0:00

Do spirituality and music mix?

0:02

Is music even permissible in Islam?

0:04

What does it mean to be a man that supports

0:06

women? Buckle up on this episode's

0:08

ride following a musician on a journey

0:11

around the world through his creative

0:13

process, while learning how to love and

0:15

leaning into inspiration moved

0:17

by his soul's relationship with God. I

0:19

know - we cover a lot of ground!

0:22

As mentioned on the last episode of Body and

0:24

Wine, Raz is a musician based in The

0:26

Six producing stadium hip hop from the

0:28

heart. His first single "My World"

0:30

from EP set to release this

0:32

month, October, 2019, featured Isam B and reached

0:35

over 100,000 views on YouTube

0:37

and over 65,000 plays on Spotify.

0:40

With some sprinkling of Raz's music. Let's

0:42

you and I - Charlie Gray - explore with

0:44

Raz: today on Body and Wine.... Today's

1:22

podcast was recorded overlooking

1:24

sky high , the traditional territory of many

1:26

nations including the Mississaugas of

1:28

the Credit, the Anishinaabe, the Chippewa

1:30

the Haudenosaunee and the Wyandot peoples

1:33

and is now home to many diverse nations

1:35

in the Inuit and Metis peoples. We also acknowledge

1:38

that Toronto is covered by Treaty 13 with

1:40

the Mississauga's of the Credit. It is here that Raz

1:42

and I dive right into the casual topic

1:44

of masculinity and Islam....

1:50

First thing that comes to mind when I think about sexuality, because

1:52

it's just top of mind I guess, is there's ways

1:54

to be a man and

1:56

the Muslim . There's responsibilities you have

1:58

.Like, I just got married three years ago and

2:01

well first of all, what's the one thing I don't think a lot of people

2:03

know, which I only gathered when I was

2:05

getting ready to get married... was

2:07

that the woman actually chooses the men for the

2:09

head of their household. The man doesn't

2:12

choose the woman. So that's why right

2:14

before the ceremony is done, the woman is taken

2:16

into a room with witnesses who are

2:18

not related to the male and they and

2:20

the scholar and the imam. And then they,

2:22

the man has to ask her if you're being coerced into doing

2:24

this at all. And if she says yes, or even indicates

2:27

to him that there's any corrosion

2:29

or resistance, he's not allowed

2:31

to carry the wedding. And these are the type of things that I never

2:33

knew. I remember getting ready to get married. I

2:35

didn't know what the whole process was and then I learned

2:37

that, Oh, she could walk into that room and be

2:39

like, "No."

2:40

Yeah, that there is systemic power

2:42

there .

2:43

Yeah. In theory that's good . And it's actually maybe

2:45

not completely, but it's in favor of

2:47

the woman. And then on top of that, we have certain things

2:50

we'd have to do, like pray five times a day.

2:52

We give charity , um , on a regular

2:54

basis. But also there's like a zakat. It's

2:56

a mandatory yearly

2:59

donation. We'd go to hajji. You're supposed

3:01

to, if you can, you go to hajj. And

3:03

interestingly enough, the wife

3:05

could actually say, "Hey, you're

3:08

the head of my household. Okay

3:10

pay my zakat," and she can say "I'm not working." Yeah,

3:13

"You make money and bring it home."

3:15

"Pay my Zakat." And the only thing she, Oh yeah, the

3:17

only thing she has to do for herself is pray five

3:19

times a day cause nobody can do that for you. And I think

3:21

the other thing is go to Hij .

3:23

That's so fascinating.

3:24

That's what I learned at somebody else's wedding. I was like, wait

3:26

a minute, I have a lot

3:29

more responsibility than

3:31

I thought I did. And it made

3:33

me become more of a man,

3:36

or try to become more of a man. Especially

3:38

when I was sitting there and we were like sitting

3:40

in front of the contract and then it hit

3:42

me. I was like, what I'm saying

3:44

is I'm taking responsibility for

3:46

her, for caring for her, for her

3:48

livelihood. Yeah. And regardless

3:50

of if she - like my wife's in residency,

3:53

she will definitely be making more money than

3:55

I am! But regardless

3:57

of aspects of salary

3:59

and success to the material

4:02

sense, I c an't imagine being a father

4:04

and handing off your daughter to a random guy.

4:06

Cause there's, for the most part, there's

4:09

no way he's going to actually know who I am and

4:11

then it hit me. I was like, I a m responsible for somebody

4:13

for the first time in my life. A nd y es, she's responsible

4:15

and she's, she's successful and she's right. But

4:17

at the end of the day, like it's not like it's an unequal

4:19

thing, but just it's this, it's just like

4:21

she could your role in the p artners. Exactly. And

4:23

then she can say, yeah, go work, go figure

4:25

it out. Y eah. Religiously. And I

4:28

have to be like, a ll r ight, so how do

4:30

you think that plays out in reality

4:32

in terms of t he religiously she has that power?

4:35

Do you think that happens still a lot

4:37

of the t imes? I totally think it depends on the time

4:39

and the place. F or one, I don't think it's something that

4:41

is practiced all that much,

4:44

but also one that might not even be fully

4:46

understood. I only say that because o f the small sample

4:48

of people that were at that, at that wedding,

4:50

a lot of us afterwards we're l ike, a nd w

4:53

e're, we actively look for this knowledge. So

4:55

it was interesting to be like - Whoa, I didn't know about

4:57

this. But the cool thing was

5:00

t hat it made sense. It also has to do with the person

5:02

completely either way in the religion it's preached

5:04

that... So the man has that responsibility

5:07

and then God says to the women, like, the best of you,

5:09

pretty much in a nutshell, I'm not quoting it, focus

5:12

on their spirituality and their devotion

5:15

to God. Pretty much they a sk for less.

5:18

So there is this balance

5:20

constantly in I slam, which I'm sure you've heard

5:22

about living in Egypt, but

5:25

u m, t here's supposed to be this balance of

5:28

o kay, you technically have all of these rights,

5:30

the best of you are

5:33

kind and generous

5:35

and patient... Like not taking

5:37

it. As they understood. So just because you have

5:39

that right, doesn't necessarily mean it could be that

5:41

you do and it's better for the both of you.

5:43

Yeah. Well, and I wonder too if at least...

5:45

I've definitely seen this in Christianity where

5:48

sometimes just in terms of in reference

5:50

to you're not entirely knowing

5:52

about that kind of religious power

5:55

in a way that she has is because in

5:57

certain systems, culture

5:59

and interpretation gets mistaken for

6:02

religious law. So people might not even

6:04

ever, some people yeah, might get married and not even

6:06

know that they have that power because they

6:08

haven't been taught it because just the culture is so

6:10

gone one way and forgotten or

6:12

chosen not to to see that knowledge.

6:14

So it's... Do you know what I mean?

6:15

Like the other part of it. I think that's it to some extent. It's

6:17

not practiced necessarily here just

6:19

because we live in a different era and a different

6:22

place where for

6:24

instance, I'm learning now being married

6:26

and my wife has two sisters, majority

6:29

of her friends are female. I'm

6:31

learning what it actually means to

6:33

support women's rights. I

6:36

always knew that I was ignorant to an extent because I'm not

6:38

female and there's just things I want to understand

6:40

and I would always say like, well, that's not

6:42

fair. I don't care if it's male or female. Yeah.

6:45

It doesn't bother me. That's just not fair.

6:47

But when I started to understand

6:49

and be around mature, intelligent

6:52

women who talk about these things, articulate

6:54

it to say , I really don't understand.

6:57

And when I think about that in Toronto

7:00

or in North America in 2019

7:02

naturally with that type of conversation happening,

7:05

I don't think those things would be practiced as much

7:07

as widely. But like you said, some

7:09

cultures even maybe in

7:11

definitely in North America and Canada.

7:14

Yeah , older generations. Even

7:16

in our, in our generation, there's

7:18

that mixed between or that confusion

7:21

between the actual practice

7:23

and the root of what you're supposed to be

7:26

practicing in the religion and then the cultural

7:29

sex that come into play. And then obviously

7:31

if you go to some of those countries where there's

7:33

not a huge melting pot of cultures, that's

7:35

still extremely strong. L ike it's

7:38

still, yeah. It's

7:41

interesting to me that I know that

7:43

in Canada it's very progressive

7:45

in the sense of seeking knowledge

7:47

and understanding. At least I can

7:49

speak for the Muslim community. Understanding the religion for the

7:51

most part, but I almost

7:54

r ealized that we live in a bubble because we assume that

7:56

that same mentality for

7:58

the young people trying to understand

8:00

the religion, right, is the same in

8:02

Palestine and i s the same in India and in Australia

8:05

a nd, right. So it's interesting like some of the issues

8:07

that may not be the hot topic

8:10

right now in Canada

8:12

and w e're like, Oh yeah, w e've moved past that. Yeah.

8:14

You're in a very small 1% world

8:17

that actually knows that are trying

8:19

to d ecide o r i n, and that's not even to

8:21

say w e're better, it's just that it's

8:23

j ust fascinating that like you'd go back and t hey're having the same conversation

8:26

even if it's like a couple of years apart. Exact same conversation.

8:28

Yeah. And even within Palestine you might have that

8:31

bubble that is similar to here, but

8:33

then like five kilometers outside the city,

8:35

we're in a really conservative town. It's a totally different

8:37

conversation. Also it's been cool

8:39

doing this project because I found myself

8:41

talking to a lot of different people who are still

8:44

religious in their own way or like very

8:47

spiritually grounded in their own way, but are kind

8:49

of going through this reclaiming or relearning

8:51

process, which is just fascinating. And

8:53

it seems to be, yeah, it's different the world

8:55

and it's kind of fun. [.

8:58

Yeah... right now I'm like, this is so fascinating. Yeah

9:00

. Like it's like firing off in my head.

9:01

Cool.

9:02

I guess one more point on what I've learned about women in

9:05

Islam and my like... Whatever

9:07

they come to learn about responsibility

9:10

and such like, are you familiar with Hadiths?

9:12

Yeah . So, but you could you maybe explain

9:15

for the listeners?

9:16

The Hadith's, are teachings or lessons

9:19

or sayings and from the life

9:21

of the prophet Mohammad. And

9:23

then the Qur'an is the word of God,

9:26

that word of God relaid to the prophet

9:29

Muhammad . And then the message

9:31

that , which is why he's the messenger who's relaying that information.

9:33

But then the way he lived his life, we

9:35

get the Hadith's more for every day life. The

9:37

way to lead Islamic lifestyle

9:40

comes from the Hadiths. The

9:44

prophet was sent them. It's interesting

9:51

cause there's had an authentication process that has to happen

9:53

to prove the validity of

9:56

what somebody said the prophet had

9:58

said. Because you can't just

10:00

say, Oh he said that he said this. Yeah.

10:02

And then because you have influence. We were

10:04

like, cool, we're following that now. Right. Cause

10:06

it's taken very seriously. So in those

10:09

Hadith's about how we live our life and how the prophet lived

10:19

from his wife. The first

10:22

Muslim who was his first

10:24

wife. So

10:26

it's like, it always blows my mind

10:28

that she was considered to

10:30

be a strong enough voice in a way. And

10:33

when as regarded at these are

10:35

, was what I do a lot on how it was

10:37

very wealthy. Like she chose, she

10:39

was like, she had prophet Mohammed , so it's all

10:41

one was working for her. So she would've had some power

10:44

and she was very influential and

10:46

she was the first Muslim. And I think about that.

10:48

And then there's, in the Qu'ran it says heaven

10:50

is at the feet of your mother. If you're dying,

10:52

let's say you're in the hospital on a death bed,

10:54

the first thing the man does is call your mom

10:57

to ask her if she forgives you for it in any way.

10:59

Anything that you've done or wrong or in any way.

11:01

And if she doesn't say yes,

11:04

you don't go to heaven!

11:05

So you better keep things good with your mom!

11:07

Exactly. And it's like somebody asked the,

11:10

so all of a sudden I'm like, how

11:12

you should I love the people in my life? And

11:14

he said like your mother, your mother,

11:16

your mother and your father.

11:18

Wow.

11:18

And is it's so when I think about all those things

11:21

and then you put them together in context with

11:23

getting married and understanding the rights

11:25

that the woman has and like it's really

11:27

changing my perception

11:29

of masculinity. Like what does it actually mean

11:31

to be responsible and

11:34

a strong man if you don't understand

11:36

any of the rights that your woman hands right

11:39

over you.

11:40

And it's a shift in how you see your power

11:42

as opposed to I have power over and

11:44

more rights than or whatever.

11:46

It's like we have power together, but we have

11:48

different responsibilities and that always comes down

11:51

to however the partners decide

11:53

to work that should meet those things

11:56

and figure it out. Like there's no reason, in my

11:58

opinion, why I can't be a stay at home dad,

12:00

but there's still responsibilities. That's a discussion

12:02

to be had between, there's nothing that says you can't. Yeah,

12:05

it's just my perception change . And when I

12:07

think about all those things like wait a minute the

12:09

most, if you want to call it prolific

12:11

and authenticated scholar is a woman

12:14

obviously because she's living with The Profit,

12:17

saw everything he did and was awake every time he woke up

12:19

and who was there when he cried and

12:21

was there when he was like put down

12:23

and was there when he struggled , saw him and

12:25

all the moments naturally she's gonna

12:28

essentially to change my perspective of how I think

12:30

of a , I guess a masculinity in the religion.

12:32

I spent a lot of time with like my grandmother. I

12:34

just realized this the other day when

12:37

like I'm always looking at and reading about like the whole

12:39

#metoo movement and just women's rights

12:41

and I wouldn't say I'm like studying it, but

12:43

I'm definitely aware and still

12:45

think about it, but I really don't dive into

12:48

it . I would think I'm very much thinking about how I

12:50

function as a human being in the world

12:52

in relation to those things, but she's been

12:54

in the music industry. It's like,

12:57

what would I do if I saw that a body of

12:59

work and you need to understand, but just for myself,

13:01

and I realized that

13:03

biggest influences of my life have all

13:05

been female. My grandmother, cause

13:07

I was like the closest with my grandmother. I

13:10

think a lot more like my mom. I could see

13:12

now that we're older, my brothers are both older than me. I

13:14

would say we're all mixed. Like obviously

13:16

my mom and dad. But I would say I leaned closer

13:19

to my mom and my brothers lived closer to my dad.

13:21

I spent a lot of time analyzing

13:23

my household and being like

13:25

the quieter one. I think that had a lot

13:27

to do with it because like my brothers

13:29

were, my oldest brother's like eight years older than me. The

13:32

ones like three years, I think older than me . Like

13:34

if they were going through an issue or the teenagers

13:37

or whatever, I would just, just wasn't a teenager yet.

13:39

So you were observing?

13:40

Yeah. Now my mom's still had like control over

13:42

me. Right. I was a child. And so

13:45

I really got to

13:47

see like my mom's perspective and

13:49

she would say things to me like, don't ever do that

13:52

or make sure you don't become somebody that's like that.

13:54

So do you see how that affects this and this

13:56

and she's very, she kind of helped you be in

13:59

tune with other people . And I think about

14:01

it, she was very much like, do you see how that

14:03

makes other people feel this way? And she

14:05

actually was the first person that made me analyze a song

14:07

as early as I can remember. Wow . So there was

14:09

a line in a song. I hope you still feel

14:12

small when you stand beside the ocean.

14:13

What's that from?

14:14

It's um , I hope

14:16

you dance. We

14:19

w ould like d riving the car on t he way to school in the morning.

14:22

And we used to go to an Islamic school. So I was in Mississauga a

14:24

nd we were in Brampton, I was in grade 2. And

14:26

I still remember her saying like when you get home from

14:29

school today, tell me what you think that means.

14:31

I like your mom.

14:32

Yeah. And it's so interesting cause like by no means

14:34

was she this way through my teen years but I was really

14:36

young. I start remembering these things. Um,

14:38

yeah cause I think of

14:40

that interaction and having like I

14:43

guess an outside perspective to an extent of my

14:45

family life and for us it's three boys

14:47

and my dad and my mom. I think it really changed

14:50

the way I think and perceive

14:52

just the life. But a lot of that

14:55

mentality came from women in my life and

14:57

now even my wife ever, I realized that she

15:00

was a huge influence in my life obviously.

15:02

But even like psychologically

15:04

and it just seems to keep being women.

15:06

I find I have the better conversations with women. I

15:08

have more insightful conversations.

15:10

And why do you think that is? In terms of what?

15:12

I don't know what other men are maybe going through?

15:14

Yeah. In my

15:16

opinion. I think it's a lot of the whole,

15:19

how does that make you feel? And I don't

15:21

think the guys around me or the guy, like when I grew

15:23

up that tapping into your feelings

15:25

was a , not even just tapping into them, cause

15:27

obviously everybody's feeling things and they have feelings.

15:30

But I think it was um, more so

15:32

articulating, being able to say,

15:34

I'm upset... or I didn't like that

15:36

or I feel sad about

15:39

that and I don't know

15:41

what happened. But along the way I became,

15:43

when I realized that most guys

15:45

around me didn't speak that way or didn't know

15:47

how. I think it was really, it didn't know how to articulate

15:50

to get into that conversation.

15:52

I realized that I could and

15:54

that it made me different in my

15:56

circles to be able to just talk

15:58

and say whatever I'm feeling. And to some

16:00

extent I think all the sports and that

16:03

performance side of my life was,

16:05

it made me more resilient to people

16:07

saying something, playing at a high level, you're pushed to

16:09

a really, you're pushed to your limits a lot

16:11

and then you realize that it really doesn't matter

16:14

what other people say or do and it's how you perform.

16:16

And that informs the rest of my life now.

16:18

Cool. So I think with all that combined, I started saying,

16:20

you know what, I'm going to talk about a lot of strength of character

16:23

and like this is what makes the difference. I can articulate

16:25

that and it allows me to write the way I write.

16:27

And you haven't been afraid of putting that emotion in there?

16:29

No. And I don't know . I don't know why I'm able to

16:31

say it. I just realized that I could

16:34

and now it's translated into, I make

16:36

vulnerable music. I

16:38

have a song out now called "Chkchkbang." It's very specific,

16:41

a little, not aggressive, but it's intense and

16:43

it's specific. And this specific perspective

16:45

I had on with like the black lives matter, and just

16:48

oppression of the black community in general,

16:50

the African American community. I had a very specific

16:53

thing to say about it. Obviously that's going to have a specific tone

16:55

and I said that. But if I'm, for the most part, if I'm

16:57

talking about like, Oh, this relationship I

17:00

had or the way this person made

17:02

me feel and that's going to be the song,

17:04

okay . I find myself thinking

17:06

constantly like it doesn't make me want to cry,

17:09

then it's not good enough. And it's interesting because

17:11

I think at an early age I, for whatever

17:13

reason to realize that it was like I would find

17:15

myself in my bedroom just like crying

17:18

and I didn't know why. I was like, I'm just crying. And then

17:20

as I got older, I obviously didn't tell anybody that.

17:22

You're probably the first person I told that. But like I

17:24

just, I was like, I cried and I was like, I'm not

17:26

making myself cry. I'm not sitting there being like, yeah

17:28

, you should cry. But you're obviously experienced picking up

17:30

something in the world that is recognizing the

17:33

feeling and it , but it's cool that you haven't identified

17:36

that as a negative where it's like some people would think,

17:38

because I know a lot of people around me and with

17:40

majority I would say they would think males would

17:42

be like, I shouldn't be crying.

17:44

Like a sensitivity is seen as a bad

17:46

thing.

17:46

Exactly.

17:47

As opposed to being like in tune or aware

17:49

or whatever.

17:50

Yeah. And as I got older I realized like, no, I'm

17:52

just in to , I figured out , I started figuring out why

17:54

I cried. No, cause that is innately There's

17:58

something to cry about - it's okay, why aren't

18:00

you crying? Yeah. T ook m e i nto like my twenties

18:03

t o b e l ike, Oh it's a good, y

18:05

ou just have no emotion.

18:06

Right. Or you just shut it down, shut

18:08

it down. You don't know how to feel.

18:11

That to me is more sad and upsetting

18:14

than me crying. But that's like,

18:16

I don't, I couldn't tell you why I got in that direction.

18:19

I've sure me, I guess a blessing that I went in that direction

18:21

and totally, and I actually don't care if

18:23

somebody says anything about it, so let me do

18:25

it.

18:25

Totally. Not everybody can do this, and it helps

18:28

create culture where that's more and more possible.

18:29

I think that was a great point because a big part of my

18:32

music is culture. I have a culture

18:34

I'm trying to set for myself

18:36

first. That reflects the people around

18:38

me and the culture becomes

18:40

a big part of it. Like if I'm not saying

18:43

what I'm feeling, how can I build that culture

18:45

and be like that for myself.

18:47

Yeah. If you want that for other people, but you can't do it

18:49

yourself,

18:50

Then yeah, and I think a big part of it became

18:52

why music is a big thing for me spiritually

18:55

and I guess in terms of sexuality

18:57

as a male in that side of

19:00

sexuality is it's my way

19:02

of constantly telling myself like, Oh, if you want

19:04

that to be that way or you think it should be that way,

19:06

do it yourself.

19:07

Yeah . Figure it out on your own first.

19:08

You can't expect other people to be critical.

19:11

Don't like your music. You expect people

19:13

to talk about their emotions. If you don't

19:15

talk about it...

20:01

cool. And so did your wife?

20:03

How did you guys meet?

20:04

Yes when I came back from Germany actually

20:06

I saw her at a Williams

20:08

cause I was doing like all this music stuff.

20:10

Wait, sorry. You were in Germany doing

20:12

it ?

20:12

I was on tour.

20:13

When was that?

20:15

Years ago . The summer

20:17

of 2013 cool

20:18

So I Went

20:22

to Western for kinesiology. Loved

20:24

it. And then I started, I was writing for a long

20:26

time and I started actually rapping

20:29

randomly in this like resident

20:31

Dawn, like their RAs dorm room. They

20:34

were just like messing around and he's like, Oh do

20:36

you have to get on the mic? And actually like wrote

20:38

and I did it and then he went and like

20:40

played it for a bunch of people in the residence and

20:43

people were like, Oh you're the guy that song

20:45

are you talking about it ? But like I just didn't even

20:47

know. Yeah. Did forgot about it and then

20:49

got a lot of good feedback and realized that I actually enjoyed

20:52

the process of it. Which now I realize

20:54

is the more important thing is understanding the process

20:56

and loving the process. Yeah . Um,

20:59

yeah cause that's what will give you a career. Yeah . I

21:01

think rather than loving the outcome.

21:04

So I started recording more. That's when I went, I found a Mic

21:06

and I was at the same time applying, I was

21:08

trying to get into med school. So my summers were just like

21:10

MCAT courses, extra courses the

21:13

week before I wrote my MCAT like the exam to actually

21:15

see that you need to even apply to get into that school.

21:18

Yeah . It was literally the Sunday, I think

21:20

before and after . Right on the Saturday.

21:22

Wow. After a whole summer of courses

21:24

and whatever, somebody asks me like why I want it to

21:27

be a doctor. At that point into second

21:29

year university, I had realized

21:31

that I wanted to take music seriously, but it still wasn't

21:33

at the forefront of what I was doing, but I was taking it seriously,

21:36

let's do it and all my spare time I was, I was making music

21:38

and writing and then I , somebody asked me why I want it to be

21:41

a doctor and I was like, cool

21:43

, I do not have an answer for you. And then

21:45

it hit me where I was like, I'm going to go sit through this

21:47

six hour exam. Never mind if

21:49

I get them to the best and if I don't,

21:52

putting myself through this for another year to try

21:54

to get in because that was probably the , the

21:56

more what's more likely , um

21:58

, in Canada at least it takes like a couple tries.

22:01

Yeah. As much as I did really well,

22:03

I wasn't like a shoe -in. And then I was laying on

22:05

top of that. You want to be an orthopedic surgeon that's going to

22:07

take you, I think the residency is like nine

22:09

years or something, let alone just having spare time

22:11

for music. Exactly. Energy. And

22:14

then it hit me. I was like, yo , why am I doing this?

22:16

Wow. And then I told my parents and they were supportive

22:18

but still kind of obviously upset because

22:21

I had high ambition. That's when like everything

22:23

shifted and I started becoming a creative

22:25

I think as opposed to just writing. And I started

22:27

in my creative process and from

22:30

there getting to Germany,

22:32

how I got there was that summer.

22:35

Okay. You're still in university?

22:36

Yeah. So I'm going into third year, summer before fourth year , somebody

22:39

asked me, there was the a exchange trip for the

22:41

kinesiology students to Australia. And

22:43

one of my friends who I've met, maybe like at one month before

22:45

Rachel was like, Hey, I'm applying

22:48

and you should apply. And then another friend of mine was

22:50

like, Hey, I might apply. Why don't you go? So

22:52

Rachel just told me she's going and this other friend that I knew

22:54

a little bit better, it was like, you should go. And my immediate

22:56

response, I'll still remember this , I'm standing in the gym at Western.

22:59

And immediately I go, no, I gotta be

23:01

here. I have courses in the summer. And she was like,

23:03

no, you don't, but you're so,

23:05

so like instinctively.

23:08

That's what my summer was. And I was like, Oh, we're

23:10

gonna write to actually do it in the. My

23:13

new friend Rachel was like, the deadline

23:16

closed in February and this is like April at this allowed

23:18

before exams. Oh , that sucks. Yeah. But Hey,

23:20

I have a whole summer and we figure what I'm going to do. Rachel was

23:22

like, you should go hand it in. I'm like, I'm two months,

23:25

three months late . When he said I walked into the office

23:27

and they're like, actually yeah, there's somebody pending

23:29

so we'll take your allocation. When I handed in

23:31

my application, she came in to say

23:33

no,, I

23:35

said hi to her or whatever and she left and I handed in my

23:37

application but I didn't like three days and

23:39

I ended up going Australia for the first semester

23:42

of fourth year there I met this guy,

23:44

Germany leads in Europe events. Sebastian , um

23:46

, have been done book fools and

23:49

we did with like this guitarist

23:51

from Mexico and a singer from New

23:53

Jersey, like these random cool mashup mash

23:55

up of people. We did like random shows on campus.

23:57

Where were you in Australia?

23:59

We're in Melbourne.Yeah, and

24:01

we did a few shows and then he says,

24:03

Hey, we're going on tour next summer, you should come!

24:05

And this is right when school in

24:08

Australia Finished in October roughly. We didn't have to

24:10

be back until January. So right before we were all about

24:12

to go in different directions. Just travel. He's

24:14

like, you should come. We'll talk when we all get

24:17

back at the end of December. And I was like, all right , cool.

24:19

Whatever. Sure. Yeah . And we ran , I went

24:21

to Thailand, Cambodia, Tasmania,

24:23

and then we get back and we're all getting

24:25

ready to just go home now. Traveled, got back to Melbourne

24:27

, packed all our stuff and he's like, so I told my

24:30

band that you are coming so could you be here by July 3rd or

24:32

something? And I was like, Oh, you're serious. I

24:34

was like, wait a minute, I'm not doing anything this summer - I'm

24:36

graduating. I was like, I want to take music

24:38

seriously. In that time I had started writing for

24:41

a some who's on the song that I just released "My World."

24:43

So he's part of a band outlandish

24:45

for a long time who was like really

24:48

well known. The tour ended

24:50

on the North sea on the North coast of Germany,

24:52

which w as like an hour South of Copenhagen where Isam B was.

24:55

And his band Outlandish was on

24:57

tour, but they were back for four days. And

24:59

those four days. The first day was the day we

25:01

finished the tour, s o we did like two or three

25:03

Germany. I was staying with the guitarist a nd t he b and in

25:05

like his attic, in Cologne,

25:08

G ermany, and then they dropped me off at a random train

25:10

station and I like, and I met y ou s

25:12

ome and I literally got there to just shake his hand. But I was on

25:14

a, actually when I went to Germany, I went on a one way ticket.

25:17

So I said, I'm going to go, I'm going to make music and what happens. I'm

25:19

g etting this lined up t o, well I'm doing a tour. It's going to

25:21

end an hour South of Copenhagen. This

25:23

guy who I'd been writing for in the industry who

25:26

w as super successful and I have never

25:28

met him face to face. He actually told me, he's

25:30

like, you should go home. So I got h im. I 'm like, Hey, I'm

25:32

here. I g ot t o find a place to live

25:34

and I just want to make music work. And then the

25:37

next day i t's like, I think y ou should go home.

25:37

Why do you think did he say that?

25:39

His interpretation

25:44

was he's never seen an artist genuinely

25:46

grow like an audience and a fan

25:48

base and themselves outside of their

25:50

own community. At first and at the time I was

25:52

like, you don't know what you're talking about - we have Youtube and whatever

25:54

and then it hit me. I literally woke up at like

25:56

5:00 AM one day and I was just like, I need to go home....

25:58

["My World" Raz feat. Isam B - clip plays] And

27:00

then I came back early. It was like November,

27:03

2013 yeah. When I came back is when I met Heba

27:05

so I was just focused on music. Yeah , I'm back,

27:07

but all I'm doing is music and then I can

27:09

get a job is lady that I

27:11

was in the , I was just like constantly working on stuff

27:14

and then I ran into her. We got married like it probably

27:17

was like a year after.

27:19

That's really cool. Following on your Instagram

27:21

and stuff that you've been pretty vocal about

27:23

your beliefs in and around your career, which has been

27:25

kind of interesting to watch. What is your relationship

27:28

between your faith and your music? How does one

27:30

influence the other or express itself

27:32

or is it really that related? Like how do you see that relationship?

27:35

When I started writing music and

27:37

I started focusing, I realized that the people

27:39

that I looked up to, like Lauryn Hill and Talib Kweli, and Lupe,

27:42

they either were spiritual or

27:44

they followed a specific religion or they'd studied like

27:46

Islam and Christianity and Judaism and

27:48

what they were saying in their music. I was like, that's what I want to say,

27:51

cause no matter what Lauryn Hill said, it was like ultimate

27:53

truths. It's like a capital T truth. So

27:55

whether you were Muslim or Christian or Catholic

27:58

or Buddhist, she's stirring something in you for sure...

28:00

She says something and you have to, you have to

28:02

agree. You're like, Oh yeah, you have to feel

28:04

it. I wasn't getting that from, if you

28:06

wanna call it the Muslim industry music. So

28:08

I was like, where are they getting these truths from? Like

28:11

how are they saying these things and it hitting home for

28:13

me when I have no relation to Lauryn Hill, We

28:15

didn't grow up in the same place. We're not even

28:17

the same gender or whatever. I

28:20

realized that is she tapping into, yeah . Then

28:22

I learned that she had studied the Bible in

28:24

the Quran and like was very spiritual

28:27

in that sense... Just learning. And then I was like, wait

28:29

a minute, I have the Quran and that's

28:31

when my writing really took a turn and I started actually writing

28:33

stuff that I really liked. And so from the get-go,

28:35

that's how the, I guess the spirituality came

28:38

into my music. It hit home for me. My

28:40

grandfather really drove it into my head that like Islam

28:42

and being Muslim is a way of life. It's not just religion,

28:44

it's all check boxes is a way of life. So

28:47

it's interesting cause like when I started

28:49

writing raps and music

28:51

was what I actually realized that I was practicing

28:54

my religion more because now it was, it was of

28:56

like holding me up to a standard for my, within

28:58

myself. Wow. Like what are you talking about? You

29:00

want to have to think about all of these things. It was like eight years

29:02

from now, 10 years from now when I'm dead,

29:05

I can't take any of that stuff back. What do I want

29:07

to have said? What ? What I grew into and what

29:09

I realized was I for a long

29:12

time didn't say anything.

29:14

For the most part, my music was not layered

29:16

with anything that was directly

29:19

related to Islam in the sense of

29:21

like saying the prophet's name or saying

29:24

some prayers in Arabic on it or whatever.

29:26

Yeah. But yeah, I realized that

29:28

I really wanted to showcase the lifestyle

29:31

and the understanding

29:33

of my religion for wherever I was at that point

29:35

in my life. Yeah. I just sing everyday

29:38

things saying in ways that everybody can relate

29:40

to cause for me to be honest, part of it is

29:43

if you're already Muslim, you're going to understand

29:45

what I'm saying in relation to the

29:47

daily or the hadiths or the practice or the

29:49

struggles we go through. And to be honest,

29:51

for as a Muslim, I'm not, I'm trying to get people

29:54

who aren't Muslim to get some

29:56

insight into what we go through or what

29:58

our lifestyle is like or why we

30:00

do the things we do. Especially in

30:02

nowadays where everybody's a terrorist

30:05

or minorities in various

30:07

areas, whether you are black or Muslim or

30:10

just ethnic in any way.

30:12

Everybody has a struggle and it's exaggerated.

30:14

Now, not exaggerated Is the wrong word is blown

30:17

out of proportion now where people

30:19

don't even do any research before they

30:21

act or talk about somebody

30:23

from a different population or community.

30:26

So I was like, you know what? I'm going to say it in the

30:28

way that I know like my everyday vernacular

30:30

and how I switched just being yourself anyway. Exactly.

30:33

And underlying all of my music

30:35

is that is the fact that all of it comes from

30:37

my everyday life. Living as a Muslim, what I'm

30:39

going up and down with, if I'm like not praying,

30:41

if I'm just thinking if I'm real.

30:44

Yeah. I was like, you know what? This is what it

30:46

is. I want it to be real

30:48

to me and genuine to me and as authentic

30:51

to me as possible.

30:52

Which kind of cool, cause I think it kind of goes back to

30:54

something we talked a little bit about earlier

30:56

in terms of this reclaiming of religion.

30:59

If people who just want to listen to Muslim

31:01

music, want to listen to music, most of the music that

31:03

exists already and if people don't want to,

31:05

well then that definitely exists. But there's

31:07

so many people trying to figure out, okay , well I am like

31:10

religious or have this part of me, but it's

31:12

not like then I only fit in this box of what

31:14

some being Muslim means must exist in

31:16

this.

31:17

Exactly. I don't agree with everything Drake is saying.

31:19

Right, but sounds

31:22

a lot better than what's coming out in the Muslim community

31:24

and everybody likes what Drake's doing and it's fun.

31:27

And then , in the Muslim community, you're like, I fit

31:29

better there, I guess because I do

31:32

want to, or I am practicing my religion,

31:34

so maybe I shouldn't be listening to some of

31:36

the stuff that Drake is saying, but

31:38

I don't like that music. That's exactly

31:41

what that , you're right . That's exactly where I sat and

31:43

I just realize...

31:45

Yeah like why does it have to be black and white?

31:46

Exactly. Like , actually this is the first

31:48

time I'm going to say this in a way it's a

31:50

thought. I like this a thought I've had.

31:53

There's definitely um , a difference of opinion

31:55

on even just music being permissible

31:58

in Islam. I'm not sure if you knew about...

32:00

Well I only know about that in the

32:02

extreme context of Saudi Arabia cause I have a lot

32:04

of students from Saudi. And so in terms of

32:06

just the heightened way that I guess some Arab

32:08

law presents itself, there would be a lot of

32:10

cities where like playing public music isn't allowed.

32:12

So that's the only context I would really have heard.

32:15

Yeah .

32:15

And that's something that I think about all the

32:17

time. I do a lot of research for myself.

32:19

I speak to a lot of world leading scholars and whenever

32:21

I can, and I try to figure out my thing and

32:23

I for myself think that is permissible

32:26

to a certain extent. So if I'm swearing

32:28

and talking about drugs and alcohol and sex and all

32:30

these things that are genuinely not permissible

32:33

in the religion, naturally it's not reasonable for me to

32:35

be saying those things . If I'm making music that's just like

32:37

clapping or so people can drink and party

32:39

in a club, that's not something that

32:41

I even do. Nevermind, like that's

32:43

permissible as a Muslim. And what I realized

32:46

recently in the last maybe year was

32:48

the debate within the Muslim community

32:50

is like it's either mystical or it's not,

32:52

and what I realized is when you actually do

32:55

it, there's, I feel like not

32:57

enough people have done it or dove

32:59

deep enough into it to realize

33:02

that it's a job. I

33:04

think people take it as it's either spiritual

33:06

or it's not. So the people in the Muslim community

33:08

who make music like let's call them Muslim

33:10

industry and music. Yeah . They're like,

33:12

Oh, it brings us closer to God. People listen

33:14

to it and they want to practice their religion more, which is

33:17

fair. If that's happening, that's happened. Totally. I'm

33:19

not there. I can't say that that's not happening. But then

33:21

on the other side, the debate is, no,

33:23

it's wrong because of this, this and this. Their interpretation

33:25

of that and that's it. It's like spiritual or it's

33:28

not. And what I realized trying

33:30

to fit in in the middle was for

33:32

me, music isn't spiritual at all. That

33:34

hit me. I was like, wait a minute, what are we

33:36

even debating about? And I stopped having

33:38

the debate. I stopped having it cause I was like

33:40

the one thing from the Quran , the one verse

33:42

that always brings me, it always

33:44

brings me calmness and brings me back to

33:47

my purpose is God tells

33:49

us that the state of mankind will never

33:51

change until mankind changes

33:53

the state of its own heart.

33:55

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33:57

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33:59

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34:04

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34:18

break down those taboos. Boo-Yeah,

34:21

So I was like, why am I debating with you and debating

34:23

with you? I have to figure out what I'm doing to make any type

34:26

of difference in my own life or anybody else's

34:28

life and I just realized this isn't about spirituality. I

34:31

think that's an old debate when it comes to music and the arts

34:33

because it's not just music - visual artists, it's

34:36

actors, it's anything. I do still

34:38

agree that there's a line that you can't cross

34:40

if you're a practicing Muslim and

34:42

you're trying to be better as a Muslim, but

34:45

there is a middle ground that is,

34:47

this isn't spiritual for me. This is a tool

34:49

that I use to get out what I need to say to

34:52

be creative. I think my creativity

34:54

is probably tied to my spirituality. It makes

34:56

me like for you personally it might be exactly

34:58

like an outlet, but the music

35:01

itself is not spiritual for me as a Muslim,

35:03

God tells us exactly how to get closer to

35:05

him. We pray you do those five pillars of the

35:07

religion, so it's not like your music is taking away from

35:09

me doing that. Like if you left, for example, like working

35:12

at a clothing store or something, it wouldn't be

35:14

like, okay, maybe you could talk about ethics around

35:16

it and where the clothes came from or something like that. But it's not

35:19

like that . Fundamentally nobody does. They just go

35:21

and they work and then it might come down to the point where

35:23

the company like Nike or something gets so

35:25

big, it's so obvious that people start quitting.

35:27

But really nobody goes to an engineering position

35:29

and thinks about where that engineering is going. Nobody

35:31

really thinks of if you're a software engineer and the way he thinks

35:33

about you might to some extent, but not any

35:35

questions you've become an or that

35:38

can be your personal journey. Like why am I want to do that? Exactly.

35:40

But not someone having that outside opinion. Exactly.

35:43

But to even start making music is , is an

35:45

issue. Um, I think it's less

35:47

now, but when I started eight,

35:49

nine years ago, I was still very much an issue.

35:52

But then I hit this phase in my life

35:54

where I was like, I was being pulled into both directions

35:56

and then I realized, wait a minute, I don't actually

35:58

agree with any of these directions. My direction

36:00

is if God told me,

36:02

and I'm still on a journey to understand if it's, I wouldn't

36:05

say it's permissible, but if it's going to be

36:07

what I do for my entire life. Because

36:09

for me the first step was I started

36:11

referencing the Qu'ran and my religion and trying to learn it

36:13

so I can write better than it flipped on me

36:15

and I started like, Oh, it's actually has answers

36:18

to a lot of the issues in my life cause I mean keep reading

36:20

about it and I really started following.

36:22

I try to follow more and more. I realized

36:24

that that was like step one for me, getting

36:26

closer to God, which is my ultimate goal

36:28

in life. So who am I to

36:30

say that step two and three and four it can be the same thing.

36:33

Like that's going to be as a Muslim. I'm like, that's going to be whatever

36:35

God wants it to be. Right now

36:37

there's a tool that I have to use,

36:39

but I don't feel a connection to a higher

36:42

thing. When I was into music.

36:43

What about when you sing, do

36:45

you feel anything?

36:46

I think it was easy before

36:49

as a Muslim to pick one of those sides.

36:51

Oh yeah. I feel very spiritual when I do it,

36:53

but I realized that it might be an issue

36:56

or a matter of articulation. So

36:58

when I'm on stage and I'm rapping or

37:00

I'm singing or I'm performing, it's

37:03

exhilarating and it's empowering

37:05

and more so for me it's inspiring. Cause

37:08

I can see the effect that my words

37:10

are having on people and people come up to me afterwards. For

37:12

me, my lyrics are everything. So people come up to me after the

37:14

show, almost every show, which I never

37:16

thought would happen. They're like, Oh, what did you

37:18

say? Like on this lines and this, this and this.

37:21

There's a line of having a song that's actually coming out in a

37:23

few weeks. Cool. Right? Say you poured a couple

37:25

shots. Now I'm the only one that's sober. And

37:28

this young kid heard it when I performed it

37:30

last year and came up to me . He's like, what did you say

37:32

about pouring shots ? And I knew this kid was Muslim

37:34

and he might've been struggling with something alcohol

37:36

or whatever. It was so interesting cause I

37:38

was like wow. Yeah , it tells me every time I have

37:40

to be very careful what , what? And then I explained it to him . But

37:43

the fact to me is inspiring. But I would

37:45

not say for myself it's spiritual.

37:47

But I think in the past people were like, yeah, get

37:50

in a , get a lift from it. Wow . And that's automatically

37:52

related to spirituality because you're getting the lift . But

37:54

the reality is if you're talking about mostly

37:56

being Muslim and being closer to God

37:59

or being uplifted, there's very specific ways to do that.

38:01

It's very simple. The biggest thing for

38:03

a Muslim is their intention. That's what you're judged on.

38:07

Cause if your intention changes, that's the issue. I'm

38:09

realizing it's a very lonely place

38:12

in the midst of ministry. There are people doing it though, like Isam

38:14

B which is why he's a mentor of mine. Cat

38:16

Stevens. So Yusuf Islam , a

38:19

mentor Isam's too. Very

38:21

profound. Like he actually stopped making music all

38:23

together when he converted and then came

38:25

back to it and wrote a book on it and Isam sent

38:27

me the book and said every young Muslim artist

38:30

needs to read this.

38:31

Yeah. And what's the book called? Do you remember.

38:33

Why I still carry my guitar. There's another

38:35

verse from Quran that's actually, don't

38:37

quote me, it might be head teeth, but He who knows himself moves

38:40

closer to God.

38:41

So you're checking yourself a bit.

38:42

Exactly. It constantly pushes me to check myself.

38:44

And then when I read that book I just realized that

38:47

he might be the only expert on the topic. Cause

38:49

those scholars have really, and that's not obviously

38:51

they're the spiritual or the religious experts

38:54

on why it might be permissible or why

38:56

it's not. But when you're talking about doing

38:58

it as a career, he was writing with

39:00

Paul McCartney and Ringo

39:03

Starr when he converted them , dropped everything

39:06

sold all his guitars to auction, didn't make

39:08

any money off it, cut out his publishing from

39:10

these music and make money off of it. Because

39:12

that's the other thing. As a Muslim, it's like if you're

39:14

getting your money in a way that's impermissible, then that's

39:17

not good. That's what you feed your kids

39:19

with like a lot of responsibility. You get from God.

39:21

It's not yours. It's something you used to do,

39:23

things, things you're doing are, yeah. If you want to save

39:25

quote unquote tainted as a Muslim, that's not right. So if you

39:27

cut it all the, all the money, everything

39:30

is wild. And then he wrote a book about why he came

39:32

back to making music and I was like, you've

39:34

been through it and understand

39:36

the nuances. It's very easy for people to stand on the outside

39:39

and talk about it. And now I go through it and

39:41

I'm realizing how my spirituality is tied to it.

39:43

And the first thing that hit me was it's not spiritual

39:45

for me. ["Myself" Raz - audio clip plays] But

40:49

yeah, it's been an interesting journey of connecting

40:52

my art with my spirituality

40:54

because at least in the Muslim community

40:57

it's kind of like a mess.

40:59

I'm curious, you'd also mentioned just a little

41:01

bit of the image that some people have about

41:03

Muslims in the world and that being also a bit

41:05

of a mess sometimes. Have

41:08

you found that in the music industry in terms

41:10

of how people perceive you? Has that been more

41:12

positive? Has it been kind of struggle

41:14

in that?

41:15

That's a fantastic question. When I first started

41:18

and I realized that, so

41:20

9/11. For instance, right around

41:22

the time w here I really was starting

41:24

to f inish music a nd r ight, ready

41:27

to put it out, I was always in a lot of

41:29

like social activism and community

41:32

work. And for me,

41:34

because I'm sure this will have some people

41:37

upset, I r ealized that all of the

41:39

picketing and debating and

41:42

arguing, to be honest, that we were doing to try

41:44

to prove that we as Muslims weren't

41:46

terrorists, wasn't doing anything. In my

41:48

opinion, n othing was moving. I actually,

41:50

John Mayer says this in, u h, in

41:52

one of his songs, I believe, on Continuum.

41:55

Okay. He, the whole song is about if

41:57

we fight for on based

41:59

on our beliefs, we're never g oing t o have any changes.

42:02

Everybody has different beliefs. Everybody thinks that what

42:04

they believe is right. And one of the lines it says is that

42:06

when have you seen someone actually c

42:08

hanged their mind from the words on a sign? And

42:11

then it hit me. I was like, damn.

42:13

C ause i t's exactly what I went through. I was like, I

42:16

got to the point where I was like this for me. I didn't

42:18

see a movement in t his picketing. Like we can

42:20

yell and scream and do whatever we want, but to be honest,

42:22

they're telling us that were

42:24

aggressive and we, if we see

42:26

somebody that's not Muslim, we're supposed to kill them. But

42:28

everything's based on this aggression and this i s i n this murder

42:31

and this idea of war and

42:33

conflict k ill whoever's not like

42:35

you. So what do you think w ill b eing changed?

42:37

So what happened to me

42:40

was I realized what would bring change

42:42

was the same verse from the Qu'ran - mankind

42:44

will never change y ou unless they change the state of their own hearts .

42:46

L et's start with you - start with what are you

42:48

doing make a difference? In Islam, everything's based

42:51

i n family. So you're strong i n your family

42:54

c ore a nd every way, not just spiritually, every

42:56

way. Then we have a better

42:59

chance. So when I think about that, I was like, what

43:01

am I doing in my life? I'm

43:03

worried about what's going on the other side of the world, which

43:05

is completely fair and we should,

43:07

but it's that s aying of think

43:09

globally, act locally...

43:11

The change starts at home.

43:12

How can you change anything? So that's what really hit home

43:14

for me. And when I realized that I started thinking

43:17

about everyday conversations and rhetoric.

43:19

So when I came back from Germany it was on Christmas

43:22

day. So cause I was like cheaper

43:25

ticket's it's going to be

43:27

awesome. Yeah, I'm just there. I'm sleeping across four seats.

43:30

There was another girl there around my age and I was

43:32

like, yo , you don't celebrate Christmas either? And

43:34

she , she was Jewish. She was like, no. Yeah. So we

43:36

started talking and she actually asked to be on the plane

43:38

at one point.... So aren't... Muslims

43:41

suppose to kill people

43:42

that aren't... and she kinda like

43:44

tailed off. Whoa . And I just kind of laughed and

43:47

I was like, was...

43:48

She was , she was genuinely asking me?

43:50

She's like, aren't they supposed to like she didn't say

43:52

kill, but she was like, I'm supposed to like, like wah

43:54

, like, yeah. And she kind of like tailed

43:57

off. And then I was like, well, you've leave it on, you've been

43:59

on this plane for about six hours, so I think you're okay. And

44:01

then I said, I'm not like waiting till I was

44:03

, when I told her was , I'm like, I don't know if you know this . Well , since

44:05

we're actually with Judaism,

44:08

we're the closest ties than

44:10

any other religious community. Like we

44:12

halal meat. We can eat kosher,

44:15

I can go to your house and eat all the meat you as long

44:17

as not pork. And that's a

44:19

strong thing to, that's a strong - our

44:22

burial process is very similar. It was interesting

44:24

to hear that because I started thinking of the conversations

44:27

that people have and I said, what

44:29

if, to be honest, if I was around the people I

44:31

had previously been around picketing and debating and

44:33

arguing and just saying, no, we're not that

44:35

way. We're not terrorists. If I was still

44:37

that person, and she asked me that

44:39

and I got upset, what does she leave that conversation

44:42

with? Yes . And once she goes home and

44:44

she's from the U S and somebody randomly

44:46

goes, Oh, these Muslims are crazy.

44:48

Very common line. I would say. Not

44:51

everybody's saying these Muslims kill people, but I'm sure people

44:53

are like, I don't know about these Muslims. Yeah, I don't know about

44:55

these, these Muslims . And like they, I don't

44:57

know about that. And then she, the only

44:59

thing she can do is refer to a personal experience

45:02

and she knows that I'm Muslim. And what if when she asked me that,

45:04

I flipped out. It's not a

45:06

far jump to be like, yeah, would he hit somebody

45:09

that said something more aggressive at a temper tantrums,

45:11

looking at whatever. So when I, and that's when I went quiet

45:13

about being Muslim in the industry in general. So

45:15

I am getting to your point, yeah . When I go into

45:17

the studio, I made a , um , after

45:19

that flight I made it a conscious effort to

45:21

not say that I'm Muslim, to

45:23

not say initially just not walk up and

45:25

be like, yeah, I do mean this. I'm Muslim. People can

45:27

discover it as they get to know like if I'm living that

45:29

life and I live up to those standards, I

45:32

want people to respect me cause they're not the

45:34

most part. But there are people, especially

45:36

back around 9/11, and even now

45:38

who, if they hear that their perception changes immediately.

45:40

So I was like, I want to change

45:43

the route of things. I think the route is

45:45

how am I changing conversations.

45:47

Body and Wine Podcast encourages guests

45:49

to freely discuss their experiences, ideas

45:52

and opinions. These beliefs and stories

45:54

are representative of the individuals that share

45:56

them amongst laughs and bits of

45:58

wisdom. These conversations can also include

46:00

varying challenges related to belief and sexuality.

46:03

Please use your discretion as you listen and

46:06

as always take care of yourself.

46:08

So the producer I work with, Spencer

46:09

at Taboo Music, he is

46:12

unbelievable. He's got awesome tattoos. One

46:20

of my closest friends now, he is

46:22

one of the most grateful and like humble people I've ever

46:25

met, which are two of the characteristics

46:27

that Muslims are supposed to fight to become. It's people

46:29

like him who now we have conversations

46:31

after two years of working together about Islam and he

46:34

asks me conversations. But when I walked to the studio,

46:36

I'll be honest, I was like this dude is tatted

46:38

and he's a white drummer. He's in

46:40

the music industry. I was like, I'm going to careful what

46:42

I say cause I don't know him yet and

46:44

what health is . Now I'm actually seeing it come to fruition

46:47

like a home a , which is really interesting. Who , because

46:49

that decision I made to not say anything

46:52

but do what I do and do it at a

46:54

high level, then nobody can question

46:56

that and be polite and be kind and be

46:58

patient and just be myself

47:01

as much as I can and try to be

47:03

a good person. Even if I'm not

47:06

at the time. And then when they find

47:08

out you're Muslim, it's very

47:10

hard for them to go back to the judgment they had.

47:12

They heard just from the media because now

47:15

I can definitely say that if someone stands

47:17

in front of Spencer and

47:19

says, Oh, those Muslims are crazy. Yeah

47:21

. He'll be like I don't know about that... Because

47:24

his reference is me. And from what he's told

47:26

me, he has a good reflection of Muslims, which makes

47:28

super happy,

47:30

He didn't go into it with like the stereotype

47:32

in mind that I pitted you against him necessarily,

47:34

in the first place.

47:35

But one of my friends who just really close

47:37

to me told me later on now we're

47:39

like best friends. But he's told me when we first

47:41

started talking that he found

47:43

out I was a Muslim and was like apprehensive and

47:46

so these experiences, so it's a shame that that's still

47:48

a reality and he's not an ignorant person.

47:50

So he was like, this doesn't line

47:52

up. But that's what he was apprehensive and then went , this

47:54

doesn't line up. And then so he asked questions.

47:57

Cool . But not everybody's like that. And that's what made me realize

47:59

that it's all conversations.

48:01

It's individual interactions and relationship

48:04

building. And to me now, this year

48:06

I've seen more , more progress than I saw

48:08

picketing that I saw debating

48:11

because some random person that you know

48:13

on your end of your network comes up and says,

48:15

I think Muslims are crazy. Are these Muslims are dangerous

48:17

or we need to get them out of here, whatever.

48:19

And then there's three things that

48:22

the person hearing that that you were Spencer could do.

48:24

You can either agree, you

48:26

could stay quiet and disagree

48:28

or you could outwardly say, I

48:31

dunno cause I know quite a few Muslims or I know

48:33

if I can at least get a few people who are

48:35

close to me who aren't Muslim or advocating

48:37

for like advocate or just stay quiet

48:40

and go.. I don't know about that guy.

48:42

Yeah, that just said that. Yeah, because that

48:44

tells me more about his understanding cause my understanding

48:47

of Muslims is very different. So that tells me more about his

48:49

ignorance. And that to me is progress because

48:51

now that when they walk around, their perception

48:54

of me is very different. But I can't

48:56

control the conversation so I know they're going

48:58

to talk about it . They're going to reference me and reference the other

49:00

Muslims they interact with as the entire Muslim

49:02

community. That's what the media does. They pick two people,

49:05

they picked two instances and they send , that's the community.

49:07

Yeah. So for me it was like how do we flip that? We're

49:09

fighting media. Totally. You're fighting the best,

49:11

most huge. Yeah. So for me I was like,

49:13

just do it the same thing. It's like the perception,

49:16

just don't expect it to happen overnight . So when

49:18

I go into the studios and stuff,

49:20

work ethic first, but I've been

49:22

back , I've become better at saying like if something, if someone

49:25

brings like alcohol into the, into the studio.

49:27

At first I used to say, Hey, we're working

49:29

and now I say, Hey, I don't drink

49:32

and want in the studio cause we're also working

49:34

because drugs and alcohol are a very common thing. People get

49:36

high before they record, right, to get loosened up, etcetera,

49:38

etcetera. But I'm realizing that if you put

49:41

that work ethic first and show them

49:43

that Muslims are me as a Muslim is as hardworking

49:45

and I try my best and be respectful, etcetera. They

49:48

do respect you . Yeah. Now right behind Spencer

49:50

and the studio, I was actually building respect. Yeah,

49:53

exactly. I pull out my prayer mat. I'm like, I'm just gonna pray

49:55

real quick. Then we can get started and he's like cool. Turns

49:57

down the music. So now this year I realized that

49:59

it's working cause I, that's cool. That's really cool. For

50:01

a long time. I didn't want to push my music

50:03

in Muslim community because I didn't

50:06

really want it to be typecasted. If

50:08

you say yes, I was like a Muslim rapper and

50:10

then where others wouldn't necessarily listen to it cause they're like,

50:12

Oh well I'm just a Muslim. So exactly. It's not gonna

50:14

make any sense. Yeah. But now I'm realizing

50:17

that I've, that all had to do with my writing and

50:19

how I presented my , my marketing and my brand. So

50:21

if I don't write that way then you hear what I'm making.

50:23

You probably don't even think I'm like

50:26

a Brown kid who'sparents are from the Caribbean.

50:28

Yeah andI grew up in Brampton and that,

50:30

that's starting to become real to me cause like I could hear myself

50:32

back now and separate myself and be like,

50:35

no, this doesn't sound like , yeah

50:37

, Muslim industry song . So now I'm

50:39

kind of leaning back. I'm actually, I'm

50:41

want to share it with a Muslim and now I'm understanding

50:43

that the audience that's going to understand everything

50:45

I'm saying like 50%

50:48

of what I'm saying is going to be Muslims .

50:49

And like you said in a lot of ways you build your foundation

50:52

and then you can go there with people that know you.

50:54

Exactly. And now I'm comfortable with it going in

50:56

different directions because I know that what I'm

50:58

making, it's more universal than one community.

51:00

Okay. Let's go over to the masculinity thing.

51:02

Yeah. I'm so curious what you have to say about

51:04

how have you formed your masculinity and what

51:06

now informs that and is there anything

51:09

that you kind of want to say about it to other people

51:11

about either your own journey or...

51:12

I will say that for me to

51:14

be a good Muslim, like The Prophet, he

51:17

said he was sent, we

51:19

have a full religion, Our religion's

51:22

like over a billion people in it. The

51:24

Islamic empire is one of the most innovative

51:26

progressive ever from like eye

51:28

surgery to arithmetic.

51:30

It's built itself out and we have things we're

51:32

supposed to do pray, supposed to go to Hajji, you're supposed to give to charity. You

51:34

do these things and it always blows

51:37

my mind that the prophet said that

51:39

he was sent to humanity

51:42

to guide good character

51:45

cause like he wasn't sent to prescribe prayer.

51:47

That wasn't the sole purpose. So if your character

51:50

is strong, right, that has nothing to do

51:52

with praying five times a day necessarily

51:54

when you're talking about humanity, like if you're doing all of the praying

51:57

and stuff like that, but your character isn't, it doesn't get

51:59

anything. Then he like he's

52:01

the one that we follow for how to live our lives,

52:03

which means so much more to me cause that's what

52:05

you're talking about. Like humility and respect

52:08

and great gratitude and gratefulness. And

52:10

for me in my everyday life I

52:12

don't think about it as like, Oh I'm Muslim. So I

52:14

do this this and this, I think about it as I'm human

52:16

and as a Muslim this is how you're supposed to be human.

52:18

And so being kind to my mother is

52:20

not just because I'm Muslim , it's because Islam

52:23

tells me that that's going to be a good human.

52:28

Yeah. Masculinity-wise, my

52:30

music, which is I think it's a very simple

52:33

place to start. I realized that I

52:35

couldn't rap on like straight hip hop instrumentals

52:37

on like guitar and piano and it's because

52:40

you can go different places with it and it can evoke different

52:42

emotions. Nowadays and hip hop

52:44

you can totally do that, but it tends to start with a lot

52:46

of drums and a repeated beat that

52:48

you can like hold onto and just flow with

52:51

a lot of rock music or folk music or

52:53

acoustic music in my opinion, more

52:55

about what emotion you're evoking

52:58

and how your words line up with that chord progression

53:00

from the piano can hit a certain sound that makes people

53:02

feel sad or you can hit a certain sound for

53:05

it that makes you feel happy to go

53:07

with that. Exactly. So if I want to go somewhere

53:09

emotional with my lyrics, my message, then

53:11

I fit better on these types of instruments

53:13

or these types of sound . And with that came

53:15

the realization that the stuff I

53:17

talk about is not necessarily like

53:20

quote unquote masculine because

53:22

I have no problem talking about

53:24

crying. I'm talking about like a social norm

53:26

masculine. So like crying or

53:29

going from one song where I'm like super confident

53:31

when another song where I'm like breaking down and

53:34

if the lyrics , so make me feel that for myself

53:36

when I write it then from either not good enough. So

53:38

a lot of my stuff is emotionally based and I realized

53:40

that you had growing up a lot of the males

53:43

around me and the guys around me, I have

53:45

enough of a sample size I think to say

53:47

that emotion is not at the forefront of

53:49

what understanding emotions

53:52

first . Yeah . It's not at the forefront of what guy might

53:54

think about, at least in my circles in Canada

53:57

in 2019

53:58

And was that true for you when you were younger or have

54:00

you always been a little bit more then like hyper

54:03

emotional?

54:04

Like I take stuff like now I'm only learning

54:06

like working and being married and just like becoming

54:09

more of an adult, like a grown person

54:11

that there's some things I do too much of.

54:13

Like I overthink things. I let

54:16

things get to me that other people do

54:18

or even that I do because

54:21

I realized that they're rooted in someone's character,

54:24

like someone disrespected me or

54:26

I disrespected someone and didn't realize

54:29

or I did realize I did it on purpose.

54:31

And I get super emotional about that for like

54:34

days at a time. I'm sure a lot of people do, but I just

54:36

realized that when I look at my sample size around me

54:39

that like my brothers don't necessarily

54:41

think that with eight it's easy for them to brush

54:43

it off. And then when I married with, and

54:46

my wife has two other sisters and my mom has

54:48

three girls, they take that situation

54:50

and that emotion in a every very different direction.

54:53

And I'm like in between.

54:55

Interesting.

54:56

Very. And then I just realized that like I did a

54:58

masculinity... Sex masculinity

55:00

and something in sport in my

55:02

third year.

55:04

Cool.

55:04

And it was interesting because it was, I l ove sport,

55:06

but really i t's, i t's social norms

55:08

that y ou t alking about. And then I realized,

55:11

I m ean like this in between kind of

55:13

worlds. So it comes out i n my music. That's where I'm

55:15

probably the most honest and raw.

55:18

Is that because you just, yeah,

55:20

like there's not a lot of men who would have been

55:22

emotional around you giving you like an example

55:25

of kind of how to live that way or they just didn't actually

55:28

or...

55:29

I haven't deepen to think about that. But now that I, if I

55:31

think about it like a surface level probably,

55:34

I think I was more, and then I'll just come

55:36

back to that verse from the Quran. The state of mankind

55:38

will never change if it until it changes to their own hearts. I

55:41

think take that in the context of there's Wars

55:43

going on. There's literally genocide

55:45

going on right now and like central Africa,

55:48

unbelievable things happening in Sudan and all

55:50

over the world and then you think about changing

55:53

state of your own heart and shit and then you think, okay, the

55:55

state of mankind would change. The war will stop.

55:58

I stopped thinking that way cause I was like, I mean

56:00

the Wars , he goes die . It takes you focusing on

56:02

yourself and millions of people doing

56:04

that for years. If

56:06

you're talking about trying to directly stop a war,

56:10

people's bad intentions and like oppression.

56:12

So I don't think about it in that large of a context.

56:14

As much as those things upset me and I want to do something about

56:16

it, I always think, okay, how is my music going to help me have

56:19

people and I really want, I think through my music,

56:21

I'm trying to go like that culture in a where

56:24

all of these things we just covered. Everything we've talked about

56:26

is understood and spoken about

56:29

because I think there's a community there. They're just not

56:31

centralized or they're in pockets.

56:33

There's like people to get here , people doing it here. Yeah, so I'm

56:35

hoping my music as some sort of bridge. Cool to

56:37

do that and set that culture.

56:39

Yeah, it sounds like it's working.

56:40

Hopefully... I got more music to put out so

56:42

it's so exciting.

56:43

Yeah, definitely a journey.

56:45

Well, yeah, thanks so much for doing

56:47

what you're doing, this is so great... one o the

56:49

better like conversations in podcasts that I've done.

56:52

There's some things in there that I haven't been able to like I've not

56:54

a chance to say yet. Please.

56:57

Thank you.

56:57

Having a lot of really great perspectives and it , I think we

56:59

covered a lot of cool things too.

57:01

It's awesome.

57:01

Thank you. It's great.

57:03

Check out Raz on Instagram @Razmusic.co and

57:07

please share the podcast if you like

57:09

it or me and follow the podcast,

57:11

Instagram @bodyandwinepodcast and

57:15

subscribing to the podcast on Apple podcasts

57:17

, Spotify or wherever you like to listen,

57:19

helps you stay tuned in to these shhmexi conversations

57:23

and listener call outs. Send

57:26

in up to five minutes of your voice recording,

57:28

something to say on the general themes of sexuality

57:31

and spirituality, whether formerly produced

57:33

or just casual musings. Feel free

57:35

to send in and we'll include as we

57:37

are able and at our discretion in upcoming

57:39

episodes, contact me, Charlie gray

57:42

on our Instagram account and

57:44

or send in your queries and entries

57:46

to our email podcast@Charliethegray

57:48

.com -

57:51

Gray is spelled with an a. Okay,

57:53

that's it. Catch you later, folks. Love

57:56

.