0:00

Okay, great. Yeah,

0:03

let's do a little introduction. Oh

0:06

my God.

0:08

What's it all about?

0:12

So Emma, welcome

0:15

to Body and Wine: Conversations

0:17

on Sex and Spirituality

0:20

and so excited to talk to you about sex

0:22

and spirituality. We're

0:25

here with our Bras on.

0:26

This is a top actually ,

0:29

Yeah, I am being rude here in my underwear... and you're being very

0:31

tasteful in your bathing suit. It might

0:33

be good for us to introduce maybe how we know

0:35

each other. I have two key moments

0:37

that come to mind in terms of when I felt

0:40

more connected to you. One

0:42

being - you'll remember the memory quite

0:44

well . We're at the Root Stage,

0:47

which is at a festival called the OM festival

0:49

in Southern Ontario in the forest

0:52

romping around with whatever, 1015

0:54

hundred other colorful people.

0:56

And um , we're just

0:59

like having a great time. And I

1:01

remember taking off my

1:03

bra from underneath what I was

1:05

wearing, which I don't think was

1:08

much.

1:08

I think it was like a sheer dress.

1:09

Yeah, I think it was lace.

1:11

Yeah. I think it was lingerie...

1:14

So I'm taking off my bra from under the lingerie

1:16

and then making a bracelet out of it, wrapping

1:18

around my wrist. And then I

1:21

go up to you, so excited

1:22

- Emma! my

1:24

bra is on my wrist!!

1:27

Haha yeah,

1:27

And then I'm pretty sure you

1:29

said, "Oh my God, can

1:31

I motorboat you?"

1:32

Was it with my hands?

1:34

I feel like I like, I think it was with your hands

1:36

for sure at the beginning. It may

1:39

or may not have progressed. I don't remember the memories

1:41

blend over the years .

1:45

Yeah.

1:46

So it was a great affair. And then the other

1:48

memory that comes to mind is

1:50

when - so Emma

1:52

and I are both - have both spent, I mean I've

1:54

been in Kitchener, Waterloo, I was here for about

1:56

10 years. You've been here for quite a while as

1:58

well.

1:58

About that long. Yeah .

2:00

Yeah. And have gotten to know each other

2:02

over the years. But I think I really started

2:04

to get to know you maybe four or five years

2:06

ago. I was driving to Toronto

2:09

and giving you a ride

2:11

and that's when you were

2:14

convincing me to come to OM for the first time.

2:16

Our friend and I had an agenda, "Let's get

2:19

Carolyn to go to OM." And I

2:21

was like, I'll work on her. You work on her.

2:23

And then,

2:24

and it worked on me. And

2:27

I think that during that conversation, from

2:29

what I remember, we actually talked a lot

2:31

about the general subjects of what we are

2:33

talking today on the podcast. And I

2:35

think that kind of festival

2:38

community has been one that

2:40

I've been able to like really

2:43

learn so much about like I needed

2:45

to work on these areas of my life over the

2:47

years. And that's been one of the safest, most beautiful

2:50

places to do that. And I feel

2:52

like so grateful to those spaces,

2:54

those like ebbing and flowing spaces to help me

2:56

process those things. So yeah,

2:58

thanks for convincing

3:00

me to go to the festival.

3:03

To carnival . But anyway,

3:05

about you, Emma, I'm

3:08

just thinking how I would want to describe you.

3:10

Okay.

3:11

So Emma Dines is a

3:13

colorful, vibrant

3:16

human being. When I think

3:18

of you, I just picture like texture

3:21

and color, but not just in what you wear but

3:23

just in like how you embody

3:25

your life and a wonderful member of community.

3:27

Very open and intentional with people

3:30

and I think has a lot of wisdom.

3:32

I mean, I've known you in your professional

3:34

capacity as a yoga instructor, but also as

3:36

a friend and community member. And

3:39

I'm just excited to talk to you about

3:41

sex and the

3:44

things around that.

3:45

Yeah.

3:46

How would you describe yourself?

3:48

How would I describe this context or any context?

3:50

What's important to you for people to know?

3:52

It's funny, I feel like less

3:54

and less, I've been wanting to

3:56

describe myself like I, and

3:58

it's not like a strong, like I don't want to describe myself,

4:01

but you know, back when I had

4:03

a blog , I do still have a blog, but back when I

4:05

was like, what 10 words am I going to write

4:08

in my bio on my blog or Twitter

4:10

or whatever. Um , it'd be like

4:12

thinker, poet, Yogi,

4:14

clown, lover, gardener,

4:17

blah, blah, blah. Like just like all these

4:19

roles or whatever. Yeah . And um

4:21

, I don't feel as interested

4:24

in doing that anymore. Like, it's not like I anti

4:27

doing that, I just don't feel like

4:29

I need to name any of the things that

4:31

I do.

4:32

Yeah. I just wanna be,

4:36

and people can get to know me.

4:39

Yeah. In fact, I actually avoid telling

4:41

people, I meet that I'm a yoga teacher when they meet me because

4:43

there's all these ideas of what a yoga teacher is

4:46

like people will project, Oh, you must be super

4:48

fit, or Oh, you must be really strong,

4:50

or you must be super spiritual or whatever.

4:52

And they're like very, I mean "positive"

4:55

kinds of projections for most people. Some

4:57

people are like, Oh, you're a yoga teacher and you must

4:59

be kind of annoying. And

5:02

floaty and yeah , like unreliable

5:04

or something. So, but

5:06

I avoid telling people because

5:09

I feel like I'm not, I mean I feel like probably

5:12

most yoga teachers are not the stereotype

5:14

and I feel like I'm really not. So

5:17

yeah. So I don't describe

5:19

myself, but I would say that like community

5:22

is a huge thing that I love to

5:24

nurture and participate in my life.

5:26

So, and sometimes I'm referred to as

5:28

like the mom of the community.

5:30

Yeah.

5:30

But even that I don't - I like that,

5:32

but I don't want that to be so solid

5:35

because I don't want it to be that

5:37

everybody doesn't feel like they could nurture through

5:39

group or to get stuck in roles that

5:41

aren't flexible.

5:43

I don't know if it's coming

5:45

from like any sort of similar place,

5:47

but I have felt like in my

5:50

kind of mid twenties I went through these

5:52

years where I did really need to identify and

5:54

I wanted to figure out what those identifiers were.

5:57

And that was also super important for me.

5:59

I mean, and even last year, like for me to

6:01

kind of, well I guess the

6:03

last couple of years, but two different groups of people coming out as

6:05

pansexual or bisexual depending

6:08

on who I'm talking to, was super

6:10

important. But kind of to be able to

6:12

then move to a place where it doesn't matter.

6:14

Like it was almost like I came to these

6:16

identifiers for myself and then after that

6:18

that was enough. Like now, I also kind of don't

6:21

care what people, not that I don't care what people think

6:23

of me, but it's like, yeah, I don't know.

6:25

I would rather them get to know me through experience

6:27

than needing to like, I dunno, put

6:29

up a big identifier or something

6:31

.

6:32

What's pansexual?

6:33

Pansexual. Pansexual.

6:35

I hope I can describe this correctly. So I mean

6:37

if you look at bisexual by

6:40

being two, it's looking at like the

6:42

gender-binary thing and so

6:44

it's like, okay, I'm attracted to men or women.

6:46

So gender is still kind of like the defining

6:49

feature of your orientation. Pansexual

6:51

is moving towards... More towards,

6:54

I mean you , you definitely can still be into

6:56

men or women, but it's moving

6:58

more towards the idea that I'm actually just attracted

7:00

to a person in the moment. And they could be a man, they

7:02

could be a woman, they could be like whatever

7:05

or whatever. Yeah. That however they identify

7:08

is not like a prerequisite necessarily

7:11

to us having some sort of connection.

7:13

So it just for me

7:15

kind of removes that. And I mean, I

7:18

think thus far I've only been into men

7:20

or women. I don't, as far as I know have

7:22

been into someone who's non-binary. But

7:24

it's less about that and more just

7:26

about like being into people in a moment.

7:29

And relationships are so fluid

7:31

and so sometimes it's sexual romantic, sometimes it's

7:33

not.

7:33

It's interesting, I feel like the word bisexual

7:36

feels like it has a connotation

7:39

of like objectification, like

7:42

which is, and I hope nobody

7:44

finds that offensive but like it's,

7:46

you know, I think, I think it's been objectified

7:49

by our patriarchal culture.

7:51

You know, like Oh I hope that peopl don't find that offensive...So like

7:59

bisexual seems, yeah,

8:01

there's something about it. The split of the two.

8:04

I know a lot of people who identify

8:06

as queer and they're in straight

8:08

relationships and

8:11

yeah, I sometimes wonder or maybe

8:13

you know - I need to do more research and talk to people,

8:15

but like about like identifying as

8:18

queer as sort of a political stance.

8:20

Like to, to like not have a

8:22

straight, like I'm in a straight relationship,

8:25

but like not having that then

8:27

that mean that you're straight. Yeah.

8:29

Yeah. I think it definitely could

8:31

be for some people... Like queer

8:34

as far as I understand that word and as far as I

8:36

use that word is that it's, it's flexible

8:39

according to the person using it.

8:41

And so to really understand what that definition

8:44

means for that person is to get to know that person,

8:47

Which is sort of like the whole fucking point.

8:49

Yeah, exactly. Totally.

8:52

And I love that. I'm this, I'm that.

8:55

Um , and I know that for some people the

8:57

word queer is like very empowering and very

8:59

helpful.

9:00

Yeah.

9:01

And I studied

9:03

Buddhism for a while and

9:07

there's , you know, a range of teachings that

9:09

eventually leads to like the emptiness teaching,

9:12

which you have to wait a really long time

9:14

to get there. So I never got there, but they would talk about

9:16

it like eventually emptiness is the

9:18

final teaching. And I remember there

9:20

was like so much definitions happening

9:23

in defining anger, to defining emotion, to defining

9:25

qualities of mind. And

9:28

what did you with how to interact

9:31

with your anger, how to banish it from

9:33

your experience, blah, blah, blah. But

9:36

then a teacher saying to me, but

9:38

at the end there are no

9:40

categories like we are, we're putting everything

9:42

into like all these different categories. But

9:44

then the final teaching is there are no categories.

9:47

And I was like, okay, I'm really

9:49

doing all this category work here. And

9:52

I feel like we are kind of

9:54

doing that as a culture. You know ? Like we're , we're

9:56

trying to expand the categories in

9:58

order to break them open.

10:00

Yeah, I love that you say that because actually

10:02

in a way I've used

10:05

like, I use the word spirituality in the

10:07

podcast because I'm obsessed with this

10:09

word right now. It's a fascinating

10:11

word just for my own personal journey because

10:14

for me, moving away from categorization

10:17

and certainty in religion and

10:19

obsession with certainty and

10:21

moving away from that more and more and more

10:24

into this realm of like unknown and I would

10:26

say forms of unity and but

10:28

still holding this like mystery. I'm

10:31

still very much

10:33

into the spiritual realm.

10:36

Even when I move away from the religious

10:38

growing up, I was kind of taught like, you know, if you're not

10:40

into this way of seeing

10:43

a certain form of truth, then you're not

10:45

actually spiritual. And so when I meet other

10:47

people who kind of, I don't know are, also

10:49

on this journey of just understanding what is,

10:51

what is the spiritual realm. And so

10:53

many people seem to be

10:56

moving away from defined

10:58

understandings of that, but still

11:00

are , I dunno , open to it, seeking it.

11:03

And so I just like understanding different

11:05

people's perspectives or being like open

11:07

along that journey because it's different I think

11:09

for everybody. But I recently

11:11

started listening to an Alan

11:14

Watts talk. Do you know who Alan

11:16

Watts is? I actually don't even really know

11:18

if I could describe him for the sake

11:20

of the podcast, but I'll just say Alan Watts look him up.

11:24

If you don't know him. You should. He's a white

11:27

guy.

11:29

This particular one was looking

11:33

at the religion of no religion.

11:35

I mean, I just hear that and I'm like, yeah, I get it.

11:37

Yeah, but just going

11:39

to what you were talking about he really started to

11:41

explain to me and break it down. Yeah,

11:43

the idea of what did he call

11:45

it? I think it was like multiplicity and

11:48

unity and and

11:50

I mean he was trying to - I think - explain Unity but

11:53

also trying to say that like the

11:56

ideal is to actually find the balance

11:59

within that, so like to

12:01

understand multiplicity like the world

12:03

being all these separate

12:05

independent and equal pieces that

12:07

are all functioning together but

12:10

then also understanding... How they all function

12:12

together but not staying there

12:14

in that unity. Like actually being able to

12:16

function between those two

12:18

worlds being like the ultimate goal

12:21

as opposed to like one being enlightenment and one

12:23

being more like logical and ideal,

12:26

which I kind of thought was pretty fascinating.

12:29

When did you study Buddhism?

12:30

I started in undergraduate diversity. I

12:32

used to bike from Conrad

12:34

Grebel where my Mennonite

12:36

residence was, I'm not a Mennonite, but I

12:39

was attracted to the spiritual community there . So I'd bike from

12:41

there every Monday night to the Kitchener public

12:44

library for a class with this

12:46

teacher named Kundun . She

12:48

was a Buddhist nun and

12:52

I, Oh my gosh,

12:54

was so effected by

12:56

the classes. They were maybe

12:59

an hour and a bit and she

13:01

would talk for maybe

13:04

half an hour to 45 minutes. We would meditate for like 15

13:06

minutes and then we would have like a closing. And

13:10

I remember I kind of had this challenge to

13:12

myself to not take any

13:14

notes to see how much I could retain,

13:16

just wait listening.

13:18

Wow.

13:18

And so , um, and it was amazing.

13:20

I actually felt like I listened in this totally

13:22

different way and that was sort of my, my

13:24

practice. Like how do I retain this

13:26

and try to understand it , um,

13:29

rather than capture it on paper.

13:31

And the teachings were so

13:34

useful to me. I felt like

13:37

I had been up until that

13:39

point in my life, you know, naming qualities.

13:41

Like I want to be more patient or I want to be more

13:43

this. And I would write about that

13:45

in my journal or whatever, but I didn't have any specific

13:49

way to do that. And

13:52

the these classes and talks gave

13:54

me these like very specific strategies, some

13:56

of which were like part of meditation, but a

13:58

lot of them are just like in your day to day life

14:00

. So I remember one

14:02

of the practices was,

14:05

or one of the main teachings was about working

14:07

on the quality of self cherishing, which is like

14:10

putting yourself first.

14:12

Don't like don't do that?

14:14

No, but it's like it's, it

14:16

was so interesting. Um, cause like

14:19

it's not like don't set

14:21

your own boundaries and take care of yourself and blah, blah blah. But it

14:23

was more like when we orient

14:25

to the world with ourselves at the forefront,

14:28

we have a different experience than when we orient to the world

14:30

with love for others at the forefront.

14:33

So it was a challenging

14:36

teaching and brain melting

14:39

fuck to like think about it. But I remember

14:41

the practice that was offered was to

14:44

like, when you meet any person,

14:46

like say in your mind, like, "may you

14:48

be happy," like, like

14:51

to just focus on the other person's happiness,

14:54

health experience.

14:55

Wow.

14:56

And I remember people really challenging

14:58

the teacher and being like, but you know, we need

15:01

to take care of ourselves in blah, blah blah, and what do you mean? And I remember

15:03

her just saying like, okay, I'm like, have

15:05

you ever tried not doing that and what ? What

15:07

would happen? And I remember being like,

15:09

okay, all right, all right, I'm going to try this.

15:12

And I remember walking around

15:14

the university campus and

15:16

my residence and like every person

15:18

I saw trying to say in my mind

15:21

like "may you be happy" and

15:23

iy totally changed

15:25

things like.

15:26

Wow.

15:26

And it changed my social anxiety

15:28

in a huge way. Like, because I was know if

15:30

I was in a social situation, I was no longer just

15:32

thinking about how do I look, how do

15:35

I seem? Am I funny? Am I this?

15:38

But instead I was just focusing

15:40

on other people's happiness.

15:42

And so it's like my focus

15:45

on myself softened. I became

15:47

happier because I wasn't thinking about

15:49

myself so strongly. And I also

15:51

feel like in a way, I used

15:54

- not used - Buddhism, but I felt like

15:56

I hung onto Buddhism at that point in my life

15:59

in order to , to be, I

16:01

kind of like neutered myself a little bit

16:03

because I was afraid of sexuality

16:05

or not afraid of sexuality. I was challenged

16:08

by or felt

16:10

insecure. And so it was like, I'll just

16:13

be like , I thought I'll just become a Buddhist

16:15

nun because then I don't have to worry about

16:17

the power of that connection or , or,

16:20

yeah. Or like I don't have

16:22

to think about getting married or whatever.

16:24

I'll just be a , be a nun,

16:26

cause you know, you can be so happy thinking about

16:29

the happiness of other people and I'm like, and I

16:32

was like a virgin at that time and like just,

16:35

yeah . You know, convinced that I wouldn't

16:37

ever have sex or so.

16:40

What changed that ?

16:42

Um , sex eventually.

16:46

Okay. No longer a nun.

16:46

Yeah, no, I,

16:49

well, so that was like my

16:51

first year or two years

16:53

I was at university. I was like still studying

16:55

that and I worked it into my

16:58

independent studies degree, like kind

17:00

of bringing it into contemplative education,

17:03

which is an alternative education

17:05

sort of that I was studying.

17:06

Cool.

17:07

And then in my third year I went away to

17:10

do some semesters abroad and one of them was that an

17:13

eco village in Scotland called Findhorn. Findhorn

17:16

foundation.

17:17

Oh yeah.

17:17

It's like a spiritual Mecca

17:19

for a lot of people.

17:21

Wow.

17:21

Like they talked to garden spirits

17:23

and nature gnomes and pan

17:26

and blah blah .

17:27

Is that Celtic or

17:29

no? It's more like intentional communities.

17:33

Yeah, not really free love. Like that's,

17:35

that is kind of an ethos of a lot of eco villages.

17:37

But I went to Findhorn I was still like really

17:39

into Buddhism. There was actually like a Buddhist

17:42

temple across the street and I would go there for like

17:45

the early morning meditation and

17:49

there was a guy in my group who

17:51

eventually became my first

17:54

lover. And like right up until

17:57

it all happened, like I

18:00

was like, we're just gonna , we're going to be good friends.

18:02

Cause I just put myself in the friend zone with

18:04

like every man that I

18:06

was attracted to. Yeah,

18:08

it's actually a great story, do you want to hear it?

18:09

I want to hear it.

18:10

So his name was Kyle and he was this

18:12

like beautiful...

18:15

He kind of had... His face like reminds me of a horse,

18:17

like with this like a kind of like broad

18:20

nose and face a horse/Lion.

18:24

We're really.

18:24

On a side note last

18:29

night, Emma and I watched Lion King.

18:29

Yeah. It's interesting because

18:32

the story also includes my friend Emily. So

18:34

Emily was in the group as well

18:37

and so our student

18:39

group in Scotland and

18:41

Emily like within two days or three

18:43

days said to me like, Oh my God,

18:46

I have like such a crush on Kyle. And as soon as she did I

18:50

was like, as soon as she said that, I mean Kyle

18:52

was super hot. I was like, oh,

18:54

okay. Like I'm going to just assume

18:56

that you're going to get in there.

18:58

Right. I'm good .

18:58

I went on and put myself

19:00

in the friend zone and support you.

19:02

Totally.

19:03

Within a few more days than that. She was like, oh, I

19:05

talked to him and he's like, so not

19:08

into me. Like he's

19:10

like he - they were roommates. They're like,

19:12

cause we were in these little cabins and he

19:14

was like, they're basically like male and female

19:16

versions of each other. And he was like

19:18

, um , I really like you, but like I

19:20

don't think that that's going to happen. And she was like, okay,

19:23

but still like really pining after him. This went

19:25

on for like another five or six

19:27

weeks. We were there for 12 or 14 weeks total.

19:30

So halfway through. And we

19:33

eventually, at some point we

19:35

were, we were all like sleeping

19:37

in the same room. Kyle and I were sleeping

19:40

on the couch and Emily was sleeping on the floor

19:43

and Kyle and I were just like

19:45

sharing the couch in a friendly way because

19:47

I had completely put myself in

19:49

that experience. And

19:51

then we woke up really early

19:54

in the morning and he and I were like, our faces were really close

19:56

and we started to talk quietly and

19:59

then it became apparent that there

20:01

was like this feeling and this

20:03

energy and

20:05

I think we kissed. Okay. And

20:08

I was like,

20:09

And had you ever kissed before or was that all new also?

20:11

I had kissed, yeah, I've made out with people

20:14

in high school and different experiences, but like nothing

20:16

that was meaningful. So I almost felt like I hadn't

20:18

kissed anybody cause they'd all been like sloppy

20:21

drunk make outs that you regret

20:23

the next day. So

20:26

we kissed. But I actually was like, not

20:28

sure if Emily was awake or if she could hear

20:30

us. And then an alarm went

20:32

off and Emily sprung up. One was like, okay, let's

20:35

get going. And I was like, was she awake? Like

20:37

I, Whoa, did you hear all

20:39

of that? And I was like, Oh my God, did

20:41

I betray her? Like yeah,

20:43

I'm going to be upset. And we were doing a bunch

20:45

of like work in the garden day. And so we were like

20:48

doing that. And I never got a chance

20:50

to talk to her. It was like a really busy day. And then

20:52

our group ended up having this like talent

20:55

show and she was like, I wrote a poem and

20:57

she like read this poem and talked

21:00

about each member of our group. And the line about

21:02

me was like an Emma who would never tell

21:04

a lie. I was like, Oh

21:06

my God, she totally heard us

21:08

and like, what is going on? And then she kind of disappeared

21:11

that night and they didn't know where she couldn't find

21:13

her to talk to her. And I was like, Oh my God.

21:15

So then finally the next day , um,

21:18

we ended up like being in totally different cabins.

21:20

And then the next day , um,

21:23

I like found her in the garden and I ran

21:25

up to her and I was like, Emily. And she

21:27

was holding a Pitchfork and a bucket

21:29

and she was, she came towards me and she was like, I

21:32

know I'm free. And I was like,

21:34

what? And she was like, it

21:36

was never about me, it was never going to be

21:38

me and Kyle and I was just like focusing

21:40

on that because my dad's dying and I just needed

21:42

something to focus on. And she said,

21:44

and as soon as I heard you guys talking,

21:47

I knew like that's what's real, that's

21:49

what needs to happen and I know that you,

21:52

you're lying. Because like literally I listened

21:54

to her talk about like how much she liked him

21:56

for like six weeks.

21:58

Wow.

21:58

And she was like, I know you weren't lying to

22:00

me that whole time. I know that you weren't sitting

22:02

there like I have designs on Kyle. She

22:05

was like, I just know that that's what's supposed to happen.

22:08

Amazing.

22:09

Yeah. And I was so glad

22:11

and I was like, okay, so your poem was like actually

22:13

true. And

22:17

we've like stayed super close. Or

22:20

when I think back on that, I think about

22:22

trust between women when

22:24

it comes to relationships

22:26

with men.

22:27

and not like this defensiveness pitted

22:29

against each other kind of thing. Yeah.

22:31

Yeah. And I was so like

22:34

happy that she

22:36

could see and remember her

22:38

true experience of me in that

22:41

instead of,

22:42

And pretty fresh in the moment. Like that's

22:44

super wise I think to be able to

22:47

pick up on that.

22:48

Yeah.

22:48

So you ended up sleeping with Kyle?

22:50

Yeah. So it was like all super

22:52

new to me. Um, and actually

22:55

it , there's, it's a complicated story, but, so

22:58

he had been with another person,

23:00

a girlfriend for a few years and she was in

23:02

Ireland , um,

23:04

on an exchange program, but they broke up like two

23:07

weeks after or like a week after we all

23:09

got started the program.

23:10

Oh wow. So fresh.

23:12

So, but then right after Kyle

23:14

and I first had our, our kiss

23:17

and other , um, experiences

23:19

, um , we hadn't slept together yet. She

23:21

came to visit and so

23:24

we decided to,

23:26

to just stop because she was coming to visit

23:29

and he didn't, he just still had feelings for

23:31

her. And I was like, I want you to have feelings legitimate

23:34

like that you've been with for two years. And

23:36

it was so funny because all a lot of

23:38

the other women in the group were like, Emma, like, aren't you

23:41

like jealous? She's here and like upset.

23:43

And I was like, no, like I don't want to turn

23:45

off his feelings for

23:47

her. And

23:49

then she, she was only there for a few days and then she

23:51

went back to Ireland and then another

23:55

week later he and I were like, okay,

23:58

yeah , this makes sense now.

23:59

Wow.

24:00

After he'd got some like did whatever he did, he

24:02

kind of like, I think they kind of completed their

24:05

, um , whenever they needed.

24:07

Yeah.

24:07

So

24:08

Wow. That's, that sounds like a beautiful, healthy

24:10

context to have your first time in as like

24:13

supportive. You can talk things through.

24:15

Yeah.

24:17

What, how old were you?

24:18

I was 23 yeah. It's

24:21

funny too because like we'd done like,

24:23

I was a Virgin and I was 23 and we

24:26

in my group the night before,

24:28

kind of like the night before, Kyle and I kissed, we had this like game

24:30

or whatever and it was like, at what age did you lose

24:33

your virginity? And I was like, still haven't, I'm

24:35

23 like we had to write it on the

24:37

paper or whatever. So it

24:39

was interesting though cause I feel like it

24:42

was very comfortable and

24:44

not at all awkward. Um,

24:46

unlike some of my friends who lost their virginity

24:49

when they were in their teens. Um,

24:52

there was like maybe more self consciousness and things

24:54

to work through, but I felt like I had worked

24:56

through a lot of my body image

24:59

issues.

25:00

Right. Or like a lot of them.

25:01

I would say I worked through 60%

25:04

of it . Now I

25:09

think I'm like 90%.

25:11

Okay.

25:11

Yeah. But like if I get pregnant and maybe freak

25:14

out about my body changing, I'll go

25:16

down to like, you know, a 60

25:18

again.

25:19

We can do new episodes.

25:20

Yeah. Yeah .

25:20

Great.

25:21

That's so, yeah.

25:23

I also had sex

25:25

like when I was I think like 24 basically

25:27

turning 25 and it's funny

25:30

to me a little bit to look back on because

25:33

for all the criticisms I have

25:35

of like there was I think the

25:37

reasons why it took me that long

25:39

to have sex for the first time. I'm

25:41

super critical of but

25:45

actually like for at least for

25:47

where I've been at every stage of my life,

25:49

I'm glad it happened at that

25:51

point and not sooner because I think if it

25:53

happened sooner given my life and

25:55

my belief systems and the communities that

25:57

I was in and stuff, I think it could have been

26:00

like really a lot harder to work through when

26:02

it actually happens. So that's, yeah,

26:04

I also, but I felt a little bit self conscious

26:07

of that for awhile .

26:08

How I was going to say like far

26:10

past your like religious upbringing were

26:13

you at that point like were you still involved

26:15

in the church or like you're not anymore?

26:17

That's a good question.

26:17

When you kind of declared your different,

26:21

My heathenism.

26:21

...Intention.

26:25

Um Oh also this is kind of fun.

26:27

It happened for this first time right there.

26:29

What do you mean? Like in the next house?

26:31

Like Ahren's street. Do you remember? I lived there

26:33

like,

26:33

Oh in the red house like across

26:36

the street!

26:39

Yeah, that's where I had sex for the first time. It's

26:41

also kind of a funny story. Slash... Like

26:44

slightly fucked but great. How far

26:49

past my religious upbringing... So at that

26:51

point I think I had just,

26:55

so I hadn't left the church yet. I

26:57

was still actually a youth leader and

26:59

leading youth at a church in

27:01

town. So I was still

27:03

in the church formally. But at that point

27:06

had definitely already began to

27:08

come to terms with myself of , I'm actually not

27:10

a Christian anymore, but at that point,

27:12

And I'm going to prove it by fucking

27:15

around.

27:15

Fucking around, but I definitely like,

27:18

I still at that point I think believed in

27:20

some form of like God and

27:23

one being, but I didn't know what that meant. And

27:25

actually I had wanted to have sex

27:27

for a long time, penetrative sex. But I think, I

27:30

think I was, and this was good of me for myself

27:32

because I can be a sensitive person. It

27:34

was good to me to realize I needed that. I

27:36

knew that, I knew that once it happened

27:38

I would go wild. Like,

27:41

you know, like I , I knew once the first time

27:43

happens, fine, I'll , I'll experiment.

27:45

But I needed that first time to be sacred and then the

27:47

floodgates are open!

27:49

But I needed the one time to be healthy.

27:51

I needed it to be with a good person who

27:53

I trusted. I didn't need to be with them for the , like,

27:56

it was a very like particular moment that I was looking

27:58

for it . And it actually, I was ready for probably like

28:00

two or three years.

28:03

Yeah. Go crazy.

28:03

Yeah. I grew up in hardcore purity

28:05

culture and I internalize that super

28:07

deeply. And um , even though

28:09

I had come out intellectually, I had so

28:12

many like bodily mental, emotional

28:14

instincts that are just like needed care.

28:17

So the first person that I did it with was

28:19

my boyfriend at the time, actually. It was so, it was kind of

28:21

funny. It was like spring when

28:23

I met him and

28:25

we both worked for this organization

28:28

that was quite large, but kind of like every so

28:30

often had these trainings where you kind

28:32

of met up with people and did trainings. So we

28:34

had never worked together but worked for the same organization.

28:37

And the way that we met was we were randomly

28:39

paired up and we did this exercise

28:41

where, so we were working with people who had

28:43

mental and physical special needs

28:46

and we were paired across

28:48

from each other. Everyone was in a line facing

28:50

each other and slowly we're meant to walk towards

28:52

each other and stop when you feel uncomfortable

28:55

and then stare into each other's eyes

28:57

for a very long time. Um

28:59

, but kind of like only stop when you feel

29:02

like can they keep walking towards, you know,

29:04

like when they sense you stop , then you have to stop.

29:07

So it's about trying to like read something else where all

29:09

this connection, these things. And

29:11

it was crazy because we just like stared

29:13

at each other for so long. We got really close

29:15

and I was like, Oh my God. So we got really

29:17

close and then I think it was still a

29:20

couple of months later that we met again at

29:22

The Working Centre and whatever

29:24

kind of like I got his contact, we

29:26

got together, I think he was

29:28

seven years older than me. And so in my head I was thinking

29:31

great, like he's definitely not a Virgin.

29:33

He definitely wants to have sex. I definitely

29:36

want to have sex, it's going to be great. And

29:38

then we are just sitting down again over there,

29:40

this happened different day, but at this house across

29:42

the street in the backyard, we had just

29:44

gone to the market and we get talking

29:46

about religion and he

29:49

uh , he was Baha'i at the time, that was

29:51

very new for me and like the

29:53

Baha'i faith is still considered, it's considered

29:55

one of the major religions I think it's like

29:57

a monotheistic religion,

30:00

but it's kind of, it sees itself as

30:02

the final - I think

30:04

it's about how Bahá'u'lláh like the final prophet of all the prophets. So

30:08

like Muhammad and Jesus and Moses

30:10

and everyone is just kind of like all leading

30:12

towards the same faith. And looking at the same

30:14

truth, but at least in a monotheistic way with

30:17

one God. So it's like trying to unify

30:19

all the major religions of the world

30:21

but still seeing one God. So actually

30:23

at the time I was like, wow, that actually sounds

30:25

really cool. The more I got into

30:28

it and I went to like prayer circles with him and

30:30

stuff. We both like went to each other's faith groups and

30:32

stuff, which was quite awesome. Like we were both very

30:34

open. But the more

30:36

I got into it, it still seems quite patriarchal

30:38

to me and like closed in a way that I wanted to move

30:40

away from. But anyway,

30:43

I was excited. But then it was funny because as

30:45

we started to get physical again

30:47

in my like,

30:48

No actually he's a Virgin.

30:49

Yeah. He said, well he had had

30:51

sex before, but he was like, I wanna - I

30:53

recommitted myself to like save myself for

30:55

marriage. Like that's what I want. So then in my head

30:57

I literally start going down the road of like,

31:00

so do I want to marry this guy? Like , cause I was like,

31:02

shit. I

31:04

mean at that point I was still kind of actually like,

31:06

marriage is something that I will really, really want

31:08

and whatever.

31:09

I feel like there's all this undue

31:12

pressure on marriage - to wait for marriage.

31:13

Oh my God, yes. But anyway,

31:16

yes, exactly. And then... That's how I feel now.

31:18

But at the time that actually still fit into my framework

31:20

of the world I guess. And.. But I still

31:22

really wanted to have sex and he knew that and whatever.

31:24

There was this one, there was these moments where,

31:27

I mean obviously it was like quite tempting.

31:29

We w ere moving towards that and so he knew I really wanted to,

31:31

but I didn't want to pressure him but I was still k inda like

31:33

teasing him into it. And it's funny cause like when I look back

31:35

on it sometimes I'm like this the double standard

31:38

there of like if this happened i n a reverse situation,

31:40

would I be like, was t hat pressuring too

31:42

much? You know, to like have sex. But anyway,

31:44

But the power dynamic is different. So.

31:46

Totally different. Yeah. Like we eventually

31:49

did, we did have sex and it was, it

31:51

was actually a really beautiful night and he really wanted

31:53

to, and it was like, I remember

31:55

it was just like pouring rain, like thunder outside.

31:58

I had like so many fucking twinkle lights

32:00

in my room. You know, it was this kind

32:02

of room with like tall ceilings and big windows

32:04

and Ben Howard was playing in the backyard. I was

32:06

like yeah and like so

32:09

safe and comfortable and

32:11

supported and talked through which

32:13

was wonderful. And actually it was funny because I remember

32:15

the next morning like walking down the street being

32:17

like everything is the same.

32:20

Like that was the bigger thing cause I had been raised my

32:22

whole life to be like, you know like it's this

32:24

pinnacle thing and I was like everything's a fucking

32:27

same or like.

32:27

Now that I'm going to hell.

32:30

Will everyone know... But here's the

32:32

twist on the story. So the funny

32:34

thing of that relationship, it was another six months

32:36

relationship at least from like when we were like boyfriend,

32:39

girlfriend and

32:41

this guy was considered, actually I will say his name

32:43

cause at this point I don't fucking care about his reputation. So

32:48

um , his name is Gregg, but we would call him nice

32:50

Gregg because he was so nice and

32:52

it was like this exciting thing for me because before

32:55

that most of the people that

32:57

I had been in relationships with or attracted to

32:59

were people that were not necessarily healthy

33:01

for me. And so it was like really

33:03

exciting. Like yay. I mean a like nice guy

33:06

and like whatever . And we ended

33:08

up breaking up, I broke up with him. There was

33:10

like mental health issues going on that weren't great, but

33:12

it was fine. I kind of looked back on that relationship

33:14

being like, okay, I did it at the right time for

33:16

me and I think it worked out for both of us

33:18

and he was nice guy, whatever moved on.

33:21

And then four years later, this

33:24

was, yeah , I guess a year and a half ago maybe,

33:26

I'm in Egypt and I

33:28

get this Facebook message out

33:30

of the blue from a woman I've never met before.

33:33

She has this long message

33:35

and she- talking about like this

33:37

toxicity among women as well. Like it's just like

33:39

that's a whole interesting, I think part

33:42

of this conversation - she messages me and she's

33:44

like, Hey, I've been meaning to reach

33:46

out to you for like the past four years... Um, I'm

33:49

really sorry it's t aken this long. U

33:51

m, and she goes on to talk about how

33:53

she was Gregg's girlfriend

33:55

the entire time that I was with him. She

33:57

was with him for two years and I was t he six

34:00

months within that time and

34:02

I had no idea. And him and I

34:04

spent quite a lot of time together and

34:06

I believed her right off the bat. Like, and

34:08

actually her hesitation with reaching out

34:10

to me was because he would,

34:13

she knew about me because he told her

34:15

and he would like, I guess from the sounds

34:18

of it like kind of

34:21

let her compare herself to me like an image

34:23

of who I was. And then she just had me on social media,

34:25

which we all know is just like the best versions

34:28

of who we want to ourselves to be. Not necessarily

34:30

like the real us. And she was manipulated

34:33

and then carried through like comparing herself

34:35

to b e in a really unhealthy way. And it took her like a long

34:37

time and apparently he was like super manipulative

34:40

to her, which at the time I w ould've been able to see.

34:42

But now looking back on it I can totally see.

34:44

And even things like, and this is, this is

34:46

so crazy. So he, at the time

34:49

I was, it was kind of weird but I just like he

34:51

kind of, he was really wrestling with moral things

34:54

all the time, like morality

34:56

and trying to be the really good person and actually

34:58

get a lot of depression around just like never feeling

35:00

like a good enough person but also

35:02

kind of like, I don't know, there was a weird sense of entitlement

35:04

and pride kind of and she

35:06

would have, she said that she would have to talk him down - there

35:09

were like a few big moments where she had to

35:11

talk him down from believing that he

35:13

was the next Baha'i p rophet.

35:15

Okay.

35:15

Which is like so wild but I think

35:18

like it was so crazy to me because

35:21

I'm glad she told me at a time in my life where this wouldn't

35:23

have scarred me. Like if it was fresh

35:25

after I would have been really, really, I had , I've already

35:27

been dealing with trust issues. Like I would have been like

35:29

what? Especially with it being my first time and stuff,

35:32

but luckily now I can kind of look at it very much

35:34

at like an arms length. Pretty sure he was

35:36

like some of narcissist.

35:39

Yeah,

35:39

But wild .

35:41

I mean that's... The the

35:43

dipping between, am I a prophet

35:45

, am I worthy? Sounds a bit

35:47

like bipolar.

35:50

Yeah. Something going on in terms of mental health definitely.

35:53

But anyway, that's my first time story. But

35:55

after him I had many, many

35:57

a good experience.

36:02

Many many...

36:02

Okay. What did you want to talk about?

36:03

Well I want it to kind of be like, tell me about

36:05

your best time or like

36:08

what's like the most memorable sexual experiences?

36:10

But then I also was like, I , but I think

36:13

this is because I think also like definitions

36:15

of what makes a great time and how we view that

36:18

has also changed over my life. It's still changing.

36:21

Let's talk about that .

36:22

Okay. So kind of a

36:24

, I had an ex, I

36:26

would say had a six

36:28

week, very intense love

36:30

affair with this person. This

36:33

was six or seven years

36:35

ago now and

36:38

I met them at a party. I'd never

36:40

taken anyone home the

36:42

night of, and took them home. And

36:46

it wasn't that night that was really significant.

36:48

It was... So basically we,

36:51

we met, had this incredible connection

36:54

and he, at the time I was living in this household

36:56

that was practicing,

36:59

relating, trying to relate in new

37:01

ways or trying to relate in a way - in

37:03

ways that superseded

37:05

our cultural programming. And

37:08

sometimes it was called humidity three like

37:10

if we grew up in humidity two, we're

37:12

moving to humidity three, how do we create

37:15

practices in ourselves and as communities

37:17

to like move into that new place

37:19

in , uh , a culture that takes care of

37:21

the earth, that takes care of each other, that is

37:24

different as you know.

37:25

Yeah.

37:25

So I lived in a house for five years and

37:28

when I, he was super

37:31

connected to and interested in

37:33

this house that I lived in and in the ideas

37:35

and I would tell him about them. And he was, yeah,

37:38

he was very excited about , he was super

37:40

mentally agile. We had

37:42

these incredible conversations about what we can , what

37:45

can we be as people, what can culture be? So

37:48

that was a huge aspect of the attraction

37:50

as well as he was just like a, he

37:52

was this like curly haired kind

37:55

of fireball. Like I was so unbelievably

37:58

attracted to him yeah. And a

38:01

few weeks, like three weeks into it, he's

38:03

going to his brother's wedding. I

38:05

haven't heard from him in like a day or two, which

38:07

is a little bit odd for him. And

38:09

I have a dream that he

38:11

standing in front of me and he says Emma,

38:14

I met somebody else and I woke

38:16

up out of my sleep.

38:18

Whoa.

38:18

And I have only done that two times in my life and

38:21

they were both kind of like prophetic times. And

38:24

so I was like, okay. And I've been having

38:26

anxiety cause he hadn't been responding

38:28

to me.

38:29

Something in your intuition was like behaviors changed

38:31

or something.

38:32

Right. So then it was like another

38:34

week before I saw him and he was, he took him a while

38:36

to get back to me and I was like, yeah, yeah. Sorry.

38:38

Did you message him after that dream or.

38:40

No, I like, I was like, I'll

38:42

just talk to him in person. So it took him a while and

38:44

then when I saw him, he was jittery and I was

38:46

like, okay. And

38:49

finally we are sitting on

38:51

the roof of his house and

38:53

he turns to me and he says,

38:56

am I met somebody at my

38:59

brother's wedding. And I said,

39:01

I know I had a dream about it. And I said,

39:04

that must have been really hard for you to tell me that.

39:07

And he was so

39:09

surprised that that was my response. My

39:12

response was, that must have been really hard for you to tell me

39:14

like.

39:15

And not like immediately defensive, what are you doing

39:17

to me? What are you.

39:18

Yeah. And like it just, everything

39:20

opened up and he was just like, how

39:23

did you do that? And I was like, I

39:27

don't know . I just was

39:29

thinking about, I

39:31

had this dream last week, I've been thinking about it

39:34

for a week. And I anticipated

39:36

that as a possibility. And I didn't

39:38

doubt that we had a connection. So I knew

39:40

that, you know, it was going to be hard for him

39:43

to tell me that. And he told me about, you

39:45

know, I met this person, she's

39:47

my, she was like a

39:49

bridesmaid in my brother's wedding, so she's like friends

39:52

of my brother's wife's friends

39:54

and my brother's wife. She

39:56

fits all of the...She, he said she

39:58

like checks all the boxes for

40:01

like me and also what my family would

40:03

want. And we'd been talking about how checklists

40:05

were... To have checklists

40:07

and partners and how they're kind of bizarre

40:10

because to have a checklist of

40:12

something and a connection that hasn't happened yet

40:15

is like online shopping

40:17

and partnership.

40:19

Is not really about consumerism.

40:21

Yeah. Anyway , so it was just, that

40:23

was an interesting, like notice that he was like,

40:25

she checks all the boxes and I was like, okay. He

40:27

and I had been talking, we hadn't said, let's be

40:30

monogamous, this or that. I, I'd said,

40:32

you know, I wouldn't call myself

40:35

poly-amorous or anything . I , you know, I don't

40:37

use these labels , but

40:39

I like, or , you know, I think

40:41

that relationships are, well

40:43

, it's the relationship that will tell you what they need

40:46

to be at different times.

40:47

Yeah.

40:47

And so, and he was so interested and excited

40:50

about that way of thinking about it because his,

40:52

his past girlfriend who he'd been with for

40:54

like three or four years, had been very

40:56

jealous of his interactions

40:59

with other women. Anyway, so

41:02

we go through this whole

41:04

discussion and talk of this thing and

41:06

we end up making love in this

41:09

like this

41:11

most connected way, like

41:13

wow. And I felt like,

41:16

I remember we both used to wear rings and

41:18

he was like, he like took my rings off

41:20

and he was like, I just don't want anything

41:22

else here.

41:23

Wow.

41:24

And he took his rings off and like, and

41:27

it was, I felt like I was like making

41:29

love to the universe. Like felt like

41:31

there was nothing between us.

41:34

And then the next day he

41:36

was actually getting on a bus to

41:38

go to Ottawa to see her.

41:40

Whoa, Whoa. And,

41:44

and I, how was that?

41:45

It was that was like, and because I felt

41:47

like I'm not opposed

41:49

to you having this connection with her and

41:52

then it kind of all went

41:54

downhill from, like I said, I'm not

41:56

threatened by this and I,

41:58

I don't know what , what open relationships

42:00

look like, but like I just want you to know that I don't

42:03

want you to not have this connection with her

42:06

cause if it cause it , it wasn't just that she checked the

42:08

boxes, there was also a very strong, powerful connection.

42:10

But then he was like confused because his connection

42:12

with me had been so powerful. Anyway, in the

42:15

next several weeks, he was less than communicative. It

42:17

was sad and difficult. And then

42:19

finally when I got a meeting out

42:22

of him, he was like a completely

42:24

different person. Like he just, and

42:26

it was so unattractive. Like.

42:29

Wow.

42:29

I was so attracted to him and

42:31

he said she doesn't want me

42:33

to be with other people and I like, I want

42:36

to be with her and I respect

42:38

her and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay.

42:41

Yeah.

42:41

And you could have told me that like,

42:44

he was just like, he was just like avoiding

42:46

contact with me and not telling me what

42:48

I was just like, all I want is for you to tell me

42:50

what you've chosen.

42:52

Yeah. Just basic communication, what's going on.

42:54

Yeah. Yeah. And um,

42:57

so anyway, that was that

42:59

he ended up moving to Ottawa

43:01

or somewhere to be with her. And

43:04

sadly enough, it wasn't

43:06

until several years later that I ran into

43:09

a woman friend of mine that also knew him

43:12

and she told me that he'd

43:14

ended up cheating on her.

43:15

Wow.

43:16

From this woman and that,

43:18

and she said that he'd been home,

43:21

he'd been back in Waterloo for Christmas

43:23

break or something. She'd seen him in a club

43:25

making out with this woman. And she was like, that's not your

43:27

girlfriend? Did like, did you guys break up? And he

43:30

was like, no, no, what? But you

43:32

know, like, and

43:34

he said something about an open relationship and this friend

43:36

was like, pretty sure that you're not

43:38

in an open relationship. And so what

43:40

I kind of took from that was

43:42

like he, he was

43:45

an incredibly fiery and

43:47

like sexual and connective

43:49

person. Like he connected with people really strongly.

43:52

And he told me even that after

43:54

she told him, you can't be with other people,

43:56

he felt like he came, he was like dull. Like he

43:58

couldn't fully be himself with other people. And

44:01

that's why turned.

44:02

In a way it is actually like legitimate.

44:04

But that's where you communicate that in a different way,

44:07

but you don't deal with it by anyway.

44:08

Yeah. Yeah. But it wasn't , it was interesting

44:11

and sad that like this thing that she wanted,

44:13

which was intimacy with him and by

44:15

saying the only way we can have intimacy is

44:17

for you not to have it with other people. Yeah

44:19

. Then pushed him away.

44:22

He ended up cheating on her and that's

44:24

where there's so much self awareness on her part, but

44:26

also on his part to say I

44:28

also will not be able to function in that like

44:30

, but I think there were so many shame stories for

44:33

him cause he actually said that like, I feel

44:35

like I can't open it. Like, I can't be in

44:37

an open relationship because I feel like I'll just fuck

44:39

everything that moves. Like, cause

44:41

he was like magnetic and

44:43

he was like being afraid of his own power,

44:45

his own like ability to connect with people.

44:48

It was like incredibly sad.

44:52

And we connected over poetry.

44:55

Like I would send him mystic poems,

44:58

it would just blow his mind. Anyway, that

45:00

was, but it was like interesting. I still remember that

45:03

experience of love making because

45:05

it felt enormous. It

45:07

felt like the , you

45:09

know, the sky opened, there

45:11

was nothing but us

45:13

and there wasn't even us. We weren't even there.

45:16

Um ,

45:17

Wow.

45:17

And I am so curious what

45:19

his recollection of that all was like

45:22

no idea.

45:22

Well yeah, I mean, Oh my God,

45:24

there's so many things. If I can just say on

45:26

the one hand just, Oh my God, I have so many thoughts. But

45:29

they're all like in different directions . I have

45:31

every so often I've wondered, especially this year just

45:33

about the

45:35

mind blowing sex. No. Yeah.

49:30

Sometimes like what is that

49:32

crazy power that can sometimes happen

49:34

from certain sexual encounters that

49:37

is like, I mean maybe scientifically

49:40

explainable but we don't always know what exactly that is at this

49:42

point. Connecting kind of thing.

49:45

Like I'm kind of of the mind that like if

49:47

there is really good sex, like it's only really

49:49

good if both people are thinking that otherwise someone

49:51

is totally out like off key

49:53

or something. Like it can't be shitty

49:56

for totally shitty for one person and amazing

49:58

for other another unless they like really don't

50:00

have like social skills or whatever.

50:05

I dunno , why is it that that particular

50:07

time place to people,

50:10

but I don't want to keep having those like beautiful,

50:12

mysterious encounters if it's not leading

50:14

towards this like interesting sense of

50:17

like re like nurturing love and stability

50:19

kind of.

50:19

I feel

50:21

like that's super beautiful and

50:25

it makes me, yeah , it makes me think about

50:28

like, like so often

50:32

we're engaging in sexuality for ourselves

50:35

because it's pleasurable because it's, that's

50:38

it . That's it. Yeah. And

50:43

that there's also this other side of sexuality

50:45

that is the, u

50:49

m, b ringing into the world of other beings

50:52

that, that like p

50:54

iece I 'll d o t o k ind o f remind you to think about

50:56

like, what do you

50:58

want when you're yeah. When

51:00

you might want to enter a space of

51:04

procreation and nurturing.

51:06

Totally. And I think even like,

51:08

and that even said as like a metaphor of creation,

51:11

like I think um, I've

51:13

moved my sexuality more into that sense

51:15

of like, not even necessarily

51:18

if it's going to be another life, which is like definitely

51:22

a beautiful possibility or dream or

51:24

whatever, but, but

51:26

also just like what

51:28

is my intention? Like what am I creating

51:31

with this experience and this other person?

51:33

And um, it took me,

51:35

I think it was really good. I literally had to swing

51:38

the pendulum from

51:40

like Christianity.

51:43

I think for me at least a very fucked

51:45

up notion of like what the

51:48

role of sex in my life I

51:50

needed to go from like the

51:52

no physical contact of sex

51:55

to have a lot of it.

51:57

And which was not always perfect, but I needed

51:59

to like balance that out in

52:02

the last couple of years. It's now been like,

52:05

okay, so now actually I don't

52:07

just want to like encounter everything

52:09

that draws my attention. I

52:12

want to think about like what, what is this experience?

52:14

And it doesn't even necessarily mean like, Oh, we're

52:16

going to be committed by like me having sex with

52:18

you. It's just like, is this

52:21

nurturing to both of us? Even

52:23

if it's a one-night-stand , even if it's like a quickie,

52:26

whatever, like it's just what

52:28

is this? And so then I think, yeah, that kind

52:30

of notion of my sexuality has shifted.

52:33

I'm into it just trying to

52:35

be like pretty

52:37

healthy and nurturing for both

52:40

of us as much as possible, which is not, it

52:42

doesn't always happen that way, but that because

52:44

you can't always control, you know, you can have your intuition

52:47

but you can't always control what those experiences are going to

52:49

be. But um, that's

52:51

been cool for me to kinda like, I

52:53

think I realized my

52:56

Christian upbringing had some good tools in

52:58

terms of sexuality mostly

53:00

a lot that I had to undo. But

53:02

then even when the pendulum swung, I don't think

53:04

for me what I feel are

53:06

at least stereotypical Western values of

53:08

sexuality also didn't give me the tools

53:10

necessarily. Um , and

53:12

then now I'm moving to like a , like,

53:16

then where do I draw my morality? Like , how

53:19

about you? Like where would you draw? Like , I dunno , like

53:21

what you want out of your sexual life. Like

53:23

how you determine what's good for

53:25

you or what you want in your sexuality.

53:29

Like where would you get that from?

53:32

Um , I

53:34

went through a period of dating

53:38

only 22 year olds.

53:41

When you were, how old when

53:43

you were older?

53:44

Um...26 to

53:46

32.

53:50

So I dated a string of 22

53:53

to 23 year olds. And

53:56

um, it was fun. They

53:58

were all very attractive and

54:01

kind of at that time it was low

54:04

commitment. Some of them were like more,

54:07

not serious in terms of like we're going to be life partners,

54:09

but kind of had, you

54:11

know, good communication

54:14

and their own beautiful intensity.

54:17

And I think part of also dating younger

54:20

people was this

54:22

feeling like I'm not going to meet somebody...

54:25

This insecurity. I'm not going to meet somebody my

54:27

age that's going to be my partner. So I'm just going to have fun.

54:32

And that like sexuality

54:34

isn't the only way to be intimate with people. So

54:36

I felt like I had a lot of

54:39

beautiful, intimate friendships with

54:41

a lot of people, even people who'd been

54:43

past, I've been in relationships

54:45

with before, so I didn't

54:47

necessarily feel like I needed

54:50

my sexual relationships to be

54:52

my most intimate relationships

54:57

and part

54:59

like I feel like that was both like great

55:02

and an exploration and

55:04

I learned a lot. And also

55:06

I at the same time was yearning for

55:10

a relationship to go deeper than

55:14

than I had. And like partially it was

55:16

like orgasm had

55:18

not felt that

55:20

attainable with 22

55:22

year olds. And

55:26

partially because they were like more casual relationships,

55:30

right ? They were not as experienced.

55:32

I was like, not

55:36

as like willing

55:38

to advocate for myself or like

55:41

whatever. And I

55:43

remember like having this thought a

55:46

few years ago, like I like, I would like

55:48

to experience my orgasm in different

55:50

ways - or at all.

55:53

And I feel like I need the container

55:55

of a more committed relationship

55:58

for that to happen. And I didn't know

56:01

if that was going to occur.

56:04

So there was kind of like sadness

56:06

and shame around that too.

56:08

Yeah.

56:08

And then, yeah, my

56:10

partner and I've been together for coming

56:13

up to two years and

56:17

from probably about six

56:19

months and it was like, okay, we're

56:21

going to do this. Like, let's have the babies

56:24

and let's do the this life

56:26

thing together. Which was like very

56:28

new and strange. I'd not ever had

56:30

that feeling with anybody right before

56:33

and not at a time in my life where it felt like

56:36

I trusted my self like

56:39

me to have those feelings and to be

56:41

like, this is a, that's

56:43

the decision. Um,

56:47

and I have

56:49

felt like I've

56:52

started to move in that direction of like

56:55

feeling like my experience

56:57

of my sexuality is growing and uh , ebbs

56:59

and flows. Like, right. I think we've

57:02

started to hit that like, Oh, it's

57:05

not as hot as it was in the beginning. Like

57:08

what is this? And as

57:10

we, you know, are getting

57:12

ready to like in the next six months, get pregnant.

57:14

Like that'll also affect everything.

57:19

But with right

57:21

now it feels like the

57:24

need to include other people in our relationship

57:27

is not strong. So

57:29

we're monogamous. It

57:31

was funny, I, we went to

57:33

Burning Man last year, it was my fourth time,

57:35

his first time, and

57:38

it was my suggestion that he spend a few days by

57:40

himself, like, and then come back

57:42

to our shared camp later.

57:45

And while he was out on his own,

57:48

I met this man named Tate

57:51

who I like, like

57:53

just looked into his eyes and was like, Oh my

57:55

God.

57:56

And also side note, I thought you said taint.

57:59

Oh no , no. I was like,

58:02

he was like maybe in his forties this is like

58:05

blue eyes and this beard.

58:08

I met him at this camp where I was charging my phone

58:11

and we just kind of were like, Oh, hi.

58:13

And then he painted my nails and

58:16

then I, all

58:18

of me wanted, not all of me, a large part of me

58:20

wanted to be like, let's go on an adventure, like

58:22

come walk with me. But then I was also like,

58:24

I don't know where this is going to go because I just

58:26

don't even know what these feelings are. Right

58:28

. So I just was like, I'm

58:30

going to go. And he was like, Oh,

58:33

okay. And I left, even though like

58:35

literally no words of an exchange. That's

58:37

just my projection.

58:38

Yeah.

58:40

This moment. And

58:42

I told Jason about it when, when

58:45

he rejoined our camp and he, he was like,

58:48

Oh, I feel so sad that you didn't

58:51

feel like you could like

58:53

see what happened. Um

58:55

, because he, he doesn't have

58:58

really much jealousy or discomfort

59:00

around, like we've talked about being

59:02

with other people. And

59:04

I was like, yeah, I just didn't feel like I

59:06

needed to explore

59:09

that. Like, it was kind of exciting. Um,

59:12

but I didn't need to do it, so it was okay

59:14

. And I also just didn't feel like I needed to complicate

59:17

anything right now.

59:18

Yeah. And the Burn it as it is, is already like

59:21

intense enough.

59:22

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I didn't know

59:24

what he was doing. He'd been in the camp three days.

59:28

Um, so, but, but, but

59:30

just him saying that like, Oh, early

59:32

on in the relationship we talked about being free, like

59:34

freedom being this important

59:36

thing. And I, I

59:38

remember at one point when

59:41

we were talking about the possibility of being with other

59:43

people, there wasn't even really anybody in mind.

59:46

I said to him, you know, I would

59:48

trust myself to

59:50

be with somebody for

59:52

a like connective reason. Like

59:54

not just out of, I just want to fuck people

59:57

and have fun.

59:58

Yeah.

59:58

But I can, I can trust that I

1:00:00

would choose for a real

1:00:03

reason, the importance of being

1:00:05

with somebody. And I said, I think

1:00:08

I could trust you to do that too.

1:00:10

That's cool.

1:00:11

And he, that was

1:00:13

this huge moment

1:00:15

for us, I think. Like he was like, Whoa.

1:00:17

Like, and it brought us a lot closer together.

1:00:21

Yeah. Wow. And

1:00:23

have you had, have you had any moments of jealousy

1:00:26

like at all since then or no?

1:00:30

Um , there hasn't really been anything

1:00:33

or anybody, I'm trying

1:00:35

to think actually it's funny cause

1:00:37

like actually I sometimes , you know what , I do this

1:00:39

thought experiment sometimes, like

1:00:41

does the person want to have a relationship with

1:00:43

me as well? And if they don't,

1:00:46

that's where I would feel uncomfortable.

1:00:48

Yeah. It's really cool to think about.

1:00:51

I've considered jealousy a little bit this

1:00:53

year because every so often I think

1:00:55

I felt, I have two distinguishable

1:00:59

memories of jealousy. It was two different people that

1:01:01

I experienced. And what I realized

1:01:03

in both of those circumstances, well

1:01:06

with the first girl who was with

1:01:08

actually the first guy that I told you with told you about, actually

1:01:11

they weren't together, they just were colleagues

1:01:13

together. And I

1:01:15

just sensed a connection pretty quickly between them. But

1:01:17

it was a connection that I was

1:01:19

assuming and perceiving to be a certain way,

1:01:21

which may or may not have been true. But

1:01:24

I realized pretty quickly that like one

1:01:26

of the reasons why I am jealous of this situation

1:01:29

is because, not necessarily in a

1:01:31

sexual or romantic way, but like I

1:01:33

really admire that woman. And

1:01:36

so I feel threatened by her on the one

1:01:38

sense, but it's actually because I think

1:01:40

she's fucking cool. And so

1:01:42

I, the practice of trying to

1:01:45

get over the jealousy was leaning

1:01:47

into friendship with her and,

1:01:50

and which was like, not always easy but actually

1:01:52

was so beautiful and like it

1:01:54

actually I thought of it when you talked like right

1:01:56

at the beginning about this idea of like

1:01:59

just like women relationships

1:02:01

when it comes to like sexual relationships,

1:02:04

romantic relationships. Like how

1:02:06

do we kind of support each other? And

1:02:09

it was, yeah, it was a really cool exercise

1:02:12

and I w what I realized was that it was not

1:02:14

necessarily indicative of the person or

1:02:16

the people involved or the moment it

1:02:18

was indicative of my interpretation of

1:02:20

a situation and my own maybe insecurities

1:02:23

or work or whatever. And

1:02:25

so trying to like lean into

1:02:27

the friendship, which maybe wouldn't always be possible

1:02:30

with someone I'm jealous of, maybe I don't love them that

1:02:32

much or don't have that much time. I don't want to develop a friendship

1:02:34

but kind of leading into like what's

1:02:37

so great about them then and like looking

1:02:39

at the idea of like, okay wanting them

1:02:41

to be happy also and looking

1:02:43

at like the positives as opposed to seeing them as a threat.

1:02:47

I'm seeing them just as like another human being

1:02:49

and like wanting the best for everybody involved. That

1:02:52

happened recently with someone that I interpreted

1:02:55

a situation and, but it was with someone

1:02:57

who's a really good friend of mine, like a very

1:02:59

good friend of mine and it was shitty actually.

1:03:01

Like I , I don't know how people walk around

1:03:03

with jealousy cause it was so quick jealousy

1:03:05

related to a partner of yours or

1:03:07

while someone I was seeing and, and

1:03:10

they met a very good friend of mine, but

1:03:12

in my mind I kind of was like,

1:03:14

they like each other, they're going to want to be together.

1:03:17

It was this like, very, I'm out, I'm out.

1:03:19

I'm out. Yeah. And it was, it was really funny

1:03:21

because like, I don't think it was entirely

1:03:23

irrational in the sense that they're both beautiful,

1:03:25

wonderful people with a lot in common. Probably

1:03:28

also why they're both really into me. Like, like

1:03:30

do you know, like we all have these very similar commonalities.

1:03:33

We're all kind, loving people, but

1:03:36

it was coming from a place of like maybe

1:03:38

perceiving her as a threat to me

1:03:41

when actually it was like, or I could

1:03:43

perceive this as we all get

1:03:45

along because we're all wonderful people

1:03:48

and we like, and just like leaning into the trust

1:03:50

of like, if I trust both

1:03:52

of those people, which I do, they're

1:03:54

going to communicate to me if there's actually deeper

1:03:56

feelings there. Um , and otherwise

1:03:59

my assumptions that there are, are

1:04:01

my own to deal with and not to like dump

1:04:04

onto them, you know, like , um,

1:04:06

but the toxicity of that is, it's pretty real. Like

1:04:08

I can, it's , it's, it

1:04:10

would be so shitty to live with

1:04:12

those feelings, you know, when you care about a friend

1:04:15

and have those... But a friend. So anyway,

1:04:17

I do kind of envy the people that are like, I don't really

1:04:19

have jealousy.

1:04:20

It's not like I don't have it.

1:04:21

Oh yeah.

1:04:23

You're like , okay, cool.

1:04:26

It's not like I don't have it. Um, I've

1:04:28

definitely had strong feelings

1:04:30

of jealousy for people in

1:04:33

the past. I think the reason I don't have

1:04:35

it as strongly with Jason is

1:04:37

because, because of the trust

1:04:39

that we've grown, like I had more

1:04:41

at the beginning and

1:04:44

then just like seeing how he

1:04:46

has operated and seeing how he like has

1:04:48

consistently shown up

1:04:52

makes me feel like

1:04:54

it like makes the jealousy

1:04:56

irrelevant because the trust is so

1:04:58

strong. Right. Yeah. That makes sense.

1:05:00

Yeah. Hmm . I remember

1:05:02

like, you know, we were talking about

1:05:05

these theoretical conversations about being with other people,

1:05:07

which are important just in terms of,

1:05:10

because thought experiments are helpful

1:05:13

and because even if you don't

1:05:15

act on them, it's like that you

1:05:18

could, or

1:05:20

knowing that there's an option to , that everything can

1:05:22

be talked about.

1:05:23

Yeah.

1:05:23

Basically. Yeah. I can't

1:05:25

remember where I was going with that thought

1:05:28

experiments, talking it through duh

1:05:32

, duh , duh that I used to be jealous. I'm

1:05:34

talking to Jason building the track exercising

1:05:37

like brain , but

1:05:42

it used to be jealous. Oh I have not.

1:05:44

No, not that. I'm not. Okay. It's

1:05:46

okay. I'll come back to it .

1:05:48

I can go off on a tangent and then if we come we can come back to

1:05:50

it . Well in terms of that thought experience

1:05:52

experiment, I think it's really

1:05:54

beautiful because I also, well

1:05:56

a , I think like cognitive behavioral

1:05:59

therapy stuff, you're like training your

1:06:01

brain to think a certain way I think is, is

1:06:03

very powerful and that's like a very tangible way to

1:06:05

like control emotions instinctively. Um,

1:06:08

in reference to free diving where you kind

1:06:10

of like at least in like the general

1:06:12

practice and exercise of it as good an activity,

1:06:15

you're kind of hanging out on a floating buoy

1:06:18

and there's like an anchored line and

1:06:20

to like do the free dive. You kind of

1:06:22

with the snorkel, you just like hang out and basically

1:06:25

don't move and you float in the water and you breathe

1:06:27

deeply and you do these kind of like really slow breathing

1:06:29

exercises, calm your body down, take

1:06:32

one breath when you feel ready to, and then

1:06:34

you do a longer dive. And

1:06:36

what's some freedivers have a suggested

1:06:38

to me, which has been really helpful, is

1:06:41

visualizing the dive

1:06:43

before I do it in my breathe up. And that has

1:06:46

definitely helped, which is really interesting. But

1:06:48

then separate to that, another friend of mine, when

1:06:50

we were actually talking about healthy

1:06:53

relationships and I think we were kind of theorizing

1:06:55

and philosophizing around the idea of like manifestation.

1:06:58

What does that even mean? Um, so

1:07:00

it's not necessarily like if I say I it will come

1:07:02

true or like American dream, if you work towards

1:07:04

it, you know , we'll get it. But more of this idea

1:07:06

of if you practice

1:07:09

doing something and you really visualize

1:07:11

yourself getting there, then you're more able to do it

1:07:13

as it happens and create those situations

1:07:15

as you're able to. But , um,

1:07:17

he talked about, I think like some sort of I'm gonna botch the

1:07:21

exact story, but it was like I think

1:07:23

some sort of experiment that was done. Someone coaching of

1:07:25

like pretty high up there

1:07:27

basketball leagues in the U S and

1:07:30

kind of doing for

1:07:32

an extended period of time coaching

1:07:34

teams that were fairly equal to each other.

1:07:37

One coaching was just like having,

1:07:39

I think like having the team doing that was,

1:07:41

I think it wasn't more like physical,

1:07:44

like actual physical drills and exercises.

1:07:46

And then the other one was

1:07:49

50% being in a room.

1:07:51

But like visualizing and

1:07:54

actually thinking through meditating

1:07:56

on move scenarios. I'm

1:07:58

not talking but actually literally trying

1:08:00

to like visualize and then

1:08:02

some physical drills. And I think the one that did

1:08:04

the visualization was the ones that were by

1:08:07

far most successful, which was super interesting. And

1:08:10

again, I probably botched exactly how that happened, but

1:08:12

it was something to that effect. And

1:08:14

that's been kind of interesting for you to also think

1:08:16

through. And that would be a place that

1:08:18

I'm at I think in my life

1:08:21

and I think in my own healing

1:08:23

process, like , and this is also maybe a different

1:08:25

tangent in some ways, but in

1:08:27

my healing from my own,

1:08:30

probably part of the reason why I'm doing a sexuality

1:08:33

and spirituality podcast is because these are just things

1:08:35

I'm really working out for myself and my life.

1:08:37

And for me it's so important and

1:08:40

I'm trying to practice the manifestation thing

1:08:42

a little bit,

1:08:43

But the , I think that this is such

1:08:45

a fine line because I think

1:08:47

that there are so many ways in which we have projections

1:08:49

of the world that influence

1:08:51

the world. And I think there's also, we can

1:08:53

have intuitions,

1:08:55

But then how do you know?

1:08:55

I know it's like how do you know what

1:08:58

of yourself to trust and what of yourself

1:09:00

to soften?

1:09:05

Because I think that sometimes

1:09:07

we can be naive about

1:09:10

other people's intentions

1:09:12

or capacities

1:09:16

and sometimes we can be naive because we feel

1:09:18

like we should be open. And

1:09:21

I think that in

1:09:23

some other, in some other relationships that I've been

1:09:25

in that were like open more open,

1:09:28

there were certain people

1:09:30

that I said to my partners, like, I don't,

1:09:32

I don't want to be open us to be

1:09:34

open with that person. I don't want you to connect with that person

1:09:37

because I don't trust the way that

1:09:39

they operate and I

1:09:41

don't feel like they

1:09:44

will be as upfront with me and, and,

1:09:46

or you as we as

1:09:49

would benefit us all. And

1:09:51

so, and that happened actually with

1:09:53

Jason, there was like a person that I said,

1:09:56

I don't feel comfortable with you.

1:09:58

Like, and he wasn't really that interested in

1:10:01

pursuing something, but she had kind of

1:10:03

, um, given

1:10:05

him an invitation

1:10:09

and I was like, I don't trust the way that she's

1:10:11

operating. Cause I feel like she's

1:10:14

putting you in on some kind of

1:10:17

pedestal and that thinking

1:10:19

doesn't feel like

1:10:21

it's going to do or , and , and

1:10:24

it's, I could very easily have been like, Oh

1:10:26

Emma , you're just being jealous and protective

1:10:29

and blah , blah , blah . But I, I feel

1:10:31

like I'm getting better at sensing, like

1:10:33

trusting myself and

1:10:35

knowing and checking with other people

1:10:37

who know that person too. Like this

1:10:40

is my sense of them and , and a lot of other people

1:10:42

being like, yeah, actually that's my sense of them to

1:10:44

still being open to the possibility that they

1:10:47

could be different in any

1:10:49

moment could change and grow in

1:10:51

lots of different ways, but also

1:10:53

not discounting that

1:10:56

Yeah.

1:11:01

I mean I think that, so my, my

1:11:03

experience was like, and

1:11:07

the like main message I got was

1:11:09

like unshakable self-love

1:11:12

basically.

1:11:13

Cool.

1:11:14

And once I got that message I was like,

1:11:18

okay. It's like

1:11:20

I'm here, I'm here, I don't need

1:11:22

anybody else to be here.

1:11:25

Cool.

1:11:25

But the like being there for myself

1:11:28

was like powerful and I

1:11:30

think like then very helpful

1:11:32

for as we did work through things when we

1:11:34

did.

1:11:35

Yeah, I do. I do feel grateful and that, I think

1:11:37

the last couple of years, interestingly as well, like

1:11:40

I've lived alone for most of my time in the last,

1:11:42

like while I've been in the middle East from the majority of it,

1:11:45

which is new for me. I've never lived alone before

1:11:48

and it

1:11:51

was like really great for a huge period

1:11:53

of time. And then for like the last like

1:11:55

six months of it, it was like, this is fucking

1:11:58

lonely. Like it's so lonely. Um,

1:12:01

but it made sense for me just like in the different

1:12:03

scenarios to like stay alone based on my schedule and

1:12:05

a whole bunch of other stuff. So I was like,

1:12:07

okay, whatever. But it was so

1:12:09

good in that it's , it helped me,

1:12:12

I mean I've been pretty independent and come to terms

1:12:14

with that for a pretty long time now. I mean, give

1:12:16

or take, like needing to work on that. But it's like

1:12:18

basically been like, you know, I came to terms

1:12:20

with the fact that like I might feel if I

1:12:22

was alone, quote unquote, in terms of

1:12:24

partnership for the rest of my life. I know I would be happy.

1:12:27

Yeah . I might not love it all the time, but I would be fulfilled.

1:12:29

Also you're not going to love partnership all the time

1:12:31

.

1:12:31

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

1:12:34

So just like, but coming to terms with that was

1:12:36

very helpful for me a while ago, but

1:12:39

then really living with myself and living

1:12:41

with myself through loneliness

1:12:43

and through this distance

1:12:46

from someone who may or may not ever be there for me.

1:12:48

And it was just so much

1:12:51

stuff that really made me like really

1:12:53

come into myself in a way that was like,

1:12:55

okay, if this is all I

1:12:57

ever have,

1:12:58

That's exciting.

1:12:59

Yeah. Really good. Like this year was actually

1:13:02

difficult but very good secure

1:13:04

feeling of like, I'll be okay. The

1:13:07

only thing is just like, I don't

1:13:09

want to do that anymore. Like I,

1:13:11

And you got a risk. There's like always gotta

1:13:13

be a risk.

1:13:14

Cause I don't wanna be cold, you know

1:13:16

as well.

1:13:17

Yeah. You can't be like, well I don't want to get

1:13:19

over another person so I'm not gonna and

1:13:21

that's okay.

1:13:21

That's just like also part of life where you sometimes

1:13:24

want things that you just don't get what you want. And I find

1:13:27

that, you know, it

1:13:31

was like , um, no, just like one

1:13:34

thing I'm very grateful for is that I have come to terms with

1:13:36

, I would rather be on

1:13:39

my own and then

1:13:41

in a partnership that's toxic or unhealthy. Whereas

1:13:43

definitely that was not always

1:13:45

true for my life and not always true for

1:13:48

some friends, especially like that I grew up with. I think

1:13:50

like where they're more willing to have that

1:13:52

partner even if it's making both of

1:13:54

you worse people.

1:13:55

Yeah. So I mean

1:13:57

I think this is morbid , but I think a lot

1:13:59

about a lot I think.

1:14:02

I think sometimes about Jason dying

1:14:04

because you know nothing's

1:14:07

for sure. Yeah. I even think

1:14:09

about it in relation to like us having kids.

1:14:11

Like right, we could have a kid and he could die rather

1:14:14

than now. Now

1:14:16

I have a partner and now it's a constant. Yeah,

1:14:22

it's been, I've like had some anxiety about

1:14:25

not like , not tons but like I just

1:14:27

have noticed my anxiety because like

1:14:29

he's been really not communicative

1:14:32

because camp is so busy.

1:14:35

And then when he like tells me what's going on I'm

1:14:37

like, I'm so glad that that's what you're spending

1:14:39

your time doing and not calling me.

1:14:42

Right.

1:14:42

Like he's like we have our first transgender camper

1:14:44

who came out and like they came

1:14:46

as a girl last week and it really wasn't working

1:14:48

and then they came out to the staff and then I

1:14:50

talked to the like children's aid

1:14:52

and their foster mom and I said we can

1:14:54

put them in a boys' cabin. We

1:14:56

have a non-binary counselor. They

1:14:58

really gravitated to the non-binary counselor. They

1:15:01

can be a boy next week and

1:15:04

like advocated for this kid and

1:15:07

maybe the first environment where this kid is going to be able

1:15:09

to like be safe either be themselves

1:15:12

and I'm like great. That's why you

1:15:14

weren't calling me because you were doing that

1:15:16

really important. So like, okay,

1:15:18

that's fine, but

1:15:20

I'm like, you know, I still have my feelings

1:15:23

about like, if you

1:15:25

love me when you want to tell me

1:15:27

things... If you really loved

1:15:29

me, you and you would make it one allow me

1:15:31

all the time.

1:15:33

You're an asshole. Yeah

1:15:35

.

1:15:36

Yeah.

1:15:37

I guess we could probably like say goodbye... on sexuality and

1:15:42

spirituality. Um,

1:15:45

I feel like we should sum it up a little bit.

1:15:47

All tied up in a bow

1:15:54

And wait , I'm going to tell, I'm going to tell a story.

1:15:55

Tell a story.

1:15:56

Okay. So I

1:15:58

feel like a major turning point

1:16:00

for me was actually at Burning Man. And you talked

1:16:03

about , um , and festivals being full

1:16:06

and um,

1:16:09

it actually took me like a year to realize

1:16:11

that this change had taken place.

1:16:13

But basically after,

1:16:16

like after my first Burning Man,

1:16:18

I felt like I came into myself in

1:16:21

this way where

1:16:23

like I realized that I was a babe and

1:16:25

I like hadn't like felt

1:16:29

confident in that before. Like I had gotten over

1:16:31

insecurities of like I was

1:16:33

comfortable with my body. I didn't

1:16:35

think I was ugly. I thought

1:16:37

I was like all sorts of good qualities . I

1:16:39

was like confident in myself. I was like

1:16:42

a professional blah, blah, you know, running

1:16:44

a yoga studio, dah , dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Um,

1:16:48

but then burning man was this like opportunity.

1:16:51

And I think actually it was the context

1:16:53

of being in a place where

1:16:55

sexuality is like represented everywhere.

1:16:59

And yet I didn't

1:17:01

feel objectified and I

1:17:03

didn't feel like other people were objectified.

1:17:06

Totally.

1:17:07

So then I could be

1:17:09

myself and then realize

1:17:11

that myself had these layers

1:17:13

of sensuality and

1:17:15

sexuality that could be expressed through

1:17:18

dancing, through laughing

1:17:21

and joking with people through walking

1:17:23

through adventuring, through anything. Um

1:17:26

, which hadn't felt comfortable to come out

1:17:28

before because I felt

1:17:31

like sexuality, like I would be

1:17:33

objectifying myself or

1:17:36

be in competition with other

1:17:38

women and I always

1:17:40

wanted to take myself out of that competition so

1:17:43

as not to be threatening.

1:17:44

The nun.

1:17:44

Or because I was insecure.

1:17:47

Yeah.

1:17:48

And I like have reflected

1:17:50

a lot on how

1:17:53

I never felt, I mean

1:17:55

I feel like this is also my privilege of

1:17:57

being a woman who's not

1:17:59

experienced sexual assault or like

1:18:02

aggression really. But like I

1:18:04

would, I would be dancing topless

1:18:06

at Burning Man and not feel unsafe

1:18:11

and or like someone who's going

1:18:13

to touch me or come onto me or something. And

1:18:15

I think that that was like this liberating

1:18:17

experience. Even being

1:18:19

somebody who hadn't been aggressed

1:18:21

on before, but it was like

1:18:23

this is a new, but it's like I would

1:18:26

not dance in a sexy way normally

1:18:28

because I was still afraid of that. But there

1:18:30

I wasn't afraid of that. So it's like this whole

1:18:33

new possibility came alive

1:18:35

and it was cool cause like in the year after my first Burning

1:18:37

Man, like my friends are saying to me, who,

1:18:39

who, you know, didn't go there, they're not

1:18:42

burners, but they were like, you're different.

1:18:44

Like there's something different about you. And,

1:18:47

and actually last

1:18:49

year I made that second set of talismans,

1:18:52

so like a bunch of necklaces that have words on them.

1:18:55

And it took me a few months to give all the remaining

1:18:57

ones away. But then

1:18:59

when I finally got mine, the last

1:19:01

one was "Total Babe."

1:19:07

Oh, amazing. That's

1:19:09

fucking cool. Yeah. Those,

1:19:11

those spaces, there's something about, because

1:19:13

the sexuality becomes, then it's

1:19:16

like then you are sexual dancing

1:19:18

for yourself because you don't have to do it for

1:19:20

anyone else or like whether you're doing it for someone

1:19:22

else or to avoid doing it for someone else, you

1:19:25

just do it because, Oh that's

1:19:27

just how I feel.

1:19:27

And just moved to do.

1:19:29

Yeah. And then I think when I dance actually usually

1:19:31

it's pretty sexual but it's super actually

1:19:33

for myself and every so often I'm like,

1:19:35

Oh maybe I look fucking cool right now. But

1:19:38

actually it's really cool cause I kind of don't care. Or

1:19:41

maybe I can revel in it in the moment. But I'm like

1:19:43

this is so just me expressing

1:19:47

what I, this is all for me and

1:19:49

then it's super cool cause it's a , it's taking

1:19:52

this power back because then it's totally now,

1:19:54

if I do want that to be for someone else, it's

1:19:56

coming from a place of, I know it's

1:19:58

from me and still for

1:20:01

me.

1:20:01

Totally.

1:20:02

Totally. It's not just to appease. It's not because

1:20:04

I think you want to see this. It's like this

1:20:06

is who I am.

1:20:07

Like when I like wear... I - some

1:20:09

of my favorite costumes are like pasties and booty shorts.

1:20:13

But it's funny cause like that doesn't actually

1:20:15

feel like it at all translates into my sexual

1:20:18

life. Like I don't feel the same

1:20:20

kind of sexual when I'm with a

1:20:22

partner. Then when I'm wearing

1:20:24

those, I'm not looking to pick

1:20:27

up, I'm not trying to like titillate

1:20:29

anybody. I'm just literally like , but it's not, it's not

1:20:31

a performance. It's like my, it's just self-expression.

1:20:34

So that's what I think is so freeing about context

1:20:37

like that is that sexuality can become

1:20:39

self-expression, which feels

1:20:43

like spirituality. Totally. Bam.

1:20:45

Nailed it. Nailed the podcast.

1:20:49

Sign off.