0:00

Jonn Elledge: I think World War Two is a big part of our national psychosis.

0:04

That was a point in which Britain was unequivocally on the right side.

0:09

And it basically burnt up its empire and its status as a global power to

0:14

help save the world from fascism.

0:16

But it means that that's kind of the narrative we get instead of the

0:20

reckoning with the end of empire. And yeah, I think that does explain not quite all but almost

0:26

all of the politics of Brexit. Isabelle Roughol: Hi, I'm Isabelle Roughol and this is Borderline.

0:41

My friend Jonn Elledge joins us on the podcast today.

0:44

Jonn is the man that you want on your team at pub quiz.

0:46

One that you will never be bored sitting opposite at a dinner party

0:50

and that you definitely want in your Twitter feed and in your inbox.

0:53

He is the author of The Compendium of Not Quite Everything, a really fun

0:58

book full of short essays about...

1:01

not quite everything. Jonn is just someone who knows a lot about a lot of things.

1:05

And I brought him on the podcast thinking, I'm not quite sure what we'll talk about,

1:09

but I'm sure it's going to be interesting. And of course it did end up fascinating.

1:14

He an Englishman, me a French woman, we ended up comparing our national

1:17

mythologies, the legacies of our empires and why our national malaise

1:22

feels quite similar in both countries.

1:25

He even managed to maybe wade into a topic I usually back away from slowly

1:30

and that's explaining differences between French universalism and British

1:34

multiculturalism or US multiculturalism.

1:38

So a conversation freewheeling in a lot of different areas

1:42

that ends up being fascinating. We talked for over an hour.

1:46

I cut a bit. But honestly, on a conversation like this, if you start making cuts in

1:51

the middle, you really don't know how you got from point A to point B.

1:54

So this is a one-hour episode.

1:57

You can enjoy it at your own pace.

1:59

I think you won't regret it. Here's my chat with Jonn Elledge.

2:06

Jonn Elledge: Hello, Isabelle Roughol: I have to make a confession, which is it is the first

2:10

time in my career, definitely the career of this podcast, that I scheduled an

2:16

interview no idea exactly where I want to take it but but I feel like we're going to

2:25

end up somewhere fascinating in any way.

2:27

Jonn Elledge: also, I I'm, I'm just chatting nonsense

2:30

is, is kinda my, my, my main Isabelle Roughol: well, that's, that's wonderful.

2:33

So, because of the topic of this podcast, which you're familiar

2:37

with, I immediately jumped to the section on, section two, I believe

2:43

on, on all the countries and the... It's called the human planet and the ligns we draw on it, which for a podcast

2:49

called Borderline is, is delightful.

2:52

And learned a bunch of stuff.

2:55

I don't even know which one is start with. I was, and, that's, that's the marginalia that you saw me posting on Twitter

3:01

that seemed to have pleased you, but I was amused to note in the largest

3:06

countries and the smallest countries that it is one of the world's smallest

3:11

country where one of the world's largest countries has dumped all

3:15

the immigrants that it doesn't want. Um, namely, the island of Nauru, which hosts Australia's offshore

3:23

detention centers for migrants.

3:26

So that was a nice little tidbit. there.

3:28

Jonn Elledge: I didn't, realize that. That's horrific there. that is, that is cause it's I mean, Australia is not, not short of space.

3:34

Isabelle Roughol: No, it's not. it's adopted policies, you know, 10, 10, 15 years back now, that our own Priti

3:41

Patel is inspired by and would delight in which is refusing any arrival by, by boat,

3:50

any, asylum seeker to Australian shores.

3:56

So they are captured and kept in detention centers on the Pacific island of Nauru,

4:05

which has signed a deal with Australia.

4:07

A very, very poor country, obviously.

4:11

Very, very, few industries and, and very impacted by climate change

4:16

so, the one thing that they have is a, is an Australian detention

4:20

center where people can spend years and years in horrid condition.

4:25

Jonn Elledge: I was going to, I was going to say, I mean, it, it, it, it

4:28

is one of those countries that might literally physically cease to exist.

4:31

Isn't it? on the those could be just be under the waves by the end of the

4:35

Isabelle Roughol: Which you would think would give Australia a motivation to address climate change, I guess if nothing else.

4:42

Jonn Elledge: But this is, this is kind of the horror of this kind of politics though, is like.

4:45

It's you do kind of think that maybe that's, part of the sort of the, the, the,

4:50

this is the opposite virtue signaling, vermin-signaling someone was called it.

4:54

It's deliberately incredibly supervillain and horrible.

4:58

Cause that's how, how our, if the Australian government wants to

5:01

communicate to its, to its voters that it's being tough on, on, on immigration

5:07

and tough on, on, on refugees, which is like the the idea that we would

5:11

ever want to be tough and refugees is coming with quite seen in itself.

5:15

but just like the idea of dumping people on an island that is going to be

5:19

underwater possibly in our lifetimes.

5:21

it's just that it's that it's proper kind of James Bond villain shit.

5:25

Isn't it. Isabelle Roughol: It's something that I had never heard about until

5:28

I moved to Australia a few years ago is very little covered in Europe.

5:34

Even though we talk about immigration policy a lot, but we don't necessarily

5:37

see how it's done elsewhere.

5:40

Jonn Elledge: Yeah. It's I mean, I mean, particularly, particularly, but I suspect there is

5:45

an element of it in much of Europe too. Like we're quite, we're so sort of insular, we kind of look a little, we look

5:51

to the U S and see what's going on there, maybe a little bit from, from so Germany.

5:55

but often, or a little bit from Australia, but like most we have no idea what's

5:59

going on in most countries in the world. And suspect that's probably actually like, I wonder how true that is of

6:07

a lot of other, I mean, I suppose if you're, if you're Luxembourg, then, then

6:10

you kind of have to be more aware of, of what's going on around the place.

6:13

And also you probably don't have that much of your own news to worry

6:15

about, I suspect that kind of, the tendency to be kind of focused on a

6:20

relatively small pool of countries and be completely ignorant about what the

6:23

others I suspect is, is fairly universal.

6:25

Maybe. Isabelle Roughol: is at least, um, it's funny you should say that.

6:29

cause it's a, it's a journalistic project I have a four

6:32

Borderline of a new newsletter.

6:35

You'll you'll hear it here first. I don't know when that's going to come out, but to do precisely

6:39

that, kind of comparative, study of, of what's going on in the news.

6:43

at least in all the, countries I've lived in it's, it's pretty insular.

6:47

some less than other, you know, in, in, certainly in continental Europe,

6:50

you get more news somewhat of the rest of Europe, but not really.

6:56

it was fascinating in Australia that they are obsessed with

6:59

American news in many ways. so, you would hear about some random crime in Florida, it's always in Florida.

7:06

but not about, you know, very neighboring countries and in Asia Pacific.

7:12

Jonn Elledge: I think that's, I mean, I think, again, I suspect this is an

7:14

obsession with the U s is fairly, fairly universal, but I think that's probably,

7:18

I'm not sure that's actually irrational. Like it's.

7:23

I mean, one can argue about what or how one defines.

7:26

Yeah. I was going to say empire and boss pay too strongly, but certainly

7:29

hegemon . It is a hegemonic power.

7:31

What happens in the U S what happens in, in Washington DC and, you know, the

7:36

presidential elections in us foreign policy and so on, does have an impact

7:39

on, on the rest of us in a way that not that many countries politics do.

7:45

I mean, obviously lighting much of Europe would have been paying a lot

7:47

of attention to the recent German elections, for example, but, but

7:52

most countries elections are not that relevant to most of the countries.

7:55

Uh, whereas obviously American elections are going to have

7:59

an impact on the rest of us. So I suspect between that and the kind of the, the cultural dominance of, of

8:04

us products, means that I suspect that kind of spills over into like paying

8:08

attention to kind of wacky crimes in Florida and that kind of thing.

8:11

Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, perhaps, perhaps. Jonn Elledge: But it is, this helped keep track of how many is it now?

8:16

27 different countries in you. And plus like all the peripheral runs as, as the UK, sadly

8:20

husband, has been relegated to.

8:23

you can't keep track of all these things and fundamentally what the exact state

8:27

of the Slovenian government is, is probably not going to impact your life.

8:33

Isabelle Roughol: Fair enough. Jonn Elledge: So, yeah, I mean, I don't think it's that weird that...

8:39

do think it's appalling that we don't know in this, in this country.

8:43

I think there's appalling we don't pay more attention to, to particularly

8:46

French and German politics because that obviously they, they, you

8:50

know, be two big players in the EU.

8:53

And I think it's, it's insane how little, how ignorant people were about how,

9:00

how the institutions of the European Union work and what, what, what the work

9:04

going on in Brussels was actually is. and I don't think that's, I don't think that that's very far from

9:10

the only reason we ended up with Brexit, but I do think that.

9:12

kind of ignorance, which people could project their kind of worst fears onto,

9:18

was, was a big factor in where, why, why there was such high levels of, of

9:23

your skepticism in this country that Isabelle Roughol: Certainly helped on by, by national politicians and and.

9:29

Britain is bad, but, but certainly not the only one that's guilty of this.

9:33

certainly seen it in French politics a lot where, because people know so little

9:37

about how EU institutions work, it's very convenient when something unpopular

9:42

has to happen or, you know, a politician doesn't get their way, blame Brussels, So

9:49

to speak, to blame the EU, because it's, it's very convenient, in in election time.

9:55

And we we're, we're reaping the, the consequences of

9:58

that even on the continent. Though, I have to say that, what y'all have done here has, pulled

10:03

back or, or, or slowed the tide of Euro skepticism on the continent

10:08

because, it's not, it's not looking so good what Brexit looks looks like.

10:12

Jonn Elledge: Yeah, honestly, that's great. I always want it to be a cautionary tale.

10:15

Isabelle Roughol: No, it was good. Jonn Elledge: I mean, one of the things I find it's one of the things I find

10:21

fascinating about Brexit and where it's taking British politics is it did take

10:26

that vote to kind of generate a proper pro European movement in this country.

10:33

and, and, you know, that's, that's obviously a, a minority, even of the

10:37

the people who voted remain is quite a small minority, but nonetheless, I think

10:42

there are a lot more people in Britain who would consider themselves kind of

10:44

ardently pro European, then the word before that referendum, in a fetlock good,

10:49

it's done this, but I do kind of wonder.

10:53

The these things do sometimes kind of have unexpected

10:56

consequences over the longer term. Don't they like, they're loving the protest against the Iraq war didn't stop

11:00

the Iraq war, but then they'd help other movements, other protest movements.

11:04

So I do see the wonder, what would happen to all that kind of energy from like

11:09

the sort of the waivers, the society mad FBPE people, or just kind of this sort of

11:14

it, or just the way it sort of energize liberalism more generally in this country?

11:18

I think, I do think that there's probably going to be playing out in

11:21

politics for, for, for quite a long time.

11:23

It's just to be able to see it right now because we have this horribly liberatory

11:27

government of an 80-seat majority. Isabelle Roughol: Those FBP people we should, we should tell.

11:31

not everyone listening will know, especially to non Brits who, who they are.

11:35

They're I don't even know who they are, but I know they retweet me a lot and

11:39

they're very active in my mentions.

11:41

Jonn Elledge: Yeah, it's a hashtag. It stands for, it stands.

11:44

FPP stands for fullback pro Europe.

11:47

It's a lot of effort went into that, into that acronym.

11:50

Didn't it? but it's, it's, it's just people who sit on Twitter all day being like

11:55

angrily, anti Brexit and pre repair.

11:57

And like I'm, I've always considered myself very pro European by the founders

12:02

of this country and the like, I I'd be quite up for European superstate.

12:05

I'd be quite for world superstar. I think that's probably the way we need to go to solve some of our problems.

12:10

I have no issue with the idea of like handing sovereignty over to Brussels.

12:14

nonetheless, these people are a bit too pro-European for my taste.

12:17

It's a bit Colby. Isabelle Roughol: Which is, which is saying something.

12:20

Perhaps I'm a bit, unquestioning of everything EU, good, everything

12:26

current British government bad, which. Jonn Elledge: Yeah, exactly that.

12:30

And it's like, I think this country has been absolutely.

12:34

It is an absolute disaster zone at the moment, but there are still

12:38

things about this country that are, those are okay or even good.

12:41

And there are things about bits of continental Europe

12:44

that's not working very well. And there are things about like bras was, is quite dysfunctional in many ways.

12:48

And I don't think you have to, I don't think it's helpful to kind of like, just

12:53

start reading one side is as good in the other side, this is always terrible.

12:58

I, I don't think that's needed to understanding.

13:00

Isabelle Roughol: So you mentioned a superstate, I'm a, I'm a bit of a

13:03

Federalist definitely, where Europe is concerned, but w world superstate.

13:07

Tell, tell me more about that and why is that a solution?

13:12

Jonn Elledge: Oh, I just mean, so, so a lot of this is, is just being a nerd

13:18

and having grown up on a diet of like TVs science fiction like star Trek

13:21

or whatever, where like, you know, if you have like shows with spaceships

13:25

in set several hundred years in the future, and they do tend to take it

13:28

for granted that, that at some point there will be a, a single world state.

13:33

And partly that's because otherwise you're gonna, it's gonna complicate your plot mechanics.

13:38

But also it's because a lot of these shows tend to sort of use

13:41

different alien races and so on. It's kind of like a metaphors for foreign policy and so on.

13:45

And so earth is basically space America, isn't it.

13:48

But nonetheless, that kind of, that does just sort of mean that's always on

13:51

some level in my vision of the future.

13:54

I think there are problems we face that we come and solve at

13:57

at national level, like low. The, if you kind of look at sort of trying to manage, like this is a massive

14:04

global tech companies, that are bigger and richer and more powerful than most actual

14:09

nation states, I don't think that the architecture of 194 nation states isn't

14:15

necessarily the best way of doing that. and there are times when collective action is needed.

14:19

Like climate change is number one. there are, there are problems.

14:22

I think we face that will be easier to solve if you didn't have different

14:26

countries of, racing, competing in a race to the bottom, basically.

14:30

but this is, this is an absolute pipe dream. This is not me saying this is where I think things are actually going to

14:35

go, this has always been like this.

14:38

This was a factor in why I've always been instinctively pro European, as,

14:42

you know, as someone who like, I, I.

14:45

Seven years of school learning French. And I can barely speak a word.

14:48

I can just about read newspaper. I have no European languages.

14:51

I've never lived anywhere else or the UK. I'm quite parochial in many ways, but I've always instinctually been quite

14:58

sort of internationalist and outlook. And I think this is basically I'm blaming star Trek for that.

15:03

Isabelle Roughol: Maybe that's what we should do then in schools and teach star Trek,

15:08

Jonn Elledge: that could potentially open us up to charges

15:10

of child abuse, I suspect. But, but yeah,

15:13

so like, the, the nation state is it relatively recently mentioned, isn't it?

15:17

I mean, we often, a lot of our political debate of takes it as, I mean, again,

15:22

again, like being parochial until when I say a political debate, I'm

15:26

basically talking about this country. Cause I can't read it for a newspaper.

15:30

but, but I do feel like a lot of the debate does take it as read that there

15:34

is the nation is the net natural.

15:37

Of, of politics and government for much of history, that's not been true.

15:42

you know, for most of history it's been, you'd be, if you live in a city and

15:47

you have city states, you have empires. and there's only been, and there's, I think at this end of Europe, and nation

15:53

states slightly older, obviously both in Britain and France are more than a

15:56

thousand years old and Scotland too. that's even in Europe, that's quite unusual, isn't it like a

16:01

Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, and Jonn Elledge: lot of European nations are only a century or

16:04

Isabelle Roughol: I don't think you could even, you know, define

16:07

Frances a nation state until.

16:11

Napoleon, maybe like before that is kind

16:15

of, Jonn Elledge: they? Isabelle Roughol: yeah. I mean, French, French is a, is the Patois, the dialect of, you know,

16:21

a tiny, tiny corner around Paris.

16:24

And they were, there was, you know, different feuding aristocracy and,

16:30

the current borders of France are, I mean, if you add, some voids,

16:34

it's, you know, it's 150 years old.

16:36

So, , we like to tell because you know, nations are mainly into stories

16:41

to tell about themselves, right? So we'd like to, in Britain, you know, everyone talks about

16:46

10 66 and, and all of that.

16:48

and back into Carta and doomsday, whatever I'm learning, I've only

16:52

been here five years, but, but a lot of that is, is myth, right?

16:56

It's mythology to, to build a nation more than, more than genuine history.

17:02

And then you go into like the diversity of what these nations look like.

17:06

And I think a lot of people on the right would be surprised.

17:10

Jonn Elledge: Yeah. I mean, like took new national mythologies.

17:12

It's like we talk about the, the, the Norman invasion of 1066

17:18

is kind of like the last time England was successfully invaded.

17:21

And it's an absolute lie. Like we were invaded by the Dutch in 1688, but we just rewritten history

17:27

to pretend to pretend that, William of Orange was, was invited and he was

17:32

by one particular faction, which then took power because he became king.

17:36

But it's not like king had before that the whole country was crying out to

17:39

get this, to get this Dutch guy in. It was by any reasonable definition and invasion.

17:44

and we just don't, we don't talk about it in those, in those terms at all.

17:47

We just pretend it was something else. Isabelle Roughol: you know, when one story that I, that I keep hearing in

17:52

England that was driving me crazy is these kinds of, cliches about, the, the bread.

17:57

So the English specifically as, as these, nice people who don't riot and

18:04

don't, kill their Kings and Queens versus the dangerous revolutionary French.

18:09

And I actually did the math and you guys killed a lot more kings and Queens.

18:12

And so we did, Jonn Elledge: how many did we,

18:16

Isabelle Roughol: I counted to accounted to beheaded.

18:21

I forget who they are. Of course. Jonn Elledge: Charles Joseph's asked is the one is the one that everyone

18:26

Isabelle Roughol: yes, that's the one. Jonn Elledge: re Richard the second.

18:29

is deposed and dies. Suspiciously. I think the same is true of Edward the second.

18:33

there's a lot of that guy, but the. Yeah.

18:37

There's but you're right. It's all, it's all narrative.

18:40

So I did the idea of silly piece of my, my newsletter, recently just kind of

18:44

listing people who were by any reasonable definition, consider themselves at some

18:49

point the monarch of England, but we just don't count on the lists, including,

18:54

Louie abe, invaded in the 13th century and was welcomed by the city of London

18:59

with open arms because, because king Jonn was so deeply unpopular, he was

19:03

absolutely hated, to the extent that like, everyone was like quite happy to get the

19:08

French king in and let him take over. we just sort of like, there was a six month period in which Louis V8

19:13

considered himself king of England. And we just, we pretend that never happened.

19:17

Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, I'm sorry to say we are, we are pretty much cousins.

19:20

I'm Norman too. So, you know, from the other side of the water, but we're, we're pretty

19:24

much the same, the same people, um, mythology, non withstanding.

19:30

Jonn Elledge: yeah, I wonder how it looks to the rest of the world, the

19:32

lay like England and France, kind of like both kind of, define themselves

19:36

against each other, to some extent for much of the last 800 years or something.

19:41

but I suspect from the perspective, much less rest of the world, they

19:44

look quite historically similar. Actually, I suspect they don't look like radically cause you know, they

19:49

were both very early nation states and then the related of Imperial powers,

19:55

the women around the world doing, doing horrible things to people.

19:57

and both they're both you know, pretty, pretty arrogant

20:01

about their place in the world. Right. Isabelle Roughol: Yes. Well, it was, it was my theory when I was, when I was living in the U S

20:07

that France And the us were so often at odds because essentially both

20:12

thought way too highly of themselves. And the same can be said of, of, living in Britain now, I think, it's, it's all

20:18

of these countries with very lofty ideas of what they represent to the world who

20:24

end up quite surprised and, and hurt in their ego when, Uh, turns out not

20:29

to be the case, which it feels like the current malaise in, in, britain.

20:36

and certainly will sound very familiar to the French as well.

20:40

Jonn Elledge: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of our problem is we have, it's not even that

20:45

we've not come to terms with empire. It's like, we just stopped talking about it.

20:51

Like I think I found this very early on in life.

20:55

Talk to Irish friends. Realizing the extent to which the history is taught in Irish school is,

21:00

is basically just a list of, English atrocities who have used Scottish

21:05

atrocities and then British atrocities. that is Irish history basically.

21:09

we are not taught any of that here. And, you could, you couldn't be because like, we were also busy,

21:14

performing atrocities in, in India and then latterly in Africa too.

21:19

and, I don't, I don't know enough about how other European Imperial powers have

21:24

kind of dealt with the legacy of this stuff, but we just do not talk about

21:28

it, to the point we, at least we didn't.

21:32

Isabelle Roughol: Um, Jonn Elledge: Campbell. this means we have no idea what their own history looks like.

21:36

Like the history I was taught at school, just randomly because of the modules

21:41

that were chosen by the teachers. did nothing between the execution of Charles the first in 1649 and the rise

21:48

of Otto Von Bismarck in, in the 1860s.

21:51

and there's quite a lot that happens in those two centuries.

21:53

And most of it involves going around the world and stealing

21:55

other people's countries. Isabelle Roughol: That's That's the years of British slavery,

21:58

essentially that you just skipped over.

22:01

Jonn Elledge: Yeah, it is taught in schools that Britain, the British

22:05

Navy abolished the slave trade. And that is true.

22:08

It just does ignore the fact that they also basically invented the

22:11

triangular, transatlantic slave trade.

22:14

and it's. Yeah, it's, we, we are just much more comfortable with discussing

22:18

certain bits of a history level. I mean, how is this the same in France.

22:21

How does it Isabelle Roughol: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's quite similar.

22:25

at the moment, it's interesting because you'll have the whole war on woke and

22:29

all that has, unfortunately, crossed the Channel after it crossed the Atlantic.

22:35

And it's definitely part of the conversation and.

22:39

You know, it's something that I realized as an adult.

22:41

I, I realized that I didn't learn anything for instance, or very little

22:47

in school about the Algerian war.

22:51

you know, I, I know that it was a peace treaty in 1962 and that, know, that

22:55

was, that was, thanks to De Gaulle or at least that's how it's presented.

22:59

but you know, torture colonization, we learned very little about colonization,

23:05

you know, besides, oh, you know, it was a different time and it wasn't

23:08

immoral at the time, which, you actually, you could argue plenty

23:11

of people it immoral at the time. And during the 2017 campaign, Macron called, called colonialism

23:20

a crime against humanity. and it was quite a lot of outrage about that, which, which

23:25

I found fascinating because. I it from a family that was involved, my grandfather was in a colonial

23:33

administration, obviously not in a colonizing time, more in the

23:36

final years before independence. and and he stayed on in Africa in a, in a first decade of independence to,

23:42

to work with, with local governments.

23:45

And in a family like mine, it was not shocking at all.

23:48

Like we have perfectly come to terms with the fact that colonization was

23:52

wrong and that in that particular case, you know, my grandfather was

23:58

saw he was doing the right thing, but was on the wrong side of history.

24:01

But I think people who don't have a closer knowledge of what, what

24:07

the empire was in a way, all they have in their head is the mess.

24:12

and the very little that they got about it in school and very warped

24:17

imagery that they got through through media and through culture.

24:20

And so the notion is there's a word in the public discourse in France, and the

24:25

knowledge I'll stop, but there's a word in a public discourse in france called

24:28

the hood portals, which is, like you know, being overly, sorry, and repenting

24:37

for things that you've done in the past.

24:39

And essentially people think that's awful and that you shouldn't do it.

24:42

And that, you know, what's in the past is in the past and let's move

24:45

on without ever apologizing for it.

24:48

Which I find just, I it's nothing.

24:50

it's something, I mean, it's been in the discourse since I was a

24:52

child and I never understood. I was like, if you've done something bad, you should apologize for it.

24:57

That's what people do. Right. it's quite confusing to me.

25:01

Jonn Elledge: Yeah, it smacks of insecurity, doesn't it?

25:04

Like if you think your country is so great, then why can't you accept

25:07

that, that there are times that it got stuff wrong, like, and it just,

25:14

I don't quite understand the sense of that, that level of sensitivity

25:18

that means you call, except for that, that the history is, is, has, has bad

25:23

stuff in it as well as good, you know? Isabelle Roughol: Yeah. I mean, the reaction in this country to any suggestion that Winston

25:29

Churchill was not just a hero of World War II, but it was also profoundly

25:33

reviled in India for his role there.

25:36

you know, the idea that there might be more than one side to the character, seems

25:40

to really shock people, just like the, um, the National Trust report, about the

25:45

connection of slavery, of, of some of these beautiful estates to, to slavery and

25:51

Jonn Elledge: yeah. Isabelle Roughol: and to the colonial trade. it's like, it's impossible to hold two ideas in your head at the same

25:56

time that someone can be a hero and a villain or something can be

26:00

beautiful and extremely tainted. Jonn Elledge: So I think, I think world war two is, as you will know,

26:06

having lived in this country for five years, will go to is, is a big part

26:10

of our national psychosis just, and they think it's that, you know, that

26:15

that was a point in which Britain. You know, obviously we, we did the w there were plenty of things that we got

26:22

wrong as well, but in the, in Britain was was unequivocally on the right

26:25

side and it did a good thing, and it, it basically burnt up its, its empire

26:31

and its status as a global power to, to help save the world from fascism.

26:37

and so that becomes the narrative. Like we say, like, because we, because Britain was never occupied in the

26:41

way France was, we didn't have, we didn't have a lot of the horror.

26:45

So it's seen, it's recently treated as a bit of a sort the theme park.

26:49

but, but it means that that's kind of the narrative we get instead of

26:53

the reckoning with the end of empire. Like, we don't talk about the end of empire because it just kind

26:57

of like faded away during and immediately after world war II.

27:02

so, so instead of. Instead of kind of looking at this period in which, in which we would have

27:08

had to come to terms with the fact that we'd been, we'd been, colonizing other

27:11

countries and that's not okay, really. instead get this sort of heroic narrative, you know, Britain stands alone.

27:17

So either nevermind the fact that's got a half a billion people, in

27:20

this empire standpoint as well. it just means that that sets the narrative, rather than the end of empire.

27:26

and yeah, I think that does explain not quite, all but almost

27:30

all of the politics of Brexit. I think, someone, I think it was the one-time guardian journalist.

27:36

Michael White said to me many, many years ago I was doing, student, most

27:40

as dissertation on your skepticism in the bin, the British press.

27:44

And he pointed out that there were only two countries in the EU 15.

27:49

At that point it must have just expanded. it was around 2004.

27:53

There were only two countries in, in the U as events did that had not

27:57

been occupied at any point in the 20th century by enough of power.

28:01

And they were the United Kingdom and Sweden.

28:04

And both of those were right at the top of the year.

28:08

It gets in Charles because it is much harder to conceive of, of firstly.

28:13

I think if, if, if you haven't been occupied by foreign army, it is

28:17

easier to believe in the abstract notion of national sovereignty.

28:21

And secondly, it is hard to see why you need, international cooperation sometimes.

28:26

Isabelle Roughol: I mean it's Jonn Elledge: So I feel like babbling at your site.

28:28

Isabelle Roughol: no, no, no, not at all. Not at all. We're we're definitely, it's interesting because we're, we're seeing the same

28:33

thing, you know, even in our countries on the continent that have been occupied,

28:38

which is because that generation that has known this has pretty much died off.

28:44

And the generation of children who grew up. With their parents remembering the war is, you know, that's my parents'

28:51

generation and they're getting older. and so there is an, even in a political discourse, you know, there was certainly

28:58

a strong return if it ever went away of anti-Semitism, that is and and

29:05

spoken out loud, of anti migrant and anti-refugee sentiment of, of anti

29:12

European sentiment, that you just wouldn't have heard 20, 30 years ago.

29:18

but because there was less and less of that lived experience, you know, my

29:21

generation, we all had, pretty much all had a Holocaust survivor or world war II

29:26

veteran come and talk to us at school. Kids today don't get that, and so that experience is slowly fading

29:33

away and the you can see it in the, in the political discourse.

29:40

Jonn Elledge: a discussion is probably not quite the right word. Hasn't been much of a reckoning with, with Vichy and whilst chunk of

29:47

Southern France basically collaborative in those years, the blind blind?

29:51

The way we have blind spots Isabelle Roughol: no, I think that is pretty, that is pretty acknowledged.

29:57

it wasn't any, you know, years immediately following the war, apparently.

30:00

I mean, I wasn't born, but it's pretty much acknowledged now.

30:03

There was a wonderful, french TV show, Videsh hall.

30:09

Say a French village. I don't know what they translated it in english, but that

30:13

was running for many years. from French public television, it's looking at one village

30:18

through the occupation. So it starts when, when the Nazi.

30:21

Kind of when the war, until deliberation and, and, it's looking

30:26

at one village and how people behaved and it's extremely detailed.

30:29

and no one is a hundred percent good.

30:32

No one is a hundred percent evil either. and so that, narrative, and that was extremely popular in France.

30:36

And so I think that narrative is, is pretty, is pretty well accepted.

30:42

I think we have at least got that.

30:47

Jonn Elledge: that's that's interesting because yeah, like you mentioned

30:49

Churchill, and how he is just kind of treated as this uncomplicated heroic

30:53

figures if he wasn't, you know, by not even by modern standards, by the standards

30:57

of his own time, he was a racist as well.

31:00

but also even leaving that aside, can make a fairly strong argument that, that it was

31:06

decisions he made that were responsible for the Bengal Thurman of 1944, which

31:10

killed millions of people because of the way he wanted to redirect resources from,

31:15

from, from what's now sort of Eastern England, India, and Bangladesh to, to,

31:22

to the UK, to, to help the war effort.

31:25

and yeah, it's, you, you, you cannot say, you cannot say that about Churchill

31:29

without getting absolutely piled on. also, also later told me you were about to go into poppy season.

31:34

You were Isabelle Roughol: Oh, Jonn Elledge: season. Isabelle Roughol: I, you know, I, I lived in America, post nine 11,

31:40

I lift, and through the Iraq war. So I'm well familiar with the displays of, visual, patriotism,

31:49

Jonn Elledge: It's a slightly room tone though. Cause I think compared to both the U S and I think even france and much of

31:54

Europe, like we don't really deal in for, you know, public buildings, not

31:58

generally display flags, people did not really kind of like have their own.

32:02

We don't tend to go in for those to the public. Patriotism, but for those who aren't familiar, every November 11th is

32:09

remembrance day, which is the day we were meant to remember the war dead.

32:14

And if that one remembered Sunday, this the closest Sunday to that,

32:17

there's a minute silence and so on and the parade and those kind of things.

32:20

but, but though the Royal British Legion, which is a charitable body raising money

32:25

for veterans, has for first-line was anyone can ever remember been selling,

32:30

paper puppies as a way of raising money.

32:35

and. as you get into sort of mid to late October, you start getting

32:39

like public figures who appear on TV without wearing a poppy.

32:42

We'll get pylons on social media. biggest thing showing support for a veteran it's, it's, it's insane.

32:49

Unlike like it's, you know, when I, when I was a kid, I always used

32:52

to buy a pop and I always used to wear it because they're quite nice

32:54

objects apart from anything else. but now I feel like I don't want to do that anymore.

32:59

I, because I don't want to, like, I, I will give that I will make that

33:02

charitable contribution, but I do not want to kind of look like I'm

33:05

taking that sides in a culture war.

33:08

And I wonder if, to some extent, this is because we have got, we are getting

33:11

to the point, there are, there are almost no veterans of the war, of Devin.

33:16

There's any veterans of world war one at this point. but I think there are very, very few of world war two and

33:20

all in the nineties and so on. I think it's because it is receding into the past that other actors

33:26

have moved in and kind of like politicize this for their own motives.

33:31

Isabelle Roughol: We'll be right back. Hey, it's Isabelle.

33:34

I want to tell you about something new that's available from Borderline.

33:37

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33:41

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34:58

Now, back to our conversation with John Elledge.

35:02

Jonn Elledge: I do think like people are. Don't realize quite what a recent invention nation state was and how like,

35:09

you know, in, in, in the, in the, 19th century, nationalism in europe was.

35:14

was seen as the progressive force, but it was about self-determination.

35:18

It was about people kind of taking, know, having taken control

35:21

of their own affairs from these kinds of multi-national empires.

35:25

but for much of history that has been the sort of unit you don't necessarily expect

35:29

to be in, in kind of a political unit where everyone is from the same kind of

35:34

ethnic or linguistic group as yourself. there there's a relatively, there's a relatively, recent recent thing.

35:40

and, I, if, if you kind of look at this at a grand sweep of human history, I

35:45

do not necessarily think that there is a reason to imagine that the nation

35:49

state world is going to persist forever.

35:52

and I think it probably does get replaced by something else, somewhere down the

35:56

line, even if we don't know what that is. Isabelle Roughol: I interviewed, really early on in the story of this podcast,

36:02

author, called Hassan Damluji, and he's written this book called a responsible

36:06

globalist, and it subtitles is what globalists should learn from nationalists.

36:11

And he essentially looks at how the nation state was born and, and why it was such

36:15

a great success and how you could try and essentially replicate that at a global

36:21

level and create that same feeling of, you know, weird tribalism and belonging

36:29

to a nation, but at a, at a global level, at this size of humanity, essentially.

36:36

the challenge is, as you were saying, you know, with, with star Trek, it helps

36:40

to have an alien race to somehow create some kind of us versus them dynamic.

36:45

It's very hard to unite people without a sense of, uN other, that's, that's

36:49

out there that we need to unite against even without going to war,

36:53

you know, but that sense of, we have something in common that others don't.

37:00

Jonn Elledge: Would you think that's, I mean, you were saying earlier that like France as it is now really only kind of comes, comes to be in

37:07

the Southern pony or liquor era. Do you think a function of that with the required?

37:10

There are quite a few years in that time when like everybody else

37:14

in Europe was at war with you. Do you think that was factor in the kind of creation of a French identity?

37:20

The spreads were far beyond Paris. Isabelle Roughol: Well, the French identity I think it's something,

37:24

and I'm by no means an expert scholar of this, but I think is very

37:29

interesting because it's something that was very largely consciously

37:33

manufactured in the 19th century.

37:37

because people used to be much more closely, attached to their region

37:43

and their local, their village. People up into late into the 19th century very frequently spoke their

37:50

local dialect much more fluently and frequently than, than they spoke French.

37:55

And what the third Republic did so that's the kind of the second half or

38:00

last quarter really of the, of the 19th century was, have, free and

38:06

Jonn Elledge: Um, Isabelle Roughol: public schools that in French and took kids out of their

38:11

families to teach them not only the language, but also the values, the

38:15

Republican values kind of against the church, which still was very powerful.

38:20

And so that sentiment of belonging to the nation, which is also a sentiment

38:25

that is very Republican, in the, you know, Republic sense of the world, not

38:30

the American Republican sense of the word, that was very consciously created.

38:35

And so what's interesting is that, essentially anyone can be French

38:39

as long as you adhere to that. Which is why, you know, there's French language, skill tests to pass,

38:47

to get into, to get citizenship.

38:50

and you know, I mean, there's been much written about any English world about,

38:55

Lacy T and this idea of secularism and why you can't wear a hijab in a French school.

39:01

So in a way, anyone can be French, but as long as you very strictly

39:04

adhere to this notion of what it means to be French, which was, which

39:08

was created in the 19th century. So it's very different from English or American multiculturalism.

39:14

And it doesn't necessarily adapt very well to the 21st century into what the

39:20

population of France looks like today, which is why there's a lot of tension

39:25

around these things at the moment. Jonn Elledge: It feels to me that like, like, France and Britain

39:32

have very different experiences of, of multiculturalism.

39:36

There feels to me the like Britain's from, from ethnic minorities are,

39:42

are more prominent in, in top positions, in, you know, media or

39:47

entertainment or even politics. I mean, two of the great offices of states are helped by, sorry, two

39:53

of the four great offices of state. the challenge is we're in the home secretary, are held by,

39:58

by people of Indian heritage. and it am I right in thinking that it's not there, isn't really a direct

40:04

parallel for that in, in front of. Isabelle Roughol: Um, no, it certainly isn't.

40:07

I mean, the country is also, you know, just, if you look at the

40:10

demographics less diverse done, then, you can certainly in London.

40:15

but there is also, well, there's two things.

40:18

One is, is, yes, there are still there is still certainly, an institutional

40:24

racism though, even though if you say that word in France, I will start over.

40:29

Ugly debate, but there is certainly institutional racism.

40:32

there's also just kind of a different notion of, of what it

40:36

means to, be a diverse society.

40:41

multiculturalism is kind of a dirty word.

40:44

The idea is that when you come to friends and you become French, you

40:47

kind of shed what differentiated you.

40:51

so I have many issues with that because that essentially, is a lot easier to do

40:55

if you're a white Christian immigrant. And if you are a black Muslim immigrant, for instance, but, but essentially,

41:02

those, those differentiations aren't made in the same way.

41:05

You don't, you don't hyphenate, You know, you're not, you're not Indian

41:10

French in a way that you can be, British, south Asian or you're not,

41:15

they're very, very different, notions.

41:18

My gosh, I really, we need a scholar to explain this, to explain this better.

41:23

but yes, there was very, very much fewer minorities in government

41:29

and in positions of power. and even when they are there, um, tend to not draw attention to, to that difference.

41:41

Jonn Elledge: I should say, cause I could have started you down this road.

41:44

I should say this is not me saying like Brittany's like a multicultural

41:47

paradise where like we then did racism was I absolutely don't think that,

41:52

that's absolutely not my, my position.

41:54

but it is kind of fascinating the way, like.

41:58

Pretty much every country or every country over any diversity of

42:02

population in it does seem to issues kind of like racism and prejudice and

42:08

Isabelle Roughol: Oh, Jonn Elledge: but they do, they do manifest completely different

42:11

in different countries in a way I find like weirdly fascinating.

42:14

Isabelle Roughol: It's a really fascinating conversation

42:18

and debate that's happening. Unfortunately it's not always done with a very calm demeanor or attitude to it, but,

42:27

you know, essentially a lot of people in France see multiculturalism in the British

42:33

or the American fashion arrive in France.

42:35

And certainly gen Z is much more his influenced by American culture and is

42:40

certainly much more of that perspective on things, which in France has called

42:45

essentialist, which is essentially defining people by their origins, by

42:50

their skin color, et cetera, versus France aspires to be universalist, which

42:55

is essentially everyone is the same and those differences don't exist, which is

43:00

you know, a nice and lofty ideal, but it's not actually how people treat one another.

43:06

It's certainly not how the state treats people.

43:08

So a bit like an, I don't see color kind of thing, which isn't real.

43:14

but, but that, French institutions still very much hold on to, and

43:18

I have, I have some sympathy for it, because how to expresses...

43:27

I do feel sometimes, you know, and that's the French in me, that those

43:30

differentiations are too exacerbated in a public discourse, to the point

43:36

that it becomes the only thing that you start to see about people.

43:40

And that makes those conversations very difficult to have across communities.

43:46

and so they end up being a bit siloed.

43:49

But, I also think that the French way you really won't and cannot

43:55

last, because that's certainly not how younger French generations see

43:59

it today, but that makes sense.

44:03

Jonn Elledge: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

44:08

Yes, sir. My brain is completely gone home. Isabelle Roughol: No, I mean.

44:11

we, we went, we went in a completely somewhere else.

44:16

Jonn Elledge: we've been all Isabelle Roughol: That's going to be an interesting edit. Jonn Elledge: one of the things I find, I mean, one of the many,

44:23

many, almost infinite number of things I find depressing about

44:25

Brexit and everything that has come from it, one of them is that.

44:30

like, in some ways like Britain is Britain is I think it might be

44:34

the most multicultural country in Europe is certainly near the top.

44:37

There's plenty of, you know, young, black, British men particularly

44:40

are going to face loads of racism. And so it's not like we don't have huge issues, but you can also point to

44:45

certain things and say, okay, there are bits of this we are doing quite well.

44:49

and none of that Is is the narrative we are, we are telling about

44:53

ourselves because It's all... I mean, I suppose, I suppose to some extent, the Brexit vote worst, to some

44:59

extent, a kind of reaction against the success of, of multiculturalism and

45:04

liberalism and, you know, and those are, cause these, these qualities can

45:08

get tied up with bound up with London as a city, which is in, as, as you'll

45:13

know, living here, you know, it's a huge international city it's and you

45:17

can be from anywhere and be a Londoner. And no, no, one's really going to question that and it's kind of

45:21

possible to switch allegiance to a different city And where you can't

45:24

switch nationalities quite so easily. so like to an extent, Brexit was an older generation kind of kicking back

45:31

against the fact that their kids are a lot more diverse and liberal than they are.

45:37

but nonetheless, it does kind of mean the face that Britain

45:40

has shown the world recently. And England particularly is, is that of kind of like a sort of

45:46

like aging middle-aged reactionary.

45:49

whereas I think from a liberal internationalist perspective, I

45:52

think there are, there are a lot of things about this country that we,

45:55

we we can actually be quite proud of, but there's other ones that we've,

45:59

we've foregrounded the top recently.

46:01

We've just got this there's nasty, the nasty people hate foreign isn't church.

46:05

So Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, it's been, it's been extremely dissonant

46:09

for me as an immigrant here. Jonn Elledge: When did you arrive by the way?

46:12

Isabelle Roughol: So I arrived. I got my contract to move here on the day of the Brexit referendum.

46:17

Yeah, So it's easy to remember. I was living in Australia at the time.

46:21

and I had, you know, already my, my company moved me here, had already

46:25

had that conversation with my boss and I was already emotionally

46:28

invested in, in moving to London. And, and I got the contract on the day of the referendum and kind of watch the

46:34

news, you know, it was, it was daytime in Australia, watched the news, watch

46:38

my contract was like, what do I do? but I was, I, you know, I was, I was like, oh, they can't possibly, you know, Dell,

46:45

Dell, Dell Brexit, but not really eat.

46:47

I'll stay in the single Martin and CA you know, they just did just shot themselves

46:51

in the foot, but it won't be that bad. you know, didn't see the next five years coming.

46:57

but Jonn Elledge: I mean, I sort of think it was sorry I interrupted, but I, I saw

47:01

the think it was the, it was because it was quite a close vote that, yeah, it

47:07

was like a couple of points could move. So you can make a compelling argument that almost anything

47:12

could have swung it the other way. But I think one of the weird side effects of this is, the, the, the

47:17

pro-Brexit leaves sides kind of had to go around talking as if

47:21

it was an overwhelming mandate. Like, I think the very narrowness of it meant that they didn't feel

47:26

they could compromise, which is not,

47:30

I'm not saying this is good behavior, but I can sort of like,

47:33

see how, how it happens in her life. If it had been 60 40 for leave, it probably would have been much easier

47:38

to kind of, cause they wouldn't have been that insecurity about whether

47:41

or not it was actually going to happen because you know, that we

47:43

use, you know, there were, there were several years where it genuinely felt

47:46

like maybe we could walk it back. Isabelle Roughol: Yeah.

47:49

When you think that today, if you did the vote again, you know, it wouldn't pass.

47:54

if, if you citizens that live in the UK had had the right to vote

47:59

the same way that Commonwealth citizens did, it wouldn't have fast.

48:02

If 16 year old had had the right to vote, who are being, you know, who

48:06

are young adults now impacted by it?

48:09

it wouldn't have happened either, but it has been really, really dissonant

48:13

Jonn Elledge: Yeah. Isabelle Roughol: how wonderfully welcoming London has been and

48:19

diverse on probably of all the cities that I've lived in.

48:23

I've lived in many, the place that feels most easy to be myself in as a.

48:32

As a French woman, who's, not French enough and two feminists for Paris.

48:36

and as a, I mean, it's just, it, you know, it feels right.

48:40

The city does, but in the country really doesn't and I've often considered leaving

48:47

and I'm still decide, because the politics have been so hostile to people like

48:52

myself and has been made so much more complicated by literally having to have

48:57

an Excel spreadsheet where I counting the days that I spent outside the country.

49:01

So I don't lose my eligibility for settled status and for citizenship next year.

49:07

So it's yeah.

49:10

Jonn Elledge: There's as we were talking about at the top of the show load that

49:13

Australia dumping all its refugees on the island country an hour, it, it's the same

49:20

kind of impulse you see in the British home office to deliberately make things

49:24

as unpleasant and as difficult as possible as a signal to, both, to, to, you know.

49:31

both as a signal to say, to tell people not to come here, but also as

49:34

a signal to particular voters that it just being hard-lined on this stuff.

49:38

it's yeah, it's just awful. I mean, they do kind of feel like you said, you sort of imagined

49:42

we'd stay in the single market. My sort of suspicion is that long-term we probably end up back in.

49:48

the single, I don't, I don't imagine whatever, if that makes it a grand

49:52

unified theory of Brexit is that like whatever happens in, however, the

49:56

vote had gone in 2016, our long-term destiny is to end up in, in the single

50:01

market, but not in any political union.

50:04

Like even if li even if remain had won that referendum, there will, at some point

50:08

be a country called Europe and Britain would not want to go into that, but they

50:12

do kind of think the economic logic of, of being part of the single market will,

50:15

will over time, become overwhelming.

50:18

I think we're probably just going to very gradually rebuild our position

50:21

in, the single market piece by piece. what that means for, for, freedom of movement.

50:27

I don't know. I spent probably a way of being able to walk that one back, but spare,

50:31

they do kind of think we would, you know, too much of our trade is

50:34

naturally going to be review Europe. and this one's going to be hard because there's going to be loads of

50:38

there are going to be empty shelves because you can't get products into.

50:41

Isabelle Roughol: I'm I'm, I'm going home.

50:44

I've booked my ferry tickets. I'm going home for Christmas.

50:47

Knock on wood. provided, rules don't change again.

50:50

I'm going, I'm going home with my car. so I'll come back with a car full of food.

50:55

So, you know, take your orders now.

50:59

I'll, I'll make sure to do my part like Dunkirk style two to

51:02

supply, to supply England with a much needed food and petrol.

51:08

Jonn Elledge: Please, please. We need all the help we can get right now.

51:12

Isabelle Roughol: Oh, well, I mean, that's, that's a whole other, that's a

51:15

whole other episode potentially, but, I'm fascinated with how the backlash

51:19

on globalization ends up destroying free movement, but maintaining.

51:27

Ultimately we'll maintain free trade because there's too much money at stake.

51:31

and capital won't let it happen. but so I find it fascinating that essentially people are rightly identifying

51:37

all the problems of capitalization, but they're taking it out on migrants instead

51:41

of taking it out on, you know, re you know, global capital that's run amok.

51:48

It's yeah, that's a whole other episode, as I said,

51:52

Jonn Elledge: Yeah. it's going back to the state of play last winter, it was literally

51:58

easier to get into this country as a virus than it was as a human being.

52:04

which, which feels slightly the wrong way round.

52:06

but we all, we all, we all should like, should I, sorry, just conscious.

52:10

I, the name of the book or something, Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, absolutely.

52:13

Tell us, tell us about the book please.

52:16

Shamelessly, uh, plug it.

52:19

Jonn Elledge: Yeah. So the book is called The Compendium of Not Quite Everything.

52:23

It's out now from, from headline. and it's about a hundred sort of mini essays on all sorts of topics.

52:30

Just random things that I find interesting, really.

52:32

So it starts with some creation, lifts, and then my sort of 800 word

52:37

summary of the big bang and the creation of the universe and evolution.

52:40

There's a lot of stuff about galaxies and stars and planets and stuff, or

52:43

how many countries are in the world. And that one of the biggest islands and bits on the history of numbers

52:49

and mathematics and this person particularly stupid wars, that's a fun

52:54

Isabelle Roughol: That is a fun one. A lot of them about cows,

52:58

Jonn Elledge: There's certainly, there've been surprising. Number of wars where the cows, although my FA my favorite of the

53:02

stupid wars is the, the, the EMU Isabelle Roughol: the EMU war.

53:05

Yeah. Yeah. Especially the EMU one.

53:08

Uh, Jonn Elledge: which she, Australian army went to war against some

53:10

large flightless birds lost twice.

53:14

it's one of my favorite stories from all of history. but yeah, there's, the, the very nice line in, in, in, the review in the, daily mail.

53:21

So the, the it's very unlikely. You'll be interested in everything in this book, but it's extremely unlikely.

53:25

You will be interested in something, so, you know, please buy it, please

53:29

buy it for anyone in your life. You don't know what to get for Christmas because they will hopefully enjoy it.

53:32

Isabelle Roughol: I will, I will second that. And I think for listeners to this podcast, I was saying earlier, the,

53:37

the second section is, is fascinating.

53:41

I appreciate that as an Englishman,

53:44

you are English, right? Yes, you are.

53:47

Jonn Elledge: boringly English. I live in, I live in the east end of London.

53:52

I once tried tracing my, my, my family tree and I got back as far as my great,

53:56

great, great grandfather, Jonn Elledge, which is the same as my name who lives

54:01

in the same postcode as I do now. So like all that's happened in 200 years as that I've learned

54:07

to misspell my own name. Isabelle Roughol: Well, I we're, we're big into genealogy.

54:13

My brother has gone back to like the 13th century, I think.

54:18

And the, and we're French. It's extremely boring.

54:20

We're friends. All the time, like there, you know, we've moved a bit from, essentially

54:25

we've, at some point people went up to Paris to try and get rich, which they

54:30

did, but then they got poor again. but it's just a story of many families really.

54:35

but no, I appreciate that in the book, as an English man, you, you

54:38

recognize how absolutely bonkers the Imperial system of measurement is.

54:43

it's absolutely insane. It is the

54:45

one Jonn Elledge: there's no internal logic to it Isabelle Roughol: none.

54:48

Jonn Elledge: So yeah, there is an entry that's just to me getting increasingly furious Imperial

54:52

Isabelle Roughol: Hmm. Jonn Elledge: and like the metric system is one of the best things that France has

54:56

Isabelle Roughol: it. Jonn Elledge: the world. Towering intellectual achievement.

55:01

Isabelle Roughol: We make, we make up for it by counting and really weird ways.

55:05

so do you know how you see 90 in French?

55:08

I mean, you've taken seven years of French. It's a

55:13

Jonn Elledge: I can do that's the bit I got. Isabelle Roughol: it's Katelyn Vandy.

55:15

So it's four times 20 plus. Jonn Elledge: Yeah.

55:18

Isabelle Roughol: is the weirdest way of saying 90.

55:21

So we do have some quirks as well.

55:25

Jonn Elledge: Well, isn't that what makes a nation really?

55:28

Isabelle Roughol: Well, that's, that's a good line to end on. Thank you so much, Jonn really

55:32

appreciate this, this conversation of not quite everything, we didn't

55:36

do quite everything, but almost I appreciate it.

55:40

Jonn Elledge: That's very, much. My vibe is just like, I'm just trying to work out how to kind of monetize talking

55:44

notes in this about random subjects. That's kind of like plan for the

55:47

Isabelle Roughol: Well, and, and you do it very well.

55:50

and we should say you have a newsletter of the same source

55:52

as well that people can sign up for. Jonn Elledge: because the newsletter is not quite everything, is, you

55:57

know, the brand and the gene, Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, you've got a brain there.

56:01

Jonn Elledge: there has also been, the podcast is not quite everything, which

56:03

we've just, we've, we've just finished the first season of, in which basically have

56:08

a fairly rambling conversations like this.

56:10

And he, with me as the interviewer with, with an expert.

56:13

So I spoke to, people like the historian, Alexandre kinsmen, or the

56:16

comedian, the hair Shaw, or a guy called , who's a German astronomer.

56:20

Who's the guy, who's the first man to take a picture of a black hole.

56:23

So it's, it's completely random.

56:25

It's just based on me finding interesting people I wanted to talk to, which

56:29

is the dream really as a journalist. Isabelle Roughol: I mean, that's, that's why we chose this profession.

56:32

Right. So we'll make sure to put all the links in the show notes so people can

56:37

go and buy the book, sign up for the newsletter, listened to the podcasts,

56:41

all with my warm recommendation.

56:43

Thank you so much, Jonn. Jonn Elledge: Thank you much for having me.

56:46

Isabelle Roughol: My pleasure. The Compendium of Not Quite Everything by Jonn Elledge is

56:52

available now from headline. And I can confirm that it definitely makes for a great Christmas present

56:58

because yes, we're already there thinking about Christmas presents, for people

57:02

with a curious mind in your life. You'll also find links to the podcast of, not quite everything and the newsletter

57:08

of not quite everything in the show notes.

57:10

This is also my opportunity to tell you that if you buy the book from the link in

57:15

the show notes, or from Borderlinepod.com, you will be supporting Borderline.

57:20

I've opened a bookshop, simply an affiliate program with bookshop.org,

57:24

which supports independent bookstores in the UK and the U S and through

57:28

this affiliate program can now also support this independent media.

57:33

You'll find books from guests on the podcast, anything that's referenced

57:37

or talked about here, as well as other recommendations that I think Borderline

57:41

listeners and readers will enjoy.

57:43

All you need to do is click through the Borderline bookshop, you'll buy the books

57:47

in just the same way as you usually do, but it will help support this podcast.

57:51

As I mentioned last week, I'm back in school, learning how

57:53

to grow and improve Borderline. I am testing new products, including this new newsletter, and I am

57:59

therefore extremely pressed for time.. Podcast production takes an insane amount of time, I can't even tell you.

58:05

And unfortunately is taking me away from doing a lot of

58:08

other things and from writing. So the podcast is going to go biweekly in order to give a little breathing

58:14

room for other projects to emerge.

58:16

I hope you'll stay tuned. In fact, from talking to a lot of you, I know many have a backlog

58:22

of episodes to listen to because these are quite dense and long.

58:26

So giving you a little bit more time as well to get through the archives.

58:31

Let me know what you think. You can always reach out to me at ISA at Borderline pod.com or through

58:37

the Borderlinepod.com website.

58:39

I'm your host, Isabelle Roughol. Music was by Ofshane.

58:42

Borderline is a One Lane Bridge production, and I will