0:00

And we're back with the stellar

0:02

Tyler. This episode,

0:05

we get a little cozier into our own experiences

0:07

with the quote unquote gray

0:09

area of our purity culture, past

0:12

our chat, weaves through gender differences

0:14

in sexual encounters, relating climbing,

0:17

and intimacy. And what did we still

0:19

take from Christianity when we left it all

0:22

behind , explore with us here and

0:24

now on body and why

0:51

[inaudible] body of those lists is the temple of the Holy

0:53

spirit we desire and agreed

0:55

. I'm

1:06

a little tipsy.

1:10

Okay. So I

1:13

don't know where to start, but like,

1:16

Hmm .

1:17

Well , a story about how I

1:19

appreciate checks growing

1:21

up and developing

1:24

as a Christian.

1:25

Perfect. That, okay.

1:28

How do you perceive some things growing

1:31

up in the context of

1:33

Christianity?

1:38

Wow. So man sex

1:40

was something I could never

1:43

figure out in the, in the

1:46

lens, through the lens of Christianity, never

1:49

fully made sense to me guys

1:52

. It was always something, it was always something you understood.

1:56

What was wrong outside

1:59

of the context of marriage you

2:01

had. I could never understand how

2:05

it was so

2:08

impulsively, natural as

2:10

a human, and then also

2:13

that it felt so good. So

2:17

there was always something for me that like,

2:19

I never fully, you

2:21

know, some Christians are able to really just like suppress

2:24

it, at least on the

2:26

surface, pretend like it's not an issue,

2:29

sex or desire or

2:31

masturbation or whatever. And

2:34

for me, it was probably like my biggest

2:36

struggle with sin quote

2:39

unquote, because it

2:41

was just a pervasive

2:43

thing that like, you can never

2:45

get away from. It was

2:48

a teenager. And I went through my high school

2:51

kind of late high school, early college

2:53

years where

2:56

like I was Christian, I grew up in the Christian context,

2:59

but I kinda like strayed for a little

3:01

bit and like did my selfish,

3:03

you know, growing up kind of

3:06

exploration with whatever, like I

3:08

had sex plenty of times.

3:11

Um, but there was always this extreme

3:14

guilt associated with it. Not

3:16

even just sex with masturbation.

3:19

And can I ask, was it sex with other Christians

3:22

or was it sex with people who were not

3:24

Christian or both?

3:26

I think almost never with other Christians.

3:28

Okay. Yeah. I'm just trying to recall,

3:34

Goes to them all off. Now. This

3:38

is like confession.

3:40

No, it was always with people who weren't

3:42

Christians, which I think was what

3:45

made it almost even worse because

3:47

then the girl never understood

3:50

the guilt that I had and the shame

3:54

and that for them, because

3:56

of the don't understand it, it translated

3:58

to them as this

4:00

weird kind of rejection

4:03

or like that they were used

4:06

in a way.

4:07

What'd you talk about it with them explicitly or no, you

4:09

would just react and they wouldn't understand

4:12

why or how you were reacting sometimes,

4:16

I guess , I guess.

4:17

And was that more, it was after I kind

4:20

of like rededicated my life to Christ

4:23

or unquote again. Um, well

4:25

, uh, after , like, after

4:27

the summer of my 19th year

4:30

of life where like I was still in college,

4:33

the weird thing for me is that like, I really,

4:36

really, really valued

4:38

intimacy, especially physical intimacy.

4:41

So it was just so easy for me

4:43

to kind of like be

4:46

with an attractive girl who wasn't a Christian

4:49

and just get a little

4:51

bit too far down the line

4:53

for like my Christian values

4:56

and then like find

4:59

myself being like I need to back out. So

5:02

like, there were a couple instances

5:04

where I would

5:06

like be with a girl who I thought was

5:09

really attractive, who was like, I was, I was friends

5:11

with and we

5:13

would basically get just to the point

5:16

of like being both in our underwear

5:18

and like about to, you know,

5:20

take her clothes off and get it on

5:22

and then find myself be like, I'm

5:25

sorry, like I can't do this. Like I think

5:27

because of my beliefs, I kind of want to save sex

5:30

until marriage, this

5:33

bullshit, this stupid,

5:35

stupid bullshit, where

5:37

it was traumatizing.

5:39

I feel like for the girls that I was with,

5:41

Because like maybe they were in such a vulnerable

5:44

position because yeah.

5:47

What they really explicitly felt was

5:49

that for some reason,

5:51

irrationally, they felt that they, that

5:54

I, I kind of perceived them as

5:57

pushing me too far or, or

5:59

taking me to a point and I didn't want it to go. And

6:01

they felt uncomfortable in

6:04

a way that like was

6:06

almost as if I perceived them

6:08

as something dirty or,

6:10

or, or that I didn't want.

6:15

There's so much wrapped up in that there's

6:17

so much, I can't hardly articulate it.

6:19

Cause there's so many, so many angles, you know

6:21

, it's embarrassing.

6:23

Like, yeah, well it could

6:25

be in so many levels. A, she

6:28

might think that like you guys were actually really attracted

6:30

to each other and that's all of the signs were going that

6:32

way. And then she maybe feels rejected.

6:35

But then also, yeah, sometimes the feeling

6:37

of you being used where you're used

6:39

for all these, like for all of the intimacy

6:42

leading up to that, but not the

6:44

actual thing, which like, I don't know, but

6:46

as a teenager, how a teenager would maybe perceive

6:48

this, but like just like hearing it, it's

6:50

less about if you say to someone

6:52

ahead of time, I don't,

6:55

I don't want to have sex, but like, I really like

6:57

you, whatever that it's less about. Like

6:59

whether or not you want to have sex, it's

7:01

more about like the way that it's all handled

7:03

feeling, this person feels like

7:05

they're better than me or this person feels like I'm

7:08

dirty.

7:09

Yeah. It

7:11

was shitty because even

7:14

though like in that situation, I

7:17

always felt horrible

7:19

for the girls.

7:21

And like, even though I felt ashamed

7:24

in certain ways, like I knew that

7:26

almost what I felt wasn't as bad as what,

7:28

like the girl felt like

7:31

it was something that like, I , it's hard to , hard

7:33

to even explain, but like I saw on her face,

7:35

I could see it on her face. Like when I, I

7:38

remember like when I said those

7:40

words need to stop, it was like, I

7:42

don't want to do this anymore. I think, I don't

7:44

think this is right. I think I want to save sex

7:47

for marriage, even though I've already had sex before.

7:50

And just like seeing like the way that like

7:53

the faces change, like

7:55

that's like what, like stuck in my head

7:58

because it was just a

8:00

, it's just like fundamentally wrong.

8:03

I feel like my part one,

8:06

like, yeah, like, like you said, it's one thing

8:08

to like state it before and then not

8:10

let it get to that point. And another thing

8:12

Always fine. If you don't want to have sex with someone,

8:15

it's just how it's coming . Yeah .

8:16

Take it all the way

8:18

just before. Yeah

8:21

. And then just to come out with that

8:24

is just like, yeah , it's fucking

8:26

stupid. And it's ,

8:27

And also, and I think would be difficult

8:29

maybe for someone who didn't grow up potentially

8:32

in a religious background. Yeah

8:34

. And I think that's where, like, I

8:36

mean the hashtag guilt hashtag shame

8:39

comes in. It's it's these

8:41

really negative emotions. Like

8:43

it's giving me interesting perspective actually. Like my

8:45

first boyfriend, we dated for two

8:48

years, almost two years,

8:50

we'd grown up together in high school and the church,

8:52

we were very good friends for years and years and years

8:54

and work together, went to church together, youth group,

8:58

Oh, we never had sex. We did like absolutely

9:01

everything up until that point, which is

9:03

a whole other conversation I think too around

9:05

like, yeah, just

9:07

this, Oh , it's

9:10

the biggest conversation. I feel

9:12

like for, for Christians growing

9:14

up in any form of purity culture,

9:17

stupid quote unquote gray area. Right. Which

9:19

I, now I'm still dealing with the

9:22

repercussions of that, I think in some way. So

9:24

we didn't have sex, the quote, unquote,

9:27

penetrative sex, if you want to be like technical, even

9:29

though we did everything else because I was the one

9:32

who resisted and it wasn't

9:35

because I didn't want it. But I think the

9:37

reason that we didn't is because I felt like it was

9:39

wrong. It was like the resounding

9:41

guilt shame thing, even though everything

9:43

else we were able to do, but I still felt guilty

9:45

and shame about it, but I felt like I put that's the definition

9:48

of it so we can do it. But then I hardly even

9:50

enjoyed that because I felt like this

9:52

is wrong as well, but we're kind of allowed

9:55

to do it. So let's do it. So that

9:57

also scarred me. I think in a lot of ways, took years

9:59

to heal from, I often saw

10:01

it without really realizing it at the time, but more

10:03

in later years that like, we

10:05

didn't fully have sex

10:09

because it was also like, it

10:11

wasn't the healthiest relationships. And it was like the

10:13

ultimate control that I had. Like, it was

10:15

kind of the only control I felt like I had in that relationship

10:17

as well, but also kind

10:19

of empathizing for him because he really wanted

10:21

it. And I don't think he was a bad guy for that. You know,

10:23

there were other things he needed to work on, but I don't

10:26

think he was a bad guy for that. And I think

10:28

that's such a shame as well of like thinking

10:31

that the other person wants it because there's somehow

10:33

lesser or more primal or

10:35

it's a weaker thing to want

10:37

it . Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

10:39

Exactly. Like , come on,

10:41

please. No

10:44

, this purity thing as well, which

10:46

is now like for sure not

10:49

What was the first time you had real sex,

10:51

penetrative sex?

10:54

Oh, it's so interesting

10:56

of a question because I think now

10:59

I feel shame and like the opposite way

11:02

answering that .

11:04

Ooh .

11:05

Like in terms of like the like liberal world,

11:07

like yeah

11:10

. Like it's like you have to have had sex

11:12

when you're like 14 to be like a liberated

11:14

woman. Um,

11:17

I was 24, which

11:21

I was like, now that's not even that .

11:24

How do you handle sex and relationships

11:26

now? That's

11:29

a big question.

11:34

Hmm . I don't even know how to answer that. I

11:36

feel like it's something that's just like constantly

11:38

ongoing. It's like, I'm always learning from

11:40

it. I think because

11:42

I waver between, I think I went

11:45

pretty quickly after Greg . I went full on

11:47

like, not sexist, meaningless,

11:49

but like yeah. Exploratory.

11:51

Yeah. Just like have fun

11:54

Doing what you, what

11:56

the typical person would

11:58

do in their college years. You did as

12:00

a more conscious and

12:03

hopefully more mature adult

12:05

Maybe even now , but

12:08

then I think, yeah , but

12:11

in some ways it was good. I could just, I just

12:13

did it. I just did it over and

12:15

over and over again. But then

12:18

I think where I'm more at now is

12:20

it's like the pendulum, right? Like, I

12:22

mean, even talking to a lot of my friends who are pretty

12:24

like full on spectrum, you

12:27

know, especially for those that came out later in life.

12:30

It's the whole thing of like, why does coming out have to be such

12:32

a big idea? And you're like, well, for at least people

12:34

who were repressed, sometimes

12:36

you really need to go from one extreme.

12:39

You go to the other to come back in the middle. Maybe

12:41

some people are able to slowly come out of one

12:43

or come out in a balanced way, but that's not

12:45

always possible. You know, for

12:47

me, I was doing a little bit of that. I just needed

12:50

to let the pendulum swing in a pretty unhealthy

12:52

way

12:52

For awhile , especially when, part of it

12:54

means like rejecting the identity

12:56

that you like growing up with.

12:59

Yes. But I think it's kind of sad

13:01

if I grew up in a way that taught me healthy

13:03

sexuality from a beginning then yeah.

13:05

I could have had really amazing sexual exploration

13:08

years. Yeah . But in a way that

13:10

was like inshallah always

13:12

consensual or inshallah, always

13:14

like, Oh yeah, I really want

13:16

to have sex right now. But is that person really the person

13:18

that I want to do it with? You know? And I don't think I

13:21

ha I didn't have those tools. And I also

13:23

felt a lot of the bitterness and a lot of the anger

13:25

that I think pushed me even further to an

13:27

extreme that I think then

13:30

put me in unhealthy situations that

13:32

I wouldn't have been if I was taught a healthy sexuality

13:35

in the first place, but maybe

13:37

people in my Christian upbringing would have said, well, that's

13:39

the reason why we told it you shouldn't have sex when I'm

13:41

like, no, if I hadn't been

13:43

told that it's okay to have sex from the beginning and

13:45

been taught how to do it, who to do it with when

13:48

and how and whatever, and why.

13:50

I don't think I would have gone to that extreme,

13:53

but I don't think that

13:54

Sex is bad at all. I think it's really beautiful.

13:57

It's just a matter of , um,

13:59

something that can be really beautiful can also be really

14:01

damaging. So how does it be something

14:04

just good? You know, whether

14:06

it's just as basic as like, this is like exercise,

14:08

good job, or like too , like

14:12

we weren't allowed to calories [inaudible]

14:18

, you know, but then also getting emotional

14:20

things out or like connecting short term

14:22

versus long term, I think has been something that's

14:24

been hard for me to understand, because I think

14:27

sometimes when I have an emotional connection to

14:29

it, it's still hard for my instincts to say,

14:31

Oh , that's not like longterm , even if that's

14:33

not what I intellectually think. Like, I think my emotions

14:37

are still tied to the like 24

14:39

years.

14:40

You have sex with Mary. Yeah,

14:42

exactly.

14:44

That's hard to undo. Um,

14:46

I always say good for you because I feel

14:48

like at least in my personal experience,

14:51

most of my sexual experiences before

14:53

the age of actually

14:56

I would say most all of my sexual experiences

14:58

before I met that girl

15:00

who made me question Christianity,

15:04

all of my sexual experiences before that

15:07

were unhealthy.

15:10

Hmm . I guess I would say, I

15:12

don't want to say wrong because I don't think the sex

15:15

was wrong, but the way that I

15:17

interpreted and reacted to them was

15:20

definitely wrong. And all of those

15:23

relationships are broken because

15:25

of that. And what's funny is

15:27

that now the way that I go about

15:30

like my , uh , no

15:33

relationships, my intimate relationships and my

15:35

sexual relationships, I

15:37

think it's so obvious how

15:39

much more healthy the

15:41

human being I am now based

15:44

upon the women that I've slept with, all

15:46

of the women I've slept with. Since, since

15:48

I moved to Jordan, I am really,

15:51

really close and intimate with all of

15:53

them, except for maybe one

15:55

or two, including

15:58

associates path. And

16:01

the other one was just someone

16:04

to refuse to listen

16:07

to the things that I was saying, which was like,

16:09

I feel I'm an mean . And I think part of that

16:11

is in this context as well, where

16:14

they coming into this culture where even if you

16:16

meet a very liberal

16:20

Palestinian or liberal Jordanian, say

16:22

for instance, one of the girls I'm talking about

16:25

from Jordan , um, you

16:27

still have a lot of very strong

16:30

cultural things

16:33

and cultural norms about sex, where

16:36

like sex is, is never

16:38

really casual. Even if

16:40

you're completely non-religious and non

16:43

you don't adhere to those scripts.

16:47

There's still an expectation of a lot more

16:51

with the act. Then most people from

16:53

the West would , would kind of take

16:56

from it, right? Like I I'm at

16:58

a point now, like I'm

17:00

having the time of my life because I

17:03

have come to this point where I'm, I

17:05

am confident and I am secure

17:08

and what I believe and what I, when I want. And

17:10

I'm also so direct

17:13

and communicative. And for me,

17:15

like communication is the most important thing now, because

17:18

in my past, what has traumatized

17:21

me is how I've traumatized

17:24

girls. Interesting. That

17:26

is actually the thing that really affects my relationships

17:29

the most where like,

17:32

I'm so hesitant

17:34

to jump into things quickly because

17:36

I'm so terrified that

17:39

the girl that I'm with is

17:41

going to expect more from me

17:43

that I'm willing to give. If I sleep with her,

17:45

like immediately kind of thing. And

17:47

for me, like all

17:49

of my missteps sexually,

17:52

like in the past have been

17:54

with girls that like I was really

17:57

interested in and like really attracted to,

18:00

it was just a factuation when I look back. But

18:02

like basically I pursued these girls,

18:05

I slept with them a few times

18:07

had, had some fun. And then

18:09

like over the course of like a month or two realize

18:12

like, you know, like, I

18:15

don't really want to anything to do with this girl

18:17

anymore. Like , I'm just not, there's something about her.

18:19

Like I just, it doesn't fly with me and

18:22

for the other girls to think that like I

18:24

was so invested

18:26

in her and like that there was going to be a future between

18:28

us, whether or not it was marriage, whether it was

18:30

just dating or something. And

18:32

then for me to just be like, you know, I'm not really into

18:35

you anymore and like her

18:37

to be destroyed. So

18:39

like in a way that has not

18:41

to say that like I've experienced the same amount of pain

18:43

or something that a girl like that would experience from,

18:46

from me, but that

18:49

I might be able to deceive myself that I

18:51

really want this girl when

18:53

really it's just physical

18:56

attraction or effectuation

18:59

or something that easily fades away.

19:01

So for me, that , that's what gets me the most. So

19:03

now I'm so, so communicative

19:06

almost too much to the point where

19:09

I'm asking, like, can

19:11

I kind of take this shirt off? Could

19:14

I take these pants off? I just want you to

19:16

know that, like, I just want

19:18

this to be a casual thing. Like, I really like

19:20

you, and I'm a very affectionate

19:22

person, but in the end, I'm

19:24

not really looking for anything more than that point

19:26

where it's almost too much.

19:28

Do you think it's too much though? Cause I'm like,

19:30

do you really think it's too much? I

19:33

get other people just aren't used to

19:34

Maybe other people aren't used to it. I know, I

19:36

know for sure other people aren't used to it because girls have

19:38

said it to her like really? Are

19:41

you asking me? You're

19:43

asking me not only being , take my shirt off, but

19:46

then also if you can take my pants off,

19:51

[inaudible]

19:51

Like, I've had girls be like, is it not obvious

19:53

that like that's okay,

19:55

But okay, this is where it's so interesting to me

19:57

to hear that because I

19:59

also feel like I'm overly communicative,

20:02

not necessarily about taking clothes off, but

20:04

yeah , about what I want out of the situation.

20:08

And sometimes that's been reciprocated

20:11

and it's been great. And sometimes it hasn't been and

20:13

guys don't really always know what to do with it. Girls

20:16

usually know what to do with it. Cause we communicate pretty

20:19

well in general it's stereotypically.

20:22

But what I feel

20:26

that I was only taught sexuality

20:28

in one context. Yeah . In

20:31

Christianity. And then in high school

20:33

and university, I was taught in a really extremely

20:35

different way that I also think has a lot of flaws.

20:38

Like I would say like stereotypical

20:41

Western sexuality is also pretty fucked

20:43

and going through its own thing right now. Like I don't

20:45

think it's necessarily better than what I grew up with. I

20:48

mean, as an extreme stereotype, like there's obviously

20:50

so many nuances. Yeah . But

20:53

I don't think I was given the right tools to kind

20:55

of navigate sexual encounters. And

20:57

so I'm figuring that out.

20:59

I think a lot of my friends are figuring that out and

21:01

I think that's why, in some ways I want to do the podcast. Cause

21:03

it's just like, people are trying to figure this

21:05

out and they can't necessarily,

21:08

you know, I've had a lot of really cool

21:10

casual sexual encounters with people where I'm

21:12

like, I also felt like

21:15

the other people were acting like pretty cool

21:17

for school, but also we're not necessarily

21:20

in touch with their emotions. And like maybe

21:22

they were communicating really well, but they were also pretty cut

21:24

off and it was really casual, but it

21:26

wasn't healthy. I don't think either. So

21:28

I think it's that like nuanced area

21:32

that I don't, maybe some other people

21:34

know how to deal with, but I don't think I know how to, because

21:36

I'm really I'm living in extremes.

21:38

I went from pretty conservative, like super conservative

21:41

and trying to jump back in. Yeah.

21:44

Yeah. That's tough. I don't know . Yeah.

21:47

But then it depends on the person as well.

21:49

I think so because where I'm

21:51

at now is that since

21:53

I've, since I've dropped Christianity, basically

21:56

like what I've come to basically

22:00

believe is like the meaning of life is

22:02

to ha

22:05

like to make real lasting,

22:07

intimate, beautiful connections with

22:09

other people, whether that means sexually

22:12

or not. I

22:14

think sexually, you can have really beautiful, intimate,

22:16

spectacular relationships with people

22:19

without commitment or with,

22:21

you know, but I've also, I've

22:23

just come to really appreciate people

22:25

that I can connect with intimately

22:29

male, female, romantic

22:32

platonic. Um,

22:34

like to me, like that seems

22:36

to be the only constant real

22:38

thing that matters in

22:41

life. Like these people who

22:44

like you can really have this amazing connection with.

22:47

Yeah. Like I really

22:49

have a hard time finding anything that's

22:51

more real and more true than

22:54

those relationships in

22:56

this life. And like, that's almost, what's

22:58

replaced my religion. It's

23:01

just like this religion of

23:04

loving other people in

23:06

whatever form your relationship

23:08

takes. And

23:11

honestly, it's way more fulfilling than the

23:13

Christianity. Totally.

23:16

I actually totally agree almost

23:18

to a point where

23:20

I'm like, Oh , like I, I

23:24

sacrifice a lot in my life. Like relationships

23:26

are my ultimate goal, you know? Like, yeah.

23:28

I don't like the word God anymore.

23:30

That's not like, I think again, I went through years

23:33

of trying to redefine that word

23:35

in many, you like all the different

23:37

definitions. Like people keep thinking, like you're

23:39

saying, you can redefine it. God can be

23:41

a shade . God can be all this. And this I'm like,

23:44

now I'm just like, yeah, just like a pretty traumatic

23:46

word for me. So I don't use it. But for

23:48

me it was so freeing to kind of see

23:50

like the ultimate beauty of the world

23:52

is in other people in the natural

23:54

world, intimacy and sexual relationships

23:57

can also be even

23:59

when it, when it's casual. It's awesome

24:02

when that works. But then when

24:04

it doesn't work, it can be so hard. And

24:06

sometimes I think that's where it can be upsetting.

24:08

Like I feel like I've developed, I

24:11

mean, I'm imperfect in it, but I've developed skills

24:13

for the most part, usually to kind of say, this is

24:15

where I'm at at this time of my life. This is what

24:17

I want out of this situation. And I can say

24:19

that pretty clearly to a person, but

24:21

then when the other person can't come back

24:24

and say that to me, or they say something to

24:26

me, but they actually want something else. That's

24:29

why either I get really sad or frustrated. Cause

24:31

I don't know. It's sometimes is a gender thing

24:33

sometimes, but it's also just like, not everyone

24:36

also has the tools to identify where they're at

24:38

emotionally to communicate. Right. It's

24:40

not even just a physical consent thing. It's like

24:43

an emotional thing. It's like when you have an encounter

24:45

with someone, I think the only

24:47

way that that's ever really great is if

24:49

both people really know what they want out of that situation.

24:52

Sometimes that means that. Yeah, they're saying like,

24:54

do you want me to take your shirt off? It's like explicit,

24:57

but where a lot of the pain in my

24:59

life has come from is like other

25:01

people or my own inability

25:03

to understand what I want and need in a moment

25:06

and then communicate that to someone else. Yeah . And

25:08

that's what I really hope for. Not only our generation,

25:11

but then especially the ones coming after

25:13

that, they develop those skills of being

25:15

able to know what they want in a moment,

25:17

but then also in their lives in general, because

25:20

if all you want is like a 15

25:22

minute fucking a bathroom and a bar,

25:24

that's cool. You consensually figure that out.

25:26

If you want to like be with someone for the rest

25:28

of your life, you know, all of the extremes, if

25:30

everyone can say that and know that that's

25:33

what they want. It's beautiful. It's fine.

25:35

As long as you know it, you can figure it out

25:37

and everybody's okay .

25:38

People communicate that with you . Yeah . Yeah.

25:41

It's murky waters. But I

25:44

feel like for me,

25:46

like the most beautiful

25:49

and productive and beneficial

25:51

thing has just been spitting it out, just

25:54

being open and vulnerable with

25:56

someone even when you're not fully

25:59

sure where they stand. And

26:01

I guess the problem with me saying that to you

26:03

is that like, it is definitely

26:07

different for a man

26:09

than it is for him .

26:09

I was just going to say, yeah, because I

26:12

Completely understand that it

26:14

is not the same at all,

26:17

but I mean the same time, like I

26:19

also feel like I was totally tricked

26:21

by this one girl who

26:24

I dated for, for six months

26:26

who in Hawaii I think is a

26:29

sociopath or something like

26:31

that because I don't know . I

26:33

mean, and it still is different because

26:35

the power dynamic is still very different. Uh

26:38

, regardless like even in that relationship, I

26:40

was the one who ended it, the one who was like, something's

26:42

not right. This needs to be over

26:45

mean even though I was hurt in a way, I think

26:47

that it can be a lot

26:49

different for women. And like I have three

26:51

of them as sisters and I was

26:53

basically raised by women. My mom had

26:55

me when she was 19 and then

26:57

I grew up with a single

27:00

mom and my grandma's house

27:02

with my mom's three sisters. Wow

27:04

. So I think

27:07

I'm a relatively special case where

27:10

as much as I am like a man and

27:12

a lot of ways , um, I

27:15

don't even like to say that now, like, because

27:18

I'm not trying to assign myself a specific gender

27:20

role, but as

27:22

much as I am, I guess I would say not

27:25

afraid physically of

27:27

other people. I'm also

27:29

very, very in touch with my, my

27:32

emotions. And then like with my, like what I want

27:34

and I don't mind being vulnerable because

27:38

there's no real threat to me. Maybe there's,

27:40

you know, some kind of emotional or

27:43

existential threat, but like I'm not

27:45

really scared really like

27:48

physically for my own safety. And

27:51

that's very different from the way

27:53

that women have to experience the world.

27:55

Yeah. Yeah. Like the gender thing plays.

27:57

So like, yeah, it's a lot because

28:00

then you can end up in these interesting situations

28:02

where like sometimes

28:04

then an emotional situation,

28:06

then you confuse at all . If the guy opens

28:08

up, then they're like super into

28:11

you , which isn't necessarily true. But then it's

28:13

also, a lot of the times happens where

28:15

the guy, they don't know their own emotions

28:18

for themselves, let alone to communicate it

28:20

to someone else. So you're kind of in this area

28:22

of like trying to guess it,

28:25

trying to bring it out in them, it feels exhausting.

28:28

It's like you feel emotionally responsible. You're guessing,

28:30

which is always bad. Yeah

28:32

. You know, or it pushes the person away

28:35

or it pulls them in like, it's just like, so

28:37

yeah. There's so many elements. I mean the gender

28:39

conversation with, or without

28:42

Christianity I think is like fascinating and

28:44

super relevant. But one

28:46

thing I was going to kind of ask was like,

28:48

I really loved that one

28:50

post that you put

28:52

on Facebook or social media around

28:54

like climbing and intimacy.

28:56

Like I haven't even remember

28:58

necessarily now what it was about, but

29:02

I was just like wondering what

29:04

climbing or your relationship with

29:07

yeah. Like rocks or climbing or the land

29:10

is like, if that's had any influence on

29:12

your sexuality, on

29:14

your beliefs, like who you are

29:16

as a person

29:18

In a way it has, because

29:21

like climbing is a sport that's, it's

29:23

amazing because you can take it to whatever

29:26

level, the wanting to take it personally.

29:29

Um, and there's different types of climbing that

29:32

can be way more dangerous

29:34

and risky than other types

29:37

of climbing. Like you, you get to decide

29:39

where you take that. Like the climbing

29:41

that I grew up on,

29:45

I started calling me in a climbing gym, but then like the

29:47

only outdoor climbing for me in the

29:49

New York state area is

29:51

traditional climbing where you have to place your own

29:53

gear as you're climbing up into

29:55

the future of the rock. And you basically

29:58

just have to either be confident

30:00

enough in your skill of placing the

30:02

right kind of gear the right size for the right

30:05

crack or the right, whatever that

30:08

like , you are confident to fall on

30:10

that if you do fall or

30:13

where you like, you, you place

30:15

a piece of gear and you're like, Oh, that was

30:17

kind of shady. I'm

30:20

just not going to fall. It's

30:22

kind of like why it goes to in your head where you're like, there's

30:24

no option to in because of my fall , it

30:26

could be bad. Um, so

30:28

it really makes you have

30:31

to mentally

30:34

do this like fight or flight kind of thing, where you're

30:36

like, either you submit to the panic

30:38

and you possibly get hurt,

30:41

or you just say like,

30:43

I'm not going to do that. Um,

30:47

and , and it kind of creates this kind

30:49

of mental toughness

30:52

in a way, but in

30:54

that kind of lens, like it has

30:57

made even the kind of climate

30:59

that I've done that , which is not like, which is relatively

31:01

amateur. It has

31:03

created this sense of like, what

31:06

is important and like what

31:08

is really going to be, what

31:11

would really be a scary

31:13

thing in life. So

31:16

like after doing something where like, I could

31:18

die if I fall and I'm not gonna , I'm just

31:20

like, I'm not gonna fall. I'm just not gonna ,

31:22

I'm going to push through this whatever,

31:24

To something where like, when I'm with a

31:27

girl that I'm attracted to, and

31:29

I'm like scared to say

31:32

how I feel and reveal my emotions

31:34

and kind of make myself vulnerable in that. And

31:37

I think like, what are the

31:39

real consequences if

31:42

say actually

31:43

Yeah. In this,

31:45

And there's, there's really no consequences. There's

31:48

none. If you really think about

31:50

it, like in the grand scheme of things. And

31:53

I think that has really helped me a lot. And

31:56

just this confidence of being like, I'm

31:58

going to tell you how I feel and if you don't feel the same way,

32:01

good. And then like, I can

32:03

have like a definite answer and I can move on

32:05

with my life. Like I hate the game.

32:07

I always hate the game.

32:11

Coming back to that playing games, it's

32:13

bad, the fucking game. As soon

32:15

as I almost find myself editing text

32:17

messages, I'm like, this is a bad sign . Yeah.

32:21

But in a way, like, that's kind of just,

32:24

I wouldn't say climbing is the only thing that has done

32:26

that, how did decent effect. But

32:29

for me, I think this also

32:31

has to do with my upbringing where like I had a very,

32:33

very healthy upbringing.

32:35

Like even before my mom got married

32:37

to my , my stepdad who I consider my

32:39

real dad. And sometimes I forget,

32:42

he's not like my biological father, even

32:45

their relationship after they got married. It

32:47

was really an amazing example of my

32:49

family. And my extent, my extended family is very

32:52

cohesive. We all have very healthy relationships

32:56

where I'm confident enough

32:58

in myself and who I am.

33:01

And also confident enough in

33:03

like my safety net of like people who

33:05

I know will never stop

33:07

loving me and caring for me and supporting

33:09

me that I don't mind

33:12

being completely a hundred percent vulnerable

33:14

to people around me and to

33:16

like possible romantic interests

33:19

of mine that has been the

33:21

big thing of what's like changed my kind

33:24

of made this ideology. I have

33:27

that like relationships and intimacy

33:29

are the most important thing in human existence

33:32

because I've been able to have so

33:35

many amazing relationships

33:38

with people and especially like

33:40

with women, because I, I feel like I just

33:42

relate to them and watch more. So

33:44

my best friends are women, women that I've

33:46

slept with from that I haven't slept with and have

33:48

no romantic , um,

33:51

relation to at all. And that's

33:53

been going on since even before

33:55

I kind of dropped Christianity in

33:57

a way the climbing

34:00

is like that post that

34:02

you're talking about. Wasn't specific,

34:04

honestly, that post came from a place

34:07

of more post relationship with

34:09

a sociopath. If

34:12

I'm bringing that up, where,

34:15

where, like I thought

34:17

I was, I was doing like my thing where

34:19

I was being completely honest and open

34:21

and vulnerable about something. And

34:23

this girl was not, this girl

34:25

was not at all being honest

34:28

about things. So that kind of

34:30

prompted that post where like

34:32

Probably why someone who people liked it, but

34:35

like I've been there.

34:37

And I mean, like, it's so true, like

34:39

in, from both sides of the situation,

34:41

whether you're the one who

34:44

is being open and intimate

34:47

and vulnerable, or you're the one

34:49

just kind of holding back, I think you

34:51

can still see like the positive

34:53

and the negative in those things and how

34:55

that affected your relationships and

34:58

how like, just like letting it all out there

35:01

in the, in the end. You're still the one who

35:03

comes out on top. I think, because

35:06

even if you were honest and you got kind of

35:08

fucked over, at

35:10

least you were honest with yourself and least that like,

35:12

you can move on and be like, wow, like,

35:15

all right . So I've learned from this,

35:17

that this is the kind of person like,

35:19

these are some things I can look out

35:22

for, with someone that I'm , I'm

35:24

being intimate with, where

35:26

they're not being the same way you can learn

35:28

and you can grow from that.

35:30

I think that in some ways comes from like trying to

35:32

learn to come to a place of like, knowing

35:34

really what you want, but not needing,

35:37

like, it's

35:38

An interesting balance of being like, okay,

35:40

I have what I need. Even if the worst,

35:42

whatever I think is the worst happens, this person

35:44

doesn't want me, it's going to be shitty,

35:47

but I'm going to be fine, you know,

35:49

but I also know that's what I want. And it's distinguishing

35:51

those.

35:53

That's exactly what it is. That's so true. You put it into

35:55

where it's much better than I could. Yeah.

35:58

Thank God like that. I had that base because

36:00

maybe this toxic

36:02

relationship that I had would

36:04

have gone on for a lot longer and a lot more

36:06

destructive for me, if

36:08

it was something that like I craved

36:10

and like I needed that form part

36:12

of my identity or my worth or

36:15

my , my, my self value. Um

36:18

, thankfully like that wasn't an issue for me.

36:20

And then in the end, like, even though I didn't know

36:23

exactly what was wrong when I broke up

36:25

with this girl, I knew something

36:27

was wrong and that was , I had the

36:29

foresight enough to like end it.

36:31

And then afterwards kind of discover like, Oh,

36:34

wow, like looking back in hindsight

36:36

like that. Wasn't cool. That

36:38

wasn't cool. That wasn't cool. That

36:40

was wrong. And,

36:43

wow , it's good. It's good that I know that now.

36:46

And I can kind of remember that

36:48

for the next time.

36:50

Yeah . I'm

36:53

just going to pause here to let you know that

36:55

body and wine podcast encourages

36:58

guests to freely discuss their experiences,

37:00

ideas, and opinions. These beliefs

37:02

and stories are representative of the individuals

37:05

that share them amongst laughs and bits

37:07

of wisdom. These conversations can include

37:10

varying challenges related to belief and sexuality.

37:13

Please use your discretion as you listen,

37:15

and as always take care of yourself. Okay.

37:18

Let's get back to it. I

37:23

want to ask you a few things before I forget. Okay.

37:27

One is one

37:29

thing that you find attractive or sexy and

37:31

another person could be physical

37:34

or not.

37:35

Honestly, I think one thing I really find

37:38

sexy or attractive in a girl

37:40

is, and

37:42

I think I've always felt this is this kind of a refusal

37:45

to accept the

37:48

gender role kind of thing. Like, I

37:50

really love, really love

37:52

girls who are like kind of fiery

37:55

and like unapologetic with

37:58

like their opinions and their views.

38:00

They don't necessarily have to be loud or

38:03

aggressive. I really

38:05

think it's sexy when a

38:08

girl is very assertive and

38:10

like knows what she wants, because

38:13

maybe in a way that makes

38:15

me feel more comfortable

38:18

because maybe that's some , like what

38:20

comes back to this fear I have of like,

38:22

you know, hurting someone by like, not

38:24

giving them a full explanation

38:26

of like what I want from this or whatever.

38:29

Whereas like when with an assertive girl,

38:31

I don't have to worry about that. And

38:34

there's definitely more to it that, but

38:36

, uh, yeah, I liked that.

38:38

I liked that in girls like assertive, powerful,

38:42

strong girl. Cool.

38:44

Okay. Now the question I have is

38:46

, um , is there something

38:48

that you've learned in your upbringing

38:50

that you felt was negative that you've had to undo?

38:54

Something that you want other people

38:57

has been beneficial to you or something

38:59

also from your upbringing that was really positive

39:01

that you still take with you?

39:03

Definitely like the, I would , I would

39:05

want to undo the

39:07

guilt that's associated with the

39:09

sex and it's not only affected

39:11

me. It's affected the women

39:13

I've either been with or almost

39:16

been with, but thankfully there's something I

39:18

didn't really have to have a struggle to get over.

39:20

Like once I started even,

39:22

I was just questioning my Christianity and not like

39:24

fully rejecting it. I was having

39:26

sex and really

39:28

the more I

39:30

was having sex, the less guilty I started

39:32

feeling about it, even the guilt

39:35

itself, like I felt

39:37

it, but it was never like a crippling

39:39

guilt. It was always like,

39:41

almost like a question in guilt. Like why do I feel

39:44

this way, God, like for showing

39:46

me that is so great and

39:50

beautiful. Why do I feel this

39:52

way? It's something that you created to be beautiful.

39:54

So I guess I want to say it , but the second

39:56

one, what I've learned is that

39:59

intimacy comes in many different

40:01

forms and

40:04

I think it's so beautiful and

40:06

something to be really embraced it's intimacy

40:09

in all its forms, whether

40:11

it's with a sexual partner

40:14

or just someone you were attracted to that

40:17

you have physical intimacy with,

40:19

or even someone who's just a friend

40:22

who you developed like this platonic

40:24

intimacy with, I

40:26

think that's wildly important

40:29

because like, that's

40:31

the only way you're going to develop any meaningful

40:33

kind of relationship with them. And

40:36

for me, I'm mostly speaking in the context of

40:38

women because that's

40:41

where I guess I've been held back,

40:43

like, because of my beliefs, like

40:46

even as a Christian,

40:49

you know, I sleep at sometimes in the same

40:51

bed as like my friends, like

40:53

girls that like were good friends

40:55

of mine when we would have no

40:57

physical intimacy

41:00

going on, like nothing besides

41:02

like snuggling together. I

41:05

was so goddamn beautiful.

41:08

And so like I had

41:10

such, I still do have such

41:12

amazing friendships like that, mostly

41:14

with women for me. But I think that also has part to

41:16

do with like my upbringing, where

41:18

like I was raised by women, you

41:20

know, and I was surrounded by women and I relate much

41:22

easier to women. I guess

41:25

in, for me, intimacy should

41:27

be someone that is spread around through

41:29

multiple relationships and not something

41:32

like just the one

41:34

person that you marry , like is there , they

41:37

cannot be your only source of intimacy

41:40

in your life or shouldn't. And that's why

41:43

you have such a fucking huge divorce rate

41:46

because you have this whole idea of marriage,

41:48

like to construct the human construct that

41:51

came from that and cultural revolution based

41:53

upon property and stuff. And even back then,

41:56

you didn't marry someone because you expected them

41:58

to like complete you or be like your second

42:00

half. And they, you know , provide everything

42:03

that you were missing in your life. And

42:05

it shouldn't be how it is now, but that's

42:07

how we treat marriage now, as in like, it's

42:09

your other, it's your soulmate. And

42:12

they're going to be your everything it's

42:14

not ever going to happen with

42:16

no human being. And you need

42:18

to have multiple different relationships,

42:21

whether they be romantic or not

42:24

at all that have a

42:26

lot of intimacy in them in

42:28

order for you to be a complete

42:31

or fulfilled person for

42:33

, I think that's, I guess what I would say, there's

42:35

one thing that I discovered that is really important

42:37

is that intimacy comes

42:40

in many different forms should

42:42

be embraced and pursued and

42:44

all of those different forms, no matter

42:46

what status you are in life.

42:49

And then one thing that I've learned from

42:52

my Christian background that is beneficial

42:55

for me, what did it like? Why I

42:57

am even in this area to begin with is

43:00

the sense of like justice. Then

43:02

I got from Christianity sense

43:05

of quote, unquote, righteous

43:07

anger, or just anger in general against

43:09

injustice and oppression and

43:11

abuse of power is

43:14

something that I got from Christianity. And

43:17

that was really like passionate about

43:19

it before I dropped

43:21

Christianity. It was kind

43:23

of what we mentioned in this region, in the

43:25

first place. So

43:27

yeah, like the biblical idea and

43:30

especially like the Christ idea, like

43:32

Jesus was, he was

43:34

a fucking rebel who like

43:37

really pushed back against all

43:39

of the institutions of his time. Most

43:43

blatantly the religious institutions

43:45

of his time. He was completely

43:47

against them. And

43:51

that was a beautiful thing that like, that's what I really took

43:53

to heart. And that's what I couldn't reconcile

43:56

when like I would come back home

43:58

from Palestine here and

44:01

find like these Christian spiritual

44:03

leaders that I looked up to justifying

44:07

like the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians

44:09

by the state of Israel, when

44:11

like I came here inspired

44:13

by those same people to like

44:16

fight injustice and fight oppression

44:18

of the weak and subjugation

44:21

of marginalized people.

44:24

So like in a way like those same

44:26

Christian leaders set me up to

44:28

drop my Christianity because

44:31

they're fucking

44:33

Creeks big,

44:59

thank you to Tyler for both of the episodes that

45:01

he participated in. And as

45:03

always my hope for this podcast

45:05

and for these conversations is that

45:07

those of you listening are finding maybe

45:10

some solidarity, maybe a new perspective,

45:13

something to look up, something to shift in

45:15

you , um , and regardless,

45:18

feel free to check out all the ways that body

45:20

and mind podcasts, Instagram page for

45:22

updates on episodes, for information

45:25

shared for inspiring quotes, things

45:27

like that, and share with your friends

45:29

as you feel led. Thank

45:31

you so much for listening and sending love your

45:33

way.