0:00

Now we're recording anyways.

0:02

That's a , so now we're good. Now. We're good. So should we

0:04

rehash the whole, like mother free to

0:06

candles, candle conversation, or state

0:09

free to say free to, yeah . We're in

0:11

the presence of Saint Frieda and tequila. It

0:13

is going down really easily. Yeah . Cheers.

0:16

Cheers. Hello.

0:23

Again, friends. Today's

0:25

episode is extra special. As I am

0:27

sharing with you a conversation between myself

0:30

and one of my closest longest

0:32

friends, Olivia per side, we

0:34

bent in a small church, Christmas production many

0:36

years ago, and bonded over reading lines

0:39

and goofing off before prayer circle. Over

0:42

the last two decades, I have watched her take

0:44

to the stage growing into her power

0:46

duo lungs as a musician and using her

0:49

voice for change beyond the spotlight. Today,

0:52

we open up about coming out as non-Christian

0:54

to our families growing into strong

0:57

women that support each other along the way, why

0:59

it's important to challenge and question

1:01

your own beliefs, all this and

1:03

more here and now on body

1:06

and why body

1:32

of those listings is the temple of the Holy spirit.

1:34

And together we desire and agreement back

1:37

it isn't good health. Welcome

1:44

to body and wine conversations on

1:46

sex and spirituality. My

1:48

name is Charlie gray, and I'm sitting here

1:50

with Lydia Persa . I

1:56

don't even know where to really begin how we know

1:58

each other. I mean, I guess we

2:00

know each other from middle school

2:02

church through high school,

2:04

we went to Bramley Baptist church together.

2:07

Can you take a guess at what year we met?

2:10

Oh my God. Hey

2:12

, what , what year? 2006.

2:15

Wow. So it would be maybe 2001, 2002.

2:17

We were 11 or 12 years old because it was the

2:20

crazy thousands. Yeah. Yeah. Y

2:23

two K book. Oh my God, shit.

2:26

I have this memory that we met

2:28

in the youth auditorium and I was wearing a frilly

2:30

dress. And you were wearing a frilly dress, but maybe neither

2:33

of us were wearing a frilly dress , I think

2:35

maybe were wearing dresses. Cause we were , yeah,

2:38

we both came from denominations where that was more common

2:41

and we didn't really dressing down. Wasn't

2:43

really a thing in our churches. I feel like we bonded

2:45

over that. Yeah. I remember you being really friendly.

2:48

We were like doing a production of something

2:50

at church. Yeah . That's how we got friends.

2:52

Yeah. I feel like we were

2:55

unique. Yeah. We were both really outgoing,

2:58

loud. Passionate.

3:00

Yeah. Like to like be in leadership roles.

3:02

Yeah. It's almost 20 years

3:04

through doing each other. If it is 12,001

3:06

. Whoa. Crazy.

3:08

You're right. That's fucking crazy.

3:11

Look at those stats. Jesus Christ. Yeah.

3:15

So yeah. Lydia and I are here to just

3:17

chit chat, random things

3:19

about sex and spirituality, because

3:21

I feel like literally you

3:24

and I could do a podcast on our own just

3:26

in terms of all the things that we could cover and talk about.

3:29

So, yeah. Welcome. Thanks for having me.

3:33

Okay . I want to jump into like, we were just

3:35

talking about

3:37

us, both chatting

3:40

within a year of each other. Both

3:42

of us in our own ways, ended up telling our

3:44

parents. Yep . That we're not

3:47

a Christian. It's

3:49

interesting. I don't know about you. So I've

3:51

told some people recently about that,

3:53

that I just came out to my parents

3:55

as not being Christian in the last six months. And

3:59

for me, that was harder than telling my parents that

4:01

I was queer, which

4:03

is fascinating to some people, but

4:06

also with a lot of my friends, there was a general

4:08

surprise of like, what, like how did you

4:10

not tell your parents earlier?

4:13

And I don't know , one question I would have for

4:15

you is like, why

4:19

did you wait that long to tell your parents? Was that

4:21

an intentional thing? Um,

4:24

I think, I guess

4:26

to preface like a lot of what I'm going to say

4:28

in the podcast is like, I'm

4:30

still very actively on

4:33

this journey of like just

4:35

the timelines, you know, the timelines

4:37

and like the dates and the years and the moments

4:39

and how old I was with like, when

4:42

things shifted for me when people

4:44

ask me , um, or usually

4:46

when I mentioned, cause no one in Toronto

4:48

really knows that I used to be really religious and I've been

4:50

here for 10 years. Yeah . Maybe people

4:52

from, from college. Cause I was like really

4:55

into Christianity when I was in college. But

4:57

what I generally say is

4:59

that I stopped

5:02

practicing Christianity when I was about

5:04

22, 23. And

5:06

now I'm 29. How many years

5:08

is that? Three, four, five, six, seven,

5:10

eight, nine. Yeah. That's crazy. And then I told

5:13

my parents what like last

5:15

year? Yeah. About a year ago. About a year ago. Yeah.

5:18

The reason why I actually say 22 , 23

5:20

is because that's where I lost my virginity. Oh,

5:23

interesting. That was such a turning point for

5:25

like, all right . I'm about

5:27

to like rock this guilt and shame

5:30

or just not even, you know?

5:32

Yeah. And the answer was obviously no. So

5:34

why did I wait long? I

5:36

mean, I think, I think the timing just projects

5:41

when I felt like it was like,

5:43

I was able to wear that the

5:45

most that I ever could, you

5:47

know, it was , uh , there was an issue with somebody

5:50

with some sexual misconduct. Yeah . And

5:53

um , in the church that both you and I went to exactly

5:55

in high school and high, you went there a

5:57

little bit after. Yeah. Right . Yeah.

5:59

I feel like you showed up too . Yeah . A little bit.

6:01

We definitely filtered out. You were definitely coming through when

6:04

you were in L'Oreal . Yeah . And lived

6:06

with a bunch of those guys at Laurier . Yeah . Yeah.

6:08

It's also funny to see st . Carola and seeing

6:10

you as Charlie, like , you know, but at

6:12

that point you were Carolyn. Yes, definitely.

6:16

Yeah. And that's a whole other topic. I know. I

6:18

know. Um , we can go

6:20

there. I , we could totally. Yeah . But

6:22

yeah, I, there was a case of sexual

6:24

misconduct at our church that has

6:26

happened in the last couple of years. I

6:29

mean, two max, two years

6:32

with someone that we were both very close to.

6:34

And when discussing with my family, as we

6:37

shared in disappointments

6:39

the morning, the

6:42

, uh , betrayal from

6:45

all of this, from that person as they were like

6:47

kind of an honorary family member,

6:50

there was no way of really

6:53

, um , reflecting and

6:57

being honest about it without digging into

6:59

the roots of why

7:01

Christianity and organized religion

7:03

are really toxic. Right. And like

7:05

the environments that could have potentially

7:08

fostered this kind of behavior

7:10

or enabled it to happen in a way. Yeah

7:12

. Like there's no way of just deal with it. Well, because

7:14

it's connecting those things. Yeah . You know,

7:16

especially our denomination , um,

7:18

where you couldn't a big, this

7:20

is like, I'd probably like answering and like elaborating

7:23

on I'm off, I'm off, go off

7:25

the rail . But

7:27

one of the circles back in the end, if

7:30

I retrace like the moment I told my parents

7:32

that I was no longer Christian and we were in

7:34

a pho restaurant in Toronto and

7:37

we were getting food and we're talking about the issue

7:39

of this person just

7:41

really fucking up and like betraying

7:44

trust and being really inappropriate with young girls.

7:46

And I , before I hesitated, I was not Christian.

7:49

I said, well, you know, obviously

7:51

it's going to be a problem when you go to a church

7:54

that does not allow for

7:56

women to be pastors. So

7:58

we have no women who are in leadership

8:01

roles and we have no women who

8:03

are examples of leadership

8:05

and religious leadership on top

8:07

of that, I'm saying that because you and I

8:10

used to be religious role models

8:12

and leaders, we used to have small groups

8:14

and we used to teach kids about the Bible. Yeah . Yeah. I'd

8:17

be like, let me tell you to like kids really accomplished

8:19

, but

8:22

we were, we had, we had fucking good

8:24

intentions, man. Yeah, we did. I

8:26

mean, and we were , I think in our own way, actually

8:28

we're really good. Like in some ways I'm like the

8:30

people that put us in charge, it's like,

8:32

what the fuck were they thinking on the one hand? But also

8:35

it was amazing. I think for us as to

8:38

develop our leadership skills and yeah,

8:40

I think it was saying a lot about how great we are. Oh

8:43

my God. But we like led groups together.

8:45

That was fire. That was fire . If

8:47

I had like role models like that, which

8:50

I guess we kind of did, there were a couple people who

8:52

stand out in my mind, but honestly,

8:55

I don't think I had a role model. Like

8:58

I was like, we were like, you were like,

9:01

I didn't have a female

9:03

role model in my life who was like super

9:05

unapologetic in like the most

9:07

fun, basic way of just being loud

9:09

and taking lots of space and like picking

9:13

religious, political, socio

9:15

fights and arguments with men. Yeah.

9:17

I just, I wasn't seeing that. And I knew that

9:20

you and I were like running around causing shit.

9:22

Yeah . Like, and , and just cause

9:24

we always had each other. And

9:26

so we were just kind of, I think we were like kind of fearless.

9:29

Yeah .

9:29

I think that's, what's so interesting. I was reflecting

9:32

on this a little bit this morning before coming over

9:35

about how, I mean,

9:37

you and I have talked about, I think how grateful we are for our

9:39

friendship in a lot of ways. But I wondered,

9:43

like I really think that I was able to

9:45

not only move through the church and life

9:48

in a really, I think powerful way because

9:50

I was friends with you, but even more

9:52

so I was able to come out of church

9:55

and come out of church and come out

9:57

of church and come out at church, like over the years, like, you

10:00

know, undoing and unlearning and then relearning

10:02

and reshaping my life because of

10:04

your friendship, because there was this kind

10:06

of always in the back of my mind, like even if

10:08

we weren't like living in the same city and we

10:10

haven't been like for the last 10 years,

10:13

11 years, even that

10:15

there was always this other person who's also

10:18

going along a journey. That's like, maybe

10:20

we're both individually going through it in slightly

10:22

different ways. But coming from that same place

10:24

of like trying to live authentically,

10:27

giving ourselves and each other permission to

10:29

figure that out and come out as

10:31

we are. Do you know what I mean? And

10:33

if I went through that by myself yeah. At

10:35

least coming from that church background, I think

10:38

it would have been a lot more difficult for me. Or it would

10:40

have felt disconnected like my life,

10:42

I don't know. Now it feels all coherent kind of having

10:44

someone who also came out of that and

10:47

who's still close friend. Yeah . Totally.

10:50

So what you just said, I feel like I can

10:52

relate that. Cause you know, as we unpack

10:54

who we are as people, you know,

10:57

you're not 30 yet. Right.

10:58

You're turning 30 this year. Yeah . Both are 89.

11:01

Yeah. Just as we approach 30 and

11:03

a hundred and whatever, it's like, I

11:06

associate it with what you said with like trauma.

11:09

And like if we didn't have each other,

11:11

you wouldn't have like a link to the history.

11:14

And I think about this one partner that I had, who

11:17

we broke up and he blocked me from all social

11:19

media and I'd probably never see him again. Cause we like

11:21

stopped working in the same space and stopped being

11:24

in the band that we were , we were both in and he

11:26

was like extremely emotionally and verbally abusive

11:28

to me. And now

11:30

there's no link to our history. Huh.

11:33

Huh. And to me that's like, or

11:35

an element of trauma, like, because

11:37

the actual infliction of the

11:39

action and the development of the

11:41

memory is obviously part of the

11:43

trauma, but then really

11:46

feeling silenced in it and

11:49

being like screaming in a glass box.

11:53

So I just feel like I'm so thankful equally

11:55

for having a link to that history and that

11:57

time that's fucking huge time

11:59

in our lives, our lives

12:01

formative developmental years

12:05

from the time of baby to teenage

12:07

twenties toward twenties. Yeah.

12:10

Yeah. There is something exactly like having

12:12

even the constant person

12:14

to kind of like transition that trauma and help

12:16

weave it and make sense in your life. It's

12:19

so hard when it's disconnected cut off

12:21

and then you're a different person. Yeah. I

12:24

forgot what else? Well you asked me about like why it took

12:26

so long. Cause it felt, Oh

12:28

yeah. Cause I was addressing the issue and then I

12:30

was like, okay, I'm about to like

12:32

really dig into the church right now.

12:35

And I don't believe in that construct

12:38

that institution anymore. So

12:40

I'm just going to fucking lay it out. And I was , and

12:42

I was like, basically issues

12:44

like this with the, with the sexual

12:47

abuse and the abuse and power

12:49

that happened because that, that, that, that,

12:51

that, and you know, anything

12:53

in the Bible, like I literally had said, even the

12:55

Bible, there are still, there aren't enough

12:58

female role models. Um,

13:00

women are , are , men are always in power. They're always

13:02

objectifying women. And

13:04

then my dad snapped

13:07

because the Bible is law King.

13:10

That's it like don't question the Bible. And

13:12

when he had like a literal interpretation of it, for the most

13:14

part, like not really believing as much

13:16

in like, Oh, this section of it is myth. And

13:18

this section of it is like, no, it's

13:20

all fat . It's all gone. Word

13:23

word . Yeah .

13:24

Yes. I'm

13:27

just going to pause here to let you know that body

13:29

and wine podcast encourages guests

13:31

to freely discuss their experiences,

13:34

ideas and opinions. These beliefs

13:36

and stories are representative of the individuals

13:38

that share them amongst laughs and bits

13:41

of wisdom. These conversations can include

13:43

varying challenges related to belief and

13:45

sexuality. Please use your discretion

13:47

as you listen and as always take

13:50

care of yourself, okay, let's get

13:52

back to it.

13:56

And so I just the Bible and

13:59

that was like, he freaked out and

14:02

I mean throw in many years

14:05

of my dad reacting like that with

14:07

me being where, where I was an am

14:09

at , I was like actually straight up and not Christian

14:12

anymore. Right. So like basically

14:14

you negating my

14:17

understanding of how institutionalized

14:19

religion and Christianity have bred so

14:22

much systemic

14:25

sexual misconduct, abuse,

14:28

everything, sexism,

14:30

like it's all these things. I'm just

14:32

going to go ahead and tell you that your argument

14:34

towards it being God's word doesn't

14:36

matter to me. Yeah . Right. Cause I'm like,

14:38

it just takes that out of the equation. It's way more

14:40

authentic than from your cause . You're not going to then sit

14:43

there and argue theology with someone when you don't actually

14:45

believe that solidly anymore. So I was like, cut

14:47

the shit. Don't believe in it. Yeah . And that

14:49

was a whole other level of the conversation

14:51

afterwards. But it led to that that was kind of the sequence

14:53

of it happened without at least that much planning.

14:56

Exactly. So , so different. It's different.

14:59

It was , it wasn't like we, we didn't

15:01

go to foe . Right. For me to tell my parents.

15:03

Right . It happened in the moment. And , and

15:05

why hadn't you told them before that? Were

15:08

you ever planning at least beforehand to

15:10

tell them? I mean,

15:13

no, because

15:16

my dad, okay. So my, the way that religion

15:18

is kind of projected onto me at this stage

15:20

of my life from my parents is

15:23

different between each parent. My mom talks

15:25

about religion and her religious walk very personally.

15:28

She's like, I meditated, I did this,

15:30

I did this. It's never like, and

15:33

collected her . Like we always pray for you.

15:35

Like in every card they write it . They're like, we're praying

15:37

for you. And to me that's like so fucking positive.

15:39

Yeah. So I was never going to like

15:42

that. Didn't fuck with me. Yeah . My dad,

15:45

my dad has always been, like, I

15:48

always knew that God had a plan for you. Like

15:50

I always knew that you would be doing

15:52

amazing things because God had planned for you again,

15:54

really positive. Honestly like being

15:57

in the music industry. I really

16:00

respect people's connection to God

16:02

because I feel like when it comes to being

16:04

in a career, that's very self centered,

16:07

you know, naturally it's like using the word

16:09

selfish in positive ways. It's like, it's very selfish,

16:11

very self centered. It's like very much you, you, you

16:13

you're on stage or in the spotlight having an element.

16:15

Like, God, I like really respect

16:18

that. Cause it takes you out of you. It takes you out of whoever's

16:20

clapping for you in that moment. Let

16:23

alone like all the black music

16:25

that I love and know that came from God.

16:27

Yeah. On religion. So

16:30

everything was positive. Yes. I'd go to

16:32

church on all of

16:34

the holidays and roll my eyes.

16:36

And I really disliked the pastor. That's

16:39

at the church right now. Cause I feel like he's super manipulative.

16:42

Um, and really like dangerously

16:44

old school and right wing. Yeah . But

16:47

it didn't affect me. And I had, I still listed

16:49

people at church that I go and see, yeah, your brother

16:51

was there working there. So

16:54

just , there was no reason for me to like stir the pot

16:57

and there there's like elements

16:59

of sharing that information

17:01

with my family. That's a

17:03

bit regretful I have to say, but

17:05

I'm working through that because

17:09

I would just hate to cause my

17:11

parents like grief

17:13

and worry and I had already, I already knew my dad

17:15

worried about me. Yeah. In ways

17:17

that I was just like, you're crazy. I'm super

17:19

safe. I'm really comfortable. I'm really

17:21

happy to then just

17:24

like shake that in such

17:26

a heavy way. I

17:28

just, it's kinda , it's the kinda shit that

17:30

it's like, he's going to be a goddess deathbed and be like,

17:33

fuck, I just, I, that like

17:35

breaks my heart. Yeah. Yeah . So

17:39

I'm going to , I'm going to try and like, cause

17:41

I don't, I personally don't believe that there

17:43

isn't a God and I'm hoping

17:46

that in some way I can connect that with him

17:49

and be like, listen, I

17:51

still believe there's something out there. Yeah .

17:54

We look at it from such different angles.

17:55

Exactly. And maybe that will help

17:58

them believe that I might go to heaven at some point.

18:00

Yeah. I don't really care

18:02

about that. I just,

18:05

As much as I'm going to approach

18:07

this huge next stage of my

18:09

life with I'm

18:11

happy and that's, and that's what I'm focusing

18:14

on right now. That's why I'm not being religious right now. I

18:16

want them to be happy. I want them to live

18:19

freely in their sixties,

18:21

you know? So it's, it's difficult.

18:24

It's difficult

18:25

Because you're wavering the line of like, that's

18:28

the tricky point. And I think I found this as well

18:30

of like, I mean, I at

18:32

least knew for me for a long time. I wanted

18:34

them to know, but I didn't know at what point

18:37

I could do that because for many years I still held

18:39

a lot of bitterness about religion. I still

18:41

have some of that for sure. It comes up at certain points.

18:44

But for the most part, I think I've healed through not

18:46

just living in constant bitterness of religion

18:49

and that my relationship with that belief system.

18:51

And yeah . And so I didn't want, when I

18:53

told my parents for it to come from

18:55

a place of bitterness or for it to,

18:58

for there to be any part of me that was satisfied

19:00

if I broke their hearts, you know? Yeah. Because

19:03

I, I also recognized like

19:06

that it did break their heart and it

19:08

probably still does. And that at least

19:10

for my dad, there's also a sense of, he really,

19:12

in some of these conversations has said,

19:14

you know, like I'm a failure. How

19:16

did I fail? He really internalizes

19:19

my belief system and how

19:21

I live my life as a reflection of his

19:23

success or failure, which is, I

19:26

mean, fascinating in of itself. And like

19:28

I came to come to this place of telling my parents

19:30

through some significant therapy I was doing

19:32

on this like area of spiritual trauma in my

19:34

life and just came at a time

19:36

when I knew I needed to do it in order to break out of

19:38

other issues that I was dealing with

19:40

to kind of live in full authenticity with them.

19:43

Cause you were like studying with someone, right?

19:44

Like you were saying, the person from the podcast.

19:47

Yeah. I was working with this woman, Jamie Lee Finch,

19:49

who focuses on spiritual

19:51

trauma. And really she does this work

19:54

called body narrative therapy, which looks

19:57

at what are the stories

19:59

that your literal physical body,

20:01

which is you, like, we're not separate from our bodies.

20:03

And that's interesting language that we use in our culture

20:06

as well, understanding that our body

20:08

is us and we are our body and what

20:10

have we been told and what

20:12

roles have we lived into stories we've been given

20:15

what we've inherited physically, culturally

20:18

over the course of our lives and how

20:20

does that affect us in how we live? And

20:23

so when you have something as heavy

20:25

as like, especially like really conservative

20:27

religion and especially during your formative years,

20:30

that affects you in your body

20:32

in such significant ways. So it's understanding the

20:34

stories that your body has been given and how

20:36

to either live into those or undo

20:39

some of those stories. So that could be anything from

20:41

like genetic history that

20:43

you have to, the role

20:45

that you played in your family, the physical

20:48

area, you grew up to where your grandparents came from,

20:50

like his past trauma.

20:52

Yeah, exactly. And good and bad.

20:55

Like what are all the different elements of like , what makes

20:57

me me and as just acknowledging

20:59

your physical body and like how it's informed your

21:01

life. Yeah. And then like spirituality

21:03

is huge, hugely a part of that. Um, and that you

21:05

can't heal your mind unless you really

21:07

understand what your body has been through and

21:10

then kind of weave those together. Like bring them into

21:12

conversation with each other. So cool.

21:14

Yeah. It was really cool. And like for a whole

21:16

host of reasons, just me

21:19

telling my parents that I'm not a Christian was kind

21:21

of like I needed it for

21:23

a lot of my own personal healing. I think to

21:25

live fully into who I

21:27

am as a woman, as a person

21:30

, uh, in partnership with other people,

21:32

I felt like I couldn't fully be myself unfiltered

21:35

until I with a romantic partner, even

21:37

until I was able to tell like my

21:39

family, like the most intimate unit in my life,

21:41

like who I am and do

21:44

it in a way that was like unapologetic,

21:47

but still loving, you know? Uh

21:49

, but not needing anything from them at the same time.

21:51

Yeah. I'm curious to know. I haven't met up with my

21:53

parents yet since that the , I sent them an email

21:55

and they responded well to it initially,

21:58

which is great. But just

22:00

coming back to that place of like, I

22:03

worked on this with my therapist that I, I knew

22:05

I needed to tell them to , for my own wellbeing.

22:07

And I would do that in his loving away as I knew how

22:09

to do. But then ultimately

22:12

if they're going to be broken hearted about it, it's

22:14

not that I can't care about it, but I can't

22:17

carry that burden or assume what they

22:19

need that's for them to go and

22:21

work out for themselves. And that's like

22:23

a hard line to try to, to come

22:25

to. It is the opposite

22:28

of trying to, what I did for years was trying to,

22:30

I think, protect them from that heartbreak,

22:33

which then led to inauthentic relationship,

22:35

which I think none of us want as well,

22:37

because then I was also living in heartbreak, you know?

22:40

And then we were just dancing around subjects

22:42

at the dinner table. Like no one was being honest with

22:44

each other, you know? Yeah .

22:46

I find it so interesting what you're saying, because to me

22:49

it's so unfortunate that

22:52

the journey that you had ,

22:53

You've been on to like really connect

22:55

with your current identity.

22:57

Yeah .

22:57

No longer being religious. You

23:00

can't really share that part. Right.

23:02

Because both of our families

23:05

don't really know anyone else. Who's not

23:07

religious. Like they've really, and we didn't,

23:09

we didn't growing now and we built this

23:11

bubble and , and I just, the unfortunate

23:14

things at the journey and all the stuff

23:16

you just said about connecting with bodies. Yeah. My

23:18

mom's got arthritis. My dad's got

23:21

bad knees. They've been working physical jobs

23:23

for 30 years,

23:24

15 to 30 years of their lives. And it's just like,

23:27

I know they can connect with that. I know that

23:29

people who would still want

23:31

to pursue Christianity,

23:33

religion, institutionalized , religion, they

23:36

could benefit from unpacking

23:39

and still continue practicing. Yeah

23:41

. Yeah. It's just so funny that it's so cut and dry

23:44

and that you do have to walk into those conversations, like

23:46

being like fortress of protection,

23:48

because you're going to get hurt by your life

23:50

givers, but there's so

23:53

much more, it's like, I'm an alcoholic

23:56

and there's like so many reasons as to why,

23:58

like I'm not actually not called out , but like, just to tell you

24:00

that. Yeah . And then you're like, well, why?

24:02

And it's like, well, I just am . And you're like, okay,

24:04

well I don't really get it. And they don't really

24:06

get it. They don't really get it. Yeah . And that's

24:08

another thing that I'm always re

24:11

coming back to is this, it's

24:13

kind of cool that you're in some ways, trying to think

24:16

through how do I connect with my dad and like

24:18

your dad in the sense that like, okay, you

24:20

guys are both conceptualizing

24:23

some form of God from very

24:25

different angles, from very different perspectives. And

24:27

in some ways maybe in a completely

24:30

different gut, you know, like in some ways. Yeah

24:32

. But trying to find that point of connection, because I think,

24:34

I don't know where I'm going to find that yet with my parents.

24:37

And I think I'm somehow always

24:40

teetering this line of, I

24:42

think in a way coming to terms with the fact that I might really

24:44

never find that middle ground. Yeah.

24:48

Because I really think my parents don't know

24:50

me. And I think that that's the thing that they struggle with as

24:52

well. They don't really know how I think

24:54

that I have gone so

24:57

far in my life away from

24:59

what they know that they don't quite know

25:01

what to do with me, you know? And it's

25:05

a bit sad, I think in some ways, but

25:08

maybe we'll find that, but I think we just definitely

25:10

wouldn't find it if I was, if I was lying

25:12

to them. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Feeding back

25:15

into that version of them that you want

25:17

to uphold that it is, it

25:19

is unfortunate. Like in terms of you talking

25:21

about this is what's bringing you happiness.

25:23

Like I also feel, I

25:26

dunno , every year of my life in the last 10 years, I just feel

25:28

more and more the healthiest version of myself

25:30

than I have ever been. And then it doesn't

25:32

mean that there's no longer hard things. There've been some fucked

25:34

up things that have been happening in the last few years. And

25:37

some of the decisions that I've made to

25:39

be more authentic have brought

25:41

the challenge, but I've

25:44

faced it more and more with authenticity. And

25:46

that's, what's Brit made me so healthy,

25:48

so strong. And I can't

25:50

share a lot of that with my parents again. And

25:52

it's, it's heavy to hear you say that cause I agree

25:55

and connect with it. And I'm like, how the fuck

25:57

am I about to be honest with any

26:00

relationship in my life and

26:02

feed into my truths and

26:05

not into someone else's version of their

26:07

truth for me. Yeah. Like generally

26:09

relationships, romantic friendships.

26:12

Yeah . Work. If I don't have that

26:14

with my family, I don't think a lot of people have

26:16

that. But I think knowing where we've

26:18

come from, it's like, I'm just like connecting

26:21

dots as you're talking. Huh? Yeah.

26:24

That's going to bleed through. Yeah. It's going to come through.

26:27

Yeah. It's also connected, but

26:29

I think, I don't know, going back to, even in some

26:31

ways our friendship, it's interesting

26:33

because I also feel like, Hmm

26:36

, what

26:38

am I trying to say? I feel more and more in

26:40

my life now that I'm unfiltered.

26:43

Yeah.

26:44

And that's been really good for me because I

26:46

would say maybe for a lot of my life I was

26:48

unfiltered or I was trying to get there, but I would ,

26:50

I always have that guilt about it or I would always feel like

26:52

shit, I was too low

26:53

As a woman or shit like that. Guy's

26:55

not going to be attracted to me because I said, what I think,

26:58

or like I laughed too loud or fuck in church.

27:00

I said this thing and everyone felt awkward at the meeting

27:02

because you know, like, but we have

27:04

been loud for a long time. And

27:07

I think that there's something super special in that.

27:09

And I think that's

27:12

what also makes us like a

27:14

beautiful, just uniquely in terms of who we are.

27:17

And I think it's a gift that helps other people

27:19

be authentic also. Yes.

27:21

You know , and of course, and in terms of , I think that's

27:23

also, maybe I don't know about you, but for me, trying

27:26

to be open with my family is also

27:29

trying to just as much as possible

27:31

live into creating culture

27:33

around the world and relationships

27:36

where we can be authentic

27:38

with each other. Yeah . And I know that that's

27:40

not possible for everyone. And so I feel really

27:43

blessed that even though it's really hard for me, I'm

27:45

still able to do it. Like I'm not, you know,

27:47

or at least I'm at a point in my life where I'm not going to get kicked out of

27:49

my house or I'm at a point in my life where if

27:52

my parents heard exactly who I am and they chose

27:54

to walk away from my relationship, which

27:56

it hasn't, but just, yeah, if

27:58

it did, I have chosen family, I have community

28:00

like not everyone has that. Yeah.

28:03

So I think that there's a part of me in my work

28:05

now in so many areas of my life

28:08

of just trying to create spaces where

28:10

we can be more honest with each other.

28:12

Yeah. And you do that. I see . I think

28:14

you really do that. And I think, I mean, even

28:16

just talking to you, I think it just fosters

28:18

a really honest conversation

28:21

connection. And you

28:23

know, I'm, I'm at a point in my life

28:26

where I'm

28:28

just realizing the connection, that

28:30

every moment in life has had

28:32

to bring me to where I am.

28:33

I am right now. And I think

28:35

There's no coincidences and there's, that's the

28:37

part of like religion. That's like, stayed like

28:39

everything has a purpose. And I believe

28:42

that. And I think that like, I'm totally

28:44

cool with believing that. Cause I just feel like life

28:46

is crazy. And

28:49

if I can put purpose in pain

28:52

and make it positive, I'll fucking,

28:55

I'm there . Like, but I just think that it's

28:57

probably surprising for people to hear

28:59

that you were so religiously

29:01

committed given how

29:03

open you are and how, how

29:06

strong you are facilitating that at the same

29:08

time. You feel you facilitated that while we

29:10

were doing church stuff too . Yeah.

29:13

Like I remember being in small groups and being like talking

29:16

to little women and being like,

29:18

how do you feel about that ? How's it make you feel like,

29:21

and then being excited about like our walk and

29:23

our faith and like just the little victories

29:26

and yeah. And, and always empowering.

29:28

We were always empowering women to be themselves.

29:31

Yeah. And so, and

29:33

that is a gift of her upbringing. Like, I

29:35

mean, I think we've talked about that before too, but that there were these

29:37

nuggets of like, okay, it wasn't all

29:40

bad. Like my relationship with the church

29:42

has literally been an abusive

29:45

relationship with a man it's like

29:47

this like ultimate man in my life that

29:49

I've tried to get away from and heal from. And

29:51

I could go on and on and on about that or

29:53

maybe two men, Jesus and the father are

29:56

three

30:02

[inaudible]

30:05

Today's podcast was recorded on the traditional

30:07

territory of many nations, including

30:09

the Mississaugas of the credit. The Anishinabek

30:11

the Chippewa, the Holden is shown a and the wind

30:14

at peoples . And it's now home to many diverse

30:16

nations in U S and may T peoples.

30:19

We also acknowledge that Toronto is covered by

30:21

treaty 13 with the Mississaugas

30:23

of the credit. No,

30:27

but I , um, but it's been interesting because

30:30

over the course of my life, trying to heal at a religion,

30:32

religion, you know, have had

30:34

several people who maybe they've been redefining

30:36

Christianity for themselves, which is awesome. I think

30:39

that Christianity redefined and

30:41

more like open and loving terms

30:43

is essential actually for the world in a lot

30:45

of ways, even though I'm ready to throw in the towel on all

30:48

guys , religion it's needed. And I totally

30:50

respect my Christian friends that are doing that. Yeah . Likewise.

30:53

Yeah. But for me, it's like, okay,

30:55

I can see these nuggets of like,

30:57

cause you know, some people are like, okay, but Jesus can

30:59

be really good. Or there's these different ways of looking at religion

31:01

or like whatever. Or there was all

31:03

these positives also in your life that came from religion

31:06

and I'm like, yeah, but it's

31:08

like, again, if I was in an abusive relationship

31:10

with someone, definitely there were

31:12

moments of love. Definitely. There were moments

31:14

of laughter and light or good

31:16

memories or good things growth that came out

31:19

of it, but it doesn't justify the relationship.

31:21

Yeah . That's been a helpful framework for me to learn

31:23

how to walk away from it. Cause it's like, okay , I can still take

31:26

the good stuff, but it doesn't mean I have

31:28

to like feel bad for saying that it was fucked

31:30

up, you know, in a way. Totally agree with

31:32

that. Yeah. I feel like I'm like of the mine

31:34

of like letting people do whatever the fuck they want

31:37

to do. That's also

31:39

protective because I think that the

31:41

real honesty in that is like, if

31:43

you believe in something to the deaths,

31:45

which Christians do, which we did,

31:47

I would die. I'd be a fucking martyr

31:50

for this. You better be able to unpack

31:52

it and you better be able to look at it for the good and

31:54

the bad. Right. Cause everything has good

31:58

and evil. And if you can't see

32:00

the bad, you are trapped,

32:03

you are brainwash . You've been manipulated

32:05

to the core and that's a problem.

32:07

And I , I don't, I don't know why Christians

32:09

and other people in institutionalize organized

32:11

religion, I'll

32:13

put cults in there. I'll put Scientology

32:16

in there. Why they can't do

32:18

that. And that's, that's culty.

32:20

That's wrong. I mean, yeah.

32:22

As much as we can talk about good elements of religion.

32:25

Yeah. Wait now, like

32:27

we're even, I remember when I was in, I

32:29

think it was either high school or early university.

32:31

It must've been more early university when

32:33

I was in international development, you

32:35

know, and I would start to have more critical

32:37

conversations about Christianity with parents when I was

32:39

still very Christian, but it

32:41

was always critical. I shouldn't say always, but as

32:44

soon as you were like getting to know

32:46

the history of colonization and um,

32:49

I mean, I had my flaws too , for sure. But in terms

32:51

of understanding, yeah. The fucked

32:53

up nature of how Christianity was used to

32:55

manipulate and like white house cultures

32:57

and ruined people's individual lives, countries

33:00

lives, whatever that

33:02

there was this sense from

33:04

different people in the church and from my own family,

33:07

that to criticize how

33:09

the church has been used to wipe

33:12

out populations or to kind

33:14

of like destroy indigenous, just

33:17

every everything. Yeah . The fucked up, like to create

33:19

the patriarchy, all of this stuff and racism

33:22

totally. That is to criticize

33:24

that is to insult God, which is so

33:26

interesting to me as well. That's

33:29

definitely not all Christians. There are some very critical

33:31

Christians out there. Totally . But a lot of

33:33

the culture that I feel like I grew up with and was surrounded

33:35

by, was afraid of ultimate

33:37

criticism. Maybe they would be critical of like,

33:40

okay , let's do an exo Jesus of this text. But

33:42

to ultimately say, is this

33:44

true? You couldn't really say

33:46

that. I associated that with my dad. He

33:48

was like, hell no, this is exactly

33:51

the word of God. Right

33:53

. And there will be no further

33:55

conversation as to whether or not this is

33:58

because, cause then if you say

34:00

it's not true, you

34:03

unravel an entire belief system

34:05

of a life. And , and , and I actually, that's

34:07

where I feel like I don't want to shatter that for

34:09

my parents. Like maybe there's some people

34:11

I will have full on religious debates with, but it's

34:13

like both my parents have come from

34:15

significant life stories themselves.

34:18

And some of the stuff that they've been through, their

34:21

belief systems help them understand

34:23

exactly. Yeah, my dad too. Right.

34:26

And if they're not at a place where they're willing and ready

34:28

to unpack all of that, I don't want to push

34:30

to shatter because if they're not, if they don't

34:32

have the right, whatever it is, like

34:34

therapy in place, friends in place. I

34:37

even remember for me, when I really fully walked

34:39

away from Christianity, that was a mourning process.

34:41

It was fucking celebratory. Like it was freeing

34:44

, but it was not easy. And

34:46

that came with intention and after years

34:49

of undoing it. So I

34:51

also in a way

34:54

just accept that my parents believe that they believe.

34:56

And I think as long as I come to this place of like,

34:59

we can respect each other, then I

35:01

don't need to unravel that for them. You know?

35:04

Not that I could necessarily. Yeah.

35:06

Well, that's the thing, like, it's the two things, when

35:09

you just said, when there are certain

35:11

types of religious

35:14

connections, certain different

35:16

types of dedications to religion, that

35:18

probably didn't make sense, but like different, different

35:20

people have different connections to them ,

35:22

Religion. And when

35:24

it's held on

35:25

And held together by strings,

35:27

by just really synced

35:30

,

35:31

You say one thing

35:33

And it's shattered. Yeah . And I feel like

35:36

It's just, how do you know, how

35:38

do you know what's going to shatter someone's anything?

35:40

Because even, even my own dad's response

35:43

to what I was saying, it obviously

35:45

was held together by nothing because

35:48

I wasn't even disengaged as a seeing the Bible.

35:51

And I was just seeing ancient texts, ancient,

35:53

irrelevant texts to modern day life.

35:57

And to seven , that in of itself is

35:59

like an

36:01

It's like I laugh cause I'm like, yeah ,

36:02

It's not held together by anything. It's so

36:04

it's so delicate and fragile, right. To

36:07

the man who encouraged me to

36:09

argue and be the strong woman that I am today.

36:12

He then can't take his own

36:14

teachings that I'm saying thank you for

36:17

and apply it to his own faith. So

36:20

I mean, to be honest with you, I think to

36:22

a big degree, like you've already shattered a big

36:24

reality to them by saying that you're not, but

36:26

I think whatever way you want

36:28

to navigate your conversation with them, all

36:31

of it being valid is

36:35

telling your own fucking truths and

36:37

not trying to protect them and picking

36:39

your words and being tactful or whatever, man, you

36:42

were put into something that you didn't

36:44

have , weren't given a choice about. Yeah . So

36:46

you can feel angry about that and

36:49

you can feel bad for them

36:52

Just yeah. Yeah.

36:55

That's true. Yeah. Okay

36:59

. Yes, please, please. I'll

37:02

save it. Yeah . Well

37:04

that's it for today folks, but no Surrey

37:06

, the conversation is not over

37:09

stay tuned for Lydia and Isaiah next episode

37:11

together. But in the meantime, check out

37:13

her Instagram app

37:15

, the underscore Litster

37:19

L Y D F E R

37:21

and by her album available all

37:24

over the interwebs, check out her

37:26

Instagram. She's got a lot of important things to

37:28

say. She's producing a lot of beautiful things.

37:31

You are not going to be disappointed. And

37:33

these groovy tunes have been mixed with

37:35

music by Josh reads Venice . And

37:39

other than that, thank you for listening and

37:41

sharing as always with

37:43

love. Bye bye.