says their asses thought and

1:25:24

ass with their pronouns are and then everyone's like

1:25:26

this person was under age but it's easy

1:25:28

to know that it's the most marginal case ever

1:25:30

it's it's nothing it's the other

1:25:33

true rumor about shovels is that he

1:25:35

helps to supply hormones

1:25:38

to trans kids without their parents'

1:25:40

permission

1:25:41

that legal jersey

1:25:43

there you go to legality question i think the answer is

1:25:45

no she basically she runs something

1:25:47

called a d i y hrt

1:25:49

directory or she spots is at this is

1:25:52

a resource to help trans people get hormones

1:25:54

including miners temples a

1:25:56

site with a person named chloe ak

1:25:59

at bob post who is even more

1:26:01

outspoken about his efforts for example by

1:26:03

posting one said on twitter it's i got like

1:26:05

five hundred plus miners on hrt

1:26:08

destiny , by calling him an actual pedophile

1:26:10

was idol and to get to that doesn't make a pedophile

1:26:12

it might make you a criminal criminal

1:26:15

you follow the million links flying around

1:26:17

in the temples verse you will likely get

1:26:19

to some dark places who's at least

1:26:21

one company that produces as surgeon

1:26:23

or in this light these

1:26:26

to see sort of animal style boxes

1:26:29

whatever your views on minors and hormones

1:26:32

and puberty blockers this is just like a really

1:26:34

incredibly controversial thing to do or to

1:26:36

talk about online open late people

1:26:38

do not respond well to the idea of adults

1:26:41

helping kids get meditation

1:26:43

behind their parents bass i think that that

1:26:45

is like a good faith concerns whatever

1:26:47

your views on trans issues right

1:26:49

yeah probably not something that you should attach

1:26:51

your name to

1:26:52

none of what i just said i just said a lot about

1:26:54

capitals i just criticized capitals a lot none

1:26:56

of that is to justify her getting harassed

1:26:59

and dogs or to deny the

1:27:01

role a site like kiwi farms undoubtedly

1:27:03

plays in exacerbating everything that's not my

1:27:05

point here is my point the

1:27:08

point is couples is a internet famous

1:27:10

person who has made a ton of

1:27:12

enemies destinies fans on

1:27:14

twitch alone before he got booted constituted

1:27:17

seven hundred thousand people who

1:27:19

are probably you're mostly young and

1:27:21

very our minds