0:11

This is a prepaid call from Jesse

0:14

Single. An inmate

0:16

at the County Correctional Facility.

0:19

All phone calls are subject to recording

0:21

and monitoring. To decline this call,

0:23

press nine now and to accept this call,

0:25

press one now. Thank you.

0:28

Your call has been accepted. Jesse,

0:30

you're calling me from prison? Yeah. How's it going?

0:33

How are you doing in

0:34

there? Are you surviving? How's the food? Do they have vegan

0:36

food for you? It it turns out it's awesome.

0:38

Everything's great. It's so much better. As

0:41

people know, I violated a hippo, which

0:43

apparently you're not allowed to do. And

0:46

I'm in jail, and I don't have

0:48

Twitter, and I'm doing pretty well. Okay.

0:50

So did you join the Latin Kings,

0:52

the white supremacists, the Juboids,

0:54

what gang took

0:55

you? This is gonna surprise you,

0:57

but so many podcasters have

0:59

committed crimes that podcasters are

1:02

the most powerful gang in this particular

1:03

prison. I am surprised. I will say

1:05

I am am surprised. Well, I

1:07

appreciate that you called me collect. This is gonna

1:10

be taken taken out of your your cut of

1:12

money this

1:12

month, but Yes. So you're in prison.

1:14

Mhmm. You left Twitter, anything

1:17

else now? No. I think that's a wrap for the episode.

1:21

It has been a week. It has been a week.

1:23

And, yeah, there's a lot

1:25

to discuss much of it just having

1:27

to do with social media toxicity, which is the

1:30

reason this podcast exist. So I I don't mind

1:32

a a little bit of

1:34

a deep dive into some of what's been going on.

1:36

I I do think that I'm sort of getting

1:38

hungry for some like classic red meat

1:40

non culture or Internet controversy. So

1:42

folks wanna email us some ideas on those front.

1:44

We're all ears. I think our our basket

1:47

is at different levels at different points and we could

1:49

we could use some refilling. And, yeah,

1:51

bonus points if it isn't about culture war

1:53

stuff, just weird unknown Internet

1:55

stuff we should look

1:56

into. But for now, for this episode, got

1:59

a lot to discuss. Yeah. So we had

2:01

prep for today. We had an episode that

2:03

had nothing to do with trans shit. Nothing to

2:05

do with us. Shit that was just good,

2:07

old fashioned, weirdos on

2:10

the Internet. And then more

2:12

stuff happened. So we will be having some

2:14

some good old fashioned Internet bullshit coming up

2:16

very

2:16

soon. But before we get into all that,

2:19

Katie, what is the name of this increasingly solidistic

2:21

podcast? This is blocked and reported, and

2:23

I'm Katie Herzog. And I'm Jesse Single.

2:25

And before we get to our own bullshit,

2:28

we have

2:29

a frequent occurrence on the spy cast, which is

2:31

a major underwear

2:33

update. We do. I don't know if this counts as

2:35

correction or just that maybe a clarification. But

2:38

in

2:38

our last We'll be we'll be brief. We'll be brief.

2:41

I think we're updated. In our last episode,

2:43

our last preeminent episode, this was a free preview.

2:45

So let's just assume that everyone heard it and

2:48

knows what we're talking about. But in in that episode,

2:50

I was in Utah and Jesse, you made some,

2:52

frankly, pretty disrespectful and I think

2:54

downright ignorant comments about temple garment

2:57

garments, or as you call them magic

2:59

underwear, which is an under garment

3:01

worn by

3:02

Morinth. Yes. And you on the other hand were

3:04

very respectful if not referential toward

3:06

this magic underwear and you did not make any rude

3:08

comments about the

3:09

bulges. Of Mormon men.

3:11

Jesse, I think saying that Mormon has a giant

3:13

package. It's not disrespectful. I think everybody likes

3:15

us.

3:16

If anything, it gives Mormon bed

3:18

the credit for their the

3:19

credit driving parts.

3:20

Anyway, we're off to a bad start at getting more respectful,

3:23

but but continue. Well, it turns out

3:25

that we have a number of Mormon listeners

3:27

surprise, surprise, and they all wrote

3:29

in to educate us. And here's what I learned

3:32

from their emails. First of all, don't call the

3:34

Mormons. My bad. They don't like that. They

3:36

prefer latter day saints, which I agree,

3:38

has a nicer ring to it. And as

3:40

for the undies, here's what one listener said.

3:42

As a practicing

3:44

member of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter

3:46

day saints, I always thought that the garments were

3:48

mostly a way to enforce modesty when it came to

3:51

clothing choices. If your clothes cover the garments,

3:53

then you're good to go. This is something explain

3:55

garments to people as something similar to the Muslim

3:57

hijab. We just wear our version underneath

3:59

our clothes. I appreciate that. As everyone knows,

4:01

I'm a Muslim. I'm a Jabby and wearing one right

4:03

now. Mine looks like a camo

4:06

baseball hat, but it actually is a job.

4:08

Back to letter, I think that the protection

4:10

it offers is probably in that it protects

4:12

you from having sexual encounters on a whim.

4:15

If you have to explain your weird religious underwear

4:17

to someone you're about to have sex with, I can imagine

4:19

it would kill the movie pretty fast. So

4:21

I guess that's like a a chastity belt

4:23

kinda, but made out of cotton. Yep.

4:26

Technically, you also promise in the temple

4:28

to be chased except for within your legal heterosexual

4:31

marriage. So if your intention is to be

4:33

unchraced, then you have to take off the garments that

4:35

represent the promise you're about to break. This

4:37

I hate to bring Twitter back and everything. This

4:39

reminded me of Twitter, that extra

4:42

step where you have these complicated undergarments

4:44

to undo if you're gonna bang

4:46

out. That reminded me of when I

4:49

would it doesn't remind me of anything involving me

4:51

in Sysco. I've never done that. Seems gross.

4:54

But it does remind me of when I tried to change

4:56

my own Twitter password and hide it for myself,

4:58

to lock myself out of Twitter. So you

5:00

can still get into your own Twitter account

5:03

if you do a password reset, but that's thirty

5:05

seconds of fumbling and, you know, it

5:07

it instills some shame and humiliation. And

5:10

so I I think that's sort of the online equivalent

5:12

I'm struggling out of your undies is

5:14

changing your Twitter

5:15

password.

5:15

Okay. Wait. Did you like change the password

5:17

to something random? How were you trying to

5:19

have it? I

5:21

copied and pasted it to something

5:24

random. And then, like, reset the account.

5:26

Well, I yeah. I forget exactly how

5:28

I did it. Either I just didn't

5:30

know what it was or I put it away

5:32

somewhere. But then, like, if I really wanted to get

5:34

on Twitter, I could just it. It seems to me that an

5:36

easier way to do this is just to forget your

5:38

Twitter password like I do daily. But back to the

5:40

undergarments, at one point, I said that I tried

5:42

to buy them at Target. This is a lie. I didn't try to

5:44

buy them at Target. But we got a a listener

5:46

writing about that and this person said,

5:48

no, you can't buy them at Target, but you can get them

5:50

at nearby strip mall in the Churchroom bookstore

5:53

chain called Deseret book. However, you have

5:55

to bring your recommended card that is signed by your bishop

5:57

and is verified in their online database

5:59

to make a purchase. Yes, Facebook

6:01

Mormons are card carrying members. He

6:03

also adds global supply chain shortages in

6:06

twenty twenty one even hit garment suppliers

6:08

and the church implemented a five pairs limit

6:10

per

6:10

purchase. What if you're just like a total

6:13

nerd and you go to your bishop

6:15

and you're like, I need the magic wand to work so afraid

6:17

of sexual temptation of the

6:18

bishop. Just like that's not gonna be a problem for you to

6:21

You sound like you speak from experience, Jesse.

6:23

I'd also like to add one more thing here.

6:26

I genuinely love Mormons or

6:28

latter day saints or whatever they wanna be called. For

6:30

my actual in person encounters with people from

6:32

s group, they have just they've always been incredibly

6:35

kind, lovely people. Also,

6:37

I follow a bunch of Shupe hot, blonde,

6:39

Mormon, LDS, whatever influencers who

6:42

live in Hawaii, and they post videos of

6:44

their kids on Instagram for a living. And there's

6:46

so much about this that would be considered absolutely

6:48

problematic. Like, they exploit their

6:51

children by putting them on Instagram and making

6:53

money off of it. They live in Hawaii.

6:55

They don't have they don't seem to have encounters

6:57

with any actual native Hawaiians. There's

6:59

no land acknowledgments. They

7:01

have they're just like blissfully unaware

7:04

of this. There's such a joy to

7:06

follow. And I also like that they don't

7:08

drink alcohol and yet they have these like sober

7:10

parties where they're all laughing until they're being themselves,

7:13

peeing their their their undergarments. It's

7:15

very refreshing. I love these people.

7:18

I do think that Mormon should be cooler about both

7:20

Forys and gay marriage though. Yes. The two

7:22

the two civil rights battles of our time. Mhmm.

7:25

Yeah. I no. I disagree with so many aspects

7:27

of their lifestyle and belief system, but I was thinking

7:29

about how much better life would be we all

7:31

acted just a little bit more Mormon.

7:34

Like, we made fun of their church

7:36

and belief system in their underwear, and their

7:38

response was just to write as very polite emails,

7:40

being like, hey, I'm a fan of the podcast. I just wanna clarify

7:43

couple things. About my undies.

7:46

But just to increase the probability, we'll start

7:48

some sort of holy war. Can I contrast their reaction

7:50

to how some other Christians

7:52

have responded to her podcast? Alright. Sure. This

7:54

is an occasional thing. It hasn't happened that often,

7:56

but it's always jumped out at me. I might have even mentioned

7:59

it before. We've gotten a handful of complaint

8:01

emails over the years for

8:03

how we've treated Jesus. Now

8:06

as a Jewish man, this isn't new to me.

8:08

We made some Jesus jokes. I don't even remember

8:11

them, but this is always bugging me because

8:13

it's like what haven't we made fun

8:15

of on this podcast. We've made.

8:17

Jude Jones, Holocaust Jones, Anti

8:20

lesbian jokes. Katie,

8:22

as I know from the last few days I spent on Twitter, you're

8:24

basically a one woman hate crime festival So

8:26

non binary people. So Apparently. It

8:29

just doesn't make sense to laugh along

8:31

with all these other jokes and then be like, oh,

8:33

Jesus, you said Jesus was like

8:35

hot or whatever, that's too far. I

8:37

think you gotta take the go with the bat. And

8:40

to be clear, this is not what the Mormons were doing

8:42

or the LDS folks doing. They just sent us friendly

8:44

emails, and friendly emails are

8:47

always welcome. Plus traces

8:49

former Morin.

8:50

Basically we're basically family

8:52

by association.

8:53

Yes. Our podcast is Mormon Influencers.

8:55

Another interesting thing about Mormons is that

8:57

they are really big into

8:59

genealogy. Like, they own ancestry dot

9:02

com. I don't know why this is. Maybe it's so

9:04

they can posthumously. Wasn't this a thing? They

9:06

were, like, posthumously. My

9:07

god. Holocaust. Yeah. Yeah. That's not cool

9:09

either, Mormon. It's a gay marriage saying the posthumously

9:11

Mormon. Yeah.

9:14

It's like when people posthumously trans budge

9:16

women warm Positively. Positively.

9:19

Positively. Hold on. P0STUMATLEY,

9:22

and I Katy Herzog Neo Logistics. You

9:24

cannot even spell the word. Say the word Hannah,

9:26

give me a value break. This is like when people,

9:29

awesamously, it does say right that

9:31

time. Trans, Butch

9:33

lesbians. Mormons do

9:34

this, but with people like Frank. But

9:36

actually, for a good cause, they just want them to

9:39

be in heaven, I think.

9:40

Yeah. Okay. I'm cool that

9:42

you guys can possibly do whatever

9:44

you want more, but Look, you're just

9:46

they're just hedging their bets. You don't know if it's a if

9:48

did you heaven? You don't know if it's Mormon heaven,

9:50

whatever? And honestly, which heaven

9:52

would you rather be in, Jesse? Like a bunch of

9:54

people, covetching, or a bunch

9:57

of

9:57

people, don't know, helping others.

9:59

What do you think? I bet Jewish Evetet has

10:01

a lot of like Man of Shevets and dancing,

10:03

but also like mommy issues and argue

10:05

I would not do well Mormon, I've been I'm not

10:07

gonna lie. I'm sorry, Mormons. Don't don't positively

10:11

sabotage me or whatever. III

10:13

think just because I grew up in such different circumstances,

10:16

your heaven would be boring

10:18

to me. And I don't mean that in negative way.

10:20

Like, my heaven would be crappy for you

10:22

because you can't drink and you're not sad and

10:24

stuff. But I just think we have different heavens and we should

10:26

leave it that way. believe in heaven segregation

10:29

is what I'm saying. Well, I will not see

10:31

you because I will be in Muslim heaven.

10:34

No. I'll be in Muslim heaven with

10:36

my seventy two versions.

10:38

Uh-huh. Well, do you this

10:40

remains the most

10:42

underdeveloped and unexplained part of

10:44

Barpod Canada. There's like a veritable

10:46

well of literature and references on like horse

10:48

fucking. The Muslim thing we've

10:50

just run with it without explaining it all. But let's

10:52

just let's just leave it back there. I have a conversation.

10:55

What's there to explain? Very little.

10:58

Okay. Is that enough for underwear updates? Yeah.

11:00

Let's move on. Okay. So we're gonna talk

11:02

about Twitter. Katie, I now

11:04

speak to you from a position of heightened

11:06

moral clarity. In prison? I am

11:09

in prison nonetheless. I am

11:11

more than ever before. I am better than you.

11:13

That's because I left Twitter a

11:15

few days ago. I shut down my

11:17

account. Alright, Jesse. Before we get into

11:19

the details, anyone who didn't

11:21

listen to our last Primo episode or the

11:23

preview of our last Primo

11:24

episode, what's the really, really short

11:27

version of what led up to this entire

11:29

controversy? I

11:30

mean, I would ask them a question, which is why they

11:32

aren't a premo. That's ridiculous.

11:33

Great. Great question. Great question. That being

11:35

said, they're real they're

11:37

really short version. Jamie

11:40

Reed 156 seconds ago.

11:42

Jamie Reed's, it was a what? Jamie Reed

11:45

is someone who worked at a gender clinic at

11:47

Washington University of St. Louis, and

11:49

she saw whistleblower status. Through

11:51

the state of Missouri as you told me to pronounce

11:53

it? Yes. She was a a

11:56

case manager there, and she said she saw lot

11:58

of really egregiously bad practices in which

12:01

Shupe claimed kids were sort of rushed into medical

12:03

treatment without sufficient care. I

12:06

got in contact with her and I've published two articles

12:08

about her on my SubSack. One was

12:11

a critique of two articles that came out

12:13

that were widely seen as having debunked what

12:15

she said. I I called into questions of issue

12:17

with the reporting. Folks

12:19

can read it. Between the

12:21

first one and the second one, I announced

12:24

on Twitter that I was leaving. This was March ninth.

12:26

So the day after that, I published the second of the two

12:28

I've published so far. This focused

12:30

on one particular claim from

12:33

Reed's Alpha David I'll just read this

12:35

this one paragraph of the affidavit. One patient

12:37

came to the center identifying as a, quote, communist,

12:39

attack, helicopter human, female, maybe non

12:41

binary, end quote, The child was in very

12:43

poor mental health and early on reported they had no idea

12:46

their gender identity rather than treat the child

12:48

for their serious mental health problems. The center put

12:50

the child on cross eyed hormones that ignored child's

12:52

obvious mental health problems. The child subsequently

12:55

reported that their mental health actually was worsening

12:57

once they started the cross sex hormones. People

13:00

freaked out at that because they're like, oh, hell

13:02

it the helicopter means a joke. I I

13:04

identify as an tech hall attack helicopter as

13:06

a joke. She didn't get the joke.

13:09

So Or they

13:10

not that they she didn't get the joke, but that she made the

13:12

joke. She made it up. Right. I mean, it varied.

13:14

There's been a lot of switches of of what

13:16

people are claiming. So

13:19

I sort of got the story from her and she told

13:21

me some specifics about what

13:23

happened. The language in question came

13:25

from a referral letter from a therapist. And

13:28

the response to this article, which

13:30

I thought was definitely worth publishing because it

13:32

it was her going on the record in much more

13:34

detail than she had. And I I did give the hospital

13:36

chance to respond. I unsurprised him

13:38

they didn't, given their facing being shut down,

13:40

read, want some down. The response

13:43

was to accuse her of a lot of

13:45

HIPAA violations or patient privacy breaches.

13:48

We can do. And then Right.

13:50

So so it was misguided.

13:52

That's why you're in prison right now. That's why I'm

13:54

in prison right now because right. A lot of people

13:56

said, I violated HIPAA. They

13:58

spelled it HIPPA, which is a misspelling.

14:01

I can't violate HIPAA. I'm a journalist. I'm

14:04

not subject to HIPAA. HIPAA. Can

14:07

you We will rewrite HIPAA

14:09

to make it more fan journalists. It

14:13

was just real online insanity,

14:15

and it coincided with

14:18

my pre planned Twitter departure. So

14:20

Great timing. As I pointed out in a little

14:22

subside post I did announce to my departure, one

14:24

of the weird things about leaving Twitter if you have a lot

14:26

of followers, is it immediately invites

14:29

feverish speculation about why you left Twitter because

14:31

of course no one could just leave Twitter. That's crazy.

14:33

It's the greatest place on Earth. Right. So

14:35

what happened was I left Twitter and

14:38

a bunch of people began to speculate. But

14:40

you, my faithful friend slash

14:42

nemesis. You kept a very close eye on what

14:44

was happening after I left

14:45

Twitter. I

14:46

think weirdo sidekick. I think that's what that's

14:48

the official terminal. Thank you, Sam Sieders.

14:50

Freakish freakish weirdo side.

14:52

Yeah. Anybody who is interested in the

14:54

details of this, check out Jesse's reporting. We

14:56

will put links in the show notes or

14:59

go ahead and listen Well,

15:00

don't don't. If you read it, that's a HIPAA violation.

15:02

You go to jail. So Jesse, this is a very

15:04

expensive collect call. This is really I'm

15:06

taking this all out of your paycheck. But yes,

15:08

I was watching what happened.

15:10

Why don't we start? The Twitter focused

15:12

remainder of this podcast by explaining what

15:14

happened Wednesday morning the morning after

15:17

I

15:17

deactivated. What were you seeing on Twitter, Katie,

15:19

that caused you to text me so rudely

15:21

and repeatedly?

15:24

You were trending on Twitter, Jesse,

15:26

and not just that. Was

15:28

it because everyone was They're sad about

15:30

how good my journalism is? You know what it

15:32

was? It was because everyone was so impressed

15:34

that you left Twitter to protest Elon

15:37

Musk buying the platform, that it was just

15:39

everybody just congratulating you. Look at this

15:41

Twitter at he was so upset about what

15:43

Elon Musk has

15:44

done, he actually left. No. That

15:46

is that is an angle I had a thought about, which is

15:48

think about all the people who are like, This isn't

15:50

tolerable. Yeah. I'm leaving Twitter

15:52

and they're all still there with

15:54

links to their unused Mastodon accounts in their

15:56

profile.

15:57

Yeah. You were trending. It was really bad.

15:59

It was I saw a couple

16:01

of the more egregious tweets was an

16:03

editor. In Philadelphia from an

16:05

actual publication in Philadelphia.

16:06

Name him. Name him. This is Philadelphia magazine.

16:09

Bradford something. Bradford Pearson.

16:11

What did he say? What did Bradford Pearson say?

16:14

He said that you and Jamie Reid,

16:16

who's a subject of your recent

16:17

reporting, should be prosecuted So he's

16:19

the new president of the SPJ,

16:22

which is the Society for prosecuting

16:24

journalists. Nice. She's the reason I've been Joe right

16:26

now. Yeah. Bradford Pearson at

16:28

at Bradford Pearson, called for

16:31

another journalist to be prosecuted, which

16:33

is something I'm not gonna lie. Can I make

16:35

an embarrassing admission? Sure. I

16:37

emailed him and a couple of the top editors that

16:39

Phil I was just

16:40

like, I've seen a lot of weird

16:42

AUCC seen his bosses, Karen.

16:45

I am a Karen. I've seen a lot of weird shit

16:47

in my many years in journalism. I don't think

16:49

I'd ever seen another journalist call

16:51

for me to be prosecuted for my journalism, but

16:54

I didn't hear back and I believe, tap

16:56

tap tap. The thread is still up.

16:58

I'll be it with a lot of responses. Pointing out that

17:01

maybe it's not good to call for journalists should be to

17:03

be in prison. So one more time, that's Bradford Pearson

17:05

at Bradford Pearson calling

17:07

for me to be in prison, but we can move on for

17:09

that. Or sorry, prosecuted. Not maybe

17:11

he's just saying I should have a fair trial where I'm

17:13

subsequently acquitted. Oh, yeah. Totally. Totally.

17:16

Look, it is it is a ballsy move

17:18

to come out against the first a moment

17:20

as an American

17:21

journalist, but he did it. He did

17:23

it. Congratulations to Bradford

17:26

Pearson. At RADF0RDPEARS0N

17:30

dot

17:30

com. Polite question's

17:32

only too Bradford Pearson. Yeah. So there

17:34

was A lot of stuff like that,

17:37

business waffles requested a free

17:39

subscription. Dude,

17:42

I Lisa, we're in such

17:44

a quadri Can we talk about our business

17:46

waffles quandary? Yeah. If

17:48

you go to to business waffles, Twitter,

17:51

and and business waffles is the person

17:53

who started the massive pile on. Of you.

17:55

Yeah. About claiming massive hip massive

17:57

obvious hip violations on J. B. Reid's part. To

17:59

listen up, scandalize. We're not. Yeah. So

18:03

The problem is, I want to make fun of business

18:05

waffles. If you look at business waffles timeline,

18:08

us paying attention to business waffles

18:10

is the best thing that has ever happened to professor

18:12

business

18:13

while. Yeah. It's all they tweet about.

18:15

So we're in a bind here because we want

18:17

to make fun of this ridiculous account But

18:19

we're giving this is gonna be theme

18:21

today. We'll get you later. We're giving Professor

18:23

Business Waffles what Professor Business Waffles Wants. So I don't

18:25

know what to do. Alright.

18:26

You wanna complete moratorium on on all business

18:28

Waffles talk from now on.

18:29

Can this can we can we yes.

18:32

From this well We have a list of people who

18:34

we will never mention again. We can put business waffles

18:36

on Do have that one? The list only has one yeah. It

18:38

only has one person on

18:39

it. Who's that? I'll text you. No.

18:41

Say it. We'll leave it. Yes. That is a good

18:44

I didn't realize we'd agreed to this. Okay. Here's

18:46

how the here's how the business waffle

18:49

boiler boiler is gonna work. Right now, through

18:51

verbal handshake, we're agreeing to never mention business

18:53

waffles again. Except if we

18:55

mutually agreed to rescind the moratorium.

18:57

That's fine. But either of us has veto

19:00

power. Again, it's further mentioned to people's calls. I'm

19:02

gonna say that name three more times because I do think

19:04

it's

19:04

funny. Business Waffles, business Waffles,

19:06

business Waffles. That's it. Business Waffles

19:08

was not granted a free subscription. If

19:11

business Waffles wants to hear us talk

19:14

about Shupe

19:14

they. Yeah. She can actually just listen to this. She doesn't

19:17

even need to pay. We're doing it right now. But

19:18

that's it. No more mentions. We're passive, but you literally

19:21

cannot say the name of Yeah. And so so in addition

19:23

to business waffles asking

19:25

for charity. No. You that's how

19:27

shit. But you said that's it.

19:28

We're not much of the name anymore. How hard

19:30

is this? In addition to Okay.

19:31

How this? What do you want? What do you

19:33

want to say business waffles,

19:36

say party

19:37

waffles as code. Right. In addition to

19:39

party waffles asking

19:41

for charity, which seems anathema

19:44

to the business of waffles. It's called

19:47

bootstra party waffles. And

19:49

the Philadelphia editor calling for your

19:51

literal prosecution. You

19:54

trended for a few days. There were some

19:56

really fucking aggravating tweets.

19:58

And and the theme seemed to be that

20:00

people thought that they had

20:02

successfully bullied you off of

20:05

Twitter I have to say, I

20:07

find this a strange thing

20:09

for adults to brag about. It's

20:12

odd. We got them,

20:14

guys. We bully him off of

20:16

Twitter. And in fact, that is not actually

20:18

what happened. But of course, that didn't matter at all. Yeah.

20:20

The two the two prevailing theories I came

20:22

across and and I still need to yell at you, which

20:24

I'll do in minute that you even alerted

20:26

me to any of this. One was that I left

20:28

was leaving Twitter because I I had committed

20:31

such egregious HIPAA violations that I was

20:33

covering my tracks by deleting

20:35

my account. saw that, which doesn't

20:37

really make sense because the article where this

20:39

happened. I I left up because, of course, I did because

20:41

I I can't vibrate it, but I'm a journalist. And

20:44

then the second one was that I was so

20:46

embarrassed because I didn't recognize

20:48

ICE's actually identified as a attack attack helicopter

20:51

as a meme -- Right. -- that the Shupe drove

20:53

me off Twitter when

20:55

the article in question mentions

20:57

in, like, the third paragraph. This is

20:59

a meme, and we've talked about eleven's podcast,

21:01

and I've written about

21:02

it. So -- Yeah. -- and you are

21:04

so fucking online, like, these people they

21:06

clearly have no

21:07

familiarity with your actual work.

21:09

It

21:09

was Wednesday morning, and I had

21:11

finally Wait. Wait. Before you get into this,

21:14

let me tell you one more one more theory.

21:16

This one this one was a guy

21:17

named, awful day trader. He's been in my mentions

21:20

lately.

21:20

Awful day trader. He says,

21:22

I'm sure being subpoenaed and deleting

21:25

his account are two completely unrelated

21:27

incidents. Subpoenaed, Jesse. Dude,

21:29

I forgot the very best one. Let me pull up. I sent

21:31

it to myself. So

21:34

you've been you so what I'm taking from this conversation

21:36

is that this whole time that you've been off Twitter, you've been

21:38

on Twitter

21:40

watching people say terrible things about you.

21:42

No. No. No. No. I this was the evening

21:44

of March fourteenth when I shut down. I was, like, about

21:46

to go meet someone a bar for drink. And I

21:48

tweeted,

21:50

basically or Tuesday night, I was like, you

21:53

know, fuck. I didn't say fuck this. But fuck this. I'm

21:55

just gonna shut down my account now. I don't wanna come back from the

21:57

bar little bit buzz scrolling on Twitter. I'm done with

21:59

this. So I tweet that. I'm gonna

22:01

shut down my account in a minute. Here

22:04

Here's the last tweet I responded to.

22:06

Before you deactivate, Why don't you

22:08

explain why you violated thousands

22:11

of transcript medical privacy

22:13

by sharing their information with the politicians?

22:16

What the thought So the level of

22:18

games games of telephone games

22:20

of telephone where the reality, which

22:23

is that no names were shared because

22:25

I don't have the names of any of these kids because

22:27

Jamere didn't share them because she's

22:29

competent, whatever else you say about her. Before

22:32

you do activate, why don't you explain why

22:34

you violated thousands of trans kids' medical

22:36

privacy by sharing information with the politician? It was

22:38

like it was like I was on the roof of an

22:40

embassy where the insurgents had just

22:42

overrun the American occupation. I'm the last

22:44

guy off the helicopter and this is the last person,

22:46

like, taking shot. It was like, it's so crazy.

22:48

And, yes, that was a very offensive analogy

22:51

I just made, but No. It's just

22:53

like that. I was mad at you though because the next

22:55

morning, Wednesday morning, I woke up. I'm off

22:57

Twitter and you're texting me

22:59

feverishly, basically saying,

23:01

that's what you're saying, I shouldn't have left with

23:03

her and that I have to respond -- You shouldn't -- that I

23:05

have to respond to the No.

23:07

That's not what happened. You were trending on Twitter. I

23:09

really hear okay. I really think

23:11

that leaving Twitter not leaving Twitter for

23:13

your own mental health, like, it's fine that you're

23:15

not on Twitter. I really think that the leading your

23:17

account was a unforced

23:19

error. I think this was a mistake, and there's a couple

23:21

reasons why. First of all, is

23:24

because it gives people these people who

23:26

are lying about you, it gives them exactly what

23:28

they want. It looks to them like

23:30

they successfully bullied you off of looks

23:33

like they want and gives them

23:34

joy. That okay. So that gives them what they want but

23:36

the alternative in which inevitably I

23:39

start angrily tweeting at them and

23:41

one out of every six of my angry

23:43

on tilt tweets contain some dumb

23:46

little error or I don't phrase things

23:48

perfectly, and then they screenshot that, and

23:51

it's five thousand more. That that's also

23:53

giving them what they

23:53

want. This is temporarily giving them what they

23:55

want in the service of a greater good.

23:57

No. I'm I think it's If you're not on Twitter,

23:59

I think it's fine. It's bad for this podcast, but I think

24:01

actually it's fine. Like, we haven't enough shit to talk about with

24:03

Reddit, and

24:04

Instagram, and TikTok, whatever. You don't need You can

24:06

still talk about Twitter, you can still read Twitter.

24:08

Okay. But I'm saying deleting

24:11

not getting off of Twitter, but deleting

24:13

your account. That's where

24:15

you you that's where what the mistake was.

24:17

And the other reason besides the fact that it lets

24:19

these fucking assholes lie about you

24:21

and crow about how they successfully drove

24:23

you off with

24:24

Twitter, ruined your career as the

24:26

Harvard instructor, what's her face said.

24:29

I love your carabaya. Yeah. What did she

24:31

say? I don't know. What ended up happening

24:33

was I did another brief

24:36

angry cathartic substack post,

24:38

which was probably one too many because In

24:40

part because of your text and that the image

24:43

was Alejandro Carabio saying,

24:45

did the identify as an attack helicopter

24:47

joke just destroy Jesse Single's

24:49

career? Absolutely legendary. So --

24:52

Right. -- I'm no longer it's like they're infants

24:54

without object permanence. I'm no longer

24:56

on

24:56

Twitter. Therefore, my career is

24:58

destroyed. I mean, I

25:00

don't

25:01

think that we should call people stupid, but this person

25:03

is a

25:03

fucking moron. Moreon. Fucking moron is

25:05

okay. Stupid is expensive. The other reason

25:07

I think that this was a mistake on your part is

25:09

because your Twitter archive is

25:12

really valuable for fact checking other

25:14

people who are lying about you, lying

25:16

about various things, lying about tranship,

25:18

people who were spreading misinformation, like

25:20

the whole kale

25:21

debacle, which we talked about on a Primo

25:23

episode. But I

25:24

did a hold did a hold newsletter on. I'll do newsletter

25:26

on anything important

25:27

newsletter does not matter

25:29

to Twitter. It doesn't matter. But that's the

25:32

point. Twitter is a self contained

25:34

madhouse. I don't care about it. It doesn't

25:36

matter.

25:37

These people because, like, every

25:39

fucking record of that kale shit

25:42

is gone from Twitter

25:43

now. And

25:43

so No. They're not. They're they're all again,

25:46

they're they're in I did a newsletter.

25:48

People

25:48

are not gonna reference that. Nobody's gonna go so

25:50

you got your fucking newsletter. So you're saying Alejandro

25:52

Carabaya will not be convinced of the righteousness

25:55

of my god. Like, who who? It doesn't

25:57

matter. I'm saying that that entire archive of

25:59

god. So who benefits when you when you

26:01

disable when you delete your Twitter account, people

26:03

like

26:03

kale, people like Michael Hobbs, people like Alejandra.

26:05

You can leave Twitter without

26:08

deleting But is it's all without the leaning

26:10

your page. But people can see the whole thing written

26:12

out in a form that I want to

26:14

maintain. Jesse, nobody is going to

26:16

go to the fucking article you were pretending as though

26:18

this is how Twitter works. This is not how Twitter

26:20

works. But I no. But I'm not I'm rejecting the

26:22

premise that I care how Twitter works. Tools

26:24

can fit like Do you care about your

26:26

reputation? My reputation's fine despite

26:28

all the Twitter bullshit.

26:29

Your reputation is not fine.

26:31

On Twitter, it's not. It's

26:33

things seem to be good. Who reads Twitter?

26:35

Who reads Twitter? Editor's read

26:37

Twitter, journalist read

26:39

Twitter. But I don't but trying to I'm still trying

26:41

to understand at what point any of this has

26:43

harmed my career in any way more important

26:45

than I I do not

26:47

think I can write an opinion column for vice for

26:49

hundred fifty dollars. It doesn't matter. It

26:52

that's our divide. You still think it matters. It doesn't

26:54

matter unless you make it Look, you could have

26:56

like, this none of this had to happen if you had

26:59

just For instance, given me the tweets to your

27:01

kid

27:01

account, I would never give them back to you. Oh, Jesus.

27:03

Can you imagine if I gave you access

27:05

to my Twitter account? Look, I would tweet only

27:07

about

27:08

your love of the French foam cuties from

27:10

now on until the end of time. You would

27:12

be fine. You just, like, this was just an unforced

27:15

error. You could have just fucking giving keys to me,

27:17

giving the keys to trace, giving the keys to your brother, giving

27:19

the keys to anybody. I I think

27:21

you are giving there's a whole

27:23

set of rules on Twitter

27:25

that morons make. Those rules include,

27:28

if if someone does a reply to you where they're

27:30

dumb, you're not allowed to retweet it to draw attention

27:33

to Why? If someone leaves if someone

27:35

leaves Twitter, they've somehow lost. Why?

27:38

Alejandra Carrabio, I've looked at, like,

27:40

if you look at these people's feeds, you

27:42

can see why they're crazy

27:44

and why their followers are crazy. It's

27:46

just pages after page

27:48

of outrage content and toxic

27:50

sludge and lies and their painting

27:53

a version of the world that is much darker than

27:55

they need to, and don't wanna be a part of

27:57

any of that. And I don't need and I have a lot of work

27:59

to do. I really do that gets I get distracted

28:02

by

28:02

Twitter. It's different because you don't you don't have dysfunctional

28:04

relationship to Twitter as I do. I I don't.

28:07

But if I did, I wouldn't delete my

28:09

entire account because I know what that looks like.

28:11

It looks like you are

28:13

surrendering. It looks like they went. And I know that's

28:15

not what happened. I know that that's not what happened,

28:17

but that's what it looks like to the outside

28:19

world. Okay. But but just complete complete

28:21

this thought. Alahondra, Carabio,

28:25

is interpreting this as a surrender. And then

28:27

what's gonna

28:27

happen? That's bad as a result of that. You're gonna start

28:29

trending on Twitter for fucking days. And

28:31

hundreds of thousands of people are going to be

28:33

reading bullshit lies about

28:35

you. That's what's gonna happen. I know

28:38

but it doesn't that was already the

28:40

case. And if anything, this is preventing it

28:42

from being the case, they've already moved on a lot

28:44

of them. Like, I was looking at their feeds, they're it's

28:46

the next bullshit. It's the the Jamie Shupe.

28:48

Like, it's we'll talk about that. It's the Jamie Shupe shit.

28:50

It's just I think my critique

28:52

of your approach is that

28:55

you're letting them set the terms of

28:57

the date. They do set the terms of the debate. There's

28:59

more of them.

29:00

They don't. No. Everybody knows

29:02

Alejandro Carabayo is not?

29:04

No. No. Everybody doesn't know that. Alex

29:06

Alejandro Carabayo has more cultural

29:08

capital than either you or III

29:10

genuinely think that's false, and think that's exactly

29:13

the problem that you think because she has more Twitter.

29:15

So when people

29:17

get mad at me or John Shupe, every

29:19

fucking new ping of like a snarky

29:22

reply gets four hundred

29:24

likes. Why is that? Well,

29:25

because people fucking hate you. No. It's because,

29:28

like, online weird left Twitter are the most

29:30

obsessive online weirdos.

29:32

All they do is tweet. Has

29:34

have things are are Kate or

29:36

my career threatened by this? Are we in

29:38

any real

29:39

trouble? Can I no longer write for

29:41

the times once every couple years if I want to?

29:43

I mean, it will be interesting to

29:45

find out what happens. I have not seen very

29:47

many people defend you. In in most cases,

29:49

people do, like reporter, friends, 156

29:51

his friends do defend you, I have not been seeing that

29:53

this time. It's too much. There's

29:56

and and there's like so many fucking weird layers

29:58

to this story that it's impossible to untangle

30:00

the whole

30:00

thing. So even your your, like, put your

30:03

your, like, frequent defenders are staying out of this

30:05

one. I that what little bit

30:07

I've seen people are defending me and I also don't care.

30:09

Told them not to defend me in the follow-up post because

30:11

it's pointless. What's gonna happen if you engage

30:13

with Alahat? The rest of it, we're gonna be

30:15

talking minute about your interactions

30:18

with someone who is completely incorrigible

30:20

and capable of reason. At a certain point,

30:22

if you keep going back for more with these people,

30:24

especially In a situation like

30:26

ours where we really can just take our

30:28

ball and go

30:29

home, there's no need for us to

30:31

be engaged with this bullshit. A, you have

30:33

not been on Twitter to see what people

30:35

are saying. And I and b, my

30:37

whole point is that it is fine if you are not

30:39

I have seen it. You sent it to me. You sent it to

30:41

me. No. I said you one screenshot that said

30:43

that that was your name, that was trending, that's all that I

30:45

sent you. I mean, and the the other thing, as I mentioned,

30:47

like, your archive is valuable. It is valuable to

30:49

other people besides just you. It is valuable to

30:52

me. Right. Kart has a lot of garbage in it too

30:54

that I that I'm fine with, like, not Sure.

30:56

It does. Sure. It's fucking Twitter. Of course, there's

30:58

a lot of garbage in it. But all of that is

31:00

inaccessible now. And so when people are in

31:02

other arguments and they want to cite something that you've

31:04

said on Twitter, something that is truth fold,

31:06

calling somebody out, pointing out the facts,

31:08

when people are rampantly lying about

31:11

you or about anything

31:12

else, they can't do that now because you leave

31:14

at your archive. But I've been doing if if it's

31:16

been five years I mean, we should move on to Shupe.

31:18

But I've been it's been five years of people lying

31:20

and of just I think to anyone

31:23

with half a brain, the level

31:26

of bad faith defamation here is

31:28

so obvious. And also, there's been a recent uptick

31:30

in the craziness as on the gender

31:32

stuff, they they have sort

31:35

of been routed. I mean, their goal for long

31:38

time was that no one talk about the youth gender medicine

31:40

stuff in mainstream outlets. Every mainstream outlet is

31:42

now onto this. And the reason for the backlash to

31:44

the times, which I think connects to all this, really,

31:46

was because they've realized they've lost. The times just

31:48

gonna keep covering this other outlets are

31:50

covering

31:50

it. Of course, SLATE and vice

31:53

are gonna be cowards about this, but they've

31:55

they've lost and I think that's why they're so mad. Just

31:57

give me the keys. Restate your your

31:59

Twitter feed and give me the

32:00

keys. This

32:01

is can you I just can't even imagine

32:03

a situation where I'm letting you protect

32:05

Give me the keys. Communicating. I

32:07

Everybody vote in the comments. Should Jesse

32:09

give me the keys. Should

32:10

we move on to housekeeping and then do the JV shoot

32:12

bullshit? Yes. Let's do it. Katie

32:17

with Also, the worst

32:19

fucking part about this is that I am generally

32:21

pretty fucking good at staying out of

32:23

Twitter fights. I've like, I have pretty good

32:25

fucking Twitter hygiene with Yigan.

32:28

Now, I'm the person who has to defend you. This

32:30

is not how I want to spend my time. Get me.

32:32

I can't look like, our reputations are inextrepicably

32:35

linked. So if people make horrific

32:37

allegations against you, like for instance, you didn't

32:39

recognize the helicopter

32:41

being, I have to defend you.

32:44

I

32:44

I cannot be seen

32:45

as being in a partnership with somebody who doesn't

32:47

understand helicopter being. I left

32:50

it. I left transitioned to be a helicopter

32:52

so I could fly away.

32:56

Katie, moving on to housekeeping. With

32:59

my recent decision, to have left

33:01

my platform of a hundred forty thousand

33:03

Twitter

33:04

followers, other sources of income

33:06

are borne about that. Which

33:08

brings me to block to reporter dot org.

33:11

A wonderful premium subscription service

33:13

where you can get three extra episodes of this

33:15

podcast every month there's more

33:17

than ten thousand premium subscribers,

33:19

which is crazy. As you can tell,

33:22

the five years of defamatory bullshit

33:24

has absolutely destroyed my career and

33:26

accidentally somehow, I

33:28

co host a podcast with ten thousand paid subscribers, not rubbing

33:31

it. I'm just saying that's the truth and it doesn't really

33:33

matter the Twitter

33:33

shit. It's

33:35

almost eleventh of It's up there is what it is. But

33:37

you know what? I I ran the numbers, Katie.

33:39

And now that I'm off Twitter, we need to

33:41

at least quintuple that or I'm gonna starve today.

33:44

He's wasting away from I didn't wanna say

33:46

things this starkly, but I'm just being honest.

33:48

So if you're not skeleton,

33:51

does anyone have seen a photo of the has

33:54

could tell, I'm completely malorished. It's

33:56

really bad. So I hope people will consider becoming

33:58

a premium subscriber. We also have a merch

34:00

shop at barpod merch dot com. At some point

34:02

where you'll cycle in some new merch,

34:05

although we don't need to because we have in there, it's just

34:07

groundbreaking stuff. You can also check out

34:09

the Reddit block to reported dot Reddit

34:11

dot com. There was also a thread

34:13

about the destiny's Reddit

34:16

where Brianna Wu made an appearance. I highly

34:18

recommend that just we don't even it's just

34:20

great. Anything else for housekeeping? Well,

34:22

let's press the link to that and the show now.

34:23

Yeah. We'll be I'm gonna work it out. Is really good. Is

34:25

that it for housekeeping, Katie? Anything else?

34:27

Slash reported that org, please Jesse needs

34:29

friends. Actually, Kate, before getting this, I just want to

34:31

reemphasize we are in the market

34:34

for ideas

34:36

for non culture or crazy Internet

34:38

stories that we can really dig into. Only

34:41

real requirement already said

34:43

this. I know. I'm just reemphasizing. Like, we we

34:45

really could use some Jesus

34:46

Christ. Oh, God forbid, we get some

34:48

ideas. Watch a

34:50

reported podcast at gmail

34:52

dot com. I think that's our

34:55

email address. There's no way to check. But yeah,

34:57

we just we wanna find some weird, old school

34:59

stuff that other people haven't reported, and that would make for

35:01

a good twenty or twenty five minute segment. That's the only

35:03

real prerequisite other than

35:05

that, All pitches welcome.

35:07

So thank you. Okay, Jesse. Well,

35:09

today, I was going to have a

35:11

segment for you on some drama in the

35:13

historical costume and world. Nice. That,

35:15

however, is going to have to wait. No.

35:18

Yes. I'm sorry.

35:20

Because Jamie Shupe is back.

35:22

Jesse, does the name Jamie Schupp

35:24

Shupe. Wait.

35:27

Is this on Shupe about Jamie Shupe? It

35:29

is. It's

35:29

actually about Alissa Schoup, which is what

35:31

Jamie

35:32

stands right now. Alissa Schoup.

35:33

This is Damien. Anything to you? Yeah.

35:35

Lisa Shupe. Nate

35:37

Jamie Shoup was a detransitioner.

35:40

Who was a source for some retransition

35:42

stories and since retransitioned and

35:45

similar to Kyle Shebers, that's

35:48

the other name. Right? Kai. And similar

35:50

to Kai Sheavers has since come out against

35:52

the detransition community they used to be part of.

35:54

Okay. Yeah. Story's over. Thanks for thanks

35:56

for that That's it. BlackRock dot org. Okay.

35:58

So Jamie Shupe well, Jamie birth

36:01

name, James. Nadel Mail lives

36:03

in Oregon. And in twenty seventeen, at

36:05

the time they were going by the name, Jamie. And

36:07

they became the first person. I'm gonna switch

36:09

pronouns with this person every they have,

36:11

like, they go through all the different pronouns and

36:13

I'm gonna use the pronoun that they were using at the

36:15

time. Said okay? You think that's acceptable?

36:18

I don't think it's okay. I'm

36:19

not gonna lie

36:20

on Twitter, so I won't experience it in the back line.

36:22

Okay. So they became in twenty seventeen the

36:24

first person to get a non binary x

36:26

marker on their driver's license. And this was a

36:28

big national story. They were featured in

36:30

The York Times and many, many other outlets.

36:33

And then a few years later, however, Shupe

36:36

changes their mind, goes back to the

36:38

name James, and comes out

36:40

as a detransitioner with the

36:42

pronouns hehim. He writes

36:44

a bunch of pieces about how it was always sham.

36:47

The first one was published in the daily signal.

36:49

That's literally the title of one of them. I

36:51

was America's first non binary person. It

36:53

was all a sham. And here's a quote

36:56

from a piece, another piece that he wrote. This one

36:58

is called my life after

37:00

transgender despair. New

37:02

to identifying as a woman at that stage of my

37:04

life but indoctrinated by the peddlers of transgender

37:07

ideology believe I was 156.

37:09

I incorrectly believed that gaining access

37:11

to female bathrooms was a human rights issue

37:13

for me. I was wrong. In hindsight,

37:15

it was all part of a selfish quest to nourish

37:17

my long held sexual fantasy of being a

37:19

woman, a mental disorder called

37:22

autoganophilia. Oh,

37:24

god. And

37:25

do you wanna do a little background on

37:27

AGP? No. I mean, this is like a really

37:29

controversial idea. There's some people who identify as out

37:31

of ground files, but it's basically The

37:34

idea is it's a paraphilia where you

37:36

are aroused by the idea of being a woman

37:38

and this goes back to like Ray Blanchard and Michael

37:41

Bailey and and you

37:42

know, they claim that a significant

37:44

Who are researchers not AGPs?

37:47

Not AGPs?

37:47

As far

37:47

as we know, never know. think they'd be open the back as

37:50

they were. The theory

37:52

is that trans

37:54

women who transition later on in life

37:56

are often driven by this and it's You

37:59

know, an idea the trans community really doesn't

38:01

like because they view it as, like, unfairly

38:04

sexualizing a matter of identity

38:07

and I don't know. I I honestly I

38:11

don't view the idea as debunked. I think there's

38:13

possibility that maybe it's been overemphasized. I

38:15

do think some people pretty

38:17

readily say, yep, this describes

38:19

my experiences, and I I don't think it should be stigmatized

38:22

to, like, talk about it if it's done

38:24

an affair and not cruel way. It is

38:26

it is definitely weaponized by, like, with genuine anti

38:29

trans activists who make sort of sweeping statements

38:31

about trans women being perverts

38:33

or all gutter followers or

38:34

whatever. Yeah. There was a section in

38:36

Alice Raker's Fantastic Book Galileo's

38:39

Middlefinger. She talks about Michael Bailey and

38:41

what happened to him after he wrote a book about

38:43

some of his some people that he encountered

38:45

doing this research, many of whom were

38:47

AGP or appeared to be AGP.

38:50

And Alice talks about how activists

38:53

wanted to move trans activists wanted to

38:55

move the narrative from the bedroom to the kitchen

38:58

or the living room perhaps. Make

39:00

it make it seem like like transition,

39:03

trans related issues, trans sexualism, transgenderism,

39:06

is less about sex, less about

39:08

a kink, and more about someone's identity.

39:11

And they were very successful at

39:13

at changing the cultural conversation. Yep.

39:15

But Jamie Shupe, at

39:17

one point, openly identified as

39:20

an autologile. He wrote

39:22

another blog post called autogonophilia in

39:24

search of my cure. Here's a quote from that one.

39:27

My problem is a paraphilic

39:29

disorder. That's it. It's not about gender

39:31

identity. And he posts a photo

39:34

of breast pump that he says that he kept

39:36

in his office to indulge in this

39:38

can't get work.

39:39

No. Nope. No. No. No. No. No.

39:41

No.

39:41

Jesse, do you think that's what HR means by

39:44

bringing your whole self to work? Okay.

39:48

So

39:51

I don't care what what people

39:53

do in their own home, but the the how

39:56

how would a breast pump work

39:58

if if you're male and, like, don't have

40:00

the equipment for it? Male can let

40:02

it. Without, like, pharmaceutical aid. Yeah.

40:04

If you stimulate enough. There's a there's

40:06

just as much of an urban isn't it as an

40:08

urban legend? No. A person I'm related to,

40:10

I won't say who, but a relative who

40:12

used to teach human sexuality, would tell

40:14

his students at the beginning of the semester, his male

40:16

students that if any of them could lactate just

40:19

through simulating their nipples, then by the end

40:21

of the

40:21

semester, they'd get an automatic Nobody successfully

40:23

did

40:23

it. Title Nine, tiny, do

40:25

you? Yeah.

40:28

It's probably a good thing doesn't teach anymore.

40:29

He really got away with that. That -- Yeah. -- badge

40:31

it in twenty twenty three.

40:33

The shit that he got away with. He was a I think

40:35

he was a very, very good teacher because

40:37

he married he married ten of his students. No.

40:39

Because he his think his his attitude

40:42

about teaching was that he was first an entertainer,

40:44

which I think is what makes a good teacher. Regardless

40:47

he had tenure. If he was in Florida in

40:49

twenty twenty, and all that's off. Okay.

40:52

So Mel's can lactate, as

40:54

far as I know, Jamie James

40:56

Shupe successfully did it regardless.

40:59

During this period where he's writing these blog

41:01

posts about his kinks and talking

41:03

about the transgender movement in

41:05

trans ideology, and he becomes

41:08

this militant anti trans activist.

41:11

Going so far as the protest youth transition

41:13

so what he would now call gender affirming

41:15

care by holding signs that say

41:17

things like transgender is on mutilates

41:19

children. That's still his twin his

41:21

pinned tweet on his Twitter account. Which is

41:24

inactive. But Can can I this is actually

41:26

raises an interesting point because if

41:29

you report on this subject, and you

41:31

talk to dtransitioners or you talk

41:33

to, like, quote unquote, concern moms.

41:36

I think you're

41:39

on safer ground if they don't

41:41

talk about things in these sort of sweeping ways.

41:43

So, like, transgenderism mutilates

41:45

children is a bit out

41:48

there, I think. And that's pretty different from being,

41:50

like, I have some concerns about the evidence.

41:52

Or so I think there's, like,

41:53

certain warning signs journalists should look for

41:55

before quoting people. We'll get back to that. So

41:58

after Jamie came out as a detransitioner

42:00

in this daily single piece

42:02

Signal. Daily

42:03

signal is my new website.

42:05

So after her Jamie

42:07

came out as a d transisturer this

42:09

daily signal, please. I emailed with

42:11

them this was in twenty nineteen. Alright, Diam.

42:14

We emailed back forth. I might have talked him on the fun

42:16

one Although, if I did, I don't have any memory of

42:18

it. I never ended up writing about him because

42:20

he was very clearly mentally unwell.

42:23

I started reading the AGP stuff, his

42:26

his confessions, he was really he was also really

42:28

open about his own mental illness. He was seeking

42:30

treatment for various orders. I won't disclose

42:32

them, but he did told me That'd be a HIPAA violation.

42:34

Right. He did he sent me some information

42:37

about his his diagnosis. And

42:39

at one point, he dimmed me. This is a quote.

42:41

It's past time that a journalist such as yourself

42:43

writes a sarcastic piece about how a bunch of

42:45

states and do gooders blew millions to put an

42:47

x on a driver's since for a crazy

42:49

person. Wait. Wait. Yeah.

42:52

Not that. Crazy person. And I don't

42:54

feel bad about reading his message. This was

42:56

a private message. I don't feel bad about it because

42:58

of what he did recently, and we'll get to that in a

43:00

moment. So this person is not

43:02

well. And one of the things

43:04

that you learn to do as journalist is to

43:06

avoid using crazy people as

43:08

sources. It's not just irresponsible,

43:10

although I do think it is highly irresponsible

43:13

and exploitative. You mean to sort of

43:15

to sort of give them your amplification,

43:18

which could which could hurt them or bounce

43:20

back. We're down back on them negatively. Right. And I'm not

43:22

thinking about, like, reporting on the actions of a crazy

43:24

person. I think that's different. But

43:26

If somebody is suffering from mental illness and

43:28

you use them as a source, not only are

43:31

you using somebody who is quite

43:33

literally not in their right mind, It's

43:35

also likely to come back and bite

43:37

you in the ass. So I never

43:39

wrote about Jamie because Jamie is crazy

43:41

and Jamie told me he was crazy. But

43:44

we're in touch few times over the years. Well,

43:47

since then, Jamie has retransitioned and

43:49

is now going by the name, Alyssa Shupe.

43:51

And this week, Extra Magazine, this is

43:53

a queer publication in Toronto, they published

43:56

a long piece about alyssa called

43:58

The Making of a Dtransitioner. Alyssa

44:01

Reissue was a weapon in the hands of terfs

44:03

and Christian Conservatives. Now over twenty

44:05

six hundred pages of leaked emails, help

44:07

tell her story. So this piece is

44:09

by crack reporter, an old friend

44:11

of the

44:12

pod,

44:12

Jude Doyle. Nice. He's my best memory woman.

44:14

And this is based on private emails and other

44:16

correspondence that Eliza gave

44:19

you. Twenty six hundred pages as it says

44:21

there in the subtitle. So,

44:23

Jesse, before we get to what happened in this piece,

44:25

we have to take a little detour. Did you

44:27

see that Mother Jones article from

44:30

the last week or two called inside

44:32

the secret working group that helped push anti

44:34

trans laws across the

44:35

country. I read most of it. I I

44:37

thought the framing was pretty bizarre.

44:39

So the emails are useful. If

44:41

your goal is to understand conservative attempts

44:43

to mostly to banned use

44:46

use gender medicine, which to

44:48

be clear is something I've come out against for reasons

44:50

I've explained elsewhere. It's

44:53

useful. There was a breathlessness and

44:55

a conspiratorialness to it. Is that the

44:57

word I'm like if our

44:58

conspiratorialness? That's not a word. I

44:59

don't know if it's a word, but it's an

45:01

app description. Yeah. It it it's

45:03

sort of Look,

45:05

the emails are interesting if you wanna understand how they

45:08

talk about this and the tactics, but there was like a man

45:10

bites dog story because it who

45:13

doesn't have email chains were like different

45:15

folks with the same political goals talk and

45:17

share strategies and encourage one another? It was

45:19

sort of painted as this inherently nefarious

45:21

thing. Now I agree I disagree with the policy and there's

45:24

some hard line social conservatives on here

45:26

with, like, a history of being really against abortion

45:28

and gay marriage and stuff, but it's just

45:31

I I thought the framing was

45:33

weird, to be honest. What do you think? I

45:35

totally agree with you. It's the article

45:37

is based on a bunch of emails sent between

45:39

conservative politics missions, most

45:41

principally South Dakota Republican

45:43

state representative Fred

45:45

Deutsch, and mostly faith based

45:48

groups that were working on legislation

45:50

to end youth transition. So people

45:52

on Twitter were acting like this was some sort of

45:54

giant was a and I didn't get that because

45:57

the story is people who

45:59

oppose youth transition

46:00

working to youth transition. That's

46:02

it. Right. That's it. It's just it's weird.

46:05

Again, I'm against the policy for a lot of reason. I

46:07

actually think these laws have made it much harder

46:09

to have a reason

46:10

conversation. I need this.

46:11

One hundred percent. Much it's just it's

46:13

dropped the toxicity at a bomb in the

46:15

middle of the discourse. But there's

46:18

like, they're they're conservatives. They have completely

46:21

different values from us, and they're allowed to

46:23

push for those values. So it was just

46:25

I don't know. My grip is really just with the framing.

46:27

And then online, there was

46:29

a lot of people acting like this was some unbelievably

46:32

unbelievable

46:33

revelation. It was almost like

46:35

they got

46:37

like, the reporter got bunch of emails and was like,

46:39

oh, secret emails. They had to pretend

46:41

they're I'm I'm not sure anything in there was that

46:43

surprising or

46:43

revelatory, but I again, I I read most

46:46

of it was under Well Yeah. Like, there's not even there's

46:48

no terfs in there. There's no gender critical feminist

46:50

in this piece. JK was an emailing

46:52

representative, Fred Duets. So that that's

46:55

like, that so if you read those

46:57

and it includes me or

46:59

you folks who are say they're against these bills

47:02

in secret saying no, actually we like

47:04

these bills. We're lying. That would be story

47:06

or like other more famous people. But

47:08

it didn't have anything with that. It had social conservatives,

47:10

expressing socially conservative viewpoint. Breaking.

47:13

Breaking. It's just like Jeremy

47:15

Fall while I pose this day, Barry. There's

47:18

just no bear there.

47:19

There's no bear there. Yeah. But the piece quote, Alyssa

47:22

Shupe, who while she was in this de

47:24

transition state, was working

47:26

with Fred Deutsch and these other folks.

47:29

Here's quote from her. This is what she tells mother

47:31

Jones. was like Deutsch assemble

47:33

the team of navy

47:34

seals. We were all trained killers

47:36

in a specialty. Well, I don't know what

47:38

that means. It just sounds unsensational trained

47:41

killers because they were seeking to pass

47:43

laws? Okay. So it turns out that

47:45

these emails, they came

47:47

from Shupe. Mother Jones doesn't

47:49

say this. But Shupe claim credit

47:51

on her blog for these emails. What's

47:54

more a hacktivus posted

47:56

entire trove emails on Twitter,

47:58

emails that he also presumably got from

48:01

Shupe. And the people whose emails were included

48:03

in this this this hack or

48:05

this leak were bombarded by

48:07

furry poor and another nasty

48:09

shit. Sounds

48:09

about it. Yep. Okay. So Shub has been

48:11

leaking emails like crazy. And now this is now

48:14

the basis for multiple articles is is

48:16

Alyssa Alyssa Shoe is the expert

48:18

here. Alyssa who 156 again

48:21

call me in a in ADM

48:23

that he at the time is

48:25

crazy. Direct quote, crazy. But well,

48:27

hold on. I just wanna separate out two different things. If

48:30

taking Shupe word for stuff is one thing.

48:32

If Shub happened to leak emails

48:34

and legitimate

48:35

emails, it's like, That

48:37

that's fair game for journalists to write about it.

48:39

No. I agree with you, but this mother John's piece,

48:41

quote, Shupe. Oh, yeah. Shoop is one of the sources

48:43

for here. Yes. That's not Shupe maybe

48:45

you should be careful quoting tube. Okay. So

48:48

back to to Jude's piece. So

48:50

far by far the dumbest of all of them,

48:53

Shupe me. Wait. You sorry. Hold on. Hold on.

48:55

You're saying Jude Doyle wrote

48:57

something dumb.

48:58

Yeah. I know it's a shock. Did you want it not taken

49:00

up opportunity to take do another take and use less

49:02

harsh

49:03

No. I'm gonna I'm gonna say dumb. I'm gonna just say

49:05

dumb.

49:06

little radicalized. Yeah. Okay. So Okay.

49:08

I don't know if I'm comfortable with this, we go ahead. So within

49:10

this piece, Shupe makes these absolutely

49:13

insane allegations.

49:15

And you just repeat some as

49:17

though the air fact. Like, at one point, Shupe

49:19

claims that fourth wave now, which is an organization

49:22

that supports parents of kids who exhibit

49:24

symptoms of It's like more of a web their

49:26

blog. I don't even think they're incorporated

49:27

as, like and yeah. I don't know. Anyway, like an online

49:29

community. Anyway, parents of kids

49:31

with rapid onset, centeredness for you,

49:34

Shupe claims that Fourth Wave NOW

49:37

was behind the Liza Littman ROGD

49:39

study and Liza Littman was

49:41

a quote, front for fourth wave now.

49:44

What is what does that mean? What Shupe

49:46

is claiming is that is that Lisa Lehman

49:48

who at the time was a researcher at

49:50

Brown University was a

49:52

was a, like, front, a figurehead for

49:55

this parents group,

49:57

this online

49:58

websites. Is that

50:00

explain, like, in Jude Doyle's story?

50:02

Is it explain exactly what is meant by that? Or

50:05

does Jude just move on?

50:06

Okay. I'll read you the direct quote from this piece.

50:08

So first of all, this starts with a statement

50:11

about Lisa

50:11

Mariano. Can you explain who who she is?

50:14

Yeah, she's like a Youngian therapist who's

50:16

very skeptical of

50:19

used transition

50:20

basically.

50:20

Alright. So And

50:22

she's read and she's read about it. So this is

50:24

a quote. This is this is a Shupe talking.

50:26

Marcheano never explicitly said she is

50:28

the inventor of ROGD,

50:31

inventor. But the evidence points

50:33

to her, and she's listed as a contributor to the Liza

50:35

lemon study on plus 156. She writes to me,

50:37

that's Shupe riding to doil. Quote,

50:40

my opinion is that Marceano and fourth

50:42

wave now folks are behind the ROGD study and

50:44

lemon merely fronted it for them to make it

50:46

hear

50:46

unbiased? I don't really this

50:49

reflects a lack of understanding of how studies

50:52

work. So for example, Even

50:54

to do a study of an online sample, you need institutional

50:56

review board approval, and

50:58

you have to go through all these bureaucratic

51:00

Shupe. The idea that you can just use

51:02

a legitimate researcher as a fraud. Now,

51:05

I have no doubt there's some connections there

51:07

because

51:09

fourth wave now and and Marchiano believe

51:12

in RGD, and they and Lisa

51:14

Whitman recruited from communities of parents

51:16

who believe in those Did you post on fourth wave for

51:18

that first time? always forget. There've been so many

51:20

false accusations. Yeah. Here we go. To maximize

51:22

the chances of finding cases, meeting eligibility

51:24

criteria, the three websites What are you reading

51:26

from? From the actual paper of

51:29

the Yeah. So, yeah, Fourth Wave Now was one of the

51:31

website. She she was looking for

51:33

moms who thought it it

51:36

we don't need to go back to this. It was not it

51:38

was not a sort of representative

51:40

sample. People pretended that

51:43

because she used biased websites.

51:45

I mean, that in a technique, like, they were biased.

51:47

They were websites of parents who were

51:49

skeptical that their kids should transition, but

51:51

this was just an initial attempt to gain more information

51:54

about this alleged phenomenon. So,

51:56

yeah, there's connections between the women, but I don't

51:58

even really understand this claim that Shupe was

52:00

upfront from

52:01

them. It just sounds like conspiratorial rambling.

52:03

It is. It's the rambling of a crazy person. Okay.

52:05

Here's another section. In February twenty

52:07

nineteen, Shupe that Abigail

52:09

Shrier author of the book irreversible damage,

52:12

which argues that the transgender craze is seducing

52:14

our daughters and causing vulnerable cis girls to

52:16

transition due to social contagion. Though

52:19

Shrier proposed a phone call, not much seems

52:21

to have come to that conversation. Shupe

52:23

made a slightly more successful pitch to

52:25

Podcasts or Katie Herzog, To reach

52:27

out to Shupe multiple times via Twitter

52:29

DM asking for interviews but did not

52:31

end up using any of Shoup's quotes.

52:34

In both cases, Shoup says, the roadblock

52:36

was the same. Schrier and Herzog were,

52:39

quote, invested in selling d

52:41

trans women, not males. People

52:43

like me are inferior sales to sales

52:45

tools. I mean, two things about that.

52:47

One is that and I I know because we've talked about this

52:49

before, you you you did mention

52:52

dtrans ladle males in your

52:54

d transition piece. So obviously, you're not this

52:56

was piece you did in the

52:57

strange. You're like, are you in trouble? You're obviously not in an uninterested

53:00

in that group. Second thing is I

53:02

I there were I think I profiled five or

53:04

six

53:05

dtransitioners. At least two of them were

53:07

dtransmales. This is just that is an insane

53:09

supposition. It just it didn't

53:11

fucking happen. And the problem with this,

53:13

the reason that this made me so mad is because

53:16

Jamie is is

53:18

saying that I have some sort of political

53:21

agenda, that my that my choice of stories

53:23

isn't driven by an interest in the subject,

53:25

and interesting compelling stories, but then I have

53:27

a political agenda and that agenda

53:29

is selling this idea of damaged

53:32

women. Right. That's exact that's a quote from

53:34

the piece. Which just isn't isn't true. The other thing

53:36

is if you, like, listen closely to what you just

53:38

read, there's no there there. She's

53:40

like, Shupe is is saying,

53:43

Oh, I reached out to these two other people

53:45

and I didn't really talk to

53:46

them. Like, what's the story? A lot of

53:48

people reach out to a lot of people. That's the thing. There

53:50

is no story there. But this is a narrative

53:53

that Jude is trying to sell. That

53:55

Jamie Shupe was used by a bunch

53:57

of terfs and conservative Christians

54:00

for their own narrative. That's incredibly

54:03

ironic because that's exactly what Jude is fucking

54:05

doing. So

54:05

why didn't you just point that out when Jude reach out to

54:07

you for comment?

54:10

That's the thing, Jesse. You didn't reach out to

54:12

me for comment. This is one hundred percent made

54:14

up. Jude Doyle cutting journalistic

54:16

corners. I know. I know. And I was really

54:18

fucking mad about this. And just so we're

54:20

clear, the fact that Shupe, it's Schibb saying

54:22

it and not Jude Doyle does not let

54:24

Jude off the hook. It is a reporter's

54:27

obligation to get verification or

54:29

at least ask for comment when you're

54:31

publishing claims that have the potential to hurt

54:34

someone's reputation. And you didn't do

54:36

that. No fact checking. No request

54:38

for comment. Nothing. This is incredibly

54:41

shoddy work. Definitely not surprising for

54:43

anyone familiar with Jude Doyle and extra

54:45

I don't know what extra magazine is. It seems sort

54:47

of tabloid y.

54:48

Okay. So I saw this yesterday and I got

54:50

pissed about it. I saw it twenty four hours after

54:52

the piece had already been up almost. So I emailed

54:55

every editor on the masthead, well, three of them.

54:57

And I demanded a correction. And

54:59

I also tweeted about it about forty times, although

55:01

Jude blocked me so I couldn't even correct the record

55:04

in their mentions. And Jude was I looked at Jude's

55:06

Twitter from an Cognito Browser. And

55:08

Jude was just like retweeting all of this praise

55:10

about this fucking article, which did get a

55:12

lot of traction because it's part of this narrative

55:14

that is being pushed specifically on Twitter right now

55:16

that there is some sort of conspiracy involving

55:19

journalist, terfs, the Christian right,

55:21

etcetera. So After I emailed

55:23

the editor, the editor got back to me pretty quickly

55:26

within a couple hours and said, you know, we

55:28

take this seriously. We'll be in touch. But

55:30

I didn't hear anything for, like, six more hours and

55:32

I was getting more and more pissed about this because

55:34

the piece was just con this lie was just continuing

55:36

to spread. So, Jesse, III

55:38

read their editor this. Hi,

55:41

Angela. Just checking on a timeline here.

55:43

The piece has now been up for twenty four hours with

55:45

blatant falsehood. Jude Doyle has a

55:47

history of publishing fiction about me, and you

55:49

are not the first outlet that I've had to ask for

55:51

corrections corrections due to their

55:53

shoddy work. I believe this pattern

55:55

shows malice on Jude's part and

55:57

your publication's negligence in

56:00

either fact checking or seeking comment is

56:02

causing me reputational harm and mental

56:04

anguish. This is Christ.

56:07

Do you have like a legal

56:08

I'm sure you realize how serious this is.

56:11

So you're you're literally you've just

56:13

Wikipedia the definitions of definition.

56:17

But also, wait. Hold on. It's a Canadian public

56:19

So you're not even using the right one. No. No. No. No. I

56:21

did give gold deformation in Canada, and it turns out

56:24

the standard is much lower because you don't have to

56:26

actually approve malice in

56:27

Canada.

56:27

Okay. So what happened after you're trying to sue

56:29

they fucking corrected it immediately.

56:32

I don't know. They

56:35

add it looks like this was a the sentence they added.

56:37

Hurdside disputes Shupe characterization

56:40

as to why she didn't include Schoop's comments in her

56:42

story stating in an email to ask her that

56:44

she didn't include Schoop over concerns for mental health.

56:46

So first of all, shitty. It makes it seem like they

56:48

did reach out to you and you responded via email

56:50

rather than Look at the bottom. Update. After

56:52

this story was published, Katie Hertz saw a contacted

56:55

or by email disputing Alissa Ray Shupe characterization

56:57

as to why Shoup was left off the story by Herzog,

57:00

then they said the founder of Fourth Wave also reached

57:02

out. I they I don't think you wanna

57:04

correct

57:04

it. I think it's like a sort of shitty hidden

57:07

update, but mean, take it. It is shitty,

57:09

but it is better than anything else

57:11

I could get. Yeah. This is it. Like, that's the best you

57:13

can get is not a correction, it's a clarification.

57:16

What I really wanted them to say was that

57:19

they updated this because Jude Doyle didn't

57:21

reach out to me for in the first place, which is the real

57:23

sin here. Like publishing

57:25

a crazy person's lies is one thing, but

57:27

not reaching out to

57:28

comment, just regurgitating those lies is their

57:31

fact, that's the real sin here. Also,

57:33

I'm seeing at the bottom, wasn't

57:36

orphaned Jude Doles pronouns he for

57:38

a

57:38

while? I

57:38

don't fucking know. What have I been thing? Well,

57:40

I did they now. I thought it was he

57:42

we're not rerecorded the whole episode. We

57:45

sorry. There was he he's definitely

57:47

going as a trans guy for a Right?

57:49

Don't fucking know. I can't keep up with these people.

57:51

They have unstable gender identities. No.

57:53

I was used talking about me. The point is

57:55

we clearly meant to say gay throughout And

57:57

Apologies. Apologies. Did you do it? I

57:59

won't do it a correction. Right? Do

58:02

you do Like, don't you think it's

58:04

just interest? So okay. This is extra magazine.

58:07

This is not Judeo did at one point right

58:09

for, like, big places. I'm maybe

58:11

I'm broadcasting here. I feel like that hasn't happened for a

58:13

while. But At a certain

58:15

point, if you're going to commission a piece by

58:17

Judeoiled, you should just make sure you

58:19

fact check it pretty carefully. Yeah. That's own.

58:21

Yeah. And after the eighteen thousand

58:23

emails that I sent the editors pointing this

58:25

out, I'm hoping that that they consider

58:28

that the next time don't

58:29

know. Maybe they shouldn't publish Jude Doyle or maybe they should

58:31

hire a team of fact checkers to make sure that Jude does

58:33

the just basic, basic work.

58:36

What was the whopper again, so

58:38

I mean, I don't know how familiar newer listeners

58:40

are. Judeo I once said that I, like,

58:42

stocked a bunch of trans women stocked, which is

58:44

a crime. Yes. I've

58:46

stopped Katie and her family and Don, but

58:48

I never stopped. I'm not trans though. So

58:53

what was the whopper in an article in Jen

58:55

that medium publication Doyle basically

58:57

said that you wrote an article opposed to all

58:59

you

58:59

transitioned. Do I have that right? Yes. Which is why I

59:01

don't think that Jude Doyle has actually read my article

59:03

and I emailed you Doyle today through their editor

59:05

and I asked them a series of questions. One

59:08

of which was have you read the d transition article

59:10

and the reason is because Judeo in another

59:12

publication wrote that I argued

59:14

against all you transition that the article

59:17

has no fucking

59:19

No. I didn't.

59:20

No. That was just a lie. And the fact

59:22

that Jude Doyle repeated this bullshit about how

59:24

I'm not interested in trans males because

59:26

I have political agenda, no. If you don't have read

59:28

that article, they would know

59:30

that I have fucking profiled detransmills.

59:33

And instead of just acknowledging that they fucked

59:35

up, which is what you should do in a situation

59:37

like that, Jude continued to push

59:39

Shupe lies on Twitter yesterday. So Jude

59:41

blocked me and never responded to my request

59:44

for correction or for comment But they said at one

59:46

point, this is on Twitter. Herzog now claims

59:48

she didn't quote because she was

59:50

crazy. I can't verify her subjective

59:52

memory or an opinion. Shupe

59:54

says the friendship ended when she made a joke

59:57

that pissed her dog off.

59:58

Jesse, does that sound like something I would do? Yeah.

1:00:00

The classic Kenny Herzog huffing off because you're

1:00:02

offended by a joke. That makes lot of sense and and again

1:00:05

reflects serious research on Jude Doyle's

1:00:07

part. Yeah. So Jude didn't say

1:00:09

what this joke that I allegedly

1:00:11

found so offensive to my delicate sensibilities

1:00:13

that I cut off a meaningful friendship, like the one

1:00:15

that I shared with Alissa

1:00:18

Shupe, but I looked at Shupe website and

1:00:20

she conveniently posted this today. As

1:00:22

for the joke that pissed Katie Herzog off,

1:00:25

when the Daily Signal released the orchestrated

1:00:27

event bed that was Streep's first piece about

1:00:29

d transitioning. Herzog scrambled

1:00:31

like an ambulance chaser to secure an interview

1:00:34

while I was in a media cycle. Immediately presenting

1:00:36

her herself to my Twitter inbox as soon

1:00:38

as she became aware of news of my d transition.

1:00:41

I was expecting you to arrive. I

1:00:43

golded Katie Herzog with a sarcastic laugh

1:00:46

and response, inflamed by the dressing

1:00:48

down and confronted by the truth about herself,

1:00:50

has never since spoken to me. Jesse,

1:00:53

I live back at my DM's with Shupe, but I've got

1:00:55

some screenshots for you 156 our notes here. Do you want you

1:00:57

little role play? Sure. Alright. You

1:00:59

be Shupe. I'll start. Oh, I want to be

1:01:01

you. Hi, Jamie. I'm a reporter for the

1:01:03

stranger, a weekly paper in Seattle, and I'm interested

1:01:05

in speaking with about your decision to revert

1:01:07

back to mail? Are you doing interviews?

1:01:09

Yes. I've been awaiting you.

1:01:12

Well, I've been hoping you would talk to me.

1:01:14

Do you want to do

1:01:15

this? Phone, email? I'm swapped this week, but

1:01:17

I should be free by the end of this week. Can we talk next

1:01:19

week? That's a weird email. But anyway, can we talk

1:01:21

next week? I'm

1:01:21

away from a cell tower. So if the call drops

1:01:23

or is bad call again, please, yes,

1:01:26

whenever

1:01:27

you're ready. Okay.

1:01:28

Sounds good. I'll message you Monday to set up a time.

1:01:31

I'll be around. No worries. And then later

1:01:33

on, Jamie says, thanks so much and

1:01:35

thank you for the work you do to expose the

1:01:37

garbage that is transgenderism

1:01:39

then Katie responds, yes, transgenderism

1:01:42

is garbage, and I hate it. Okay.

1:01:45

So that thing that Shupe claims

1:01:48

ended our non existent friendship was

1:01:50

the literal first thing

1:01:52

that she said to

1:01:53

me, not the last.

1:01:55

Yeah. And Jude 156 again just

1:01:57

repeated this liar because Jude

1:02:00

is a hack. I did, by the way,

1:02:02

send Jude a few questions through

1:02:04

her editor. I have yet to hear back.

1:02:06

Anyway, so annoying as it is that Jude

1:02:08

continues to get published after

1:02:10

being fucking negligent. What's even

1:02:13

worse here is that this entire piece It's

1:02:15

not negligent. It is it is It is

1:02:17

awful. Like, if it's a awful negligence. Yeah. Legal

1:02:19

term. I looked that up. Oh, there

1:02:21

you go. Did do you think

1:02:23

they asked you to put with Alice? This entire

1:02:25

piece that that Jude published is

1:02:28

about how Alyssa Shupe is being used

1:02:30

and weaponized by malignant

1:02:32

forces, which is exactly what

1:02:34

Jude they self is doing. Judy's

1:02:37

taking advantage of a mentally unstable

1:02:39

person who has a constantly changing

1:02:41

gender identity for their own agenda and it's

1:02:43

fucking gross and I will not be surprised in

1:02:45

the slightest if Alyssa Shupe

1:02:47

red transitions in six months and starts

1:02:50

calling Jude part of the transmittance and

1:02:52

picketing outside their house, You

1:02:54

know, we should do. If that happens,

1:02:56

we should have Shupe on and

1:02:58

just take everything they say at face value.

1:03:01

156 hundred percent. Welcome. The newly

1:03:04

re transitioned

1:03:06

JB or whatever shoe. Welcome aboard. Welcome aboard

1:03:08

to report. June is a full

1:03:10

for using this person as a source and the

1:03:12

editors at Extra Magazine are fools

1:03:15

for publishing it and that also goes for

1:03:17

Kai Shivers. Sheaver's another

1:03:19

d transition, retransitioner who has

1:03:21

recently becoming darling of liberal media

1:03:23

because she is telling a convenient story

1:03:25

that they like. And there's this funny thing that

1:03:27

happens where opponents of us and others

1:03:29

on this beat claim that we're recycling the

1:03:32

de transition our stories over and over again

1:03:34

because there aren't enough of them they have literally

1:03:36

two people they all fucking write about now and they've

1:03:38

both proven themselves to be unreliable

1:03:40

narrators. So, as my Angelo

1:03:43

said, when people show you that they are

1:03:45

fucking nuts, don't use them as

1:03:46

sources. Yes. That's just as true as it was

1:03:48

when you said it in seventeen ninety four

1:03:50

if memory serves. But,

1:03:52

Katie, don't you see how your story sort of proves

1:03:54

I was right to leave Twitter? How? By

1:03:57

your own

1:03:58

estimate, you tweeted at or about

1:04:00

Judeoiled forty times. And

1:04:01

that was a lie. It was like ten. Okay.

1:04:04

Still, ten. It's twenty twenty three. Everyone

1:04:07

knows this person is not an honest actor.

1:04:09

And just think it's, like, a lot of time and energy

1:04:11

when what you should have done is just done whatever tweets

1:04:13

you need to do to get your point across and

1:04:16

then email the

1:04:16

editors. And, like, I'm here. I'm here.

1:04:19

No. You tweeted out. You were, like, really going

1:04:21

off. I feel like it I okay.

1:04:23

Yesterday, I went for I did the crossword. I

1:04:26

went for a hike. I came home and there was

1:04:28

a giant pile of wood chips

1:04:30

blocking my driveway, and then I spent the rest of

1:04:32

the day shoveling wood chips. This was not like

1:04:34

this didn't consume my day. Send you

1:04:36

a picture of the wood

1:04:37

chips, it's insane.

1:04:38

I got self conscious reading your tweets

1:04:41

about you doing

1:04:42

Why were you reading my tweets? You shouldn't even

1:04:44

be on Twitter. I've allowing myself

1:04:46

to occasionally check-in on my closest friends and

1:04:48

visit you're my business

1:04:49

partner. You're well-being is really important to me

1:04:51

financially.

1:04:51

If my well-being is important to financially, you

1:04:54

need to fucking get back on Twitter and No.

1:04:56

Not getting on Twitter. You're like, if I

1:04:58

was is this how you act with, like, your friends who

1:05:00

are in AA? Are you like,

1:05:02

Oh, you're not as fun since you stopped drinking?

1:05:04

Yes. Probably. Look,

1:05:07

I just think I'm being a hypocrite

1:05:09

here. I literally just left Twitter. I'm,

1:05:12

you know, I've done the same shit

1:05:15

you did, but way worse. But I just don't think

1:05:17

it gets you anywhere to get down in the muck with

1:05:19

these figures. Like, do you think a

1:05:21

lot of people who are

1:05:23

online enough to see your tweets about Jude

1:05:25

Doyle are undecided about Jude

1:05:27

Doyle. Like, what's the benefit of just, like, repeatedly

1:05:29

going after the month weather. Because I wanna cause such

1:05:31

a headache for the magazine that they realize

1:05:33

that this is what it's like when you work with Jude Oil.

1:05:36

You're trying to de platform Jude Oil?

1:05:38

Not necessarily, but that would be

1:05:40

nice. No, I just want editors to

1:05:42

fact check, to ask for comment,

1:05:45

to do basic due diligence. And if

1:05:47

Judy isn't gonna do it on her own, editors

1:05:49

need to force her to I'm sorry. Force them

1:05:51

to do

1:05:51

it. But

1:05:52

even there, you know, don't create a headache by tweeting.

1:05:54

You would create a headache by emailing them, which I think

1:05:56

that yes. I think that if if a magazine

1:05:58

becomes the subject of a pile along, which is what

1:06:00

I was trying to do, I wanted my

1:06:02

listeners oh, sorry. I wanted my readers

1:06:04

to make a headache for lunch. So you're literally

1:06:06

doing deplatforming, targeted

1:06:09

harassment, and daunting?

1:06:10

Yes. I didn't document the other two. Yes.

1:06:12

Yes. I'm doing it. Jude Oil is one of the

1:06:14

most noxious presences just forever

1:06:16

and is a disturbed individual. I

1:06:19

if editors want to commission Jude

1:06:21

to write stuff. First of all, I would say like stick

1:06:23

to stuff where Jude can't lie or can't harm other

1:06:25

people's reputations won't get your legal trouble What

1:06:28

could that possibly

1:06:28

be, like, recipes? I don't know. Culture doesn't

1:06:31

he write about, like, pop culture bullshit or so. I don't

1:06:33

know what Judeoel

1:06:34

is. Do you do a good retro fucking music review it

1:06:36

would still include the one about how Jesse Single Stocks

1:06:38

women? Or

1:06:41

just like fall. This is a review of Abby Road

1:06:43

by Radiohead. Not I

1:06:46

don't want no. I don't want Jude. I think Jude editors

1:06:49

who are stupid enough to commission Judeo all the right

1:06:51

stuff, should just make sure anything involving

1:06:53

the gender stuff is fact checks so thoroughly because

1:06:55

this is a pattern

1:06:56

now. And what extra publish was really was

1:06:58

extra crazy. It would. That's what it stands

1:07:00

for. Extra crazy. Well, look, I agree

1:07:02

with you, but I've been on the war path about

1:07:05

this particular incident because it is egregious.

1:07:08

And my hope is that if editors realize,

1:07:10

that this issue is just rife

1:07:13

with liars, they'll start doing due

1:07:15

diligence. That's probably not gonna

1:07:17

happen. But just the amount of fucking

1:07:19

lies that get repeated on Twitter

1:07:21

by people who have published in major magazines,

1:07:24

not that extra magazine is one of them. By

1:07:26

people who have platforms and who are able to get

1:07:28

away with this shit, it is fucking maddening. It

1:07:30

is maddening. And I do not think that the the answer

1:07:32

to this is to just delete your Twitter account

1:07:34

and

1:07:34

disappear. Just don't. I'm not disappearing. I deleted

1:07:36

my Twitter account because Twitter's a horrible, irredeemable

1:07:39

place or our corner of it.

1:07:40

But we're still looking at it.

1:07:42

Well, I'm letting myself as I

1:07:45

taper my addiction. A couple times

1:07:47

a day, I do, like, check your account because I'm

1:07:48

just, like, I'm I'm basically even though I'm younger than

1:07:51

you, You're not

1:07:52

You're talking to me by three months.

1:07:54

You're not savvy enough to navigate the world. I'm sort

1:07:56

of your big broadband. Watch you over you.

1:07:58

It's

1:07:59

like it's like with Mormons in that whole God thing.

1:08:01

That's, you know, I'm keeping glad you. You

1:08:03

don't know up there. When there were when

1:08:05

there was one set of footprints is because I

1:08:07

was carried you. It was you were carrying me.

1:08:09

You were carrying me. Yeah. was riding on your back.

1:08:11

Alright. That's enough about you, Doyle. Please

1:08:14

please send us ideas for us.

1:08:16

Internet stories. I know. Well, we have a couple

1:08:19

good ones in the hopper, both of which are not culture

1:08:21

worry, and we're excited to get back

1:08:23

to other stuff. But, yeah, it's been a crazy week on Twitter.

1:08:25

We'll see how long I stay off it. I do think eventually

1:08:27

I'll come up with a solution where I can be on

1:08:29

there. Remember when I signed back Give me the keys. Give

1:08:31

me

1:08:31

the keys. When I come back on

1:08:33

all my tweets come back, all my precious tweets

1:08:35

where I said dumb shit will be back. And at

1:08:38

some point, gonna come up with a solution where I can

1:08:40

maybe just hire someone to manage it. Who's not

1:08:42

you? Maybe Judeo would manage

1:08:44

it. You probably need to work. You

1:08:46

don't even have to pay me little bit for free. I think

1:08:48

I think

1:08:49

what I've realized is Why cuties is the best

1:08:51

American kids movie part one of seven?

1:08:54

Not even American. I think

1:08:56

what I've realized as

1:08:58

I've rapidly aged and approached deaf store

1:09:01

is I've sometimes failed to take the

1:09:03

w from the last few years. Like, I

1:09:05

still feel like I need a swing

1:09:07

back whenever some idiot on Twitter takes a and

1:09:09

me, when the fact is in many cases, I'll be giving

1:09:11

them attention they wouldn't have gotten otherwise when I do

1:09:14

that. That's not always true. If, you know, the

1:09:16

New York Times ones were in the column, which I thought

1:09:18

really distorted something I said. I wrote them a letter

1:09:20

to the editor. They published it. I'll respond to shit like

1:09:22

that. But, like, I increasingly

1:09:24

think, like, I don't know, man.

1:09:27

When we engage with Jude Doyle or like Tom

1:09:29

Scocca, do we do we need to? Aren't we lucky

1:09:31

to be in a position where don't have to do that? I

1:09:33

completely agree with you. I think you should be above it.

1:09:35

I still don't think you should've deleted your fucking account.

1:09:37

Okay. Well, this this argument will continue for

1:09:39

quite some time, but let's

1:09:42

wrap it there, as always, where a producer would help

1:09:44

from Jude Doyle. Us hiring Jude as

1:09:46

a producer did make this episode more awkward,

1:09:48

but, you know, he was most qualified.

1:09:50

No. This has been blocked and ported were produced

1:09:52

with help from tracing wood grains and the mysterious

1:09:54

lex. I'm Jesse Shingle, and

1:09:56

remember, I would like to formally apologized

1:09:59

to all the hippos I evaluated in last

1:10:01

couple

1:10:01

weeks. And

1:10:02

I'm Katie Herzog, and also remember, Jesse,

1:10:04

give me the keys. Give me the keys. Give me the keys. No.