0:11

Jesse, where are you right now?

0:12

You know god damn well. We're here, Katie.

0:14

Yes. Jesse Jesse is in

0:16

his bedroom. I am in his diagram.

0:19

Under my office. Okay. He's in

0:21

his office. Hard to tell the difference because it's

0:23

both rooms are just mattresses on the floor.

0:26

Yes. So we are together in the same

0:28

city, in the same apartment,

0:30

in two different rooms. You wanna explain

0:33

that?

0:33

Yeah. We're fucking idiots. I

0:36

mean, that we have we have a

0:38

level of technical expertise

0:41

that is far below, like, early

0:43

come down.

0:44

I think that my grandparents would would

0:46

have better technical know how and they're dead.

0:48

So so basically what happened

0:50

was Katie's in New York. We did live show

0:52

a couple nights ago. If we were any

0:54

normal podcasters, it's like, oh, we're in the same

0:57

apartment. We'll just plug a couple mics into

1:00

Mitsur?

1:01

Sure.

1:02

We'll sit

1:04

at the same table. We'll have a normal conversation.

1:07

Neither of us knows how to do that.

1:09

so we're in different rooms, recording

1:12

into different mics. It's

1:15

will you it's not everywhere. It's just pathetic.

1:17

We're horrible podcast. I don't know how we have listened to

1:19

it.

1:19

I think this is actually better because this way we don't have to

1:22

look at each other. It's

1:22

just incredibly just demoralizing. Like,

1:24

we're we're professional podcasters to the point where we get

1:26

to live events. We don't know how to plug mics

1:28

into events.

1:29

It's true. It's true. But this way, I've been

1:31

I've been trying my damnedest to not make I

1:33

caught contact with you. We've spent a lot of time

1:35

together this week. We've traveled together.

1:38

I went to your hometown, stayed at your house, and

1:40

I have yet to make eye contact with you. So this

1:42

is better. As long as we can

1:43

I just yeah. I assume that was just

1:45

some cognitive thing. I'm neurodivergent.

1:47

Did you have something else you wanted to say before we got

1:49

into this? I did. I so you wanna

1:51

talk about a live event? Or okay. Go ahead.

1:53

Sure. But let me tell you one more thing. So

1:55

I was just a little while ago, when I

1:57

was taking a walk around your neighborhood, I got assaulted.

1:59

You

1:59

did. What happened?

2:01

Yeah. I was I was walking underneath

2:04

a tree and something fell out of the tree

2:06

and hit me in the head. Was it a hate crime?

2:08

It was a yeah. I got hate crime by a squirrel at

2:10

Pratyger.

2:10

It's like an acorn or what?

2:12

Yeah.

2:12

It was an acorn. I got hit in the head

2:14

by an acorn. This is a people keep talking

2:17

about how New York is is getting more and more dangerous,

2:19

and I, one hundred percent, believe

2:20

it. wait till your your take

2:23

your walk at night by a park and you look

2:25

up and there's a raccoon just four feet

2:27

from you sitting on a branch, like, they're

2:29

surprised you're there. There's a lot of weird

2:31

nature in this

2:32

In fact, is that what you call the homeless people?

2:34

It's very rude, Jesse. Yeah.

2:35

Katie went on a walk in Prospect Park

2:38

in hopes of tracking Dow and

2:40

her words not mine, killing the

2:43

guy who killed Moose and she

2:45

was unable to find him.

2:45

Yeah. For people who don't know what we're talking

2:48

about, my moose is not dead. Another moose

2:50

was killed. You can go back and listen to our last

2:52

premium

2:52

episode. Oh, yeah. People find that a lot

2:54

for me. but they they don't subscribe to our

2:56

Yeah. Fuck on. If you wanna not be terrified,

2:58

become a premium subscriber.

2:59

Well, my most is fine. As far as I know, I did

3:01

leave him home alone for five days, but presumably

3:03

he's fine. I left a big a big hole in the

3:05

bag of the dog food, so he should be able

3:07

to

3:07

eat. Katie, what is the name of this? Technically

3:10

incompetent podcast. This

3:11

is blocking report, and I'm Katie Herzog.

3:14

I'm Jesse Single. And Katie,

3:16

today, we're gonna talk about some

3:19

cancellations. Yes.

3:20

Indeed. We are going to be talking about well,

3:22

is it a cancellation? We're gonna be talking about

3:24

some drama at a literary journal.

3:26

Yes. there were some cancellation there. Well, self

3:28

cancellation people are taught. People are taught. are

3:30

taught. I can't talk. It's been a

3:32

long few days. People left literate

3:34

magazine, we'll get into that. We're also gonna talk about our

3:37

own cancellation. We were literally canceled.

3:39

We were or

3:40

did we cancel? Well,

3:41

We'll

3:42

get into that. But first, how do

3:44

you think the tour is going so far other than this,

3:46

whatever the hell we're doing

3:47

now? If the tour is like the shows

3:49

have been so much better than I expected.

3:52

I had really low expectations

3:53

for this. I was like, can we can

3:56

we charge people twenty dollars for this? And

3:58

then we should have charged, like, twenty dollars

3:59

and fifty cents. Yeah.

4:00

Absolutely. The shows have gone really

4:03

well. I wasn't sure if we would be able

4:05

to recreate the

4:07

magic of the show in person on

4:09

stage, but the shows are actually even,

4:11

I think, more fun than doing

4:13

this alone three thousand miles apart.

4:15

Somehow, somehow. Somehow. Somehow.

4:18

There

4:18

has been amazing energy at boat shows. We're

4:20

recording this on Thursday, having

4:22

done one in Boston on Monday

4:24

night. one in New York on

4:26

Tuesday night. We woke up in my

4:28

childhood home. I did.

4:30

Katie was there. It was, like, some kind of nightmare.

4:32

We are got in

4:34

the car by eight AM with Katie and my brother,

4:37

and we just talked it out. We had my

4:40

brother asked Katie, the

4:42

sort of, like, girl advice question he would

4:44

ask me if he respected me as an

4:46

older brother, but he didn't.

4:48

I am definitely the person to give

4:50

men advice about dating

4:51

women. Yeah. Definitely. So we just we

4:53

sort of talked it out. It was a

4:55

good good little road trip, and then the New York

4:57

show the village underground. Boston

4:59

show was Last Boston was great. The New York one

5:01

was even better. It was like a packed in crowd

5:03

and a sold out venue. Village

5:05

Underground. And, yeah, we're hoping to see

5:07

more people Saturday night, two

5:09

shows at Arlington, and then that's it.

5:11

My favorite part of the show so

5:13

far was at our show in New York. One

5:15

of the there's a a woman

5:18

there who does sound or something like

5:20

that for the venue. She works for the venue.

5:22

Very obviously trans. And

5:25

she was just making small talk with us, and my

5:27

wife was there with us. And so I said, you

5:29

know, I introduced her as my wife. And so when she

5:31

realized don't think she needed me to probably say

5:33

this is my wife to realize that I'm a homosexual, but

5:35

when she realized this, she started

5:37

talking about how we were family and how we were in

5:39

the same tribe and she was giving us like recommendations

5:41

of places to go is that I've never heard of the

5:43

stonewall in. And I just kept

5:45

thinking, this someone has no fucking clue who

5:47

she's talking about, who she's talking to. It was

5:49

fantastic.

5:49

I okay. I I got the

5:52

sense that she was there are divisions

5:54

in the LGBT community, as you know -- Totally.

5:56

-- did it talk talk talker as sort of the

5:58

more old school type of

5:59

trans person who That's just because she's old.

6:02

That's the only reason you're saying that. No.

6:03

She just had that, like, cool, like, older

6:06

Older. LGBTE Elder

6:08

versions.

6:08

She totally did, but

6:09

she I think she would have loved us. I think we would

6:11

have explained to her the podcast. She would have loved

6:13

us. Maybe Maybe. There there is some

6:15

quote, like, the people who work at these venues,

6:17

the people who are there to come see us obviously

6:20

know what we're about. but the people

6:22

who work at the venues who have no

6:24

idea that might be a

6:26

little bit traumatized, disgusted

6:30

by what we have to say. Which is fine.

6:32

They're getting paid to be there.

6:33

Yeah. It it'll be fine. But, yes, the

6:35

live shows have been wonderful. We really appreciate you guys

6:37

letting us do this. But let's get

6:39

into it. So so first, why don't we

6:41

talk about our own cancellation question

6:43

mark? Yeah. Let's start there. Oh, and before I

6:45

start, I should this goes without saying, but there's probably

6:48

gonna be audio issues this episode. We're doing best

6:50

we can, but we apologize if

6:52

Katie sounds even worse than usual.

6:53

Yeah. You're probably gonna hear some sirens.

6:56

maybe motorcycle, maybe a homeless man

6:58

screaming about

6:59

dogs. Oh, poor moose.

7:01

Okay. So, yes, this this event, we

7:03

were supposed to kick off this tour with October

7:05

twenty second event at Dartmouth. We

7:07

did not mean to leave you guys hanging. We

7:09

meant to tell you the story earlier. Stuff came up.

7:11

Katie got sick. We had to play in the tour blah blah blah.

7:14

But this story starts with a guy named

7:16

Bob. Bob's a complicated

7:18

figure.

7:18

And Bob is not his actual

7:19

name, by the way. Bob is not we're not gonna give

7:21

his actual name. We're not that kind of podcast.

7:24

We met Bob at the heterodox Academy

7:26

Conference. Bob works for something called

7:28

the political economy project at Dartmouth.

7:31

And he said, do you want to may become the

7:33

Dartmouth? we said What start myth?

7:35

What start we first we said what start myth college?

7:37

Is that, like, one of those lower tier

7:39

ivies? Yes. And

7:41

the die

7:43

Long story short, we agreed to do an

7:45

event there in part because we could just tack it

7:47

onto the beginning of our tour to these other three

7:49

events at bars or comedy clubs. And

7:53

a couple Mondays ago,

7:55

we woke up and we

7:57

were no longer listed on the political economy

7:59

project on their upcoming calendar. just disappeared.

8:02

Right?

8:02

Well, how did you find that out? A

8:04

couple of people asked me about it, and someone asked

8:06

Carol Hoover about it who is gonna we're gonna do this about

8:08

with Carol Hoover in the harbor evolutionary biologist and

8:10

testosterone aka man juice

8:12

expert. Stop

8:13

saying that.

8:14

This this was has been an issue. one of

8:17

the only hiccups on the toilet has been that I

8:19

started calling testosterone manju's.

8:20

Yeah. He has, like, Tourette's, but his only

8:23

take is that he said Tourette's.

8:24

Yeah.

8:27

So someone pointed out to Carol, I

8:29

think one person emailed or read it message

8:31

me, we were just gone from the

8:33

website. So we're like, okay. So we

8:35

email Bob. He's like he said

8:37

something about there's, like, some transition a

8:39

foot hold we'll we'll have more

8:41

news soon. We're like, Okay.

8:44

We hope everything's okay. It's like, don't worry. The

8:46

event's still going on. We figured it was a

8:48

technical issue or something. We get an

8:50

email from him. that presents this as a

8:52

done deal that the event has changed in a number

8:54

of ways. There are three changes to the event. One is

8:56

it's no longer sponsored by the political economy

8:58

project. We've just been dropped Instead,

9:00

it's being sponsored by something called

9:03

braver spaces, I think, which if you look it

9:05

up, there's no braver spaces or braver

9:07

spaces it's not a real organization.

9:10

We'll get to that. So, Katie,

9:12

that's a problem because we didn't agree

9:14

to do an event with this organization. there has to

9:16

be prior agreement. We are sponsored by this

9:18

organization. Right.

9:18

We had an agreement and we had

9:20

never heard of this organization, which nobody had heard

9:22

of because it literally doesn't

9:24

exist. Right. The second

9:26

thing is please allow the

9:28

event sponsor to suggest minor format

9:31

revisions such as offering welcome remarks at the

9:33

outset and collecting questions from note

9:35

cards. which, like, I don't

9:37

know, in theory, maybe it would have been fine if we

9:39

discussed it, but this is five days before the event,

9:41

and they're they're saying we want

9:43

to change the format of the event. That's also just

9:45

not cool because we had an agreement

9:47

for, I think, six weeks or so. Right.

9:49

And

9:49

my concern with that

9:51

particular change was that we don't know who

9:53

they're talking about. We don't know what this

9:55

introduction's gonna be. Is this somebody who's gonna come

9:57

on stage and publicly disavow

9:59

us. Like, we just need to have

10:01

some idea about what we're

10:03

getting into, and they -- Yeah. --

10:05

didn't give us that.

10:06

Yeah. I mean, so that that was for

10:09

me not as big an issue. The biggest one

10:11

by far was the event was

10:13

no longer going to be open to

10:15

everyone. It was only gonna be open to

10:17

Dartmouth students. And we have an email

10:19

from the guy we organized this with whose

10:21

name we're not revealing, either here in the show

10:23

notes where we show In early

10:25

September, we agreed this

10:27

would be an event that's open to the public. We said

10:29

so over and over and over on

10:31

this podcast, some people, probably not a

10:33

lot because nobody lives in New Hampshire or Vermont, but

10:35

some people from those places were gonna come to

10:37

Hanover hoping to see us. And now we're

10:39

being told five days

10:41

before the event that it's only for

10:43

Dartmouth students. Yeah.

10:44

I mean, my main concern was that

10:46

people were going to show up to the

10:48

event. and we're gonna get turned

10:51

away. And I knew people who were

10:53

driving from hours away, and I

10:55

didn't want them or anybody to

10:57

show up. and get turned away

10:59

because they didn't have a Dartmouth student

11:01

ID. That just we

11:03

wouldn't have done the event for Dartmouth

11:05

students in the first place. Like, this is we

11:07

were doing this to have a public event.

11:09

So Yeah.

11:10

There this was this was not, like, like,

11:12

we went we're going to New Hampshire and

11:14

it it wouldn't the specific

11:17

terms of the agreement we came to involved

11:19

a public event. And five days

11:21

before the event, we're told

11:23

multiple changes I'd be made in including

11:25

this one. So I get on

11:27

the phone with Bob. And basically, what he

11:29

tells me is that

11:31

I believe this is a mundane talkroom. On

11:34

Friday, there was

11:36

word had spread that someone planned to

11:38

protest. At Dartmouth, there's some sort

11:40

of process where you have to, like, get a permit to

11:42

protest, I guess, because it's a private university.

11:44

Someone was gonna protest either us

11:46

or Carol. We have no idea who was gonna

11:48

protest or why. Or how many

11:50

people. Or how many people are. It could have been

11:52

one crank who's gonna hold up a

11:54

sign saying It could

11:55

have been Carlin Carlin Boris saying go.

11:57

Right. I trust her. Someone who's

11:59

just anti

11:59

cargo shorts protesters might take for who it

12:02

was. I

12:02

think there's a big contingent of that

12:04

in wherever Dartmouth is.

12:06

Idaho, I think.

12:08

Yeah. It's

12:08

not it's not a school most people have heard

12:11

of. I think they were just trying to gain

12:13

some flavor. I

12:13

mean, it's literally a community call

12:15

it. Literally.

12:16

Dartmouth College, Dartmouth Community

12:19

College.

12:19

So because we don't know the details

12:21

here, because of some combination of this

12:23

one planned protest

12:25

and perhaps we don't know some people

12:27

within the political economy projects you don't

12:29

like us. Just like that, shit goes

12:31

crazy. We are political economy

12:33

project no longer wants anything to do with us.

12:35

We're dropped from the website without any

12:37

consultation explanation. Bob,

12:39

the guy sponsoring us, he

12:42

created a new group called Brave Spaces at

12:44

Dartmouth College. I guess it's part of a broader

12:46

sort of Brave Spaces movement to have

12:48

difficult conversations. but because the political

12:50

economy project soiled

12:52

itself in fear at the prospect of maybe

12:54

one protester showing up,

12:56

a, we're now being sponsored by a new

12:58

organization we've never heard of and didn't agree to be

13:00

sponsored by b, they're sort of locking

13:02

down the event so that only

13:04

people with the Dartmouth ID can

13:07

come. And it and it was explained to me,

13:09

and and Bob explained a slightly different

13:11

version Carole, that the reason they locked out

13:13

the event is they were worried some

13:15

outside protester would come

13:18

and protest, and that would be

13:20

attributed to Dartmouth students. which

13:22

I found ridiculous for multiple reasons. One is

13:24

I sort of think if anyone is gonna be mad

13:26

at us for holding an event where we say there's

13:29

two sexes, more likely to be a Dartmouth student than

13:31

some random other who knows. That's

13:33

one thing, but also just just like, we

13:35

we can't let everyone into

13:37

the event because someone might do something and then

13:39

someone else might say they're a Dartmouth student

13:41

when they're not. Does that logic make sense to

13:43

you?

13:43

I mean, I think they just pushed out. I think

13:46

they were scared and I can see why they

13:48

were scared because these things

13:50

have gone wrong in the past,

13:52

but it wasn't communicated with

13:54

us while it was

13:56

disappointing. And in the end,

13:58

we figured, look, these are this

14:00

is violation of the contract that we would have had

14:02

if we were spartan up to demand a contract.

14:05

And we're not going to Dartmouth to talk to

14:07

Dartmouth students. We're going to Dartmouth to talk to

14:09

our listeners and our listeners aren't going to be

14:11

able to to come here. So this is not we're

14:13

not so we're not doing it. So technically I

14:15

mean, the

14:15

contract takes a lesson, but we did Yes.

14:17

to be clear, we had a clear email --

14:19

Right. -- agreement. Which is, like, if we wanted to

14:21

be big about this, it is -- It's a contract. --

14:23

that it like, it's an agreement. Yeah. It's A4I

14:25

mean, it's complicated. I assume, but But we

14:27

did learn that we didn't have

14:29

contracts. When you're

14:30

when you're dealing with some commuter

14:32

college no one's heard of.

14:34

Right. you need you need to get it

14:36

down to writing because you cannot trust an institution like

14:38

Dartmouth College to do the right thing. We should also

14:40

say Bob told a slightly different

14:42

version of the story to Carol. They're not mutually

14:44

exclusive, but he said they they just

14:46

didn't know what to do if a

14:48

protest occurred to the building? Yeah.

14:50

Like, they literally didn't know what to

14:52

do. So

14:53

Here's what you do. You have the Dartmouth

14:55

Criminal Justice, some students from the from the

14:57

Dartmouth Criminal Justice Program come and do

14:59

security. Surely, they have future comps at

15:01

Dartmouth

15:01

College. Yeah. Yeah. Or, like,

15:04

some tough kids from the tech vote program

15:06

or, like, the carb. Like,

15:07

the wrestling team. I

15:08

i maybe

15:10

there's something missing there. I found that fucking

15:13

ridiculous because what you do

15:15

is if someone is so disruptive, they're

15:17

breaking the law, you remove them. as

15:19

someone pointed out You muzzle them. You literally you

15:22

torture them in front of everyone, and we can

15:24

sample them. This idea You tickle them. This idea

15:26

that Dartmouth College and its eight billion

15:28

dollar endowment didn't know how to

15:30

handle a potential

15:32

protester

15:33

is is so embarrassing to Dartmouth

15:36

as is this whole event. And I

15:38

just anything comes out of this, I

15:40

hope people realize that

15:42

if you're invited to speak there, you should

15:44

really think twice because they will

15:47

absolutely make your life more complicated

15:49

if there's a hint of trouble.

15:51

And I think Bob was put in a difficult

15:53

position, but to make all these changes,

15:56

without informing us and to expect us to

15:58

be okay with that was ridiculous. They

16:00

also

16:01

seriously balked and dragged their feet

16:03

about paying us and we're still fighting

16:05

over they were

16:06

gonna pay for travel. Katie had

16:08

to take a different flight. They're it's just,

16:11

again, eight billion dollar endowment. They're

16:13

trying to rip us off to the tune

16:15

of FERC a

16:15

couple thousand dollars. Yeah. Jesse, it's

16:17

ridiculous. Yeah. So good.

16:18

I just Googled Braeburger Spaces,

16:21

which until a second ago was what I

16:23

thought the name of the organization was,

16:25

braver spaces does exist. It's

16:27

a quote program that helps college

16:29

employees become conversant with the spectrum

16:31

of LGBTQ identities, cultures,

16:33

and experiences. They

16:35

probably would not have.

16:36

They probably would not have.

16:38

one other thing about this,

16:40

please don't, like,

16:42

figure out who Bob is and go harass

16:44

anybody. This was disappointing

16:46

to us. It was disappointing to the people who were

16:48

gonna who were gonna come to the show. It's

16:50

probably disappointing to the protester who was, you

16:52

know, had maybe already made his her or

16:54

their signs. so the whole thing

16:56

was disappointing, but I don't

16:58

think that I I think Bob is in a in

17:00

a difficult position. I think he tried to

17:02

do the right thing. and really Pory.

17:04

He tried to do the right thing. He hit

17:06

some institutional walls. We

17:08

also probably should have anticipated that

17:11

this was gonna happen with the two

17:13

of us and Carol Huven. And

17:15

so I just I wanna personally ask

17:17

people not to go and write angry emails

17:20

to Bob I think Katie

17:21

and I we don't disagree about Bob.

17:23

Bob didn't hear anything wrong. We can be open

17:25

about disagreeing. I I

17:28

want to be more dramatic about this because I think

17:30

when these institutions do shitty things,

17:32

they deserve to have reputational

17:34

damage inflicted on them, not harassment,

17:36

not threats, but This was a cowardly

17:39

institution. I would not advise anyone to go talk

17:41

there. That's my opinion not necessarily Katie's. Maybe

17:43

we should move on. You wanna cancel them? I want

17:45

to cancel them. I want the family

17:47

members of the cafeteria workers' dogs,

17:49

obviously. I don't want that. I will also

17:52

say that I was a little bit relieved because it was

17:54

going to be in a same amount of travel for

17:56

me. I was gonna I was gonna I was

17:58

landing at six PM. I had to wait

18:00

in the airport for three hours and then

18:02

take a three hour shuttle to

18:04

New Hanover. So it was gonna be like a

18:06

fifteen hour travel day for me, and

18:09

I was sick. So

18:11

Did you say new Hanover? New Hanover, wherever it was. Yeah. That's

18:13

not what it is. What is it? No. But no. But, like, again,

18:15

the we should not have we

18:17

should only go to, like, universities people

18:20

have heard No

18:20

one knows. Anyway, it was like, especially

18:22

because I was sick, it was sort

18:24

of a relief. So so

18:27

unfortunate, but also anytime anytime

18:30

I'm began to do something and it's canceled. Some part of me

18:32

is relieved. I'm an agoraphobe. I'm

18:34

sorry. This

18:34

has been interesting because I always assumed

18:36

that you were fundamentally a

18:39

more petty person than me, but you're

18:41

holding you're holding me back in terms of what

18:43

we say about this and how we say it rather than vice

18:45

versa.

18:45

Well, I mean, I just don't want it I just don't want to

18:47

become a big fucking thing. I don't want anybody to

18:49

get fired. I don't want anybody to get publicly shot

18:51

at this. Just getting fired. I don't want anybody to be

18:53

publicly framed for an unfortunate thing.

18:56

publicly,

18:56

Shane. It wasn't Bob's fault. It wasn't Bob's

18:57

fault. I I just I feel bad

18:59

for Bob. You too. I don't feel bad

19:02

for us. Anyway, we did not go

19:04

to Dartmouth. We're never going to

19:06

Dartmouth. Sorry, Dartmouth.

19:07

What? I don't know. I still don't know. Where whatever you

19:09

are. It is. But okay. Why don't we move on? Should we

19:11

do housekeeping in that It's a hockey team. It's mostly

19:13

a hockey team with, like, a

19:15

tech world college around it. Should we

19:17

do housekeeping? Let's do it.

19:20

This

19:20

is blocked or reported a a podcast,

19:22

usually better production values

19:24

in this. Block to reported podcast

19:27

at gmail dot org, if you wanna reach out to

19:29

us. maybe email us like a YouTube

19:31

guide to plugging mics into a mixer. That'd

19:33

be useful. Yeah. Explain what a mixer is first.

19:35

I don't know if it's a mixer. I have this like

19:37

boxy thing with dials and

19:40

knobs. It could

19:41

be, like, a second. That's a refrigerator. Yeah.

19:45

Redit at blodgerhamport dot

19:47

redit dot com and go to watch and report dot org. Also

19:49

to check out our premium content,

19:51

you get three extra episodes

19:53

a month, mostly not us whining

19:56

about how having been semi canceled for five dollars a

19:58

month. What's the most reason why we

20:00

did? We did an

20:00

AMA that has not been published yet and Oh,

20:03

that'll be published soon. That

20:03

one was good. I gotta edit that

20:05

And before that, we did

20:08

I have no idea. Dog.

20:09

That was Oh, we

20:10

did dog. We did. Yeah. We we

20:11

did dog. Yeah. And

20:13

if you're hearing this before if you're

20:15

preeminent and you're hearing this before Saturday,

20:17

October I mean, it's barely worth it. You won't

20:19

have much time. You might get be able to see our

20:21

late Arlington show on the twenty

20:23

Yeah. Twenty ninth.

20:25

Ninth? Yeah. That sounds right. October

20:27

twenty ninth, Arlington Sydney draft, that was two

20:29

shows. First one sold out second one doors, I

20:31

think nine thirty show at ten.

20:32

It's gonna be good. We're we have a special

20:34

guest coming. We

20:35

do have a special guest. Alright,

20:37

Katie. Let's get back to other people's bullshit.

20:39

Okay, Jesse, until

20:42

recently, did the name Hobart mean

20:44

anything to you? I think

20:45

there's a Hobart and William Smith like Liberal

20:47

Arts school or conservative college or something, but

20:49

no, other than that, no.

20:50

Okay. So Hobart is a literary

20:52

journal that's mostly online, but has

20:54

done some print editions. At

20:56

first, I thought it was called Hobart pulp because

20:58

the URL is holart pulp

21:00

dot com, but it's actually just called Hobart.

21:02

It's been around since twenty two

21:05

thousand one. It publishes poetry,

21:07

fiction, non fiction, etcetera. It's one

21:09

surprises. It's published some biggest names

21:11

including, for instance, Roxanne Gay. It currently

21:13

edited by Elizabeth Allen who

21:15

has been working with Hobart for

21:17

almost twenty years. And recently,

21:20

HOPAR, the journal, and Elizabeth Allen, became a

21:22

story in itself, when the

21:24

website published an interview with a

21:26

writer named Alex Perez, Jesse,

21:29

had you heard of Alex Perez before

21:31

this?

21:31

I had not.

21:32

Okay. So he's a former minor league baseball

21:34

player. He basically aids out of baseball

21:36

and decided to become a writer. He's

21:39

Cuban American by way of Miami.

21:41

So he started out writing fiction, but now he

21:43

mostly publishes non fiction at places

21:45

like tablet, unheard, and

21:47

the spectator. So, Jesse, based on those publications, what

21:49

would you assume about Alex in his

21:51

work? I think

21:51

he is a Imagine me saying

21:53

this with capital letters, a heterodox

21:56

thinker. Yes.

21:57

He's basically anti woke as, like,

21:59

stupid as that term is. And you can Also,

22:01

stereotypically, Alex Perez, baseball

22:04

player. I think Cuban -- Yeah. -- he did not

22:06

woke. Yeah.

22:06

You can you can tell this from the

22:08

subject of some of his work. I looked at his author

22:10

page on Unheard. Here's some of the

22:13

headlines. Hispanic America is

22:15

turning right. How does Santa's toppled

22:17

Mickey Mouse? Why hispanics gave up

22:19

on the left? And why

22:21

Latino stump for Trump? You can sense a theme

22:22

here. Right? Yep. He's

22:24

not using the term Latinx. Which is offensive.

22:26

Yeah. Alex is also a graduate of

22:28

the Iowa writers workshop, which is the

22:30

most prestigious MFA program in

22:33

the country. He's not the typical

22:35

Iowa grad. Like most MFA

22:37

programs, Iowa tends to attract

22:39

people from a certain milieu. that

22:41

is upper class white people. Although, I would assume that they have

22:43

tried to diversify their students and faculty

22:45

in recent years like everyone else, at least

22:48

when it comes to race, if not class

22:50

and politics, Alex is not from that

22:52

milieu. He says in this interview

22:54

that he did with Hobart that his

22:56

mom's reaction when he told her he got

22:58

into Iowa writer's workshop

23:00

was k.

23:00

So Not k as in k.

23:02

Like, okay. k as in the Spanish

23:04

question. What? But what?

23:05

Yeah. She didn't know what I

23:07

riders worship was.

23:09

So for that and other reasons, Alex refers

23:11

to himself within this interview

23:13

as the Iowa Pariah.

23:15

And and that was his experience at Iowa

23:17

was a big part of this interview. It

23:19

was published on September twenty ninth

23:22

under the headline, Alex Perez,

23:24

on the Iowa writers' workshop, baseball,

23:26

growing up Cuban American, MIMA,

23:29

and saying goodbye to the literary community. And it

23:31

got very little attention when it was first

23:33

published, but then two weeks

23:35

later, a Hobart editor named Evan

23:37

Fletcher posted a threat about this on

23:39

Twitter, and then all hell broke loose,

23:41

including the mass resignation

23:43

of Hobart's editors. Okay.

23:45

So this triggers a mass resignation because

23:47

of this guy, Evan Flacher's

23:49

thread. Well, because

23:50

of the interview. So they posted their

23:52

resignation letter on the website.

23:54

but someone presumably Elizabeth Allen pulled

23:56

it down. We do have an archive of the letter,

23:58

thanks to the way back machine, and

23:59

it reads in

24:02

part After

24:03

considerable private conversations,

24:05

Hobart's under sign staff editors are

24:07

resigning from Hobart effective immediately.

24:10

The publication of Alex Perez's interview reflects

24:12

a continued pattern of behavior on the part of

24:14

a single editor, Elizabeth Allen,

24:16

to prioritize attention driven by

24:18

outrage rather than forwarding innovative work

24:20

that adds new perspectives to

24:22

the hobart and the literary community. And

24:25

then they go on to write that one

24:27

reason they're resigning is because,

24:29

quote, Elizabeth Allen has a

24:31

legal claim to be a presence at Hobart

24:33

that cannot be easily altered.

24:35

what do you how do you interpret that? Oh,

24:37

that

24:37

they would wanna have her removed from her

24:39

position because they're so outraged, but they legally can't.

24:41

So they're taking their balls and going home.

24:43

or they're lack of balls. Right? Yeah. I

24:45

think, like, I think what that means is she's

24:47

the boss and they can't fire her because she's above

24:50

them. Yeah. They also write in this

24:52

letter quote, The content that started all this was

24:54

regressive, harmful, and also just boring

24:56

writing. The misogyny and white

24:58

supremacy were treated with empathetic

25:01

engagement. White

25:01

Supremacy? Yeah.

25:02

Alex Perez, the white Supremacist,

25:05

and that sucked beyond measure.

25:07

All this led to attention being taken from the work

25:09

we are proud to have published much of it

25:11

by the very writer's press denigrated in

25:14

his area. And this was echoed

25:16

in an article about this whole thing

25:18

at Litt hub that

25:20

contained this particularly critical

25:22

passage, quote, If these perennial

25:24

banalities, which, like all cliches, have some

25:26

truth to them, were the sum of the

25:28

conversation, nobody would be talking

25:30

about it. Perez and Ellen wrapped

25:32

it up in Trump era, vocabularies

25:34

of grievance, bitterness, anti wokeness,

25:36

self agreement, and crucial to

25:39

some deeply hurtful racism and

25:41

misogyny, plus some of their own tokenizing of

25:43

the working class. They clearly sought

25:45

outrage and they got it Okay. So the person who wrote this

25:47

at Lidhub, his name is Johnny Diamond.

25:49

There's a little picture of him by his

25:51

by line on the

25:53

website.

25:53

Johnny Diamond. Is he

25:55

like a a failed former card show?

25:57

He's a white guy. And I

25:59

do like,

25:59

I don't I

26:00

don't believe in it diditarianism. I think it's

26:02

bad, but I do think there is something a little bit

26:05

funny about this white guy accusing a

26:07

Cuban American and a woman of

26:09

racism and misogyny. Yeah.

26:10

It sounds about right though. He's gotta be a good white man. He's

26:12

Johnny

26:12

Diamonds. What

26:13

was what was so bad about this interview? I

26:16

mean, Shirley, you

26:18

wouldn't call something white supremacist unless it

26:20

was, like, really white supremacist. Right. Right. I'll

26:22

read you some experts that piss people off. You can

26:24

be the judge. So at one part, Elizabeth Allen

26:27

basically asks Alex if there's a

26:29

hegimonian publishing that prevents stories outside

26:31

of the liberal mainstream from being

26:33

published. So she says, quote,

26:35

I think I should be able to write a compelling well written

26:37

story about a pro life advocate

26:40

despite myself personally being pro

26:42

choice or someone who is unvaccinated

26:44

or someone who is brody, whatever that means,

26:46

without anything bad happening to them or

26:48

without them realizing they're wrong and having it

26:50

and having it accepted by a major magazine,

26:53

but you know it wouldn't be taken. And so she

26:55

asked them what his take it on is this. Like, do

26:57

you see this one-sided representation?

26:59

and here's how he responds. This is

27:01

a mindset that views whiteness in America

27:03

as inherently problematic, if not

27:06

evil, and this sensibility animates

27:08

every decision made by publishers,

27:10

editors, agents, white people

27:12

bad, brown people good, America

27:14

bad, men bad, white women, I think bad, unless they

27:16

don't have pussy hat. Alright. I'm gonna skip forward a

27:18

little bit. He says, we know who they

27:21

are. You know two reader. Go on. Whisper it to

27:23

yourself. It's okay. I promise.

27:25

Fine. You can't do it. That's why I'm

27:27

here. The Iowa pariah will say it

27:29

for you. working the gimmick

27:31

already. Here it goes. Eighty

27:33

percent of agents, editors, publishers

27:35

are white women from a certain background and

27:37

sensibility. those woke lady run the industry.

27:39

And contrary to popular

27:42

belief, I don't hate the Brooklyn ladies on

27:44

the contrary, I respect how these passive

27:46

aggressive crude ladies took over an

27:48

industry. Tip of the hot Brooklyn ladies,

27:50

skipping head a little bit. He says,

27:53

these women Perhaps the least diverse

27:55

collection of people on the planet

27:57

decide who is worthy and unworthy of

27:59

literary

27:59

representation. Their worldview trickles

28:02

down to the small journals too,

28:04

which are mostly run by woke young men

28:06

women or bored middle aged housewives.

28:08

This explains why everything reads

28:10

and sounds the same, from major

28:12

publishing houses to Vanity Zins with a

28:14

readership of fifteen. The progressive

28:16

folk Orthodoxy is the ideology that

28:18

controls the entire publishing apparatus.

28:21

Okay, Jesse, what's your reaction to

28:23

this?

28:23

Everything he said is true

28:25

in terms of the controversies

28:27

I've been aware of or covered in the publishing

28:30

world, mostly young adult. He's he's

28:32

making a stronger argument, which is that they

28:34

also apply in, like, xen spaces or

28:36

smaller publishing houses. I

28:38

found And again, it's a bias

28:40

sample because these are controversies. These are what

28:42

know about them. An incredible

28:45

just wave of conformity and,

28:47

like, really, like, drop

28:49

of a hat anger at anyone who

28:51

says the wrong thing politically. Like, some of

28:53

the y a and

28:55

and increasingly adult fiction controversies

28:57

are just bad shit insane.

29:00

And I do think

29:03

women, women do these

29:05

days sort of dominate the publishing industry. I

29:07

feel like we have some stats on this. Right? No

29:09

one no one thinks like the average fiction

29:12

editor is a white dude these

29:14

days. Right? I'm not wrong about that. Right?

29:16

Well, we

29:16

we actually do have some stats on this. So

29:18

I asked a few different people to weigh in. One

29:20

of whom was leased Dine. She's the

29:23

author of of some great books, one

29:25

of which self care, I think we probably talked

29:27

about on the show. It was fantastic. So

29:29

Lisa, let me report and this is

29:31

this is from twenty nineteen. Things

29:33

probably changed a bit

29:35

after twenty twenty. The

29:37

racial reckoning the publishing

29:39

industry, seventy six percent

29:41

white, seventy four percent cis

29:43

women, eighty one percent straight,

29:45

eighty nine percent non disabled. I'm actually surprised there's eleven

29:47

percent disabled people. Wait. Wait.

29:48

Seventy six percent white is the

29:51

total industry. and

29:53

seventy four percent? Sis

29:55

women. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. So it is it is

29:57

truly female dominated.

29:58

Yeah. It is. And

30:00

Lee also said quote, book publishing

30:02

is an elite industry for people who

30:04

can afford to work low paying jobs in in in New

30:06

York City. She also said that she doesn't agree

30:09

with Alex that everything sounds the same,

30:11

but she said I do agree that white

30:13

women in book publishing are looking for writing from

30:15

marginalized voices as long as those voices

30:17

have the correct progressive I

30:19

also I reached out to my own agent about this.

30:21

My own agent, he represents me. He

30:23

is definitely not woke or

30:25

close to it. he disagreed with

30:27

Alex. He basically said, no, that's not what

30:29

publishing looks like. That's not how it

30:31

works. I did however talk

30:33

to someone who works for one to the

30:35

Big five wishing houses. And he said it was, quote,

30:37

a bit over the top at times, but the

30:39

industry is not far off from that. He

30:41

also said that at his publisher, quote,

30:43

There are wonderful liberal white women who have been tortured by

30:45

their supposed racism, and every book

30:47

they considered did often have to meet

30:49

that criteria above that's what Alex

30:51

was talking about. Books

30:53

by white men were often dismissed in language that was like, well, we

30:55

don't need these stories anymore. So I

30:58

think that Alex, he might

31:00

have been slightly exaggerating, but

31:02

I think that there is a lot of truth to

31:04

what he was saying. And this shouldn't be a

31:06

surprise to anyone.

31:06

No. And to me, the saddest part of

31:08

it, and and I'm basing this on, like, emails I got from

31:11

aspiring YA authors three or four years

31:13

ago, it's this really

31:15

sort of sick thing where, like,

31:18

white

31:18

editors or

31:20

agents from privileged backgrounds.

31:23

They want stories from black

31:25

or brown or Asian people, but very

31:27

specific stories. and and stories

31:29

that line up with the white liberal world feel

31:31

about race. And we we saw a great

31:33

example of this when I interviewed Alberto

31:35

Galaba junior. who was not able to sell a

31:37

book that told a very authentic

31:39

torn from his own real life story about

31:41

black college students at

31:43

UVA, University of Virginia, because

31:45

basically it made white gatekeepers uncomfortable.

31:48

So -- Right. -- I've always found that dynamic

31:50

really fucked up because they're they're

31:52

not actually seeking diversity. They're seeking diversity that

31:54

makes them feel good or or maybe maybe makes

31:57

them feel bad in sometimes.

31:58

Right. Right. the

31:59

interesting thing about that case with Alberto was

32:02

that his agent was under the the like,

32:04

he was, what, Filipino,

32:07

Hawaiian, he was Asian American.

32:08

Oh, Galaba is Filipinos. Yeah.

32:10

By way of Hawaii. And

32:13

his agent was interested in

32:15

his in selling his book because his

32:17

agent thought that he was black.

32:19

Yep. And then when he

32:21

when he, like, said, actually, no. I'm Filipino,

32:23

then the agent, like, back and disappeared on

32:25

him. Silence. Yeah. Yeah.

32:27

And I'm I'm proud of

32:28

that episode. So I hope people go back and

32:30

listen to it, who haven't. But to highlight to

32:33

me, was a sensitivity

32:35

reader who was a woman of young woman

32:37

of Caribbean descent who lived in the UK.

32:39

She was

32:40

gonna tell whether or not he was

32:42

being authentic and fair to characters who were

32:44

black Americans in the mid Atlantic region. Right. because

32:46

all you know, because she had the right

32:48

skin color so she can clearly be it's just

32:51

it's it's gross. It's superficial. It's

32:53

incredibly superficial and essential. Okay. So

32:55

there's

32:55

another I wanna read you another section of this

32:58

that made people mad of

33:00

this interview with Alex Press. My earliest influences

33:02

predictably were Bikowsky, Carowac, and

33:04

Hemingway. As the former Jack, I was attracted to

33:06

those guys in their strong masculine

33:09

writing right away. Being Hispanic, so

33:11

you know Diaz, of course, was

33:13

revelatory. You could write about fucked up Hispanic

33:15

shit and white people would eat it

33:17

up. If you're out there, as you know, come back.

33:19

Don't let those angry white ladies who begged

33:21

you for blurbs run you out of the game. No

33:23

say a spenday ho. Okay. Jesse, do you

33:25

remember the allegations against you and Odias?

33:28

Yeah.

33:28

I remember some of them, but you should definitely refresh

33:30

my memory.

33:30

Okay. So this was in May twenty

33:33

eighteen, a writer named Cinci

33:35

Clemens publicly confronted

33:37

Diaz at a writer's conference in

33:39

Australia, She claimed that he cornered her

33:41

and forcibly kissed her while she was

33:43

a graduate student at Columbia. So that's

33:46

that's a salt. That's bad.

33:48

A couple hours later, she repeated this

33:50

allegation on Twitter. She said,

33:52

quote, I was an unknown, White

33:54

Eye twenty six year old, and he used

33:57

it as an opportunity to corner and forcibly kiss

33:59

me. I'm far from the only one he has done

34:01

this to. I refuse to be silent anymore.

34:03

I told several people to start

34:05

at the time. I have

34:07

emails he sent me after work, Barb, that happened, and I have

34:10

receipts. Okay. So she says this

34:12

publicly. Then soon after two

34:14

other writers,

34:16

Karmen, Maria Mercado, and Monica Byrne

34:18

responded by saying that Diaz

34:20

had verbally abused them. Then

34:22

an author named Alyssa Valdez

34:24

wrote a blog post accusing him of massagic abuse as

34:27

well. And this became a huge story. And,

34:29

Dia, and this was you

34:32

the Me Too movement started in, what,

34:34

October twenty seventeen. So this is

34:36

right after sort of this is, like, the

34:38

first first, maybe, second wave

34:40

of allegations? And

34:42

so he issued a statement that became an

34:44

an international story. He so in

34:46

his statement, he said he took responsibility for

34:48

his actions. Here's a quote. This

34:52

conversation is important and must continue. I

34:54

am listening to and learning from women's

34:56

stories in this essential and overdue

34:58

cultural movement. we must

35:00

continue to teach all men about consent and

35:02

boundaries. Big fucking mistake.

35:04

He later said that he regretted

35:06

making this statement and that the allegations against him were false. Now,

35:08

in one case, we do know

35:10

that the allegations were false because

35:13

there's an audio recording of it.

35:15

Have you ever listened to this, Jesse? Yeah. This is

35:17

this was the Macata one. Right? Yeah. So she

35:19

claimed that Diaz

35:20

berated

35:22

her when she asked them a question during

35:24

a Q and A and event in twenty twelve. And someone put

35:26

the audio of this event online

35:30

and you can I listened to

35:32

the whole thing. He disagreed with her. He

35:34

did not bully her originator. This

35:36

one has

35:36

always gotten to me. I know a lot of people

35:39

who like her writing. I actually have one of her boat

35:41

haven't read it. Why why won't

35:43

she just admit that she

35:46

misremembered? Or she I don't know. There's ways for

35:48

her to wriggle this out of this without being

35:50

a liar, but She's never she's

35:52

never done that. Right?

35:52

Not as far as I know.

35:54

And so the the probably, you

35:56

know, the worst of these allegations are that he forcibly

35:58

kissed somebody, and I have reason to

36:00

believe this isn't true, which I'm gonna say on the podcast again

36:02

because I already accidentally spilled this on the

36:04

show once. So I think it's okay if

36:07

I do it again. But basically, a large

36:09

news outlet that you've all heard of investigated the

36:11

claims in Adias and found that

36:13

he kissed Clemens

36:16

on the cheek when she was in a group of people who he

36:18

also kissed on the cheeks.

36:20

I was told this, during

36:23

a, like, stone conversation with a

36:26

journalist who was involved in this and

36:28

completely forgot where I'd heard it and set it on the

36:30

podcast. And then I got a text

36:32

from that journalist who was like, by the way, it was me, you heard this

36:34

wrong. Regardless,

36:36

MIT, where he was employed,

36:39

invested investigated Diaz and clear he

36:41

was cleared by the investigation. That

36:44

doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't

36:46

do it. he's a star faculty member, and so there could be some

36:48

clearly some reason to protect him.

36:50

But I find it very hard to believe in

36:52

that moment, I think you're operating

36:54

from a

36:54

nineteen eighty mindset there. I think I think Yo.

36:56

You didn't let me finish.

36:57

She'd like, in that moment during the

36:59

height of me too, even if he's

37:01

a Pulitzer winner, It would

37:03

have looked better for the university to can

37:06

him than not. Yeah. I I need

37:07

to let women speak. You let

37:09

women speak. Thank you. Yes. Do

37:11

you think that during

37:13

the intro to the Boston show when I went down

37:15

and kissed everyone in the front row on the cheek,

37:18

that was a bad idea. That was not far from

37:20

MIT. I mean, that

37:20

was a little bit weird, but what was

37:22

It was, like, made a little bit better because then you gave all the guys hand

37:24

jobs, so it was, like, very clear that it was an equal opportunity. Not

37:27

all the guys.

37:28

Okay. Just the

37:29

cute ones. Okay. So Alex

37:32

Perez saying, June will come back,

37:34

clearly rub some of the Hobart

37:36

editors the wrong way to fight the

37:38

fact that Diaz has been exonerated by these allegations. And I I

37:40

looked But not in the court of public opinion, that's

37:42

the only one that And I I looked

37:44

him up recently just, like, looked him up

37:46

on, like, Google News or whatever, and he is

37:49

still doing stuff. He

37:51

hasn't completely disappeared from the

37:53

public eye, but his his his

37:55

profile has certainly smaller, I

37:57

would say. We hung out after the

37:59

New York

37:59

show. It

38:02

was like, multiple canceled media people, and it's very interesting to hear

38:04

their stories. So do you know Diaz come on black

38:06

reported? I'm sure he's listening

38:07

right now. Okay. So after

38:10

the editors resigned in mass, Elizabeth

38:12

Allen posted a short

38:14

response of her own to the

38:16

Hobart website. She says, I

38:18

never wanted to run this ship.

38:20

Frankly, I'd rather spend my time

38:22

writing. It is also more than a little

38:24

heartbreaking to watch a mutiny. I have undying

38:26

respect for the founder of this journal that

38:28

one might feel one's livelihood at risk due

38:30

to an interview one didn't even read is

38:32

odd, if not troubling, but perhaps

38:34

evidence of our times. Okay. So

38:36

I got

38:36

in touch with Alex and just

38:38

asked him how he was doing, how he

38:40

felt about this. He said, the mob was hateful

38:42

and intent but it's important to note that I received tons

38:45

of support from riders who started going against

38:47

the mob. I think the mob was surprised

38:49

about this because as soon as they

38:51

receive pushback they started disappearing and going on

38:53

Twitter, hiatus, etcetera. The support I

38:55

saw being harassed.

38:58

The support is important because it signals the shift in the writing world, I think. People

39:01

are tired of the current literary

39:03

routine. I received messages from dozens

39:05

of writers and support, big

39:07

names, and small He also says that Elizabeth Ellen bore

39:09

the brunt of the hate and he thinks it's because she's

39:11

a woman. I'm not sure I agree with

39:14

that because I think that

39:16

a man

39:18

running this interview with a man, especially a white man, would have gotten

39:20

even more Hey. It's interesting. He

39:22

said that because

39:23

he's he's not it's sort of a

39:25

tick. People say

39:28

like, Well, a woman got I mean, sometimes women get it worse, but there's definitely

39:30

situations where men are yeah. Anyway, I'm

39:32

Yeah. I think she got it

39:33

worse because she's the person in power and because

39:35

there's a backstory here.

39:38

So I emailed Elizabeth Allen to try to

39:40

get some comment from her. She didn't respond to me,

39:42

but she did tweet this from the official Hobart

39:46

account. When women piss people off, it's another level of

39:48

anger, rage directed at them than at men.

39:50

There's her sexism. I learned that in

39:52

twenty fourteen. I'm stronger

39:54

now. Words no longer hurt me. I

39:56

hope every woman feels so strong at some point

39:58

in her life. This sunafraid, this

40:00

liberated truly. So Jesse,

40:02

any idea what happened in twenty fourteen?

40:04

No. Okay. So in twenty fourteen,

40:06

she published an essay also

40:08

on Hobart called an open letter to the Internet. This is no

40:10

longer available on Hobart's website, but I

40:12

have an archive of it. And the

40:14

essay came in response to

40:16

another literary handle,

40:18

that very much presages some of the later me two cases.

40:20

So basically, some well known figures

40:22

in the literary scene, including Talen

40:26

and Steven Tully Derek, because I'd never heard of him, had

40:28

been accused of sexual and emotional

40:30

abuse. And in

40:32

her essay, Elizabeth

40:34

Ellen is basically like, look, these guys might be

40:36

assholes, but they aren't rapist.

40:38

And she also admits some of her own pass

40:40

ins, including essentially

40:42

molesting a few children when she

40:44

herself was a child. That

40:46

sounds sort I don't know how to

40:48

put it. It kinda sound like molesting a child and always that she was a

40:50

child. Not that that's not

40:52

terrible, but, like -- Yeah. --

40:54

kinda like

40:55

than canada It's

40:56

a weird thing to it. Yeah. You did I don't think you

40:58

can blame. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she like,

41:01

not like

41:01

a fourteen year old. She was like

41:03

a young child. Okay. So after she published

41:05

this, there was a rash of essays condemning her,

41:08

including one by the writer now known as

41:10

Daniel Lavery.

41:14

and Ellen experience, basically, the

41:16

the two thousand fourteen version of

41:18

cancellation, including a story being a

41:20

story of hers being cut after had already

41:22

been accepted for publication in in an pathology or something. So I'm

41:24

pretty sure that's what she was talking about in her

41:26

tweet, but it seems

41:28

like her

41:30

response and cancel it is neither to apologize fuck up

41:32

about it, which I appreciate.

41:34

Yep. Anyway, if any

41:38

editors looking for a gig hear They're on

41:40

hiatus, but they're gonna come back next year.

41:43

I I found

41:45

it gratify that the

41:48

people scream like the interview. I found it very entertaining. I

41:50

saw why people would be offended by it. Is

41:52

that the end of the world that people

41:53

are offended?

41:55

there's a being offended

41:57

so what? I know.

41:58

That's right. Like unless something

41:59

is is like a personal is attack on

42:02

you personally unless he

42:04

calls you out by name. Like, that's

42:06

one thing. But this sort of like, I'm offended on behalf of whoever.

42:08

I just don't really understand

42:10

that. It's also like the

42:13

the whether

42:15

or not you think he's overgeneralizing. is in fact a

42:17

type of Brooklyn white lady who feels very

42:19

strongly about this topic. And

42:21

you know what? There's also a

42:23

type of Brooklyn white dude. And I I don't think we could forever

42:25

do the same way we're allowed to make sweeping

42:28

generalizations about

42:30

subpopulations of but as soon as you do it

42:32

about a woman, you're a mess he he may

42:34

have been overgeneralizing about the

42:36

situation, but there I know exactly what he's

42:38

talking about. I've met them. Like, it's a type. It's

42:40

okay. There are types of people. He's not making fun

42:42

of them for their race. He's saying

42:44

white people tend to have these politics in

42:46

Brooklyn, which is like I think some of

42:48

the people were mad because they know a

42:50

lot of this is true, especially the

42:52

stuff.

42:52

Again, maybe exaggerated It's

42:54

absolutely true that within the literary community, if you express the

42:56

wrong politics, your career can be

42:59

flocked overnight. So I think

43:01

people are bad because he's you

43:03

know, there's that glint of recognition. Well, it's also kind of

43:05

interesting because in other circumstances, like

43:07

making fun of white

43:10

people is Absolutely.

43:12

It's not just permitting. We

43:14

have to It's encouraged. That's what I love

43:16

about

43:16

this. Like, you can be like -- Right.

43:18

Oh, white people are dying of because of their racist. This is like

43:20

an actual thing people have said, but then

43:23

also some Brooklyn white ladies

43:25

are annoying and intolerant. how

43:27

dare you? Right. It's just Right. I it's

43:29

so I this is

43:32

one of those cases where because I'm immature. And

43:34

as we've mentioned, petty, I got more

43:36

delight out of seeing people meltdown about this

43:38

than I like and then I didn't invest that

43:40

much in