0:02

Hey everyone, before we release

0:04

our final story of the season, we wanted to

0:06

share an episode from another one of my favorite

0:08

shows, This is Uncomfortable, a

0:10

podcast from Marketplace. This

0:13

is Uncomfortable is hosted by Rima

0:15

Kress, and they're currently back for their

0:17

eighth season. They tell stories about

0:19

money, but not like financial

0:21

analysis or how to save for retirement.

0:24

It's personal stories about how money impacts

0:26

all parts of our lives.

0:28

The episode we've chosen for you is about the murky

0:30

ethics surrounding egg donation, and

0:33

we meet someone who donated their eggs multiple

0:35

times over the course of their twenties.

0:37

You can find This is Uncomfortable wherever you get

0:40

your podcasts.

0:41

And we'll be back tomorrow with the final bodies

0:43

episode of the season.

0:49

One day, her freshman year of college, Ashley

0:51

Griffin was leaving the dining hall when she saw

0:53

a poster. There was like a bulletin

0:56

board that had different campus

0:59

activities and clubs on them. And

1:02

there was one flyer on there that

1:04

was like, become an egg donor, make up to

1:06

like

1:08

$10,000 and all you have to do is

1:10

sell your eggs? It kind of blew Ashley's

1:12

mind. She

1:15

was just 18. Most clinics require donors

1:17

to be at least 21, so she'd have to wait.

1:20

But in the meantime, it became a bit of a running joke

1:22

among her family and friends. Yeah, student

1:24

loans suck, but it's not going to matter because I'll

1:27

donate my eggs and then I'll get money. Or

1:29

like, maybe I'm not going to pass my classes

1:31

or graduate or get whatever job. But

1:34

good news. Sounds like people want our eggs. It

1:37

felt way too good to be true. An easy

1:39

way to solve all of her money problems.

1:42

Growing up, Ashley watched her family go

1:44

from one financial crisis to the

1:46

next. Yeah, not infrequent to

1:48

have water or electricity shut off in our home.

1:51

Not infrequent to be. We were

1:53

evicted a few times, so I heard

1:55

those stressors. But her

1:58

parents, they did everything they could.

1:59

to give Ashley and her four siblings a normal

2:02

childhood. Her dad worked multiple jobs

2:04

and would get creative to make ends meet. I

2:07

remember hearing him talking about donating plasma

2:09

so we could have extra money around Christmas.

2:13

Ashley waited patiently for three years until

2:15

she was 21, and by then, she was

2:17

even more confident. I was like, I

2:19

have donated plasma, I've donated blood,

2:22

I've donated hair. Yeah, this

2:24

checks out. This is next. Like,

2:27

yes, obviously, why wouldn't she sell her eggs?

2:30

21-year-old me felt so, like,

2:33

eager and hopeful and,

2:35

like, this was maybe gonna change everything

2:39

and make, like, all the dreams I had

2:41

possible. And on top

2:43

of it, I'm doing a good thing that will make

2:45

people happy.

2:51

I'm Rima Freights, and welcome to This is

2:53

Uncomfortable, the show where we talk about how money

2:55

makes life messy. People

2:57

who sell their eggs can stand to make anywhere

3:00

from $3,000 to, really, as

3:03

much as someone is willing to pay. There's no

3:05

limit. Egg donation is a

3:07

multi-billion dollar industry, and

3:10

it's only growing. But what's interesting

3:12

is that there's virtually no federal regulation

3:14

around how donors are treated or paid,

3:17

and there haven't been many studies on their experiences.

3:20

For years now, I've been fascinated by

3:23

the idea of egg donation and what it's like for

3:25

donors to make this life-altering transaction,

3:28

which, by the way, I should say, even though within

3:31

the industry it's called egg donation, these

3:33

are not donations.

3:34

There's an exchange of money happening.

3:37

I've spent weeks talking with dozens

3:39

of young women who've sold their eggs, and

3:41

Ashley's story especially

3:43

stuck with me. Ashley began

3:45

donating eggs at 21, and to this

3:47

day, she has no idea how many

3:49

kids are out there with half her DNA. Each

3:52

time she donated, her view on the industry

3:54

and her role in it evolved. And

3:57

eventually, it forced her to grapple with

3:59

seemingly impossible

3:59

impossible questions about

4:02

her own future and family.

4:09

When Ashley was 17 and finishing up high

4:11

school, she was for the first time thinking about

4:13

what would come next for her. I had

4:15

a teacher in high school who will come up again

4:18

in this conversation, who I remember

4:20

like very seriously pulled me

4:22

aside and he said like,

4:24

don't assume your parents have money for college

4:26

for you, they might not. And I thought that was the

4:28

funniest thing and never once crossed my mind

4:30

that my parents might be like providing

4:32

me any money once I was out of the house. The

4:35

teacher Ashley is referring to was her English

4:37

teacher. He was a really big mentor in her life.

4:40

She could see herself having a life like his one day,

4:42

teaching high school, having a family. First

4:45

though, she'd have to get a degree. Ashley

4:48

decided to go to a college not far from where she

4:50

grew up in Washington state. She got

4:52

some financial aid, but like so many of us

4:54

ended up taking out

4:55

student loans. After

4:57

graduating, she'd owe $40,000.

5:00

Ashley didn't think too much about that number.

5:02

She just wanted independence with

5:04

student loan money and financial aid for

5:06

the first time ever. She had real

5:08

money at her disposal. I felt

5:12

briefly rich by student loans.

5:14

Living on campus meant you had to have a meal

5:16

plan. And I, yes. And

5:19

I had the unlimited meal plan. And

5:21

I, you were rich, rich. Oh my gosh.

5:23

My friends, I remember complained about the dining hall

5:25

food all the time. And I was like, what are you talking

5:28

about? I haven't had this much salad in my life.

5:31

Despite the hardships her family had gone through, Ashley

5:33

had never thought that they were poor. She

5:35

just figured growing up in a big family, it

5:38

makes things tight. That changed

5:40

once she started opening up to her friends about her

5:42

childhood.

5:43

And so many of the stories I

5:46

had, I didn't realize were strange until

5:48

I saw people's reactions.

5:50

She wasn't ashamed, but she did start to

5:52

look back on her past and see how money made

5:54

things unstable. They'd get stuck in

5:56

a cycle, be in a crisis, find a way

5:58

to get some money. they'd face another

6:00

crisis and over and over.

6:03

Now that she was out on her own, Ashley

6:05

was determined to find lasting stability.

6:12

Step one was filling out an application to sell

6:14

her eggs. Ashley lived in Washington

6:16

and decided to look out of state to California.

6:19

She'd learned that fertility clinics there tend to

6:21

pay more. Can you walk me through the application

6:23

process? Like what kinds of questions?

6:26

Yeah, it's like the worst dating

6:28

profile. It's

6:30

so intense. There

6:33

are the simple questions. How old are you? What

6:35

color are your eyes? Do you understand that

6:37

this is a medical procedure? And then

6:39

the more thorough questions, her medical

6:41

history,

6:42

her family's medical history, her grades in

6:44

high school. They wanted to know whether she was athletic,

6:46

did drugs, was on birth control. What

6:49

do you like to do for fun? What are

6:51

your goals with school? What was your childhood

6:53

like? What? Tell me about the relationships

6:55

with each of your siblings. What would you want to

6:57

communicate to any future offspring?

7:00

Well, it sounds like in

7:02

answering these questions, you're selling yourself.

7:07

Still, she snuck in a few comments about her

7:09

values. She didn't want children born

7:11

of her eggs to be spanked,

7:12

and it was important that prospective parents

7:14

were accepting of all sexualities. This

7:17

time in Ashley's life felt so full

7:19

of possibility. She was studying English

7:21

and linguistics with the hopes of becoming a teacher.

7:24

She also dreamed of eventually becoming a parent herself.

7:27

She just didn't want to start that journey with student

7:29

loans. It was

7:31

hugely weighing on my mind that I shouldn't

7:33

have kids unless I could afford it. So

7:35

it felt like here's a chance to help

7:38

somebody else have a family and

7:40

make it so maybe I can someday have a family.

7:43

Selling her eggs would open all those

7:45

doors for her.

7:46

Ashley remembers when she heard back from the clinic.

7:49

She'd been couch surfing and working at an elementary

7:51

school between semesters. She was standing

7:53

on the playground waiting for her shift to start when

7:56

she got the email.

7:57

They told her she'd been accepted into the egg bank program.

8:00

and they wanted her to donate eggs twice,

8:02

and she'd get $8,000 each time. $8,000? I

8:06

could... I

8:09

wonder if my sister could go to college if

8:11

she wanted to. I wonder if, like,

8:14

okay, I could

8:16

take out fewer student loans or

8:18

I could still take out student loans and then

8:20

have $8,000.

8:23

The whole shift was a blur. Ashley

8:25

started daydreaming of all the possibilities.

8:28

And then it dawned on me part way through work, I

8:30

pulled my phone out again to check. I was like, oh, my

8:32

gosh, they said for two cycles.

8:35

That's $16,000. Like,

8:37

that was, like,

8:39

an unbelievable amount of money to me.

8:41

She wouldn't have to worry about being a burden on her

8:43

family or whether she could afford another semester

8:46

at school. Maybe she could even do something fun,

8:48

go on a trip.

8:50

Ashley said, yes, sign me up.

8:55

Before her procedure, doctors sent her hormone-filled

8:58

syringes to inject herself with to help

9:00

prepare her body. I felt nauseous.

9:03

I wasn't throwing up yet, but I felt very

9:06

sick. I was starting to feel pretty

9:08

bloated, and I felt very sore

9:10

in my abdomen.

9:12

The clinic flew Ashley from Washington to California.

9:15

They even sent someone to pick her up from the airport. As

9:17

soon as she walked into the clinic, she felt like

9:19

a celebrity. They offered her coffee

9:22

and tea. The staff was telling her what a good

9:24

person she was congratulating

9:26

her on her high-fertility count, like, oh, my God,

9:28

you are the perfect candidate. And

9:31

then they got down to business, told her what

9:33

would happen next. They explained to her that

9:35

people with uteruses ovulate once

9:37

a month and usually ovulate just

9:40

one egg.

9:41

But the hormones she'd been injecting in her stomach would

9:43

stimulate her ovaries to create multiple

9:45

eggs. And then once it's time to actually

9:47

retrieve them, the doctors would insert a thick

9:49

needle through her vaginal tissues and

9:52

then suction the eggs from her ovaries. They

9:54

then explained the risks of the procedure,

9:57

the short of it being,

9:58

don't worry. I specifically

10:01

remember them saying no study

10:03

has shown that there are any negative

10:06

side effects from egg donation. I

10:08

remember them saying there was one very, very,

10:10

very rare complication called

10:13

ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome.

10:16

Basically, the same hormones that make the ovaries

10:18

release eggs can also cause ovarian

10:21

hyperstimulation syndrome, which means

10:23

not only do the ovaries get swollen and painful,

10:26

but you get all these other symptoms too. Things

10:28

like intense bloating, difficulty breathing,

10:30

abdominal pain, it's no joke. And

10:33

in severe cases, you can experience life-threatening

10:35

complications like blood clots or internal

10:37

bleeding. Ashley took the doctor's

10:39

word for it though. Hyperstimulation is

10:42

rare. She'd probably just have temporary cramps

10:44

and nausea. I asked her if she

10:46

had any hesitations or felt nervous,

10:49

and I was surprised to hear her say, no, not

10:51

at all, even when the side

10:52

effects from the hormones eventually got worse.

10:55

And so it felt so surreal

10:57

to me that I felt so bad, but I was injecting

11:00

myself with more of the medicine that made

11:02

it bad. By the last few

11:04

days, I remember I could barely

11:06

walk. I had to walk very slow. And

11:09

were you also thinking in the back of your mind, like,

11:11

well,

11:12

this is worth the money? Absolutely.

11:14

I was absolutely counting on it. There was no

11:17

way I was backing out once I was there.

11:19

Yes, she was in pain. But the money

11:22

she'd get from this retrieval felt monumental.

11:24

A couple days of discomfort for long-term

11:26

security.

11:28

So on the day of the retrieval, Ashley walked

11:30

from the hotel to the clinic. Then she

11:32

was sedated. The goal was to retrieve 10

11:34

to 15 eggs. I

11:37

woke up sore, but I don't remember it being horrible.

11:42

But I remember them saying, we are very worried

11:44

that you're going to hyperstimulate. We got 33 eggs.

11:48

It was more than we thought. Yes.

11:50

Were you surprised by that number? Yeah, I felt

11:53

like a prodigy. I

11:55

was, like, talked about.

11:57

Like, it was a very cool thing. The

12:00

fact that Ashley was so young and just naturally

12:02

fertile made her an ideal candidate for egg

12:04

donation. After the procedure,

12:07

Ashley got a check for $8,000. So

12:09

it was in my account before school started

12:12

in September. When you say that you got the

12:14

check right away, I'm, I don't know why I'm imagining

12:16

you like on the hospital bed and someone's literally

12:18

handing you a check. Yes, that's what happened. That

12:21

is... Really? You were like in a daze and

12:23

they just like hand you a check? Yes.

12:25

Yes. I remember, because I remember thinking, God, I hope

12:27

I don't lose this.

12:32

The clinic sent her away with a tape measure,

12:34

instructing her to measure around her abdomen to

12:36

see if the swelling got worse, a sign of

12:38

hyperstimulation. Because

12:40

Ashley was already naturally fertile, the doctors

12:43

worried that maybe the hormone dose prescribed

12:45

was too high in her case, which can

12:47

lead to hyperstimulation. I

12:49

remember it, it was so

12:51

confusing going from

12:54

being told, this is so rare, it never

12:56

happens, to then, don't

12:58

worry, don't worry about it. This happens

13:01

all the time. It's going to get better soon.

13:04

She flew back home to Washington, but the pain

13:07

and the swelling weren't going away.

13:10

Every day my abdomen was bigger. Like at

13:12

one point I couldn't see my toes. Like

13:14

I looked significantly pregnant. The

13:17

advice I kept getting was drink water,

13:19

not just water, drink electrolytes. So

13:22

I remember my friend would go to the store and

13:24

buy me these huge containers of Gatorade

13:27

and I drank the whole thing. Like I

13:29

was consuming so much fluid and

13:31

I wasn't peeing at all. It

13:33

was all that fluid was just going into the third

13:36

space of my abdominal cavity. And

13:38

by the end, like at the worst

13:40

of it, I couldn't lay down because when I

13:43

lay down I felt like I was drowning.

13:45

Her friend eventually rushed her over to the emergency

13:48

room where doctors confirmed that fluid

13:50

was now also in her chest, which

13:52

I didn't even realize was a thing that could happen.

13:55

The doctors at the ER couldn't do much to

13:57

help her. Nobody really knew what was

13:59

happening. I do remember one of the nurses

14:01

was a gay man and he was like very nice

14:03

to me and thanked me like Thanks

14:06

to you doing this. I might be able to have kids

14:08

They sent her home with pain

14:10

medication that night Ashley

14:12

had the best pee of her life a

14:15

sign that her body was finally recovering

14:22

With money in the bank life got easier,

14:24

you know, she could visit her family She could buy

14:26

textbooks without overdrafting her account

14:29

But remember Ashley had signed on for

14:31

two retrievals. She'd only done one I

14:34

figured after that first awful experience

14:37

There was a good chance Ashley wouldn't do it a second

14:39

time and the people in her life thought

14:41

the same thing But

14:43

she was considering it and there had

14:45

been nice moments too when she

14:47

was in San Francisco for her first donation procedure She

14:50

started noticing queer families out and about

14:52

and she think I'm helping build those families.

14:56

That's meaningful But

14:58

at the same time her perspective on selling

15:00

her eggs began to shift I remember

15:02

the language I kept using was like why I feel

15:05

like a donor should unionize like, what

15:07

do you mean? There's all this

15:09

like

15:10

physical labor that can

15:12

go so horribly wrong That

15:15

was the first time it was like real

15:17

to me the power differential

15:19

between me and the clinic

15:22

She wanted to feel less alone to talk to other

15:24

people who'd gone through this

15:26

So one day sitting at her desk late at night

15:28

she did some research and stumbled across a Facebook

15:31

group full of other donors and

15:33

Many of them they were sharing the same

15:35

symptoms of hyperstimulation of unbelievable

15:38

pain and bloating and how they had to be hospitalized

15:41

pages and pages of results of people describing

15:44

like exactly the same sort

15:46

of things I had experienced and

15:48

Like Ashley some of them had no idea

15:50

those risks were even possible There

15:52

were also hundreds of posts exchanging tips

15:55

and giving advice.

15:56

I was so impressed by so many of the people

15:59

on the page how it seemed

16:01

like they were able to advocate for themselves

16:03

and that they were sharing information about which

16:05

clinics treated them well and which didn't.

16:11

Sitting there, sifting through the group, she

16:13

started learning all these things about the egg donation

16:16

industry that surprised her. They're

16:18

the same things that also first drew me to this topic.

16:21

Like the fact that there are barely any studies

16:23

about how egg donation impacts donors.

16:26

Experts often try to reassure donors of the risks

16:28

by saying, there aren't many studies showing

16:30

long-term negative effects.

16:32

Well, that's because there aren't many studies

16:34

looking into the long-term effects in the first place.

16:38

Ashley also learned that the egg donation industry

16:40

is so lucrative in part because, unlike

16:42

in other countries, there are few government

16:44

regulations. There are no federal

16:46

laws or policies to

16:47

protect egg donors. Some donors

16:49

I talked with told me that even though they're undergoing

16:52

a procedure, they don't always feel like

16:54

the patient.

16:55

Instead, the focus tends to be on the people

16:57

buying the eggs, on the intended parents.

16:59

Egg donors might be

17:01

the ones with the commodity, healthy, plentiful

17:03

eggs, but how much they get paid is

17:06

largely dependent on market forces. And

17:09

that felt really like, like I think

17:11

it was like relief, anger, empowerment,

17:13

like Yeah. was like the shift of feelings

17:16

there, reading it.

17:18

On that Facebook group, Ashley saw comments of

17:20

people who received up to $50,000 for a

17:23

single donation. For

17:25

days, she found herself stewing over

17:27

all of this. But she'd

17:30

already agreed to second donation and

17:32

felt like she couldn't change her mind.

17:36

Luckily, that procedure went fine. They

17:39

got 40 eggs and they'd adjusted the hormones

17:41

to decrease her risk of hyperstimulation.

17:44

By that point, she'd donated about 70 eggs.

17:47

So would anyone

17:50

in your life say something like, oh,

17:52

so you could potentially have 70 kids

17:56

out there who are biologically related to

17:58

you? Yes. immediately

18:00

correct them. It'd be like it's more like 20 and

18:02

they're like 20 is still a lot. Ashley

18:05

wanted all of her donations to be open, meaning

18:08

that she would know the expectant parents and they'd

18:10

know her. But she was told that

18:12

wasn't an option. So really, she

18:14

had no idea how many of her 70 eggs

18:17

would actually be used.

18:19

And at the time, she didn't think about the eggs she

18:21

donated as potentially becoming children,

18:24

let alone her children. When

18:26

I remember myself being in those conversations,

18:30

there was one person who did push back more.

18:32

It was that teacher. Her former

18:34

high school English teacher, the one who'd encouraged her

18:37

to plan for college, they were still close.

18:39

He'd sold her a car. She'd occasionally babysit

18:41

for him.

18:42

And I remember him saying like, how

18:44

could you not think of these as your kids?

18:48

I'd like had a narrative I could

18:50

stick to and I stuck to it. Which

18:52

is? Which is there. I

18:55

like I've done something

18:57

that's helpful. I've done something that's a bit

18:59

painful, but parenting

19:01

is raising children. It's knowing

19:03

children. The genetics don't matter

19:05

that much. So like, how dare I think

19:07

that I have any like part

19:10

of this kid's life and I'm not even doing anything

19:12

for them.

19:14

Ashley even felt that way when she eventually

19:16

donated a third time to close friends.

19:19

They

19:19

were having fertility

19:19

problems and Ashley was like, well,

19:22

I've done this procedure before. I can give you my

19:24

eggs free of charge.

19:27

At the same time, that $16,000 from her first two

19:30

donations

19:30

did not go as far as Ashley

19:32

expected. She was visiting family

19:35

when someone asked her how taxes

19:37

go. I was like, what? I'm poor. I don't need to pay taxes.

19:39

They're like, what are you talking about? You make money this

19:41

year. You need to pay taxes. And

19:44

that's how I learned the money from egg donation

19:46

is taxed as self employment.

19:49

And then I didn't have enough

19:51

money in my bank account to pay for the taxes

19:54

I owed on it.

19:55

She remembers looking at her bank account, just

19:57

crying. A

19:59

lot of the money she'd earn

19:59

and went towards some old medical debt she had.

20:02

I had a heart procedure done. I had

20:05

knee surgery.

20:06

Plus, she was paying those hospital bills from her

20:09

first donation. The clinic was going to reimburse

20:11

her for it, but she lost track of her receipts

20:13

and didn't end up filing it, which I found

20:15

very relatable. Ashley will be the first

20:18

to tell you that she is not the best with money.

20:21

Suddenly, all those plans she'd had

20:23

for her egg donation checks felt like

20:25

a naive fantasy. $8,000 is nothing. I

20:28

thought it was a lot of money. It's not. It all

20:30

goes back.

20:34

Knowing how much would be taxed and how

20:36

hard egg donation was on her body, it

20:39

made Ashley rethink the process entirely.

20:42

Clinics, she thought, are raking in too much

20:44

profit at the expense of donors and prospective

20:46

parents. For parents, it can cost

20:48

upwards of $20,000 to conceive

20:51

with a donor egg. Like, maybe

20:53

Ashley would do it again, but

20:55

this time she'd ask herself a question first.

20:58

If I don't want to do this, what is the

21:00

amount of money that would change my mind? I'll

21:03

set that

21:04

as my number, and if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen,

21:06

and if it does, I get the money. And

21:08

that was like a big mindset

21:09

shift. So

21:12

what was that change your mind amount of

21:14

money? I decided if somebody

21:16

paid me $15,000, I would do it.

21:20

After the break, Ashley gets

21:22

more than what she bargained for.

21:28

From an Iraq war coverup to towns ravaged

21:30

by opioids, to

21:34

the roots of our modern immigration crisis,

21:38

Embedded explores what's been sealed off and undisclosed.

21:40

NPR's original investigative podcast reveals why

21:44

these stories and the people behind them

21:46

matter. Listen

21:48

to The Embedded Podcast, only from NPR's The

21:50

New York Times. The New York

21:52

Times, and the New York Times are the

21:54

only ones that are in the audience to be in

21:56

the audience. Only from NPR.

22:02

When Ashley picked that change-your-mind amount

22:04

of money, $15,000, she is going through a lot.

22:09

She's 22, still in college. She can pay

22:11

her rent, buy textbooks, and take out fewer

22:13

loans. But things still felt

22:15

precarious. Like one misstep,

22:18

an accident, an unexpected bill could

22:20

upend her life.

22:22

So when she got news that a couple

22:24

saw the price she'd set and said, sure,

22:28

Ashley could hardly believe it.

22:30

This time, though, she wouldn't be donating all for

22:32

eggs to a clinic. Instead, her eggs would

22:34

go just to this one couple. One

22:36

thing I had asked for was

22:39

to be notified of a live birth if it

22:41

happened. I didn't ask for, like,

22:44

sex or details. Like

22:47

I just wanted to know if there was a live

22:49

birth. At this point, it was starting to

22:51

dawn on me how many potential children could exist.

22:54

And I, like, wanted to, like, have the math in my head

22:56

of what that might look like.

22:58

But the intended parents were firm. They

23:01

didn't want Ashley to have any information.

23:03

They knew everything about her, down to her SAT

23:06

scores. But they wouldn't even tell her

23:08

if

23:08

they had a baby with her eggs. It

23:10

stung. In my conversations

23:12

with donors, they often said that was the most painful

23:15

part, the fact that some parents or clinics

23:17

completely cut them out once they'd secured the eggs.

23:21

But for Ashley, the money was too good

23:23

to back out. It felt like an on-ramp

23:25

onto the financial stability she craved.

23:28

The procedure went smoothly, and she put the $15,000

23:30

towards her student debt.

23:33

Occasionally, she'd use the money to go out to nice dinners

23:35

with her friends or to visit

23:36

her old high school English teacher. By

23:39

now, egg donation felt routine.

23:42

It didn't feel, like, new and scary

23:44

anymore, so it just felt like a thing that I

23:46

could do. Then, I was

23:48

like, alright, I'll do it again, but only for $20,000. Didn't

23:52

think anybody would say yes to that. Wait, wait, wait, back

23:54

up. So you're

23:56

like, you want to do it again? Uh,

23:59

yeah.

25:59

brought up the money. He specifically

26:02

said that's part of the reason he picked me because he

26:04

like respected that I was like

26:07

naming a price that like mattered to me and

26:09

like he hoped that like if he had

26:11

kids and or specifically a daughter that

26:13

like she would like demand money

26:15

for it like it just was dreamy.

26:20

After the procedure the expectant father drove

26:22

her from the clinic back to her hotel with a care

26:25

package she'd made for her recovery.

26:27

She also got a check for $20,000. The

26:30

money from this donation helped her to finally stop

26:32

couch surfing and for the first time she

26:34

could qualify for a place of her own.

26:37

She built a bookshelf around the perimeter of the living

26:39

space and filled her apartment

26:41

with her favorite colors sky

26:43

blue and yellow. I had this

26:45

very intense job and so coming

26:47

home every night to a place that was

26:49

just mine and nobody else was there it was

26:52

like just peace that I never

26:54

experienced.

26:55

Things were finally falling into place.

26:58

Ashley had her own apartment and her last donation

27:00

had been such a positive experience finally

27:03

giving her a sense of stability.

27:05

I felt done that

27:08

felt like such a good note to go out on.

27:11

About a year later in 2018 Ashley

27:14

was in a new relationship she was exploring

27:16

her queerness after years of avoiding it.

27:19

She'd done a total of five donations

27:22

six is the recommended maximum for egg donors

27:24

so it felt like a good time to stop and

27:26

if anything came up like a friend or family

27:29

needed eggs she could donate to them. Meanwhile

27:32

her financial situation was

27:34

starting to go downhill again. I get

27:36

a chunk of money and I do what

27:38

I can with it for as long as I can and then I'm

27:40

desperate again.

27:42

She was struggling with her mental health and having

27:44

a hard time finding consistent

27:45

work. Eventually she got a job

27:47

at a crisis shelter which paid very little.

27:50

Then one day Ashley was on a walk in the park

27:52

scrolling through her phone when she saw a news article

27:55

about the clinic where she'd first donated eggs. They'd

27:58

apparently had a malfunction with the freezer. causing

28:00

them to lose the egg bank.

28:02

She emailed them and was like, do

28:04

you all by any chance want me to donate again?

28:06

And they sent me back like, yep, you could come down,

28:09

like come whenever you want. We've upped our prices

28:11

to $10,000 now instead of eight. And

28:14

so I did it and I, that

28:16

was like absolutely just financial desperateness.

28:19

This clinic didn't let donors set their own prices,

28:22

but not having to go through a lengthy application process

28:25

seemed like a fine trade-off.

28:26

She just needed money now. My

28:30

bank account hit zero every month at

28:32

some point in the month. At

28:34

that point, Ashley was in her mid-20s and

28:37

her views on the industry had come into

28:39

sharp focus. By this point,

28:41

I felt pretty critical of like

28:43

the fertility industry at large and

28:46

whose eggs they wanted and whose they didn't and

28:49

who got paid and who did, like all

28:51

of that was like forming in my mind. I

28:54

look young, I am white and

28:56

blonde and don't wear makeup,

28:58

right? I see the like youthfulness

29:01

of me combined with like a

29:03

college degree that I think is exactly

29:06

what the fertility industry is like trying

29:08

to market and like I'm participating

29:10

in that and benefiting from that.

29:15

There are studies that show egg donors who

29:17

are well-educated are offered more money.

29:20

And white and Asian donors in particular tend

29:23

to get paid dramatically more money than black

29:25

and Hispanic donors. We're talking a difference

29:27

of tens of thousands of dollars. While

29:30

researching for this episode, we also came across

29:32

very specific ads for egg donors, potential

29:35

parents looking for donors with a particular height,

29:38

S.A.T. score, eye color, ethnicity.

29:41

Basically, if a wealthy family wants certain

29:43

attributes in their egg donor, they're likely

29:45

to get it. And around this time,

29:48

as Ashley was coming out as queer, she

29:50

noticed that when she started disclosing that on egg

29:52

donor applications, she'd be denied.

29:55

I was scared that

29:57

my eggs were going to like bad

29:59

people. who raised

30:02

their kids in bad ways. And

30:04

like if queerness influences,

30:07

and maybe it didn't, I don't know, how my application

30:09

is, who are these intended parents? Are

30:11

they gonna be supportive of their kids if they're queer?

30:15

She was legitimately torn because

30:17

taking part in the egg donation industry also

30:19

felt like the only way through the crises she was facing.

30:23

So Ashley made an appointment, flew down to

30:25

California, and walked into the clinic. Years

30:28

ago, she'd originally entered that clinic full

30:30

of optimism and excitement. People told

30:32

her she was special and generous, making

30:34

miracles happen. And she'd

30:36

believed them. Now she just

30:38

felt resigned. It also felt

30:41

like circular in

30:43

this weird and powerful way,

30:45

like walking into that

30:47

same place, knowing so

30:49

much more than I had known when I was 21 and

30:51

first donated there, and being a pretty different

30:54

person now. Like,

30:58

yeah, I wonder how much deep down I

31:00

wanted that closure or something.

31:03

While lying on that hospital

31:05

bed that day, Ashley received a $10,000 check.

31:11

And around that same time, the father from her

31:14

fourth donation had sent her photos of his

31:16

newborn.

31:17

Looking at the pictures, Ashley didn't expect

31:19

to feel as emotional as she did. Oh,

31:22

that's a kid who looks like my nieces and nephews.

31:25

That is a kid who looks like my baby pictures.

31:28

She thought about pictures she'd seen of her great-grandparents

31:30

as children. Seeing that

31:33

face, like through the generations, and

31:35

be like, and these kids are a part of that

31:37

too. And I don't know how many other

31:40

kids there are, and I don't, it's

31:43

out of my hands, and that was like a choice

31:45

that I made, but just feeling like the

31:47

weight of that.

31:49

Is that something that you think about often? Yeah,

31:51

every day, yeah.

31:59

and Ancestry.com out there,

32:02

it is very possible she'll be hearing from them

32:04

as they grow up. ASHLEY

32:05

QUINN, Actress, Ancestry.com When I, like, consider the sheer number of relationships

32:08

I don't have or don't have yet,

32:10

that it becomes overwhelming.

32:13

HOLLY

32:14

ZUBERMAN, Actress, Ancestry.com Like, if all of those kids eventually

32:16

want a meaningful relationship with Ashley, would

32:18

she even have time to give them that?

32:22

All of this, the guilt and confusion,

32:25

became magnified in 2020, when

32:27

Ashley and her partner Quinn started talking

32:29

about building their own family. They

32:31

can't do that biologically, so they bought anonymous

32:34

sperm from a local sperm bank. They

32:36

figured they'd use one of Ashley's eggs. It's still 2020,

32:38

it's still lockdown. I

32:42

joined, like, a million Facebook groups, mostly

32:44

about Animal Crossing. But one of the Facebook

32:47

groups I joined was

32:50

for donor-conceived people, sharing

32:52

their experiences. And I,

32:55

like, read through a couple

32:57

hours worth of those stories. She thought

33:00

about what it must be like to be donor-conceived. But

33:03

scrolling through these posts, one

33:05

after the other, about their experiences, about

33:08

how they were grappling with these big identity questions,

33:11

it was completely overwhelming. There's 70

33:14

siblings, so, like, how... Even if they wanted to

33:16

get to know all of them, not knowing if

33:18

they're going to accidentally date, which has

33:20

happened, like, one of their genetic siblings. A

33:22

lot of feelings of resentment for, like, their

33:24

genetic parents who profited. Describing

33:27

feeling like babies on an assembly line. Of

33:31

course, there are plenty of donor-conceived adults who don't feel this

33:33

way. But the volume

33:35

of people she was seeing on this Facebook group sent

33:38

Ashley into a spiral. And,

33:40

like, just

33:41

reading all of that and feeling it and

33:43

knowing, like, I am a part

33:46

of that, I have been a part of that.

33:54

Ashley remembers crying that night and talking

33:56

with her partner about it. I

33:57

felt like I've, like...

34:00

I've already used up my I didn't know better card,

34:03

like how dare I now use an anonymous

34:05

sperm donor. Like I can't, and

34:07

that means that any child

34:09

of mine who's genetically mine

34:12

and who I birth would be

34:14

kind of dual donor conceived because

34:17

they would have an unknown number of siblings from

34:19

their genetic father's side and

34:21

an unknown number of genetic siblings

34:23

from my side.

34:24

I wouldn't use this language now, but the time it felt

34:26

like I don't get to have kids. Like

34:29

I already like messed up too bad.

34:32

I've spent hours talking to Ashley and there

34:34

are times like this when she can be really hard

34:35

on herself, but the idea of her

34:38

child having countless half siblings was

34:40

more than she could bear. It

34:42

felt like there was no clear or right answer.

34:45

She talked to a trusted medical provider

34:47

about it. And she kind of like

34:49

shrugged in like a super validating

34:51

way and was like, yeah, I

34:54

think she's like, you can't really enter parenthood

34:56

and be morally pure. Like all the soap boxes

34:59

you start out on like

35:01

get demolished by the children you're like

35:03

raising or not raising. And I

35:05

think there's like humility

35:08

there. And I don't think for me at least,

35:10

I don't find it helpful to try to find the

35:12

exact right move that like

35:14

makes me impossible

35:17

to criticize.

35:19

Today, Ashley feels like the best

35:21

anyone can do is be as informed as possible

35:23

about their options and be willing to

35:25

embrace the beautiful and complicated

35:28

things that come from the decisions they

35:30

make.

35:31

After talking through their options, Ashley

35:34

and her partner Quinn agreed to sell the

35:36

anonymous sperm back to the sperm bank

35:38

and put their pregnancy plans on hold.

35:41

Meanwhile, Ashley herself didn't want to remain

35:43

an anonymous donor if she could help it. It's

35:45

something she'd always felt strongly about now even

35:47

more so. She urgently called

35:50

all the clinics she donated to in the past. I

35:52

am learning a lot more about the perspectives

35:55

of donor conceived adults. Please,

35:57

please, please have in my file,

35:59

like.

36:00

I am up for contact.

36:03

When someone did reach out, it was through the donor

36:05

sibling registry, a nonprofit that helps donor

36:07

families connect with each other.

36:09

Part of what she told me was that she

36:11

tried to get a hold of me through the clinic, and

36:13

the clinic said that there was a fee

36:16

to, like, pass information onto me... Oh, wow.

36:19

...and a fee for us to have a meeting

36:21

together.

36:22

And she wasn't really up for paying those fees, so

36:24

decided she'd try first to find me in other ways.

36:27

And I was

36:29

living, like, so

36:31

angry.

36:32

Ashley hadn't known that the Fertility Center was

36:34

charging parents

36:35

to have contact with her. They said that

36:37

the fee was to pay a staff member to verify

36:39

everyone's identities. It was for her protection,

36:42

they said. Ashley didn't buy that.

36:48

Almost a decade ago, Ashley knew

36:50

the decisions she was making, decisions for her

36:52

livelihood, would have lasting impacts. But

36:55

if she's honest with herself, she

36:57

hadn't quite grasped the weight of it. All

37:00

of the crises of my 20s led to,

37:02

like, major shifts, but specifically financial

37:04

crises, like, that was

37:06

one major part of why I

37:08

donated eggs and then continued to donate eggs.

37:11

Like, now those decisions mean

37:13

that there are human beings in

37:15

the world who wouldn't be here otherwise.

37:18

And, like, the fact of that is,

37:20

like, beautiful and nauseating

37:22

and overwhelming. Like, all of it, I

37:24

benefited and I was taken advantage

37:27

of by the fertility industry,

37:29

right? Like, and I

37:31

feel comfortable holding both of those at once. But,

37:35

yeah, money is relevant

37:37

for every single facet of it.

37:41

Sometimes Ashley daydreams about the conversations

37:44

she might have with the children conceived using

37:46

her eggs, what they might say when they

37:48

become adults. For a while,

37:50

she'd imagine those conversations

37:51

going terribly. What if

37:53

they hate her? But more

37:56

recently, those daydreams have evolved. Maybe

37:58

it'll be fine.

37:59

She can't predict what will happen, and right now she

38:02

wants to focus on being

38:02

more secure with herself, so she'll be ready

38:05

for those conversations.

38:14

In terms of building her own family, Ashley

38:16

still felt conflicted.

38:18

She was sad that she wasn't going to use her own eggs,

38:20

even if it felt like the right decision for them.

38:23

So, instead, like a lot of queer couples,

38:26

they had to come up with a creative solution. If

38:28

my partner and I have a child using my

38:30

partner's eggs and my brother's sperm, that

38:33

means that child

38:35

would know all of their siblings, because either

38:37

we have more kids or my brother has kids,

38:39

but we're all in each other's lives in whatever way

38:41

we are.

38:43

Ashley feels good about using her brother's sperm

38:45

and her partner's eggs, with her partner being

38:47

the one who carries. But

38:49

getting to this point, it was all so

38:51

complicated.

38:53

Queer people like Ashley and Quinn already

38:55

have so

38:55

many hoops to jump through when it comes to family

38:58

building. It can be hard enough to find fertility

39:00

centers that are ready and willing to work with queer families.

39:03

And on top of that, it's all so incredibly expensive.

39:06

They're going to do IVF, which can cost up to $14,000 for

39:08

one cycle. When

39:11

I asked Ashley how they were planning to afford

39:14

that, her response completely

39:16

threw me off guard. I got a significant

39:19

lawsuit settlement. Can

39:22

I ask you how much? The settlement was for

39:24

a million dollars.

39:25

Whoa. Yeah.

39:29

Okay, even though I sound surprised by that, and I

39:31

was, what she told me next,

39:33

how they got that settlement, that

39:35

was a story I didn't expect.

39:39

In fact, for weeks, I kept thinking

39:42

about it and talking about it with our team. We

39:44

tried to find a way to incorporate the lawsuit story

39:47

into this episode until it finally

39:49

dawned

39:49

on us that it was too big, too

39:52

complicated, and too important

39:54

to just casually mention. We

39:57

realized we definitely needed to do a

39:59

second

39:59

episode. Because that money, in

40:01

a lot of ways, is not just about Ashley's story.

40:04

It's also about her partner, Quinn's.

40:07

If I wanted to sue a teacher and a district

40:10

and a church, like, what do you do? I

40:12

don't think I was super aware of this being a thing you

40:14

could sue for. You

40:16

can find that episode in your feeds right now.

40:19

It is called The Cost

40:21

of Secrets.

40:33

All right, that is all for this episode. If

40:35

you have any thoughts about this story or, you

40:37

know, just want to shoot us a note, you can always email

40:39

me and the team

40:40

at uncomfortable at marketplace.org.

40:43

We love hearing from you all. Also,

40:45

if you like our show, please let us

40:47

know and leave us a review. That really

40:50

helps us out

40:50

and it actually makes it easier for other people to find

40:52

our show. And if you haven't

40:55

already, be sure to sign up for our weekly newsletter.

40:58

I usually write what's on my mind that week or

41:00

what's going on in my life. There's also always great

41:02

recommendations in there for things to cook or listen

41:05

to or watch. This week, I

41:07

share a little bit about what it's been like these last

41:09

few months working with the team on the new season. You

41:12

can

41:12

sign up for that at marketplace.org.

41:18

This episode was lead produced by Alice

41:20

Wilder and hosted by Rima Cárez. They

41:23

wrote the script together. The

41:25

episode got additional support from Hannah

41:27

Harris Green and Haley Hirschman. Zoe

41:30

Saunders is our senior producer. Our

41:33

editor is Jasmine Romero. Markay

41:36

Green is our digital producer with

41:38

help from Tony Wagner. I'm

41:40

the team's intern, Yvonne Marquez.

41:43

Sound design and audio engineering by Drew

41:46

Jostad and Juan Carlos

41:47

Dorado. Also special

41:50

thanks this week to Noha Sharif, Lauren

41:53

Jade Martin, and Diane Toberg.

41:56

Also to the Facebook group, We Are Egg Donors,

41:59

and all the donors.

41:59

who share their stories with us. Bridget

42:02

Bodner is Marketplace's Director of Podcasts.

42:06

Francesca Levi is the Executive Director

42:08

of Digital. And our theme music

42:10

is by Wonderly.

42:13

The second episode in this series is out

42:15

now. I can't wait for y'all to hear it.