0:05

Well, what happened in the early part of the 20th

0:07

century is when they saw the

0:09

initial evidence for Big Bang cosmology

0:12

and the astronomers who were not theists, says, we got

0:15

to get rid of this. They immediately

0:17

saw that it was just like what the Bible was

0:19

teaching. And so they said,

0:21

and they also realized it made the universe

0:23

way too young, only billions of

0:25

years. That this isn't going to work. That

0:28

we're going to try to salvage

0:30

naturalistic biological evolution. And

0:33

so you got mathematicians like Sir

0:35

Arthur Eddington saying, this

0:37

is repugnant. It's philosophically repugnant. We got

0:39

to get rid of this beginning of

0:41

the universe. But then

0:43

the evidence became overwhelming. There's no

0:45

doubt that the universe has a beginning. There's

0:48

no doubt that it's only billions of years old.

0:51

And so you have philosophical

0:53

consequences. But yeah, I think

0:55

you're referring to certain Christians who want the universe

0:58

to be only thousands of years old.

1:21

The history of our earth is so

1:23

different from what we can imagine. The

1:27

Smithsonian, if they found

1:29

out about a large skeleton

1:31

somewhere, was to go get it.

1:33

I'm going to assume at least

1:35

one person is right. Because if

1:37

one person is right, it busts the paradigm. It

1:39

all goes back to the fallen chair. And

1:42

the problem with the modern day church, they have

1:44

a very truncated view of the supernatural. This

1:46

backdrop that's just pregnant with all

1:48

kinds of meaning associated with this

1:50

Mount Herman event. And

1:57

this guy defects from the kingdom.

2:00

That's a big deal. I

2:07

welcome back to Boy creatures. We have a

2:09

fine when the daily com we got here

2:11

us here astrophysicist off of over twenty bucks

2:13

our podcast. I don't know how much you

2:15

know about us but we talk about all

2:17

the weird stuff in the bible and all

2:19

the weird stuff that happens today and an

2:21

ancient history and south. A lot of that

2:23

is going back to Genesis, going back to

2:25

each history time. My the medalists tear meds

2:27

are the giants and these creatures of people

2:29

see today as obviously recovery creatures by that

2:32

were cited. Have you today? You're from San

2:34

Demus and we have this eighty five on

2:36

our show. We're aiming. Use of see

2:38

Canadian. And he has apologized to

2:40

a sea of and I'm waiting for to have

2:42

an emergency spillway. I mean Gervase Etti miss I

2:44

guess it because you're there for no idea. I

2:46

have died, grew up in Vancouver okay that's at

2:49

the site near but we always make like eighty

2:51

six on the show. We actually had a a

2:53

phone booth and build said at a conference here

2:55

at Conduit Shirts and now we made all of

2:57

our guest come out of the sounders like Bill

2:59

and Ted's so you were saying that the pharaoh

3:02

Okay so then Circle is still a phone booth

3:04

is gone and we live about a mile from

3:06

the Circle media surface as he can make Bill

3:08

and Ted's jokes with and that's why I think

3:10

it's pretty cool. I mean my own with with

3:13

an astrophysicists as he did with foam that together

3:15

to make a functional get hurt in Vienna in

3:17

my view product out there and well the time

3:19

machine be a problem. But

3:22

I was of debris creatures are we're We take

3:24

it off all the time. Like what are

3:26

your thoughts on Bigfoot? That's a question we've asked

3:29

everyone from the Ncr. You're asking the right

3:31

guy like I am. I was raised were Bigfoot

3:33

was invented. On. They called a

3:35

Sasquatch. The Ass of British Columbia

3:37

is the source of all the

3:39

big foot stories are to hear

3:42

ya know? it really got going.

3:44

Was in the early nineteen sixties

3:46

the engineering students to the University

3:48

of British Columbia. They. Had

3:50

a guy who's six foot eight and

3:52

three hundred pounds. So. They came

3:54

up with a big but suit forum. And

3:57

they created shoes me that apply with that

3:59

were. Feet long And then they

4:01

put him up in the mountains. North

4:03

Vancouver. Mervyn in the wintertime. Yeah, Adam

4:06

Trump around in the snow. They.

4:08

Had a big circle of engineering students

4:10

around and because they might make sure

4:12

he didn't get shot by something as

4:14

ssssss and they took all kinds of

4:17

blurry photo southern say and by Rudy

4:19

got sasquatch up and running. A

4:22

photo notices yeah with what we we we

4:24

do a lot of are like we talked

4:27

to the premier bit but scientists just meldrum

4:29

early on on our show and I he's

4:31

gonna have a cast of this this creature.

4:34

And. I. Think the last thing.

4:36

We do a lot of the things you do on

4:38

a show as we go for the data. we try

4:40

to be more scientific. we don't just bring on the

4:42

weird stories and know we do their little bit to

4:44

the way I we do that. but I think said

4:46

we are data driven and I think there's a lot

4:48

of paranormal shows the don't really want to get into.

4:50

So how come you want with Bigfoot, that's a data

4:52

free saying. Well such as If

4:54

Meldrum, he's got the cast and he's

4:56

like the the premier foot expert in

4:58

the world and. He. Was saying

5:01

like look, i'm not a look at footprints like

5:03

nobody else in the world and he's got like

5:05

what is a couple hundred tasks of his sunglasses

5:07

and in his officers in his office and his

5:09

ability for but Brent was as if everything's as.

5:13

As if somebody cast is where he said

5:15

down so he gets he about seats same

5:17

time or i was just as a week

5:20

at as. You. Know. Prove

5:22

the case that this creature is out

5:24

there and it's not just stay a

5:26

hoax the our houses fry. There definitely

5:28

are people out there who are trying

5:30

to. Postal. But it's still been

5:32

going on for hundreds of years and. In.

5:34

A you have all these different names

5:36

native American culture for this creature and

5:38

it's it's. amazing to us how many

5:40

times will be blueprint somebody on. Talking.

5:43

About something unrelated to bigfoot and the have

5:45

a big that story though have seen him

5:48

an encounter dispersal there's one in Franklin of

5:50

all thing disaster next door's been while I

5:52

eat. You don't live here but. He.

5:54

Knew a next door as I were you either as like.

5:57

Social. media for your neighbors near philly

5:59

up in, it sounds really dumb to

6:01

explain this, but essentially it's like all your neighbors are in the

6:03

same little group. For

6:06

Franklin, someone sent us that somebody

6:08

in Percy Priest Park up here

6:10

by the lake had this encounter, thought

6:13

they had a Bigfoot encounter or whatever.

6:15

They posted, this is Franklin, Tennessee. Last

6:18

night, it just randomly sent Nate, somebody

6:20

posted a UFO experience. I

6:23

was actually like, what is happening here? Number

6:25

one on Nextdoor, which is supposed to be just people

6:28

complaining about their neighbors and the people

6:30

that cut their lawn or painted their

6:32

house or do a good or bad job or

6:34

whatever. It's really just a lot of people complaining,

6:37

but it's starting to get weird out there. Everybody

6:39

in the neighborhood is seeing something out here. It

6:41

feels like stranger things. It's not all your see

6:43

stuff, but where's the hair, where's the bones? That's

6:46

always the question. I like it. Where's

6:48

the body? I mean, we've tried to

6:50

tackle the skeptical part of the story. Where

6:54

are the hair, where's the bones? I think that's

6:56

the hard part about doing a show like ours because I

6:58

listen to a lot of paranormal shows before we started this

7:00

podcast, and I wanted better answers.

7:04

One of the big things we talk about is the

7:06

Genesis 6 event where you have these hybrid beings and

7:09

then you have this whole narrative of giants in the Old Testament.

7:13

Where do they come from? How is that possible? We

7:17

try to look at all the data

7:19

for the giants existing through

7:22

things they might have built. Then you have

7:24

the Smithsonian showing up when these things are

7:26

being unearthed by farmers around all North

7:29

America. It's

7:32

difficult because I think, and we could probably talk about

7:34

this today on this episode, our

7:37

listeners are either hardcore conspiracy

7:39

theorists who don't believe. They believe everything

7:41

that science says is a lie. Then

7:44

you have this other group of people who think

7:46

that the Bible and science

7:48

can't go together. That science

7:51

is the ultimate source of truth. I like

7:53

how Jordan Peterson puts it. He says, the

7:56

Bible is the framework of which all truth comes

7:58

from. foundation of truth.

8:00

This is how we know what can be true and

8:02

what can't be true. And I don't

8:05

even know where his heart is in

8:07

terms of his salvation, but he seems to be

8:09

on this kick lately of going

8:11

through the Bible and trying to put these things kind

8:13

of back together. And I love we were here Sunday

8:16

listening to you, and I love that you

8:18

kind of are marrying science in the Bible

8:20

again. And I think

8:22

that sometimes our show is a little

8:25

bit more in the conspiracy realm, and it gets a

8:27

little weird. But I think we talk a lot

8:29

about heaven and

8:32

earth and how can

8:34

spiritual beings be

8:36

– are they physical, are they not physical?

8:38

These are the topics that we talk a lot about on

8:40

our show because I think Luke

8:42

and I often talk outside of the show that

8:45

there's like a kind of a Gnostic view of

8:47

the spiritual realm. It's not somewhere – it's not

8:49

anywhere. And when

8:52

people start like sharing their stories,

8:54

it feels more and more like this

8:58

stuff is interacting. Heaven and earth are colliding. Right.

9:00

They are overlapping each other. And how do we

9:02

make sense of that? And I think it would

9:04

be really good to talk about the science of

9:07

how have heaven and earth sort of

9:09

connect maybe some thoughts on

9:11

Eden and sort of the beginning of the

9:14

story that we're all sort of confused about constantly as

9:16

Christians. I would say too, I would – I think

9:18

your testimony is the perfect place to start. I know

9:20

that you told this weekend and it's probably

9:23

a little bit ad nauseam because you did this –

9:25

you spoke three times this weekend and did the same

9:28

presentation. But I think it's so powerful because you

9:31

are an extremely educated, intelligent

9:34

person who didn't start out as

9:36

being a Christian. In fact, it was the flip. You

9:39

started out as a young budding scientist

9:42

even as a teenager and

9:44

then hanging out at the

9:46

Circle K looking for answers. Can you

9:49

tell us how – what Nate said and

9:51

what I love about your work and you've written 23

9:53

books and I'd like to touch on the last one

9:55

too. I've read Why the Universe is the Way It

9:57

Is in a Matter of Days. I love those books.

10:00

I think the way that, and that's what

10:02

I want to get into with you as well, is you

10:04

have this very interesting analogy of the

10:06

book of nature and the book of Scripture, or

10:08

the book of science and the book of Scripture.

10:11

Those two things are not at odds.

10:14

But I'm going, and I'm kind of, I don't want

10:16

to steal your thunder here, you, but can

10:19

you talk about how you got to a

10:21

place as someone who works in, you

10:23

know, laws of thermodynamics and physics and,

10:26

you know, all of these super scientific

10:28

things, astronomy, you know, measuring distances and

10:31

stars and all these different things, and

10:34

how you ended up as a person of faith. Because

10:36

those two things in our society are always seem

10:39

to be juxtaposed, right? You have this, you

10:41

either believe in science or you believe in religion,

10:44

I'll just say. But that's

10:46

sort of the two roads that it feels like

10:48

society wants to give you. And those two things

10:51

are, seem to be very separate

10:53

or intentionally separate. And yet,

10:56

in our show we talk about how the ancients

10:58

didn't divorce the natural from the supernatural. In

11:00

fact, the ancients, when we read Genesis

11:02

and the Old Testament, they had a

11:05

very much a supernatural worldview. In

11:07

the same way, this is my analogy, I feel,

11:09

in this post-academic, you know, this post-enlightenment academic paradigm

11:12

we live in now, we very

11:14

much divorced science from,

11:16

you know, from the scripture,

11:18

from religion, if you will. And

11:20

so, I'm not going to talk more, but I would love you

11:22

to share your story, because I think it's an amazing testimony

11:25

of someone who really searched out the

11:28

answers, and then you came to the

11:30

conclusion you did. Well,

11:32

I became a serious student of astronomy and

11:34

physics at age seven. Incredible,

11:36

dude, that is the first thought. That's how it

11:39

is. That's how it is, yeah. I was writing

11:41

love poems in seven. Dude, Nate was watching Ninja

11:43

Turtles, yeah. No,

11:45

but every year I was growing up, I

11:47

would look at a different sub-discipline of astrophysics,

11:49

and when I was 16, I

11:52

spent a year studying cosmology, the

11:54

science of the origin and history of the universe. And

11:57

19th century astrophysics, the idea was...

12:00

the universe was eternal. And

12:02

then what happened in the early part of the 20th century,

12:05

they began to see that the galaxies were moving

12:07

away from us. And this was

12:09

the birth of the Big Bang theory for the origin

12:11

of the universe. And you know,

12:14

when I was in my teenage years, there

12:16

was a lot of debate going on. Is

12:18

it Big Bang? Does the

12:20

universe oscillate like you see in

12:22

Hinduism where it reincarnates? You know,

12:24

is it a hesitating universe? Is

12:27

it a steady state universe? And

12:30

I could see that the evidence was favoring Big

12:32

Bang. And if it's Big

12:35

Bang, there's a beginning to the universe. If

12:37

there's a beginning, there must be a cosmic

12:39

beginner. So as at age

12:41

17, I began to say, hey, I want

12:43

to find that cosmic beginner. I

12:45

didn't really know where to look. I

12:48

thought, well, Immanuel Kant's a good place

12:50

to start because he's considered the father

12:52

of cosmology. So I

12:54

read his critique of pure reason. I said,

12:57

you know, this isn't really coming together. It's

12:59

not fitting the astrophysics that I know. I

13:02

looked at Rennie Descartes, and a

13:04

high school I went to is filled with

13:06

refugees from all over the world. And

13:08

so people said, hey, you need to

13:11

read the Hindu Vedas. You need to

13:13

read the Koran, the Buddhist commentaries. So

13:15

I began to go through all that

13:18

Zoroastrianism, Baha'i, and everything

13:20

that they were saying was not fitting what

13:22

I knew to be true about the universe.

13:25

And when I say I didn't really get

13:27

to know Christians until I showed up at

13:29

Caltech, I did see two

13:31

from 30 feet away when I was 11 years

13:34

of age. And these are two

13:36

businessmen that came into our public school, put

13:38

two boxes on our teacher's desk, didn't say a

13:41

single word, but those boxes were

13:43

Gideon Bibles. And there you go. So it

13:45

was at age 17, I began to read

13:47

that Gideon Bible and realize this

13:49

book isn't like the other books I've been looking

13:52

at. It actually

13:54

invites subjective testing. I

13:56

discovered the scientific method in

13:59

the early creation. texts in the Bible. Can

14:01

you explain that? Well,

14:04

a public schooler went to, I got taught

14:06

the scientific method in grade one, grade two,

14:08

is in all 12 years. And

14:11

so, it was something that

14:14

I could see immediately, like just looking at

14:16

Genesis chapter one. It

14:18

begins with a statement, this is the

14:20

point of view from which you're to

14:22

interpret the six creation days. That's

14:25

step one of what we call the scientific method. Don't

14:27

interpret until you first establish the point of

14:29

view. Step two, don't

14:32

interpret until you establish the starting

14:34

conditions. Genesis one two

14:36

gives you four initial conditions. Step

14:39

three, don't even try to

14:41

interpret until you determine what happens, when,

14:44

where, and what order. Those

14:46

are the six creation days. The

14:48

next step is look at the final conditions,

14:50

see how they differ from the starting conditions. Then

14:53

you make an interpretation. When the

14:55

scientific method, your first interpretation

14:58

is lightly held without emotional

15:00

investment, then you want to test it.

15:03

And the thing I noticed about the Bible,

15:05

it had more than two dozen lengthy texts

15:07

that dealt with creation. The

15:09

other holy books would have one. The

15:12

Quran has three, but the

15:14

Bible's got more than two dozen. And

15:17

so, I said, I've got all these

15:19

opportunities to test my interpretation by looking

15:21

at what Job says, Psalm says, Proverbs

15:23

says, Isaiah, 2 Peter. And

15:27

so, and then nine years

15:29

later, I found out why the scientific

15:31

method is in the Bible. That's the

15:33

origin of the scientific method. Back

15:36

in the Reformation era, people were looking

15:38

at the Bible for themselves. They saw

15:40

this. They applied it to their scientific

15:43

research. So it's no accident

15:45

that the scientific revolution exploded out

15:47

of Reformation Europe. That's wild. Do

15:49

you believe that how

15:51

we got that method came from heaven

15:53

itself? We didn't, did God give that to

15:56

his people? Well, something you see

15:58

in the other holy books. books

16:00

as they basically appeal to subjective

16:03

testing. Now, if you have a

16:05

warm feeling, you know it's true. The

16:07

Bible was distinct. It

16:10

actually exhorted objective testing.

16:13

You know, Paul says, put everything to the

16:15

test. Hold fast to that which

16:17

is good and true. And multiple

16:19

times you see the Bible exhorting

16:21

objective testing. Don't believe it until

16:23

you first put it to the test. And don't just test

16:26

the spirits. Test the spirits, right? Yeah. So

16:28

you read the Quran. You read the

16:31

Vedas. So I don't want to point this

16:33

out to our listeners. Like when you're talking

16:35

about you investigate, you actually read

16:37

all of these holy books looking for

16:40

something in a faith

16:44

system that can align with...

16:47

Well, here's the way I put it to the test. I

16:49

said, you know, what I see in the universe, everything

16:51

is consistent. It's harmonious. Yeah.

16:55

It looks like it's a single plan. Yep. So

16:57

I said, if there's a book that comes from

16:59

the one that created the universe, it'll

17:02

have the same characteristics. There won't

17:04

be contradictions. Everything it

17:06

says about science and history will be correct.

17:09

And so I looked for mistakes. So

17:12

I went through the Quran, for example, I said,

17:14

okay, do I see any contradictions here? Do

17:17

I see any statements about future science that

17:19

I know are not true or future history?

17:22

And I did that with all these different holy books.

17:24

And I got to the Bible thing I noticed. Number

17:26

one, it's talking about geography,

17:28

history, and science all over the place,

17:31

way more than the other holy books.

17:34

It's like it's begging you to put it to the test.

17:37

And unlike the other holy books, everything it

17:39

has to say, you can prove is correct.

17:41

It's like Paul says you're without an excuse.

17:43

Yeah. Because you can see that.

17:45

And as an artist and someone who's always been drawn to

17:48

creating things, I always

17:50

find it interesting that when a

17:53

big portion of humans when they read the Bible,

17:55

they don't want to give any credit to someone

17:57

creating this. But yet, if they create...

18:00

something. They sure as heck would want

18:03

credit for what they made. And you

18:05

know, as an artist, you see the handiwork. And

18:07

for me, at a young age, I thought, even

18:10

if I didn't know anything about this, I can... This

18:13

is designed. These

18:15

things are put together and there's ecosystems and it feels

18:19

magical. And I don't know why

18:21

some people just... The magic is out of the equation.

18:24

Well, you know, right on the first page

18:26

it says we're created in the image of

18:29

God. Yeah. It's interesting how we create in

18:31

the same manner that God creates. Yeah. I

18:33

mean, when you look inside the cell, you

18:35

see these amazing machines. You

18:37

see piston engines. I mean, you

18:39

see rotary engines. The

18:42

only difference is they're better than the ones that we

18:44

make. They don't fall apart down here down the road.

18:47

Yeah. So, let's

18:49

just ask for me, Hugh, because... So you

18:51

land on the Bible and you find it

18:53

in Aaron. I know this is your new

18:55

book, right? I'm fishing there. But

18:59

I think a lot of Christians would have a

19:01

hard time saying, oh,

19:04

Big Bang was the theory. Is

19:06

the theory at the time prevailing

19:08

for astronomers, astrophysicists? And

19:10

that has got to be at odds with the creation

19:14

story if you're a Christian or you

19:16

believe the Bible. So how did

19:19

you find those two things congruent? How does that... Well,

19:21

what happened in the early part of the 20th century

19:24

is when they saw the initial

19:26

evidence for Big Bang cosmology and

19:29

the astronomers who were not theists says, we got

19:31

to get rid of this. They immediately saw that

19:33

it was just like what the Bible was teaching.

19:36

And so they said, and they also realized

19:38

it made the universe way too young, only

19:41

billions of years. And they said,

19:43

this isn't going to work. Never

19:45

going to try to salvage naturalistic

19:47

biological evolution. Right. And so you

19:50

got mathematicians like Sir Arthur Eddington

19:52

saying, this is repugnant. It's

19:54

philosophically repugnant. We got to get rid

19:56

of this beginning of the universe. But

19:59

then the evidence... became overwhelming. There's no

20:01

doubt that the universe is a beginning.

20:03

There's no doubt that it's only billions

20:05

of years old. And so,

20:08

you have philosophical consequences. But

20:11

yeah, I think you're referring to certain

20:13

Christians who want the universe to be

20:15

only thousands of years old. Yes, there's

20:17

this young earth idea,

20:20

right? And it's pulling

20:22

from the scriptures and genealogies and... Well, my...

20:25

It feels at M. Yeah.

20:28

Hey, we only differ by six zeros. It's

20:31

only a factor of a million. And you

20:33

look at the difference between both young earth

20:35

and old earth creationism and atheism, and it's

20:37

like, hey, there's a huge,

20:39

way greater difference. Right. Right.

20:42

Yeah, we have some friends that we

20:44

have on the show and they differ. And once

20:46

a theologian and once a researcher, they differ on

20:48

things. But what they say is that what they

20:50

agree on is the hinge, is

20:53

the biblical text and the gospel. Right. I

20:56

think what we've discovered on our show is there could be

20:58

a hybrid of these ideas. And

21:00

we have a lot of people have black and white views of these

21:02

things, but the earth can be old, but

21:05

humans might not be that old.

21:08

We were put here later. Or, you know what I'm

21:10

saying? Like, we can

21:12

rescue some of these, I'm here or

21:14

here, and be like, well, maybe they're both right. Well,

21:17

in that sense, you know, my young

21:19

earth creationist friends believe that Adam and

21:21

Eve was specially created relatively

21:23

recently, thousands of years ago. I

21:26

say, hey, that's our view as well.

21:29

We believe that all of humanity is descended

21:31

from one man and one woman that God

21:33

specially created. Yeah. Now, I

21:35

personally have the creation of Adam and Eve

21:37

during the last Ice Age. So

21:39

we're talking tens of thousands of years ago.

21:41

They're talking thousands of years ago. But hey,

21:44

now we're only differing by a factor of ten. Right.

21:47

Yeah. And I would argue that if you look

21:49

at Genesis chapter 2, it has to be an

21:51

Ice Age event, because it

21:53

tells us that there were four known

21:55

rivers that came close together in the

21:58

Garden of Eden. Well,

22:00

the only location where those four

22:02

named rivers come close together today

22:04

is 200 feet below

22:06

sea level. It's in the southeastern

22:08

portion of the Persian Gulf. But

22:11

during the last ice age, sea levels were 390 feet lower.

22:15

So that would have been dry ground during the

22:17

last ice age. But that's

22:19

wild. We haven't heard... We've talked a bit about

22:22

Eden with theologians. We talked about

22:24

sort of ad nauseam with Tim Mackey from

22:26

the Bible Project and his ideas of... I'm

22:29

glad it was on a mountain though. That was the difference. I

22:31

think you believe that Eden was on a mountain. Well,

22:34

it's on a mountain. It's really difficult

22:36

to get four rivers to come together.

22:38

Well, that was the weirdest part about

22:40

that episode. But we do

22:42

see... We've uncovered that there are a lot of megalithic

22:44

structures underwater. Yes. There

22:47

are some in the... Like the

22:49

Bahamas and the Caribbean. There are some in

22:51

Japan. Even one we talked about

22:53

off the coast of California. There was

22:55

some discoveries of these ancient... That

22:58

they were building. How did they build

23:00

it? There's a lot of water over

23:02

that. Well, it's above... It's underwater

23:04

now, but it would have been above

23:07

water back then. So yeah. I mean,

23:09

we see evidence for human habitation during

23:12

the last ice age. It's not just

23:14

the Middle East. In fact, I've

23:16

just written a book on Noah's flood

23:18

making the point that there's now new

23:20

research that shows what

23:23

we see in Genesis 10 and 11. Where

23:25

humans are living in one locale and

23:28

God scattered humanity over the whole face

23:30

of the earth. What's

23:32

interesting is you get the same date for

23:35

the migration into and colonization

23:38

of Northern Europe,

23:40

Southern Europe, Western Africa, Australia,

23:45

Tasmania, New Guinea, Borneo,

23:47

the Philippines. All

23:50

of that happened at the same time. That

23:52

date is 42,000 years ago. Oh

23:55

wow. So you're in the last ice

23:57

age, which means Noah's flood would have...

24:00

to happen a little bit before that. Why do you think

24:02

Christians have a problem with old earth? Well,

24:04

I think the big reason why is

24:06

they struggle with the concept of death

24:08

before the sin of Adam. And

24:11

so they blame Adam for all sin, but

24:14

basically they think all life. And

24:17

I keep reminding them, if you look at Romans

24:19

5, it says, death through

24:21

sin came upon all people.

24:24

So it's not talking about plants and animals.

24:26

We're the only species that can sin. And

24:29

so Paul is being very careful to say,

24:31

no, this is the initiation of human death.

24:34

We're not talking the death of plants and

24:36

animals. And also notice,

24:38

this seems to be a controversy for people

24:40

who live in cities. If

24:42

you live in cities, you don't see

24:45

the advantages of carnivorous activity. But

24:47

people who live in rural areas recognize,

24:49

hey, you get rid of the carnivores,

24:51

the death rate of the herbivores skyrockets,

24:54

because there's nothing to check the disease. There's

24:56

nothing to check the overconsumption. That's like

24:59

Yellowstone. Yellowstone was a great sort of microcosm of

25:01

that. When they got rid of the wolves, the

25:04

things went haywire. The whole

25:06

ecosystem was messed up. Can

25:09

you walk us through your sussiness? Because

25:13

this is the whole story. You

25:15

read through all these holy texts. You find that

25:19

your views in science

25:21

are backed up by the creation story, and this is

25:23

how it works. I know this is

25:25

also the point where a lot of Christians diverge, because if

25:28

you're a young earther, it's seven days, it's

25:30

seven days. But

25:32

we know that there's

25:34

a lot of ambiguity about that

25:36

word in entirety of Scripture. When

25:39

you walk through talking about the Hebrew and

25:42

the way that you see creation from

25:44

a scientific and also from a biblical standpoint,

25:46

I think it's a compelling case that I

25:48

would love for our listeners to hear. You

25:52

briefly walk through that. Sure.

25:55

Well, I wasn't raised in church. I didn't know

25:57

Christians. I looked at the Bible. I was just

25:59

reading it. at the way it was on the

26:01

page. I didn't even know

26:03

there was a controversy in this issue until nine

26:05

years later. You feel like, wait, what? What's

26:08

going on here? But as I opened it

26:10

up, I said, okay, this

26:12

word day must have at least three

26:15

distinct literal definitions because three are used

26:17

in the text. Creation

26:19

day one is using the word day for the daylight

26:21

hours. Creation day four, it

26:24

uses the word day. It's

26:26

contrasting seasons, days, and years. Today

26:29

is 24 hours, but Genesis

26:31

2.4 uses the word

26:33

day for the entire creation history.

26:36

That's day as a long period of time. And

26:39

then I noticed that the first six days end

26:42

with an evening morning statement. And

26:45

I didn't know what the Hebrew words for evening

26:47

and morning meant, but I knew at

26:49

a minimum that evening morning phrase was telling

26:51

us each day has a start

26:53

time, each day has an end time. Day

26:57

two ends and day three begins,

26:59

so it's six consecutive periods

27:01

of creation. Then

27:03

when you get to day seven, there's no

27:05

evening morning phrase, which means we're

27:07

still in the seventh day. And

27:10

you've got Psalm 95 and Hebrews 4,

27:12

Old and New Testament, both stating we're

27:14

still in God's seventh day. And

27:17

this is the day when God doesn't create. I

27:20

remember telling the audience on Sunday, that

27:23

was like a light bulb moment for me because,

27:26

you know, when I was 11 years of age,

27:28

I read this book on evolutionary biology and I

27:31

said, it doesn't work. We

27:33

have all this evidence for new

27:35

families, new orders, classes, and file

27:38

it before humanity, and none of

27:40

that after humanity. And

27:42

when I read the Bible for the first time, it

27:45

says, this answers the fossil record enigma. How

27:47

do we know it was before? Well,

27:50

okay, when you look before humanity and

27:52

the fossil record, you can

27:54

see evidences for the appearance of

27:57

new body plans amongst the animals, new

27:59

file. you see the new classes, the

28:01

new orders. It's all over

28:03

the fossil record. But as soon as you

28:05

get to the human era, you

28:08

see none of that. We do see some evidence

28:11

for new species appearing, but

28:14

that's about where it stops. And

28:16

so, and then from a

28:18

naturalistic perspective, you

28:20

would say, okay, we got

28:23

gene exchange, natural selection, mutations,

28:25

and epigenetics. This will

28:27

produce small changes in a species over

28:29

time, and eventually you might get

28:31

a new species. And if you

28:33

wait long enough, you get a proliferation of

28:36

species that produces a new genus. And

28:38

if you wait much longer, you

28:40

get a proliferation of genera that

28:43

produces families. Families will produce orders,

28:45

orders, classes. Last of all, you get the

28:48

phylum. But as I explained

28:50

on Sunday, when you look at the fossil record,

28:52

it's exactly the opposite. The

28:54

phylum will show up first, the species show up

28:56

last. And atheistic paleontologists

29:00

look at this and said, this is not

29:02

at all what we expect. It's

29:05

like the more we study the Avalon

29:07

and Cambrian explosions of life, the

29:09

mass speciation events, it's the

29:11

exact opposite of what we predict

29:13

from a materialistic perspective. Something beyond

29:15

the material must be in operation.

29:18

That's the things that aren't evolving.

29:20

So the Darwinism is trash. I

29:22

mean, I don't know how to say it. It's bad science.

29:24

It's bad theory, it's bad science because... Well,

29:27

I will say this in credit for Charles Darwin.

29:29

He said, look, if my theory is right, these

29:32

are things that you'll discover. And

29:35

what I find fascinating is that he made

29:37

a prediction. Okay, the animals

29:39

that look most like us will

29:41

also be the most like us

29:43

in terms of mental and intellectual

29:45

capabilities. He said, test it. Nobody

29:48

tested it until the 21st century. And

29:50

what they discovered is the chimpanzees are

29:53

not the smartest non-human animals. It's

29:56

crows and ravens are the

29:58

smartest non-human animals. way

30:00

smarter than the big apes. And they hold

30:02

grudges too. They

30:05

know your face and if you're mean to them, they know. Yeah.

30:08

So, I mean, can we, let's walk us

30:10

through creation here then. You

30:13

know, as a guy who was in the studio a

30:15

lot, made a lot of songs, recorded a lot of

30:17

songs, you start somewhere and you

30:19

need those parts and those layers in order

30:21

for the song to come together. And

30:23

when you read the Genesis story, you see that God is

30:25

really specific on how he sort of

30:28

adds these layers to creation. What

30:31

do you see there? And do

30:33

you see how it's a scientific

30:36

way that he does this? Because you need, as

30:38

we know, that you need other animals

30:40

and plants need each other. Well,

30:43

that's what got to me when I was

30:45

17, going through the Bible for the first

30:47

time. It's like everything is correct. It's all

30:50

in just exactly the order we would expect

30:52

from the scientific perspective. It's

30:55

like you get in Genesis 1.3,

30:57

let there be light and it says, okay,

30:59

and you got the Spirit of God brooding

31:01

over the surface of the waters. I

31:04

said, that sounds like the origin of microbial

31:06

life. But not until day

31:08

five do you get animals. Not

31:11

until day three do you get any kind of

31:13

vegetation. And so it's like,

31:16

this is what you'd expect. It takes

31:18

billions of years of microbial activity in

31:21

order to transform the chemistry, the surface

31:23

of the earth so the plants and

31:26

animals can exist. And so

31:28

yes, we would expect the trees would be late,

31:30

the animals would be late. And

31:32

then you get into creation day six. It

31:35

mentions three different categories of land

31:37

mammals. And they're

31:40

the three categories that are

31:42

crucial for launching human civilization.

31:44

So it's like, last of all, God created

31:47

these land mammal categories that

31:49

would help us launch civilization. And

31:52

the proof of that is when

31:54

humans came into Australia, they

31:56

wiped out 94% of all the

31:58

large body burden. animal species. They

32:01

couldn't get out of the Stone Age. We

32:04

need those animals in order to launch

32:06

civilization. So it's like God provided

32:08

over the history of Earth

32:11

with everything we need, not only

32:13

to live, but to have global

32:15

civilization so that we can

32:18

take the good news of how we can

32:20

be redeemed from our sin to all the

32:22

people, groups in the world. It was this

32:24

intent all along that we had civilization and

32:26

technology, but that required certain plants, certain

32:29

trees, and certain animals. Do

32:31

you, you know, when I'm

32:33

hearing you describe this, it kind of sounds

32:35

like the modern scientific narrative is similar.

32:39

You know, they believe it was a long time

32:41

and these things evolved. And

32:43

Christians say someone signed the painting.

32:45

Yes. And there

32:47

is a signature on there and modern science

32:49

just can't put that signature on the painting.

32:51

Why is that? Well, they do for the

32:53

universe. I mean, I've got 50 books on

32:55

what's called the anthropic principle. Almost

32:58

all of them written by people who are not

33:00

believers. And they say, look at the universe. We

33:03

see overwhelming evidence that has been

33:05

designed to make possible the existence

33:07

of life. But most of

33:09

them stop at the level of the universe. And

33:12

so what I did in design to the core is say,

33:14

we don't just see it at the level of the universe.

33:17

We see it in our super galaxy cluster. We

33:19

see it in our galaxy cluster. We see

33:21

it in our galaxy. We see it in our

33:23

star. We see it in the

33:26

planets that accompany Earth in the solar system.

33:28

We see it in the asteroid and comet

33:30

belts. We see it in the interior of

33:32

the Earth, the interior of the Moon. It's

33:35

ubiquitous. It's on all size scales, which

33:37

means that there must be a crater

33:39

that was intent on creating a

33:42

planet on which humans can live and

33:44

thrive, where they can have the technology.

33:47

And see what happens there. We're now bringing

33:49

the creator up close. At

33:52

the level of the universe, you can keep

33:54

God at arm's length. But when you're talking

33:56

our star, our Moon, our

33:58

planet, the life of planet Earth,

34:01

now we have, it's very clear, this is

34:03

a God that's paying attention to how I

34:05

live my life. And a

34:07

lot of scientists, and not just scientists, but a lot

34:09

of people in general, they're uncomfortable

34:12

with a God being that intimate

34:14

because it means that this is a God

34:16

that's evaluating my life. Yeah. And so if

34:18

you want to be autonomous, you're going to

34:20

be wanting to deny all this stuff. And

34:23

you see this in Romans 1. They

34:25

know the truth, but they engage

34:28

in self-imposed ignorance because this

34:30

is threatening their autonomy. Do

34:32

you think that's because scientists are trained to feel that

34:34

way about things? Because you have to

34:36

kind of be like a Supreme Court justice, and

34:39

you just have to be like, I'm devoting myself

34:41

to the Constitution, and

34:43

I can't bring my feelings into

34:45

this. Well, scientists are

34:47

just like everybody else. And so, you

34:49

know, there are a lot of believers

34:51

in the scientific community. I mean, it's

34:53

a myth that all scientists are atheists.

34:55

Yeah, but it's like that, you know,

34:57

that you have to get out of that.

34:59

You can't, you know, you can't change the

35:02

data because you feel a certain way. You

35:04

know what I mean? Well, we scientists are,

35:06

you know, trained to be objective, to put

35:08

our feelings aside. But if

35:10

you're truly objective, it's clear there's a crater

35:12

behind all this, and it's a personal being.

35:15

And it's a personal being who

35:17

wants intimate contact with his creation. So

35:19

if you're truly objective, that's a conclusion

35:21

you come to. But

35:23

not everybody comes to that conclusion because

35:26

that threatens your personal economy. Yeah. So

35:28

you're saying that each day is, was a

35:31

very, was a long period of time in which

35:33

God created and continued to create. And each of

35:36

these, it feels like a, like

35:38

you're building a layer on top of this. So God

35:41

creates the universe, and then

35:43

he's hovering over the waters. And then suddenly you talked about

35:45

how the point of

35:47

view changes, right? So you have this big

35:49

macro point of view of God saying, you

35:51

know, let there be light and separate and

35:53

the light and the darkness. And then the

35:55

next scene is from the surface

35:58

of the earth underneath the cloud. I really

36:00

like the way you point the difference there, but in

36:03

these days, in the Yama, I think

36:05

it's the Hebrew, there's, you

36:07

contend that there's a, based on the scientific

36:09

record and the fossil record and that

36:12

these are long periods of time, but each

36:14

time God is creating in these days, in

36:16

these epochs or whatever

36:18

you want to call it, he's

36:21

setting the table for ultimately creating humanity,

36:23

right? But he's, it's like he's making a, it's like

36:25

a recipe. I don't know how to put it, like

36:27

you start with this and then

36:29

you're making the base for the soup and then you're

36:31

adding in, and all these things build upon each other

36:34

to allow

36:36

for humanity to, to

36:39

be able to exist. Yeah,

36:41

we're talking six long, finite

36:43

periods of time. And

36:46

like an astronomy, our data comes from the

36:48

past because it takes time for light to

36:50

travel from the galaxies that we observe. So

36:53

you got people like Freeman Dyson saying,

36:55

we look at the universe, you can't

36:57

avoid the conclusion the universe knew we

37:00

were coming. It's like you

37:02

can see this being step by step

37:04

by step prepared for the entry of

37:06

human beings at the one time window

37:08

when humans can exist. We

37:10

couldn't have existed earlier. We couldn't, we can't

37:12

exist later. We're living in

37:14

that narrow window of time in which the

37:16

physics of the universe and the earth allows

37:19

us to live and thrive. And

37:21

so the time window is going to close, but

37:23

the time window is going to be open long enough that

37:25

we get to move from this creation to the next creation.

37:28

That's actually before, I wanted to ask you about that before

37:30

we got there, but I was going to say, I want

37:32

to just reinforce that what you're saying is, is that, is

37:35

it as this process of creation is happening,

37:37

this is not evolution. God is actually creating

37:39

the animals as

37:42

fully like their full, their

37:44

full pressure. Well, a good analogy is watching someone

37:46

build a home for you. They put

37:48

the framing up first and they put the drywall

37:50

on and then they put the electrical in. And

37:53

so we got God doing the same thing. He's

37:55

building a home and we have

37:58

Jesus saying, I'm going to go away and build. the

38:00

home for you and the new creation. And

38:03

so again, it's a step-by-step process, and

38:05

we're created in the image of God.

38:07

Notice, we create the same way. Do

38:09

you believe that you could go to

38:11

heaven right now if there was a way, there was

38:14

some technology to get there? Is

38:16

it a physical place? Well, the easiest technology

38:18

is just to die, right? True. Here's

38:21

the quick way. Well,

38:24

I say that because sometimes in my church people

38:26

say, you know, I want a perfect healing. I

38:28

said, do you really know what you're asking for?

38:31

You're asking for immediate death so that you can

38:33

be perfectly healed. Well, like

38:35

Jesus' baptism, you know, opens up. Yes.

38:38

And we see it. Right. And

38:40

God says, this is my son, you know, and is it

38:42

someplace we can go to? Well, we

38:44

know there is, just based on the

38:47

physics of the universe. We have space-time

38:49

theorems that prove that space and time

38:51

are created, which means there

38:53

has to be a causal agent beyond space,

38:55

time, matter, and energy. So the

38:58

crudity is a realm beyond this physical

39:00

universe. The physics proves it.

39:02

The Bible's been stating it for thousands of

39:04

years. We got Jesus

39:06

rising bodily from the dead. No

39:08

one can deny that historical fact. And so

39:10

it's like, and hey, we

39:13

do realize that we're not just physical

39:15

beings. You can't explain the

39:17

operation of our mind. Our

39:19

brain is not adequate to explain everything

39:22

our mind does. There has

39:24

to be something beyond the chemistry and the

39:26

physics that explains what we

39:28

do just with our mind. So

39:31

we like a software. There's a software

39:33

in there. Well, that's more than software.

39:35

I mean, our brain is the hardware.

39:38

We can see the software operating within

39:40

the brain, but we don't see

39:42

the programmer. And

39:44

so there's something beyond and physicists

39:46

have devoted, you know, thick books

39:48

to trying to understand. Can

39:51

we explain the human mind with

39:53

the physics that we know of the human brain?

39:55

And the answer is no. There

39:57

really is a spirit nature to it. us

40:00

human beings. Now,

40:34

the plants don't have that. And

40:37

what's interesting about Genesis, it uses

40:39

the word create three times. First

40:42

for the universe, the second time

40:44

in creation day five for soulish animals.

40:47

And it's referring to these animals that

40:49

are endowed with mind, will, and emotion.

40:51

French Bulldogs, definitely. Yeah, yeah, definitely French

40:53

Bulldogs. And

40:56

you can't explain that emotion from physics

40:58

and chemistry and biology. But then it

41:00

says the human beings, it uses the

41:02

word create again. We're not

41:05

just physical and soulish, we're also spiritual.

41:07

Now, as I was mentioning on

41:10

Sunday, God designed these animals to

41:12

form relationships with a

41:14

higher species, us human beings. He

41:17

designed us to form a relationship with

41:19

a higher being, God Himself. There's

41:21

an order. Yeah. I

41:24

wanted to ask this, you're sitting with an astronomer

41:26

and a physicist. There's

41:30

some chapters in your book and why the universe is

41:32

the way it is that talks

41:34

about the necessity for the laws

41:36

of physics and the laws of

41:38

thermodynamics and electromagnetism and these things

41:40

that God has intentionally created that

41:43

hold us. And

41:46

God being a God of order, can you espouse

41:48

a little bit on how

41:50

those things, why and how

41:52

those things hold our lives together.

41:56

Well, I wrote that book because

41:58

the only argument that atheists... have

42:00

for their atheism, they say, an

42:02

all-powerful, all-loving God would not tolerate

42:04

evil and suffering for his creatures.

42:06

Yeah. And I said, someone

42:08

needs to write a book about the physics of evil.

42:11

So that's why the universe is all about, why

42:14

the universe is the way it is. Basically

42:17

making the point that, yes,

42:19

thermodynamics, gravity, electromagnetism, the strong

42:21

and weak nuclear forces, that

42:24

permits physical life to exist.

42:27

But those laws of physics are

42:29

often designed so that evil

42:32

can be eradicated quickly and

42:34

efficiently while our free will

42:37

is actually enhanced in its

42:39

capacity to receive and experience

42:41

love. And the

42:43

proof of all that is the

42:45

moment that evil is eradicated, there's

42:47

no more thermodynamics, there's

42:49

no more gravity, there's no more

42:52

electromagnetism. The second proof is that

42:54

we notice those laws of physics

42:56

work to restrain the expression of

42:58

our evil. It's something I

43:00

taught my sons when they were growing up, saying,

43:03

look, if I don't discipline you, the laws of

43:05

physics will. The laws of

43:07

physics will be a lot harsher. Yeah, they

43:09

will. And it's like, you see this in

43:11

Genesis chapter 3, the moment

43:13

Adam needs sin, God says

43:15

from now on, you're going to have to do

43:17

more work. You're going to experience more

43:19

pain. And the problem

43:21

is when we sin, we

43:24

ruin things. And it takes

43:26

extra work, extra time, and

43:28

extra pain to undo

43:30

the damage that our sin and evil is

43:33

caused. And none of

43:35

us biologically enjoys extra pain, extra

43:37

work, or wasted time. So

43:40

the laws of physics motivate us

43:42

to avoid evil and pursue virtue.

43:44

But we quickly discover we

43:47

do not have the resources to do what

43:49

the laws of physics impel us

43:51

to do. And this is

43:53

God saying, look, I'm here to do for you what

43:55

you can't do for yourself. Come

43:57

to me. And when I read the book of Job, I

43:59

read it. realize this book is the oldest book

44:01

in the Bible, Job figured

44:03

it out. Smart guy. He figured

44:06

out. Yeah, he's a smart guy.

44:08

He figured out that the physics of the

44:10

universe is designed to show us, hey, if

44:13

you go down an evil path, there are

44:15

consequences and they're not pleasant. And

44:17

he also figured out, I don't have the resources

44:19

to do what I know must need to be

44:22

done. I was going to say, I

44:24

was, the rumor is you were friends with Chuck Missler

44:27

and John Eldridge. Yeah,

44:30

John Eldridge. I actually baptized

44:32

John Eldridge. Let's go. He's

44:35

still wild at heart, man. Oh yeah, he's still wild

44:37

at heart. I know Chuck was kind of

44:39

early to a lot of the stuff that we talk about on our

44:41

show. We talk a lot

44:43

about how this science and technology was

44:45

given to us, like, outside of,

44:48

you know, what God intended,

44:50

that these sons of God

44:53

exchanged women for technology. I know that, like,

44:57

it's briefly mentioned in Genesis, but what

44:59

I think is interesting is that you

45:02

see this explosion in technology,

45:04

which obviously is the science behind

45:06

it. How much

45:08

of that have you explored and what do you

45:10

think? Well, Chuck, I mean,

45:12

I got to know Chuck. He

45:15

likes to speculate. Sure. But

45:17

often the speculation goes way too far. That's

45:20

our show. Yeah. We love

45:22

that. But, yeah,

45:25

I was explaining to Chuck, I

45:27

mean, the ancients didn't need any

45:29

help from supernatural beings to do

45:31

everything that they accomplished. It's

45:33

in my latest book, Rescuing

45:36

Inerrancy, where I got a chapter saying

45:38

the ancients weren't stupid. They

45:40

built thousands of stone observatories, so there's

45:43

no problem for them to build pyramids

45:45

and other structures that

45:47

were accurate to an art minute precision.

45:50

They had the technology to pull that off. They

45:53

didn't need any help from extraterrestrial

45:55

beings. That's ancient alien theory, right?

45:58

Yeah. Yeah. They

46:00

knew the world was spherical. They knew how far

46:02

away the sun was. They knew the stars were

46:04

bodies. I mean, they were not dumb at all.

46:07

So... Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. Like, what

46:09

are some things that they did scientifically?

46:12

You can look back and be like, yeah, they

46:14

knew. They knew stuff that we didn't know today.

46:17

Well, we now know that the... Because when

46:19

I was in school, we were taught that

46:21

the ancients believed the world was flat. The

46:23

truth is, no matter where you go in the world,

46:25

they all knew that the world was spherical. The

46:28

Flat Earth hypothesis was actually

46:30

invented in the 18th century.

46:32

It was invented by European

46:36

philosophers who were intent on

46:38

discrediting Christianity. So they came

46:40

up with this idea that the ancients believed

46:42

that the world was flat, that they believed

46:44

that there was a metal dome over the

46:46

earth with water above. And

46:49

I make the point, hey, in Egypt

46:51

and Mesopotamia, they were irrigating their agricultural

46:53

land. They knew Archimedes'

46:55

principle, that there was a limit to how

46:58

high up you can pump water. So they

47:00

knew the dome thing wasn't correct. And one

47:03

of the things I put in my latest book,

47:05

Rescuing an Heresy, what's interesting

47:07

about humans, we engage

47:09

in fantasy. And that's

47:11

counter to our best interests in terms of

47:14

basic survival. You want to spend all your

47:16

time making sure you've got food on the

47:18

table and shelter and all that. And

47:21

yet even the most primitive societies, they

47:23

spend an inordinate amount of time

47:26

on fantasy. And all of

47:28

us enjoy that. And so

47:30

I say, hey, the ancients wrote

47:32

about this dome over the earth, but that

47:34

was part of their fantasy literature. It was

47:36

not part of their science literature. So

47:39

I'll give you a quick example. How

47:42

about 15 centuries from now, we

47:44

have archaeologists doing

47:47

their work in the ruins of Hollywood,

47:50

and they find these film canisters. And

47:52

say, boy, people in the 20th century were

47:54

sure dumb. They thought dinosaurs were

47:56

from the earth, and people were making pets

47:59

out of them. And so

48:01

your They could easily presumed that

48:03

The Flintstones was actually a science

48:05

documentary. And of fact, it's just

48:08

fantasy there. And so it's crucial

48:10

we distinguish between the fantasy literature,

48:12

the ancients, and their science literature,

48:14

and their history literature. Southern.

48:17

He said that I want to do was add to the almost.

48:19

Got there with the. With. Third day,

48:21

seven of of creating right. And so we

48:23

know that. You. Mention this

48:25

when God creates than the new the new

48:27

have as a new Earth. When a new

48:30

Jerusalem we talk about surveillance of comes down

48:32

you You said it's all of the. Laws.

48:35

Of physics them an absolute and gravity

48:37

etc will discipline. Will. Cease to

48:39

exist and in this. In.

48:41

This nice Macys I want the second. Your.

48:44

Ideas of what the second creation is going

48:46

to. Sort. Of entail because you stages

48:48

I a little. You put that like day seven

48:50

doesn't end. And God is resting

48:52

not creating right So as I as an eye

48:54

and he gets. Super. Stomach as

48:56

we we don't see. The. Things that

48:58

we would have seen. In. The previous

49:00

day's right. Like in their system it

49:03

is. It is as as it is

49:05

and sell for six days God traits.

49:07

On the seventh day he ras the

49:09

seventh day will end when his work

49:11

of redemption is done. That What I

49:13

find interesting is that our service. Is.

49:15

A day we put aside to focus on

49:18

the most important issues of life. And.

49:20

When I notice and not bible, it

49:22

says a God began as works of

49:24

redemption before he created anything at all.

49:27

Which. Implies everything. The Guard treats

49:29

his for the purpose of making

49:31

possible the redemption of billions of

49:34

humans from their sins and evil.

49:37

That's. Incredible! Think about are you a me

49:39

and I Target knew was coming in

49:42

so he intently design he intently designed

49:44

it with redemption and mizen him and

49:46

was really amazing is everything we see

49:48

in the universe. Oil that see Vance.

49:50

All. Of its components is designed to

49:53

make possible the redemption of billions a

49:55

human beings. But I'm telling my secular

49:57

peers, look, I. know you're not a

49:59

christian I know you're not even a theist, but

50:02

if you will do your scientific

50:04

research from a biblical redemptive perspective,

50:06

it'll make you a better scientist.

50:09

You'll be more efficient in making discoveries.

50:12

Based on the principle, everything that

50:14

we see is designed for redemption.

50:16

And of course, my goal is that once they see that

50:19

it works, it makes them a better

50:21

scientist. They say, gee, I think I better pay

50:23

attention to what this book, the Bible, is saying

50:25

about what I need to do with my life.

50:27

What do you think this new creation looks like,

50:29

Denim? Well, I think the fundamental point is this

50:31

day of rest is going to end. God will

50:33

create again. Jesus said He's going away to prepare

50:36

a place for it. There's an eighth

50:38

day of creation coming. And for that

50:40

matter, maybe God's got a whole bunch of creation

50:42

weeks on His calendar planned out.

50:46

Who knows? The amazing thing is He

50:48

says, I'm going to use redeemed humans

50:50

to manage my new creation. And

50:52

they'll be teaching the angels, and they'll

50:54

be managing everything that God creates. And

50:57

yes, when you read Revelation 21, it says

51:00

there's no death, there's no decay.

51:03

Nothing decays. That means no

51:05

thermodynamics. And then it

51:08

talks about light where there's no shadows or

51:10

darkness. This isn't electromagnetism.

51:13

It's a completely different kind of light. In

51:15

fact, it says we'll all glow with light, and

51:18

God will glow with the brightest light of all. So

51:21

it's like everything's going to be radiating

51:23

some kind of non-electromagnetic light. And

51:26

you mentioned the New Jerusalem. I

51:28

mean, Revelation 21 describes it

51:31

as an enormous structure. A cube out

51:33

here. A cube or a

51:35

pyramid with corners, and it's 1,500 miles on each

51:37

side. And

51:42

as a physicist, I can tell you if there's gravity,

51:44

anything that big will be forced

51:46

into a spherical shape. This

51:49

is not spherical. It's got corners. So

51:52

we're talking about no gravity. And

51:55

it's like, OK, if nothing's going to decay, gravity

51:57

will make things decay. I

52:00

mean, if you live long enough, your chin will

52:02

begin to pull down towards your belly. Right. Yeah.

52:06

Other things sag a lot too. A lot of things don't sag, right? We

52:08

don't know. We don't know about that

52:10

yet. It's dark, baby. Q, what

52:12

do you think scientifically changes when sin

52:14

enters the scene, like about

52:17

Adam, the creation of self?

52:19

Well, tells us in John 3, 18, it

52:21

says, cursed is the ground because of you.

52:25

It's not that God changed the ground. He

52:27

didn't change his physics. He didn't change

52:29

the earth. It's humans that were

52:31

changed. And because humans are

52:34

now sinners, when they work the ground, they

52:37

spoil the ground. The ground doesn't produce like

52:40

it should. We see this today.

52:43

Farmers are abusing the soil that they're trying

52:45

to get that food from. And

52:48

so our abuse makes it less productive.

52:51

We abuse the animals instead of taking good care

52:53

of them. We abuse them

52:55

and they become less productive for us. And

52:58

oh yeah, what changed was human beings. And

53:01

we see that explicitly stated in

53:03

Jeremiah, where God says,

53:05

hey, you people change your mind

53:07

all the time, but I'm a

53:09

God that's immutable. I don't change. As

53:11

proof, what do the laws that govern

53:13

the heavens and the earth? As

53:15

they don't change, I don't change. So

53:18

the physics has been intact since God

53:20

created the universe. They'll

53:22

remain intact, according to Romans

53:24

8.23, until the full

53:26

number of humans that God intends

53:28

to redeem have been redeemed. When

53:31

that happens, the laws of physics will

53:33

have fulfilled their ultimate purpose, and

53:36

God will replace the laws of physics with

53:38

different laws of physics. I think he's even

53:40

going to replace the dimensions. We're

53:43

not going to be constrained to a single

53:45

dimension of time in the new creation. I

53:48

don't know about you guys, but when I gave my life

53:50

to Christ, I thought, gee, my name's

53:52

near the end of the alphabet. I'm

53:54

probably going to have to wait

53:56

several million years to have a

53:59

private conversation. Paul or

54:01

Moses or David and

54:03

realize, wait a minute, I'm wrong. In

54:05

the new creation, we're going to be

54:07

delivered from linear time and

54:09

be able to experience geometric time.

54:12

So billions of us will be able

54:15

to have a simultaneous private one-on-one conversation.

54:19

What do you think changes about

54:21

humans then, scientifically? If creation's

54:23

cursed and it's still fairly

54:26

what it was, what changed

54:28

about a human being? Well, what

54:31

changed about human beings is

54:33

that we now are in rebellion against God. And

54:36

so we were not taking instructions from God.

54:39

I mean, God says, hey, I'm

54:41

making you human beings managers. You're

54:43

to manage the planet for your benefit and

54:45

the benefit of all life. But

54:48

because of our sin, we say, hey, we're

54:50

going to put our benefit above the benefit

54:52

of all of their life. Or

54:54

I'm going to make it my benefit, but

54:56

it's not going to be your benefit. So

54:58

we begin to express selfishness

55:00

to a degree that spoils it

55:02

for everybody. Do you believe genetically

55:05

we changed, though? I

55:07

don't think we changed it genetically. What

55:10

we notice is that the moment that Adam and

55:12

Eve sinned, he kicked him out of the garden

55:15

and he sent two angels to prevent them

55:17

from having access to the tree of life.

55:20

The tree of life was there to

55:22

reverse the effects of thermodynamics and gravity.

55:25

So it's like, that's why I think Adam

55:27

and Eve sinned relatively quickly. Because

55:30

if they had waited

55:32

40 years to sin, they would say, gee, I noticed

55:34

a little bit of decay here. I better go to

55:36

that tree of life and fix it. But

55:39

the fact that they saw no need to go

55:41

to the tree of life tells us they probably

55:43

sinned relatively quickly. That's what I was going to

55:45

ask. I was going to ask if you thought,

55:47

and that's actually the answer. I was going to

55:49

say, if in the garden, the laws of

55:51

nature, if you've also thermodynamics, electromagnetism,

55:54

that was different, but it

55:57

makes more sense that there was a source. That

56:00

they they could sort of fun and ever generator

56:02

or are not a it was the fountain of

56:04

youth right where they eat from the tree of

56:06

life and they derive. they don't die. But.

56:09

He I mean doubt it would that would have. Precipitated.

56:12

We. Were. Because

56:14

of the for death entered the world right? Well

56:18

okay okay been adi maybe is as

56:20

we could dk buy them from getting

56:22

access the tree of life. We could

56:24

reverse the decay. And. So

56:26

that's why God says hey, we gotta

56:28

stop them from getting as a tree

56:31

of life conceal live forever physically that

56:33

the dead forever spirits lane for God's

56:35

goal was to use physical death to

56:37

delivers from the far worse consequence of

56:39

spiritual sense of. So. There

56:42

was some sort of. Our

56:45

angelic beings dying at a

56:47

slower rate than humans and

56:49

wealth notice there's no redemptive

56:51

opportunity for the fallen angels.

56:53

When. They send it was permanent. Because.

56:56

You're already in our and

56:58

eternally existing state. And.

57:01

So that's why God rushed to and

57:03

serve. We didn't get acts as a

57:05

tree of life. He didn't want us

57:07

to be in the same ah, horrible

57:09

spots that the fallen angels were sent

57:11

a mercy. A real as an act

57:14

of mercy saying hey, Ah, And.

57:17

Notice. He loved the so much even

57:19

was willing to have his own son of

57:21

be killed and a half. Yeah.

57:24

I. Know and. As we talked

57:26

about that a little bit on the on the show.

57:29

That. It seems like some

57:31

people have a little bit more of a

57:33

gnostic view. Of the

57:35

of Edens more like. A

57:37

stereo said fantasy. go sleep.

57:40

it was an axe and

57:42

actual place. metaphorical. so

57:44

i think it's a real place is subject

57:46

to the same physics at everywhere else i

57:49

here on earth as such yeah to the

57:51

physics was no different the only difference was

57:53

it was planted my god it's a lot

57:55

easier to take care of a garden that

57:57

someone actually fixed up thirty in the first

58:00

place. And then there was that tree

58:02

of life in the middle of the garden where they say, hey,

58:04

you ever notice any decay? You can go there. Do

58:07

you think that, okay, if

58:09

we have this longer time period and

58:12

the Earth is much older, were there

58:14

other humans existing around

58:16

Adam and Eve when they were in

58:19

Eden? I don't think so. We do know

58:21

there were bipedal primates, but

58:23

it would be one of those

58:25

bipedals. Sasquatch? No, not Sasquatch. Neanderthals?

58:28

He was out there. Neanderthals, yes.

58:30

Come on. Bulma erectus, yes. Well,

58:34

I mean, you talk about Sasquatch. There's been

58:36

speculation that maybe some of the Neanderthals survived

58:38

and that's what Sasquatch is all about. Let's

58:40

go. All about himself. Well, some people

58:42

say, you know, there was like, you

58:44

know, there was language that seems to

58:47

suggest there were even

58:49

with Cain and Mark and Cain and

58:51

there was people that

58:53

have an idea there was pre-edemic people groups.

58:56

Well, for what it's worth, I got a

58:58

whole chapter on the nathalem in my book

59:00

Navigating Genesis and an appendix. And

59:02

you might write this. I got a piece in there

59:04

called the Physics of Basketball. Great. And

59:07

the Physics of Basketball is that

59:09

your ability to sink a basket

59:11

given equal skill goes up

59:13

with a square of your height, which

59:16

means the seven footer should get twice as

59:18

many baskets as a five footer. But

59:21

what you notice in the NBA is

59:23

that once you get above seven feet, their

59:26

scoring ability drops. And

59:29

if Gary's not tall. Yeah. Well,

59:32

the problem is that you lose mobility when

59:34

you get to that height. And

59:36

so you probably aware there was a big

59:38

feud between Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal. Yeah,

59:40

here we go, Hugh. Here we go. You

59:42

know, it was the course of that. They

59:44

were good friends. What was

59:47

annoying to Kobe Bryant, he had to

59:49

wait for Shaquille O'Neal to lumber

59:51

down the court. He was

59:53

way more mobile and it's like, I'm going to

59:55

sink the basket if you're not coming down here

59:57

fast enough. There's a lot of pride there too. Unless

1:00:00

they had some sort of genetic... Well,

1:00:02

that's my whole point, because once you

1:00:05

get about eight feet, the loss of

1:00:07

mobility is really severe. And

1:00:09

what we notice in the Bible, Goliath, even

1:00:11

if he uses a short cubit, he's

1:00:14

nine feet, nine inches tall. And

1:00:16

it says he carried at least

1:00:18

250 pounds of weapons and armor

1:00:21

into battle. No

1:00:23

human at that height would

1:00:25

be able to do that. And

1:00:27

he was able to fight. And

1:00:29

so it's like there's something supernatural about

1:00:32

the Nephilim. And then you got

1:00:34

Og the King of Bastion. He had a... It's

1:00:37

a 13-foot bed. 13-foot bed. 16-foot.

1:00:40

Old King of, you know? He likes his big beds.

1:00:42

He likes his big beds, yeah. What

1:00:45

would you say is something fantastical

1:00:47

that you believe in, that your

1:00:50

peers or people in the field

1:00:52

of science would say, that's crazy? Because

1:00:55

I mean, I think on our show, I've

1:00:57

heard so many stories. And if some of these

1:01:00

are true, then I've got to make room

1:01:02

for them. Well, where I get it is

1:01:04

that, you know, I was an amateur astronomer

1:01:06

before I became a professional. And

1:01:08

so, and this goes back to my teenage years.

1:01:11

And so I was the one that had to

1:01:13

process all the UFO reports. So

1:01:15

I wound up becoming an expert on UFOs

1:01:18

without any intent. I just

1:01:20

said, hey, you know the night sky? You process

1:01:22

the reports. And what

1:01:24

I noticed is I was very skeptical about

1:01:26

UFOs. I thought, oh, they're all natural explanations.

1:01:28

So they're hoaxes or the

1:01:30

secret military activity. I

1:01:33

could explain 99% of what people

1:01:35

reported to me, but there was

1:01:37

a 1% residual that I could not

1:01:39

explain. And I'm not

1:01:41

alone. There's over a dozen physicists who've

1:01:44

devoted at least a decade to studying

1:01:46

what are now called UAPs. Right. And

1:01:49

they've changed it in accurate. They keep

1:01:51

changing the acronym, right? Well, those are

1:01:53

supposedly non-government and then the UFOs are

1:01:55

government, you know. So that's what I

1:01:57

can share with you. There's about two.

1:02:00

2,000 documented cases where multiple

1:02:02

observers see a UAP

1:02:05

going through the atmosphere and going

1:02:07

through at a high velocity, 5,000, 10,000 miles per hour, no

1:02:09

sonic boom, no heat friction, and

1:02:15

they actually crash into the Earth. You

1:02:17

go to the crash site, you see a

1:02:20

shallow crater, you see melted

1:02:22

snow, you always see damaged vegetation,

1:02:25

but there's not a single artifact to recover,

1:02:28

no debris. Every time? No

1:02:30

debris, no artifact. What do you think about Roswell?

1:02:32

Because they found... Oh, I've been to Roswell. What

1:02:34

do you think about that? It's a great tourist

1:02:36

place. Everybody dresses up like a UFO being, they've

1:02:39

got flying sausages everywhere. Well, sure. But I mean

1:02:41

like, so L.A. Marzulli is like an understudy of

1:02:43

a missile or went there and he took a

1:02:45

metal detector, found pieces of metal, and then he

1:02:48

had Bob Lazar who... Well,

1:02:50

here's the problem. ...saying there's nobody... Nobody's...

1:02:53

They talk about these artifacts, but nobody

1:02:55

can produce it. Well, that

1:02:58

would be advantageous to our government, right? Well,

1:03:00

for example, I've seen lunar rocks brought back

1:03:02

by the Apollo astronauts. Sure, sure. I've seen

1:03:04

them up close. Did you keep one? No,

1:03:06

I didn't keep one, but I had a

1:03:08

friend actually handle one of them. He had

1:03:10

authority to handle one. So there's

1:03:13

no doubt that, you know, we've been to

1:03:15

the moon, we brought moon rocks back, but

1:03:18

there's no museum that shows a piece

1:03:20

of the UAP. What's the problem

1:03:22

of a physical craft created

1:03:24

by an angel be

1:03:26

for you? Well, that's

1:03:29

where I'm going. The

1:03:31

fact that we see a crater

1:03:33

and damaged vegetation tells

1:03:36

us this is a real phenomena.

1:03:39

It takes something to make that crater

1:03:41

and damage that vegetation. But

1:03:43

the fact that we don't hear a sonic

1:03:46

boom, there's no heat friction, there's no debris

1:03:48

at the crash site. Tells

1:03:50

us we're dealing with something

1:03:52

non-physical. Now, when I was at the University

1:03:54

of Toronto, I briefly had Carl Sagan and the professor. Or

1:03:57

they're good janitors and they just pick it up. Yeah,

1:04:00

but two thousand places and nothing. Nobody

1:04:02

can report anything. Nobody can

1:04:05

produce an artifact. So

1:04:07

what that tells me, we're

1:04:09

dealing with non-physical reality. And

1:04:11

where I get it from my peers is I

1:04:13

say, there's no such thing as non-physical reality. But

1:04:16

as a Christian, I know there

1:04:18

is something non-physical and real. We

1:04:22

got God beyond space and time,

1:04:24

creating the universe. The

1:04:26

Bible tells us that God created

1:04:28

two distinct species of intelligent life.

1:04:31

Humans that are constrained by the physics of the

1:04:34

universe, angels that are

1:04:36

not constrained. And the Bible

1:04:38

tells us these extraterrestrial

1:04:40

beings are given

1:04:42

the property to come into our realm and

1:04:44

leave our realm. We can't

1:04:46

go to their realm, but they can come to our

1:04:48

realm. So I think we're dealing

1:04:51

with an angelic phenomena here. And

1:04:53

when you look at the close encounters with

1:04:56

these UAPs, we realize

1:04:58

this is not beneficial. In

1:05:01

every single instance of a close encounter,

1:05:03

it's harmful. So I think

1:05:05

we're dealing with the fallen angels. And

1:05:08

hey, you were talking about Sasquatch earlier. I

1:05:10

mean, you go to Ireland, they talk about

1:05:12

the leprechauns. And the fairies. The kind of

1:05:14

fairies as well. The fairies. Yeah, this stuff

1:05:16

has been going on for thousands of years.

1:05:18

It's not new. And

1:05:20

so we shouldn't be surprised at these. One

1:05:23

way we notice is these angels, they can

1:05:25

appear in any physical form they want. I

1:05:27

mean, we had Abraham

1:05:30

actually giving dinner to the angels. They

1:05:32

were eating. Well,

1:05:35

do angels have a body? Well,

1:05:37

they can take temporarily a physical

1:05:40

form. So they can appear

1:05:43

as an animal. They can appear as a flying

1:05:45

saucer. They can appear as a leprechaun.

1:05:48

Can they take over an animal or

1:05:50

they become an animal, shape-shifting? Because shape-shifting

1:05:53

sounds like they're magical. They

1:05:55

have powers beyond, it seems like God's created

1:05:58

order. They're doing whatever they want. I.

1:06:00

Mean, I've encountered people that have been

1:06:02

possessed by demons. Yeah, and this is

1:06:04

where it. A demon comes inside a

1:06:06

human being and takes over the body

1:06:09

of the human being or the brain

1:06:11

or whatever. Mussina. Ah so.

1:06:13

And they can do that with an animal. So.

1:06:16

When I read in the bible, but a

1:06:18

Talking Donkey A said while you're that's within

1:06:20

the realm of possibility. Or.

1:06:22

Or his back to the order of creation

1:06:24

right in the weekend. Maybe we one play

1:06:26

we could speak he know an one thing

1:06:29

I can rule out for not talking beings

1:06:31

like ourselves from another planetary system. Because.

1:06:33

We astronomers are exit ah

1:06:36

focus on getting spaceships to

1:06:38

the nearest planetary system. It's.

1:06:40

Only four light years away, For.

1:06:43

We've already figured out the laws of

1:06:45

physics will not permit a spaceship thicker

1:06:47

than ten centimeters across seas. Brilliant idea.

1:06:50

Where. Talk and tiny spaceships. And.

1:06:53

Even then, I. Will we're looking

1:06:55

at is sending a thousand space ships

1:06:57

that are that small. To

1:06:59

the nearest said planetary system. knowing

1:07:02

at least half of them of be completely

1:07:04

destroyed before they get their ah. But.

1:07:06

We'll have another, then they'll be

1:07:08

only partly destroyed. Their will get

1:07:10

back meaningful information. But. It is

1:07:12

a fifty are privately the paper airplane's jelly

1:07:14

to see the golden record this announce face,

1:07:17

yeah, or that know what was on. Wasn't.

1:07:20

A product of a needles or something. There

1:07:22

was a mission is a bit but the

1:07:24

Golden Record Eleven biking So as Vikings let

1:07:26

the solar system yeah that was Carl Sagan.

1:07:28

As said well we're gonna leave the solar

1:07:31

system we have to put a message on

1:07:33

the same and case aliens find that he

1:07:35

has his own music I would rather than

1:07:37

one. That's what I hear that it wasn't

1:07:39

on the verge of mixtape. probably put legs

1:07:41

of other women and number things on my

1:07:44

pillow. Don't matter of solar System that with

1:07:46

songs made it on the go in record

1:07:48

or is one song I forget. which song

1:07:50

a was of his song that carl light for

1:07:52

humor me i feel as if you if you

1:07:54

got to take the songs and i'm home wrecker

1:07:56

food you have put them death while i come

1:07:59

from a family musician But I'm not a

1:08:01

musician so you're asking me you're asking the wrong

1:08:03

What songs do you like if you were to

1:08:05

put one song on there? Well if I had

1:08:07

to put one song I'd probably pick the Brandenburg

1:08:09

Third Concerto Wow, that's a good idea. Yeah, I

1:08:11

love it dude. Yeah. Like we're

1:08:13

gonna put something complex. I think it was remember we shot.

1:08:15

We're gonna wow these guys. I think there was some classical

1:08:17

and there was some modern and they sent it out there.

1:08:19

I just thought that was fascinating as a musician that that

1:08:21

even became a thing and they sent it out to space.

1:08:24

I have one maybe one last

1:08:26

question here and that would be in the

1:08:29

new creation. What

1:08:31

are you most looking forward to in that sense? If

1:08:34

we're not constrained by

1:08:36

dimensional or quantum I guess

1:08:38

you'd say and not constrained by laws

1:08:41

of physics and thermodynamics and you

1:08:44

can sort of put yourself there.

1:08:46

What are you most looking forward to

1:08:48

in that sense? What I'm already looking forward

1:08:50

to is being delivered from linear time and

1:08:53

entering geometric time. The idea

1:08:55

of having intimate relationships with billions

1:08:57

of angels and people and God

1:08:59

simultaneously that's a mind-blower. Do you

1:09:01

explain geometric time to us real

1:09:04

quick? It means being able to

1:09:06

relate in at least two independent

1:09:08

dimensions of time. So

1:09:11

what that means is I could have a trillion

1:09:14

simultaneous relationships one-on-one

1:09:17

as if we're just talking just

1:09:19

the two of us going on

1:09:21

simultaneously. Impossible in one

1:09:23

dimension at a time but you can do that

1:09:25

in two or more dimensions. If

1:09:28

you've seen Interstellar it's kind of like the Tesseract.

1:09:31

That scene where he's kind of… You

1:09:33

know what I love about Interstellar? All the

1:09:35

equations in the background were correct. Really?

1:09:38

Let's go. That's Nolan. I mean

1:09:40

that's how he makes the film. The story was

1:09:42

weird. I mean it's violated the laws of physics

1:09:44

but the equations were correct. I mean I love

1:09:46

how he can take such an intense topic

1:09:50

and mind-bending things and make it

1:09:53

Entertaining for the average person because we're not smart enough to

1:09:55

have a conversation with you. but somehow we managed to do

1:09:57

that. I Don't know how we snaked our way in here.

1:10:00

Repost. Here's the thing is that we have

1:10:02

to be in a single dimensional time Now

1:10:04

says of we weren't he bill would run

1:10:06

out of control. But a

1:10:08

be bulls not a problem. We don't

1:10:11

have to be constrained to just one

1:10:13

dimensional time at. This is why Paul

1:10:15

says no one can think or imagine

1:10:17

how great and wonderful would be. It's

1:10:19

mind blowing to think that week and

1:10:22

have a relationship with one another that's

1:10:24

better than the very best marriage that

1:10:26

ever existed on earth. And. We can

1:10:28

have their. With. Billions of individuals simultaneously

1:10:30

mean that some mine blues that is that

1:10:32

they booed is is is that whether the

1:10:35

dose of sell a booted out of. Out

1:10:37

of have innocence. Not just like that

1:10:39

they are in open defiance, but. The.

1:10:42

Idea that eat evil has to

1:10:44

be generated from yes the the

1:10:46

Heavenly Rome. It's. Our.

1:10:48

Community will will exist but will be completed the

1:10:51

i didn't rain here a container as a few

1:10:53

this my pieces. I can open up a whole

1:10:55

can of worms but when he's when. I'm

1:10:58

one of my thoughts is why I think

1:11:00

about creation. I think about created order. And.

1:11:04

Doing. A show of kind of a you

1:11:06

know the list of characters kind of groves.

1:11:08

What does it mean to you? That

1:11:11

Jesus is the only begotten son of

1:11:13

God. When world

1:11:15

math and. He. Was the first

1:11:17

to be raised bodily from the dead?

1:11:19

Yeah, so he's the first of creation

1:11:22

here because he could be raised by

1:11:24

live in the dead Some could we.

1:11:26

But you. And. John one

1:11:28

is very explicit. A. Son

1:11:30

has always existed. He has no

1:11:32

beginning know and but he is

1:11:35

the first be gotten the first

1:11:37

to be Literally race bodily harm

1:11:39

from the dead into eternal think

1:11:41

certain by again through him By

1:11:43

him for him he created everything.

1:11:46

And. So. As while do that, that

1:11:48

and. That. Of them we've talked

1:11:50

about and all the physics and astronomy

1:11:52

and astrophysics. It. Did.

1:11:55

They use that you buy your life studying ridden twenty

1:11:57

three books about that. Christ's.

1:11:59

create Walked here and

1:12:01

he was the creator of all of

1:12:03

that. That's the mind-blowing thing. The guy

1:12:06

who created literally everything that exists came

1:12:08

and became a human amongst us and

1:12:11

offered to do for us. He was just building chairs

1:12:13

and stuff. He decided he's gonna do something humble, like

1:12:15

just be a carpenter. Right, right, right. Yeah. What

1:12:18

a... Yeah. That is

1:12:20

the mind. You could live there and just try to unwrap.

1:12:24

Also blows me away that, you know, he

1:12:26

had four brothers. He had

1:12:28

a mother. He had sisters. And yet in

1:12:30

front of a large crowd that included his

1:12:32

family, can any of you accuse

1:12:34

me of sin? I mean, you're not gonna

1:12:36

lie to your mother, right? Yeah. Right. I mean, my

1:12:38

mom knows that that's not gonna work. He always cleared

1:12:40

the table. She knows most of the bad things I

1:12:42

did. Sorry, Mom. Always cleaned his room, cleared the table,

1:12:45

and it was nice to his siblings. He didn't make

1:12:47

his bed, though. Did Jesus perform

1:12:49

miracles when nobody was looking? What

1:12:51

do you think? I don't know. What do

1:12:53

you think? I don't know. Well, he says he humbled himself

1:12:55

and lowered himself out of the form of a human, and

1:12:58

he always went to the father to do

1:13:00

anything miraculous. So, I mean, he kept himself

1:13:03

in a humble state. Which is... He made

1:13:05

great wine, too. I mean, his first was

1:13:07

the best wine, and I love that about

1:13:10

him. The question was because there

1:13:12

was a father-son relationship, and that's something

1:13:14

that Christians debate over to this day.

1:13:16

And I think when you start to

1:13:18

look at creation, the intentionality behind

1:13:21

everything, you see a

1:13:23

father-son relationship. And in humans,

1:13:26

that is one

1:13:28

of the biggest problems in our society is

1:13:30

a broken father-son relationship. All these problems that

1:13:32

happen. And the more

1:13:35

the show has kind of explored these ideas, the more

1:13:37

I understand that. You know, that's what I've

1:13:39

always wanted, and that's what I want to give to my sons. And

1:13:42

that's a

1:13:44

huge narrative then and now

1:13:46

that there is a family.

1:13:49

And we come back. And none of

1:13:51

us as fathers really do an adequate

1:13:53

job. We don't. It's difficult. before

1:14:00

in the pre-roll, like it became a Dad of 40, you

1:14:02

did as well. There's a whole paradigm,

1:14:04

and this is total not blurry creatures

1:14:06

talk, but there's this whole paradigm that opens up

1:14:08

where you get a glimpse of how

1:14:13

our father feels about us. And I don't think you can

1:14:15

get that unless you're a dad. When you see that and you

1:14:17

see your son, my son's two now, and

1:14:20

you just realize the lengths that you would go for him.

1:14:23

And then you go, God feels like

1:14:28

this about me, but in a way that I can't even... Well,

1:14:30

I think they gave you a word of encouragement. You're a lot younger than

1:14:32

I am. When they're teenagers, they

1:14:34

see all the faults in their

1:14:36

fatherhood. When they hit their 20s, they see

1:14:39

all the blessings of your fatherhood. So stick it

1:14:41

on the weather that day. 20s up a little

1:14:43

early. I think mine was 30. 30?

1:14:45

Well, yeah, some wait till 30, but eventually you

1:14:48

get put up on that. Oh, I have this

1:14:50

amazing story. I was changing when I just came

1:14:52

up on my Facebook memories. I was changing my

1:14:54

first born son's diaper. And I feel

1:14:57

like it was just the moment

1:14:59

that I've never... He looked at me and he

1:15:01

said, thank you. Thank you, daddy, for taking care

1:15:03

of me. And I was like, who are you?

1:15:05

How is this possible? And my second

1:15:07

kid came out as bam bam and he destroys

1:15:10

everything. So it's totally different. But

1:15:12

my first was like, I'll

1:15:14

never forget that moment. And I was like, how did

1:15:16

you even think to say that and even notice that

1:15:18

I was doing this? It's incredible.

1:15:21

That was like God's love to me in that moment

1:15:23

of just, this is insane.

1:15:26

This whole thing feels fantastical. And I love that you

1:15:28

can weave

1:15:31

science into the awe

1:15:33

and wonder of what it means to be a human and

1:15:36

how the story has been wild since

1:15:38

the beginning. And when day

1:15:41

seven gets wrapped up, it's going

1:15:43

to get even crazy and God's going to create again. Well,

1:15:45

tells us in Psalm 19 that we got

1:15:47

two books, the book of nature and the

1:15:49

book of scripture. Yeah. And actually exhorts every

1:15:51

one of us to be a scientist and

1:15:53

every one of us to be a theologian.

1:15:56

Yeah. So I tell people in our church,

1:15:58

don't leave it up to the theologians. We

1:16:00

all need to be involved. We all

1:16:02

need to be theologians. We all need

1:16:04

to be scientists. It's way too much fun and I

1:16:07

love that you just You've you

1:16:09

put them back together And that's what I think I

1:16:11

really really appreciate and love about your work You is

1:16:13

that you take these two books you talk about

1:16:15

in song but you you put them back

1:16:17

together and say these two these two Things are

1:16:20

not in conflict. They do not they

1:16:23

do not cancel each other out. They did not negate

1:16:25

each other. In fact, they affirm

1:16:27

each other these two things are

1:16:29

actually You know, they

1:16:32

are part They are the two halves

1:16:34

to the story and and

1:16:36

I know I want to give you a chance here at the end I

1:16:38

know you have a new book out to kind of talk about the new

1:16:40

book because we are an interesting time where You

1:16:42

know, we do live in interesting interesting era where

1:16:44

things are separate we live in this sort of

1:16:46

post post enlightenment paradigm where people

1:16:49

would say it's it's it's science

1:16:51

or Religion you you know and

1:16:53

you're here saying no, we're putting these back together

1:16:55

But you've written a book both and yeah, you've

1:16:57

written a book your

1:16:59

most recent book about the inerrant

1:17:02

nature of the

1:17:04

Bible and If you

1:17:06

wanted I just want to give you a chance to tell

1:17:08

her all this Well, yeah, it was a team of theologians

1:17:10

that came to me and says Hugh you need to write

1:17:12

write this book And you just write be a 23 books.

1:17:14

So I know so you say don't play golf or Or

1:17:18

fish fish, you write this right books. What a

1:17:20

legacy man. I love that well

1:17:24

These theologians are basically alerting me

1:17:26

to the fact that in seminaries

1:17:28

There's a walk away from biblical

1:17:30

inerrancy and the reason why

1:17:32

they're saying hey We can no longer

1:17:34

defend biblical inerrancy. They tested the science

1:17:36

forces it says Hugh. They're not scientists

1:17:39

You need to write a book. They're attacking you personally.

1:17:42

So you need to defend yourself So

1:17:44

I wrote this book basically making a point God

1:17:47

gave us to inerrant witnesses

1:17:50

The book of nature and the book of Scripture and I kind

1:17:52

of use a legal example You

1:17:54

know you can can get a verdict if

1:17:56

you've got two independent witnesses that corroborate one

1:17:59

another And so that's what we have.

1:18:01

The book of nature, the book of

1:18:04

scripture, they overlap, they cooperate. And

1:18:07

so I'm basically writing this book,

1:18:09

not just for theologians, but all

1:18:11

Christians, saying, hey, the latest science

1:18:13

makes a stronger case for biblical

1:18:15

inerrancy, not a weaker case. And

1:18:18

yeah, the book, it really is an errant. And

1:18:20

we know that God is speaking to us, and

1:18:22

he's speaking clearly to us. It's

1:18:25

not the Holy Spirit partnering with

1:18:27

failed human authors. The

1:18:29

Holy Spirit inspires the human authors

1:18:32

to write stuff that's totally inerrant.

1:18:34

That's awesome. I love that. I

1:18:36

mean, you're doing the Lord's work. So it's been a thank

1:18:39

you for this time. Thank you for sitting down with

1:18:41

a couple dummies and explaining the mysteries of the universe

1:18:44

in ways that we can understand. I

1:18:46

can tell you're not dummies because you're asking all the

1:18:48

right questions. I appreciate it. And we're going

1:18:50

to send you some Sasquatch material for a

1:18:53

mic, all right? And shout out to Conduit

1:18:55

Church here for having us, hosting us, and

1:18:57

their staff. And you guys have been amazing to

1:19:00

us over the years. You led us to our

1:19:02

conference here, and you guys are incredible people. You

1:19:04

brought you, Ross, in to speak. And

1:19:07

I think your message at this point, right? And

1:19:09

I just want to reiterate this one more time.

1:19:11

It's so important to, it can

1:19:15

be yes and. You don't have

1:19:17

to pick one of them. In fact, science and

1:19:20

the Bible are harmonious in

1:19:22

their relationships. The Bible says that all

1:19:24

of creation testifies to

1:19:28

God and to the greatness, to the majesty

1:19:30

of God. And I just, and

1:19:33

I think that you're doing the Lord's work.

1:19:35

So how can our listeners

1:19:37

connect with you? What's the best place to

1:19:40

find you? Well, reasons.org is our website. And

1:19:42

hey, they want free chapters of my books,

1:19:45

reasons.org/Ross. That's

1:19:47

right. I still want free books.

1:19:49

I'm just kidding. No, no. I

1:19:51

still want free books. I want free books. We do

1:19:53

give away chapters. And you

1:19:56

actually, you write what is either

1:19:58

a bi-weekly or every other week. You

1:20:00

write an article. It's called

1:20:02

Today's New Reason to Believe. They'll find

1:20:04

it at reasons.org. And

1:20:07

the blog series is called Today's. Yeah, Today,

1:20:09

so every two weeks I put out an

1:20:11

article. You're busy, man. Thank you. Hey,

1:20:14

no stopping the Ross train, right? No stopping.

1:20:18

I'm older than you, so a tiny little

1:20:20

bit. Thank you so much for coming on

1:20:22

our podcast. Thanks for helping us unpack some

1:20:24

of these complicated questions and busting our brains

1:20:26

a little bit. It's been

1:20:29

a pleasure, guys. I love it

1:20:31

when you ask the right questions. It's great. Thanks,

1:20:33

you. Yeah, it's hard. It's a little intimidating. Yeah,

1:20:35

it is. It's smarter than 10 of you. Yeah,

1:20:39

I was a little nervous, honestly. Just because I

1:20:42

mean, I'd so appreciate your work. And I remember

1:20:44

reading, I was reading your book and my

1:20:46

wife's asking me about it. And I was like,

1:20:48

I'm gonna try to explain this. Really,

1:20:50

he used to talk about all these crazy science stuff that

1:20:52

just matches with the biblical narrative. And then she's like, oh

1:20:54

cool. She's like, what about more? And I'm like, I don't

1:20:57

have any more. I can

1:20:59

read it for you, line by line. Yeah,

1:21:01

you will take care of me. And thank you

1:21:03

again for spending some time with us. Appreciate

1:21:06

it. Appreciate it. You're welcome. Thank

1:21:08

you. Thank

1:21:29

you. Thank

1:21:58

you. you