0:06

From Wandering, this is special interview

0:08

so to have one time.

0:10

It's a strange day and none

0:12

of that all alone. I'm going elsewhere

0:15

because here are some to be wrong. It's

0:17

a strange day.

0:30

Blunt tires has just concluded its

0:32

third season, Strange Days. As

0:34

season three unfolds, a lot has changed

0:36

for the Richland Health Empire. Eleanor

0:38

has taken control as CEO with her

0:40

half brother Santino at her side.

0:42

A

0:43

new psychedelic miracle drug promises

0:45

to revolutionize modern medicine and make

0:47

the company a fortune. But as Eleanor discovers

0:50

at what cost? On today's

0:52

episode, Sarah a hacky, cohost

0:54

of Wonderry's scam influencers, sits down

0:56

with Blood Ties writer and director Benjamin

0:58

Gray and its star, Gillian Jacobs.

1:01

They'll talk about the inspiration for season

1:03

three, pushing the boundaries of immersive audio

1:05

and Eleanor's transformation from Bright

1:07

eyed CEO to major power player.

1:09

All that coming up next.

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2:31

Benjamin

2:31

Gray Gillian, Jacobs.

2:33

I am so excited to be chatting

2:35

with you today. It's really nice to be here

2:37

soon. Yeah.

2:38

Thank you for having us. Congrats on

2:40

season three of Blood Ties. I've I've become

2:42

such a fan of the show and I have so

2:44

much I wanna get into

2:45

and know listeners who wanna get into

2:47

but I want to start by asking you, Ben,

2:50

how you approach the story for season three.

2:52

Like, it picks up five years after season

2:54

two ends. And in some

2:56

ways, it it's kind of like a whole new

2:59

story. So where did you wanna take this

3:01

season

3:01

when you when you started it? We wanted

3:03

to tell a whole new story And

3:06

we our starting point was the whole new

3:08

Eleanor that you catch a glimpse

3:10

of at the end of season two. I mean,

3:13

I think one of the things that I

3:15

really liked about where we wound up with the end

3:17

of season two is that Eleanor

3:19

has this almost like born

3:21

identity moment. Yeah.

3:23

especially the beginning of his of Jason

3:25

Bourne's story where, you know, he kinda comes

3:27

to in a room and there are two men

3:29

laying shot on the floor and he looks at hand

3:32

and there's a gun in his hand and he's like, did

3:34

I do this? And there's

3:36

a wonderful way in which Elanor who's

3:38

been the idealist and outsider

3:41

in the story. At the end of season

3:43

two, she's ascended to

3:46

the leadership of Richland Health Services

3:48

And so that sets up a really nice

3:51

tension between her ethics

3:53

and the and the morals that have kind of guided her

3:55

in seasons one and two. and now

3:57

her position as the leader of

3:59

the company.

4:01

Was there kind of a central theme you

4:03

want to explore in season three, or

4:05

was it kind of built

4:06

on from previous seasons. You

4:08

know, every one of these seasons has kind

4:10

of started from a a what if you

4:12

dot dot dot kind of premise. where

4:16

we're kind of asking the audience, like,

4:18

what would you do if you

4:20

found out that your dad who you really admired

4:22

had done all these horrible things? And that's kind of

4:24

season one and two. And then I

4:26

think in season three, you know, the what

4:28

if becomes okay. What if

4:30

now you're sitting in his chair? like,

4:33

you have this whole company. All these people rely

4:35

on you. And you have this

4:38

technology that you feel like could save thousands

4:40

upon thousands of lives all over the world.

4:44

How far would you go to bring

4:46

that to market? And what corners

4:48

would you cut to make that happen?

4:50

Yeah. And Gillian, just to speak

4:52

on that, your character, Eleanor, she's always

4:54

been this moral center of the

4:56

show. And in season three, we really see

4:58

her push to these ethical limits. So

5:01

I'm just curious, what was your reaction to reading

5:03

these scripts for the first time and, like, seeing

5:05

her evolution. It's exciting

5:07

as an actor because it's

5:09

taking the story in a place that I didn't

5:12

anticipate when we started season

5:14

one. If

5:15

I was her friend, I would be concerned. But

5:18

as the actor playing the part, it was a

5:20

fun challenge.

5:21

the

5:22

Did you ever find yourself,

5:25

you know, especially spending so much time

5:27

as Eleanor protective of

5:29

her, you know, navigating these kind

5:31

of murky

5:32

waters?

5:33

No. Because I I understood what

5:35

Ben was exploring thematically with

5:38

this, which is like

5:39

she could have made a different choice, which

5:42

would be to

5:43

sell the company or walk

5:45

away or shut it all down.

5:48

And when she chooses to take a leadership

5:50

position and continue. She's

5:53

now facing all these same questions

5:55

that her father faced. And so I

5:57

thought It's

5:58

really interesting to see this

5:59

conflict between who she's

6:02

been, what has guided her life, and now

6:04

the realities of running this company. And

6:06

Is she gonna make similar choices to her father

6:09

who of whom she's been so critical? Or is

6:11

she gonna end up making different

6:13

ones? So I I thought that was an

6:15

interesting thing to explore in season

6:17

three. I'm curious, like, did you find yourself

6:19

empathizing with that dilemma when

6:21

it came to Elanor's

6:23

choices? I

6:25

don't know about that. I just felt like

6:28

she now has the weight

6:30

of this company on her shoulders, and it's

6:32

success.

6:33

And so

6:35

I could understand that pressure

6:37

that she was now under. and

6:40

I was interested to see

6:42

where I was going.

6:45

There's a scene that I love at the

6:47

end of episode two where Eleanor uses

6:50

to be bullied by that TV interviewer, and

6:52

she doubles down on the CoStar

6:54

partnership. And we actually

6:56

have the clip here. you're

6:58

still pretty new at this, right, LNR?

7:00

I mean, you think your dad would have gone

7:02

for something like this. Is

7:06

your earpiece working? Oh,

7:09

you're coming through loud and clear bill,

7:11

but there's a small problem with what you're

7:13

saying. the technology we acquired

7:15

in that deal is not snake oil. And

7:17

with reference to my father, he would

7:20

have been very impressed by the fact that these

7:22

therapies have been proven effective in several

7:24

double blind studies that we are preparing

7:27

to publish.

7:28

Whoa. Wait. So you're not

7:30

canceling the deal? The deal

7:33

stands.

7:34

Damn.

7:36

Elanor is that, bitch? Is

7:38

this is this

7:41

like a whole new Elanor we're seeing?

7:43

Ben,

7:43

what do you think on that? I

7:45

don't think that it's a whole new Elanor. I think

7:47

this is very much the Elanor we've seen in

7:49

seasons one and two because in

7:51

those seasons we saw a

7:54

woman who was struggling to start

7:56

to speak out and was finding her voice

7:58

and finding an inner strength that she didn't

8:00

have coming into our story.

8:03

and now she has it and

8:05

she has been through so much worse

8:07

through all this than some

8:10

you know, CNBC guy

8:13

trying to, like, rattle her.

8:15

You know, Eleanor in season three is strong

8:17

enough to, like, smack that down.

8:19

Yeah. And Ben, you know,

8:21

when it comes to writing something like this

8:23

and the evolution of

8:26

Eleanor, were you at all worried about how

8:28

Gillian would react? to some of these

8:30

questionable decisions, Ellen,

8:33

or makes in the season?

8:34

Yes, absolutely. The whole time.

8:36

Until tracking. Really? Yeah.

8:39

I was very I was was very worried

8:41

because I feel like when an

8:43

actor read something, it's totally different

8:45

from a writer reading something. And then when an

8:48

actor actually performs

8:50

in a in a role. It's totally different

8:52

from the experience of of writing.

8:55

And when the actors kind of go

8:57

into a scene, it's like they're actually

8:59

in there and they're the first people to actually be

9:01

inside the scene and then they come back out and

9:03

they tell you if it felt right or it didn't feel

9:06

right and you can't really know that if

9:08

it's working emotionally until the

9:10

actor does that. Mhmm. And

9:12

so, yeah, I was I was very anxious

9:14

to hear Gillian's

9:16

reaction to it.

9:17

Well, I felt like you

9:20

gave me really great material as

9:22

an actor. You know? So was excited

9:24

by, like, that that's scene we just play. That's a

9:26

fun scene to do as an actor. And

9:28

I don't know one that I've gotten

9:31

to do that many times. And and I

9:33

I was excited by the arc

9:35

of it. You know, yeah, I

9:37

guess it's my job as an actor to make it

9:39

feel cohesive from

9:42

the person we met in episode

9:44

one of season one, but I thought you gave

9:46

me some really great material

9:48

as an act and and gave me the opportunity

9:51

to do things that I, you know,

9:54

like to do and want to do and don't always have

9:56

the chance to do. So I was excited. the

9:58

show, I cohost,

9:59

scam blisters. You

10:02

know, it tells a story of people who

10:04

have secrets or obviously aren't who

10:06

they say they are. or are kind of like

10:08

peddling this fantasy for the sake of money

10:10

and fame and power. And our

10:12

stories are about real people and obviously,

10:15

you know, blood ties as fictional But

10:17

I think there are a lot of parallels,

10:19

especially if you're thinking about

10:22

the business of big pharma. And

10:25

this season deals specifically with

10:28

psychedelics as this potential cure

10:30

all miracle drug, which

10:32

I feel like we are hearing more and

10:34

more of and is becoming increasingly

10:37

mainstream. So I'm

10:39

curious,

10:39

Ben, like, what interested you

10:41

in bringing psychedelics into

10:43

the fall this season.

10:44

Pretty much everything about psychedelics.

10:48

mean, I just find them fascinating

10:51

and as far as like miracle

10:54

cures go, you know, penicillin

10:57

was amazing for humankind, but

10:59

is it like, that sexy of a story

11:02

or that dramatic? No. But

11:05

psychedelics, like,

11:06

that that you have to go through this

11:09

psychiatric experience where you see

11:12

your existence in a completely different way

11:14

and that's the sacrifice you have to make or

11:16

that's the challenge that you have to meet. to

11:18

on the other side be cured of

11:21

what ails you. I mean,

11:23

it's just that psychedelics are potentially

11:25

something that can help with so

11:28

many different conditions, but

11:30

also that the process of psychedelics is

11:32

like really dramatic and

11:34

really terrifying. I mean, I don't

11:36

think there's anyone who has tried them

11:38

who hasn't been a little

11:40

anxious about what the experience

11:43

was gonna be like. And just think that's very

11:45

dramatic. And I and I just thought it would be

11:47

really fun and exciting to

11:49

to tell a story with that.

11:51

Like, again, kind of going back to it

11:52

being something that is

11:54

that fuels certainly, you know,

11:57

of the moment. Is that a part

11:59

of maybe

11:59

what makes

12:00

something like blood ties successful

12:02

or like what makes a season successful? I

12:05

think that's a that's a huge part of

12:08

of why the show has been so successful. I mean,

12:10

I think that, especially with the fiction

12:12

podcast, I think it's enormously helpful

12:14

to be able to give people something

12:17

that's that's very current and that they're hearing

12:19

a lot about in the news. And then telling

12:21

a story where they can

12:24

kind of feel their way through it

12:26

and empathize with the characters and kind

12:28

of experience the topic in an immersive

12:30

way, instead of in a political way,

12:33

or a point counterpoint kind

12:35

of polemical way. So

12:37

I just think that's a it's a unique thing you can

12:39

do with with audio dramas where you can you

12:41

can take something that that people are talking about currently

12:44

and you can take people into the world

12:46

of it and they can kind of feel what it feels like

12:48

to be a part of something that everyone is talking

12:50

about right now. I have to ask

12:52

Ben, is any of the

12:54

psychedelic stuff based on personal experience?

12:58

No. I do

13:00

not I don't have I don't have the guts.

13:03

No. I want

13:04

I am waiting for a totally, like,

13:07

locked down FDA proved,

13:11

padded room

13:13

situation with a trusted medical

13:16

person before I will. I'm

13:19

I have never been able to do the whole, like,

13:21

slimy bag at a concert kind

13:23

of thing. So No. This is a

13:25

Anyone listening has a padded room

13:28

for

13:28

Ben.

13:30

And Gillian, what was your

13:33

take on this kind of psychedelic aspect

13:35

of this season? Well, I thought

13:37

once again, Ben

13:39

had chosen a subject matter that

13:41

felt very much in the world of

13:43

the show that we've already established and something

13:46

that I knew was topical because

13:48

I was hearing people talk about it.

13:51

I don't know a lot of about it

13:53

beyond acting in the show,

13:56

but it felt so right when

13:58

I saw these scripts. Like, I felt like Ben

14:00

really has a knack for marrying

14:04

character and where

14:06

the story you feel would authentically

14:08

go with things that feel very relevant

14:11

and topical. So I was really

14:13

impressed by this choice. You know, it was a big

14:16

task to set season

14:18

three, five years in the future? And

14:20

how is he gonna continue a story that

14:23

could have potentially come to an end at

14:25

the end of season two? And so I thought

14:27

this was a really well chosen area

14:29

for season three

14:30

to explore.

14:31

So three seasons into the show, I'm

14:33

wondering how has your

14:35

relationship evolved between the two

14:37

of you, especially as the story continues

14:39

and and so much changes and it gets

14:42

so much more intimate. I mean,

14:43

I would say from from my perspective, I've gotten

14:45

to work with Gillian more and more

14:47

as we've done each season. And I would say that

14:49

I just I really appreciate

14:52

working with an actor who is

14:54

so communicative and is

14:56

just so clear about

14:58

how the how the material is feeling and

15:01

what's working and what's not working,

15:03

and I just really enjoyed being

15:05

able to have that dialogue recording this

15:07

last season.

15:08

I agree. I really like talking

15:10

through scenes with Ben. I feel like comes

15:13

to it with a lot of thought

15:15

and intention and preparation,

15:17

but then we're also able to sort of adjust

15:20

together on the day if something

15:22

isn't quite working, how either one of us imagined.

15:25

I've I've always really

15:27

loved talking through the material

15:29

with you.

15:30

Yeah. Definitely. Oh, that's so nice.

15:32

It's fun. I mean, we've we've

15:34

been working on this show now for several

15:36

years now. and

15:39

we are always just voices

15:41

to each other or, like, very

15:44

rare.

15:44

Like, it's like one of those work

15:46

relationships where there's, like, this intimacy

15:49

of audio, but yet

15:51

it's still, like, very distant and we're

15:53

on separate coasts most of the

15:55

time.

15:55

Total way.

15:57

We're long distance work friends.

15:58

Yeah.

16:00

This is a special interview episode of Blood

16:02

Ties. We'll have more of my conversation with

16:04

Benjamin Grey and Gillian Jacobs after

16:06

a quick break.

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I'm Sarah Hagee, cohost of Wandery

18:30

Skamp dispensers. You're listening to my interview

18:33

with Blood ties writer, director, Benjamin

18:35

Grey, and the show star Gillian Jacobs.

18:38

There's so much that's new about season three,

18:40

new characters, new storylines, but

18:43

there's also a new way to listen. WonderY

18:45

plus subscribers can hear the episodes

18:47

in Dolby Atmos, which is a very

18:50

immersive surround sound like

18:52

audio experience. And Ben,

18:54

can you tell us what Atmos brought

18:56

to the table? I found it. It

18:58

really elevates the experience. I feel like

19:01

yeah, it really does. I mean, I think that

19:03

especially

19:03

with an audio drama, you're

19:05

trying to create an immersive experience

19:08

for the audience and that's

19:10

why we spend so much time

19:12

on sound design and music and the mix.

19:15

But I would say that what Atmos does is

19:17

it lets you get even more specific about

19:20

how you wanna create

19:22

that immersive environment. So

19:25

if there's a particular sound effect

19:27

that is approaching from

19:29

the distance. You can you can

19:31

pan that left to right if you want in a

19:33

stereo mix, but In atmos,

19:35

you can actually control

19:37

exactly where it is in your

19:39

in your headset as it approaches. It can go

19:42

over you. It can go under you. It can do

19:44

a loop behind you. And it all

19:46

feels so real. And I think

19:48

the really cool thing about bringing it to a show like

19:50

blood ties is that it gives you so many

19:53

more options to heighten

19:55

the suspense and kind of plays

19:57

off of what the audience and the characters

19:59

don't know and are slowly finding out

20:02

in that kind of thrilled of discovery,

20:04

but also the dread of what might be around the

20:06

next corner. All of that just gets heightened

20:08

when you're working in Atmos. Is

20:10

there a specific scene that really benefits

20:12

from the Atmos treatment? Yeah,

20:14

so the scene that everyone

20:16

keeps coming back to is the

20:19

Cold Open of episode four,

20:21

where Eleanor

20:23

and Santino have ascended

20:26

to Dr. Khosar's Mountain

20:29

Lab and are experiencing

20:32

his synthetic psilocybin for the

20:34

first time. So they're basically having a mushroom trip.

20:37

I'm going to count backwards

20:40

from five. And when

20:42

I reach one, you would feel

20:44

the most complete and

20:46

total loving relaxation you've

20:50

ever felt in your

20:53

54I

20:56

don't

20:57

think I can do this. Three. know

21:00

what? Maybe we could do this another time. Two.

21:02

Oh god. I need to check-in on my brother's. One.

21:12

I opened my eyes. and

21:14

I see a red balloon nudging

21:17

against

21:17

a dark green ceiling. The

21:20

room is warm, There's

21:22

a fire in the fireplace, and

21:24

an old telephone, and

21:26

picture of a cow jumping over the moon.

21:29

and a brush

21:32

and a bowl full of mush.

21:35

Holy shit. Good night,

21:37

boom. You

21:39

know, it's it's such a good sequence for so many

21:41

reasons. This idea of getting

21:43

trapped on a snowy mountain and being forced

21:45

to trip on psilocybin

21:47

it it's like something out of a horror movie.

21:50

And Gillian, how do you get into

21:52

that mindset to act out a scene

21:54

like that, especially, you know, when you

21:57

know,

21:57

you're in a booth?

21:58

Yes. So

22:00

I did season three of blood ties

22:02

from home. So I, much like he was

22:04

in a closet by myself,

22:09

which

22:11

is both really fun as an actor because

22:13

you can truly just imagine

22:15

whatever you want, but you also don't

22:17

have a set and props

22:20

and costume and a

22:22

co star, all of those things that so can help

22:24

you get into a moment. So

22:26

it really is an

22:28

act of imagination and reminding

22:31

myself that the entire performance

22:33

on my end is gonna be my voice. And obviously,

22:36

as you just talked about, the sound design

22:38

adds so much to this show.

22:41

But for me, all I really have is my

22:43

voice. And so I

22:46

have to really concentrate try

22:49

to make it as vivid and specific

22:51

in my mind as possible because

22:54

I think

22:54

that helps performance

22:55

wise in for an audience. I

22:58

mean, it sounded great. And this

23:00

is a good time to talk about doctor Kosar,

23:02

and he's one of the new characters in season

23:04

three. And he's genuinely kind

23:06

of scary at times, but I don't

23:09

think it's clear if

23:11

he's a villain. Like, I'm not sure if he's

23:13

a villain. So Ben, I'm hoping

23:15

you can tell us about creating the character and

23:17

how you cast Peter Stormier, who's

23:19

this legendary character actor

23:21

known for films like Fargo, the Big Lebowski,

23:24

my new order report. What was that

23:26

like?

23:26

I mean, I feel like Peter

23:29

kind of came first and then the character

23:31

came out of

23:33

Peter. an actor's dream

23:35

answer. Well,

23:37

no. I mean, he's so he's so specific

23:39

and he was the first person that we

23:42

went out to end, I

23:44

remember seeing in my email that the offer

23:46

letter had gone out as I was about to get on the subway.

23:49

when I got off the subway an hour later,

23:52

I checked my email again, and

23:54

he was in. And he was just so

23:56

excited to be a part of the

23:58

story, so excited to do

24:00

an audio drama. It turns

24:03

out that he got his start doing radio

24:05

plays in Sweden back in the nineteen

24:07

seventies, and so he he

24:09

told me during tracking that this felt like coming

24:11

home for him. Oh, that's so

24:13

nice. Once I knew that we had

24:15

him because I was still writing at that point,

24:18

then I could get really specific about

24:20

the voice, which is this guy

24:22

who is like

24:24

you describe him, Sarah, always menacing,

24:27

but also always slightly comical

24:30

in a way that makes him even more unsettling

24:31

and menacing

24:33

and that you want to

24:36

trust but you can never

24:38

quite wrap your head around him.

24:40

Gillian, I have a couple questions

24:42

about Peter. Did you know him at all before

24:45

this? And were you acting in

24:47

those scenes together in real time? Or

24:49

did you do your part separately? I mean, it

24:51

sounds like you guys are together. That's

24:53

how well it flows.

24:55

he and I were both in this movie

24:57

years ago called Bad Milo,

24:59

that was about a monster that came

25:01

out of Ken Marino's butt and killed people.

25:05

I don't know if he remembered

25:07

me from that, so I didn't bring it

25:09

up. so many that I had

25:12

acted together.

25:14

That's

25:16

great.

25:17

And, yes, we got to do the scenes

25:19

together the

25:21

majority of the scenes we got to do at the same

25:23

time, which is I find enormously helpful.

25:25

And that has always been the

25:27

case with blood ties and one of my

25:29

favorite things about this job

25:32

is that they really prioritize having

25:34

the actors do the scenes together as much as possible

25:37

and a lot of times other

25:39

voice over work I've

25:41

done or typically for animated

25:43

shows, that's not always the case.

25:45

You're a lot of times

25:47

doing the scenes by yourself. And

25:49

so I think being able to do

25:51

these scenes with the other actors

25:54

at the same time has added so much

25:56

to my performance. It's made it so

25:58

much easier

25:58

for me.

25:59

So, yeah, it was really fun. We weren't

26:02

physically in the same space, but

26:04

we were recording at the same time.

26:06

So

26:06

we have another new actor this season, Christian

26:08

Novarro joined the cast playing your half

26:10

brother, Gillian

26:12

Santino. What was it like working

26:14

with Christian? Yeah. Once again, I sadly

26:16

was not able to be in person with

26:18

him recording, but we were doing the scenes

26:20

together, and I think he's terrific.

26:23

I was so excited when I heard that

26:26

he was joining the cast and

26:28

he brought so much to it and

26:31

it was fun to have like different

26:33

brother dynamic on the show

26:35

for this season. I am an only child in

26:37

real life, so I feel like I'm learning what

26:39

it is to have brothers through working

26:42

on blood ties. That's so sweet. And

26:44

how was working with Christian for you, Ben?

26:46

Christian

26:46

was so much fun.

26:48

I mean, he's Christian himself

26:51

and his character, Santino Reyes,

26:53

are so unlike anyone else

26:55

in the Richland universe. And

26:58

the really cool thing about Christian

27:00

was that he was actually telling me

27:02

during recording that he

27:05

feels such an affinity

27:07

for Santino because Christian

27:10

grew up in the South Bronx. he's

27:12

the son of two NYPD

27:15

officers. He feels like

27:17

he's had Centino Reyes's

27:19

life where Santino grew up in the South

27:21

province and then found out he was

27:23

a member of this super wealthy

27:25

pharma magnate family. and

27:28

Christian grew up in the South Bronx and

27:30

then exploded onto the scene

27:32

with thirteen reasons why and suddenly found

27:35

himself very successful in living

27:37

in Los Angeles. And so there's

27:39

a corollary there that he was able to tap into

27:41

to perform the part. And I just feel

27:43

like he brought a lot of energy and a lot of

27:45

humor to the to the tracking, and he was a blast

27:47

to have him with us.

27:49

In the season finale, Eleanor

27:51

literally pledges her undying

27:54

allegiance to doctor Kosar. And

27:56

she embraces this idea that, quote,

27:59

if you wanna be

27:59

great, you can't worry too much about

28:02

being good. And it kind of feels

28:04

like this culmination of Eleanor's journey

28:06

so far where her good intentions

28:08

meet these huge ambitions she has.

28:11

And I'd love to hear what that scene

28:12

means for both of you.

28:15

So for me, it means that she's

28:17

trapped.

28:18

She needs to clear her name. Doctor Cozar

28:20

has is offering her the means to

28:22

do that, and that's what takes priority

28:25

in that moment. And I think what's

28:27

interesting about that scene and with the scene

28:30

that follows is

28:32

that she's still experiencing some ambivalence

28:34

about about what she's doing. She hasn't fully

28:37

committed yet. But

28:39

in this moment,

28:40

he kind of has her trapped. Like, she has

28:42

to she has to say yes. Yeah.

28:44

I agree. And

28:47

season three is really

28:49

her struggling with

28:51

the responsibility of leadership

28:54

and who is she and is she

28:56

gonna stay true to this person that we've

28:58

known her to be for the

29:00

first two seasons.

29:02

And I feel like this is a decision

29:05

that she's made that's gonna alter her

29:07

her life and maybe her vision of herself

29:10

and the choices she's making going forward.

29:12

So I think it's incredibly pivotal for

29:14

her as a person.

29:15

I'd also just say that it's it's one

29:17

of those, like, really fun, what if moments

29:20

where you

29:20

think about what if you were being wrongfully

29:24

framed for a crime or wrongfully accused

29:26

of something, but the clearing your name

29:29

meant obscuring another wrong

29:31

or covering up another wrong. What would you do in

29:33

situation, and it's one of those ethical

29:35

quandaries that Eleanor keeps having to

29:38

confront throughout season three.

29:39

I guess I also wonder if

29:42

Elanor is kind of freed of this idea,

29:43

like, doing good or the right thing.

29:46

I think that's a really interesting point because it's,

29:48

you know, it's It's not a scam and that's

29:50

kind of what makes what Eleanor is doing

29:52

so so human and I think very

29:54

relatable. It's very hard to judge

29:57

if you're not in that position. what

29:59

somebody else's

29:59

choices.

30:01

Her conversation with doctor Kosar,

30:03

it leads to Elanor's genuinely

30:06

shocking decision to bury this

30:08

footage of Bob's murder. And

30:10

Ben, was this a scene you had from the beginning,

30:12

or was it something that kind of came to you

30:14

along the way?

30:15

I knew from the meeting where Eleanor

30:18

was going to wind up, I had

30:20

no idea how it was gonna play out. And

30:22

I don't actually found throughout

30:25

blood ties that these shows play

30:27

so much better if I don't know where things are headed

30:29

when I'm writing them. And so,

30:32

yeah, while I knew where Eleanor was headed,

30:34

I did not know that it was gonna be through that

30:36

scene. And it was just really fun to find that and to

30:38

find the character of Richard

30:39

Ludwig and have it all play out the

30:41

way that it did.

30:43

So at the end of the finale, we flash

30:45

forward to the drug being a success and

30:47

Elanor's final confessional Let's

30:50

hear the clip.

30:51

There's one thing that he didn't tell me

30:53

that I learned for myself.

30:56

It's that all the accolades, the

30:58

award, and the praise and the fame,

31:01

those things don't feel good.

31:04

hey

31:05

They feel

31:07

great.

31:08

Wow.

31:09

Gillian, how did it feel to

31:11

say those final lines? It's chilling to

31:13

listen to it. it

31:15

kind of is because you're so sweet at

31:18

hearing you. Say that you're like, oh.

31:21

No. I just think about, you know, It

31:23

takes me just back to I can remember the

31:25

first day of recording the first episode of

31:28

season one. And I

31:30

think Ben has done such a great job of taking

31:32

you as an audience step by step from

31:34

that person we met to that point understanding

31:38

how she's sort of become a

31:40

rich blend in in that

31:42

way. So once again,

31:44

very fun as an actor, like

31:46

the sort of material that I really enjoy,

31:49

but I don't think I would want to be friends

31:51

with Elanor

31:52

at this moment. Yeah.

31:55

What is it like you hate to see a girl boss winning

31:57

or whatever?

31:59

Before I let you go, I have

32:02

to ask because everyone wants

32:04

to know, is there a blood tie

32:06

season four in the works?

32:09

Yes. Oh, thank god. It says

32:11

to me. Breaking news.

32:13

Breaking news. Excuses. Listeners,

32:16

I'm smiling.

32:16

Yes.

32:18

And we need to we need to talk schedule,

32:21

Sarah, because

32:23

we wanna

32:23

do you guys on the on the on in

32:25

pursuit of the healthcare magnate Ellen

32:27

Richland. I'm

32:28

in. I'm ready to act.

32:31

No. We don't have a we don't have

32:33

a plan yet. We just we we but we are

32:35

starting to work on Yes. And it's very we're very

32:37

excited about it.

32:38

Oh, that's so exciting.

32:40

Benjamin Gray and Gillian

32:42

Jacobs thank you so much for chatting today.

32:44

This was such a lovely interview.

32:45

You guys were so generous with your responses.

32:48

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Sarah.

33:02

This

33:02

is a special interview episode of

33:04

Blood Ties. Thanks to Sarah Hagee

33:06

and our guests, Benjamin Gray and Gillian

33:08

Jacobs. This have episode was produced by Peter

33:10

Arcune. Blood tie stars Gillian Jacobs,

33:13

Christian Navarro, and Peter Stormier, written

33:15

and directed by Benjamin Grey. produced

33:17

by Benjamin Grey. Story by Benjamin

33:20

Grey and Marshall Louis. Sound director

33:22

Alex Kim production services by

33:24

Wolf at the door. sound designed by Dean

33:26

Huggies, mix by Alex Kemp,

33:28

original score by Alex Kemp, edited

33:31

by Ruger's son produced by Toby

33:33

Lawlis, I'm Lindsay Graham, casting

33:35

by Kate Geller, CSA, music supervision

33:37

by Scott Thalaskett's, strange day

33:39

is performed by bikini machine, audio

33:42

engineering by Marcelinovial Pondo Sergio

33:44

Enrique's, Luis Pazito and Chris

33:46

Gimney. Associate producers are Federico

33:49

Toronto and Cameron Wu. Executive

33:51

producers are Gillian Jacobs, Marshall

33:53

Louie, and Meghan Monaco for wondering.