0:15

murray photos i'm your host

0:17

they flora hello or ,

0:19

i should say halo although after

0:21

this episode you might find that might

0:24

not be entirely accurate but

0:26

look at and all that and more because this

0:29

episode is all about about

0:33

there in there there in the outfield

0:36

where they come from what are they

0:38

they've really that good at the heart

0:41

well no actually those instruments

0:44

they're often depicted with aren't actually harps

0:46

they don't trust them their big liars that

0:50

iconography came from somewhere

0:52

as did a lowes wings

0:55

blond hair blue eyes etc will

0:58

be discussing the origins of angels

1:00

compared of mythology with other cultures

1:02

the hierarchy of angels and how they

1:05

evolved to the image we think

1:07

of today and of course i

1:09

won't be doing this alone in

1:11

fact i've got a devil on my shoulder to

1:13

balance these angels out it's good friend of a show

1:15

jason votes from the dragons in genesis podcast

1:18

jason welcome back to blurry photos

1:21

a day that it's good to be here thanks

1:23

for having me back on ah i

1:25

feel like i'm sort of becoming a regular now

1:27

is he who are you are are very

1:30

close to getting that green jacket oh

1:32

nice nice means

1:35

, been forever what like two episodes

1:37

or something as yes insists that has

1:40

been a very long time late

1:43

obama is so yeah

1:46

it's cause you have you always have interesting

1:48

stuff to say and things to

1:50

teach us and ah always good

1:53

to to talk to your so glad

1:55

dared to have you back with this with is something

1:57

that we probably have

1:59

touched on here they are usually

2:02

were the ones touched by an angel now

2:05

we're going to be touching him so yes yes

2:07

and other pop culture references will

2:10

, love will tell the celestial beings

2:12

to be not afraid and in fort polk

2:14

and adam that's right and

2:16

whoop will set ourselves on fire and really

2:19

spook i'm absolutely now you've

2:21

come across a fair bit of angel algae

2:23

and your journeys in fact we spoke

2:25

recently bought them in the he not episode

2:28

episode that we mainly focused on the

2:30

fallen variety would

2:32

you say there's just as much lower

2:35

about the type that didn't get all horned

2:37

up at earth women or is there more

2:39

or less either there is a ton

2:42

concerning angel saw as much

2:44

as there is about the us have fallen

2:46

angel stuff the watchers who

2:48

came down to breed with women

2:50

and creed or a so giants ah

2:53

as fascinating as areas there's

2:55

actually quite a bit more written about

2:58

those that sort of state up and heaven

3:01

ah those who you know good with

3:03

their we're told and obeyed the will of god

3:05

and did it there's it

3:08

, a bit more to him than just

3:10

like a bunch of white dude with wings

3:13

who you know some cruise around and robes

3:15

and you know the they sometimes

3:17

look a bit different from that for who he

3:20

asked quite a bit different i can't

3:22

wait to get into that not even know

3:24

what we would consider some kind of like

3:26

even an alien being it's it's kind of a stretch

3:29

really imaginative let's say yeah

3:32

ah and some of the different imagery associated

3:34

with angels ah i think would

3:36

sit more in line with hp lovecraft

3:39

then you know anything

3:41

we would consider to to be appropriate

3:43

for say the inside of a church ah

3:46

but that wasn't always the case ah use

3:49

to these strange you know

3:51

alien entities featured

3:53

very prominently inside

3:56

of near eastern temples my

3:58

sweet my sweet definitely get into that yeah

4:01

you , what they were what their

4:03

purpose was your where you

4:05

might find them and of course your

4:07

some course your biblical text her

4:10

to point out these the front door

4:12

these different beings right

4:15

i think the angel them list of our listeners

4:17

may be familiar with is ,

4:19

what's considered the christian version and

4:22

as we have been saying have been white dude

4:24

with wings super like athletic

4:27

and hot to trot but to have will

4:29

go into detail later but real

4:31

quick jason does does christianity have

4:33

the market cornered on the angel

4:35

or are there other cultures that might surprise

4:37

folks to learn have something like

4:39

this as well oh so there's

4:42

sort of like coca cola christianity

4:44

has sort of popularized the

4:47

view of angels the way that coca

4:49

cola did with santa claus out there

4:51

were certainly yeah ah a red

4:53

and white suited santa claus before

4:55

coca cola ran their big ad campaign

4:58

but they solidified that particular

5:00

image and christianity sort of did

5:02

the same thing with the angels the took something

5:05

that was already there and they sort of standardized

5:07

it and so the the idea

5:10

of a white dude

5:13

the light colored hair robes

5:15

and wings it exist

5:17

before christianity but it was

5:20

very rarely mentioned

5:23

and you have to do some digging to to

5:25

find any references and there aren't very

5:27

many the , of references

5:29

are quite different ah the

5:31

christianity they really did a good job

5:34

at standardizing it but

5:37

christianity and even judaism do

5:39

not have the market cornered on

5:41

angels ah because

5:43

it that's not where they came from they

5:46

came from zoroastrianism

5:48

hope they were no the for avast

5:50

see and ,

5:53

these were sort of these are defined spirits

5:55

and there was some

5:58

of some sort of two different rules for

6:00

these things you had

6:02

the ones that were these

6:05

, divine spirit that would inhabit

6:07

mortal bodies and basically

6:09

be people and they would

6:11

you do good works and stuff you

6:13

know here on earth and this

6:15

is basically like of souls and ,

6:17

once the people died within their

6:20

spirit could go

6:22

back into the heavens so

6:24

they were trapped not

6:26

exactly it is so like basically

6:29

like the soul of a person is

6:31

a preexisting being and

6:34

, comes to inhabit a person and

6:36

the and once you die it returns

6:39

to and

6:41

immaterial form and

6:43

so there's not much of a distinction

6:46

between an ,

6:48

and a souls it's just a

6:50

spirit and the location

6:52

kind of just varies it's it's

6:54

up in heaven or it's down on our thoughts back up

6:57

and heaven is it like com com

6:59

and bourbon like some souls are

7:02

are bourbon but all souls

7:04

or whiskey anything yes yes

7:06

that does have some of the lines or hundred

7:08

over we're talking about spirits so obviously

7:11

and all that so that that that

7:16

yeah so nice they they

7:18

kind of become diluted when they come down to

7:20

earth but then there distilled again to

7:22

go back to heaven so i'm

7:24

gets that's the angels com yeah angels

7:27

so out on

7:30

a so yeah that that's and that's sort of like

7:32

one role of the for avast see but

7:34

there was another and that was these

7:36

even greater beings that

7:39

served as sort of far councillors

7:41

to a whore a mazda and

7:44

what they were originally we're

7:46

other gods in the pantheon and

7:50

at a a certain point in their theology

7:53

as he drifted toward monotheism the

7:55

and these gods they were changed

7:57

from you know lesser god

7:59

two angels age basically

8:02

just mean they were renamed on

8:04

cars up know there's really no difference

8:07

between a greater angel

8:09

and a lesser god sister

8:12

a powerful divine spirit that

8:14

a subservient to the main deity and

8:17

so you have these have

8:20

these greater for of our see

8:23

that serves and they are

8:26

you're an advisory role and

8:28

of course are given other duties as well

8:30

and , see both kinds

8:32

appear in judaism and christianity

8:35

the they just have different names of course

8:37

ah but but the idea that our

8:40

spirits that were created

8:43

heaven and and habits human bodies

8:46

are basically are souls that

8:49

upon death a sand

8:51

back into heaven to become angels

8:54

that existed in some form of judaism

8:56

and ah early christianity

8:59

and it wasn't until later that christianity separated

9:02

the idea of a soul and an angel

9:05

ah so that so that

9:07

from zorastrianism certainly stuck around

9:10

as says mutated since then and

9:12

the idea of these greater spirits

9:15

are better you'll sir various

9:17

roles up in heaven that also

9:20

transferred over into judaism and christianity

9:23

ha i got i got two things

9:25

for your arms one can use

9:27

spell for avast he for

9:29

me ah f r a v

9:32

h s h i for

9:34

vasey okay ah , to

9:36

i said angels card it's angels share

9:39

it's the devils cut that goes into

9:41

the word of the big big or shares

9:44

the what evaporate yes yeah i think

9:46

you know you know what it means that yeah

9:48

just died and want to be right

9:50

about a bourbon talk this out

9:52

there i mean in mean lot of

9:55

er mei completely butcher zoroastrian

9:58

theology but if you i

10:00

get alcohol terminology zone

10:02

you will get called out hurry

10:05

the most common for you don't

10:07

, my kentucky card yeah and so

10:10

zoroastrianism ah the

10:12

first kind of origins of what we

10:14

got here and and you said they were kind

10:17

of the at advisors in

10:19

away or of what what all was the

10:21

the purposes of these thing as

10:23

some a film definitely served as advisers

10:26

are they govern certain parts of the universe

10:28

the oversaw different theme stuff like

10:30

that basically the role that they had

10:33

whenever they were considered gods gods

10:36

pretty much kept those rolls when they were recast

10:39

as angels that's funny

10:41

and will get into the hierarchy and in a little

10:43

bit because it sounds like that does

10:45

derived exactly from bath yeah

10:47

yeah zoroastrianism

10:49

really liked their

10:51

theology to be very orderly dot

10:54

, a core part of their theology things needed

10:56

to be organized a certain way and

10:59

anything that disrupted that order was

11:02

considered like impure and

11:04

came from arm are among

11:07

the a poser and

11:09

of that definitely translator over

11:11

into judaism and later christianity

11:13

they just took a step further and said oh

11:15

hang on we want to make sure we

11:17

pinned down the exact

11:19

hierarchy of these things were going

11:21

to organize them like a military and

11:24

the things have specific of ranks

11:26

yeah i'm so yeah that that

11:28

definitely as part of the of the angelic

11:30

evolution now how

11:32

was this type of being perceived

11:35

in early christian theology

11:37

ah so you could sort

11:39

of break it up into two different groups

11:41

you have the i guess you could

11:43

call person or angels and

11:46

isn't or thing that concerns or us front of some sort

11:48

of like a guardian angels this would be an angel

11:50

that would ah that would look over you

11:52

okay they did watch over you they would protect you

11:54

from the interference of demons and

11:56

things like that and they could even help your

11:59

daily life on and

12:01

then you also had the angels

12:03

that were it's

12:07

i guess a bit more powerful and is be

12:09

more like those the

12:12

ah those for of our she that used

12:14

to be deities and were recast

12:16

so an example of that would be like

12:19

michael the archangel your he's not

12:21

a person or being you know his job

12:23

isn't to watch over you you know him

12:25

when heavenly forces to control

12:27

okay i'm and

12:29

so that they sort of saw these angels us

12:32

loosely divided into four

12:34

of those two categories you had

12:36

the ones that would interact with you

12:38

directly ah , were sort

12:40

of like messengers and that's actually what the

12:43

the name angel means means

12:45

then you had the ones that have

12:48

they had much bigger roles to play

12:51

but they were pretty much all seen as being good

12:53

ya in in early christianity

12:56

in read that they were like

12:58

god but fallible right

13:01

so they they weren't perfect but

13:03

they were probably the closest thing you can get

13:05

without being perfect so

13:07

it's your understanding is yeah and

13:09

it it it kind of varies depending on the writing

13:12

in some of the things as they are

13:15

quite sellable in some cases

13:17

and you you can have to watch what you do around

13:19

and because they can screw up and another things

13:22

they're almost like robots and they don't

13:24

have much of a mind of their own on

13:26

and it kind of shows the at d c algae

13:30

was , varied in the

13:32

early days of christianity up

13:35

in one of the letters i believe in corinthians

13:37

paul actually rights that your

13:40

women have to cover their heads

13:42

whenever there and church because

13:45

the old the the old they

13:47

might be tempted to submit

13:49

the fan of the watchers again and then you could

13:51

end up with a whole nother race of giants

13:54

and so in temples feel i'm

13:57

york's that the surfaces would basically

13:59

the presence of feel of ya

14:02

away or of these angels you know

14:04

that that was the whole purpose of worship was

14:06

to get closer to the divine and

14:08

if you did this and you you had

14:10

one of these divine creatures in your midst

14:14

and you know your

14:16

sister was too attractive for

14:19

, there's a problem and and so was

14:21

like look women you you need to cover

14:23

your heads you know so that the angels

14:25

don't see you yeah they they

14:28

all of them have hair kings oh

14:30

yeah absolutely absolutely

14:32

young over fist that

14:35

so they could set of says him for a similar

14:38

things they they were they they quite suman

14:40

arms i've ever met anybody

14:43

that's gotta hear fed hear some sure they're out there

14:45

last summer and same i'm but somebody

14:48

dies actor who that

14:50

ponytail of now it's

14:52

actually that that ponytail think that's more for thing with

14:54

women back when i used to have hair

14:57

i said like long like shoulder length hair and

14:59

women were always like going to run their fingers

15:01

through my hair strands sit there and like women

15:03

like putting me like a dog and i'm just like who

15:06

are just awesome on

15:09

but i've never didn't like as like

15:11

as go and like play with this girl's head you

15:14

know that i don't know i

15:16

know it's your book a mate maybe

15:18

there is some female angels new i i

15:20

don't know yeah yeah

15:23

but the dude didn't have to cover their they did they

15:25

actually had to grow more didn't yes

15:27

yes no prob air from

15:30

get to get their beard out there now

15:32

but sign away early angels were were quite

15:34

suman on some of them had

15:36

beards some of them were bald we

15:39

, depiction saw your from like

15:41

the third fourth saw early says

15:43

century c e that

15:45

show angels you know like this

15:48

from some pretty famous scenes in the bible bible

15:51

yet it will be some that are like all are they

15:53

have beards are suffer the the bespoke i mean

15:56

yeah forecasters you i brought guess

15:58

is that those things as we're we're

16:01

quite human and others

16:03

marv they're basically just had just had

16:06

they show up they deliver a message and

16:08

no vamos so yeah

16:11

did any a counts

16:13

of angels differ or dispute

16:16

other accounts or or have they been

16:19

part of every second call that

16:21

espoused some form of christianity

16:25

i just kind a pencil what you mean by like

16:28

sort of refute of the there

16:30

was definitely have varied beliefs

16:33

and what the angels d it but

16:35

i'm not sure how much ah

16:37

that the different sects argued about

16:39

these things are we do

16:41

have letters that talk about like

16:44

different arguments that different groups

16:46

, christians had with one another of

16:50

but mostly the thing that they're arguing

16:52

about is whether or not people

16:54

needed to become choose before they

16:56

became christians that that

16:59

oh that's almost all they argue about it

17:01

you'll suffer for about the first two centuries

17:03

on your it's matters concerning

17:05

kosher food and for skyn apart

17:08

from that you , home

17:10

at the title of your autopilot should

17:13

famous oh yeah

17:15

that like that the letters of

17:18

concern disputes between peter and paul

17:20

that's all they argue about are those two just

17:23

sat around yelling at each other about

17:25

those two things and that that's pretty

17:27

much it i mean it it makes sense cause you

17:29

know it's it's derives from and

17:31

we the old testament is do isn't enough

17:33

is so he he would make sense that somebody

17:35

who is like well if this is part

17:38

of our teachings do we

17:40

need to to these

17:42

teachings and then kind

17:44

of morph into the new teachings

17:46

from there you know like i i

17:48

can see where that are argument comes from yeah

17:51

and that that was that was a huge argument

17:53

for a couple of centuries a later

17:55

on a fourth fifth

17:57

even i think that the sixth century you did have

17:59

the [unk] the audience who were trying to argue

18:02

like what angels are

18:04

ah , some were saying

18:06

oval jesus was an angel and some were saying

18:09

no he absolutely was not out

18:12

your like some were saying that your

18:14

way was an angel and some were saying that's blasphemy

18:17

as the sort of thing can went back and forth

18:20

as they were trying to define what is an

18:22

angel what is this the divine being what's

18:24

the god and oh

18:27

if if you came down on the wrong side of one

18:29

of these arguments your like as if you lost

18:31

and the a council of bishops

18:33

voted against u z and

18:36

you either have to you

18:38

know toss out your old beliefs and

18:40

swear that you believed as they did

18:42

or you know head off to another

18:44

country to avoid execution

18:47

so if he was eager

18:49

, a heated ya there are there some pretty big

18:51

arguments concerning things like that and

18:54

eventually what they came to decide

18:57

upon is that angels are angels lesser

18:59

divine beings that are

19:01

subservient to god and

19:04

they are not to be worshiped that is

19:06

the they got a hard line on that

19:08

you do not worship an angel manned

19:11

i'm basically what they do a good

19:13

angel just obeys god and

19:15

that's it they they don't go off and do

19:17

anything on their own you know they

19:20

they do god's will and they deliver

19:22

gods messages and they watch over people

19:25

and , also watch over the universe meal

19:27

if if that happens to be the role of that particular

19:29

angel road which will get into

19:31

and one more thing about

19:33

their origins to set us up

19:36

so we can talk more without getting too

19:38

much into the hierarchy what are the of physical

19:40

descriptions of angels

19:43

and what are their capabilities

19:45

okay so physical

19:47

descriptions and the

19:49

challenges to to nice to

19:52

just come out and and lists the higher

19:54

are see okay

19:56

so let's see and there's

19:58

actually i sound of five

20:00

different hierarchies of angels or

20:02

christianity is pretty much settled on

20:04

one i think judaism has

20:08

the green

20:09

depending on which source you're looking

20:12

at and

20:14

i think the by he religion has

20:17

a cyst one so we

20:19

we we've we've got some variety here

20:21

most people would be i'm more

20:23

familiar with the the christian version

20:27

i think since we've cracked the shell i we

20:29

should we should get into it and

20:32

, and i think it makes sense to cause the

20:35

rest of the stuff would

20:37

benefit from these descriptions

20:39

dislike that dislike don't think

20:41

it's possible to talk about what think what

20:43

these things looked like without getting into the hierarchy

20:45

really but before we get into

20:47

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with me so

22:37

i think this is a part of angel

22:39

lord that i think it's either often

22:42

misunderstood are often not

22:44

discussed i least these days

22:47

and full disclosure that statement

22:49

i just said may be based a lot on my

22:51

own understanding and experience with

22:53

regard to religion i learned a

22:55

great deal more about insole hierarchy

22:58

from topics discussed on the show that

23:00

i didn't sunday school so

23:02

it jason if you want to give

23:04

us just a real quick overview

23:08

of , hierarchy and you

23:10

can have mentioned how they you know took

23:12

took the idea of the organization

23:15

from zoroastrianism zoroastrianism

23:17

you want to give us real us overview

23:19

i can they go through each level

23:22

of employment here and give you a short

23:24

job descriptions and then we can expound

23:26

on them or and will start at the bottom

23:29

of once you're once you give us like an idea

23:31

what this hierarchy is is like

23:34

okay so the

23:36

the christian hierarchy of angels

23:39

is divided into nine choirs

23:42

okay so you've got nine levels and

23:44

each of and other than

23:46

i inquires of angels or does they

23:49

are subdivided into three spheres

23:53

or as it's other whereas you have three

23:55

spheres and that's each one is subdivided

23:57

to three other groups but averse nine

23:59

levels to

23:59

ah three groups of three

24:02

the first sphere this sphere this sphere

24:05

closest to

24:07

god okay this like the throne

24:09

room with heaven you have

24:11

the serafin who serves god

24:13

are they support his throne and they basically just

24:15

fly around chanting holy holy holy

24:18

as the lord almighty for all of eternity

24:20

and , might come down and you know smite

24:23

you if you do the wrong thing so

24:25

that that's thought the sarah from below

24:27

that is the chair of i'm sometimes

24:29

called the living creatures

24:31

that stop the second rank rank

24:34

the the first sphere and the

24:36

end of the bottom of that sphere is

24:38

the often him of called the thrones

24:42

and then

24:44

the second sphere so

24:46

, these are angels for five and six

24:49

ah you have the dominions

24:51

or the domination it's it's

24:53

virtues and the powers

24:56

the third sphere

24:59

you have the principalities the archangels

25:02

and the angels and the

25:04

angels at the bottom of sort of the subdivided

25:07

into i like messengers

25:10

and guardian angels so

25:12

those are your nine ranks of

25:15

angels according to the

25:17

christian hierarchy so

25:20

starting with the lowest one the lowest

25:22

choir of these ah these beings

25:24

angels like you said deal

25:27

with humanity the most and this is where

25:29

a guardian angels come from so like you said

25:31

they're they're kind of split some or guardian

25:34

angel types the others are are

25:36

messengers these are the ones that i'm

25:38

show up and and deliver god's

25:40

messages right yes yes

25:43

and while so asterism never

25:45

has angels delivering messages

25:48

they certainly have the guardian angels

25:50

that that's where that idea comes from an

25:53

angel that is personally assigned to

25:55

watch over you a that

25:57

absolutely comes from zoroastrianism

26:00

and so i think matthew

26:02

eighteen ten tells us about

26:04

angels like a personal angel that

26:06

represents you and haven't seen how

26:08

to plead your case europe to try to get

26:11

you off on a lighter sentence if you haven't been

26:13

the best person and we know from acts

26:15

twelve that your guardian angel

26:18

is supposed to look just like you and

26:20

there's a scene where peters locked up

26:22

in prison and you his friends are in

26:24

this house and they're praying for his release

26:27

so he doesn't get executed well an angel

26:29

both of their and breaks him out

26:32

and so peter goes to this house

26:34

for his friends aren't he knocks on the door and

26:36

as and servant see opens the door and

26:38

she sees peter standing there so she

26:41

goes and seats he tells his friends hey you'll

26:43

never guess but pete is at the door

26:45

and they never consider

26:48

the possibility that their prayers and would have worked

26:50

and the like oh no that couldn't be peter it must

26:52

be his guardian angel while

26:55

and then peter walks in the like oh my god

26:57

he was actually released oh

26:59

it's actually kind of a funny scene but

27:01

ah sweet we know from their belief

27:04

that that early christians believed

27:06

that your guardian angel would look identical

27:08

to you because they say see

27:11

one and a think it's the other yeah ,

27:13

that's a acts twelve thirteen to

27:15

sixteen or we find that seen now

27:17

i've got a couple of questions that you

27:20

may not be able to answer just because

27:24

it may not

27:25

they may not have any basis

27:28

your calories number one is

27:31

everybody assigned a

27:33

guardian angel yes

27:36

it every every single person or single

27:38

person they get their own guardian angel

27:40

that looks just like you though usually they're like

27:43

invisible and they're they're gonna follow you around

27:45

and ah they're gonna

27:47

make you look both ways before

27:49

you step off the curb sophia you're

27:51

like oh yeah i'm going to do the stain out

27:54

oh wait oh wait to check this and then

27:56

that prevents you from getting killed that

27:58

was your guardian angel that

28:00

you know reminded you turn turn

28:03

turn the oven off before you left the house

28:05

or to look elsewhere is elsewhere for you know

28:07

walked into the street ah

28:09

so that that's what that's is on everybody

28:12

gets one then maybe

28:14

it probably a dumb question but the

28:17

people who are angels

28:20

did they have their own guardian angel

28:23

oh so okay guess so one

28:25

one part of their theology at least

28:27

for a while was that your soul

28:29

with your your spirit ah

28:33

would basically become an angel whenever you

28:35

died in that this is part of the whole

28:38

the messianic view of sort

28:41

, rebirth and resurrection

28:44

it was all tied in with that and

28:47

it's not ever actually made

28:50

clear if

28:52

your

28:53

the soul that lives inside you

28:55

that a sins into heaven and becomes an angel

28:58

if that in any way

29:00

connected to the guardian angels that

29:02

is assigned to you mom

29:04

so it's like two halves of the whole

29:07

it may be that you kind

29:09

of merge together yeah yeah or

29:12

it may be that once

29:14

, know your spirit is

29:16

free and flies up into heaven your

29:19

guardian angel now doesn't have a job so

29:21

it goes up to i don't know play

29:23

pacino or something i don't know ah

29:26

the i haven't found any seemed

29:28

as actually addressed that specific

29:30

question and it seems like an obvious one

29:33

one as i'm thinking that it's part

29:35

of the theology that sort of was

29:38

forgotten yahoo was sort of le mind

29:41

and people just kind of

29:43

assumed that you know he didn't

29:45

really matter especially because later

29:47

on they had the idea that your soul was

29:49

not an angel coat

29:52

consoles and angel sort of separated

29:55

and down for once that

29:57

came about then there's

29:59

no doubt , question

30:02

becomes a moot point you know you don't need

30:05

to answer the question because it's question because

30:07

longer a question ah you don't have

30:09

to angels you have a soul and

30:11

an angel they're completely separate so

30:13

ah see i haven't found anything that addresses

30:15

that particular thing but it would be

30:18

from like the first century a

30:20

d or earlier if you

30:22

were to find it

30:24

what do you think do

30:27

some real heavy stuff for

30:29

noone wants

30:32

what what the point

30:35

the angels coming

30:38

down and inhabiting bodies

30:40

or just souls

30:43

inhabiting bodies if

30:45

it's just like a real recycled

30:47

kind of saying if they're going up coming back

30:49

down go it up come back down what's the point

30:52

of so this this the thing that again

30:54

come since or astronauts and and

30:56

intrinsically linked the lives of

30:58

humans and our moral

31:00

decisions with this great

31:03

cosmic battle between good and evil

31:05

though before zorastrianism came

31:07

along the gods didn't really care

31:09

what people see it as long as you

31:12

didn't mess with their priests and

31:14

their temples since you were pretty much

31:16

five you know that ,

31:18

would get petty if you fail to make a sacrifice

31:21

kneel before of voyage are some senate and they

31:23

may smite you you

31:25

looking at you odysseus ah and

31:27

ah you have things like

31:29

that things like your

31:31

you you look at these like greets heroes and they're always

31:33

run around doing horrible things are stealing

31:36

their bullying people in there killing people

31:38

and there constant care as

31:40

long as it isn't something that's directed at

31:43

the gods themselves for their representatives

31:46

yeah but for zoroastrianism came along

31:49

all of that changed every

31:51

act every word every thought

31:54

was you know we'd

31:56

in the balance it all contributed

31:59

to this it'll between good and evil

32:02

and out the spirit that

32:04

came from heaven and ah

32:06

was basically was soldier on earth

32:09

to help fighting this battle your

32:12

arm that that intrinsically

32:14

links you with the theology

32:16

and the old that of course

32:19

carries over into later judaism

32:22

especially the the messianic branches

32:24

of it and dnr christianity

32:27

and that that's that's really what it's about it's

32:29

about giving you a a

32:32

solid lead to ,

32:34

d a t and to the theology

32:37

so your your actions your

32:39

words everything you do everything you

32:41

say everything you think is

32:43

part of this and it's your

32:46

your soul your spirit your angels

32:49

that form sicily in the chain

32:51

between heaven and earth the

32:53

i think that is like probably

32:55

the primary reason why it's like

32:57

this what we're all soldiers

33:00

in this this cosmic battle and

33:02

just need some kind of just

33:05

nieto of physical form to

33:07

combat the immaterial

33:10

battle for good and evil the

33:12

interesting about ,

33:15

much much can like the these are people

33:17

oh yahoo over from a

33:19

pace has a cool place and they're trying

33:21

to explain seems like nature

33:24

and the trying to explain evil in the

33:26

world yells suffering disaster

33:28

things like that and this is what

33:30

they came up with was at ya

33:33

the the universe is inherently good

33:36

bye there is corruption

33:38

that's mess and everything up and they need

33:41

to do good to sort

33:43

of fight against that and in a way new

33:45

whether you are religious or not that

33:48

you know that's sort of the case

33:51

if you don't do good things

33:53

the universe like your your planet

33:55

your society in your neighborhood

33:58

will just you know they'll

34:00

get bad so you you have to do

34:02

good things are awesome and

34:05

i think that's like at the heart

34:07

of it ah yeah has a lot of these

34:09

things he if you've actually read the scriptures

34:11

that these things are coming from they're trying to

34:14

make a a better society

34:17

or even if their methods happened to be atrocious

34:19

the goal is clear they're trying to make their

34:22

little corner of the world better

34:24

it's all i think that's that's the heart

34:26

of this i

34:29

it's a better answer than just that's

34:31

the plan yes

34:34

but anyways i've anyways i've diverted us from

34:36

their hierarchies your little bit let's keep going on

34:38

that in the yeah it's still

34:40

in those the lowest a sphere

34:42

we got archangels next that's the

34:45

second most choir and

34:47

archangels are in charge of carrying out important

34:49

orders for humanity in

34:52

some accounts now and i didn't

34:54

have defer to you on this capital

34:56

a archangels are the

34:58

seven named angels and are

35:01

above all the other choirs

35:04

and and other accounts no

35:06

seven fall into this category

35:08

the small a archangels

35:11

the seven named angels being michael

35:13

gabriel rafael uriel rog

35:15

gail remy l and surreal

35:18

those last three men they've they they had

35:20

a a real punk band a

35:23

vibe to their ,

35:25

underground yeah anyways anyways

35:27

so tell us a little bit about the the archangels

35:29

and where you fall on the capital a and

35:32

the lower case a version yeah so

35:34

that that's another one of these little a points of

35:36

contention when it comes to angel

35:38

to and also how

35:40

many there are a the the list you

35:42

gave of the the seven that comes from

35:45

first enoch chapter twenty mm

35:48

but there's another list and

35:50

first the not chapter forty that says

35:52

there are only for michael

35:54

raphael gabriel and the

35:56

annual pass which isn't in the first

35:59

yeah etiquette leo mit your

36:01

real who was a prominent figure

36:03

throughout the book of enoch oh yeah

36:05

is a fairly well as one of the isn't he wanted

36:07

the warriors three first the work and

36:11

, account just to jump in real quick another

36:13

counts as that michael is the only

36:15

one the only archangel i've read

36:17

that somewhere to so i mean there's there's

36:19

tons of different accounts on nobody

36:21

could make up their mind who this all star team was

36:24

right so was right we're looking

36:26

at multiple traditions and if

36:28

he's if you try to go to the bible

36:30

to figure it out this

36:33

is about archangels so he the

36:35

word literally means above angels

36:37

okay so make sense that this is it

36:40

if angels are like category number

36:42

nine archangel would be category

36:44

number eight the by the first

36:46

class right of course

36:48

it could also mean is this is like

36:50

above category number one at

36:53

all of the angels are beneath them and

36:55

some have even tried to ah i

36:58

guess harmonize these two different beliefs and say

37:00

that we have some different archangels

37:03

the and a michael there's

37:06

a separate type of archangel

37:08

who was above all of them and

37:10

he is second only to god and

37:12

so we have we have

37:15

of different beliefs going on here know

37:17

if you go to look at the new

37:19

testament gabriel this

37:22

called an angel it doesn't

37:24

say he's an archangel he just says mean

37:26

angel gabriel now i'm in

37:28

other sources it does say he's an

37:30

archangel however

37:32

in the new testament the only one it ever

37:34

claims is an archangel is michael

37:37

it never gives that title to anyone

37:39

else is not saying that they art he

37:41

just never says that any of from

37:43

are you know said it is it

37:45

fails to mention any other such as says

37:48

he old michael is an archangel

37:51

he's listed as the protector of israel

37:53

he sort of a are a patron

37:56

saint of israel and

37:58

he's like the enemy of satan we find your center

38:00

i believe chewed chapter

38:03

one verse nine ers is

38:05

where you going to find that and in that

38:07

that's a weird scene because of it

38:09

talks about michael and satan

38:12

fighting over the body of moses which

38:14

is nowhere in the old testament a

38:17

it comes from an apocryphal book called the testament

38:19

of moses for the where that seen as found

38:21

but the or that the early christians

38:23

they definitely regarded michael as an archangel

38:27

what exactly that meant we don't know

38:29

because it's whole hierarchy comes from you know centuries

38:32

later its medieval period so so

38:34

the term archangel came first and

38:36

then the iraqi of them being above regular

38:39

angels came of li right right so we we

38:41

the a week we have the archangel and it's like

38:43

these are angels that are more important than

38:46

your regular like guardian angels

38:48

and messengers but

38:51

or we can tell they didn't have this huge

38:54

established hierarchy yet we

38:57

just know that there were like angels at the bottom and there were

38:59

archangels that were somewhere above i'm that's

39:01

it the big list where it's

39:03

like you know we have like nine

39:06

different ranks of angels we

39:08

don't get that into centuries later ah

39:11

so how exactly the early christians imagined

39:13

this we don't know it

39:16

may have just been as simple as

39:19

their angels who deliver messages

39:21

occasionally in pregnant women sans serif

39:24

to protect you from demons and

39:26

the in there are archangels

39:28

who do really big important things and they have

39:30

names and that's

39:33

it there may have literally only been

39:35

two types of angels of in

39:37

their early theology and i'm

39:40

like regular angels would

39:42

just go about like your be regular

39:44

intervals who did things like a movie stars

39:47

around a guide the reverse

39:49

bring up the wind and stuff like that

39:52

first the not tells us about that about that

39:55

the open up the gates in the firmament they

39:57

bring out frost and rain and stuff like

39:59

that and it never says that these are special

40:01

in any way it is cause i'm angels so

40:03

there may have only been to regular and from

40:06

archangels and in leader

40:08

they they took all these other beings like

40:10

the sarah from and stuff like that and they incorporated

40:13

don't miss angels the

40:15

kind of a tidy up the theology

40:17

because they didn't want there to be all these other beings running

40:19

around that weren't categorized ah

40:22

so they they described them as being other

40:24

ranks of angels and because there were

40:26

fewer of them ah and they're often

40:28

associated with the throne room with heaven

40:31

they were given a higher ranked but

40:33

we we exactly know because

40:36

they didn't

40:37

the reason why they did these things

40:40

they just kind of said this is how it is yeah

40:43

which which is interesting and but also kind

40:45

of from simpler yeah

40:48

thin , than dennis dusts

40:51

dusts hierarchy the came later and

40:53

one up from archangels the highest

40:56

of the low the ah

40:58

we have principalities and principalities

41:01

shockingly oversee kingdoms states

41:04

and paris's part and parcel what

41:06

the name i suppose they can deliver

41:08

blessings and are sometimes credited with inspiring

41:11

breakthroughs sometimes art and science

41:14

what do you know but these guys so i'm

41:17

we get a pretty clear reference

41:19

to this idea that ah

41:21

divine beings influence

41:24

the rulers of nations

41:26

a few times in the bible one of the most clears

41:29

and dude or on me thirty two eight were

41:32

of that the high god l l yards

41:35

he divides the world of into

41:37

different nations and he appoints

41:39

a celestial beings to

41:42

rule over each nation and

41:44

they and they guide their kings

41:46

and the angel yeah way

41:49

is the one appointed over israel his

41:51

favorite nice

41:52

this particular passage

41:55

has been heavily modified over

41:57

the centuries for obvious reasons

41:59

don't wanna mention ll yawning

42:02

galway as being separate deities anymore

42:04

they they liked her to combine those two

42:07

and dumb they don't like

42:09

film being called are like are son

42:12

of god they god they they didn't like

42:14

that either so of

42:16

those things of sort of been the

42:19

basically your reach

42:21

translated that so

42:23

much that it's that it's

42:25

the passage of unrecognizable but

42:28

, are older version says it's quite clear

42:30

the got l oh yeah he's dividing the world

42:33

up among his different sons and the nation

42:35

of israel is given to his favorite son

42:37

yeah way and we have other places

42:39

that mention your way as

42:42

like the patron angel of israel

42:44

and so ah that this idea this

42:46

that the is that of

42:48

every nation are either an

42:50

earthly incarnation of

42:53

a divine being or

42:55

they were being directly influenced

42:57

by a divine being and this goes

42:59

back thousands of years the

43:02

the king of babylon was an earthly incarnation

43:04

of marduk you'll see that this is

43:07

this is not anything new too young

43:10

, judaism discos back as far as we

43:12

have written records and there's

43:14

hints of it even further i

43:17

mean how better to get authority

43:19

over nation than to claim the your god

43:21

you know that's still that

43:23

that that's a powerful tool sure and

43:25

it the seems to be that this idea

43:28

is ubiquitous you find it in

43:30

south america you find it northern europe

43:32

you you basically find that everywhere like

43:35

native american tribes often their

43:37

often their was connected

43:40

to some sort of spirit you know

43:43

ah that helped home to govern

43:45

wisely and things like that it's

43:48

as a pretty typical i'm

43:50

thing to come up with in human nature

43:52

though the movie a horrible person around

43:55

claims a divine authority of some type

43:57

yeah at north korea years and has it

43:59

the either they are ruled by

44:02

a man who's been dead for decades ya

44:04

know each notes rulers basically

44:06

on your part of this eternal

44:08

ruler of is like kim

44:10

jong hoon grandfather whose

44:13

listen like the eternal ruler of north

44:15

korea these almost of

44:17

worship like a deity ah

44:19

, it did this is not a

44:21

strange believe that all it's it's pretty

44:24

common and that that's what these angels were supposed

44:26

to be these are the ones that are assigned

44:29

to basically sit on the shoulder of the king

44:31

and whisper in his ear and tell them how to rule this nation

44:34

nation when two nations go to war it's because

44:37

the these two different deities of these two angels

44:39

are now are you know

44:41

i'm here we we we have depictions of

44:43

this in the bible where are ya

44:45

away and margin basically get in a fight

44:48

and this is to represent the the struggle

44:50

between israel struggle babylon so

44:53

yeah it's it's so basically

44:56

these of food political angels yards

45:00

moving on to bed to the second sphere the

45:02

lowest of the middle choirs our

45:04

powers and ,

45:07

are warriors who maintain

45:09

cosmic balance by fighting demons

45:11

yes i'm so you

45:13

have this this other belief that also

45:16

pretty much ubiquitous that

45:18

spirits can inhabit human bodies

45:21

in some cultures that's a good thing thing

45:24

a person who has something like something

45:27

or tourette's or something like that is seen

45:29

as like a holy person because they're being touched by

45:31

spirits usually associated with their

45:33

ancestors but in

45:35

christianity that's not a good thing if the

45:37

spirit comes into your body is pretty

45:39

much gonna be classified gonna evil because

45:42

their whole evolution of the idea of demons

45:45

and so if you eat

45:47

you basically you don't want something to

45:50

hop into you answer poland spring

45:52

like a puppet master right that that's a bad

45:54

thing you know oh so

45:57

he can cause you to do all sorts of things

45:59

like cover your boss or

46:01

something amiss , what i blame

46:03

when i do it so so a huge you

46:05

want something there to prevent

46:07

that prevent if

46:10

you are as o c d s some

46:12

of the early christians seem to be when you're trying

46:14

to make this hierarchy of angels hierarchy

46:16

you you like the number three but

46:19

there are too many see make three groups of

46:21

three units that are still

46:23

some slots originally

46:26

your angel is this

46:28

your guardian angel prevented

46:31

demons from getting inside

46:33

i think they literally took that from

46:35

your guardian angel and gave it to

46:37

the powers as , needed

46:40

to fill slots okay so

46:43

the slot and on

46:45

the dominion's of basically

46:49

this place holder so that they can have

46:52

a total of nine ranks as

46:54

a like three groups of three because

46:56

other than the on combating demons

46:58

to prevent human possessions they don't do anything

47:01

else like the damn they just

47:03

do something the your guardian angel already

47:05

does that that that's

47:07

it right

47:09

smack dab in the middle management we

47:12

got virtues which are tasked

47:14

with controlling elemental forces

47:17

also planetary movement and nature

47:19

and there sometimes referred to as the shining

47:21

ones the sounds a lot like what you were

47:23

talking about with some who controls

47:25

you know opening the firmament and who

47:28

controls the path that the direction

47:30

of a river and planetary stuff

47:32

yeah the astronomy book and he not is

47:34

full of this they carefully layout

47:37

ah what's the world is like and have this

47:39

big disk that held up by stone pillars

47:42

and a gate opens

47:44

up in the eastern sky and the firmament

47:47

and i'm an angel

47:49

carries the sun into

47:51

the farm moments of into our atmosphere and

47:54

in tears it over new above

47:56

our heads you know a just inside the from

47:58

it in a be

48:00

art over the

48:02

the world and then it comes down

48:05

the western sky the ,

48:07

opened the gate and ushered the sun through

48:10

and then brings it down below the level of

48:12

the horizon to circle around

48:14

the northern poll they

48:17

get back around to the the

48:19

the eastern sky so it can do

48:21

the same thing the following day and the

48:23

in the the stars all do

48:25

the same thing they have gates all over

48:27

the sky ah open up

48:29

to let rain come through frosts

48:32

know different wins plague

48:35

of locusts dust you

48:37

name it on the

48:39

the boundaries of the oceans are

48:42

literally like written in a

48:44

sort of i'm a divine code

48:47

and angels make sure that the ocean doesn't

48:49

overflow it's bounds because

48:51

if an angel slacking that's how

48:53

you get things like floods and tsunami

48:55

it's okay so

48:57

the that the ain't these angels these angels the

49:00

it is their job to

49:03

you know move all of

49:05

creation around if if

49:07

, universe was a giant clockwork

49:10

clockwork virtues or all the little springs

49:12

and cogs that make it work since

49:15

yell so they're they're in charge

49:17

of doing all these things i'm

49:19

basically this is how you describe the universe

49:22

functioning when you don't know about

49:24

things like gravitational pull

49:26

and inertia ah

49:29

and so did your that the water

49:31

cycle it's because of the virtues

49:33

that you know they're that you who evaporate

49:36

water and carry it up into the sky and then

49:38

let it rain back down on your crops

49:41

do you don't wait wait of the names for these

49:43

come from they're they're kind

49:46

of wildly different especially when we

49:48

get into the next sphere are

49:50

like principalities powers virtues

49:52

coming up we got dominion's where

49:54

where do we get those names

49:57

for this hierarchy that is one

49:59

of the things did not look into ah

50:02

i'm pretty sure it came

50:04

from christians in the medieval

50:06

period who were just trying to arrange everything

50:08

he i wanted to make it as orderly as these

50:10

angels do oh but

50:13

i'm not positive arm

50:15

yeah it sounds latin

50:20

the , in this sub than that kind

50:22

of really smacks of a a

50:25

monks or bishops trying to come up with

50:27

something that is like is a

50:29

good description but also

50:31

fits what they do and yeah carry

50:34

some weight to it as well get in

50:36

a lot of these people and like that that

50:38

would make sense because lot of these people lot of these monks

50:40

and stuff and theologians they basically

50:42

just kind of just around in

50:45

around convent somewhere

50:47

and they read boats and they wrote

50:49

stuff just like

50:52

some the things that come out of the the

50:54

medieval period some of the theology

50:57

like we honestly have no idea where some

50:59

of it came from a person just wrote

51:01

it and people like i'll walk out at how it is him

51:04

as like the phrase it you get this idea

51:06

and no one else ah

51:09

so it very well could

51:11

have originated with some guy who was just

51:14

awkward because ,

51:16

that that was literally a think you're

51:18

you had people whose job it was to just copy

51:21

the bible and when you take a

51:23

break from that that knows

51:25

that could do to your to oh

51:27

yeah and like as i don't really need

51:29

to make light of it but with a boredom

51:32

of a person whose life is devoted

51:34

to just studying these

51:36

things and reading these things and making copies

51:39

of these things you know

51:41

that these things a very boring and

51:43

tedious life and

51:46

sometimes the just kind of card

51:48

to make sense of things and just made stuff up

51:51

sort of the way eric fund and again tried to make

51:53

sense of the bible and history

51:55

not messing up so he does inserted

51:57

aliens and made it is not match

51:59

up with it and therefore and

52:01

inaki right exactly

52:04

ah so like so like know i

52:06

don't know exactly you

52:08

know who came up with all of these different

52:11

things are i look more into

52:13

like the physiological origins

52:15

from like the these different

52:17

text bro and not the later arrangement

52:19

but yeah it is definitely reeks

52:22

of a board monk this

52:24

may be like okay can we go

52:27

we had three we got three groups

52:29

of theory that does your multiplication lesson

52:31

for the day that three times three of nine

52:34

and learned a about the angels it

52:36

it could have literally just been something like

52:38

that especially because we find

52:40

like the powers and the dominion's

52:42

who were literally just place holders in

52:45

here which , for

52:47

it's it's funny cause cause probably

52:49

actual examples of this but it just

52:51

sounds like they might be out only

52:54

writing fanfare to or what

52:56

they extrapolate from what they know they

52:58

could be inserting themselves and some of the stories

53:00

without even knowing it's which leads us to

53:02

the next choir the mary sues

53:05

and couldn't have the have the

53:08

next to an app are we got dab dominion's

53:10

also called lords ah

53:12

they are the highest of the middle choirs

53:14

and they govern acquires below them

53:17

like he said it's it's kind of a place holder they

53:20

place , seem like they do much they're just they're the

53:22

management get this is middle management all

53:24

they do is micromanage the angels

53:27

below them who already know their jobs

53:29

this so if is something goes wrong

53:32

in nature despite

53:34

the dominion's fault they they got

53:36

an angel occupied with some

53:38

side project that doesn't even matter

53:41

you know promotional on

53:43

some event that hasn't even been approved

53:46

by upper management yet says you know because

53:48

of that we got an earthquake okay suppose

53:51

it is probably their fault sit there

53:53

was an angel in charge of you know the

53:55

sars virus is to make sure they don't get loose

53:57

and that the dominion keep

53:59

i'm in charge of like something else so

54:02

, that this is where our problems

54:04

come from it's middle management messing

54:06

with things that they have no business touching

54:09

fear that this literally that this are like there's nothing

54:11

really written about of their just managers

54:14

of those below them that's it it's

54:17

funny that he does it that's all we have they

54:19

managed those beneath them their middle management

54:22

give them a and acting role in office space

54:24

and you've got to go these

54:27

, are a john c mckinley

54:29

and a who has a paul wilson who

54:31

who come in in the bob's

54:34

who come in and like review every

54:36

everybody yeah they don't know what they're what well

54:40

jason let's take a little break and

54:43

come back for a second part of angel

54:45

park which is you know the companion

54:47

podcast candy chat i'm just

54:49

kidding but let's do put a cap on it

54:51

for this week will come back next week for

54:54

a part two in which will continue

54:56

on the hierarchy of angels including

54:58

the third sphere the highest choirs

55:01

of angels was will get into

55:03

the evolution of the angel image over

55:05

the years and i'm sure some

55:07

puns will sneak in there at some point as well

55:10

so everybody there stay tuned, we'll

55:12

be back in about a week with more

55:14

angel action on blurry photos

55:16

thanks for listening